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Mike Schulz
10-28-2008, 02:55 PM
COPIED

Redistribution in Practical Application
Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read
"Vote Obama, I need the money." I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a "Obama 08" tie, again I
laughed as he had given away his political preference -- just imagine
the coincidence.

When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him
that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside.
The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the
server inside as I've decided he could use the money more The homeless
guy was grateful.

At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I
realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn,
but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn
even though the actual recipient deserved money more.

I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in
concept than in practical application

Ted Menelly
10-28-2008, 03:24 PM
Spread the wealth huh. Hmmm, let me think. Yup, you, the Jerrys and Jims and Ricks can pass a little of your wealth to me and then you can all say you already participated :)

Rick Hurst
10-28-2008, 03:35 PM
Ted,

Your check is in the mail. :cool:

I was out your way today, could have dropped it off I guess. Had an inspection over there near the Miller Brewery off 35W. The Mrs. Bairds Bakery next door smelled great though.

Hour out there and an hour back. 2.5hrs at the house, 1 hr. on the report.
I'm going back to work at Chippendales.

rick

Ted Menelly
10-28-2008, 03:41 PM
Ted,

Your check is in the mail. :cool:

I was out your way today, could have dropped it off I guess. Had an inspection over there near the Miller Brewery off 35W. The Mrs. Bairds Bakery next door smelled great though.

Hour out there and an hour back. 2.5hrs at the house, 1 hr. on the report.
I'm going back to work at Chippendales.

rick

I have one down there on Thursday. I know what you mean about the time involved with the travel. You must be pretty slow if you are coming all the way over here.

Forget about the check. I want cash. I want as much going into my own pocket as possible. If you give me a check you will be throwing some money away cause I'll get taxed on it.

Oh, I am sorry. You want to spread the wealth around :) Well shoot if you give me cash I will make sure I keep it all and I'll give your gran babies a cut :D

Mike Schulz
10-28-2008, 03:49 PM
I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in
concept than in practical application

It say's it sounds good on paper to those that favor it but in practice it sucks. I don't like the concept and hope to God that people wake up and smell the roses before there pockets get hit by the Obama train.

Rick Hurst
10-28-2008, 03:50 PM
It was one of those friends of the family type deals. Their son was buying a home and they knew me. I couldn't tell them no. They have sent me a ton of referrals over the years.

You said "shoot". Here's a game for you Ted.

Shoot em up.

rick

Southbank - Turkey Shoot (http://www.southbank-design.co.uk/turkeyshoot/index.htm)

Ted Menelly
10-28-2008, 03:57 PM
9875 score. If it wasn't a shot gun I would have missed a lot more.

Michael Thomas
10-28-2008, 04:41 PM
All taxation involves redistribution, How people feel about it (except for the most extreme sorts of “Taxation is Theft” libertarians) depends on where it’s being redistributed to - but whether it goes to a defense contractor, a rural health clinic or to pay the emergency bill for the 20th emergency room visit for chronic alcoholic, it’s all still “redistribution” of your money to somebody else.

How much redistribution, and to whom, is a matter for the voters to decide. I don’t like a lot of the redistributive spending decisions made by our elected representatives, but as long as I want to live here I’ve got to pay my taxes along with everyone else, and my option if I want to change public policy is to do so by altering their behavior. And looking at the world’s present governments, it appears that the alternatives are authoritarian kleptocracy or economic and social anarchy.

However, the diner's decision not to tip the server and donate to the homeless person is not "redistribution" in this sense (see below), it's someting else.

For example, you can regard it as a decision about how to practice charity as he or she has no legal obligation to tip the server and/or drop a dollar in the beggars cup.

And for the diner to be making the point they (apparently) feel they are making in this anecdote this has to be the case: having no obligation to either party, neither the waiter or the homeless person has reason to be upset if the diner prefers the other, and the diner is solely responsible for making the choice and either choice is equally reasonable.

However, you can also regard tipping the server as a matter of an informal but widely recognized economic contract: I provide you with good service, you provide me with additional income.

Not everyone observes the contract, some servers believe a tip is their due for poor service, and some people who refuse to tip no matter how good the service.

And for the contract to be effective (that is to be a fair exchange) people have to be somewhat altruistic: I tip up for good service at a restaurant in a strange city which I will never return, and the server (hopefully) provides me with good service without knowing in advance whether or not I will tip, or not.

Nevertheless, the arrangement is advantageous enough so it is widely practiced with sufficient regularity so it works the mutual advantage of both parties.

So when the diner violates the terms of his informal contract with the server, he or she is not practicing “redistribution” in the sense of following a formal or informal set of agreed-upon rules, instead he or she is engaging in act of economic anarchy, subverting a system of agreed-upon rules to the detriment of both the informal parties to the contract.

Billy Stephens
10-28-2008, 05:33 PM
.
I'm going back to work at Chippendales.
.

rick
.
There is a Big Demand for ELVIS Impersonators. :D
.Did I say big? :eek:
.

Jerry Peck
10-28-2008, 05:40 PM
McCain's own "spread the wealth" program (and not his only one).

"A major area of contrast is prescription drug coverage, also known as Medicare Part D, which Congress passed in 2003. McCain opposed it then, saying "we didn't have a single way of paying for it."

Now he argues Medicare could save $2 billion a year by making wealthier recipients - say, those making more than $80,000, pay for a larger share of their own drugs."

I watched this on TV tonight, and found it on the internet for you McCain lovers who think your money will be safe with McCain. :rolleyes:

How Obama And McCain Differ On Medicare, CBS Evening News: How The Candidates Propose To Fix The Ailing Program - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/28/eveningnews/main4554544.shtml)

For each Obama story there is a matching, and usually worse, McCain story.

Joe The Plumber is an embarrassment to REAL plumbers, according to the local union, no training, not licensed and, by the way, Joe The Plumber *IS* required to be licensed, does not pay his taxes, has not idea of how or when he would be able to buy his bosses company, and 'him and his boss talking about him buying the company' - during his job interview, not much since then.

McCain holding Joe The Plumber up like he is an upstanding citizen, and he is a tax cheat, a dead beat who owes back taxes ... now ... *who do you think is "spreading the wealth"? Joe The Plumber ... from all taxpayers to himself.

Guess he is following good examples for swindling the government: Two shining stars from Alaska - Palin and Stevens.

You guys supporting McCain have no idea what kind of puppy you are backing - don't want another 'W'? You'd be getting one with McCain - he himself has said that he has backed 'W' more than 90% of the time, more than most other Republicans, that 'W' and his policies are 'on the right track'.

McCain's own "Share the Wealth" programs. :rolleyes:

:p

Trent Tarter
10-28-2008, 06:41 PM
McCain has my vote, signed, sealed, and delivered!! GO McCain-Palin.

David Banks
10-28-2008, 06:43 PM
Share the wealth. McCain says it!
YouTube - ZOMFG! John McCain Is A Socialist! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM)

wayne soper
10-28-2008, 06:53 PM
Personally Mike, as a past waiter, I would have redistributed a few of the eggs in the walkin to your car as you were driving away.
Never screw with anyone who handles your food.
I used to have a great 80 yard lob shot.:D
Save the tip? PAy the car wash!!
Now, the fact that you would rather give your money to someone who dosen't deserve it rather than someone who does just puts you right in line with McCains hopes of giving our money to people who don't deserve it.
I'm not saying Obama is the next coming, but anyone who would put up a ditz women, hoping to cover the female vote, just because they will never get the black vote is just stupid beyond belief.
WE have already bought her and her family a new wardrobe at 150G's and she hasn't even won yet.

wayne soper
10-28-2008, 06:57 PM
Hey Billy, Theres a little more than wealth getting spread around down there.:eek: That's as close to a gagging smily as I could find:D

Billy Stephens
10-28-2008, 07:08 PM
Hey Billy, Theres a little more than wealth getting spread around down there.:eek: That's as close to a gagging smily as I could find:D
.

:D Youse Yankees Just Don't Appreciate Fine Art. :D
* but not in this case.
.

Ted Menelly
10-28-2008, 07:09 PM
Man am I getting blurry eyed reading all these post in all the threads.


Jerry P

Not saying anything against or for any of your post but this one thing.

Don't you think someone who pulls in 80,000.00 a year every year should be paying for their own drugs anyway. Seriously, again not picking at things but Don't you think????

I have a serious problem going to the doctors office or the hospital (only when I was about half dead or worse) and seeing folks in there sucking up there medical insurance cause they got a wittle sniffl. It makes me sick that they are tying up the doctors office and emergency rooms and driving medical insurance cost up and then do nothing but complain about how high there medical insurance is.

Oh my honey. You got a wittle boo boo. Why don't you run down the doctors and get that taken care of. That wittle paper cut could get infected baby.

Please. Talk about making me want to throw up.

Then the argument comes back

BUT I AM PAYING FOR IT ALREADY. No, that is in case you really do need it. Not to pamper ones little back side.

Ron Bibler
10-28-2008, 07:26 PM
I payout $ 800 a month for insurance. when i see the Doc there is always someone in front of me with a get in free card. with 6 kids running all over the Duds office.

Best

Ron

Ron Bibler
10-28-2008, 07:28 PM
.
There is a Big Demand for ELVIS Impersonators. :D
.Did I say big? :eek:
.


Billy stop you are killing me... L.O.L L.O.L. L.O.L.

Best

Ron

Jerry Peck
10-28-2008, 07:38 PM
Don't you think someone who pulls in 80,000.00 a year every year should be paying for their own drugs anyway. Seriously, again not picking at things but Don't you think????


Likewise, ... :D ... Someone making more than $250,000 per year should be paying more than the person making $40,000 per year, percentage-wise? "Don't you think???"

'Percentage-wise' is what you are saying is good for those seniors making over $80,000 k per year. :p

BOTH are "spreading the wealth" and that is only fair.

Look are your tax forms, the more you make, the higher the percentage the tax rate is ... until you hit the big time ... then you can afford to hire people to keep your tax rate as low as possible.

I had clients who's income taxes were over $2 mil per year ... friggin' INCOME TAX ... OVER $2 mil per year.

They complained to me about it, until I offered to switch my income and my taxes for their income and their taxes ... :cool: ... suddenly ... they did not really see a problem paying their taxes and not having my income. :rolleyes:

Ted Menelly
10-28-2008, 08:03 PM
Likewise, ... :D ... Someone making more than $250,000 per year should be paying more than the person making $40,000 per year, percentage-wise? "Don't you think???"

'Percentage-wise' is what you are saying is good for those seniors making over $80,000 k per year. :p

BOTH are "spreading the wealth" and that is only fair.

Look are your tax forms, the more you make, the higher the percentage the tax rate is ... until you hit the big time ... then you can afford to hire people to keep your tax rate as low as possible.

I had clients who's income taxes were over $2 mil per year ... friggin' INCOME TAX ... OVER $2 mil per year.

They complained to me about it, until I offered to switch my income and my taxes for their income and their taxes ... :cool: ... suddenly ... they did not really see a problem paying their taxes and not having my income. :rolleyes:

Ron hit it pretty good but If you read my other post its says I get sick every time I see someone with a little sniffle plugging up the doctors office and emergency rooms sucking up as much as they can of there insurance instead of using it when it is really needed. The cost of medical and drugs and especially insurance are going thru the roof because of people like that.

Someone wrote about the illegal aliens running up the medical costs with their unjust usage of our medical system. Yeah yeah I understand about cheap labor but come on. When they walk into the emergency room for service of what ever might be ailing them and cannot produce an ID stating that they are an American citizen then sure, help them and then call immigration so they can go back to their own country for follow up so the poor woman with six kids and her husband died can get good medical for her flock.

The double standards with all this garbage is what is killing this country.

The tax thing. Well I am getting more and more for a flat tax on everyone. This way everyone pays FIT and all to the same proportion. If you make 20,000 then you pay 2,000. If you make 2 million then you pay 200,000. If you make 200,000,000 then you pay 20,000,000.

No write offs. No loop holes. no scamming. Medicaid and Medicare and SS should be one flat percentage. No write offs, no scamming. No loopholes.

As far as what that percentage should be I will let the brain children in the world figure that one out. the 10% on the flat FIT was just a picked figure.

Imagine that. No more gonna give these folks a break or those folks a break. No black, no white, no redskin Italians like me. I am not talking about business I am talking personal income.

As far as business goes. After all overhead is paid (material, labor, rent, insurance etc, etc) a flat set amount should be picked for any business as well. If they make 2,000 after all that or 200,000,000,000 after all that it should be a simple flat percentage that taxes are paid on.

Kevin Barre
10-28-2008, 08:14 PM
I've tried to stay out of this as much as possible, but I can't help myself any longer. There are many people on this forum whose opinions I respect, but some I can't. At least, not those views that are political. For those who think McCain is not perfect, I state this right now: I AGREE.

However...

For those who support Obama, I humbly offer a few observations. First, consider that Obama is the junior Senator from Illinois. Prior to that he was a "community organizer." (I can hear it now...Obama graduated from Harvard!
Congrats...but GWB graduated from Yale. So which is better?)
OK, just what has Obama done that qualifies him for the presidency? His supporters love to paint Sarah Palin as unqualified for the VICE Presidency. Maybe so. But in all fairness, at least she held some elected offices, including that of GOVERNOR. I do find it interesting that they don't publicly proclaim Senator McCain as unqualified for the presidency.
I might remind the Democrats that their beloved Bill Clinton had only the experience as a governor (of the small state of Arkansas: my home) prior to assuming the presidency. (I would also remind you as you point out the economic benefits under his tenure that he had the benefit of "serving" as President under a largely Republican-controlled Congress.)
Unfortunately, Obama's supporters conveniently ignore his lack of experience. So just what qualifies him for the presidency? (Other than the desire to see George W gone?)

Really, what has he done?

Those of us of a certain age (I'm 48) remember the last Democratic candidate expected to lead us out of an economic downturn following a Republican presidency: Jimmy Carter.

Who fixed the deep mess that Carter left us? Ronald Reagan.

It's fortunate for Obama that a record number of young voters are registered. It's unfortunate for those of us who want to work for a living and keep what we earn that these young voters who weren't alive during the late 70's have such a poor grasp of recent history that anything pre-iPod doesn't register with them. ( If you think I'm wrong, just watch an episode of Jaywalking on the Tonight Show. Scary.)
Those of us who remember former President Carter also remember the 20% mortgage rates that damn near totally killed our economy -- and the embarrassing foreign affairs fiascoes that temporarily emasculated the country. Let's not forget that the success of the Iranian hostage situation helped cultivate the belief among terrorists that they could strike us without fear. Don't believe me? Remember the ugly Somalia incident immortalized in film as "Black Hawk Down"? That was in 1993, under Clinton's watch. Did our response to that teach anyone not to mess with the US? Of course not.
OK, I digress. But the point is that an ineffectual can't-we-just-talk-it-out Commander In Chief will embolden those who wish to see the US fall. It's that simple. The world stage is not an episode of The View. The fact is that there will always be leaders and other powerful citizens of foreign countries who have their own agendas to push. Agendas which will be better served without the US in the way. It's not being imperialistic to merely defend our own interests.

So, back on topic again, please tell me...exactly what has Obama accomplished as junior Senator from Illinois that makes him so qualified to be President? What bills has he sponsored with any other real support? What important committees has he served on and made a meaningful contribution to? Anyone...Anyone? My apologies to younger readers who may not remember this allusion to the scene from Ferris Bueller's Day Off from 1986.

