Joe the Plumber

[Rick Hurst]

After seeing the debates tonight, I have a feeling that "Joe the Plumber" will be able to have the funds to buy that plumbing business he has been working for.:D

GO JOE!

[Ron Bibler]

After seeing the debates tonight, I have a feeling that "Joe the Plumber" will be able to have the funds to buy that plumbing business he has been working for.:D

GO JOE!

Yup. one check for the plumbing company and for Obama...

Im going to start saving so i can give 1/2 my checks to Obama so he can think of was to pass it around. how fun!!! may be he will do a retro thing like Clinton...

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Yep, Joe The Plumber is now worth more than that plumbing business he was going to buy, just start his own, why spend that money buying the other business, EVERYONE now knows "Joe The Plumber" (that should be his businesses name).

GO JOE!

If he has the business sense to make his plumbing business work, he will jump at the national recognition *Joe The Plumber* got and spring board from there. Wonder if he does, or if he would simply of gradually run the other business into the ground not knowing how to run a business and how to take advantage of The Moment.

[Dylan Whitehead]

I missed the debate last night, but it sounds like I should get back into the plumbing business.

[Jerry Peck]

Ron,

Not to worry, you already have your chance ... every man, woman, and child in the US is obligated for $2,300 to help pay for the bailout. Might as well 'start writing', the sooner you do, the sooner we all do, ... the sooner we can buy our way out of this mess. :rolleyes:

We are a consumer driven economy, if the consumer gets stage fright and freezes - not writing those checks, the show is going to be a guaranteed failure. :eek:

The sooner we all spend money, the sooner the bank will lend money. If you've ever claimed you 'have faith', now is the time to practice it ... have faith and start shopping.

This is a list of what I need you to buy me ... :D

[Ron Bibler]

Ron, This is a list of what I need you to buy me ... :D

Sorry Jerry... If Obama gets in then i will have no money to buy you the things you want!!! But look on the bright side you and everybody eles can go see him for he is the Savior! put your faith in him... he has all the cash.... spend spend spend...

I can just see people running to the white house to give him there checks each month... All we like sheep...

As for Joe the plumber. What ever Joe makes Obama told him he was going to ( take it )

I can only hope America understands that.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

As for Joe the plumber. What ever Joe makes Obama told him he was going to ( take it )

I can only hope America understands that.

Ron,

McCain is backing Bush's policies (depends on which side of his mouth he is talking out of, he says whatever he thinks the listener wants to hear, he will say one thing, then turn right around and contradict it), and (getting back to our discussion) Bush's policies ARE ALREADY DOING THAT - if you ain't one of his rich buddies, you ain't a gonna get rich, youse is gonna git poorer.

Now, if you are making $5 mil a year, yeah, McCain's going to help you out, but, if you are making $5 mil a year, you would not be posting here. :p

So, I've saved a seat at the soup line table for you. :rolleyes:

'Cause it ain't gonna really matter much in the short run :eek: ... and in the long run ... McCain's will take what's his, and what's yours, and give it to the needy ... you know, those guys making $5 mil or more, I mean, how on earth are they going to pay for the upkeep on their 5 homes unless they use your money to help them, they are the truly needy ... ask McCain. :rolleyes:

The rest of us are (I guess) supposedly used to not having that much, so we really do not need that much. Think about it, how in the world is The Donald going to fuel up his yacht if not with your dollars? :p

[Kevin Luce]

By the middle of the debate John McCain was calling him his “good friend Joe.” That amused me since Joe never met or talked to McCain or anyone with his campaign (as stated by Joe).

With him in the spot light, does this mean we'll be seeing Joe on "Dancing with the stars"?:D

[Jerry McCarthy]

My Plan: Why do you suppose our political scene has become pornographic? What the voters in our country need to do is to get really pissed and clean out all the whores in DC and elect a benevolent king because both parties have become corrupted. And all this time you thought I was just a moronic west coast wine sipping anarchist?

(I'm sure I'll regret this)

[Ron Bibler]

E-Coast Jerry thats a big paint brush you have. to say that they are one in the same is a joke.

One is looking you in the eye and says im going to take your money and give to some one else.

The other looks you in the eye and say keep your money. you spend it your way.

Im 52 and i can look a man in the eye and known if he is speaking the truth.

I will give you this they both are going to do what they say.

The one. ( Im going to take your money ) and spend it for you.

The other ( You keep your money ) you spend it your way.

This is the age old debate. and for the life of me i just don't get the Socialist Party of America... All you sheep get in line.

Im for less Goverment, Less Taxes,

Any one can paint with a big brush and blur everything.

I see things as black or white. ( no gray )

you are on one side or the other.

Socialist or Conservitive

We may need to do what Joe Biden wanted to do. Split the country:eek: ...


Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

I will give you this they both are going to do what they say.


The one. ( Im going to take your money ) and spend it for you.

Yep, that's what McCain is going to do all right, he just is not telling you that - presuming you are in the under $5 mil per year taxable income bracket. If you are making more than $5 mil income, McCain should be your man.


The other ( You keep your money ) you spend it your way.

Yep, that's what Obama is going to do, and he is telling you that - presuming you are in the under $250 k per year taxable income bracket. If you are making under $250 k income, Obama should be your man.

Now, if you are in the $250 k to $5 mil income bracket ... who knows which one you will be better off being under?

Guess you must be in the $5 mil + income bracket? All I can say is - Wow!, and, Good for you!

But, enough about politics, we should try to keep politics out of these discussions and keep them on track for what the topic is.

[David Banks]

Joe the plumber is not even a Licensed Plumber and not close to buying the company never mind having a profit of over 250,000.
'Joe the Plumber' says he has no plumbing license - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber)

[Jerry McCarthy]

If being socially conscious of my fellow man make one a socialist I guess I be one? :p

[Ron Bibler]

Jerry E. If the Bush tax cut are sunset. all our taxes are going up. mine by over 5K.

Jerry W. Helping your fellow man has nothing to do with being a Socialist.

We are our brothers keeper. But i get up and go to work to feed my family not the bums on the street that is not willing to work.

I train youg men to inspect homes and im always willing to help...
Thats. Conservitive.

Taking from one and giving to another is thats. Socialism.

I will shut up now... Love Me!:D

Best

Ron

[Kevin Luce]

Well, that was an interesting article you posted my old buddy David the home inspector. I also agree with you my old buddy Jerry P the retired home inspector.

Regarding to the first post, I think my old buddy Joe the home inspector is correct. My old buddy Joe the plumber needs to be hire some old Buddy's and start his own business. That way my old buddy Joe the plumber can promote himself and his business to all the old buddies out there.

If I've left out any of my old buddy home inspectors that posted here I apologize. Just a long as you know that you are all my old buddies.;)

I wonder if John McCain thinks of me as his old buddy like he does of Joe the plumber?

[Jerry McCarthy]

And Bush's lack of regulation has cost me over 100K and I don't want any more of it. Seems I recall we where all better off under Willy Wonka? Actually it's not Bush’s fault…. he is not smart enough; it's his loyal conservative henchmen who have never met a billionaire they didn't suck up to.
Now I'll shut up and go away............................ :eek:

[David Banks]

Joe the Plumber does not like old taxes either. He is no longer doing interviews.
Jonathan Martin's Blog: Joe the Plumber: No new taxes -- and no old ones, either - Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/Joe_the_Plumber_No_new_taxes__and_no_old_oneseithe r.html)

[Jerry Peck]

Actually it's not Bush’s fault…. he is not smart enough;


Then there is Palin, who is versed in foreign affairs because she can almost see Russia across the water. :rolleyes:

And she is knowledgeable about agribusiness because she likes cows. :eek:

And those smarts would only be one heart beat away from being Bush III, only dumber, if that is possible.

Sorry, I said we should cut out the politics ... wait, that was humor, not politics ... :cool:

[Ron Bibler]

Jerry and Jerry. This went right over your heads.

If the Bush tax cut are sunset. all our taxes are going up.
mine by over 5K.

Now i Will shut up...

Best

Ron

[David Banks]

'Joe the plumber' and Obama’s tax plan - The Debates - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27221645/)

Turns out, would-be small-business buyer likely wouldn't be affected at all

[brian schmitt]

e c jerry and w c jerry,
i can't believe it but i totally agree with yous guys on this issue:D

[Jack Feldmann]

I know I was doing a lot better when we had the moral cripple in the white house.
The last 8 years has cost me a bunch of money. I see McCain as just more of the same, regardless of how much of a maverick he says he is.

Here is some interesting stats about the proposed tax plans (What someone earns and what they get under the proposed tax plans)
Sales clerk earns $25K McCain +$94 Obama +$860
Teacher $50K McCain +$446 Obama +$1114
Lawyer $250K McCain +$7295 Obama +$1591
Invest. Banker $750K McCain +11621 Obama -$19745
CEO $1M McCain +$91286 Obama -$175117
Source: Tax Policy Center

This tells a lot about their tax plans.

[Ted Menelly]

Palin for President

She is better looking

[Rick Hurst]

My Plan: Why do you suppose our political scene has become pornographic? What the voters in our country need to do is to get really pissed and clean out all the whores in DC and elect a benevolent king because both parties have become corrupted. And all this time you thought I was just a moronic west coast wine sipping anarchist?

(I'm sure I'll regret this)


You like your wine, I like the occasional cold beer or a shot of Tekillya.

But I can get along with you. :D

rick

[Rick Hurst]

Palin for President

She is better looking

Ted,

No one arguing with you on that one. But do we want another Bush in the White House?

[Ted Menelly]

Ted,

No one arguing with you on that one. But do we want another Bush in the White House?

Just send some raisers and shaving cream to the White house

[Rick Hurst]

RAZORS TED RAZORS :D

LOL

rick

[Michael Thomas]

So:

1) He Makes 40K a year (per his divorce papers)
2) He's not a licensed plumber
3) He does not pay his taxes
4) He originally registered as Natural Law Party

and

5) His name is not Joe

--------------------

Meanwhile, McCain's campaign is too stupid and/or ignorant to vet him using public records and resources.

--------------------

Increasingly, McCain reminds me of that old song:

"Who put the benzedrine
in Mrs. Murphy's Ovaltine?"

[John Ghent]

[QUOTE=J
Yep, that's what Obama is going to do, and he is telling you that - presuming you are in the under $250 k per year taxable income bracket. If you are making under $250 k income, Obama should be your man.


Now Jerry, (and I am not backing one or the other here,) If you are retired and get all your income from dividends and cap gains then that becomes a lie. He is going to raise the rates on both dividends and Cap gains to 28 to 32% from the present 15%. He may not raise the taxes on earned income but we all do not live on earned income.

[Scott Patterson]

No matter who gets elected we will get screwed. All we can hope and pray for is that we do not have a democratic House, Senate and President.

[Jerry McCarthy]

I moved all my capital investments into a no-load stock equity fund in Katmandu, so me worry? Hell no – not any more ! BTW, what's a MILF and is Sarah one?
PS: Son of BTW, here’s a photo of my Katmandu financial advisors

[David Banks]

I moved all my capital investments into a no-load stock equity fund in Katmandu, so me worry? Hell no – not any more ! BTW, what's a MILF and is Sarah one?
PS: Son of BTW, here’s a photo of my Katmandu financial advisors

Monkeys here Monkeys there.

[Billy Stephens]

No matter who gets elected we will get screwed. All we can hope and pray for is that we do not have a democratic House, Senate and President.

Yep!!!

Madam Speaker Pelosi's announcement after Taking Control that there,

WAS GOING to BE BIG CHANGES.

If this is the type of Changes She was referring to I can't wait to see the What's Next . :rolleyes:

[Ted Menelly]

RAZORS TED RAZORS :D

LOL

rick

Rick

Just a play on words in this case :)

[Ted Menelly]

I moved all my capital investments into a no-load stock equity fund in Katmandu, so me worry? Hell no – not any more ! BTW, what's a MILF and is Sarah one?
PS: Son of BTW, here’s a photo of my Katmandu financial advisors

I thought I was being a little to blunt :confused:

[John Arnold]

...BTW, what's a MILF and is Sarah one
...

This is not the forum for that kind of talk. Mother I'd like to F"ool-around-with".

[Billy Stephens]

Just send some raisers and shaving cream to the White house


RAZORS TED RAZORS :D

LOL

rick


Rick

Just a play on words in this case :)

That would Be Magic Shave, can't be all bumpy up in the House.;)
.

[Kevin Luce]

I think the K is missing from his name. Joke, the want to be plumber/owner. Why did John McCain even bring him up? Did his people look into this at all? Are they that desperate that they take basic information and run with it?

I don't think Joke, the want to be plumber/owner is going to get his own business off the ground from the stuff that I have read.

Joke, do what the rest of the plumbers do and get educated/licensed.:mad:

[Markus Keller]

Everyone in McCain's camp must be so out of touch. I knew Joe the Plumber was a fraud before they were done talking. So pathetic.

[Jerry Peck]

I suspect that Joe the Plumber is wishing he had never had his 15 minutes of fame, not considering what has been found out about him.

Joe, hiding your head in the same only exposes your butt more.

[Rick Hurst]

McCain vs Obama rally. :D
On television today a Democratic operative pointed out that when Obama
holds a rally 25,000-30,000 people show up, whereas when McCain holds
one he only draws 10,000-15,000. The Republican spokesman replied,
'That's because McCain's supporters are at work.'

[Kevin Luce]

McCain vs Obama rally. :D
On television today a Democratic operative pointed out that when Obama
holds a rally 25,000-30,000 people show up, whereas when McCain holds
one he only draws 10,000-15,000. The Republican spokesman replied,
'That's because McCain's supporters are at work.'

At work?:confused: Spending our money on their retreats.

[Scott Patterson]

As I said, no matter who is elected we are screwed.

It all depends on the House, Senate and the Cabinet that is selected. Really the President has very little power when you think about the entire process. Our forefathers made sure of this when this country was formed.

We can talk about Joe and make fun of him all we want, but in all reality he is really more like the average person or even the average home inspector. Before my move I had sales high enough that I would fall in to the "Share the Wealth" tax that we might see. Now with my income and my wife's income we will be right at the "Share the Wealth" tax. Do I want to share my hard earned wealth in the form of a higher tax? Not a chance. We have worked hard for what we have and have earned.

I really don't like either candidate, but what choice do I have. I hope that they will start naming their cabinet choices soon, this will help me decide on the direction I will go.

[Jerry Peck]

Before my move I had sales high enough that I would fall in to the "Share the Wealth" tax that we might see.

Scott,

That's the problem, people think "sales" and the term is "income".

Your $250 "sales" probably equated to less than $150 "income" after deductions and everything else a business person can deduct. Which would have put you well UNDER that tax limit.

Unless you meant "income" and not "sales".

[Jerry Peck]

McCain vs Obama rally. :D
On television today a Democratic operative pointed out that when Obama
holds a rally 25,000-30,000 people show up, whereas when McCain holds
one he only draws 10,000-15,000. The Republican spokesman replied,
'That's because McCain's supporters are at work.'

That's also because it would be 35,000-45,000 at Obama's rally ... except that many of his supporters are WORKING two jobs and could not get the time off.

:p

And, as Kevin said, all those Obama supporters are the ones really making the money for those few McCain supporters, who are out spending the money instead of putting it back into the business. :rolleyes:

[Ted Menelly]

Its all irrelevant.

McCain, Obama or Obama, McCain. No matter which way one goes we will still be in trouble for some time.

Being neither for Obama or McCain and trying to way the difference my personal opinion is McCain being the more centrist candidate I believe he would actually do the more good.

I came from THE democratic state and seeing what an all democratic society is really all about I am not quite sure that what I witnessed for 36 years in Mass why anyone would want an all democratic Government.

In Mass you had folks with money and those with out. In the many years since I left Mass it has become more of some low income, many middle income and some filthy stinking rich. I would certainly like to see it stay more toward the last couple decades than the decades before that.

We truly do need a more central type government. No extreme in either direction. It might not be McCain that is needed but it is certainly not Obama. McCain has always been more the outsider in the republican party. Obama is the true definition of Democrat.

Watch out what you folks wish for. You might just get it.

You will see a very flat economy if Obama gets in. Clinton (the original) would be better than the Obama camp.

One more opinion that I jokingly expressed was that I do believe the best President out of the 2 runners for Pres and the 2 runners for Vice Pres, are you ready?????

Palin. She is the most centrist than the other three. I do believe that she would be the one to build the strongest middle class there has been in some time.

Yeah, yeah. I don't have any other choices but the 4 going for the big tickets. She is just the choice of those 4.

[Jerry Peck]

Its all irrelevant.


Yeah, yeah. I don't have any other choices but the 4 going for the big tickets. She is just the choice of those 4.


She is the one most off the radar, so far off the radar that she thinks being close to Russia gives her some foreign affairs experience.

With her being just one heart beat away from the Presidency, and with this being Halloween, this will truly be a very scary Halloween time until we know the results of the election - hopefully, those Palin buttons will become valuable for 'having been the first women Vice Presidential Candidate of the Republican Party', and not have anything else to do with who was actually elected. :cool: :p

[Ted Menelly]

She is the one most off the radar, so far off the radar that she thinks being close to Russia gives her some foreign affairs experience.

