TV above jet tub

[Dave Hill]

Hello Folks,

Today's inspection included a flatscreen TV mounted about 2 feet above the jet tub in the master bath. Sorry no picture - what was I thinking!

Anyway, the power cord goes up and into the wall behind the TV/above tub. Then below the tub are 2 GFCI outlets, one for the TV, one for the pump.

I know this isn't safe, but how would you write it up? I didn't see anything in the IRC. Now if the outlet was installed above the tub, that would be different.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[Dave Hill]

I did have a picture, you can just see the bottom of the TV here.

[Ron Bibler]

Looks like he has his candles and a little yellow duck.

Best

Ron

[MaMa Mount]

And you call yuorself a inspector. Why do you think a outlet would make it allright if it was above the tub. I quess you may think a child playing with that rubber ducky just might not reach up their and touch that tv.

Write it up this way.

Get rid of the TV before it falls in the tub. Those are expensive.

MaMa Mount

[Dave Hill]

OK, so I'm asking for help, I'm not really getting any. Thanks for the comment about the ducks and candles - that was very helpful.

We know it's not safe, but there is not an open outlet near the tub, (which is why I said that would be different - not OK) the TV is plugged into GFCI.

How would you SERIOUSLY write it up w/o sounding like a emotionaly mama?

Thank you.

[Victor DaGraca]

Electronic components and water are not compatible. Although there are no code violations that I can find at this time, a violation of common sense is flagrantly apparent.
Due to the high risk of electrocution, I advise that the television be removed and given to me for safe keeping.

[Gunnar Alquist]

When in doubt, write up what you see and your recommendation. If it were me, I would note that a television is located directly above and within reach of the tub, that it is not a good idea to have electrical appliances within reach of the tub, even if they are connected to a GFCI and that I advise removal of the television. Remember, it does not matter if it is a "code" item. A home inspection is not a code inspection and we can and do make recommendations that are not directly covered in code documentation.

[Dave Hill]

Thank you for the excellent response, it was very helpful.
I (we) know it is wrong, I just couldn't find the proof, or way to convey it. Common sense prevails.

[Ron Bibler]

Can we have somw fun with the candles and a little yellow duck now ?

Best

Ron

[Rick Hurst]

Here you go Ron. You asked! * Nudity warning *

YouTube - Rubber Ducky (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kgT3n3oD2ig)

[Billy Stephens]

Not Installed per Manufacturers Instructions.

No Manufacturer ( of these electronics) Allows this Type of installation of Their Products. that is a code reference. ;)
.

[Dave Hill]

Yes, the report is shipped. Let's have fun with the scented ducks and rubber candles.
Thanks guys!

[Rick Hurst]

Let's have fun with the scented ducks and rubber candles.
Thanks guys!

I don't think so.:D

[Ron Bibler]

Your a team player Dave. just messing with ya... no harm.:D

bEst

RoN

[Dave Hill]

Hey Ron,

I've lived in California, but wasn't familiar with your town, Healdsburg. The Google on the Internets, (as George W. calls it), shows a nice view of the wine country, looks awesome!

[Markus Keller]

There was a discussion about this not too long ago. An HI posted a highend house pic with a plasma or wall sconces or something in the 'tub zone. Didn't Jerry post some NEC code about no electrical items within the 'tub zone'?

[Ron Bibler]

Hey Ron,

I've lived in California, but wasn't familiar with your town, Healdsburg. The Google on the Internets, (as George W. calls it), shows a nice view of the wine country, looks awesome!

Its about an HR No. of San Francisco. nice place to live. ive been hear about 12 years now.

Best

Ron

[Rick Hurst]

Markus,

I believe this was the comment your mentioning that Jerry made.



Quote From Jerry Peck Post:
From the 2008 NEC.
- ARTICLE 406 Receptacles, Cord Connectors, and Attachment Plugs (Caps)
- - 406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
- - - (C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Now, the "within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall" can best be described (explained) in the aspect of lighting fixtures and ceiling fans in that 'even being able to touch a lighting fixture or ceiling fan which is within 3 feet horizontally from the edge of tub to a height of 8 feet high is prohibited', thus, having a receptacle within that bathtub or shower zone is even more hazardous. Meaning, absence of something stating otherwise, I would interpret that the bathtub and shower zone also applies to receptacle outlets.

I'm going to go look in my handbook and see if this is addressed in there.