Here's a relevant bit of info on the bills he's sponsored recently. Obama's Senate Record: 110th Congress (http://uspolitics.about.com/b/2008/09/05/obamas-senate-record-110th-congress.htm)

Anyone see anything of real importance there? I sure don't. Also, look into Obama's association with William Ayers, an admitted domestic terrorist who bombed multiple targets as part of the Weather Underground, and who stated that his only regret was that he had not bombed more. Look into the association with the "reverend" Jeremiah Wright. (Sorry, I can't bring myself to capitalize "reverend" when referring to someone who is the moral equivalent of a KKK leader.) And look at the contributions that Obama has pulled in through the years from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Can you honestly think this is only a Republican issue? Don't kid yourselves. Obama sucked in a LOT of dollars from the mortgage industry well before the collapse. PLEASE read this and other related information:Obama's Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac Connection-Truth! (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-contributions-2.htm)

Then judge for yourselves. But before you are too quick to embrace "change", ask yourselves if it really is change for the better -- or even change at all. It is my opinion that Obama is merely a demagogue -- the (somewhat) sanitized 21st century version of Huey P. Long.

If you want to argue with me, I probably won't reply. Seriously. I realize that many of you have decided who you are going to vote for, and reason and factual information won't matter. Fine; that's your choice in a free country. However, don't try to rebut my statements UNLESS you cite factual sources. Don't give me opinions without any supporting facts. I can't debate/educate everyone out there, and I am not interested in doing so. In reality, I am VERY far from a political animal. I simply find it hard to believe that we are at this point..

Jerry Peck
10-28-2008, 10:33 PM
OK, just what has Obama done that qualifies him for the presidency? His supporters love to paint Sarah Palin as unqualified for the VICE Presidency. Maybe so. But in all fairness, at least she held some elected offices, including that of GOVERNOR. I do find it interesting that they don't publicly proclaim Senator McCain as unqualified for the presidency.


There are two well qualified people running for President.

There is one well qualified person running for Vice President.

For those how think McCain and Palin are the answer, ask yourselves just what Palin would do as President ... and you thought Bush as a disaster and embarrassment to the country?

Palin would be only one 72 year old heart beat away from the Presidency.

Nothing coming up this next week for Halloween is anywhere near as scary as that. :eek:

Talk about Obama 'not being qualified because ...' and you are back in your own face.

Did the American people deserve to have an idiot elected in 2000? An *UNQUALIFIED IDIOT*?

There are a lot of Republicans and Alaskans who are endorsing Obama.

Colin Powell: Colin Powell endorses Obama, says Palin unqualified, defends Muslim-Americans | Countdown to Crawford | Los Angeles Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/10/colin-powell-a.html)

Anchorage Daily News: Roy Greenslade: Alaska's main paper backs Obama over Palin | Media | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2008/oct/27/us-elections-2008-sarah-palin)

SATURDAY TRIBUNE - News (http://www.tribune.com.ng/25102008/news/news6.html)

Chris Brown's Blog: Will More Republicans Endorse Obama? (http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/Chris%20Brown/blog/&blogId=4963)

Ron Bibler
10-28-2008, 11:10 PM
Kevin Barre. Excellent post. A+

Jerry Peck Very poor work F- I know you can do better.:)

Ted Menelly Excellence post A+

Billy Stephens Excellence post A+

wayne soper Bad additude C- have a nice day:)

David Banks No copying please D

Trent Tarter Work harder on you post C. :rolleyes:

Michael Thomas Good points A

Rick Hurst Good points A

Mike Schulz Good points A




Best:D

Ron

Mike Schulz
10-29-2008, 06:09 AM
Jerry are you kidding me.
Your worried about Palin being unqualified and not Obama. It's funny how lefty's look right over the facts as Kevin stated.

Do you really think Obama won't hit your pocket book. All Democrats that ran on no new taxes, raised taxes.
Do you think the taxes are going to help the poor. It just a new revenue stream for them. Look at all the programs that are in place. They are abused. Fix those don't make more.

Obama harps on how much the war cost, but wants to pull the troops and hit Pakistan..........How much is that going to cost us.

Quit reading the media hype and look at the facts. I would rather have McCain at the helm against the towel heads then Obama. He'll just throw money at them.

Jim Robinson
10-29-2008, 07:09 AM
Anyone who thinks this country is in a position to lower your taxes is delusional, regardless of how much money you make. We are in no financial position to lower anyone's taxes. We'll be lucky if taxes stay the same and the government can lower spending. These tax plans are both election year promises that can be proposed to congress, but have absolutely no guarantee of being passed or implemented.

Jerry Peck
10-29-2008, 07:32 AM
Quit reading the media hype and look at the facts.

I suggest you do the same.


I would rather have McCain at the helm against the towel heads then Obama. He'll just throw money at them.

"towel heads"

Obviously, though, you are one of those who think that it they are not 'like you', 'they are no good'.

I sure hope that McCain is happy for support from idiots who think like that and call people things like that. :rolleyes:

What you do call a black person? A N.......?

How about a disabled person? A cripple?

I think you need to look in the mirror then look at the people in this country around you ... YOU may be the weird looking one. :eek:

David Banks
10-29-2008, 07:32 AM
I've tried to stay out of this as much as possible, but I can't help myself any longer. There are many people on this forum whose opinions I respect, but some I can't. At least, not those views that are political. For those who think McCain is not perfect, I state this right now: I AGREE.

However...

For those who support Obama, I humbly offer a few observations. First, consider that Obama is the junior Senator from Illinois. Prior to that he was a "community organizer." (I can hear it now...Obama graduated from Harvard!
Congrats...but GWB graduated from Yale. So which is better?)
OK, just what has Obama done that qualifies him for the presidency? His supporters love to paint Sarah Palin as unqualified for the VICE Presidency. Maybe so. But in all fairness, at least she held some elected offices, including that of GOVERNOR. I do find it interesting that they don't publicly proclaim Senator McCain as unqualified for the presidency.
I might remind the Democrats that their beloved Bill Clinton had only the experience as a governor (of the small state of Arkansas: my home) prior to assuming the presidency. (I would also remind you as you point out the economic benefits under his tenure that he had the benefit of "serving" as President under a largely Republican-controlled Congress.)
Unfortunately, Obama's supporters conveniently ignore his lack of experience. So just what qualifies him for the presidency? (Other than the desire to see George W gone?)

Really, what has he done?

Those of us of a certain age (I'm 48) remember the last Democratic candidate expected to lead us out of an economic downturn following a Republican presidency: Jimmy Carter.

Who fixed the deep mess that Carter left us? Ronald Reagan.

It's fortunate for Obama that a record number of young voters are registered. It's unfortunate for those of us who want to work for a living and keep what we earn that these young voters who weren't alive during the late 70's have such a poor grasp of recent history that anything pre-iPod doesn't register with them. ( If you think I'm wrong, just watch an episode of Jaywalking on the Tonight Show. Scary.)
Those of us who remember former President Carter also remember the 20% mortgage rates that damn near totally killed our economy -- and the embarrassing foreign affairs fiascoes that temporarily emasculated the country. Let's not forget that the success of the Iranian hostage situation helped cultivate the belief among terrorists that they could strike us without fear. Don't believe me? Remember the ugly Somalia incident immortalized in film as "Black Hawk Down"? That was in 1993, under Clinton's watch. Did our response to that teach anyone not to mess with the US? Of course not.
OK, I digress. But the point is that an ineffectual can't-we-just-talk-it-out Commander In Chief will embolden those who wish to see the US fall. It's that simple. The world stage is not an episode of The View. The fact is that there will always be leaders and other powerful citizens of foreign countries who have their own agendas to push. Agendas which will be better served without the US in the way. It's not being imperialistic to merely defend our own interests.

So, back on topic again, please tell me...exactly what has Obama accomplished as junior Senator from Illinois that makes him so qualified to be President? What bills has he sponsored with any other real support? What important committees has he served on and made a meaningful contribution to? Anyone...Anyone? My apologies to younger readers who may not remember this allusion to the scene from Ferris Bueller's Day Off from 1986.

Here's a relevant bit of info on the bills he's sponsored recently. Obama's Senate Record: 110th Congress (http://uspolitics.about.com/b/2008/09/05/obamas-senate-record-110th-congress.htm)

Anyone see anything of real importance there? I sure don't. Also, look into Obama's association with William Ayers, an admitted domestic terrorist who bombed multiple targets as part of the Weather Underground, and who stated that his only regret was that he had not bombed more. Look into the association with the "reverend" Jeremiah Wright. (Sorry, I can't bring myself to capitalize "reverend" when referring to someone who is the moral equivalent of a KKK leader.) And look at the contributions that Obama has pulled in through the years from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Can you honestly think this is only a Republican issue? Don't kid yourselves. Obama sucked in a LOT of dollars from the mortgage industry well before the collapse. PLEASE read this and other related information:Obama's Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac Connection-Truth! (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-contributions-2.htm)

Then judge for yourselves. But before you are too quick to embrace "change", ask yourselves if it really is change for the better -- or even change at all. It is my opinion that Obama is merely a demagogue -- the (somewhat) sanitized 21st century version of Huey P. Long.

If you want to argue with me, I probably won't reply. Seriously. I realize that many of you have decided who you are going to vote for, and reason and factual information won't matter. Fine; that's your choice in a free country. However, don't try to rebut my statements UNLESS you cite factual sources. Don't give me opinions without any supporting facts. I can't debate/educate everyone out there, and I am not interested in doing so. In reality, I am VERY far from a political animal. I simply find it hard to believe that we are at this point..

Kevin. I like how you went back to the Carter years and skipped the Clinton Years. If Reagan fixed the mess Carter left us in then Clinton fixed the mess Bush1 left us in. Two Bushes two recessions. Or did Reagan leave Bush1 the recession?
By the way McCain's campaign manager got paid something like $30,000 a month as lobbyist for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae up until recently and his past company still gets money.
Did Reagan react to the Lebanon bombing of our marine barracks? Over 300 marines dead. Nope. I think he cut and ran.
Obama might not have the experience, but he has intelligence. Bush may have gone to Yale but he can not put a sentence together. This is a sign of an unclear mind. I do not want Joe six pack as my president I want someone smarter.
Palen? Well unclear mind is very clear. Does not even know what Newspapers she reads. Did Obama get reprimanded for ethics violations? Her husband belonged to and she spoke to a group that wants Alaska to succeed from the union. Now thats Patriotic!
Like someone else has recently said we all hear what we want to hear and ignore what we do not want to hear. Besides I think we all have other agendas besides the economy.

Jerry Peck
10-29-2008, 07:47 AM
Palen? Well unclear mind is very clear. Does not even know what Newspapers she reads. Did Obama get reprimanded for ethics violations? Her husband belonged to and she spoke to a group that wants Alaska to succeed from the union. Now thats Patriotic!


Yeah, but that's what you get from guys who go to family reunions to pick up girls.

Here just some of more of it.

She was pregnant before they were married. Her daughter was pregnant before she was married.

Her son dropped out of school, daughter dropped out of school (or maybe just at risk of dropping out, nonetheless, poor attendance = skipping school), as did her daughter's boyfriend.

Her husband was arrested and spent time in jail for drunk driving (before they were married).

The list goes on and on and on and on ...

And some people WANT that family, their family values, as Vice President? :confused:

Boggles the mind, it does. :rolleyes:

:p

Tony Infelise
10-29-2008, 09:02 AM
Yeah, but that's what you get from guys who go to family reunions to pick up girls.

Here just some of more of it.

She was pregnant before they were married. Her daughter was pregnant before she was married.

Her son dropped out of school, daughter dropped out of school (or maybe just at risk of dropping out, nonetheless, poor attendance = skipping school), as did her daughter's boyfriend.

Her husband was arrested and spent time in jail for drunk driving (before they were married).

The list goes on and on and on and on ...

And some people WANT that family, their family values, as Vice President? :confused:

Boggles the mind, it does. :rolleyes:

:p

I don't even know why I'm responding to this. This isn't one of your better posts. You seem to have intimate details of Palin's life when she was young (by god, I hope I don't get judged on what I did 25-30 years ago, how about you), here's a challenge for you, find us something on Obama's background, his childhood, his college years, his professorship...anything. This stuff seems to be difficult to find.
BTW, her son is now serving in Iraq and aren't single mothers a large part of Obama's voting base?

John Ghent
10-29-2008, 10:15 AM
Yeah, but that's what you get from guys who go to family reunions to pick up girls.

Here just some of more of it.

She was pregnant before they were married. Her daughter was pregnant before she was married.

Her son dropped out of school, daughter dropped out of school (or maybe just at risk of dropping out, nonetheless, poor attendance = skipping school), as did her daughter's boyfriend.

Her husband was arrested and spent time in jail for drunk driving (before they were married).

The list goes on and on and on and on ...

And some people WANT that family, their family values, as Vice President? :confused:

Boggles the mind, it does. :rolleyes:

:p

Jerry: Sounds like one of my neighbors. Besides, she's hot. I am a great believer that the presidency is merely a chair. The guy/gal that sits in it has so many advisors who actually know(or not) their own area of expertise. The chair simply picks from the best advice of his/her advisors.

And besides that, she's hot.

Ted Menelly
10-29-2008, 11:07 AM
Yeah, but that's what you get from guys who go to family reunions to pick up girls.

Here just some of more of it.

She was pregnant before they were married. Her daughter was pregnant before she was married.

Her son dropped out of school, daughter dropped out of school (or maybe just at risk of dropping out, nonetheless, poor attendance = skipping school), as did her daughter's boyfriend.

Her husband was arrested and spent time in jail for drunk driving (before they were married).



The list goes on and on and on and on ...

And some people WANT that family, their family values, as Vice President? :confused:

Boggles the mind, it does. :rolleyes:

:p


Oh well. Kinda sounds like an American family who have gone thru a little in life. Does that really make for a candidate to not be qualified. Oops, your say she isn't qualified so it just adds to it.

Shoot, I just don't know what to tell yeah.

I got arrested for unpaid parking tickets in Boston when I use to do a lot of work in there. I guess that makes me a bad person. Just an oops on paying them for that month. No place else to park.

I use to drink and party with friends when I was younger. I guess that makes me a bad person. The boyfriend made a bad decision about leaving school to support his girlfriend. From what I understand he still plans on getting his diploma. At least he did the honorable thing and did not shrug his family responsibilities off and let the girl and his child fend for them selves.

The reality is if a cop waited for every person to come out of any bar and put the key in the ignition and turn the engine over and then walked up to the window and gave any of them a breathalyser test, everyone of them to todays standards would more than likely be drunk and spend the night in jail.

Oh my God. She was pregnant before she got married. I guess we should take Palin out back and shoot her. She disgraced mankind. Humans are just that, humans. They struggle thru life trying their best to do right and hic up now and then. I love the hell out of the woman and have great respect for her and all she has done and continues to try to do for her family and constituants. Palin makes real life speaches and not some trumped up "Four score and".

As far as Joe the unlicensed plumber trying to do the best for himself and family. Whats up with that. As I said in some other post some where. I could care less if he is not licensed as far as buying a plumbing company. I could buy a plumbing company. I could hire the right folks to do the job. I would not have to be licensed. Shoot, I could buy a Home Inspection company and not be licensed. Round up the work, pass it on to my licensed employees and live on. Would that be so wrong? Make me foolish? Make me worthless? No, I think not. It would make me a business owner trying to do better for my family and employees.

The woman has lived in the real world and has tried to make the best for her family and then the people she was Mayor over and the as Governor of the state of Alaska.

Family values. Jerry. Most af the senate and congressmen and woman have srewed up in some way. It gets found out over and over again.

I feel bad that you think that way Jerry. People going thru life and trying to make an honest living and better themselves and you seem to look down on them.

Have you ever made a mistake in life Jerry? Or even if it was not a mistake but just something that you wish you did different? Did you try to do better for you and your family after screwing up?

I respect you in many ways but I think (my opinion) that you are way wrong in your thinking on this one.

As Ron would say. We are still brothers with different mothers. No offense, just a difference in opinions.

Jerry Peck
10-29-2008, 11:29 AM
I don't even know why I'm responding to this. This isn't one of your better posts.

Not intended to be a 'good post'.