With her being just one heart beat away from the Presidency, and with this being Halloween, this will truly be a very scary Halloween time until we know the results of the election - hopefully, those Palin buttons will become valuable for 'having been the first women Vice Presidential Candidate of the Republican Party', and not have anything else to do with who was actually elected. :cool: :p

Governor Reagan, Governor Bush, Governor Clinton

Need I say more

Do you really want someone in there that has already been in the Washington garbage for years. Do you want their advisers to be from past parties that screwed thing's up. Do you really want Obama in there or McCain for that matter.

Reagan, movie star. Bush, rich family, President for dad. Clinton, didn't do a bad job but had a lot of help from the fake dot com enterprises. Tell me what those three Presidents that actually had a clue other than "how it works in Washington" Please don't give me the George Bush thing. We see what his experience did. Oh yeah, Ronny, credited for the end of the cold war. The cold war ended because the Soviet Union could not afford it anymore. Look at the debt after Ronny.

Palin. Someone that actually tried and did somewhat achieve good for most of the folks in Alaska (even though there are only about 100 folks that live there) . The little folks, the middle class and the big Corps. She was not for just one class of folks. She actually did try and achieve a little for all involved. It did not appear that she was just another Republican.

Again. Just a choice of the 4 Running

[Jerry Peck]

It did not appear that she was just another Republican.


I agree with that, but only because she is a more corrupt than "just another Republican". Her actions limited to her limited government roles so far indicate that she will be "cleaning house" (monetarily speaking) from the government pocket book to her pocket book - and remember, the 'government pocket book' is also 'your pocket book'. :eek:

[Billy Stephens]

I agree with that, but only because she is a more corrupt than "just another Republican". Her actions limited to her limited government roles so far indicate that she will be "cleaning house" (monetarily speaking) from the government pocket book to her pocket book - and remember, the 'government pocket book' is also 'your pocket book'. :eek:
.
Kind of like these Cities? Commentary: The poverty of Democrats' ideas for cities - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/20/beck.cities/index.html)
.
Check crime rates as well.Democrat run Cites lead the highest crime and murder rates (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2085615/posts) :eek:
.

[Ron Bibler]

O.K. Im in. was trying to stay out. but they keep draging me back in...

I think old joe the plumber i just like each one on this board in one way or another. this guy is getting slam-buck-raw. for what? because he ask one Q. i saw Obama on the TV tube bashing the plumber. For what ?asking a Q. If it was you stand at the event and you had a chance what Q. would ask?

Me i think the same as Joe the plumber did...

just think a Dude like Obama just may be the next President of the USA slams a plumber for asking a Q.

Obama is a jerk. Plumber, Carpenter, HI, Roofer, he is not your friend...

Best

Ron

[Nick Ostrowski]

Jerry and Jerry. This went right over your heads.

If the Bush tax cut are sunset. all our taxes are going up.
mine by over 5K.

Now i Will shut up...

Best

Ron

Nobody wants to pay more in taxes but many want to see the natiomal deficit reduced. You can only make so many governmental budget cutbacks. The rest has to come from the taxpaying public. It sucks but that's the way it is. Besides, how else are we going to pay for all the money being flushed down the toilet in Iraq every month and how else are we going to pay for the $700+ billion bailout package which congress insisted needed to go through to save us from fire and brimstone?

Like Scott said, we're probably screwed no matter who gets elected. But I think Obama at least gives the country more of a chance to start feeling good about itself again.

[Kevin Luce]

O.K. Im in. was trying to stay out. but they keep draging me back in...

I think old joe the plumber i just like each one on this board in one way or another. this guy is getting slam-buck-raw. for what? because he ask one Q. i saw Obama on the TV tube bashing the plumber. For what ?asking a Q. If it was you stand at the event and you had a chance what Q. would ask?

Me i think the same as Joe the plumber did...

just think a Dude like Obama just may be the next President of the USA slams a plumber for asking a Q.

Obama is a jerk. Plumber, Carpenter, HI, Roofer, he is not your friend...

Best

Ron

There is one big difference between Joe the plumber and myself. I'm not liar. He walked up to Obama and told him that he is a plumber. He is looking at buying a plumbing business and that the company makes $250,000 or a little more. Then he informed Obama that he would being paying that 3% more with his tax plan. Besides Joe the plumber telling Obama that his name is Joe (which is his middle name), everything else was a lie.

All the other plumbers in that area had and are having to pay the price to be a plumber but for some reason Joe doesn't think he needs to.

He lied soo much to Obama in such a short period of time so that tells me that he can easily lie to anyone else and he likely does. That makes me not trust him when it comes to anything else he has to say.

So please do not compare him to me.

[Ron Bibler]

Nobody wants to pay more in taxes but many want to see the natiomal deficit reduced. You can only make so many governmental budget cutbacks. The rest has to come from the taxpaying public. It sucks but that's the way it is. Besides, how else are we going to pay for all the money being flushed down the toilet in Iraq every month and how else are we going to pay for the $700+ billion bailout package which congress insisted needed to go through to save us from fire and brimstone?

Like Scott said, we're probably screwed no matter who gets elected. But I think Obama at least gives the country more of a chance to start feeling good about itself again.


Dude. Mr Oboma wants to spend another $ TRL and 1/2 more. with no cut in spending. I don't want to just Feel good. I feel just fine now. I don't want a jerk for PRES. that will Pick on a plumber. I was a union carpenter 226 in portland OR. I have done plumbing, stucco, roofing just like most on this board.

I love that Feel good crap... Obama would never sit down with a plumber, HI, Carpenter or Roofer. I known a lot of plumbers that make more then $250K I do inspection for them:( . Hit them with more tax you hit me with more tax...:mad: Mr Feel good.

Best

Ron

[Billy Stephens]

Well as Long as I Feel Good about it---------:rolleyes:
.

[Kevin Luce]

I known lost of plumbers that make more then $250K I do inspection for them:( .
Best

Ron
Wow, I need to move by you. In chicago, a level three plumber makes up to $70K. That would require them to work a lot of overtime for them to reach that $250K

Salary.com’s Salary Wizard™- Do you know what you're worth? (http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_salaryresults.asp?hdJobTitle=Plumber%20III&hdJobCode=SC16000006&&joblevelcode=3&op=salswz_psr&jobfamilycode=30&txtKeyword=plumber&hdOmniNarrowDesc=Construction%20and%20Installation&hdZipCode=60652&hdOmniTotalJobsFound=3&pagefrom=selectjob&hdJobCategory=SC02&hdGeoLocation=Chicago,%20IL%2060652&countertype=0&hdJSBoolDisplayAdvertisement=&totaljoblistnum=3&hdAjaxKeyword=plumber&hdAjaxKeywordWithOR=#plumber#&joblevelcode=3&hdCurrentPage=1&hdNarrowDesc=Construction%20and%20Installation&hdSearchByOption=0&hdLocationOption=0&hdViewAllRecords=0&hdAjaxDisplaySection1=1&hdAjaxDisplaySection2=0&hdKeyword=plumber&rdbSearchByOption=0&hdStateMetro=34&jobcounter=1&hdSortBy=0)

[Ron Bibler]

The plumbers i known have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them...

When they buy new building they call mew to inspect them.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

The plumbers i known have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them...


Let's check your math, there ... (no wonder there is a communication problem)

Plumbers (plural) have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

Each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

Ron, that one heck of a lot of plumbers. :rolleyes:

[Rick Hurst]

I think Ron means that the Plumbing Contractors (Owners of the business) have 15-20 employees.

250K is not that unrealistic amount of money to earn as a Plumbing Contractor. Not in these parts anyway, if your the owner of the company. I'm not talking about the part-time guy either.

rick

[Ron Bibler]

Let's check your math, there ... (no wonder there is a communication problem)

Plumbers (plural) have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

Each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

And each of those 12 to 20 plumbers have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them ...

Ron, that one heck of a lot of plumbers. :rolleyes:

Rick has it.

You have trip over a little thing. Jerry. and over look the point.

I known a lot of Plumbing contractors that make more then $250K.
I do inspection for them:( . Hit them with more tax you hit me/all of us with more tax...:mad: Mr Feel good/Jerry.

Have a great week weekend.

Best

Ron

[Billy Stephens]

Joe The plumber's cousin Ralph The Plumber. :D
*the kinder, gentler more aesthetically pleasing Plumber.
.

[Ted Menelly]

Shoot, half the time I was contracting I only had a half dozen people working for me and a variety of subcontractors. My take was a quarter mill with my small company. After material and labor was paid. 250,000.00is a fairly easy take.

Whats that called now. A third, a third and a third (materials, labor, profit). You bust your backside and you can make it.

A plumber with 20 employees is making some serious money if he has some excellent men. Shoot, half the plumbers I have known their men were working 10 plus hours a day. What do you pay for having a plumber at your house for an hour??????? or should that be $$$$$$$$

[Ron Bibler]

Shoot, half the time I was contracting I only had a half dozen people working for me and a variety of subcontractors. My take was a quarter mill with my small company. After material and labor was paid. 250,000.00is a fairly easy take.

Whats that called now. A third, a third and a third (materials, labor, profit). You bust your backside and you can make it.

A plumber with 20 employees is making some serious money if he has some excellent men. Shoot, half the plumbers I have known their men were working 10 plus hours a day. What do you pay for having a plumber at your house for an hour??????? or should that be $$$$$$$$

Say Ted he is not talking about your take home pay. hes talking about your total sales. $ 250 is a dance for most contractors. with just 2 or 5 men.

Best

Ron

[Rick Hurst]

The 250K number of what I understand is not for gross sales of a business but it (250K) is the "net" pay on your personal income tax.

Your company could make a million bucks but if you only paid yourself 250K, then your taxes would not be affected.

It is not per the actual company earnings.

rick

[Nick Ostrowski]

Dude. Mr Oboma wants to spend another $ TRL and 1/2 more. with no cut in spending. I don't want to just Feel good. I feel just fine now. I don't want a jerk for PRES. that will Pick on a plumber. I was a union carpenter 226 in portland OR. I have done plumbing, stucco, roofing just like most on this board.

I love that Feel good crap... Obama would never sit down with a plumber, HI, Carpenter or Roofer. I known a lot of plumbers that make more then $250K I do inspection for them:( . Hit them with more tax you hit me with more tax...:mad: Mr Feel good.

Best

Ron

Don't hold back Ron. Tell us what you really think ;).

You may not like him but you might want to get used to saying it now before it becomes a likely reality on 11/5.............President Elect Obama.

[Billy Stephens]

.
likely reality on 11/5.............President Elect Obama.
.
....

[David Banks]

Its all irrelevant.

McCain, Obama or Obama, McCain. No matter which way one goes we will still be in trouble for some time.

Being neither for Obama or McCain and trying to way the difference my personal opinion is McCain being the more centrist candidate I believe he would actually do the more good.

I came from THE democratic state and seeing what an all democratic society is really all about I am not quite sure that what I witnessed for 36 years in Mass why anyone would want an all democratic Government.

In Mass you had folks with money and those with out. In the many years since I left Mass it has become more of some low income, many middle income and some filthy stinking rich. I would certainly like to see it stay more toward the last couple decades than the decades before that.

We truly do need a more central type government. No extreme in either direction. It might not be McCain that is needed but it is certainly not Obama. McCain has always been more the outsider in the republican party. Obama is the true definition of Democrat.

Watch out what you folks wish for. You might just get it.

You will see a very flat economy if Obama gets in. Clinton (the original) would be better than the Obama camp.

One more opinion that I jokingly expressed was that I do believe the best President out of the 2 runners for Pres and the 2 runners for Vice Pres, are you ready?????

Palin. She is the most centrist than the other three. I do believe that she would be the one to build the strongest middle class there has been in some time.

Yeah, yeah. I don't have any other choices but the 4 going for the big tickets. She is just the choice of those 4.

Ted. What the hell are you talking about. I do not know where you grew up but the town I grew up in and most Suburban towns were mostly middle class and we all knew where the poor areas were. 1-2 streets in town.
I do not even remember a lot of rich people.
Everyone loves to bash MA but it is all ignorant rhetoric. I have been all over this country and we are no different. There are cities, suburbs and real rural areas in western MA that are no different than any other place.
Being New England it is actually a very conservative place in some ways. People are very frugal and get outside the city and they like their guns as much as anyone.

[Ron Bibler]

Look i feel fine now. and if Obama is the man. i will feel just fine.

We will see.

I just stand on what i think is correct about the guy. I don"t like him. he picks on a plumber and trashs him on national TV.
and people sit back a say hes great and makes them feel good.

That just blows me away...

It is amazing to see very smart people look the other way at this guy.

( They shall call good evil and evil good )

Best

Ron

[Kevin Luce]

If somebody on this chat would go up to Obama or McCain and tell one of them that they are a home inspector in a licensed state and they plan on buying a home inspection company that makes $250K a year and we found out that it was a complete lie, I think most of us would call him out. Then if he really did do home inspections without being licensed in that licensed state, many of us would be on his case if not doing more.

Poor Joe? I don't think so.

[Rick Hurst]

Kevin,

What your missing though is in this great country one can buy a Plumbing Company or a Home Inspection company and not be Licensed to actually perform either job.

You just go to be ready to share the wealth. :rolleyes:

rick

[Ted Menelly]

Ted. What the hell are you talking about. I do not know where you grew up but the town I grew up in and most Suburban towns were mostly middle class and we all knew where the poor areas were. 1-2 streets in town.
I do not even remember a lot of rich people.
Everyone loves to bash MA but it is all ignorant rhetoric. I have been all over this country and we are no different. There are cities, suburbs and real rural areas in western MA that are no different than any other place.
Being New England it is actually a very conservative place in some ways. People are very frugal and get outside the city and they like their guns as much as anyone.

David

That was not very nice of you. I am in my mid fifties and I was talking of decades ago. This is what I said

"In Mass you had folks with money and those with out. In the many years since I left Mass it has become more of some low income, many middle income and some filthy stinking rich. I would certainly like to see it stay more toward the last couple decades than the decades before that".

I grew up in the south shore of Mass for 36 years. It was seriously all democratic for a good portion of my younger years.

I guess it is relative to what you call middle class. To be middle class in Mass nowadays you have to be able to afford a 400,000.00 home. Six years ago my daughter bought a home for 435,000 and sold it for 485,000. This was a 1500 79 year old home. It was a postage stamp size lot in Medford. The house even had issues.

Please tell me what income level you have to be at to buy a 485,000 dollar home. Tell me where the loading dock guy that has a wife that works in walmart lives. Or what chance they have of buying a 450,000.00 home. So much for a Democratic state looking out for the little guy. Between the two of them working their income isn't to bad but what chance do they have for a chance of home ownership.

I personally made a lot of money in Mass. Of course that was when there was not a down turn in the economy. Which there was once a year.

Not picking on your state David. It is a beautiful place. Ocean right there, mountains to the west and north. Rolling winding roads and some towns still around with quaint little squares.

But I would never move back there for construction or home inspection. Way to many ups and downs.

Don't take it to heart Dave.

What is the income level needed to buy almost a half million dollar home and still eat????

Oh yeah, as a little kid in Abington Mass I was poor. I went into middle level and then to almost upper level income. I have been in all stages of the income level. Again it is all relative to what one depicts middle income, both then and now. My thinking of middle income leans toward the side of upper middle income. Poor is living week to week or worse.

Why does everyone get so personal ?

[Jerry Peck]

The plumbers i known have 12 to 20 plumbers working for them...


I think Ron means that the Plumbing Contractors (Owners of the business) have 15-20 employees.


Rick has it.

You have trip over a little thing.

Ron,

No, I did not trip over it, I knew what you *meant to say*, however, I could only respond based on what you *did say*.

I was simply pointing out that what you say cannot be regarded as fact, not even the other things you say ... such as about Obama being bad and McCain being good ... you simply type what you want to type and believer what you want to believe, and saying one thing then meaning something else, well, it goes with your free speech.

Go for it.

I can't believe that Joe the Plumber is still hawking his 15 minutes of fame, knowing that whatever he has said has been a lie ... wait ... I can believe it ... he is not interested in the truth, he only wants his 15 minutes of fame. :rolleyes: And he's got Palin and McCain using him to represent his lies and their lies, kind of befitting, if you ask me (and you did not ask, but I answered anyway :p ). :eek:

[David Banks]

David

That was not very nice of you. I am in my mid fifties and I was talking of decades ago. This is what I said

"In Mass you had folks with money and those with out. In the many years since I left Mass it has become more of some low income, many middle income and some filthy stinking rich. I would certainly like to see it stay more toward the last couple decades than the decades before that".

I grew up in the south shore of Mass for 36 years. It was seriously all democratic for a good portion of my younger years.

I guess it is relative to what you call middle class. To be middle class in Mass nowadays you have to be able to afford a 400,000.00 home. Six years ago my daughter bought a home for 435,000 and sold it for 485,000. This was a 1500 79 year old home. It was a postage stamp size lot in Medford. The house even had issues.