Added with edit:

The Handbook simply states:

Section 406.8(C) prohibits the installation of receptacles inside bathtub and shower spaces or above their footprint, even if the receptacles are installed in a weatherproof enclosure. Prohibiting such installation helps minimize the use of shavers, radios hair dryers, and so on, in these areas.

The unprotected-line side of GFCI-protected receptacles installed in bathtub and shower spaces could possibly become wet and therefore create a shock hazard by energizing surrounding wet surfaces.

Well, that was not real helpful, nonetheless, *I* would leave it to others to 'approve' those types of locations where the NEC acknowledges a risk exists, *to me* that location is 'not within the realistic realms of safety'.
__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com (http://www.constructionlitigationconsultants.com/) )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com (http://www.eastwestdata.com/) )

[Dave Hill]

I knew the outlet wasn't allowed in that area above the tub, but the outlet for the TV is located by the pump, in a plastic enclosure under the tub. Which, I assume is the "footprint". Only the TV is in reach.
Oh well, we know it's "wrong" and unsafe, so that's how I wrote it as a recommendation. I don't do code inspections, but do like to back up my recommendations with a little research, but I was drawing a blank.
Thanks for the help.

[Billy Stephens]

Not Installed per Manufacturers Instructions.

No Manufacturer ( of these electronics) Allows this Type of installation of Their Products. that is a code reference. ;)
.




I knew the outlet wasn't allowed in that area above the tub, but the outlet for the TV is located by the pump, in a plastic enclosure under the tub. Which, I assume is the "footprint". Only the TV is in reach.
Oh well, we know it's "wrong" and unsafe, so that's how I wrote it as a recommendation. I don't do code inspections, but do like to back up my recommendations with a little research, but I was drawing a blank.
Thanks for the help.


Attachment is taken from Hitachi Installation Instructions.

Sony Has Pictures of The Bath Room. * see Installation environment :D
.

[Richard Stanley]

From Billys post:
Do not put the monitor in the following places.
• Hot places such as near heater, place exposed to the direct rays of the sun.
• A place where the temperature is widely changing.
• Places with soot, dust or high humidity.
• Poor air ventilation place.
• Place near fire.
• A wet place such as bathroom, or shower room.
• Place where you can trip over it.
• Always vibrating or strongly vibrating places.
• Distorted or unstable places.

Perhaps it could be loosely construed to having a light within the safety zone also!!!

Stupidity is not in the SOP.

If Bubba wants the TV there, he's goin ta put it there.

[Jerry Peck]

Not Installed per Manufacturers Instructions.

No Manufacturer ( of these electronics) Allows this Type of installation of Their Products. that is a code reference. ;)


Attachment is taken from Hitachi Installation Instructions.

Sony Has Pictures of The Bath Room. * see Installation environment :D
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/attachments/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/8794d1224041788-tv-above-jet-tub-tv-installation-instructions.pdf







From Billys post:




Do not put the monitor in the following places.
• Hot places such as near heater, place exposed to the direct rays of the sun.
• A place where the temperature is widely changing.
• Places with soot, dust or high humidity.
• Poor air ventilation place.
• Place near fire.
• A wet place such as bathroom, or shower room.
• Place where you can trip over it.
• Always vibrating or strongly vibrating places.
• Distorted or unstable places.

And there is your code reference: Not installed per the listing and labeling, which is: NEC 110.3(B)

From the NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
- ARTICLE 110 Requirements for Electrical Installations
- - 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
- - - (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining and bold are mine)

- E3303.3 Listing and labeling.Electrical materials, components, devices, fixtures and equipment shall be listed for the application, shall bear the label of an approved agency and shall be installed, and used, or both, in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.

[Jerry McCarthy]

If you scraped the finish coat of paint off those over-the-tub TVs you would find they are manufactured by C. Darwin & Co. Inc.
Ah, Healdsburg, California... now a destination town for the weekend wine crowd.

[Jerry Peck]

you would find they are manufactured by C. Darwin & Co. Inc.

And installed by C. Darwin & Son, LLC. (formerly C. Darwin & Sons, LLC.).:D

[John Steinke]

Recepacle location aside ..... TV sets contain all manner of electronic goodies, and hold a lot of electrical energy even when unplugged. For example, a picture tube is essentially a huge battery, charged to 10,000 volts.
Do you really want that above the tub?

While I have seen TV sets specifically designed for this application, that isn't one of them. You might find them built into a Marquis Spa, though.