I figured I might as well post anti-McCain/Palin stuff just 'cause ... you know, just 'cause others are trying to berate Obama and post anti-Obama stuff.

I tried staying out of it as much as I could, but, those others kept posting, so ... what to heck ... I figured it was acceptable and the thing to do, so ... I did post too.

:p

Mike Schulz
10-29-2008, 12:28 PM
Jerry when I said towel heads it was in reference of war against the terrorist. I was not speaking of all. I do have better words for the terrorist but chose not to post them for they are much worst.

I have great respect for Asians, Mexicans, blacks and so on. It's the bad ones I will call words of whatever I choose. Are you telling me you don't? Have you ever called someone a terrorist, I'm sure you have and that is demeaning no more then what I said.

Besides you took towel head as demeaning. If a terrorist wraps there head with a towel what do you call it? :)

I think it is good we can vent om this site and not hold it against one another. Keeps us from going "Postal". Oops another bad word that is demeaning to post workers.:D

Jack Feldmann
10-29-2008, 01:39 PM
1. I can't imagine the use of "towel head" as anything else than a racial slur. A description? yeah right.

I would rather have Tina Fey as VP. I think she is better looking, and by far smarter.

Palin as Gov of a State that has less people than a whole lot of cities, does not exactly have a stellar record. She isn't exactly going to get a plaque in the town she was mayor in either. Not everyone just loves her.

Oh for the record, some of us that lived in CA when Ronnie was Gov were not exactly crazy about him either, and could not understand how he could get elected Pres. Besides, everyone knows that while Ronnie's lips moved when he spoke, Nancy had her hand in his back all the time.

Tony Infelise
10-29-2008, 01:43 PM
Not intended to be a 'good post'.

I figured I might as well post anti-McCain/Palin stuff just 'cause ... you know, just 'cause others are trying to berate Obama and post anti-Obama stuff.

I tried staying out of it as much as I could, but, those others kept posting, so ... what to heck ... I figured it was acceptable and the thing to do, so ... I did post too.

:p

Um, I guess I don't understand this post at all. It doesn't say anything. BTW, even though I don't post here all that often, I've been around for a while (I even remember you from the old ASHI forum) and you've never been known to "stay out of it as much as you could", which isn't neccessarily a bad thing.

Jerry Peck
10-29-2008, 01:55 PM
Um, I guess I don't understand this post at all. It doesn't say anything.

I would be clear as day if you read it with all the other posts here on this board regarding political stuff.


BTW, even though I don't post here all that often, I've been around for a while (I even remember you from the old ASHI forum) and you've never been known to "stay out of it as much as you could", which isn't neccessarily a bad thing.

If someone needed to be disagreed with, and no one else would step up, *I* would then step up to the plate. :)

Except that here I was trying to "stay out of it as much as" I could. Even posed to Brian, who owns this site, that the political posts were possibly getting a bit too 'out of hand'. Being as Brian elected to leave them, and other elected to post more, I figured, "Hey, what to heck, that must be the accepted thing to do." - so I posted some posts which I knew would raise the hair on the back of some necks.

Too bad, as I've said before, "fair is fair", you get to do it, we all get to do it ... you want to keep doing it, we all get to keep doing it. (Meaning "you" as in the plural, not necessarily "you" as in the singular 'you'.)

I think these posts have outlived any decency they may have had ("may have had" because they really never "had" any decency). :rolleyes:

So be it. :D

Tony Infelise
10-29-2008, 02:14 PM
I think these posts have outlived any decency they may have had ("may have had" because they really never "had" any decency).



Again, I agree. I for one, cant' wait for this election to be over with so we can all move on.

Jim Luttrall
10-29-2008, 09:01 PM
I am still waiting for someone to post something factual about anything that Mr. Obama has accomplished other than winning elections...
Has he sponsored a bill, been a watchdog over wasteful spending, unethical behavior... seriously, does anyone know what he has done?

I will start with what I know good about Obama:

1. He gives good speeches.
2. He has raise twice as much money for his campaign as McCain.

Please add to the list.

Ted Menelly
10-29-2008, 10:04 PM
I am still waiting for someone to post something factual about anything that Mr. Obama has accomplished other than winning elections...
Has he sponsored a bill, been a watchdog over wasteful spending, unethical behavior... seriously, does anyone know what he has done?

I will start with what I know good about Obama:

1. He gives good speeches.
2. He has raise twice as much money for his campaign as McCain.

Please add to the list.

He is tall

He can pose well

He has practised his stance in the mirror.

He has practiced his body language

He has given him self many speeches in fron of the mirror

Out of 4 years in the senate he spent a good year there and part of another year there.

Could not put bills forth

Spent 2 years running for president

He has stile but no substance

Did a half hour infomercial (well over 5,000,000 dollars)

He wants to take your money and give it to me :)

He bought and election with 600,000,000 dollars (thats 600,000,000 dollars)

Has had long relationships with US terrorist (true, no beeting me up please)

Had relationship with PLO supporters and Jew haters (true, no beating me up please)

Relationship with racist and US hating Ministers (true, no beeting me up please)

Don't you folks find those last three true statements just a little teeny weeny bit off to you??????????? Is he any of those things??? I doubt it but it is still just a teeny weeny bit off if you ask me.

Has said a thousand times that the civil rights movement never did do enough for his people (don't know what his people means) aren't all Americans "His people"

His wife is as rich or richer than McCains 100,000,000 dollar wife

He is goinf to save America and save the world

Spent 150,000,000 this past month for advertising (thats 150,000,000 dollars)

Oh, I am sorry you asked what he has done to be ready to be president and accomplishments before that

Sorry, I have not heard anything about that.

By the way I heard all this directly over a long list of interviews that obama was in.

To be honest with you I am not to wild about the other side either but the other side, both pres and vise pres are way closer to the center and are not to far right. Unlike Obama be way, way, way far left.

David Banks
10-30-2008, 07:10 AM
I am still waiting for someone to post something factual about anything that Mr. Obama has accomplished other than winning elections...
Has he sponsored a bill, been a watchdog over wasteful spending, unethical behavior... seriously, does anyone know what he has done?

I will start with what I know good about Obama:

1. He gives good speeches.
2. He has raise twice as much money for his campaign as McCain.

Please add to the list.


Read it and weep. Does not take much to do a little research. I say quite impressive for starting with nothing.

Barack Obama's Résumé

ObamasResume.org aims to put together a simple and complete description of Barack Obama's career.

Anyone may edit this wiki. Registration is required – you can register here.


Trace: »
−Table of Contents
Education
Undergraduate
Graduate
Organizing and other work experience
Teaching
Law Practice
Illinois Senate 1996-2004
United States Senate 2004-present Sworn in 1/4/2005
Sponsored Bill Statistics
Bills / Amendments Passed
Other Bills Introduced
SourcesEducation
Undergraduate
Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA
Undergraduate, 1981-1983

Columbia University
B.A. Political Science with specialization in international relations
Thesis topic: Soviet nuclear disarmament

Graduate
Harvard Law School
J.D. magna cum laude 1988-1991

President, Harvard Law Review

Organizing and other work experience
1983-1984 Writer/Researcher for Business International Corporation. Helped companies understand overseas markets in the “Financing Foreign Operations” service and wrote for the “Business International Money Report”
1984-1985 Community Organizer for New York Public Interest Research Group (PIRG), promoting personal, community, and government reform at City College in Harlem.
1985-1988 Director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland on Chicago's South Side. While director grew the DCP staff from 1 to 13 and their budget from $70,000 to $400,000.
1992 Led Chicago's Project Vote! push. This effort resulted in a record number of voter registrations, over 600,000 in Chicago. 1)
Teaching
1993-2004 Visiting Law and Government Fellow, then Senior Lecturer, in Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. Taught courses on the due process and equal protection areas of constitutional law, on voting rights, and on racism and law. Helped develop a casebook on voting rights.
Law Practice
1993-2002 Worked as an associate attorney with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Represented non-profits and private individuals in urban development projects, voting rights cases, and wrongful firings. Filed major suit that forced the state of Illinois to enforce the Motor Voter Law and successfully argued a wrongful firing case before the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.
Illinois Senate 1996-2004
Chairman, Health and Human Services Committee
Spearheaded a successful bipartisan effort in Illinois to pass the broadest ethics-reform legislation in 25 years, and gained bipartisan support for his successful bills reforming death penalty interrogations and ending racial profiling by police. Worked with the Republican-led effort to reform welfare.
Also sponsored successful bills expanding tax credits and child-care subsidies for low-income working families, protecting overtime pay for workers, expanding health care for children, and providing job skills training for juveniles.
New York Times chart on Obama's legislative record in the Illinois Senate: The New York Times > U.S. > Image > Obama’s Record in the Illinois Senate (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html)

United States Senate 2004-present Sworn in 1/4/2005
Member, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Chairman, Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs
Member, Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
Member, Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Member, Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs
Shares responsibility for the bipartisan Coburn-Obama Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act of 2006, requiring full online disclosure of all entities receiving federal funds, and the bipartisan Lugar-Obama Cooperative Proliferation Detection, Interdiction Assistance, and Conventional Threat Reduction Act of 2006, deepening non-proliferation work with WMD and including surface-to-air missiles, land mines, and other weapons that may be used by terrorists. Also worked with Coburn to end the abuse of no-bid contracts in the wake of disasters.
Sponsored Bill Statistics
Number of sponsored bills: 70
Number of sponsored bills passed: 2
Number of co-sponsored bills: 404
Number of co-sponsored bills passed: 8
OpenCongress - Track bills, votes, senators, and representatives in the U.S. Congress (http://www.opencongress.org) (9/3/2008—-dankster keeps taking this out for some reason) (because it makes no sense at all. If you go to the NYT link or the Advanced Bill Summary and Status Search for the 109th Congress - THOMAS (Library of Congress) (http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d109query.html) and Advanced Bill Summary and Status Search for the 110th Congress - THOMAS (Library of Congress) (http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d110query.html) searches, you'll find that he's sponsored and cosponsored many times more bills than those stats list. They're ridiculously off.) PolitiFact | Obama sponsored a bill that became law (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/271/)

Bills / Amendments Passed
Barack Obama has introduced nearly 300 bills during his time in the U.S. Senate, and cosponsored close to 1,000 others. To see his legislative efforts, search the 109th Congress at Advanced Bill Summary and Status Search for the 109th Congress - THOMAS (Library of Congress) (http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d109query.html) and 110th Congress at Advanced Bill Summary and Status Search for the 110th Congress - THOMAS (Library of Congress) (http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d110query.html)
S.AMDT.1041 to S.1082 To improve the safety and efficacy of genetic tests.
S.AMDT.3073 to H.R.1585 To provide for transparency and accountability in military and security contracting.
S.AMDT.3078 to H.R.1585 Relating to administrative separations of members of the Armed Forces for personality disorder.
S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
S.AMDT.524 to S.CON.RES.21 To provide $100 million for the Summer Term Education Program supporting summer learning opportunities for low-income students in the early grades to lessen summer learning losses that contribute to the achievement gaps separating low-income students from their middle-class peers.
S.AMDT.599 to S.CON.RES.21 To add $200 million for Function 270 (Energy) for the demonstration and monitoring of carbon capture and sequestration technology by the Department of Energy.
S.AMDT.905 to S.761 To require the Director of Mathematics, Science, and Engineering Education to establish a program to recruit and provide mentors for women and underrepresented minorities who are interested in careers in mathematics, science, and engineering.
S.AMDT.923 to S.761 To expand the pipeline of individuals entering the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields to support United States innovation and competitiveness.
S.AMDT.924 to S.761 To establish summer term education programs.
S.AMDT.2519 to H.R.2638 To provide that one of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5 million or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee owes no past due Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.2588 to H.R.976 To provide certain employment protections for family members who are caring for members of the Armed Forces recovering from illnesses and injuries incurred on active duty.
S.AMDT.2658 to H.R.2642 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.2692 to H.R.2764 To require a comprehensive nuclear threat reduction and security plan.
S.AMDT.2799 to H.R.3074 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3137 to H.R.3222 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3234 to H.R.3093 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3331 to H.R.3043 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
Senate Resolutions Passed:
S.RES.133 : A resolution celebrating the life of Bishop Gilbert Earl Patterson.
S.RES.268 : A resolution designating July 12, 2007, as “National Summer Learning Day”.
Other Bills Introduced
S.J.RES.23: A joint resolution clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.
S. 453: Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2007. The Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2007 (H.R.1281), (S.453), would establish criminal penalties for acts of voter deception. Those who knowingly disseminate false information with the intention of keeping others from voting would face up to five years in prison under the legislation. The Act was sponsored by Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) and 60 cosponsors in the House, and Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and 15 cosponsors in the Senate. (20 Cosponsors)
S. 2030: A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require reporting relating to bundled contributions made by persons other than registered lobbyists. (1 Cosponsor)
S. 2111: Positive Behavior for Effective Schools Act. A bill to amend the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 to allow State educational agencies, local educational agencies, and schools to increase implementation of early intervention services, particularly school-wide positive behavior supports. (3 Cosponsors)
S. 2066: Back to School: Improving Standards for Nutrition and Physical Education in Schools Act of 2007. A bill to establish nutrition and physical education standards for schools.
S. Con. Res. 46: A concurrent resolution supporting the goals and ideals of Sickle Cell Disease Awareness Month
S. 2044: Independent Contractor Proper Classification Act of 2007. A bill to provide procedures for the proper classification of employees and independent contractors, and for other purposes. (6 Cosponsors)
S. 2519: Contracting and Tax Accountability Act of 2007. A bill to prohibit the awarding of a contract or grant in excess of the simplified acquisition threshold unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee has no seriously delinquent tax debts, and for other purposes.
S. 2433: Global Poverty Act of 2007. A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day. (9 Cosponsors)
S. 2330: Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act. A bill to authorize a pilot program within the Departments of Veterans Affairs and Housing and Urban Development with the goal of preventing at-risk veterans and veteran families from falling into homelessness, and for other purposes. (1 Cosponsor)
FULL VOTING HISTORY
Barack Obama's Senate Voting Record

Sources
Milestones: Barack Obama -- The New York Times
Professor Obama was a listener, students say -- Chicago Sun-Times
An Obama Moment -- Geoffrey R. Stone at The Huffington Post
Detailed research into Obama and Clinton's bills that they have authored
Oxy Remembers "Barry" Obama '83
Andrew Sullivan lists major legislative accomplishments, and links to several other articles discussing Obama's record
TNR Online | The Agitator (1 of 5) (print) (http://www.pickensdemocrats.org/info/TheAgitator_070319.htm)
OpenCongress - U.S. Congress - Sen. Barack Obama (http://www.opencongress.org/people/show/400629_barack_obama)
1) Vote of Confidence - Chicago Magazine - January 1993 - Chicago (http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-1993/Vote-of-Confidence/)

Ron Bibler
10-30-2008, 07:43 AM
Karl Marx had a nice Résumé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx)

Karl Heinrich Marx
Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production) and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism) society Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class) political movement. Karl Marx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx) posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_struggle) and a proletarian revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletarian_revolution) which represents the transitional stage between capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) and communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism).
Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics)) and creates an unequal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_equality) society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.
Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_interventionism) and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformism) and the revolutionaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_socialism). Some socialists advocate complete nationalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization) of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership) of capital within the framework of a market economy. Social democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy) combined with tax-funded welfare programs; Libertarian socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) (which includes Socialist Anarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Anarchism) and Libertarian Marxism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Marxism)) rejects state control and ownership of the economy altogether and advocates direct collective ownership of the means of production via co-operative workers' councils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_councils) and workplace democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_democracy).

If this what you want you can get. just Vote for Obama...

Wake America. If you want this go over to USSR or China they can help you understand the just what end results of socialism will be.

As for me and my house... I will be free and a Capitailst. work for what i have. and help my brother with my own hand.