Please tell me what income level you have to be at to buy a 485,000 dollar home. Tell me where the loading dock guy that has a wife that works in walmart lives. Or what chance they have of buying a 450,000.00 home. So much for a Democratic state looking out for the little guy. Between the two of them working their income isn't to bad but what chance do they have for a chance of home ownership.

I personally made a lot of money in Mass. Of course that was when there was not a down turn in the economy. Which there was once a year.

Not picking on your state David. It is a beautiful place. Ocean right there, mountains to the west and north. Rolling winding roads and some towns still around with quaint little squares.

But I would never move back there for construction or home inspection. Way to many ups and downs.

Don't take it to heart Dave.

What is the income level needed to buy almost a half million dollar home and still eat????

Oh yeah, as a little kid in Abington Mass I was poor. I went into middle level and then to almost upper level income. I have been in all stages of the income level. Again it is all relative to what one depicts middle income, both then and now. My thinking of middle income leans toward the side of upper middle income. Poor is living week to week or worse.

Why does everyone get so personal ?

Not personal. Just think it is not good for the country when blanket false statements are made for your political gain.
I grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's in central MA. I agree with the ups and downs. But it has nothing to do with Democrats. This area has been growing since the Pilgrims. Not a lot of land left,hence the cost of housing.
You moved to Texas-lots of land cheap. People are migrating to warmer less expensive areas. Good for you. But do not give credit to Republicans. Nothing to do with it.
I do not know where your daughter bought her home but I live 20 miles west of Boston great area, great schools, one of the highest income areas in the country and you can get a decent sized colonial for 485,000.
But yes it is expensive here. Supply and demand.
No hard feelings I enjoy your post.
Peace, love and Ti Dye!

[Ron Bibler]

Not personal. Just think it is not good for the country when blanket false statements are made for your political gain.
I grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's in central MA. I agree with the ups and downs. But it has nothing to do with Democrats. This area has been growing since the Pilgrims. Not a lot of land left,hence the cost of housing.
You moved to Texas-lots of land cheap. People are migrating to warmer less expensive areas. Good for you. But do not give credit to Republicans. Nothing to do with it.
I do not know where your daughter bought her home but I live 20 miles west of Boston great area, great schools, one of the highest income areas in the country and you can get a decent sized colonial for 485,000.
But yes it is expensive here. Supply and demand.
No hard feelings I enjoy your post.
Peace, love and Ti Dye!

Ti Dye! sucks...:D Sorry i just can't stand that stuff.

Its like disco. :cool: sucks.

Best

Ron

[Rick Hurst]

Ron, the Boogey Man.
You know you loved that disco.

I bet you have a number of those silk shirts back then. :D

rick

YouTube - BEE GEES Staying' alive 1977 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPdzsL0kMQ)

[Victor DaGraca]

Imagine pissing off a whole political party to the extent that they give you a colonoscopy.
Since when does a political party have the constitutional authority to investigate a private citizen?

Forget Joe the plumber and concentrate on Osama's statement.

"We're going to spread the wealth around"

Two words.... Marx and Lenin.

Go ahead and raise corporate taxes.
How're you going to collect when they move to Ireland?

[Billy Stephens]

Ron, the Boogey Man.
You know you loved that disco.

I bet you have a number of those silk shirts back then. :D

rick

YouTube - BEE GEES Staying' alive 1977 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPdzsL0kMQ)
.
And a Few Pair of These. ;)
.

[Kevin Luce]

I feel McCain using Joe the so call plumber to try to get ahead is as bad as picking Palin as a running mate. Just another lier.

Here's more screw-ups by Palin.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10)

[Billy Stephens]

I feel McCain using Joe the so call plumber to try to get ahead is as bad as picking Palin as a running mate. Just another lier.

Here is another screw up by Palin.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10)
.
Kevin,

WOW! $21 G's sense 2006 Just so the Woman can take her kids ( and watch them ) just to do The State of Alaska's Business as Governor. :rolleyes:

I don''t think you want to go the lair route. ;)
.

[Kevin Luce]

.
Kevin,

WOW! $21 G's sense 2006 Just so the Woman can take her kids ( and watch them ) just to do The State of Alaska's Business as Governor. :rolleyes:

I don''t think you want to go the lair route. ;)
.

Palin should have higher standards than home inspectors. If I remember right, ASHI member can't do anything that has the appearance of doing something wrong.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10)

"On Aug. 6, three weeks before Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain chose Palin his running mate, and after Alaska reporters asked for the records, Palin ordered changes to previously filed expense reports for her daughters' travel.":(

[Jerry Peck]

Forget Joe the plumber and concentrate on Osama's statement.

"We're going to spread the wealth around"

First, Victor, not much of what you say on this is to be believed, heck, you cannot even get the name right. :rolleyes: :p :D

Forget that Joe The Plumber was another of McCain's bad decisions?

Regarding the latter: "spread the wealth around" ... That is EXACTLY what we have been doing in this country since it was founded - for those who do not know or recognize it, it is called "taxes".

What do you think got us out of The Great Depression? Businesses taking the reins and pulling together to make it work?

What? You laughed so hard you puked?

It was that Big Bad Government which held steady and pulled this country around, by "spreading the wealth around".

Poor people in poverty can't BUY anything, so if you don't PAY PEOPLE WELL, you will not have many customers to buy your stuff. If you do not have many customers, you don't sell much. If you don't sell much, you don't need anyone to make it for you. If you don't need anyone to make it for you, you will not have anyone who can buy it from you. Wait, isn't that where we started?

Spreading the wealth makes everyone wealthier, or at least those who understand the process.

If you had all the money in the world, what could you buy? Think about it before you answer. You know you can't sell anything, no one has any money, you have it all. Answer: Nothing. Because as soon as you bought something you would no longer have all the money in the world. The only way to prosper is to "spread the wealth around".

By the way, for those of you who think Obama is going to "spread the wealth around" and McCain is not ... the difference in their tax plan for those over $250k per year income is the difference between 36% and 39% ... 3%. McCain is going to "spread the wealth around" too.

Let's say your taxable income is $250,000

McCain is going to "spread the wealth" around to the tune of $90,000!

Obama is only going to add another $7,500 to that.

The difference is McCain will give it to his buddies making $5 mil and over, and Obama will give to a lot of different people.

Again, if you cannot buy something, someone else cannot sell it ... ring any bells? Business been down lately?

If they cannot buy it, you ain't gonna sell it. You are looking that horse dead in the mouth right now, and you can see how dead it is getting, with the forecasters only predicting it will get worse before it gets better.

[Billy Stephens]

Palin should have higher standards than home inspectors. If I remember right, ASHI member can't do anything that has the appearance of doing something wrong.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel_10)

"On Aug. 6, three weeks before Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain chose Palin his running mate, and after Alaska reporters asked for the records, Palin ordered changes to previously filed expense reports for her daughters' travel.":(
.
Quote from your link.

"The Palins began charging the state for commercial flights after the governor kept a campaign promise to sell a jet bought by her predecessor."

Private jet upkeep ( maintenance ) estimated @ $5,000 per month. Flight time ( Private jet) estimated @ $ 1,500 per flight hour.

24 months maintenance @ $5,000 ( low because it would be held by State Workers) $120,000.

100 Flight hours ( low for a Governor of any State.) = $150,000.

Payment on a Private Jet ( Guess??) $250,000 a month X 24 months = $6 million.

Estimated Cost to The State of Alaska to keep and maintain a private Jet for discretionary use of The Governor estimated @ $ 3.1 million dollars per year.

You run The Numbers on Flying Commercial ( the whole family ).

And This article is saying She may have cheated The State of $21,000 to bring her own children along on State Functions? :rolleyes:

Being a Home Inspector you are aware anyone can allege anything about You. ;)

[Michael Larson]

What do you think got us out of The Great Depression? Businesses taking the reins and pulling together to make it work?

Jerry, most of know that WW2 is what got us out of the Great depression.

Maybe you're too young to remember.:p

[Ron Bibler]

It was the war Jerry that got the country working. it was not the Big Bad Government which held steady and pulled this country around, by "spreading the wealth around".

The big bad Goverment got in the way. By taxing the people and put controls on the people. they would not let the small business man run his company the way he wanted to.

One thinks one way

And Obama thinks even more to the L. of center like Marx and Lenin.

Obama just want to incress taxes and put controls on us.

I know some will just (BLUR) the facts and say they all want to
"spread the wealth around"

At this time we need the goverment to just get out of the way...
Keep things just the way they are and the people will find a way.

We got out from under one KING...200 plus years ago And now some want to go back to the KING.

I say no thanks.

Best

Ron

[Kevin Luce]

I just don't understand when somebody does something that is not required, why can't they ask themselves if what they are about to do has the appearance of doing something wrong. If so, then don't do it.

"On Aug. 6, three weeks before Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain chose Palin his running mate, and after Alaska reporters asked for the records, Palin ordered changes to previously filed expense reports for her daughters' travel.":(

This has the appearance that she did something wrong. I guess we'll see where this will lead.

Just to let you know, even though McCain was sucking up to Bush for a long time, I thought the true McCain was going to come out and I was ready to vote for him at the beginning. He screwed up so much in so many ways that I can't do it now.

When it comes to the great things each has to say about their plans on oil and the economy, who cares! Like it's going to happen. :rolleyes:

[Billy Stephens]

When it comes to what each has to say about oil and the economy, who cares! Like it's going to happen. :rolleyes:
.
It's going to be rough for The Country no matter who wins. :(
.

[Ted Menelly]

.
It's going to be rough for The Country no matter who wins. :(
.


Billy

It already is bad. I have the top of page paid for spot on google (first time I ever paid for positioning, monthly deal, no contract, we will see if it helps). I am number 4 or 5 next to the google map. I am #1 or 2 in the organic search in google for Fort Worth Home Inspectors. In 5 days I just got one call today for an inspection when ever the power gets turned on and I just got an email for a 16000 squ ft apartment building. Don't know if I will get either one of them. This is coming from a guy that just had a fantastic year until a month ago.

Yep. I think the bad times are already here.

Keep your fingers crossed for me for the apartment building.

[Billy Stephens]

Keep your fingers crossed for me for the apartment building.
.
;).....
.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, most of know that WW2 is what got us out of the Great depression.


It was the war Jerry that got the country working. it was not the Big Bad Government which held steady and pulled this country around, by "spreading the wealth around".


Not quite correct.

I said:

What do you think got us out of The Great Depression? Businesses taking the reins and pulling together to make it work?

What? You laughed so hard you puked?

It was that Big Bad Government which held steady and pulled this country around, by "spreading the wealth around".

The Great Depression started in 1929, the WWII effort started around 1939, it was that Big Bad Government which got us through that 10 year period between them.

The WWII effort finally brought about 'the end" of The Great Depression, but THERE WAS NO "war economy" for that first 10 year period.

Yep, that Big Bad Government pulled everyone through The Great Depression (everyone it could pull through). Don't kid yourselves, there was no WWII from 1929 to 1939 and no "war economy" either.

[Jerry Peck]

We got out from under one KING...200 plus years ago And now some want to go back to the KING.


We were under King Richard earlier (oh, wait, he was Republican too, wasn't he) and we have been under King W for 8 years (he sure has been acting like he was a King and not a President). :rolleyes:

How about that? Two recent Republican Kings. Now you expect us to be under King McCain? :eek:

[Ted Menelly]

Not quite correct.

I said:


The Great Depression started in 1929, the WWII effort started around 1939, it was that Big Bad Government which got us through that 10 year period between them.

The WWII effort finally brought about 'the end" of The Great Depression, but THERE WAS NO "war economy" for that first 10 year period.

Yep, that Big Bad Government pulled everyone through The Great Depression (everyone it could pull through). Don't kid yourselves, there was no WWII from 1929 to 1939 and no "war economy" either.


The gov put countless people to work with the biggest US infrastructure in all of the US existence putting the money in folks pockets to spend back into the economy. Bridges, roads etc. The building of the military structure for WWII even though it was gov paid for it put a tremendous amount of money back into the economy. Money in folks pockets to pay taxes on and spend the rest back into goods to support others that paid taxes on and put the money back into the economy.

The printing of money is not always a bad thing. When so many gain and so many pay taxes that eventually all that printed money gets taken care of. Businesses get built, more people go to work and blah, blah, blah.

[Ron Bibler]

So if what you say is correct Jerry and Ted. we should get the taxes up to 70 or 80% and start printing money like theres no end and that will fix things? what do they call that? Tax and spend?

Just today thats what Barney Frank stated that he was going to do.

Mr Frank words get the Taxes way up we need the money... what was it Bill Clinton did tax the SSI... Hold on...

So if Obama gets in you will have your wish...

Respect

Ron

[David Banks]

So if what you say is correct Jerry and Ted. we should get the taxes up to 70 or 80% and start printing money like theres no end and that will fix things? what do they call that? Tax and spend?

Just today thats what Barney Frank stated that he was going to do.

Mr Frank words get the Taxes way up we need the money... what was it Bill Clinton did tax the SSI... Hold on...

So if Obama gets in you will have your wish...

Respect

Ron

So you label Obama and Barney Frank tax and spend. What is Bush Spend and Deficit? Would you run your house like that? We are paying Billions in interest to China. So why should we vote for them? If anyone has created a Socialist, big government society it is not the Dem's. it is Bush. How Ironic.
Everyone is so uptight about taxes. What do we think has made this country so impressive with well built interstates that created business, infrastructure, Military, GI bill, etc. All paid by taxes. A fair tax system is not bad, lets just even the field a little. Even in Joe the plumbers case he would pay extra taxes on The difference between 250-280. 30,000. About 900.00 dollars more in taxes. But Obama is giving a tax credit for new employees and health insurance and Joe would probably end up better.

[Michael Larson]

It's way past time that we take Bush off the table. His term is finished.

He and the Republican party have not governed as conservatives. For the most part they have decided to act like the typical tax and spend Democrats without the taxes resulting if huge additions to the nations debt which BTW has gone up every year for decades no matter who was in office.

That said, It should be clear with a little analysis that Obama's stated policies to raise taxes for business and high income earners and to raise the capital gains taxes will result in less not more revenue to the Federal government.

How can this be you say?

Because when you decide to increase capital gains people are less likely to sell their capital and realize a capital gain which means less revenue for the fed. When capital gains taxes have been lowered in the past, revenues to the Fed increased.

When you increase the marginal income taxes rates for high income earners you take away the incentive to earn more because it will only be taken by the government at the higher rate.

When you increase taxes on business they are forced to do one of two things to stay profitable.
Either they reduce costs by doing more with fewer employees or they pass the increase in taxes along to the end user of their products which produces inflation.

On top of his tax proposals he wants to massively increase government spending for social programs further increasing the national deficit.

I think is is dangerous to adopt Obama's tax and spend policies just as we are entering a recession and slow down in activity.

I'm not thrilled with McCain either but the election of Obama is not what this country needs right now.

[Jerry Peck]

It's way past time that we take Bush off the table. His term is finished.


But his policies are not.

McCain will continue with many, if not most, of those same policies.

You and other want us to think Bush is gone, will be gone, yet there is McCain continuing to bring up Reagan, who is really gone - but not gone.

Why would anyone believe that Bush is/will be gone simply because he leaves office and another Republican steps in? Especially when the Republicans keep tying their policies to those who preceded them.

My wife and I, and our youngest daughter who was over for dinner two nights ago, all commented on how no discussions regarding politics or religion will change anyones mind, that those discussions are just a waste of time and effort.

That is true, so why not stop the back and forth and concentrate on other things?













Because this is more fun than just thinking 'What a jerk that person is.' :D

[Michael Larson]

Jerry,

You did not bother to address a single point of my post on Obama's policies.

You only complained about Bush and his policies.

Now if you wouldn't mind,

please discuss McCain's policy proposals and tell us how they will fail to improve our situation.

Mine and your minds are made up but others might benefit from the discussion.

[Jerry Peck]

You did not bother to address a single point of my post on Obama's policies.

Because your post did not need responding to in that aspect, but I did respond to one of the items in your post.[/quote]


It's way past time that we take Bush off the table. His term is finished.

No it is your turn to respond to that.


When you increase the marginal income taxes rates for high income earners you take away the incentive to earn more because it will only be taken by the government at the higher rate.

All that means is that they will go out and make a little more to compensate for it. Those people are smart people, they know they will be worse off if they go pout in a corner somewhere.



On top of his tax proposals he wants to massively increase government spending for social programs further increasing the national deficit.

Which is needed.

How can we, the greatest country in the world (at this time in history, we still are) NOT do what is right for its poor and downtrodden? We can't, we are obligated to help.


I'm not thrilled with McCain either

Good, because it will only continue to run us into the ground.


but the election of Obama is not what this country needs right now.

He is precisely what this country needs right now.

Our choices are between two people, one of whom is 'not the best there ever was' (Obama) and the other is 'not the worst there ever was' (McCain). Just because you cannot have 'the best there ever was' does not mean you go for 'not the worst there ever was'.

