TPR extension

[Brian Thomas]

I was hoping someone could help me with a TPR extension question. Unfortunately I dont have a pic of it because the pipe was probably 10 feet long or more and it had several elbows in it.

The situation was, the extension came out of the tank and then down via a few 90 elbows, then ran along a wall to the other side of the room. It then had a couple more elbows before eventually discahrging into a sump pump crock. I was unable to see the end of the pipe as the lid was bolted to the concrete floor.

I was under the impression that you had to see the end of the extension and that it should not have any elbows in it. And is it even allowed to empty into a sump pump crock?

[Jerry Peck]

Brian,

The requirements for the T&P relief valve discharge line have changed during the past couple of code cycles.

The 'old way' - it was this way for many years - was that the T&P discharge line had to:
- drain dry (be slope downhill)
- have not more than 4 elbows in it
- not be longer than 30 feet
- have the end 6" above grade
- discharge to the outdoors or to a floor drain (wording to that affect)

The 'new way' is that the T&P discharge line must end in the same room or space as the water heater is in, and it gets more complicated from there.

I prefer the 'old way', but the code addresses them through the 'new way'.

[Ron Bibler]

I like the new way. had one the other day that the plumber stuck the pipe in the floor that went into an inaccessible sub-area.

The new way has the pipe in view. so if something is wrong you know before its to late.

Best

Ron

[Ted Menelly]

Hmmm is all I have to say to that as well. And what might have been wrong with the old way for it to be changed. Hmmmmm.

[Jerry Peck]

And what might have been wrong with the old way for it to be changed.


Old way: Water drains to exterior, draining water causes no problems, the home owner knows about it because the draining water is hot water and they now have less hot water, so, the call the plumber to find out why they have less hot water.

New way: Water drains to interior, flooding house and causing damage. If homeowner does see water draining from the line they ... no, they do not call the plumber, we all see what they do, they cap that sucker off so it does not leak.

The theory for changing it was that the homeowner would see the water and call the plumber, yeah, right, the homeowner see the water and they know what to do, they stop the leak.

I like the old way.

[Brian Thomas]

OK so is the answer to my questions "is it ok to drain to a sump pump crock? and is it ok to not be able to see the end because it was in a sealed crock?" Im thinking no on both, but not sure what to advise the client on this one.

Keep in mind that this will be my first actual solo paid inspection so I wanna make sure I get this one right.

[daniel nantell]

Congradulation on your first fee paid Inspection, with this ecomony dont give up your day job, as sales are way down. I had to chase Hurricanes with fema to make a little additional money because of slow home sales.good luck

[Jerry Peck]

OK so is the answer to my questions "is it ok to drain to a sump pump crock? and is it ok to not be able to see the end because it was in a sealed crock?" Im thinking no on both, but not sure what to advise the client on this one.

Correct. It does not met either the old way or the new way, and, to my knowledge, it was never allowed that way. At the very least it would have required an air gap above the sump, minimum 6" and maximum 6" (yeah, * 6 inches*).


Keep in mind that this will be my first actual solo paid inspection so I wanna make sure I get this one right.

Congratulations.

And, yes, you will be correct that *it should not have been done that way*. :cool:

Which is different from *you will not get any flak over stating that*. :eek:

[Brian Thomas]

OK thanks jerry, I appreciate it. I didnt think it was correct so I will just advise him as such.

Fortunately, for me, I am able to ride out the slow times for a bit longer than someone that depends on more inspections. I am a stay at home dad so I was not in the work force for 2 years prior to HI. So now, any income is good income for me. At some point, I will want to make this a full time thing but for now, its ok being part time.

[Ron Bibler]

Brian if you don't have a killer web-stie going now. Get one and start working on first in line in you are. pic you city name as the domain name
center. A good web-stie is so key to get inspection from buyer and home owners.

Best

Ron

[Bob Spermo]

Jerry,

I have a question for you. What code requires the TPR drain to discharge in the same room? The 2006 IRC still says it can terminate outside (P2803.6.1) Is there a plumbing code that makes the "room requirement"? Thanks! Everyone have a nice holiday!

[Jerry McCarthy]

For the left coast guys and gals:
CPC-2007- 608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper piping and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to The outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152mm) above the ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building’s crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.

(I underlined the new section per the 2007 California Plumbing Code.)

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry,

I have a question for you. What code requires the TPR drain to discharge in the same room? The 2006 IRC still says it can terminate outside (P2803.6.1) Is there a plumbing code that makes the "room requirement"? Thanks! Everyone have a nice holiday!


Bob,

Read P2803.6.1 (your reference) .2

(underlining is mine)

2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

[David OKeefe]

Brian,
Congratulations on your first inspection. I had my first paid inspection in September. I was glad it was a simple inspection, ranch on a slab with electric heat and hot water. Apparently I did a good job, buyers wanted some of my cards to give to their friends. Oh,and the best part was the check didn't bounce.:)

[Bob Spermo]

Jerry,

What does 2803.1.5 mean when it says discharge to the outdoors? The air gap in the room and the drain continues outside? What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?

[Brian Thomas]

Brian,
Congratulations on your first inspection. I had my first paid inspection in September. I was glad it was a simple inspection, ranch on a slab with electric heat and hot water. Apparently I did a good job, buyers wanted some of my cards to give to their friends. Oh,and the best part was the check didn't bounce.:)


Thanks David...congratulations to you too on your first one. Have you had any other jobs yet?