Big Joe biden. made 750K his tax form shows he only gave $ 350 bucks the charity. Thats a joke!

Just about every democrats gift to charity is a big fat 0

yet they call a conservitive mean spirited. L.O.L.

Best

Ron

Scott Patterson
10-30-2008, 07:46 AM
Thanks to our states early voting I have already voted for the RIGHT person!:D

David Banks
10-30-2008, 08:24 AM
Karl Marx had a nice Résumé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx)

Karl Heinrich Marx
Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production) and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism) society Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class) political movement. Karl Marx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx) posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_struggle) and a proletarian revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletarian_revolution) which represents the transitional stage between capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) and communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism).
Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics)) and creates an unequal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_equality) society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.
Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_interventionism) and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformism) and the revolutionaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_socialism). Some socialists advocate complete nationalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization) of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership) of capital within the framework of a market economy. Social democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy) combined with tax-funded welfare programs; Libertarian socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) (which includes Socialist Anarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Anarchism) and Libertarian Marxism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Marxism)) rejects state control and ownership of the economy altogether and advocates direct collective ownership of the means of production via co-operative workers' councils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_councils) and workplace democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_democracy).

If this what you want you can get. just Vote for Obama...

Wake America. If you want this go over to USSR or China they can help you understand the just what end results of socialism will be.

As for me and my house... I will be free and a Capitailst. work for what i have. and help my brother with my own hand.

Big Joe biden. made 750K his tax form shows he only gave $ 350 bucks the charity. Thats a joke!

Just about every democrats gift to charity is a big fat 0

yet they call a conservitive mean spirited. L.O.L.

Best

Ron

Ron. Pretty sad you have to resort to scare tactics and false charges. What does putting the progressive tax system back to the Clinton years have to do with Socialism. Even McCain answered a girls question whose father was a doctor that it was fair to tax him more because of his higher income.
I think the people of America are seeing through all these lies and the Republican party will pay for this come election day.
I wonder what your God thinks of all your false statements?
Just about all Democrats do not give to charitys?

Jerry Peck
10-30-2008, 09:20 AM
Thanks to our states early voting I have already voted for the RIGHT person!:D

Same here. :D

Jack Feldmann
10-30-2008, 09:26 AM
9971 on my first try.

Jim Luttrall
10-30-2008, 09:39 AM
Read it and weep. Does not take much to do a little research. I say quite impressive for starting with nothing.

Barack Obama's Resume



Pretty impressive list, but after scanning through it, I see very little of importance or of a controversial nature to reinforce the "Change" mantra.
Most of the bills passed appear to me to be house keeping and clarification of previous measures.
Just my opinion, but it seems to be mostly "feel good" stuff that is mostly resume' padding. There are about 5-6 (didn't take time to take an accurate count) different listings to prevent contracts from being awarded if they owe any taxes. Maybe this is just a misprint or maybe the IRS needs help collecting, but not exactly something to write home about as a major accomplishment.

I am sorry, but I just don't see much in the way of accomplishments for someone wanting to be president.

Ted Menelly
10-30-2008, 10:18 AM
9971 on my first try.


Shame on you Jack. Were you using a mouse or were you using a laptop with your finger pushing it around.

Oh yeah. I was answering calls, making dinner, talking with friends, typing a report, brushing my teeth and blowing my nose ;)

Ted Menelly
10-30-2008, 10:49 AM
Pretty impressive list, but after scanning through it, I see very little of importance or of a controversial nature to reinforce the "Change" mantra.
Most of the bills passed appear to me to be house keeping and clarification of previous measures.
Just my opinion, but it seems to be mostly "feel good" stuff that is mostly resume' padding. There are about 5-6 (didn't take time to take an accurate count) different listings to prevent contracts from being awarded if they owe any taxes. Maybe this is just a misprint or maybe the IRS needs help collecting, but not exactly something to write home about as a major accomplishment.

I am sorry, but I just don't see much in the way of accomplishments for someone wanting to be president.

Sad but true Jim but most of the things that go on in the Senate are just like that. Do much of nothing very costly bills. From what I understand and I could be wrong but Obamas goodies cost the US about a million a day just for his first year in the Senate.

I watched a show were both Rep and Dem Senators (3 each) both said that Obama was present a lot the first year and present a little the second year and basically disappeared the third year.

Another show where hearings were held on a vast number of things where Obama walked in late for most of the meetings and asked repetitious questions because he was not there to hear previous questions and answers. I saw a clip this morning on the news that reiterated that where clip after clip had him apologizing for being late and asking his forgiveness and a heads up that he may ask the same questions because he was not there to hear them to begin with.

Again I am not happy with either candidate but all I have seen about Obama was for a very long time he had an agenda all along of being the top gun. Please don't beet me up on this because I watch both sides every day trying to keep an open mind. All my life other than when I was very young I have always tried to go with the folks that made the best sense out of things and how I saw the country going at the time so it is not like I am rep or Dem.

I just truly believe that the far left is not the way to go right now.

And a little beat up on the Rep. Reagan may have helped end the cold war only because USSR could not keep up with the spending. Reagan had us trillions in overall debt and George 1 had to try to deal with that. We went into a recession. Rep over 12 years did not do the greatest job and their time ended in a recession. It was overdue anyway. Clinton had the appearance of doing a good job but his entire Presidency had the dot com boom behind him.

The dot com boom ended and about put us in a recession and the Dems and Rep had to do something about it.

And here comes the housing fiasco. It kept everyone working and no one complained at all because of the nice cash flow. The real problem, just a coincidence, came after the Dems took control other than the Presidency and lenders came up with all these wonderful ways to get more folks to buy homes (not just no down payment) that just plane could not afford them. So in the past couple to three years maybe 4 is where all this mess came from. Phony money and bad paper.

The absolute worse thing that has happened that will affect us working for years is they are now preventing folks that can afford decent mortgage payments but no money down except all the closing fees, from buying a home.

Don't get into the down payment thing. It has absolutely nothing to do with this crisis. Case in point. I just looked a a chart of the drop in home prices since the economy down turned. DFWs home prices have dropped an average of 14%. Even if someone had put 10 to 15% down, Oops, there goes the down payment with a 14% drop.

It was just and only just the selling of homes to those that could not afford the low mortgage payment and certainly not the greater payment later.

Billy Stephens
10-30-2008, 05:21 PM
.
Do much of nothing very costly bills.
.
Ted,

Are you saying that Renaming Post Offices, Court Houses, Highways, Bridges and other Important National Landmarks is not a Productive Endeavor and of Great Value and Service to The People Performed by The United States Senate? ---:rolleyes:
most of Hilliary's bills as well. ;)

Ted Menelly
10-30-2008, 05:38 PM
.
Ted,

Are you saying that Renaming Post Offices, Court Houses, Highways, Bridges and other Important National Landmarks is not a Productive Endeavor and of Great Value and Service to The People Performed by The United States Senate? ---:rolleyes:
most of Hilliary's bills as well. ;)

Unfortunately, other than a handfull of bills, most are like that from both sides. I guess thats what they are there for but things are out of control. More time has to be spent on important items and maybe, just maybe things would stay a little more stable.

Ron Bibler
10-31-2008, 01:44 AM
Ron. Pretty sad you have to resort to scare tactics and false charges. What does putting the progressive tax system back to the Clinton years have to do with Socialism. Even McCain answered a girls question whose father was a doctor that it was fair to tax him more because of his higher income.
I think the people of America are seeing through all these lies and the Republican party will pay for this come election day.
I wonder what your God thinks of all your false statements?
Just about all Democrats do not give to charitys?

David If you look at just a few of the Dems tax papers you will see they just don't give. Al Gore was the same as biden he put some big bucks in his pockets and listed on his tax paper $ 150 bucks. thats a joke. and a fact.

Obama own words "spread the wealth around," Sorry but thats is what Socialism is. this is a fact. his words not my words.

The Dude is a Socialist...

You known. how many people do you known that. blow up police departments and US Building, Talk down about America, or speak down about Israel. We can find out a lot about people if we look at who they hang with...

How is it Obama hangs out with these people?

Dam man open your eyes...

John McCain spent 6 years in a_____Hole for you and me.

Respect to you David...

Best

Ron

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 06:14 AM
Dam man open your eyes...

John McCain spent 6 years in a_____Hole for you and me.


And that DOES NOT mean we give him the Presidency. If it did, there are A LOT of other Vietnam Veterans out there who deserve it more.

Cut that crap - seems to me that is the lamest excuse people bring up ... Oh, but McCain was a POW ... SO WERE A LOT of others. In fact, let's take your statement to the next level - let's make all those WHO DID NOT MAKE IT HOME ALIVE the "President", start reading the names, man. :rolleyes:

Crimeny, for reasons to elect McCain, that is the lamest I see.

Vern Heiler
10-31-2008, 07:33 AM
Second lamest- Having wet dreams about VP!

Jerry McCarthy
10-31-2008, 08:15 AM
The only fun I've had out of this thread is Rick's Turkey Shoot.... 14,775 for the old geezer!
Man, will I be glad when this election is over........... :rolleyes:

Ron Bibler
10-31-2008, 08:20 AM
And that DOES NOT mean we give him the Presidency. If it did, there are A LOT of other Vietnam Veterans out there who deserve it more.

Cut that crap - seems to me that is the lamest excuse people bring up ... Oh, but McCain was a POW ... SO WERE A LOT of others. In fact, let's take your statement to the next level - let's make all those WHO DID NOT MAKE IT HOME ALIVE the "President", start reading the names, man. :rolleyes:

Crimeny, for reasons to elect McCain, that is the lamest I see.

OK. So we give Obama the Presidency and overlook the people he hangs out with... what the _____.

Now thats the lamest of all times Jerry...

# 1. How can you overlook the people Obama hangs with???:confused:

Please reply to #1. one Q. Jerry.

Respect.

Ron

David Banks
10-31-2008, 08:30 AM
David If you look at just a few of the Dems tax papers you will see they just don't give. Al Gore was the same as biden he put some big bucks in his pockets and listed on his tax paper $ 150 bucks. thats a joke. and a fact.

Obama own words "spread the wealth around," Sorry but thats is what Socialism is. this is a fact. his words not my words.

The Dude is a Socialist...

You known. how many people do you known that. blow up police departments and US Building, Talk down about America, or speak down about Israel. We can find out a lot about people if we look at who they hang with...

How is it Obama hangs out with these people?

Dam man open your eyes...

John McCain spent 6 years in a_____Hole for you and me.

Respect to you David...

Best

Ron

You my friend are truly ignorant. But respect to you! The man is involved in the great educational learning institutions of America. Thats what these people do. Go to conferences. Listen to all sides. Does not mean he agrees. He was on a board with Bill Ayers that is trying to better education for inner city poor kids. Is this a crime?
This is how the peoples of the world can start a dialog and prevent hate and wars. What do you want Ron? No talking and constant hate and war?
Obama is not a socialist. No one was saying this until the recent Joe the Plumber episode. Talk about being brainwashed by television and propaganda from your candidate. Holy cow. All he is doing is changing the progressive tax rate to make it better for the middle class and you guys are spinning it and lying.
Remember the 9th Commandment.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"

Peace love and forget the tyedye!

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 08:41 AM
Dave,

I liked Obama's comment when he said: (underlining is mine)

"Now, because he knows that his economic theories don't work, he's been spending these last few days calling me every name in the book. Lately he's called me a socialist for wanting to roll-back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans so we can finally give tax relief to the middle class. I don't know what's next. By the end of the week he'll be accusing me of being a secret communist because I shared my toys in kindergarten. I shared my peanut butter and jelly sandwich."

OH MY GOD! HE'S A COMMIE TOO! :D

David Banks
10-31-2008, 08:51 AM
Jerry. They will love this one. Must have been a Liberal from Harvard Yard.

Dear Red States,

We've decided we're leaving. We intend to form our own country, and we're taking the other Blue States with us. In case you aren't aware, that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and the entire Northeast. It may even include Florida and Ohio, as they are seriously considering it. We've given them until Nov. 4th to decide. We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation, and especially to the people of the new country. Since we're dropping the middle states we're calling it United America, or simply the U.A.

To sum up briefly: You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states. We get stem cell research and the best beaches. We get the Statue of Liberty. You get Dollywood. You can take Ted Nugent. We're keeping Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel. You get WorldCom. We get Intel and Microsoft. You get Ole' Miss. We get Harvard and 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama. We get two-thirds of the tax revenue; you get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms, and the highest concentration of pregnant unwed teenagers. Please be aware that the U.A. will be pro-choice and anti-war, and we're going to want all our citizens back from Iraq at once. If you need people to fight, ask your evangelicals. They have kids they're apparently willing to send to their deaths for no purpose, and they don't care if you don't show pictures of their children's caskets coming home. We do wish you success in Iraq, and hope that the WMDs turn up, really we do, but we're not willing to spend our resources in Bush's Quagmire. We'd rather spend it on taking care of sick people, and educating our children.

With the Blue States in hand, we will have firm control of 80 percent of the country's fresh water, more than 90 percent of the pineapple and lettuce, 92 percent of the nation's fresh fruit, 95 percent of America's quality wines, 90 percent of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the U.S. low-sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT. With the Red States, on the other hand, you will have to cope with 88 percent of all obese Americans (and their projected health care costs), 92 percent of all U.S. mosquitoes, nearly 100 percent of the tornadoes, 90 percent of the hurricanes, 99 percent of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100 percent of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia. We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

Additionally, 38 percent of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62 percent believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the war, the death penalty or gun laws, 44 percent say that evolution is only a theory, 53 percent that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy Reds believe you are people with higher morals then we Blue.

Peace out,
Blue States

Ron Bibler
10-31-2008, 08:52 AM
What is truth?

Respect

Ron

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 09:47 AM
What is truth?

Respect

Ron


THEN SHOW SOME. :rolleyes:

Tony Infelise
10-31-2008, 09:51 AM
This is how the peoples of the world can start a dialog and prevent hate and wars. What do you want Ron? No talking and constant hate and war?


This is a very idealistic idea, but not realistic. Who doesn't want peace, but unfortunately hate and war has been here since the beginning of time. It's the nature of man. All the talking in the world not stop it.
How do we negotiate with people who think nothing of flying planes into our buildings or strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent civilians or even beheading another human.
I've heard this time and time again about starting a dialog. I'd like to know how we do this.

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 10:00 AM
How do we negotiate with people who think nothing of flying planes into our buildings or strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent civilians or even beheading another human.
I've heard this time and time again about starting a dialog. I'd like to know how we do this.


First, you STOP SAYING 'We are not going to talk to you unless ... '

AS SOON AS you say that ... there can be no talking. :rolleyes:

And I thought that was sooooo obvious? :eek:

:)

Tony Infelise
10-31-2008, 10:28 AM
First, you STOP SAYING 'We are not going to talk to you unless ... '

AS SOON AS you say that ... there can be no talking. :rolleyes:

And I thought that was sooooo obvious? :eek:

:)

Is that all? Why didn't I think of that? Or better yet, the world leaders think of that? All this fuss for nothing.

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 10:41 AM
Is that all? Why didn't I think of that? Or better yet, the world leaders think of that? All this fuss for nothing.

"Or better yet, the world leaders think of that?"

Because they like to sound more important than the others.

Kind of like back in the old days when the US would negotiate with North Korea, every night the North Koreans would saw just a little bit off the legs of the chairs of the US representatives, to make them feel a little shorter each time. It's all mind games, and the way you play mind games is not to accept the other's position (the others are not accepting the US position of 'do this or we do not talk', so there is no talk), the way to respond (in the example of with North Korea) is to come in the next day AND STAND ... making THEM shorter. If you want to play mind games, you really need to open your mind and think of alternatives which will offset what the other party is trying to do.

Otherwise, the game is over before it starts and you lose. As simple as that.