You (not 'you' as in singular, but 'you' as in plural, meaning all) do not know what kind of President a man will be until he is in there meeting the challenges which come up. McCain has too much baggage to lug around to be able to respond and do what is necessary.

Only time will tell, based on who is elected and how they fare versus what continues to come, but, with McCain, 'what continues to come' will be much closer to 'what we've been getting the last 8 years', and that has taken us down, way down, in the world view and in our presence in the world.

One thing we DO NOT NEED is '4 more years' of the same, or similar. Especially NOT WITH that Palin who is only a heart beat away.

The thought of what might happen if she had to take over simply sends chills down the spine, worse than any horror movie ever.

[Michael Larson]

How sad it is when the only argument Obama supporters have is McCain is four more years of the hated Bush.

This country provides more for the "poor and downtrodden" than any other, it's called opportunity to make something of yourself.

Good grief we even give away healthcare to illegal aliens.

Liberals tend to believe that government is the answer to all problems.

Conservatives tend to believe that for the most part, government is the problem.

Yes, that is simplistic but very true.
Everything else is just arranging the deck chairs on the Titianic.

When people identify themselves as conservative at nearly twice the rate of those that claim to be liberals, you have to wonder how we get the leaders we do.

[Ron Bibler]

Jerry I think we are all on the same page as we only want the best for each other. But to say that those discussions are just a waste of time and effort is not true. Its all good. if you don't start hitting each other or get out a gun:eek:


Its clear that you think that if we tax the people and put the Goverment before the people the poeple we well all be better off...

We understand that Goverment has its place... to serve and protect.

But if you can not see that Over taxing will just choak the life out of the country hello! Bush did some very bad things, not taking control of the borders and spending way to much.

But if i under stand you correct you want to keep the borders open and tax and spend more then Bush? I want the Borders shut down and Keep the Taxes the way thay are now. if we sunset the Bush tax cuts my taxes well go up 5K a year. Jerry i dont have and extra $ 5K just laying around!!! work is slow take $ 5K out of my pocket now OUCH! Some one hand me a gun.

Now who is the Bush supporter? I think its you Jerry

Talking is good. Jesus love you Jerry.

Best

Ron

[Michael Larson]

Now who is the Bush supporter? I think its you JerryOUCH!:)

[Ted Menelly]

So if what you say is correct Jerry and Ted. we should get the taxes up to 70 or 80% and start printing money like theres no end and that will fix things? what do they call that? Tax and spend?

Just today thats what Barney Frank stated that he was going to do.

Mr Frank words get the Taxes way up we need the money... what was it Bill Clinton did tax the SSI... Hold on...

So if Obama gets in you will have your wish...

Respect

Ron

Hey Ron

Actually I was just stating what happened back in the 30's and 40's. Not like I am an aficionado or anything but that is basically how we got put back to work and the economy turned around. Unfortunately it had to take place. We were in such bad shape back then that is what was needed to care for the situation.

I am sure you have probably never met anyone like me as far as hating taxes. Unfortunately they are needed. You can not run a country with 300,000,000 people in it with all its infrastructure with out them.

Even though taxes do take care of the country as far as the basics in life.

Mr Obamas plan to give a tax break to 90% of all Americans. It just cannot be done and still run the country. If you don't get a tax break (because 40% of all tax payers pay no federal tax) then you will just receive a check. Can't happen and still run the country.

He wants to increase aid, medical etc, etc for the populous but he has not said how he is going to give everyone money and pay for all the new programs. In the end of his 4 years I can only see us getting deeper in the hole by trillions. I am going to give everyone a tax break or check. I am going to make sure everyone has medical. I am going to pay down the debt. I am going to even out the deficit. I am going to pay back loans. I am going to look out for the little guy. I am going to fix the housing crisis.

Please. How does he think he is going to do this.

He keeps saying there is blame to go around on both sides and then in the same breath keeps saying that it is all the republicans fault. The ignorant voting method in Washington is about the most foolish thing I have ever seen.

Let me see. You want me to vote for your bill that will be a great help to the economy. Well my folks in *blank* state need there special breed of sheep looked after. If you agree to add 5 million for these half dozen sheep to have some new land for those sheep I will vote for your bill.

One bill at a time, period. Sure. No one will vote for the other guys bill at first cause he can't look good to his folks because he got nothing for it. That will get old with the public real quick and then they will have to start taking care of things like they should be.

Obama has the same rhetoric as I have heard from Democrats all my life. It never changes. I am going to be looking out for the little guy. When has that ever happened. The middle class is what needs to be looked out for and you won't just have a trickle down scenario but a trickle up scenario as well. The whole trickle down scenario does not work . It has to go both ways.

You cannot just look out for the big guy or the little guy. It is the middle men that run and fuel this countries economy.

I hate Republicans with there ways. I hate Democrats with there ways.

You know. When things are going well and you are making money the blinders go on and you do not even see Democrat or Republican.

Ron. You said it right. They both actually want what is best for the American people. But to far right or left has never been a good thing. That is why I truly believe that McCain would be best because he is the closest to the center.

No attack folks. The center is what we need. It might be the slower way to go getting things done but if McCain were to republican just like Obama is too Democrat then I would not lean toward him.

[Jerry Peck]

But if you can not see that Over taxing will just choak the life out of the country hello!

Agreed on that. Not agreeing on what "over taxing" is.

Without sufficient and adequate taxation, the rich will only get richer, the poor will only get poorer, and the middle class will disappear, and then the rich will get poorer as there will be no one to buy whatever it is they are selling.


Jesus love you Jerry.

As do his brothers Juan, Jorge, and Julio, along with his sister Juanita. Good friends, I love them all too. :)

I also save at the same place Jesus saves - B of A. :D

[Jim Luttrall]

Socialism

NOUN:

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

Not the form of government I endorse or prefer even if I am on the receiving end of the distribution.
I don't want the government to seize and redistribute wealth based on the collective will of the government.
Paying a proportionate share of the expenses of government is one thing and taking from one to give to another that the government deems more worthy is something totally different.

[Dan Hagman]

You better beware of this Obama Muslim Dude! :mad:

A Must Read, smear fact check by NEWS MAX LARGELY TRUE


http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/obama_smears_fact_check/2008/10/20/142379.html?s=al&promo_code=6DC0-1 (http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/obama_smears_fact_check/2008/10/20/142379.html?s=al&promo_code=6DC0-1)




Claim No. 1: Obama's campaign is funded by the rich, big corporations and foreigners.
Nearly half of the $600 million raised by Obama to date has come from wealthy donors and special interests.
Claim No. 2: Obama has had a close, ongoing relationship with domestic terrorist Bill Ayers.
Obama and Ayers worked together on the board distributing millions of dollars with the aim of radicalizing Chicago schoolchildren.
Claim No. 3: Obama takes advice from executives of troubled mortgage backer Fannie Mae.
Obama and two former heads of the giant mortgage-backing institution — James A. Johnson and Franklin D. Raines — whose corruption played a key role in the current financial crisis.
Claim No. 4: Obama has close ties with the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), a group suspected of massive voter registration fraud.
ACORN spokesman Lewis Goldberg acknowledges in the Oct. 11, 2008, New York Times that Obama trained ACORN leaders. And Obama worked as a lawyer for ACORN.
Claim No. 5: Obama has shown only wavering support for individual gun-ownership rights.
Obama has supported handgun confiscation; the handgun ban in Washington, D.C.; a virtual ban on high-powered rifle ammunition; and many other draconian restrictions on Second Amendment rights.

If elected, wrote the NRA, Obama “would be the most anti-gun president in American history.”
Claim No. 6: A fervent supporter of abortion rights, Obama supports late-term and partial-birth abortions.
Obama has a 100 percent pro-choice voting record according to NARAL Pro-Choice America; his rating from the National Right to Life Committee is zero.
Claim No. 7: Obama showed little interest or support for American combat troops during his overseas visits.
Obama's visit to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan: “As the Soldiers lined up to shake his hand, he blew them off . . . He again shunned the opportunity to talk to soldiers to thank them for their service . . .
Claim No. 8: Barack Obama is a Muslim.
In fact, Barack Hussein Obama’s Kenyan father was raised Muslim, though he reportedly was not religious.

His mother divorced and remarried another man, a Muslim from Indonesia. As a youngster in Indonesia, Barack Obama attended two schools and was registered at both as a Muslim. He received religious instruction in both schools as a Muslim, including studying the Quran. According to a childhood friend, Obama occasionally attended services at a local mosque.
Claim No. 9: As president, Obama would raise taxes dramatically for most Americans.
Obama has promised to raise various taxes that will fall on most economic classes, including the dividend tax, the FICA tax cap, the capital gains tax, the estate tax, and new taxes on gasoline.

He also called for the Bush tax cuts to expire in 2010, which will automatically raise taxes on most Americans. By letting the Bush cuts expire, Obama would produce a $2 trillion tax increase that some economists predict will rumble through the already weakened economy like an earthquake.
Claim No. 10: Obama was born outside the United States and is ineligible for the presidency.
Former deputy attorney general of Pennsylvania, Philip J. Berg, a Democrat with mixed credibility (he has supported conspiracy theories involving 9/11), has filed a lawsuit to force Obama to produce a certified copy of his birth certificate. According to Berg, Obama’s paternal grandmother has said she was present at his birth in Kenya, after which his mother promptly returned with her baby to the United States.

If that is true, Obama could be constitutionally ineligible to be president.

[Jerry Peck]

Dan,

You need to get a life and get real.

Your post was a clear attempt at fear mongering - you should check your facts before going all out fear mongering like that, only to end with ...


If that is true,

[Dan Hagman]

Jerry , lighten up a little. :) Not my article, I didn't write it. It was an article by New Max. Just passing on information. It's all part of the debate, you either agree or dissagree and that is your right and opinion.

You give alot of good information on this site and sometimes people don't agree with you. Is this how you respond just because you don't agree is to say "get a life and get real" ?

[Ron Bibler]

http://img.youtube.com/vi/bI9p5M8J2aE/2.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbI9p5M8J2aE&sa=X&oi=video_result&resnum=5&ct=thumbnail&usg=AFQjCNE9nN1Fx7ljLT7q6L-dFA0n2WW4JA)[/URL]
[URL="http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbI9p5M8J2aE&sa=X&oi=video_result&resnum=5&ct=thumbnail&usg=AFQjCNE9nN1Fx7ljLT7q6L-dFA0n2WW4JA"] (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbI9p5M8J2aE&sa=X&oi=video_result&resnum=5&ct=thumbnail&usg=AFQjCNE9nN1Fx7ljLT7q6L-dFA0n2WW4JA)
Boom! Boom! Baby...:eek:

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Is this how you respond just because


Dan,

No, that is how I respond when someone posts in big bold type, I respond with like big bold type.

Then, to post it as though it were true, then end it with "If ... "??? :confused: , well, your entire post seemed real fear mongering (as though that was your intent, *your* writing or not, it was *your* post), and, as such (apparent fear mongering), it deserved to be responded to in like kind.

Like kind ... like it or not. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, you post it, expect a response.

Other than that, nothing wrong with it. :p

:D

[Jerry McCarthy]

As I’ve said before what this country needs is a benevolent king. Those folks in Wash-DC claiming they represent us are so far out of touch with reality it’s pathetic. If we just closed the Pentagon, get rid of those long standing stupid farm subsidies (especially cotton, cheese and tobacco) and those God awful “earmarks” we could balance the budget. Where’s TR when we desperately need him?

[Victor DaGraca]

There are fewer than two weeks until the election, an election that will
decide the next President of the United States . The person elected will be
the president of all Americans, not just the Democrats or the Republicans.

To show our solidarity as Americans, let's all get together and show each
other our support for the candidate of our choice. It's time that we all
came together, Democrats and Republicans alike.

If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with
your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.

Thank you

[Ted Menelly]

There are fewer than two weeks until the election, an election that will
decide the next President of the United States . The person elected will be
the president of all Americans, not just the Democrats or the Republicans.

To show our solidarity as Americans, let's all get together and show each
other our support for the candidate of our choice. It's time that we all
came together, Democrats and Republicans alike.

If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with
your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.

Thank you

I wasn't quite sure where you were going with that until the obvious last sentence. I got a good laugh going at that one :) Thanks

[Jerry Peck]

If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with
your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.


I wasn't quite sure where you were going with that until the obvious last sentence. I got a good laugh going at that one :) Thanks

Ted,

That's because, with so many more supporters for Obama, when they drive at night with their headlights off, they can run over the few remaining McCain supporters.

Great idea, Victor!

:D

[David Banks]

Mcain has lost his moral compass.
McCain the socialst?

YouTube - ZOMFG! John McCain Is A Socialist! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM)

[Kevin Luce]

McCain has lost his moral compass.
McCain the socialst?

YouTube - ZOMFG! John McCain Is A Socialist! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM)

This is one of many reasons why I can't vote for him anymore.:( It also makes me mad that Palin & the family gets $150K for clothes when others are trying to pay toward their $150K house (Who cares where the clothes end up, the money is still spent).

All I have to say is there has to be some big paybacks to have one of these two to become elected. Why else would this much money be involved.

[Kevin Luce]

There are fewer than two weeks until the election, an election that will
decide the next President of the United States . The person elected will be
the president of all Americans, not just the Democrats or the Republicans.

To show our solidarity as Americans, let's all get together and show each
other our support for the candidate of our choice. It's time that we all
came together, Democrats and Republicans alike.

If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with
your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.

Thank you

Wow! That would be strange seeing almost everyone driving with their lights off.

[Rick Hurst]

.........

[Jim Luttrall]

It also makes me mad that Palin & the family gets $150K for clothes when others are trying to pay toward their $150K house (Who cares where the clothes end up, the money is still spent).



And if they did not spend the money, there would be yet another attack criticizing Palin and family for being uncouth and poorly dressed.
What is the difference in spending $150K to make sure the family looks good on TV and Obama campaign spending $800K with Acorn for site selection and lighting to make sure they look good on TV? About $650K.



FEC reports show that from February-May 2008, Obama paid $832,598.29 to CSI. (ACORN)
The payments were for:
$310,441.20 25-FEB-08 STAGING, SOUND, LIGHTING
$160,689.40 27-FEB-08 STAGING, SOUND, LIGHTING
$98,451.20 29-FEB-08 TRAVEL/LODGING
$74,578.01 13-MAR-08 STAGING, SOUND, LIGHTING
$18,417.00 28-MAR-08 POLLING
$18,633.60 29-APR-08 STAGING, SOUND, LIGHTING
$63,000.00 29-APR-08 ADVANCE WORK
$105.84 02-MAY-08 LICENSE FEES
$105.84 02-MAY-08 LICENSE FEES
$75,000.00 17-MAY-08 ADVANCE WORK
$13,176.20 17-MAY-08 PER DIEM


Not saying I would spend that money on clothes, but then I doubt I would be running for political office in my jeans and work shirt either.
But just because the media picks on one canidate more than another does not mean there is no excess on the other side.
I look at the issues, experience, and record to chose my canidates, not the one the media chooses to support.

[Jerry Peck]

Are you saying it is okay for Palin to get paid her per diem rate for traveling ... WHILE LIVING IN *HER OWN* HOME?

Palin received per diem at Wasilla home: Gov. Sarah Palin | adn.com (http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/521329.html)

[Ted Menelly]

.........


Hey Rick

I see lots of lights on there.

[Jerry Peck]

If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with your headlights on during the day.


I see lots of lights on there.

Yeah, typical of those who cannot follow instructions. :p

"please drive with your headlights on during the day"

Don't even know the difference between day and night, if figures. :cool:

Oh, wait, that WAS during the day, you say, that's just their allowable pollution level. Got it. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Bob Spermo]

I just came home after casting my ballot! The first line is the Presidential vote and it made me sick to my stomach to think that these are the four best candidates we can come up with out of 300,000,000 people. The voting franchise is one of our most repsected freedoms yet the current political process is extremely flawed and needs an hugh overhaul! Obama has spent $600 million and threatens to buy the election. McCain has not made a lot of sense on many issues. I respect McCain's sacrifices (I spent 32 years flying jet fighters so I've been there!) but I just couldn't vote for him. I respect his son for going to Iraq. I don't like Obama because he wants to give my hard earned money away to people that want a handout. So I faced a dilemna in the booth! I decided to waste my vote in protest and vote Libertarian. I did take my votes for Congress more seriously and actually tried to vote on the issues!

[David Banks]

Tax the rich and the country make break even.
The biggest tax cheats: Rich folks - MSN Money (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/AvoidAnAudit/the-biggest-tax-cheats-rich-folks.aspx)

[Rick Hurst]

C'mon Jerry, the picture shows that all the cars have the lights on at night so where is the Obama supporters. :p

rick

[Kevin Luce]

Wow. I was reading the posts regarding Palin and it has the same tone as when people talk about InterNACHI. People hating Palin sounds the same as people that don't like InterNACHI while the people that like Palin sound like the people that like InterNACHI. (Palin supporters = InterNACHI supporters; always defending their actions.):o

[Kevin Luce]

C'mon Jerry, the picture shows that all the cars have the lights on at night so where is the Obama supporters. :p

rick

Around here they are still trying to get into the doors so they can vote. Indiana has been a Republican state but this year might be different.
The Republicans are doing what ever they can to prevent voting.