Jerry McCarthy
10-31-2008, 10:55 AM
I have no idea who is running McCain and Palin, but from what I’ve seen I can hear the echoing laughter of Dickey Nixon along with his "dirty tricks" gang…. so much for the “low road.”….
Unfortunately repeating lies endlessly, misquotes, spin, and attempts at discrediting one's character has become a huge business in our country. Joseph Goebbels long ago professed that folks will not accept small untruths, but will gladly take to heart and repeat the big lie. Rufus T’ Firefly would be proud for sure.

Mike Schulz
10-31-2008, 11:10 AM
"Talk" you can't talk to people that hate what we stand for "freedom".:confused:

Let's annie up and send all the talkers over there and straighten this out. "Heads will roll". :cool:

Mike Schulz
10-31-2008, 11:15 AM
By the end of the week he'll be accusing me of being a secret communist because I shared my toys in kindergarten. I shared my peanut butter and jelly sandwich."


"Share" he wants to take yours toys and share them with everyone else and not give them back. :D

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 11:17 AM
"Talk" you can't talk to people that hate what we stand for "freedom".:confused:


Apparently no more than you can "talk" to some on this board. :p

And they say "they want freedom"? All they really want is for the others to do as they do, in which case, yes, you are "free to do so". :rolleyes:

Will this election ever get through with so we can put this crap behind us.

Remember, as long as you want to rant and rave about you guy, I will be here to goad you along and keep you ranting and raving ... it's what I do, and I do it well. :cool:

Sure, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. :rolleyes:

Tony Infelise
10-31-2008, 11:48 AM
Apparently no more than you can "talk" to some on this board. :p

And they say "they want freedom"? All they really want is for the others to do as they do, in which case, yes, you are "free to do so". :rolleyes:

Will this election ever get through with so we can put this crap behind us.

Remember, as long as you want to rant and rave about you guy, I will be here to goad you along and keep you ranting and raving ... it's what I do, and I do it well. :cool:

Sure, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. :rolleyes:

Hey Jerry,
Let's change directions because some of these posts are becoming redundent and slightly boring.
What do you think of this? Richardson lowers Obama's definition of rich to $120,000 | Politics West (http://politicswest.com/32378/breaking_news_bill_richardson_lowers_obamas_defini tion_rich_down_120_000)
What is the real number and how low can it go?

It's been said in earlier posts that there's no way to do everything he wants to do by just taxing the top 3-4% of wage earners.
BTW, I can't wait for this to get over either, but this "back and forth" is kind of entertaining in a strange sort of way.

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 12:09 PM
Hey Jerry,
Let's change directions because some of these posts are becoming redundent and slightly boring.


Hey Tony,

I completely agree.

How about this novel idea ... we stick to inspection related posts, drop the political posts and the religious posts?

I think you have a winner there! :D

Tony Infelise
10-31-2008, 12:25 PM
Hey Tony,

I completely agree.

How about this novel idea ... we stick to inspection related posts, drop the political posts and the religious posts?

I think you have a winner there! :D

I'd love to talk about inspections....if there was something going on. Why do you think I'm here on the computer on a beautiful Friday afternoon instead of walking a roof? One thing I know for sure, it will get better. It always does. No matter what. Happy Halloween.

Ted Menelly
10-31-2008, 12:31 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Oh shut up Ted

Jerry Peck
10-31-2008, 12:39 PM
I'd love to talk about inspections....if there was something going on.


Great, *there is ALWAYS* "something" going on ... how about sharing some inspection related knowledge to all of us?

David Banks
10-31-2008, 01:06 PM
This is a very idealistic idea, but not realistic. Who doesn't want peace, but unfortunately hate and war has been here since the beginning of time. It's the nature of man. All the talking in the world not stop it.
How do we negotiate with people who think nothing of flying planes into our buildings or strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent civilians or even beheading another human.
I've heard this time and time again about starting a dialog. I'd like to know how we do this.

There is also a yearning for knowledge and communication between man since the beginning of time. This is how we evolve. It is good we have people intelligent enough to try peace first. Then we kick their ass if they do not listen to reason :)

Jerry McCarthy
10-31-2008, 03:32 PM
speaking of knowkedge:
If you guys knew your history of our profession, some call it a trade; you would know who the very first home inspector was and when and where he practiced.

Give up? OK, I’ll help you out.

His name was Sam Akkaidel and he lived in the city of Babylon in 1791 BC under Emperor Hammurabi. Unfortunately Hammurabi was really tough on lousy builders and equally short of patience with home inspectors who didn’t know the building code thoroughly. (actually it was his code, the first know building code in the world)
Well… they beheaded builders whose house fell down and killed the owner under Hammurabi’s rule. He also ordered the separation of the heads of home inspectors from their bodies for issuing inspection reports that missed any “Material effects” that significantly affected the value, desirability, habitability, or safety of the dwelling they inspected for their clients.

Nothing much is different today except the courts of law can and will separate a home inspector’s bank account from his/her net worth rather than their head.

Hammurabi’s Code of Laws where all-inclusive; a few of them regulated the building contractors of the time. Of the 282 codes, numbers 228 through 233 are those which represent the rules for construction.
• 228. If a builder has built a house for a man, and finished it, he shall pay him a fee of two shekels of silver, for each SAR built on.
• 229. If a builder has built a house for a man, and has not made his work sound, and the house he built has fallen, and caused the death of its owner, that builder shall be put to death.
• 230. If it is the owner's son that is killed, the builder's son shall be put to death.
• 231. If it is the slave of the owner that is killed, the builder shall give slave for slave to the owner of the house.
• 232. If he has caused the loss of goods, he shall render back whatever he has destroyed. Moreover, because he did not make sound the house he built, and it fell, at his own cost he shall rebuild the house that fell.
• 233. If a builder has built a house for a man, and has not keyed his work, and the wall has fallen, that builder shall make that wall firm at his own expense.

Ralph Stakely
10-31-2008, 10:11 PM
Jerry Peck
Member Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ormond Beach, Florida
Posts: 7,322

Re: Spread the wealth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Bibler
What is truth?

Respect

Ron

THEN SHOW SOME.




Peck,
NOW THAT IS FUNNY COMING FROM YOU.
I have lost the final bit of respect I had for you. Your stooping to name calling, (idiots, stupid, ignorant, dumb, lame ass, "to name a few") has reached a new low.
I thought that you were a smart person, until I saw that you can be brainwashed by the "Dumocrat" talking points.

I feel sorry for you..

And remember, MY GOD loves you.

PS: You say, "There is no God, so there isn't. Hmmmm

Well
MY God, says, "There is No Jerry Peck, ergo.. No Jerry Peck.

You try to have a great day, in spite of yourself.

Ralph Stakely

Jerry Peck
11-01-2008, 08:13 AM
Well
MY God,


Ralphy Baby,

You just do not get it do you?

"YOUR" god ... not "GOD" ... not "EVERYONE's GOD" ... YOUR god.

If you were the Christian you pretend to be, you would not be saying what you are.

Wishing you a sweet repentance tomorrow at your church, the church OF YOUR CHOICE, mind you.

Bye, Ralph.

Jack Feldmann
11-01-2008, 09:21 AM
Ted,
I use a track ball

Mike Schulz
11-01-2008, 01:48 PM
Taxpayer Group Exposes Misleading Claim About "Tax Breaks for Oil Companies"







(Alexandria, VA) -- Barack Obama's Presidential campaign has repeatedly claimed that John McCain's tax plan would "give oil companies another $4 billion in tax breaks." Like so much of the rhetoric flying back and forth between the candidates, however, that statement leaves out crucial details about the proposal and misleads voters, according to the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU). The non-partisan grassroots group has not endorsed any candidate for President.
"Senator Obama's words give the impression that McCain supports $4 billion of tax cuts targeted just at the oil industry, but the reality is that the Arizona Senator has proposed a complete overhaul of our burdensome corporate tax code to make the system fairer for all businesses," said NTU Government Affairs Manager Andrew Moylan.
McCain's plan would make two important and beneficial changes, Moylan noted. It would reduce the corporate income tax rate, which is among the highest in the world, from 35 percent to 25 percent while allowing for immediate expensing of corporate investments. These necessary reforms would help to encourage greater growth and job creation in the face of difficult economic times. Perhaps the most important effect of these provisions is that they would reduce the severe competitive disadvantage American businesses face when compared to other countries in our global economy.
A recent study by the Cato Institute found that America's effective corporate tax rate was 8th-highest in the world. Equally disturbing, it is more than double that of some of the most advanced economies in the world, including Belgium, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Switzerland. "America swipes more from corporations than even most of traditionally high-tax Western Europe," Moylan added. "We cannot expect to attract new businesses and jobs to this country when we hit them with such punitive tax policies."
Moylan concluded, "Far from singling out any industry for help, reforming business taxation should reduce rates across the board and treat firms more equitably. This would improve the bottom line for thousands of corporations, large and small. America needs to cut corporate taxes to keep from falling even further behind its neighbors and competitors."
NTU is a nonpartisan, nonprofit citizen organization founded in 1969 to work for lower taxes, smaller government, and economic freedom at all levels. Note: For more information on NTU, visit National Taxpayers Union & National Taxpayers Union Foundation (http://www.ntu.org).

Mike Schulz
11-01-2008, 01:50 PM
Lets not forget this.

2008 Presidential Candidate Spending Analyses (http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=141)

Ralph Stakely
11-01-2008, 07:38 PM
Ralphy Baby, (not your Baby.. 65 years old)

You just do not get it do you? (Yep, I get it, do you?)

"YOUR" god ... not "GOD" ... not "EVERYONE's GOD" ... YOUR god. (they have the right to be wrong)

If you were the Christian you pretend to be, you would not be saying what you are.(and why not) (PRETEND< YOUR judgement)


Mr. Peck,
First of all I'm NOT your Baby. ( demeaning sarcasm on your part)

Second, there you go, judging my Christianity (pretend to be).(another "better/smarter than thou attitude on your part")

Third, there can be only "one God" (supreme being) in charge of this universe. Some ONE (not two/three/four/five/etc) has to be "in charge/control". Just as Brian own/controls this forum (not you, as you seem to believe)(telling people what they can and cannot post here)

Fourth, your ego and lack of tolerance for others' beliefs astounds the imagination. (you are free to believe as you see fit, but (AS YOU SAY) DO NOT TRY to ram your secularism, self agrandisement down others throats.

Fifth, you did not address my concerns as to your name calling and demeaning of others here, just because they don't agree with you. (name calling is 5th grader stuff)

Sixth, I would rather LIVE my life as if "The One And Only God" exists and find out later that I "might" be wrong, Than to live my life not believing and find out on judgement day that I WAS Wrong.

Seventh, Why would I be ashamed to claim to be a Christian, believing in One God? I proudly wear the badge of Christianity. No matter how much you and your secular friends persecute me and other Christians. It is an honor to carry His cross. He died on it for me AND YOU. That's the least I can do for Him.

Yes I get it. MR. Peck.. You believe there are many gods. I respect (more than I can say for you) your decision to be WRONG. All I can do is pray for you and hope you see where you are going astray. I would love to see you in Heaven WHEN I get there.

And until you know me personally and can read my mind, I would greatly appreciate it if you NOT denigrate MY personal integrity and beliefs. (but you go right ahead, if it makes you feel superior)


Yes, MY GOD still loves you and will till the day you die. Unfortunately, for you, if you die without knowing Him, I will not be able to meet you in Heaven and pick your brain for the REAL WORLDLY knowledge that you have.

Alas, I will never know in that case, we will be separated by the gulf that only God can span. And, no one can cross "after the fact." If your name is not written in The Lamb's Book of Life......, (( eternity is a LOOOONG time to regret your mistake.)

Goodbye MR. Peck I hope to see you there (Heaven)

MR. (to you ) Ralph Stakely

(yes I know, you will have some anal to the nth degree, response)

Jerry Peck
11-01-2008, 07:46 PM
(yes I know, you will have some anal to the nth degree, response)

Nope, just a simple response is all it needs.


Second, there you go, judging my Christianity (pretend to be).(another "better/smarter than thou attitude on your part")

Third, there can be only "one God" (supreme being) in charge of this universe. Some ONE (not two/three/four/five/etc) has to be "in charge/control". Just as Brian own/controls this forum (not you, as you seem to believe)(telling people what they can and cannot post here)

Fourth, your ego and lack of tolerance for others' beliefs astounds the imagination. (you are free to believe as you see fit, but (AS YOU SAY) DO NOT TRY to ram your secularism, self agrandisement down others throats.

Fifth, you did not address my concerns as to your name calling and demeaning of others here, just because they don't agree with you. (name calling is 5th grader stuff)

Sixth, I would rather LIVE my life as if "The One And Only God" exists and find out later that I "might" be wrong, Than to live my life not believing and find out on judgement day that I WAS Wrong.

Seventh, Why would I be ashamed to claim to be a Christian, believing in One God? I proudly wear the badge of Christianity. No matter how much you and your secular friends persecute me and other Christians. It is an honor to carry His cross. He died on it for me AND YOU. That's the least I can do for Him.

Yes I get it. MR. Peck.. You believe there are many gods. I respect (more than I can say for you) your decision to be WRONG. All I can do is pray for you and hope you see where you are going astray. I would love to see you in Heaven WHEN I get there.

And until you know me personally and can read my mind, I would greatly appreciate it if you NOT denigrate MY personal integrity and beliefs. (but you go right ahead, if it makes you feel superior)

Yes, MY GOD still loves you and will till the day you die. Unfortunately, for you, if you die without knowing Him, I will not be able to meet you in Heaven and pick your brain for the REAL WORLDLY knowledge that you have.

Alas, I will never know in that case, we will be separated by the gulf that only God can span. And, no one can cross "after the fact." If your name is not written in The Lamb's Book of Life......, (( eternity is a LOOOONG time to regret your mistake.)

Goodbye MR. Peck I hope to see you there (Heaven)

MR. (to you ) Ralph Stakely


Ralphy Baby,

You just do not get it do you?

If you did, you would not have responded as you did.

:rolleyes:

David Banks
11-01-2008, 08:20 PM
Taxpayer Group Exposes Misleading Claim About "Tax Breaks for Oil Companies"







(Alexandria, VA) -- Barack Obama's Presidential campaign has repeatedly claimed that John McCain's tax plan would "give oil companies another $4 billion in tax breaks." Like so much of the rhetoric flying back and forth between the candidates, however, that statement leaves out crucial details about the proposal and misleads voters, according to the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU). The non-partisan grassroots group has not endorsed any candidate for President.
"Senator Obama's words give the impression that McCain supports $4 billion of tax cuts targeted just at the oil industry, but the reality is that the Arizona Senator has proposed a complete overhaul of our burdensome corporate tax code to make the system fairer for all businesses," said NTU Government Affairs Manager Andrew Moylan.
McCain's plan would make two important and beneficial changes, Moylan noted. It would reduce the corporate income tax rate, which is among the highest in the world, from 35 percent to 25 percent while allowing for immediate expensing of corporate investments. These necessary reforms would help to encourage greater growth and job creation in the face of difficult economic times. Perhaps the most important effect of these provisions is that they would reduce the severe competitive disadvantage American businesses face when compared to other countries in our global economy.
A recent study by the Cato Institute found that America's effective corporate tax rate was 8th-highest in the world. Equally disturbing, it is more than double that of some of the most advanced economies in the world, including Belgium, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Switzerland. "America swipes more from corporations than even most of traditionally high-tax Western Europe," Moylan added. "We cannot expect to attract new businesses and jobs to this country when we hit them with such punitive tax policies."
Moylan concluded, "Far from singling out any industry for help, reforming business taxation should reduce rates across the board and treat firms more equitably. This would improve the bottom line for thousands of corporations, large and small. America needs to cut corporate taxes to keep from falling even further behind its neighbors and competitors."
NTU is a nonpartisan, nonprofit citizen organization founded in 1969 to work for lower taxes, smaller government, and economic freedom at all levels. Note: For more information on NTU, visit National Taxpayers Union & National Taxpayers Union Foundation (http://www.ntu.org).