They are worried.

[David Banks]

Around here they are still trying to get into the doors so they can vote. Indiana has been a Republican state but this year might be different.
The Republicans are doing what ever they can to prevent voting.

They are worried.

I thought I read the Repub's are trying to stop the vote in working class Gary Indiana over some minor technicality. True?
I have got to think this huge volume of voters mean people want something totally different. We will see.

[Jerry Peck]

Oh, wait, that WAS during the day, you say, that's just their allowable pollution level. Got it.


C'mon Jerry, the picture shows that all the cars have the lights on at night so where is the Obama supporters.


C'mon Rick, that's *not* night ... that's just dark from pollution. :D That's daytime, and McCain's supporters are driving their gas hogs around trying to hide the polling places from the Obama supporters. :p

[Ron Bibler]

Whats the bottom line for me.

1 Ride my Harley Need Gas. its a bit of a pig without the lip stick...
2 Drive my S class M.B. Need Gas Its a total pig no lip stick...
3 Play my guitar in the band. very loud! very loud!

FYI Bands name " blind pigs " No lip stick.

4 Repete steps 1,2,3. over and over and over.

5 Try to get some sleep and stay off this board. no luck to date.

6 Repete steps 1,2,3. over and over and over. Im getting good at this.

In order for me to stay on track with step 1,2,3. I need gas for the Bike.

Obama wants me to get a Electric Motor.

That sucks.. not good for a HARLEY. Just will not sound the same.

I vote for more Drilling need the gas.

Repete steps 1,2,3.

Obama = Electric Harley=Sucks

Best

Ron

[Billy Stephens]

makes me mad that Palin & the family gets $150K for clothes when others are trying to pay toward their $150K house
.
Maybe Hillary could loan Her some ($6,000 a copy ) Pants Suits. :D
.
* Wonder what Todd would look like in Lime Green ? :eek: :eek: :eek:
.

[Ron Bibler]

This is one of many reasons why I can't vote for him anymore.:( It also makes me mad that Palin & the family gets $150K for clothes when others are trying to pay toward their $150K house (Who cares where the clothes end up, the money is still spent).

All I have to say is there has to be some big paybacks to have one of these two to become elected. Why else would this much money be involved.

Make me mad they should not get any food eather...

Them dang Republicans just get to much. They should go back to eating dog food them dand Republicans...

I think Nancy Pelosi is a Republican just look at that pearl necklaces:eek:
http://www.looking4leaders.org/nancy-pelosi/images/nancy-pelosi.jpg

Democrat or Republican
That pearl necklaces cost some bucks. that could pay alot of peoples rent.

She is so mean...:mad:

[Kevin Luce]

Obama = Electric Harley=Sucks

Ron
Maybe Harley can include a button that makes the Harley Sound? That way you can have the electric Harley and the sound.

There's your answer so you can go vote for Obama now.;)

[Jerry Peck]

2 Drive my S class M.B. Need Gas Its a total pig no lip stick...

I vote for more Drilling need the gas.

1. Drive my XJS Jag. Need Gas. Need PREMIUM gas. Makes S class M.B. look like it sips gas.

I vote NO DRILLING.

Ain't gonna matter anyway. No gas from new drilling for a decade of so.

By then, no need gas, will have "flux capacitor" installed by then - don't know where I'll get the 1.21 gigawatts of electrical power to operate it, though.

[Ted Menelly]

1. Drive my XJS Jag. Need Gas. Need PREMIUM gas. Makes S class M.B. look like it sips gas.

I vote NO DRILLING.

Ain't gonna matter anyway. No gas from new drilling for a decade of so.

By then, no need gas, will have "flux capacitor" installed by then - don't know where I'll get the 1.21 gigawatts of electrical power to operate it, though.

I watched the science channel and the rig managers and the workers all said 2 years max from set up to new supply for any rig off shore. I guess I cannot argue with the actual workers and managers. 2 years not 10

[Billy Stephens]

No gas from new drilling for a decade of so.

By then, no need gas, will have "flux capacitor" installed by then - don't know where I'll get the 1.21 gigawatts of electrical power to operate it, though.
.
Last One Came on line 1977. ( maybe now we can build again.) :rolleyes:
* Photo was taken in FRANCE !
.

[Ron Bibler]

New rules for all. form the masters that be.

No drilling.
no nukes.
no keep your money.
no gold soon to come.
no gas.
no no no no no no.:eek:

JUST NO...

Best

Ron

[Rick Hurst]

Ron,

You'll still get that check from the gov't though if you don't work to hard.:D

rick

[Kevin Luce]

Make me mad they should not get any food eather...

Them dang Republicans just get to much. They should go back to eating dog food them dand Republicans...

I think Nancy Pelosi is a Republican just look at that pearl necklaces:eek:
http://www.looking4leaders.org/nancy-pelosi/images/nancy-pelosi.jpg

Democrat or Republican
That pearl necklaces cost some bucks. that could pay alot of peoples rent.

She is so mean...:mad:




I just don't believe in donating money to somebody so they can go buy their little baby almost a $1000 outfit. Same with food, I'm not expecting anyone to eat dog food but I also don't expect anyone to spend $20 on a hot dog where the money came from a donation.

They talk about not be reckless with the American people's money but yet they spend that much of the donations on clothes that are going to be worn for a short time.

McCain blew his $250M in donations and was almost broke. He went back to his old ways and came back to win the nomination with little money. I guess he didn't learn from that.

I thought McCain & Palin was a Maverick (Not doing what the good old boys do). Seems like McCain doesn't learn and Palin is a puppet.

[Billy Stephens]

Ron,

You'll still get that check from the gov't though if you don't work to hard .:D

rick
.
:D $ CHECK $ :D .
.
I'm going to get 2 Mail Boxes. ( will He give me a FREE Mail Box as well ???
.

[Billy Stephens]

Saw Madam Speaker about a month ago ( talking point was "Energy Independence' ) *before gas prices started to fall & credit crisis.

Quote " We need to go from Fossil Fuel to Natural Gas"

She had recently Invested in a Natural Gas Company. (100k ) was asked about significant investment and rebuttal was the amount of money was not significant.

??? Get Away from Fossil Fuel to Natural Gas ( wonder what Madam Speaker thinks Natural Gas is??? )
.

[Ron Bibler]

Ya your right Rick I plum forgt about that.

Quote: Kevin. Maybe Harley can include a button that makes the Harley Sound? That way you can have the electric Harley and the sound.Quote:


This is part of a big problem. Kevin if you ever got on a Harley never mind the new ones. the old school bikes. they were a fix mount Vtwin the bike shook all the time, they had a carb. that for the most part ran rich. they always put out a little blue smoke mix with the extra gas...

when you gave it the gas and open the cluch you new you were on a bike. open the gas some more and kick it in 2 gear hit the gas the bike takes off your hands are holding on your finger grab the cluch kick into 3 pop the cluch your up around 60mph grab the cluch kick into 4gear let it rool out. you face is in the wind you are on a Harley. Thats what it all about.

I say out of my cold dead hands will you get my bike...

Only a Democrat would try to take the AMERICAN Harley off the AMERICAN Roads...

Kevin I bet you have a pink bike with button that makes the Harley Sound...


Best

Ron

[Kevin Luce]

Ya your right Rick I plum forgt about that.

Quote: Kevin. Maybe Harley can include a button that makes the Harley Sound? That way you can have the electric Harley and the sound.Quote:


This is part of a big problem. Kevin if you ever got on a Harley never mind the new ones. the old school bikes. they were a fix mount Vtwin the bike shook all the time, they had a carb. that for the most part ran rich. they always put out a little blue smoke mix with the extra gas...

when you gave it the gas and open the cluch you new you were on a bike. open the gas some more and kick it in 2 gear hit the gas the bike takes off your hands are holding on your finger grab the cluch kick into 3 pop the cluch your up around 60mph grab the cluch kick into 4gear let it rool out. you face is in the wind you are on a Harley. Thats what it all about.

I say out of my cold dead hands will you get my bike...

Only a Democrat would try to take the AMERICAN Harley off the AMERICAN Roads...

Kevin I bet you have a pink bike with button that makes the Harley Sound...


Best

Ron





lol. I thought you were really going to jump on me for making that comment. :)

[Michael Greenwalt]

I always like to read up on these after they have had a while for people to post wild outlandish claims. And, ahem, this one is no different. It is always interesting to see all the comments about how I (( as a member of a particular party, which one doesn't matter)) am going to ruin the country, destroy our lives, take your guns, abuse your rights, steal from the poor, distribute money from the wealthy, destroy our economics, and on, and on. It seems that there is never an shortage of abundant rhetoric, innuendo, false statements, and downright hate from both sides.
Good to see our industry is right in there with the rest of em! Sometimes I wonder, after having read the news from such reliable sources like CNN, Newsmax, Fox, MSN, and others just how our country ever survived as long as we have. None of this is new, been going on long as we have been a country and yet,,,,,yet,,,,,,we still belong to a proud Republic alive and well.
Guess I will have to tune in in four more years to see a country that has been destroyed by whom ever wins this election. And you know, I think this is just how the residents of our country felt back in say, 1800 too.
Maybe we will live after all, you think?

oh, almost forgot, They are actually going to begin taking Harley's? Wow, that's a new one. I want to see that on the news when it happens. Should be interesting.

[Ted Menelly]

This is just a teeny tin bit different Mike. This is world wide and serious. This is not just a localized US of A concerns. Yeah, I would say just a little different.

Why anyone would want to take the office right now is beside me. Well, I guess it really does not make a difference. Four years as President and no matter how well or how bad you do you collect hundreds of thousands a year with full complete benefits. Gee, not a bad gig. 4 years and retire for life. For that matter , four years in Congress

[Ron Bibler]

I always like to read up on these after they have had a while for people to post wild outlandish claims. And, ahem, this one is no different. It is always interesting to see all the comments about how I (( as a member of a particular party, which one doesn't matter)) am going to ruin the country, destroy our lives, take your guns, abuse your rights, steal from the poor, distribute money from the wealthy, destroy our economics, and on, and on. It seems that there is never an shortage of abundant rhetoric, innuendo, false statements, and downright hate from both sides.
Good to see our industry is right in there with the rest of em! Sometimes I wonder, after having read the news from such reliable sources like CNN, Newsmax, Fox, MSN, and others just how our country ever survived as long as we have. None of this is new, been going on long as we have been a country and yet,,,,,yet,,,,,,we still belong to a proud Republic alive and well.
Guess I will have to tune in in four more years to see a country that has been destroyed by whom ever wins this election. And you know, I think this is just how the residents of our country felt back in say, 1800 too.
Maybe we will live after all, you think?

oh, almost forgot, They are actually going to begin taking Harley's? Wow, that's a new one. I want to see that on the news when it happens. Should be interesting.

Michael. My post about the Harley went over your head. They just want to convert the Harley to a pice of crap with an Electric Motor.
or wind power. or?

Thats not a Harley any more...

You need gas and oil for a Harley to run. not an extention cord.

Best

Ron

[David Banks]

Michael. My post about the Harley went over your head. They just want to convert the Harley to a pice of crap with an Electric Motor.
or wind power. or?

Thats not a Harley any more...

You need gas and oil for a Harley to run. not an extention cord.

Best

Ron

No one is going to take your gas powered Harley away.
Even if they did what do you want your Harley or endless wars for middle east oil? Now being the religious man you claim to be the choice should be easy.

[Victor DaGraca]

oh, almost forgot, They are actually going to begin taking Harley's? Wow, that's a new one. I want to see that on the news when it happens. Should be interesting.


Wait no more...
The city of Myrtle Beach has for all intents and purposes ended its Spring Harley Rally by passing 15 new ordinances aimed at ending said rally.
Amongst the ordinances are:
A mandatory helmet law (the state only requires helmets on riders under 21 years old)
A limit of 89 decibels measured at the exhaust. (my lawn mower wont pass that one)
Eye protection while riding
Makes property owners (hotels) responsible for any disturbances created by their guests.
etc. etc.
City of Myrtle Beach - New Ordinances (http://cityofmyrtlebeach.com/newordinances.html)

Private citizens and businesses alike have filed federal lawsuits against the city. Myrtle Beach bike rally lawsuits to go to court - Local - Myrtle Beach Online (http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/142/story/641401.html)

There goes our tax money.

Although they wont admit it, this is all about stopping the Memorial day black biker week or should I say "crimefest"

YouTube - BLACK BIKE WEEKEND BBW 2008 MYRTLE BEACH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X483zAnxGh8&feature=related)

make sure you also watch the rest of the BBW videos.
And welcome to our family friendly beach.

[Ted Menelly]

Yup. The family friendly beach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jack Feldmann]

Can't imagine what it must be like to live there during that week.
I guess there must be some businesses that welcome all the bikers. There is probably a lot of money rolling into town too, but at what cost?

I had a Realtor open a door for me this morning. Without prompting, she proceeded to tell me that...
1. Obama is a muslim, and was known to pal around with Osama.
2. Bill Clinton was the cause of 911, because he had Osama in custody, but let him go.
3. The Dem V.P. Lieberman was a crackpot.
4. That Sara Palin has more experience than ANY OTHER woman in politics.
5. Ted Kennedy had just killed woman with his car.

The saving grace was she ONLY opened the door. She left as soon as the lockbox dropped.

My client wasn't there today, so I didn't have to extend this conversation any further.

I just can't figure out why she thought I was interested in her views, or that I might even share them, or why she felt compelled to express them. I just made the mistake of saying Good Morning. Those were the only two words I got out, and the only two I spoke to her. It was surreal.

[Michael Greenwalt]

Doh, yes I did miss that, jeez somedays are umm, difficult for me.

[Jerry Peck]

Yo! Dude!

Don't forget about Bike Week in Daytona, which actually lasts about 2-1/2 weeks. Brings about 400,000 people for Bike Week.

Not satisfied with Bike Week in Feb., the added Biketoberfest in Oct., which just finished. This years crowds were down slightly from last year's crowds, only about 200,000 people they say.

Compared to Bike Week, Biketoberfest is the 'Wine and Dine' crowd, the 'Goldwingers' versus the 'Harleys' at Bike Week.

Not to worry, though, they bring enough dough to line the local merchants pockets to make it all worthwhile. :)

Besides, compared to the Daytona 500, the Firecracker 400, the 24 Hours at Daytona, the Truck Races, and all the other races, Bike Week and Biketoberfest as just marshmallows on a stick. :rolleyes:

And where we live is just outside the areas they gather, so they are really no problemo ... except we went to our little diner we go to for breakfast on Sunday morning and ... there must have been about 100 bikes parked there ... we drove on by, to busy. No problem, those times are when those places make their money, so they can stay open the rest of the year. :cool:

[Jack Feldmann]

There was a piece in the paper this morning about a Bristol, TN man that was convicted for killing a guy during Bikertoberfest last year. Seems he was one of a group that beat this guy to death in a motel room while robbing him. Nice crowd.

[Rick Hurst]

After watching this video clip, I think my choice is made clear.:D
YouTube - Unbelievable McCain Vs. Obama Dance-Off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlAKnSCRWQM)

[Jerry McCarthy]

Jack
I live in a condo that also has the brother of that agent you met as a resident. He cornered me one day in the parking basement and began his spiel about Obama being a known terrorist, and bla, bla, bla. I looked at him and said “did you know that we have two residents living in our building who are in daily email contact with Osama? The look on his face made my day. I’ve no time for such nonsense so that night is attached a Vote for Obama ad on the front bumper of his car and he drove around with it on for a week before finally discovering it and ripping it off. Everybody in the building had a good laugh, even the Republicans who think he is a nut case.

[Jerry Peck]

There was a piece in the paper this morning about a Bristol, TN man that was convicted for killing a guy during Bikertoberfest last year. Seems he was one of a group that beat this guy to death in a motel room while robbing him. Nice crowd.

Yeah, interesting story, if you can't trust another druggie from your own home town, who can you trust? :)

[Jack Feldmann]

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I have not heard Obama say that he wants Harley's to have electric motors. Ron said it. So Ron must want an electric motor, or he is just trying to stir up stuff by saying that Obama said something.

Oh yeah, he's a terrorist too - I know for a fact, because a well known Realtor told me so just the other day. "You bethcha!!!!"

[Ron Bibler]

Sorry guys if i can't find the words or if they just come out wrong sometimes. I do hope the best for all on this board

No I don't want an electric Harley. Jack.

I was trying to make a point that Mr Obama is just not going to open our land for Drilling for oil. thats a fact. the Dems say they will but they won't and thats a fact. we need the stuff and fast. and its only a few years out if we get started now. Not 10 Years like some say.
but If Obama is in we will not Drill one hole any place in the USA.
Thats my point guys.

almost everything we use, buy, have, drive, work with, and just about every part of out lives has some % of oil in it.

I had open heart bypass 6 years back and just about everything was plastic that was part of that time in the hospital for me.

I think Obama is a good guy for the most part just on the other side of so many things form my way of life.