Why not have a National Health Care system like all other industrialized country's and then our US company's could save tons of money and be very competitive.

Ralph Stakely
11-01-2008, 09:13 PM
Meaning WHUT, MR PECK?? What was "wrong" with my response?? Too plain and simple for your intellect to understand? Maybe, I'm just so stupood and simple, that I can't understand what I said.I bet others understand.
SPLAIN yourself , if you can.. Anyone else can do it in 300 words or less. I give you 6000 and you still can't do it..

You can never answer a question, straight forth and outright.. Your ramblings and anal retentive "answers"
are worse than a politicians.

Stop parsing words and get to a point.

OH< I'm sorry, you don't know how to do that.

You are beyond "earthly" help.

BTW< I'll be glad to be your "baby" if you want to support me, (spread the wealth around)

RES

Still no response as to why you have to stoop to name calling. Does it make you "feel big""??

Mike Schulz
11-02-2008, 05:11 AM
One Nation under "God" with liberty and justice for all.

This nation has one God and all others worship false idols.;)

Ron Bibler
11-02-2008, 05:29 AM
Why not have a National Health Care system like all other industrialized country's and then our US company's could save tons of money and be very competitive.

I think the GOV. should give everybody say a. hot dog and hambergs and pork chops and a chicken and VW in every garage. and we should only work one day a week with 52 weeks a year off for sick leave. And the GOV. should give me cool stuff for my birthday like free cake... and start a new program like a school to help everybody get along more better...


That would be nice...:)

Ron

Nick Ostrowski
11-02-2008, 05:37 AM
Has anybody noticed the fear mongerers are heading out to firearms dealers and buying up guns? They apparently fear that Obama will become elected, all gun privileges will be stripped away, and guns will be taken from their houses.

Victor DaGraca
11-02-2008, 05:46 AM
Bad idea.... take away guns AND cigarettes. :eek:

Damn commies.

Jerry Peck
11-02-2008, 07:51 AM
One Nation under "God" with liberty and justice for all.

This nation has one God and all others worship false idols.;)

Mike,

Therein lies your problem? (one of :D ) ... (but we all have problems :eek: )

The words "under God" were added in 1954, by Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus.

The original pledge was meant as a patriotic pledge, not a religious pledge. That twisted part was added during the Red Scare of the 1950s, McCarthyism and all. It is not the REAL pledge, it is the MODIFIED pledge and is one of the remaining remnants or McCarthyism.

"Under God"--A Product of the 1950's Red Scare (http://hnn.us/articles/840.html)

Be that as it may, the pledge states "one Nation under God", IT DOES NOT STATE 'one nation under ONE God'. :rolleyes:

You need to get your history straight.

:p

Jerry Peck
11-02-2008, 07:54 AM
Has anybody noticed the fear mongers are heading out to firearms dealers and buying up guns? They apparently fear that Obama will become elected, all gun privileges will be stripped away, and guns will be taken from their houses.

Yep.

There was a news story on the Orlando TV news stations last week about the business the guns shops are doing, seems all the fear mongers are loading up on AK-47s and AR-15s - though I don't know why they would need that to defend themselves if robbed. Oh, its so they can go on the offensive ... got it. :eek:

David Banks
11-02-2008, 08:08 AM
I think the GOV. should give everybody say a. hot dog and hambergs and pork chops and a chicken and VW in every garage. and we should only work one day a week with 52 weeks a year off for sick leave. And the GOV. should give me cool stuff for my birthday like free cake... and start a new program like a school to help everybody get along more better...


That would be nice...:)

Ron

Poor argument Ron. Let it be known that todays conservatives do not want social security, Medicaid etc. The privatization scheme of social security into the stock market is a way of getting rid of social security without directly telling the American people, because Republicans know its popularity.
This country is very young. Nothing is set in stone. Things can be changed for the better. The constitution once allowed slavery. We now no better, things evolve. Stop being a cave man. Ron from your past post I believe your a very religious man. I have a question for you, which I think a lot of more progressive/moderate people do not understand about religious conservatives.
Why not have some type of Universal health care so that poor woman and children can get care when needed. I thought Jesus talked about helping the poor. We can spend billions on unneeded wars and overseas wasted money. There are people in this jungle that are not as capable of helping themselves due to health reasons, mental or physical. The young whom are not being cared for properly etc. Some people are just brought up with poor education are not very intelligent and have a hard time making money in this society. We are a better country than this.
Economics and health care are not in the constitution we can evolve.
I do not think we should be giving away the farm but there are alternatives, there are universal systems that are not all government. See Wikopedia link.

Washington Times - Politics, Breaking News, US and World News - (http://www.washingtontimes.com/interactives/health-care-america/)

Universal health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care)

Respect

Victor DaGraca
11-02-2008, 08:48 AM
Just got this in an e-mail and, it needs to be shared.

Sort of a primer on business and government.



DEMOCRAT
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
You feel guilty for being successful.
You push for higher taxes so the government can provide cows for everyone.


REPUBLICAN
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
So?


SOCIALIST
You have two cows.
The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.


COMMUNIST
You have two cows.
The government seizes both and provides you with milk.
You wait in line for hours to get only 2 Qts.
It is expensive and sour.


CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.


BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
Under the new farm program the government pays you to shoot one, milk the other, and then pours the milk down the drain.


AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one.
You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when one cow drops dead. You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have downsized and are reducing expenses.
Your stock goes up.


FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike because you want three cows.
You go to lunch and drink wine and then have sex.
Life is good.


JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
They learn to travel on unbelievably crowded trains.
Most are at the top of their class at cow school.


GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give excellent quality milk, and run a hundred miles an hour.
Unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of vacation per year.


ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows but you don't know where they are, or care.
You break for lunch.
Life is good.


RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have some vodka.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You have some more vodka.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
The Russian Mafia shows up and takes over however many cows you really have.


TALIBAN CORPORATION
You have all the cows in Afghanistan , which are two.
You don't milk them because you cannot touch any creature's private parts.
You get a $40 million grant from the US government to find alternatives to milk production but use the money to buy weapons.


IRAQI CORPORATION
You have two cows.
They go into hiding.
They send radio tapes of their mooing.


POLISH CORPORATION
You have two bulls.
Employees are regularly maimed and killed attempting to milk them.


BELGIAN CORPORATION
You have one cow.
The cow is schizophrenic.
Sometimes the cow thinks he's French, other times he's Flemish.
The Flemish cow won't share with the French cow.
The French cow wants control of the Flemish cow's milk.
The cow asks permission to be cut in half.
The cow dies happy.


FLORIDA CORPORATION
You have a black cow and a brown cow.
Everyone votes for the best looking one.
Some of the people who actually like the brown one best accidentally vote for the black one.
Some people vote for both.
Some people vote for neither.
Some people can't figure out how to vote at all.
Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which one you think is the best-looking cow.


CALIFORNIA CORPORATION
You have millions of cows.
They make real California cheese.
Only five speak English.
Most are illegal.
No calves, they're all gay.

Ted Menelly
11-02-2008, 12:30 PM
Not picking on the Polish but I liked that one the best

Mike Schulz
11-02-2008, 12:39 PM
IT DOES NOT STATE 'one nation under ONE God'.

It also doesn't state "one nation under all Gods" :p

God is written on our monies and monuments, I still haven't seen one that says "all gods"

Our Nation was built under one God and the blood of Jesus. Show me anything in the USA that says there is a different God then our Lord Almighty that built this great nation.;)

People can believe anything they want. That's there freedom for living here. Just like to yank your chain because I'm bored at the moment.......:)

Mike Schulz
11-02-2008, 12:40 PM
By the way, I voted so I cancelled out your Vote Jerry..........:D

I love ya man! :p

adkjac
11-02-2008, 01:19 PM
Dave Banks.. great blue state post!

adkjac

So so soon... at least I will be happy to see Tuesday go by... I think this is the absolute last year I turn on a TV during an election year.

Jerry Peck
11-02-2008, 01:39 PM
Our Nation was built under one God and the blood of Jesus.


Actually, our great nation was not built under any one god, and the blood of Jesus only comes up during times of war ... You will die in the name of God - but, did you know, 'god' did not start any war, she only gets blamed for the war in her name.

Did you also know that some of the signors of the Declaration of Independence were non-believers? Yes, 'tis true.

See, "GOD", "God", or "god" was not what this great country was built on, in fact, it has survived IN SPITE of those making those claims, and using that as an excuse for war.
Remember, when our great country was at its greatest, "under God" was not in the pledge, that was only added during some of the darkest days of this country - during McCarthyism. Who, by the way, ended up being censored.

His just desserts, many would say, and, I am sure, there will be a few you feel he was a great man, those are probably the same one who were against the civil rights movement, the equal rights movement, just-about-any-rights movement. So be it - it takes all kinds, which makes is one thing which makes this country great.

Ron Bibler
11-02-2008, 01:44 PM
Poor argument Ron. Let it be known that todays conservatives do not want social security, Medicaid etc. The privatization scheme of social security into the stock market is a way of getting rid of social security without directly telling the American people, because Republicans know its popularity.
This country is very young. Nothing is set in stone. Things can be changed for the better. The constitution once allowed slavery. We now no better, things evolve. Stop being a cave man. Ron from your past post I believe your a very religious man. I have a question for you, which I think a lot of more progressive/moderate people do not understand about religious conservatives.
Why not have some type of Universal health care so that poor woman and children can get care when needed. I thought Jesus talked about helping the poor. We can spend billions on unneeded wars and overseas wasted money. There are people in this jungle that are not as capable of helping themselves due to health reasons, mental or physical. The young whom are not being cared for properly etc. Some people are just brought up with poor education are not very intelligent and have a hard time making money in this society. We are a better country than this.
Economics and health care are not in the constitution we can evolve.
I do not think we should be giving away the farm but there are alternatives, there are universal systems that are not all government. See Wikopedia link.

Page Unavailable (http://www.commonwealthfund.org/newsroom/newsroom_show.htm?)
doc_id=641071

Universal health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care)

Respect
Thanks for the Reply David. And the Q.

Q #1 Universal health care so that poor woman and children can get care when needed.

Q #2 Jesus talked about helping the poor.

To Understand progressive/moderate is easy for me.

but for you to understand conservatives / Christians.
Is hard. if not impossible? why you ask.

If you understand this Q. you will have your answer.
If you over look this Q. you will never understand Conservatives/ Christians. or anything about Christians Conservatives.


You ask what is the Question? The Q. is ( What is truth ? )


Every Christian on this board knowns the answer...

If you are a Christian please do not respond to this. let it lay for a time.

David some will take a stab at it like Jerry or give some intellectual point on it.

Best

Ron

Jerry Peck
11-02-2008, 01:56 PM
You ask what is the Question? The Q. is ( What is truth ? )


Every Christian on this board knowns the answer...

The answer, Ron, is that *if you really were a "Christian" ... yes ... " *if you really were a "Christan"* " ... you would not be asking that question.

You would be treating your fellow man with respect, not the contempt you are showing. Your hypocrisy is leaking out all over.

ANYONE who wants to respond to this post may, REGARDLESS of your belief.

Ted Menelly
11-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the Reply David. And the Q.

Q #1 Universal health care so that poor woman and children can get care when needed.

Q #2 Jesus talked about helping the poor.

To Understand progressive/moderate is easy for me.

but for you to understand conservatives / Christians.
Is hard. if not impossible? why you ask.

If you understand this Q. you will have your answer.
If you over look this Q. you will never understand Conservatives/ Christians. or anything about Christians Conservatives.


You ask what is the Question? The Q. is ( What is truth ? )


Every Christian on this board knowns the answer...

If you are a Christian please do not respond to this. let it lay for a time.

David some will take a stab at it like Jerry or give some intellectual point on it.

Best

Ron

I am a Catholic and some folks like to separate Catholics from Christianity and say it is a different kind of Christianity.

I think I may be able to answer your question.

Ron Bibler
11-02-2008, 02:18 PM
The answer, Ron, is that *if you really were a "Christian" ... yes ... " *if you really were a "Christan"* " ... you would not be asking that question.

You would be treating your fellow man with respect, not the contempt you are showing. Your hypocrisy is leaking out all over.

ANYONE who wants to respond to this post may, REGARDLESS of your belief.


No contempt Jerry. just a little Q. ( What is truth ) ?


Best

Ron

Ted Menelly
11-02-2008, 02:45 PM
Well thanks then. I will answer it thru someone else.

Warning, its a long one.

What is Truth?


By Keith W. Munday (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/acknowledgments/km.html)
Lying, economy with the truth, spin, statistics and all that...
Tens of millions of words are spoken, printed and broadcast daily. They are the chief means of communication for homo sapiens. The Bible statement that there are many voices in the world(1) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin) is all too true, and this verbal avalanche which descends upon us, whether in the form of advertisements, information, news, entertainment or even government propaganda needs careful assessment. It should all be measured against the truth.
This immediately brings us to one of the greatest questions ever asked What is Truth? It was actually addressed to Jesus by Pontius Pilate when he was examining Him in the Judgement Hall(2) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin) at His trial.
However careless people may be about truth, it must be admitted that truth is the only foundation on which any trust can be built. A recent survey on this question yielded the following result. 40 years ago over 60&#37; of those interviewed were happy to trust people and institutions. That number has now fallen to 30%. (BBC Radio 4).

How shall we define Truth? For starters it could be said that truth is that which agrees with reality and can be believed. For instance if I hold a pencil in my hand and I announce that I am holding a pencil in my hand, it will be the truth because it agrees with reality.

From a theological stance Truth originates from God Who is known as A God of truth and without iniquity(3) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin). The ninth of the ten commandments given by God to Moses prohibits falsehood. It states that you shall not bear false witness(4) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin), and lying is the very antithesis of the truth.

The Bible then goes further to unapologetically identify the Devil as a liar and the father of it(5) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin). The strange thing about lying, although it is going on all the time, the inveterate liar is always regarded as a despicable person!

In reference to Pilate's question to Jesus What is Truth? Jesus had previously stated that He had come to bear witness to the truth(11) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin), and a part of that truth is Holy Scripture. because Jesus in His prayer to the Father He said, Thy Word is truth(7) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin). Seeing that Jesus is known as The Way, The Truth and The Life, we have two highly credible sources of Truth. Jesus and the Bible. He could be regarded as the Bible in person, and the Bible is Jesus in print!

Ultimate issues of course are black and white, but unfortunately contemporary issues are not, we must admit. There are variations of truth, or gray areas as they are sometimes called. Take first

THE DELIBERATE LIE

This is the direct opposite of truth and is universally acknowledged as such. It certainly disagrees with reality, because it flies in the face of the facts, and when discovered stands completely condemned. The teller also loses credibility, and the offence is heightened when committed under oath making it a case of perjury.

Deliberate lies are continually being told in ordinary conversation, business and social contacts, often made easier when the telephone is being used. We're all used to the excuses of the computer breaking down; " the one you dealt with has now left the company" or, "I was at home at the time". etc. etc.

We now look at some of the gray areas, where people become economic with the truth, or only tell part of the story, but the thing is if it does not entirely agree with reality eg what really happened, then it carries a measure of falsehood. Can these 'white lies' ever be justified?

THE MIS-LEADING LIE

This kind of falsehood may be told for very good reasons, sometimes rationalised by suggesting it is the less of two evils. It may be used to safeguard someone from danger or even death. For instance, what if, during the second world war a German Christian decided to shelter a Jew? What would he say if the Gestapo came to his door and asked outright if he was sheltering someone?

There are records in the Bible of mis-leading statements made to save others from danger. In the book of Exodus(6) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin)we read that the Egyptian Pharaoh issued an edict that all Israeli male children should be killed at birth, but the mid-wives feared God and refused to carry out the order and so let the children live. When enquiries were made as to their reason, the mid-wives came up with the story that the Hebrew women were more lively than the Egyptian women and and so the babies were born before they could get there! It is quite possible of course that this was a valid biological fact, but the mid-wives seized on it for their defence.

There was another occasion when Israel sent spies to reconnoitre the land of Canaan prior to the invasion(7) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin). A woman by the name of Rahab gave them accommodation, and when she learned of their mission she hid them on the roof of her house. When a search party came to her door enquiring if they were there, she misled them by saying that they had been there but had departed before the city gates were shut for the night. It is interested to note that Rahab was commended in the New Testament(8) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin) for her help and faith. She was not commended however for the mis-leading statement.

In the New Testament there is a tragic incident recorded in the book of Acts(9) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin) when two of the early Christians by the name of Ananias and Sapphira deliberately deceived the Apostles concerning how much money they had given to the Church as a result of their sale of property. The lie was regarded so seriously that they both lost their lives under the judgement of God. Comparing the New Testament with the Old Testament it obviously shows a greater sensitivity to falsehood.

There are occasions when honest people are questioned directly, and they may not wish to answer for personal reasons, it should be emphasised about telling the truth that no one is obliged to answer a question unless there is a legal reason for doing so. The only trouble with a silent response is that the questioner may very well draw their own conclusions!

The Bible nowhere encourages or commends falsehood and lying, but in extreme situations one can only say that God knows the heart and the reasons for whatever answer one might give, and if falsehood was involved a sincere repentant heart would surely find ready forgiveness.

WHAT ABOUT THE DIPLOMATIC LIE?

This kind of untruth is often used when telling the straight truth might upset others' feelings, or may be used as an excuse when something has been forgotten etc. And what about those who are suffering from terminal illness? The doctor would be sure to inform the family, but how should the patient be told?

There was the case of an old lady who was in this category, but the problem solved itself. She knew the seriousness of her condition, but would not discuss it with her loved ones because she did not want them to get upset. The family also knew her condition but would not discuss it with her lest she should get upset!

In another case there was a lady whose husband was terminally ill, but he didn't realise it. She was afraid to talk about it, and because of this she suffered from a guilt complex. In her situation she was not telling a lie, but felt that she was living a lie.

People differ as to how much they can be told, but there must come a time when honesty must be served. Doctors do not play games with patients, and will at some point convey the position to the sufferer. This is only fair, because everyone should be given the opportunity to get their houses in order, materially and spiritually.

On the lighter side of the diplomatic mis-leaders, there are ways of dealing with situations evasively. Politicians are notorious mis-leaders. They will not answer a question if they feel that it will somehow incriminate them or their party. so the interviewer is treated to some complicated verbiage which sounds very impressive but skips the real answer. One member of Parliament on the BBC TODAY programme was asked the same question eight times.. still to no avail.

What about diplomacy on the domestic front? When the children ask where babies come from, or who is Santa Claus? What if the lady of the house buys a new dress and asks the family's opinion of it? If the observations are not too positive, however diplomatic they are voiced, the lady will read between the lines and sure enough the dress will be on its way back to the shop the next day. We have a friend who bought a very beautiful striking red blouse. When she asked her son what he thought about it, he said "Mum you look as though you're going to play for Manchester United!" Only a son could say that. Perhaps if the family went shopping with mum, they could make a 'united' choice!

There are times when innocent evasion is acceptable such as occasions when a surprise party is being planned etc.

Some years ago a certain drink was being advertised as a drink that reaches parts that no other drink could reach. It was reported that someone made a complaint (possibly frivolously) to the Advertising Standards Agency that the advertisement was not strictly true. The drink could not reach parts that other drinks couldn't. But the objection was dismissed on the grounds that the public knew that it was just a humorous way of advertising and no one was being deceived.

In journalism and radio work I have conducted seminars for would-be writers. It is not a pleasant thing to inform anyone that they are not up to the grade, but it can be done graciously and honestly. It may result in disappointment; after all they had travelled a long way to come to the seminar and they were very enthusiastic to present their efforts. The last thing they need is heavy criticism. In many cases they showed potential and they needed encouragement to continue in their studies, but others, who, with the best of consideration, would obviously not make it, and to pretend that they had a future would, in the long run be unfair to them. If of course we discovered at a later date that we had made a mistake, well, good for them!

EXAGGERATION AND SPIN

Human nature has a tendency to exaggerate, especially if one wants to make an impression, or persuade people. We all know of individuals who are prone to enlarge the facts. The events or folk they are describing are made much more exciting than they really are, and often not a lot of harm is done and we take most of the things they say with the proverbial pinch of salt. It is sad however when their credibility is called into question.
We have now moved into a new area of big-time exaggeration or spin as it is now known. Some newspapers have their own political agenda and will slant their reports accordingly. Truth be told some of us choose the newspapers that best encourage our prejudices!

Government departments and their spokesmen are coming more and more under pressure about their reports. There is talk about documents being 'sexed up' - whatever that means. One of course can understand any spokesman putting a favourable slant on a report, but when it involves deceit, or a deliberate desire to mislead the public, it is high time that the brakes were applied, because when intrigue is eventually discovered - and discovered it usually is - credibility is destroyed and a backlash often follows. The public is neither nor stupid. You can't fool all the people all the time!

A little lad seemed to have his ethics very simple when he said "If you always tell the truth, you never need remember what you have said". And from a higher authority when the Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus he said "Let every man speak truth with his neighbour(10) (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000077/!x-usc:http://www.watton.org/ethics/bibliography.html#spin).

Ron Bibler
11-02-2008, 03:14 PM
Dang Ted thats a lone post. did enjoy that.

( What is Truth ) ?

So Ted Do you understand all that ?

The answer is much shorter...

Best

Ron

Ted Menelly
11-02-2008, 03:36 PM
Oh, let me see.

God is truth

Ron Bibler
11-02-2008, 04:09 PM
Thanks Ted. Yes God is truth.

But thats not the answer.

Im not trying to play a game with you Ted or David or Jerry.

just trying to help...

If you want to understand conservatives / Christians.

one needs to understand this Q. ( What is Truth ) ?

To Understand progressive/moderate is easy for me.

but for you to understand conservatives / Christians.
Is hard. if not impossible?

Best

Ron

Mike Schulz
11-02-2008, 05:17 PM
Lordy be!

We need to get back to work and drop all this. Go McCain!:D

What truly makes this nation great is that we can all have different opinions and rant and rave and still be able to walk down the street and shake each others hands with respect.

If Obama wins I just hope he can at least do one of his outrages claims..........Don't raise my taxes! ;)

Ralph Stakely
11-02-2008, 05:28 PM
COPIED WITH PERMISSION.. long read, but worth the time ..(of course, you Obama kool-aid drinkers will not like it)

Subject: Cory the driller


This letter was written by a man in East Texas as an open letter to Senator Obama. He really does exist and says anyone can email his letter around, just don't change it. If you know someone who holds to the theory that the rich have life easy and need to be taxed more send it to them. This man tells it like it is!


Mr. Obama:

Given the uproar about the simple question asked you by Joe the plumber, and the persecution that has been heaped on him because he dared to question you, I find myself motivated to say a few things to you myself. While Joe aspires to start a business someday, I already have started not one, but 4 businesses. But first, let me introduce myself. You can call me "Cory the well driller". I am a 54 year old high school graduate. I didn't go to college like you, I was too ready to go "conquer the world" when I finished high school. 25 years ago at age 29, I started my own water well drilling business at a time when the economy here in East Texas was in a tailspin from the crash of the early 80's oil boom. I didn't get any help from the government, nor did I look for any. I borrowed what I could from my sister, my uncle, and even the pawn shop and managed to scrape together a homemade drill rig and a few tools to do my first job. My businesses did not start as a result of privilege. They are the result of my personal drive, personal ambition, self discipline, self reliance, and a determination to treat my customers fairly.

From the very start my business provided one other (than myself) East Texan a full time job. I couldn't afford a backhoe the first few years (something every well drilling business had), so I and my helper had to dig the mud pits that are necessary for each and every job with hand shovels. I had to use my 10 year old, 1/2 ton pickup truck for my water tank truck (normally a job for at least a 2 ton truck). A year and a half after I started the business, I scraped together a 20% down payment to get a modest bank loan and bought a (28 year) old, worn out, slightly bigger drilling rig to allow me to drill the deeper water wells in my area. I spent the next few years drilling wells with the rig while simultaneously rebuilding it between jobs.

Through these years I never knew from one month to the next if I would have any work or be able to pay the bills. I got behind on my income taxes one year, and spent the next two years paying that back (with penalty and interest) while keeping up with ongoing taxes. I got behind on my water well supply bill 2 different years (way behind the second time... $80,000.00), and spent over a year paying it back (each time) while continuing to pay for ongoing supplies C.O.D.. Of course, the personal stress endured through these experiences and years is hard to measure. I do have a stent in my heart now to memorialize it all. I spent the next 10 years developing the reputation for being the most competent and most honest water well driller in East Texas. 2 years along the way, I hired another full time employee for the drilling business so that we could provide full time water well pump service as well as the well drilling. Also, 3 years along the path, I bought a water well screen service machine from a friend, starting business # 2. 5 years later I made a business loan for $100,000.00 to build a new, higher production, computer controlled screen service machine. I had designed the machine myself, and it didn't work out for 3 years so I had to make the loan payments without the benefit of any added income from the new machine.

No government program was there to help me with the payments, or to help me sleep at night as I lay awake wondering how I would solve my machine problems or pay my bills. Finally, after 3 years, I got the screen machine working properly, and that provided another full time job for an East Texan in the screen service business. 2 years after that, I made another business loan, this time for $250,000.00, to buy another used drilling rig and all the support equipment needed to run another, larger, drill rig. This provided another 2 full time jobs for East Texans. Again, I spent a couple of years not knowing if I had made a smart move, or a move that would bankrupt me. For the third time in 13 years, I had placed everything I owned on the line, risking everything, in order to build a business. A couple of years into this, I came up with a bright idea for a new kind of mud pump, a fundamentally necessary pump used on water well drill rigs. I spent my entire life savings to date (just $30,000.00), building a prototype of the pump and took it to the national water well convention to show it off. Customers immediately started coming out of the woodworks to buy the pumps, but there was a problem. I had depleted my assets making the prototype, and nobody would make me a business loan to start production of the new pumps. With several deposits for pump orders in hand, and nowhere to go, I finally started applying for as many credit card as I could find and took cash withdrawals on these cards to the tune of over $150,000.00 (including modest loans from my dear sister and brother), to get this 3rd business going.

Yes, once again, I had everything hanging over the line in an effort to start another business. I had never manufactured anything, and I had to design and bring into production a complex hydraulic machine from an untested prototype to a reliable production model (in six months). How many nights I lay awake wondering if I had just made the paramount mistake of my life I cannot tell you, but there were plenty. I managed to get the pumps into production, which immediately created another 2 full time jobs in East Texas. Some of the models in the first year suffered from quality issues due to the poor workmanship of one of my key suppliers, so I and an employee (another East Texan employed) had to drive across the country to repair customers' pumps, practically from coast to coast. I stood behind the product, and made payments to all the credit cards that had financed me (and my brother and sister). I spent the next 5 years improving and refining the product, building a reputation for the pump and the company, working to get the pump into drill rig manufacturers' product lines, and paying back credit cards. During all this time I continued to manage a growing water well business that was now operating 3 drill rig crews, and 2 well service crews. Also, the screen service business continued to grow.

No government programs were there to help me, Mr. Obama, but that's ok, I didn't expect any, nor did I want any. I was too busy fighting to make success happen to sit around waiting for the government to help me. Now, we have been manufacturing the mud pumps for 7 years, my combined businesses employ 32 full time employees, and distribute $5,000,000.00 annually through the local economy. Now, just 4 months ago I borrowed $1,254,000.00, purchasing computer controlled machining equipment to start my 4th business, a production machine shop. The machine shop will serve the mud pump company so that we can better manufacture our pumps that are being shipped worldwide. Of course, the machine shop will also do work for outside companies as well. This has already produced 2 more full time jobs, and 2 more should develop out of it in the next few months. This should work out, but if it doesn't it will be because you, and the other professional politicians like yourself, will have destroyed our countrys' (and the world) economy with your meddling with mortgage loan programs through your liberal manipulation and intimidation of loaning institutions to make sure that unqualified borrowers could get mortgages.

You see, at the very time when I couldn't get a business loan to get my mud pumps into production, you were working with Acorn and the Community Reinvestment Act programs to make sure that unqualified borrowers could buy homes with no down payment, and even no credit or worse yet, bad credit. Even the infamous, liberal, Ninja loans (No Income, No Job or Assets). While these unqualified borrowers were enjoying unrealistically low interest rates, I was paying 22% to 24% interest on the credit cards that I had used to provide me the funds for the mud pump business that has created jobs for more East Texans. It's funny, because after 25 years of turning almost every dime of extra money back into my businesses to grow them, it has been only in the last two years that I have finally made enough money to be able to put a little away for retirement, and now the value of that has dropped 40% because of the policies you and your ilk have perpetrated on our country.

You see, Mr. Obama, I'm the guy you intend to raise taxes on. I'm the guy who has spent 25 years toiling and sweating, fretting and fighting, stressing and risking, to build a business and get ahead. I'm the guy who has been on the very edge of bankruptcy more than a dozen times over the last 25 years, and all the while creating more and more jobs for East Texans who didn't want to take a risk, and would not demand from themselves what I have demanded from myself. I'm the guy you characterize as "the Americans who can afford it the most" that you believe should be taxed more to provide income redistribution "to spread the wealth" to those who have never toiled, sweated, fretted, fought, stressed, or risked anything. You want to characterize me as someone who has enjoyed a life of privilege and who needs to pay a higher percentage of my income than those who have bought into your entitlement culture.

I resent you, Mr. Obama, as I resent all who want to use class warfare as a tool to advance their political career. What's worse, each year more Americans buy into your liberal entitlement culture, and turn to the government for their hope of a better life instead of themselves. Liberals are succeeding through more than 40 years of collaborative effort between the predominant liberal media, and liberal indoctrination programs in the public school systems across our land. What is so terribly sad about this is this. America was made great by people who embraced the one-time American culture of self reliance, self motivation, self determination, self discipline, personal betterment, hard work, risk taking. A culture built around the concept that success was in reach of every able bodied American who would strive for it. Each year that less Americans embrace that culture, we all descend together. We descend down the socialist path that has brought country after country ultimately to bitter and unremarkable states.

If you and your liberal comrades in the media and school systems would spend half as much effort cultivating a culture of can-do across America as you do cultivating your entitlement culture, we could see Americans at large embracing the conviction that they can elevate themselves through personal betterment, personal achievement, and self reliance. You see, when people embrace such ideals, they act on them. When people act on such ideals, they succeed. All of America could find herself elevating instead of deteriorating. But that would eliminate the need for liberal politicians, wouldn't it, Mr. Obama? The country would not need you if the country was convinced that problem solving was best left with individuals instead of the government. You and all your liberal comrades have got a vested interested in creating a dependent class in our country. It is the very business of liberals to create an ever expanding dependence on government. What's remarkable is that you, who have never produced a job in your life, are going to tax me to take more of my money and give it to people who wouldn't need my money if they would get off their entitlement mentality asses and apply themselves at work, demand more from themselves, and quit looking to liberal politicians to raise their station in life.

You see, I know because I've had them work for me before. Hundreds of them over these 25 years. People who simply will not show up to work on time. People who just will not work 5 days in a week, much less, 6 days. People always looking for a way to put less effort out. People who actually tell me that they would do more if I just would first pay them more. People who take off work to sit in government offices to apply to get free government handouts (gee, I wonder how things would have turned out for them if they had spent that time earning money and pleasing their employer?). You see, all of this comes from your entitlement mentality culture.