Oil is what will Get my vote the year. with out the stuff we are sunk.

Best to all.

Ron

[Kevin Luce]

Nothing like a Harley driving by and seeing my daughter cover her ears or the Boom, Boom, Boom sound coming from 5 cars back.

When it comes to Joe the so called plumber. Who makes over $250K a year here and declares it all on their Federal Taxes. If I made more than $200k, I would put as much in tax free investment as I could (such as a SEP). Anyone that doesn't set something up and pays taxes on over $250K should pay more taxes for being stupid.

From the information I was able to look up on the computer, most home inspectors in the US makes between $30k to $50k after all deductions. The most I seen was $100K after deductions. That is a long way from $250k.

[Ron Bibler]

My grand daughters love to go for rides on my Harley.

Faster Granpa Faster...

Best

Ron

[Ted Menelly]

I envy you Ron. I raced dirt by for about 10 years in my younger life and there lies the problem with me getting on a street bike. Go faster Ted go faster.

I just cannot get on the things and get the rpm up fast enough. Before I know it I am passing cars on one wheel. Can't get enough of that power. Same thing with cars. I would love to own an old classic muscle car or one of the new Challengers with well over 400 horse. I just can't see myself driving very long without some blue lights behind me.

[Ron Bibler]

Yep its like looking down at the redline on the tach.
11K... on a street bike.

Something about that.

My Harley more of a cruser but it will get up and go... 85 is a good speed to cruse at... wind in your face... your are alive at that speed. then you say to your self... slow down live a little longer you have things to do...


Best

Ron

[Ted Menelly]

A little political humor here. Don't anyone get upset I just received it in an email and copied and pasted it.

Notice to All Employees
As of November 5, 2008, when President Obama is officially elected into office, our company will instill a few new policies which are in keeping with his new, inspiring issues of change and fairness:
1. All salespeople will be pooling their sales and bonuses into a common pool that will be divided equally between all of you. This will serve to give those of you who are underachieving a “fair shake.”
2. All low level workers will be pooling their wages, including overtime, into a common pool, dividing it equally amongst yourselves. This will help those who are “too busy for overtime” to reap the rewards from those who have more spare time and can work extra hours.
3. All top management will now be referred to as “the government.” We will not participate in this “pooling” experience because the law doesn't apply to us.
4. The “government” will give eloquent speeches to all employees every week, encouraging it's workers to continue to work hard “for the good of all.”
5. The employees will be thrilled with these new policies because it's “good to spread the wealth.” Those of you who have underachieved will finally get an opportunity; those of you who have worked hard and had success will feel more “patriotic.”
6. The last few people who were hired should clean out their desks. Don't feel bad, though, because President Obama will give you free healthcare, free handouts, free oil for heating your home, free food stamps, and he'll let you stay in your home for as long as you want even if you can't pay your mortgage. If you appeal directly to our democratic congress, you might even get a free flat screen TV and a coupon for free haircuts (shouldn't all Americans be entitled to nice looking hair?) !!!

[Jack Feldmann]

In a past life (early 70's) I used to race Formula Karts (not sure what they are called now). At the time I had a 250 Suzuki/5 speed running nitro methane probably putting out well over 40HP on a kart that weighed 280# wet, with me on it.

Well over 100 mph with your butt less than 2" from the ground in a reclined driving position. We used to race on road courses like Riverside Raceway and Willow Springs in So CA. Races were typically 100 mile enduros.

Had a small block Chevy that ran low 11's. Of course by today's standards, that's almost like some production cars.

Ah, the smell of nitro in the morning!!!!!!

[Mike Schulz]

COPIED

I would suggest that you all read this, it makes so much sense. It speaks to all of the differences between Dem and Reps. I am sorry about the length. It has many references that support the facts herein.
F Y I -- Slightly political, mostly just common sense.

I was surprised by some of this info - maybe you will be too!
This email comes in three parts:

Part 1

Remember the election in 2006?
Thought you might like to read the following:

1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2-1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.

Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:
1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $ 4.00 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate
(stock and mutual fund losses);
5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.

America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
Remember it's Congress that makes law, not the President. He has to work
with what's handed to him.

Part 2

Taxes... Whether Democrat or Republican, you will find these statistics
enlightening and amazing: The numbers are off but Bush is still lower

(http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html))
Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008
Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 &nbs p; Married making 125K - tax $31,250

Democratic candidates will return to the higher tax rates.
It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think
Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever.
If Obama is elected, he will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion
of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen.
This is like the movie "The Sting" with Paul Newman; you scam somebody
out of some money and they don't even know what happened.

PART 3

You think the war in Iraq is costing us too much? Read this:
Boy am I confused. I have been hammered with the propaganda that it is the
Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting us. I now find that to be
RIDICULOUS.

I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again
until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading
them. I have included URL's for verification of all the following facts.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens
each year by state governments. Verify at: _http://tinyurl.com/zob77_
(http://tinyurl.com/zob77 (http://tinyurl.com/zob77))

2. $2.2 Billion a year is spent on food assistance programs such
as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
Verify at: _http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html_
(http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html (http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html))

3. $2.5 Billion a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
Verify at: _http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html_
(http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html (http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html))

4. $12 Billion a year is spent on primary and secondary school
education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of
English!
Verify at: _http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html_
(http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html))

5. $17 Billion a year is spent for education for the American-born
children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
Verify at: _http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html_
(http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html))

6. $3 Million a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
Verify at: _http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html_
(http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html))

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
Verify at: _http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html_
(http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html))

8. $90 Billion a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare &
social services by the American taxpayers. Verify at:
_http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html_
(http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html (http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html))

9. $200 Billion a year in suppressed American wages are caused by
the illegal aliens. Verify at:
_http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html_
(http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html))

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two
and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular their
children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
Verify at: _http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html_
(http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html))

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that
crossed our Southern Border, also as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from
Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin
and marijuana and, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.
Verify at: Homeland Security Report: _http://tinyurl.com/t9sht_
(http://tinyurl.com/t9sht (http://tinyurl.com/t9sht))

12. The National Policy Institute, estimated that the total cost of mass
deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of
between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.
Verify at: _http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf_
(http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf (http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf))

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to
their countries of origin. Verify at:_http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm_
(http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm (http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm))

14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes
Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States .'
Verify at: _http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml_
(http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml (http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml))

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!!

Why are we THAT stupid?

Now you want to vote for Obama for him to add more give aways!

[Mike Schulz]

YouTube - Obama Bombshell Redistribution of Wealth Audio Uncovered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck)

WorldWatch - October 5, 2008 - Would the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights? - The Ornery American (http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2008-10-05-1.html)

[Kevin Luce]

Mike

Yet there is a good chance that we will have a Democratic president this time and keep the Democratic Congress. If this happens (which is likely in Congress), that tells me a lot about people's opinion about Republicans.

It also doesn't help Republicans when people from McCain's party is calling Palin a Diva and people from the Palin part is upset with McCain's group for doing such a poor job showing Palin off and not allowing her to be herself.

I wish McCain won the presidency 8 years ago since he was the best qualified at the time, but the majority of Republican's screwed up and look what we got. McCain is a completely different person doing things completely different this time around and he has screwed up soo bad.

McCain is not a true Republican and doesn't represent what the Republicans truly believe in. Between the Democrats that are going to resist McCain and the Republican that laughing at the Maverick thing behind McCain's back, do you really think McCain can deal with these people? I personally don't think so.

Bush got elected twice and look where he is now (not many like what he has done). There is the mistake and I hope the American people don't make another mistake this time around.

[Jim Luttrall]

So let me get this straight Mike, you really want us to believe that global warming, hurricanes, the housing crisis, 9-11, $4 gas were NOT caused by the Republicans or Bush?
I just cannot accept that, the entire liberal media takes the opposing position:rolleyes:

[Ted Menelly]

So let me get this straight Mike, you really want us to believe that global warming, hurricanes, the housing crisis, 9-11, $4 gas were NOT caused by the Republicans or Bush?
I just cannot accept that, the entire liberal media takes the opposing position:rolleyes:


Thats good Jim. I like that. Had to do a little thinking on it but it was good

[David Banks]

I guess Theodore Roosevelt was a socialst because he cared about inequity and social upheaval in our country. Last paragraph says it all about the fear campaign.

McCain's Hero: More Socialist Than Obama!McCain can call Obama a socialist or he can call Teddy Roosevelt his hero. He can't do both.
By Timothy NoahPosted Thursday, Oct. 23, 2008, at 2:11 PM ET

Imagine that instead of telling Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher that "when you spread the wealth around it's good for everybody," Barack Obama had said the following
We grudge no man a fortune in civil life if it is honorably obtained and well used. It is not even enough that it should have been gained without doing damage to the community. We should permit it to be gained only so long as the gaining represents benefit to the community. … The really big fortune, the swollen fortune, by the mere fact of its size, acquires qualities which differentiate it in kind as well as in degree from what is possessed by men of relatively small means. Therefore, I believe in a graduated income tax on big fortunes, and … a graduated inheritance tax on big fortunes, properly safeguarded against evasion, and increasing rapidly in amount with the size of the estate.

The New York Post's Page One would blare: "OBAMA: I'LL SEIZE 'SWOLLEN FORTUNES'!" Bill Kristol would demand to know, in his New York Times column, what godly powers enabled Obama to discern precisely whose wealth—David Geffen's? George Soros'?—would "benefit the community." On Fox News, Bill O'Reilly would start to say something, then sputter, turn purple, and keel over backward in a grand mal seizure.
John McCain, meanwhile, would have to stop saying that Teddy Roosevelt is his hero, because the passage quoted above is from T.R.'s "New Nationalism" speech of 1910. Either that, or McCain would have to quit calling Barack Obama a socialist.

T.R. justified progressive taxation straightforwardly as a matter of equality. In his 1907 State of the Union address, Roosevelt said:
Our aim is to recognize what Lincoln pointed out: The fact that there are some respects in which men are obviously not equal; but also to insist that there should be an equality of self-respect and of mutual respect, an equality of rights before the law, and at least an approximate equality in the conditions under which each man obtains the chance to show the stuff that is in him when compared to his fellows [italics mine].
Obama is constrained by a very different political climate to justify his sole proposed tax hike—on incomes above $250,000—by stating its benefit to commerce. Here's his "spread the wealth around" comment in context (for a more complete transcription, click here):

I do believe that for folks like me, who have worked hard but, frankly, have also been lucky, I don't mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress who I just met over there who, things are slow, and she can barely make the rent. My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's going to be good for everybody. If you've got a plumbing business, you're going to be better off if you've got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you. And right now, everybody's so pinched that business is bad for everybody. And I think when you spread the wealth around it's good for everybody.

In a radio address on Oct. 18, McCain said that to the "straight-talking," "plainspoken" Wurzelbacher, words like "spread the wealth around"
sounded a lot like socialism. And a lot of Americans are thinking along those same lines. … At least in Europe, the Socialist leaders who so admire my opponent are up front about their objectives. They use real numbers and honest language. And we should demand equal candor from Senator Obama.
In an Oct. 22 speech in Manchester, N.H., McCain expostulated further:
Joe and guys like him will earn the wealth. Barack and politicians like him will spread it. Joe didn't really like that idea, and neither did a lot of other folks who believe that their earnings are their own. After all, before government can redistribute wealth, it has to confiscate wealth from those who earned it. And whatever the right word is for that way of thinking, the redistribution of wealth is the last thing America needs right now. In these tough economic times, we don't need government "spreading the wealth"—we need policies that create wealth and spread opportunity.

When T.R. spoke of "swollen fortunes" and "malefactors of great wealth," socialism was a genuine force in American politics, perceived by many to pose a serious threat to the social order. When T.R. first called for a "graduated income tax" in his 1907 State of the Union, he was proposing a measure that the Supreme Court had ruled unconstitutional. Indeed, the federal income tax struck down by the Court wasn't even "graduated," or progressive; it was a flat-rate tax.

Today, McCain demagogically attacks Obama's purported "socialism" knowing that socialism is a dead letter in the United States. He feigns shock at progressive taxation ("confiscate wealth") nearly a century after the states ratified the 16th Amendment, enabling Congress to enact a progressive income tax, and nearly a decade after he himself scolded a town-hall questioner on MSNBC's Hardball who cried "socialism" about the rich having to pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes. "Here's what I really believe," McCain said. "When you are—reach a certain level of comfort, there's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more."

In his book The Great Tax Wars, Steven Weisman, formerly of the New York Times, writes that T.R.'s previous experience as police commissioner of New York City made him worry "about anarchy arising from gross economic inequality." Today, the income gap between the top 0.01 percent of families in the United States and the bottom 90 percent is greater than it was in T.R.'s day. The last time it was anywhere near so great was in 1929. The top marginal income-tax rate, meanwhile, is near its historic low in the late 1920s. Those of you seeking a cause to the current financial meltdown may draw your own conclusions. (For more on taxes and historic patterns of inequality in the United States, click here.)
T.R., of course, was no socialist. Indeed, his purpose was largely to prevent socialists from coming to power. But the trust buster got called a socialist a lot more often than Obama ever will. He writes in his autobiography:
Because of things I have done on behalf of justice to the workingman, I have often been called a Socialist. Usually I have not taken the trouble even to notice the epithet. … Moreover, I know that many American Socialists are high-minded and honorable citizens, who in reality are merely radical social reformers. They are opposed to the brutalities and industrial injustices which we see everywhere about us.

T.R. then goes on to outline his strong differences "with the Marxian Socialists" and their belief in class warfare and the inevitable demise of capitalism. Later, he returns to his earlier theme:

Many of the men who call themselves socialists today are in reality merely radical social reformers, with whom on many points good citizens can and ought to work in hearty general agreement, and whom in many practical matters of government good citizens can well afford to follow.
There were, however, limits to T.R.'s tolerance. "I have always maintained," he concluded, "that our worst revolutionaries today are those reactionaries who do not see and will not admit there is any need for change."

[Jim Luttrall]

No doubt that we have socialist programs within the United States in many different forms which we have decided for better or worse is something we want.
The big sticking point in Obama's plan seems to be his plan of taking wealth from top earners and giving checks to lower income people, approximately 40% of whom pay NO taxes presently.
The only way to cut the taxes of the person who pays no tax is to give them a check, not taking less from them as in a progressive tax system, but welfare checks for those who already paid no taxes.

This is the government confiscating wealth from one group and giving it to another. This is by definition Socialism.

The question then, is not do we want socialism, but do we want to grow socialism to the point Obama envisions. While having the government take care of us from cradle to grave is the dream of some, it is a very expensive proposition which can only be financed by extreme taxes and the wealthy, contrary to popular belief, are not a limitless supply to finance the socialist programs. When you cannot finance the social programs that exist currently without a massive tax increase, why would we want to increase social programs.

Follow the money, are some in the campaigns buying votes with promises?

[Jim Luttrall]

If somebody on this chat would go up to Obama or McCain and tell one of them that they are a home inspector in a licensed state and they plan on buying a home inspection company that makes $250K a year and we found out that it was a complete lie, I think most of us would call him out. Then if he really did do home inspections without being licensed in that licensed state, many of us would be on his case if not doing more.

Poor Joe? I don't think so.

Kevin, where do you get your information?
I saw an interview with Joe, and according to him, he has worked under the license of his boss (who owns the company) for something like 14 years and is studying to take his master plumber's license. He wants to buy the business.
What is wrong with that?
Why all this negative attack on someone with ambition to become a small business owner. Is it wrong to have dreams?

[Michael Larson]

Why all this negative attack on someone with ambition to become a small business owner. Is it wrong to have dreams?Simple. They don't want to talk about the question Joe asked or the answer Obama gave.

They know they can't sell Obama's socialist plans so they attack the poor plumber instead of Obama's policy.

They understand that if they where in the position of the person making more than 250K they wouldn't want to feel the hand of someone else in their pocket either while the government pointed a gun at them to make the thief feel safe.

Dramatic yes. But most will be able to see the truth of it.

Frankly both candidates believe in a progressive tax system so it's a matter of degree as to who takes us down the road leading to Serfdom the fastest.

[Kevin Luce]

Kevin, where do you get your information?
I saw an interview with Joe, and according to him, he has worked under the license of his boss (who owns the company) for something like 14 years and is studying to take his master plumber's license. He wants to buy the business.
What is wrong with that?
Why all this negative attack on someone with ambition to become a small business owner. Is it wrong to have dreams?

I see no ambition in Joe. He has worked there for 6 years and hasn't completed anything.

Here is one of many articles that inform us that he is not a plumber, that he has no license or training that is required to be a plumber and that he's been there for 6 years. There is a lot more information in this article but it clearly shows that he lied about his situation.

Article published Thursday, October 16, 2008
SPRINGFIELD TOWNSHIP

"Joe the Plumber" isn’t a plumber — at least not a licensed one, or a registered one.

A check of state and local licensing agencies in Ohio and Michigan shows no plumbing licenses under Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher’s name, or even misspellings of his name.

According to Lucas County Building Inspection records, A. W. Newell Corp. does maintain a state plumbing license, and one with the City of Toledo, but would not be allowed to work in Lucas County outside of Toledo without a county license.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell’s license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was hired by Mr. Newell six years ago and that the possibility of him eventually buying the company was discussed during his job interview.

Mr. Wurzelbacher’s notoriety has raised the ire of Tom Joseph, business manager for Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, who claimed that Mr. Wurzelbacher didn’t undergo any apprenticeship training.

"When you have guys going out there with no training whatsoever, it’s a little disreputable to start with," Mr. Joseph said. "We’re the real Joe the Plumber."

"This individual has got no schooling, no licenses, he’s never been to a training program, union or non-union, in the United States of America," Mr. Joseph said.

The association has endorsed Barack Obama, according to Mr. Joseph.

Note: I copied the paragraphs that I felt were important to answer the question asked.

toledoblade.com -- 'Joe the plumber' isn’t licensed (http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418)

When did it become acceptable for somebody to lie about everything about themselves (He didn't lie about his name) and their situation to make a point?

[Kevin Luce]

Simple. They don't want to talk about the question Joe asked or the answer Obama gave.

If Obama was told the truth, then Obama was likely to tell Joe that his plan will work for Joe and that he will be better off since his income or the company that he talked about does not even come close to $250K.


They understand that if they where in the position of the person making more than 250K they wouldn't want to feel the hand of someone else in their pocket either while the government pointed a gun at them to make the thief feel safe.

I understand that if I knew I was going to make $250K, I would be talking to my accountant so it would show that I didn't make over $250K. Easy to do and completely legal.

[Michael Larson]

If Obama was told the truth, then Obama was likely to tell Joe that his plan will work for Joe and that he will be better off since his income or the company that he talked about does not even come close to $250K.

Which is irrelevant to the answer Obama gave.

I understand that if I knew I was going to make $250K, I would be talking to my accountant so it would show that I didn't make over $250K. Easy to do and completely legal.You think you are alone?

That is why they magic money Obama wants to find will not appear.

People will not just take it. They will find ways to avoid the tax.

[Mike Schulz]

When the tax cuts end in 2010 it will go back to the higher taxes of the Clinton years.
Joe Smo who cares, all I know is I won't try and make more then $250,000 (God knows I wish I could get close) and I think most people will look for ways to do the same. That alone will hurt growth.

[Kevin Luce]

...all I know is I won't try and make more then $250,000 (God knows I wish I could get close) and I think most people will look for ways to do the same. ...

When you do get close to $250,000, please put something away for retirement that is tax free or tax deferred. That 3% extra you will be paying for going over $250,000 might kill your business growth.:eek:

[Ted Menelly]

Rick, Hey Rick, has anyone seen Rick.

Just want to thank you Rick. Great thread starter here with 174 replies and 1,745 viewings.

Nothing like a good healthy thread to get the blood flowing and get folks interested. Just want to commend you Rick for a great post. During election time this is what should take place and help to, one way or the other, help folks to make up there mind about such an economic debate during a Presidential election.

Great job Rick.

[Mike Schulz]

Where does 3% come from. Why hasn't Obama on his campaign say it's only 3% increase. There is also indications that the threshold might be 200,000. Who knows what it will be before its over. If your paying 35% now and they keep raising it you will be giving half before it's all over with. Hell lets just throw all our money in a pot and divide equally........:cool:

Who knows once he is in office he just might want to push paying back all the African Americans for there fore fathers slavery. He has spoke of it on a radio show several years ago.

[Jerry McCarthy]

My goodness I'll be glad when this election is history and the lunacy will stop on this venue.... but will it?

[Jerry Peck]

Kevin, where do you get your information?
I saw an interview with Joe, and according to him, he has worked under the license of his boss (who owns the company) for something like 14 years and is studying to take his master plumber's license. He wants to buy the business.
What is wrong with that?
Why all this negative attack on someone with ambition to become a small business owner. Is it wrong to have dreams?

Jim,

What's wrong?

Joe The Plumber *is required* to be licensed to do what he has been doing, and he is not.

He owes back taxes. HE is "sharing your wealth".

Joe The plumber's "share the wealth" program ... share it with him. :rolleyes:

[Jerry Peck]

Where does 3% come from.

It comes from the difference between what McCain is proposing and what Obama is proposing.


Why hasn't Obama on his campaign say it's only 3% increase.

They have, but many people have closed minds and only listen and hear what they want to hear, they don't hear the news reports when they explain McCain's plan and Obama's plan, all they here is that tax cheat, unlicensed plumber's helper, harping on 'Share the Wealth" ... yeah, Joe The Plumber wants you to "Share the Wealth" ... with him.

[Jerry Peck]

My goodness I'll be glad when this election is history and the lunacy will stop on this venue.... but will it?

WC Jerry,

Can't answer you there.

With some of the recent outrageous posts, I suggested to Brain that maybe he should delete those threads.

Have not heard back from Brian, nor has he deleted them, so I'm guessing those threads will stay. :rolleyes:

:eek:

[Jim Luttrall]

Jim,

What's wrong?

Joe The Plumber *is required* to be licensed to do what he has been doing, and he is not.

He owes back taxes. HE is "sharing your wealth".

Joe The plumber's "share the wealth" program ... share it with him. :rolleyes:

According to a fairly reliable and independent source, Joe the Plumber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber)

Plumbing career
Wurzelbacher is one of two employees of a small plumbing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbing) firm, Newell Plumbing and Heating Co. of Toledo,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-realdeal-6) the company he described to Obama as making $250,000 to $280,000 per year.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-realdeal-6) Wurzelbacher said that the idea of buying the company was discussed during his job interview six years prior.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-TBlicense-4) According to MSNBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSNBC), Court records show that Wurzelbacher made $40,000 in 2006.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-toledoblade-14) Dun & Bradstreet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun_%26_Bradstreet) estimates the annual sales of A. W. Newell Corporation, the actual corporate name, at $510,000, and states it has 8 employees. [26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-25)
An Associated Press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) article reported that Wurzelbacher did not have a plumber's license or apprenticeship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprentice),[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-Yahoo-news-26) although Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Association) revealed that Wurzelbacher began an apprentice program in 2003 which did not result in completion.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-27)
Wurzelbacher actually does not need a plumbing license because he works for a plumbing corporation, which holds responsibility for licensing issues. Additionally A. W. Newell holds licenses with the State of Ohio and City of Toledo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-TBlicense-4)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-APlicense-11) Even in light of the fact that Lucas County Building Inspection records show A. W. Newell Corp. does maintain a state plumbing license, another with the City of Toledo, and none in Lucas County Ohio, Joe Wurzelbacher has no control nor responsibility in regard to this issue. Even if according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do independent plumbing work[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-28), Joe Wurzelbacher is not presently an independent plumber, meaning this is not presently a regulatory issue.

ABC News (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_News) reported on October 16 that there is a judgment lien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lien) against Wurzelbacher for non-payment of $1,182 in Ohio state income taxes dating to January 2007, but "no action has been taken against him outside of filing the lien." Barb Losie, deputy clerk of the Lucas County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_County) Court of Common Pleas, said that "there is a 99 percent chance [Wurzelbacher] doesn't know about the lien, unless he did a credit report or was ready to pay his taxes."[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-43) While on Hannity & Colmes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannity_%26_Colmes), Wurzelbacher stated that he was unaware of the tax lien prior to it being reported in the press, and felt he was being attacked because of his question of Obama.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-44)

I think the negative attention on Joe is quite simply politically motivated with no one really too worried about his tax bill or his license until he dared to question "The One"
Give the guy a break, it is not like he is running for president and lied about his connections to terrorists or anything, he just ask a question about the tax program and how it would affect him and his future dreams.

[Tony Infelise]

I understand that if I knew I was going to make $250K, I would be talking to my accountant so it would show that I didn't make over $250K. Easy to do and completely legal.

And this is exactly why his tax plan will not work. The people who thought the tax plan wouldn't affect them will wind up paying. There's no way Obama will be able to pay for all of his entitlement programs by just taxing the top 3-4% of wage earners.
To me, this is a first. I've never seen a candidate run on the platform of promising to raise taxes. Thinking it will "never happen to me" is a big mistake.

[Ted Menelly]

Great post Jim.

Personally Joe being licensed or not or having to be licensed or not does not matter one bit.

I am not sure what all the fuss about a license was. He could have been a bum off the street for all I care. Fact is he was talking about his possible future and bettering himself. Having a license or not does not have to do with a lot of businesses in a lot of states. Shoot, even if I did not have a home inspectors license I could start a home inspection business and have licensed employees under me as qualifiers. As long as no one was performing an inspection with out a license everything would be just fine.

He has been working a number of years as a plumber. What would possibly not make him qualified to own a plumbing company. You know, I did not take the time to check it out but I bet he could own the company in his state as long as he had licensed plumbers doing the work.

I hate the idea of anyone thinking for some reason that because one did not take a test than they are not qualified for something.

Yes a good portion of the time the licensed tested individual should know more but by no means makes him more qualified to do a proper job or own a company for that matter.

Enough said with all that for me. Some things just tick me off. Looking down upon anyone or thinking ones self is better than the other ones self has always pushed my buttons.

I am better than you because>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You are worthless because>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You can not know what you are doing because>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry, I get carried away some times.

[Victor DaGraca]

"Who is John Galt?"

[Jerry Peck]

According to a fairly reliable and independent source, Joe the Plumber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber)

"According to a fairly reliable and independent source," Joe in the Spotlight - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp)

An official at Local 50 of the plumber’s union, based in Toledo, said Mr. Wurzelbacher does not hold a license. He also has never served an apprenticeship and does not belong to the union. (The national plumber’s union, the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, endorsed Mr. Obama, it should be noted.)

“He’s basically playing games with the world,” Thomas Joseph, the local’s business manager, said in a telephone interview Thursday morning.

Joe The Plumber is looking for his free time in the spotlight, for his 15 minutes of fame (which he has so far stretched much beyond that). :rolleyes:

While Joe The Plumber is not running for President, he is being carried high on the shoulder's of two people who are running for President/Vice President, touting him as an example, and if Joe The Plumber is their "example" of what they want, they are totally in the wrong ballgame ... wait ... Joe The Plumber fits right in with Palin and her graft and corruption ... no wonder she holds Joe The Plumber in such high esteem. :eek:

[Ron Bibler]

And to think That darn Joe the plumber just may put McCain in the white house...:eek:

Best

Ron

[Kevin Luce]

According to a fairly reliable and independent source, Joe the Plumber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber)

Plumbing career
Wurzelbacher is one of two employees of a small plumbing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbing) firm, Newell Plumbing and Heating Co. of Toledo,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-realdeal-6) the company he described to Obama as making $250,000 to $280,000 per year.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-realdeal-6) Wurzelbacher said that the idea of buying the company was discussed during his job interview six years prior.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-TBlicense-4) According to MSNBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSNBC), Court records show that Wurzelbacher made $40,000 in 2006.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-toledoblade-14) Dun & Bradstreet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun_%26_Bradstreet) estimates the annual sales of A. W. Newell Corporation, the actual corporate name, at $510,000, and states it has 8 employees. [26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-25)
An Associated Press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) article reported that Wurzelbacher did not have a plumber's license or apprenticeship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprentice),[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-Yahoo-news-26) although Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Association) revealed that Wurzelbacher began an apprentice program in 2003 which did not result in completion.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-27)
Wurzelbacher actually does not need a plumbing license because he works for a plumbing corporation, which holds responsibility for licensing issues. Additionally A. W. Newell holds licenses with the State of Ohio and City of Toledo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-TBlicense-4)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-APlicense-11) Even in light of the fact that Lucas County Building Inspection records show A. W. Newell Corp. does maintain a state plumbing license, another with the City of Toledo, and none in Lucas County Ohio, Joe Wurzelbacher has no control nor responsibility in regard to this issue. Even if according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do independent plumbing work[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber#cite_note-28), Joe Wurzelbacher is not presently an independent plumber, meaning this is not presently a regulatory issue.


You should read their sources. I'm reading their sources different then what is written. Example: They write that Wurzelbacher actually does not need a plumbing license because he works for a plumbing corporation, which holds responsibility for licensing issues. Yet from their source it is clearly written that he does need a plumbing license. A source they used states that Joe the so called plumber commented that there are only two employees, yet for some reason I read above that there are 8 employees. Can Joe the so called plumber make that kind of mistake when he is looking at buying the company?

Source #5 is the exact same source that I posted so they must think its "fairly reliable".

I'm questioning how reliable Joe the Plumber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber) is because of what they wrote compared to what their sources say.

Here is a comment that is from the #28 source from Joe the Plumber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber)
"Even if Wurzelbacher's hypothetical were true, tax experts said it is unclear whether he would pay higher taxes under Obama's plan."

[Kevin Luce]

"According to a fairly reliable and independent source," Joe in the Spotlight - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp)

An official at Local 50 of the plumber’s union, based in Toledo, said Mr. Wurzelbacher does not hold a license. He also has never served an apprenticeship and does not belong to the union. (The national plumber’s union, the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, endorsed Mr. Obama, it should be noted.)

“He’s basically playing games with the world,” Thomas Joseph, the local’s business manager, said in a telephone interview Thursday morning.

Joe The Plumber is looking for his free time in the spotlight, for his 15 minutes of fame (which he has so far stretched much beyond that). :rolleyes:

While Joe The Plumber is not running for President, he is being carried high on the shoulder's of two people who are running for President/Vice President, touting him as an example, and if Joe The Plumber is their "example" of what they want, they are totally in the wrong ballgame ... wait ... Joe The Plumber fits right in with Palin and her graft and corruption ... no wonder she holds Joe The Plumber in such high esteem. :eek:

Agree

[Tony Infelise]

"According to a fairly reliable and independent source," Joe in the Spotlight - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp)


Wow, I stopped reading your post after the NYTimes as a "reliable and independent source" comment.

[Jerry Peck]

According to a fairly reliable and independent source, Joe the Plumber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_plumber)


"According to a fairly reliable and independent source," Joe in the Spotlight - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp)


Wow, I stopped reading your post after the NYTimes as a "reliable and independent source" comment.

Tony,

Now do you see why I used it, and even put it in "quotes"?

Jim posted based on a "reliable and independent source", so, being the good sport that I am, I also used the "reliable and independent source" headline.

Nonetheless, the information is just as good, all depends you starting viewpoint: If you are for Bush, you are for McCain, nothing will change that. If you are not for Bush, you are not for McCain, nothing will change that. (They are basically one and the same with regards to policy.) If you are for Obama, nothing is going to change that.

Which kinda makes all these political threads useless. :D

Get it? :rolleyes:

[Tony Infelise]

Which kinda makes all these political threads useless.:

Well now there's something we all can agree with.

[Michael Larson]

My my my.

All this talk about Joe the plumber instead of Obama's "spread the wealth" answer to his question.

Very telling IMHO.

Don't like the message. Kill the messenger.

Some things don't change.:(

[Kevin Luce]

I noticed this thread began talking about Joe the plumber and it looks like Ron B. started taking it in a different direction. I find it a little amusing that in post #51, he wrote that he was trying to stay out of it even though he made a few post before and many after.;)

[Kevin Luce]

:eek:

[Jerry Peck]

One of the major factors that caused the Great Depression was that Hoover raised the income tax on the "rich" from 20% to 55 %, basically the same thing Obama proposes.


Let me get this straight ...

Hoover took office in January, 1929, the depression began in 1929, and somehow "he caused it"?

None of his tax policies would have affected the wealthy until the following year at tax time ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover

Great Depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression)

"The Great Depression originated in the United States; historians most often use as a starting date the stock market crash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_market_crash) on October 29, 1929, known as Black Tuesday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Crash_of_1929)."

Stock market crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_market_crash)

"The most famous crash happened on October 29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_29), 1929 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929). "

"Forced to liquidate their stocks because of margin calls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_call), overextended investors flooded the exchange with sell orders."

"overextended investors"

Ring any bells?

[Michael Larson]

Ring any bells?
Yes the bells are ringing and apparently we have not learned from history and are doomed to repeat it.

When Hoover raised taxes it likely prolonged the very thing he was trying to repair.

When you tax the job creators and remove the incentive to put capital at risk by raising capital gains tax rates you get what you get and it isn't pretty.

We appear to be headed down the same road.

[David Banks]

We heard the same doom and gloom from the right before Clinton was elected.
I guess when your in the wrong and have nothing new you pull out the fear factor.
2 Bushes 2 recessions.

[Ted Menelly]

Not putting your comment out Dave but the recession was Ronnys doing. Bush just had to eat it. Ronny saved us from Carter but carter did't reaaly start that either. Ronny also won the cold war and put us into the trillions of deabt.

It is not one sides fault. It is both sides fault. Everyone keeps trying to keep the economy going and to do so they correct it temporarily but in the long run it hurts us in the near future.

Clinto did do a good job or should I say the dot com did a good job and linto just went along for the ride.

Bush got the brunt of the dot com fiasco and he and the rest of our wonderful goverment folks did everything they could (both sides) to keep us from going under then. The Dems took control with Bush still in office and did nothing to keep us from falling in this hole.