Oh, I know you will say I am uncompassionate. Sorry, Mr. Obama, wrong again. You see, I've seen what the average percentage of your income has been given to charities over the years of 2000 to 2004 (ignoring the years you started running for office - can you pronounce "politically motivated"), you averaged less than 1% annually. And your running mate, Joe Biden, averaged less than ¼% of his annual income in charitable contributions over the last 10 years. Like so many liberals, the two of you want to give to the needy, just as long as it is someone else's money you are giving to them. I won't say what I have given to charities over the last 25 years, but the percentage is several times more than you and Joe Biden. combined (don't you just hate google?). Tell me again how you feel my pain.

In short, Mr. Obama, your political philosophies represent everything that is wrong with our country. You represent the culture of government dependence instead of self reliance; Entitlement mentality instead of personal achievement; Penalization of the successful to reward the unmotivated; Political correctness instead of open mindedness and open debate. If you are successful, you may preside over the final transformation of America from being the greatest and most self-reliant culture on earth, to just another country of whiners and wimps, who sit around looking to the government to solve their problems. Like all of western Europe. All countries on the decline. All countries that, because of liberal socialistic mentalities, have a little less to offer mankind every year.

God help us,

Cory Miller (Just an ordinary, extraordinary American, the way a lot of Americans used to be.)

P.S. Yes, Mr. Obama, I am a real American... C. Miller Drilling (http://www.cmillerdrilling.com) <http://www.cmillerdrilling.com/>

Jerry Peck
11-02-2008, 05:48 PM
Oh, let me see.

God is truth


Thanks Ted. Yes God is truth.

But thats not the answer.

Ron,

Correct. That is not the answer.

Is suspect Ted was 'funnin' with you' because you only listen to what you want to hear (read). Ted will correct me if I am wrong. And, because that is all you wanted the hear (read), then you would carry on until you got what you wanted.

God is NOT "truth". "god" is "fable", verbal and written stories passed down throughout history by many different peoples. It is simply a history of how they tried to explain natural phenomena for which they had no knowledge of and no way to explain, other than some "god" 'did it', 'took care of it', etc..

To understand "What is Truth?" one must first be willing to set aside their prejudices and preconceptions and open their minds to all potentials. ONLY THEN can one discover what "Truth" really is.

Jerry Peck
11-02-2008, 05:53 PM
COPIED WITH PERMISSION.. long read, but worth the time ..(of course, you Obama kool-aid drinkers will not like it)

Ralph,

I could waste more time and space on Brian's server by simply copying McCain's record and claims for the last umpteen years here, and ... (of course, you McCain kool-aid drinkers would not like it at all ... to be reminded of what he really is) ...

So I won't.

I respect the time of the other members here more than to bother them with that drivel.

You will never convince anyone but a McCain kool-aid-drinker that you are right, and, after Tuesday ... :p ... that may be nothing more than barroom talk. :)

You know, talking about that great recovery and 8 years under that Obama person, and 4 years with Hilary as Vive President so she could be prepped and ready for 8 years of Hillary as President to follow that 8 years of Obama - and how are you going to recover from 16 years of prosperity which went against all of your beliefs and understandings. :D

Ron Bibler
11-02-2008, 06:10 PM
Sorry Jerry thats not the answer.

Best

Ron

Jerry Peck
11-02-2008, 06:21 PM
Sorry Jerry thats not the answer.


Sorry Ron, that *IS* the answer.

Anything else and you are just kidding yourself, deluding yourself, based on your own beliefs.

Ron Bibler
11-02-2008, 06:37 PM
Sorry Ron, that *IS* the answer.

Anything else and you are just kidding yourself, deluding yourself, based on your own beliefs.

Jerry you state that like its the end all fact. In order for you to say that you would need to be GOD. Only then would you know all things. I don't think you know every thing about every thing...

You have had 3 trys at this little Q. And you have been wrong 3 times...

Q. ( What is truth ) ?

Best

Ron

Ted Menelly
11-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Ron

Asking "what is truth' with out a context to go by is almost like asking "What is Love"

Depending on the context or ones particular feelings and emotions are at a particular time "What is Truth" could mean there is no truth!

I have watched shows where the question was "What is Love" Everyone had a different understanding and meaning.

Truth is ones belief. Truth is upbringing. Truth is compassion. Truth is just ones belief in a particular subject matter. Truth is Love.

Ted Menelly
11-02-2008, 07:08 PM
OK Ron

Times up. The buzzer whent off and everyone is not sure of the answer and not coming back with an answer//


Fess up.

"What is Truth"

Ralph Stakely
11-02-2008, 10:00 PM
What IS Truth??

The whole matter depends on "What the meaning of IS IS."

OK JP, you finally admitted it.. You are an atheist. NO GOD, excepting for yourself. I'll be praying for you, as I did this morning while I was "repenting" in the church of my "choice."

As far as "wasting time..... (As you yourself have previously posted, "This is the non-techincal area of the forum, where any (ANY) subject can be discussed.")
As long as it's not banned by the terms/code of conduct set forth by the owner. I see no one holding a gun to your head making you read the posts and then you, yourself "wasting" others time by *your self proclaimed godship* ravings. (ie: No one is ever correct except for me(meaning you "JP".) If they have the temerity to question me, then they are stupid, idiots, low life , ignorant, God clinging, dumb, useless, uneducated, hard headed, intolerant, waste of humanity.

You still haven't addressed my question of "Why do you stoop to name calling?"

(I don't have time to go back and read all the names you have called people here, but if you were to check some of your previous 17,000 posts, (I'm duly impressed) and read what you said, you might get an idea that your people skills are severely lacking.)(OR NOT!!)

Just remember,
God has His eye on you. He has kept you from hurting yourself many times in the past.

He still loves you and wants the best for you.
I, also, wish you the best. My heart hurts for you.
That's the only reason I keep trying to get through to you.


Phil 4:13 (for the non Bible readers, "I can do all things through Him that strengthens me."
Ralph

Edit note: Sorry I have to keep editing for typos. I only attended Yale University. (Guess that puts me in the same uneducated league as PRESIDENT George Bush)

Scott Patterson
11-03-2008, 06:40 AM
Anyone know the price of rice in China?

Richard Stanley
11-03-2008, 07:01 AM
Anyone know the price of rice in China?

Like everything else, it's gone down since the olympics.

Mike Schulz
11-03-2008, 09:01 AM
Nice post Ralph,
It's funny how the liberals glossed right over it and ignored it's message. They dispute it but can't say it's not true. Blind sheep to the slaughter house.

I only have one Inspection lined up this week so far. Would you liberals please send me some money. Email me and I will give you my address.

Jerry Peck
11-03-2008, 09:07 AM
What IS Truth??

The whole matter depends on "What the meaning of IS IS."

OK JP, you finally admitted it.. You are an atheist. NO GOD, excepting for yourself. I'll be praying for you, as I did this morning while I was "repenting" in the church of my "choice."

As far as "wasting time..... (As you yourself have previously posted, "This is the non-techincal area of the forum, where any (ANY) subject can be discussed.")
As long as it's not banned by the terms/code of conduct set forth by the owner. I see no one holding a gun to your head making you read the posts and then you, yourself "wasting" others time by *your self proclaimed godship* ravings. (ie: No one is ever correct except for me(meaning you "JP".) If they have the temerity to question me, then they are stupid, idiots, low life , ignorant, God clinging, dumb, useless, uneducated, hard headed, intolerant, waste of humanity.

You still haven't addressed my question of "Why do you stoop to name calling?"

(I don't have time to go back and read all the names you have called people here, but if you were to check some of your previous 17,000 posts, (I'm duly impressed) and read what you said, you might get an idea that your people skills are severely lacking.)(OR NOT!!)

Just remember,
God has His eye on you. He has kept you from hurting yourself many times in the past.

He still loves you and wants the best for you.
I, also, wish you the best. My heart hurts for you.
That's the only reason I keep trying to get through to you.


Phil 4:13 (for the non Bible readers, "I can do all things through Him that strengthens me."
Ralph

Edit note: Sorry I have to keep editing for typos. I only attended Yale University. (Guess that puts me in the same uneducated league as PRESIDENT George Bush)

Ralph,

Your post is a pathetic attempt to justify your own beliefs, push them onto others, and make you think you are not doing either.

If that is what you need, go for it.

Your insistence that YOUR god has to forgive others is your way of NOT ACCEPTING your limitations regarding your religious choice and beliefs.

So be it.

Mike Schulz is in the same position as you are, based on his post.

When you grow up and get ideas and understandings of your own, you will be able to relate to, and accept, the positions of others.

Cheers, guys. :rolleyes:

Jerry Peck
11-03-2008, 09:09 AM
Anyone know the price of rice in China?

Scott,

Ummm ... well, that was one way to try to re-direct this thread ... ;)

How about the price of rice in China as it relates to the price of rice of the US? :D

We could discuss that at length. :cool:

Mike Schulz
11-03-2008, 09:22 AM
Jerry my post was in reference to the Miller drilling. I said it before that people can believe in what ever God they choose. It doesn't matter to me. I personally have my own beliefs and it's not the traditional ones. Don't drag me into Ralph's and your dispute..........;)

Michael Larson
11-03-2008, 09:57 AM
You would be treating your fellow man with respect, not the contempt you are showing. Your hypocrisy is leaking out all over.

ANYONE who wants to respond to this post may, REGARDLESS of your belief.Jerry,

Are you making the case that only Atheist's are allowed to display the disrespect and contempt you show here on a regular basis? :p

Let's also not for get the the concept of God has been on our coinage for well over a century.

History of 'In God We Trust' (http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml)

Dave Hill
11-03-2008, 10:02 AM
Hi Guys,

Sorry to but in. I just wanted to say....

PLEASE be sure to vote tomorrow, make sure all your voting age family and friends do to.

I know who I'm voting for, but will keep that to myself.

Have a great day!

Jerry Peck
11-03-2008, 10:41 AM
Jerry my post was in reference to the Miller drilling. I said it before that people can believe in what ever God they choose. It doesn't matter to me. I personally have my own beliefs and it's not the traditional ones. Don't drag me into Ralph's and your dispute..........;)

Mike,

My apologies, I thought you were referencing *the other* part of his post. :o

Sorry.

"I personally have my own beliefs and it's not the traditional ones."

Define "traditional"? :)

"Traditional" to whom? Hindus? Muslims? Buddhas? Christians of which faith and denomination? (That last part should say more than is enough to answer their questions.)

Maybe your beliefs ARE "traditional"? :cool:

Jerry Peck
11-03-2008, 10:44 AM
Are you making the case that only Atheist's

Michael,

There you go, picking up on something SOMEONE ELSE said ... thus, you will have to ASK THEM for those answers. :cool:

Remember, if you do not read all the posts all the way through, you are likely to (as you just did) repeat something said by others and attribute it to another ... :rolleyes:

Peace, Love, and ... put that tie-dye down!

Michael Larson
11-03-2008, 11:10 AM
The answer, Ron, is that *if you really were a "Christian" ... yes ... " *if you really were a "Christan"* " ... you would not be asking that question.

You would be treating your fellow man with respect, not the contempt you are showing. Your hypocrisy is leaking out all over.

ANYONE who wants to respond to this post may, REGARDLESS of your belief.Jerry,

It's obvious to most that you were ridiculing Ron's belief.

And that YOU accused him of lack of respect for others and of hypocrisy.

It is my opinion that you show disrespect toward others here often, whether you are an Atheist or not.

I think most here can see that regardless of their beliefs.

But hey, it's only my opinion so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

Mike Schulz
11-03-2008, 11:18 AM
I need to change this posting to "spread the word" not "spread the wealth" :D

To all of you that posted thanks for your input. It is good to vent among friends.:rolleyes: :)

Jerry Peck
11-03-2008, 01:19 PM
It's obvious to most that you were ridiculing Ron's belief.

Then it is obvious that you are clueless.

I am pointing out Ron's preaching to others instead of doing what he professes to be - THAT is what is obvious to others.[/quote]

Michael Larson
11-03-2008, 01:50 PM
Then it is obvious that you are clueless.

I am pointing out Ron's preaching to others instead of doing what he professes to be - THAT is what is obvious to others.And your response to my calling you out on your own lack of respect and hypocrisy?

You remain strangely silent.:(

Jerry Peck
11-03-2008, 05:51 PM
And your response to my calling you out on your own lack of respect and hypocrisy?

You remain strangely silent.:(

Michael,

Like much of what you write ... it simply was not worth responding to.

Ralph Stakely
11-03-2008, 10:10 PM
JP.
At no time have I ever tried to RAM anything down anyone"s throat.. I have only expressed my opinion and my beliefs, of which you are very disrespectful and show disdain toward. As I have said before and will again so you can READ-IT-AGAIN>> *YOU-ARE-FREE-TO--BELIEVE-WHATEVER-YOU-WISH.* (no matter how wrong it is)
It seems to strike a nerve with you whenever someone shares their personal beliefs. Do I sense some self doubt??

But, it is my right to express my opinion, whether you think so or not. (Americans still have the right to Freedom of speech.. (up till now anyway.)

Still no response to "*name calling"*


When I "*grow up*", I hope I have more respect for others beliefs than you do.

My "mission" in life is to "go unto the uttermost parts of the earth and make disciples as I go."

I have *faced* tougher critics than you, many times.
But, at least, they were courteous and polite.
One even told me. *"You can talk till you're blue in the face. I'm not going to change my mind." But he was nice about it. Didn't call names and deride my convictions.

BTW< you don't have to copy and repeat my posts and waste Brians valuable space. I know what I said.

NAME CALLING???????? Awaiting an answer...

(Oh, I guess that's another one that doesn't deserve a response.)

GOD LOVES YOU>>>>

Signed..
Ralphy Baby...Jehovah's servant..

Patrick McCaffery
11-04-2008, 05:54 AM
I agree with Ted on the flat tax rate and no deductions. How about Ted for President?

Jerry Peck
11-04-2008, 07:42 AM
When I "*grow up*", I hope I have more respect for others beliefs than you do.

And ... HOPEFULLY ... more than you do now, certainly more than you are showing in that post.

Jack Feldmann
11-04-2008, 01:20 PM
"What is truth?"
Wasn't that what Pilate asked Jesus before he was crucified?

Richard Stanley
11-04-2008, 03:38 PM
Doesn't pilate sell that exercize stuff?

Jerry McCarthy
11-04-2008, 08:07 PM
Ah.... forget it.

Ted Menelly
11-04-2008, 08:37 PM
It’s totally unbelievable that there are persons who would post such ridiculous statements about Jesus when it’s so obvious they truly have no basic understanding of what the Christian religion was founded on. You have got to believe that Jesus is really pissed, but I suspect he threw up his hands years ago and figured it was best to let all the morons and idiots in the world beat each other to death with their crazy dogma about whose God is really the true God and what his/her wishes are really all about? Anyway, you got to feel sorry for Obama as he attended a Catholic school so you know he has no shortage of guilt, but at the very least he will be our next president. I cannot help but feel sorry for him.

I just said the same thing in another thread. I feel sorry for Obama becoming President elect. I would feel sorry for anyone that became president at the particular time.

Hey, I am Catholic. Do you feel sorry for me?

Jack Feldmann
11-04-2008, 08:59 PM
Pontius Pilate - you moron.

Victor DaGraca
11-05-2008, 05:52 AM
Moron.... Isn't that the Saint that visited Joseph Smith and led to the forming of the church of latter day saints?

Richard Stanley
11-05-2008, 06:51 AM
"Pontius Pilate - you moron."

Oh, that one!
A rock group from the 60's / 70's.
Pontius pilate and the nail driving nine.