To put it on either side is about the most foolish thing I have heard. They are both equally involved.

As far as the talking with particular folks like anarchists. PLO lovers, crazy Pastors and just using the excuse that, "well it was just some guy, blah, blah, blah". Its a joke

I personally do not know why he picked all those associations. First one "he was just a guy......" Next one "he was just a guy...." Next one "he was just a guy......" Then blows it all off with "What we should be talking about is........"

Sorry Dave, Jerry, Jerry and who ever. Come on. I do not know what his agenda was but really, come on.

Let me see.

I was just hanging out with this crack head just to see what he might get out of smoking that stuff.

I was just hanging out with this mass murderer because I just wanted to see what turned him on about it.

I was just hangin out with this rapist because I just wanted to see why he got off on it.

Don't say it is any different. Different folks. Same damn thing.

Not throwing scare tactics and lies in here. Just absolute, pure and simple facts.

I might think McCain might and I say might be better than Obama but I do not have a closed mind to any view points.

I honestly think Obama has been on the fence way to long about what his true beliefs are. What kind of ideology he has. What he is really wanting to do.

I think his agenda has always to be president. By saying that. What the hell is up with him hanging out with folks like the ones above. YOU JUST DON'T DO THINGS LIKE THAT.

I have hung out with guys from all walks of life that more than likely did things that you more than likely don't want to know about. Well, maybe not hung out with but new by association. I was never looking to hold public office or wanted to be a lawyer or wanted to be a Senator or wanted to be President. If I was seeking any of those jobs I would have kept a whole lot further away even by association with those folks than I was.

Lets not just so blatantly just brush it under the rug.

You can have your view points, good or bad, but please, way wrong and something was truely wrong with all that. Sitting on a board that placed bombs that could have killed a serious amount of people.

YOU just don't hang out in the guys living room, sit in his college office , serve on boards with folks like that. Period. Hang out with guys that support the PLO. So what if he is a teacher at a college. The PLO blows up innocent people by strapping bombs on people. You don't sit in church praising the Lord when the guy up front is preaching stuff the Lord does not take part in. You can't say "well you know, I did'nt go to every Sunday meeting." You are going to hear that stuff from your fellow paritioners. Period. No excuses


Me personally, I just don't quite like or trust the guy or know what his agenda is for him to be president of the UNITED STATES.

[David Banks]

For people who read the liberal press:)
FRIDAY Tally Of Newspaper Endorsements -- Obama In Landslide, at 240-114 (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003875230)

[Ted Menelly]

For people who read the liberal press:)
FRIDAY Tally Of Newspaper Endorsements -- Obama In Landslide, at 240-114 (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003875230)


I think any news company/agency that puts a view point toward one candidate over the other is plane wrong.

They should report the news and what is going on with each candidate. I have never been for any news agency of any kind voicing there opinion like this. The only smart ones are the ones listed below.

CHOOSING TO MAKE NO ENDORSEMENT (21)

Abilene Reporter-News
Colorado Springs Gazette (N)
The Fairfax County Times (Virginia)
The Florida Times-Union (Jacksonville)
Fort Meyers News-Press
The Huntsville Times
The Marietta Register (Ohio)
The Morning Call (Allentown)
Mountain Home News (Idaho)
Loudoun Times Mirror (Virginia)
The Roanoke Times (Virginia)
Springfield News-Leader
The Record Searchlight (California)
Rocky Mountain News (Colorado)
St. Paul Pioneer Press
The Virginian-Pilot (Norfolk)
Waco Tribune Herald (Texas)
Indianapolis Star (B)
Ann Arbor News (B)
Fredericksburg Free-Lance Star (B)
Ventura County Star

That is what they should be doing. Reporting the news and only the news. Yes you can have individual view points at the paper or news channel but that should be balanced as far as equal reporting for each.

Just my opinion. Again, I am not for or against Rep or Dems. Just the individual that I think will do the best job. I also think that any news agency that puts anything out about any candidate that is only a snippet to fit that news agencies belief is wrong.

I also believe that any news agency who just out right lies about particular issues or again snippets to make something sound a certain way should not be allowed.

Americans want truth and only the truth. So many people are swayed by the bigger and louder a lie is on either side is what is believed.

I actually hate politics with a passion because you can just never know what is really the whole truth about any candidate.

If folks just watched CNN or Fox and believed just what they heard on what channel they was watching would be a pretty twisted way to live life. The Mass media is Democratically inclined until one party or the other will be hurting them and then they will spout info in the other direction.

Three major news teams were kicked off of Obamas plane because they led more toward McCain. Please. Give me a break. He only wants the news folk that follow his ways reporting news from his plane. Yup, that is real balanced. He just want glassed over eyes staring up at him and believing only what he is spewing out. What a serious joke and sham that is.

Just plane Ole just do not like him.

[Don Sweet]

Right on Bibler...

Pray the Democracy prevails.

Don

[Rick Hurst]

Its typical of the news media. Always have leaned towards the Democratic side just like the Hollywood folks.

Fox had a report last night showing that most of the newspapers and other tv news showed favoritism towards Osama.

Most of the stories done on Obama were positive, yet stories on McCain were only shown in a negative manner.

Anything negative on Obama not discussed as much.

Go figure.

Here's a link for the story.

The Color of News | Project for Excellence in Journalism (PEJ) (http://journalism.org/node/13436)

Cable -- Three Different Networks, Three Different Perspectives | Project for Excellence in Journalism (PEJ) (http://journalism.org/node/13437)

rick

[Kevin Luce]

I would think the big news media would be for Republicans (if for any reason is to prevent paying more taxes). What did the Republicans do to piss them off so much? Had to be a lot of things or something big.

Obama just made his speech down the road from me tonight. I don't know how many were there but it was a lot (wife just told me 40,000). One lady was soo excited that she passed out about a minute after Obama started speaking. Obama was asking for a EMT for her.

In this area, it is clear that many people voting for McCain are mad at Obama and the people that are voting for Obama are excited because of Obama.

Zoom is nice on a camera.

[Jerry Peck]

Me personally, I just don't quite like or trust the guy or know what his agenda is for him to be president of the UNITED STATES.


I completely and totally agree ... you are talking about McCain, right? :p

[Jerry Peck]

Its typical of the news media. Always have leaned towards the Democratic side just like the Hollywood folks.

Fox had a report last night showing that most of the newspapers and other tv news showed favoritism towards Osama.

By the way, your mind is so warped, you keep saying "Osama". With that being the case (remember, YOU STARTED IT with keeping on keeping on using that reference) ... McCain is a commie, did you know that? Yep, He hung around with them and kept their company for about 5 years. And that is a well know FACT, even he publicizes it. You want more, keep it up.

And FOX is a conservative nut house ... does that mean the conservative media is now backing Obama? :)

Dang, who woulda thought that? :D


Most of the stories done on Obama were positive, yet stories on McCain were only shown in a negative manner.

Anything negative on Obama not discussed as much.

Go figure.

Ever consider there may be a reason for that?

McCain tells you NOTHING about what he is going to do, all he does is bad mouth Obama. Tell me ... what is so positive about that? :rolleyes:

Obama, on the other hand, tells you what he is going to do. Likewise, tell me ... what is so negative about that?

:p :D

[Jack Feldmann]

"YOU just don't hang out in the guys living room, sit in his college office , serve on boards with folks like that. Period"

While I was reading through this thread, I got to this line from Ted, and I had a thought.

I served on the Board of Directors of ASHI for three years. There were three sets of Officers, and 15 Directors came and went. During those three years, I sat in the Board Room, and worked on committees with some people that I really didn't care for. There were some that I had no respect for, and disagreed with just about everything they stood for.

However, my time on the Board of Directors was not about how I felt about some of these guys, it was about ASHI. I put aside my personal feelings and went about the business of trying to make ASHI a better organization.

I didn't have to pal around with these guys after the meeting. I didn't have to even talk to them outside of the board room.

I can easily see how someone can serve on a BOD's or committee and not have a close relationship with another member.

[Ted Menelly]

"YOU just don't hang out in the guys living room, sit in his college office , serve on boards with folks like that. Period"

While I was reading through this thread, I got to this line from Ted, and I had a thought.

I served on the Board of Directors of ASHI for three years. There were three sets of Officers, and 15 Directors came and went. During those three years, I sat in the Board Room, and worked on committees with some people that I really didn't care for. There were some that I had no respect for, and disagreed with just about everything they stood for.

However, my time on the Board of Directors was not about how I felt about some of these guys, it was about ASHI. I put aside my personal feelings and went about the business of trying to make ASHI a better organization.

I didn't have to pal around with these guys after the meeting. I didn't have to even talk to them outside of the board room.

I can easily see how someone can serve on a Board's or committee and not have a close relationship with another member.

My other point, but not expressed was What are any of these extreme radicals in all three case doing in the position that they have.

A bomber

A racist anti American Pastor

A PLO supporter.

Don't you think that those points should be keeping those folks from these positions

Jack

All due respect but these are not light points. They cannot be brushed under the rug.

Lets take it to the extreme. Were any of the folks on the board you were on as whacked as any of these folks. If they were, were they teaching college students. Where they preaching in front of a bunch of parishioners about racist and Anti American beliefs. If they were sitting there listening to this just once, why did they not go to the churches elders and do something about it. Why are the colleges hiring these other folks.

Lets go to the extreme again. Lets say that one of these teaching extremists was a perv. Would you want this perv spouting off about his desires in life.

These teachers are teaching radical beliefs. All of them. I would like to interview any of the students and ask them if they know what all these folks are about. The positions they held in life. We are talking blowing people up. Innocent people. people that had nothing to do with even their government acts. Praising these folks for the acts they have done. One saying a several years ago that he had done more bombing. Her is teaching people. The preacher was one that was looked up to by the parishioners and as you may well know a lot of church folks take to heart every word that the pastor is preaching.

I understand where you are coming from Jack and respect your view but I just don't get why anyone would find any of these actions OK just as long as you are not going out to dinner with them, having discussions with them, in meetings with them. Especially one in Obamas agendas in life.

He not once has said that he thought the bomber was a a foolish piece of crap and his bomb placements could have killed a multitude of innocent Americans for some absolute asinine belief that he thought it was a good thing to do and wish he had done more.

How about the radical PLO lover. I never once heard him say that he said to the guy that he was a useless piece of radical crap for supporting an organization that does the kind of things that they do. Killing innocent children. These people and others like them go into neighborhoods and fire rockets on innocent people so when those people respond and fire back on those positions more innocent people get killed.

Again Jack I respect your views what ever they might be but if I new you were one of these folks I would not be sitting on a board with you. I would be doing everything I could to get you removed. I would never venture to your living room. If you were a teacher of youth and I new you were one of these folks and any were locally near me I would be doing everything I could to get you removed.

Why do you think that in some licensing professions that if you are a time served convicted felon they do not give you a license where you will be in a position to be alone in somes ones home. Sometimes in some case I feel differently about that rule due to what someone was convicted for. Everyone can (most folks) renewed in life and can see the error of there ways. But if they don't see the error of there ways and still spew the same crap out of there mouths, they are certainly not reformed and should not be in particular positions. These people are certainly not reform by any standards of human beliefs.

Oh well, enough of my spewing.

Sorry about that. Some things just are not right in life and these three folks fall into that category. They are the slugs in life that should have salt poured on them and be dissolved.

Just my opinion

Gotta do the smiley thing :) :) :) :) :)

[Don Sweet]

Hey, I was wondering, who would ever vote for a Sheriff candidate that had long-time ties with organized crime figures, cocaine dealers (pushers) and pimps?

Go figure.

Don

[Jerry Peck]

Hey, I was wondering, who would ever vote for a Sheriff candidate that had long-time ties with organized crime figures, cocaine dealers (pushers) and pimps?


Sure would put that Sheriff in a good position to know who did what and where they were. :)

Then again, maybe you need to read up on "long-time ties" and understand the situation better. :rolleyes:

[Jack Feldmann]

I have to plead ignorance on some of this. I really dont take the time to listen to all of the stuff floating out there.
I don't know much at all about the preacher.

From what I understand (and this is a very limited amount I want to add) is that Ayers did all of this terrorist stuff many years ago. I keep hearing it happened when Obabma was 8 years old. For what ever reason, he appears to be living a normal life now days, and is a college professor - correct?

I obviously do not know all of the details or facts, and probably lots of other people don't either. I know that the McCain people are painting him as an active terrorist and trying to link Obama to the terrorist activities.

However on the other side, I do know these facts about Palin

While mayor in Wasilla she decided to build a $15M hockey arena for a town with a $20M budget. She OK'd a bond issue for the project before they had secured land for it. The city ended up paying 6 times the original market price and the city had to seize it under eminent domain. How did she end up apying for it? She increased the city sales tax 25%.

Here is another factoid. Alaska (under Gov Palin) ranks #1 infederal spending per resident ($13,950) even as it sits just 18th in federal taxes paid per resident ($5,434. That means that all of us non-Alaskan tax payers spend $8,500 per year on each and every resident of Alaska.

There has been a buzz lately about Palin taking her kids on trips at taxpayers expense. Did you know that she did not sell the Sate's private jet on E-bay, but instead sold it to a campaign contributor at a $600,000 loss? He is now seeking $50,000 in taxpayer money for maintenance.

Brige to nowhere? She was againsyt it she says, but took the govt money anyway, and didn't return it.

Her pastor is a whacko himself.

Never had a passport until 2007.

As Gov she has sought travel reimbursement for 312 nights she spent at home.

Wasilla had 42 meth busts in a year.

She served until 2005 as director of a fund raising group with Ted Stevens - indicted Sen.

She claims she began a $40B nat. gas pipeline to help lead America to energy independence, yet federal approval is YEARS away, no pipe has been laid and the State could end up paying the contractor $500M even if it never breaks ground on the project.

No one seems to talk about what a moral cripple McCain is. Sure he gets shot down in VietNam. Forget that any other pilot would have been grounded after crashing 3 planes. And I agree it was horrible for him to be a POW - no doubt.

But he comes home to the wife that stood by him and starts courting his new wife while still married. Seems the old wife, gained some weight and was no longer the trophy he left. Marries the super rich trophy wife druggie.


I guess the analogy of the ASHI BOD's was not a fair one, since the guys on the board were just jerks (IMHO) and not really all that bad if yiou come right down to it. I guess if they were prevs, drug dealers, or known criminals, then, yes, I would be moving to remove them, or quit myself.

Maybe this stuff I read about Palin is not ALL true. Maybe the stuff I read about McCain is not ALL true. Maybe all the stuff I heard about Obama is not ALL true. I really don't know, nor do I think that any of us REALLY do.

Here is what I do know - for a fact.
I was much better off in the Clinton Years.
The Bush administration has been the most disappointing I have ever witnessed.
I never understood the whole war thing, or WMD, and why we were in Irag and not going after Bin Laden. It just never made much sense to me.
Cheney and Haliburton scare the hell out of me.

While I may have voted for McCain during the last election, and maybe this one...I can not support his decision to have Palin as VP. If he would have picked someone else, he may have had my vote.

While he says he is a Maverick, I really feel that if he is elected, it will be 4 more years of Bush, and I just have a big problem with that.

I already voted for Obabma, this dialog makes no difference to me.

I really hope that no matter who is elected, they will change things and pull this country back into focus. My other BIG worry, is what Bush will do between November and January.

My Mother told me she voted for "that black guy". She is so PC it's not funny. I know she must have been swayed by my Sister's visit a few weeks ago. My sister is very conservative and I dont think has voted Democratic ever, said she was voting for Obama. I almost spit out my drink when she told me.

Oh well, back to the fray..........

[Don Sweet]

A wise (intelligent) man once told me, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

LMAO.

Don

[Ted Menelly]

I have picked on both sides myself if you look back at the posts. I certainly won't try to defend McCain or Obama. I will be patriotic and defend any president that steps into the office.

If for no other reason. Being the leading nation of the world and looked upon for help from every nation in the world for one reason or another and having the strongest military and economy in the world, I feel sorry and also have great respect for any President of the united states.

Just 4 years as president will age one mentally 5 fold not to mention physically.

The only thing I will defend Palin on is the amount of federal spending. Most of it is automatic because of its shear mass a territory and so few folks live there. I guess if you think of what we bought it from the Russians for it is worth it.

As far as Pailin, Bush, McCain, Obama being singularly responsible for any spending in their state or the nation is ludicrous. There are a tremendous amount of people behind every decision even as a city or town Mayor.

Yes Jack, a lot of the things about Obama, McCain, Palin and Biden are true and a lot are either not true or seriously stretched.

I just hope that no matter which party gets elected they do not go from no regulation to government bound up complete regulation. Either direction to far is bad. Either party to far to the left or right is bad.

As far as the Clinton years versus the Bush years I was reasonably in good shape during both runs. I really did not see much of a difference at all. It was past do for a hard recession/correction. We breezed thru the end/beginning of Clinton Bush and should have been whacked really hard. The combined efforts of both the dems and Rep over the last 8 years kept us going pretty good but it just put off the natural correction that should have taken place.

And on that note.
God bless the American people and the good Ole US of A