I hope I did a good job as well. It took me awhile because my flow isnt down pat just yet but I think it went well anyway. Mine was fairly easy too as it was a split level that was all electric with no central a/c/heat pump.

[Edward Loughran]

I think that there is some confusion in the meaning of discharge and terminate.
The "New Way" also says the discharge pipe shall not cause personal injury or structural damage.

[Dom D'Agostino]

Jerry,

I have a question for you. What code requires the TPR drain to discharge in the same room?





Bob,

Read P2803.6.1 (your reference) .2

(underlining is mine)

2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.



I believe if you read that section/sentence, it states the discharge pipe "air gap" should be in the same room as the water heater, not the discharge.

Dom.

[Ted Menelly]

Jerry,

What does 2803.1.5 mean when it says discharge to the outdoors? The air gap in the room and the drain continues outside? What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?

Sometimes there is just an oops in the thinking when things are redone. They do not always account for all scenarios. This is one of those cases where I just go with the norm or old way until all questions and unit locations are addressed. You cannot go changing anything unless those scenarios are addressed. To much else to consider. What if it is in a closet. Does a separate drain have to be installed with an air gap between the termination and drain. What if it is in a cellar. Does a separate drain and drainage system have to be installed or do you just blow it on the floor with the pipe stopping six inches above the floor. To much to consider and to much possible expense. Yes a leaking TPR valve may not get noticed until the next time you mow the grass but it will be noticed. Not all humans are idiots and most will see that a plumber corrects the concern. Sometimes the thinking community just over and out thinks themselves. Sometimes that is the problem with people just sitting around having a think tank situation. Sometimes things are better left the way they are.

I was not going to give my 2 cents until I saw all other posts on the matter. Drain it to the exterior and leave it alone. Maybe a leak every several years. So what. It will get repaired.

JMO

[Jerry Peck]

What does 2803.1.5 mean when it says discharge to the outdoors? The air gap in the room and the drain continues outside? What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?


I believe if you read that section/sentence, it states the discharge pipe "air gap" should be in the same room as the water heater, not the discharge.


- P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:


- - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system. (Jerry's note: Means that "it may" be connected to the drainage system, just "not directly connected to" the drainage system, it needs an air gap.)

- - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater. (Jerry's note: The discharge pipe discharge through the air gap, and ends there at the air gap, after the air gap is an indirect waste receptor, which has a drain line which, if using an air gap, then drains to the outdoors.)

- - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap. (Jerry's note: Obvious what that say, do not reduce the valve outlet down to a smaller size.)
- - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment. (Jerry's note: Shall serve only that one relief valve.)
- - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area. (Jerry's note: The discharge pipe may discharge to the floor, to an indirect waster receptor - 2. above -, or to the outdoors - if the water heater is installed outdoors.)
- - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage. (Jerry's note: Regardless where it discharges to, it is not allowed to cause personal injury.)
- - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants. (Jerry's note: Means you are not allowed to hide it, which brings up the question: are water heaters now allowed in closets where the discharge is not readily observable by the occupants?)
- - 8. Not be trapped. (Jerry's note: That one is obvious.)
- - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity. (Jerry's note: If it is not trapped, then it must drain by gravity, which means slope downhill.)
- - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor. (Jerry's note: The termination must be within 6" of the floor or water receptor to control the discharge and help prevent it from injuring the occupants.)
- - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping. (Jerry's note: So no valve, cap or other device can easily be attached.)
- - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings. (Jerry's note: Nothing to restrict or impede the flow.)
- - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1. (Jerry's note: Be of materials suitable for use with potable hot water).


Drain it to the exterior and leave it alone. Maybe a leak every several years. So what. It will get repaired.

Ted,

I agree.

With the valve open and flowing, the danger is going, the pressure is gone, the hot water is being cooled by the incoming cold water. When it leaks enough, there will be almost no hot water, THAT is when they call the plumber.

The way it is being done now, they just simply cap it off to stop the leak.

[Dom D'Agostino]

- P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:



Jerry,

I'm not going to read all those paragraphs and sift through your parentheticals to try to understand what you're saying. And it's not really necessary.

Bottom line, discharge air gap is not a discharge exit.

Dom.

[Jerry Peck]

Bottom line, discharge air gap is not a discharge exit.


Dom,

Not wanting to read the complex information is what stymies you sometimes. When you do not read it all and only quote a part you think is applicable, you put yourself in the position of being incorrect because, if you were to read the entire thing, you would clearly see the requirements ARE quite clearly stated.

Bottom line is the discharge terminates IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE WATER HEATER.

"2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater."

It only "terminates in the same room" through an air gap when it "terminates into the air gap".

Thus, if continued on out of that room, the discharge terminated at the top of the air gap, which then discharged into the waste receptor at the bottom of the air gap, which then drained ("discharged") out somewhere else - "outdoors" is one of the options for that drain pipe to "discharge".

From the air gap, is is no longer that same "discharge pipe" as, by code, that "discharge pipe" has *just terminated* ... at the air gap. The pipe at the bottom of the air gap is a different animal.

[Dom D'Agostino]

Happy Thanksgiving Jerry.

[A.D. Miller]

2006 IRC Commentary says:

"The do’s and don’ts for relief valve discharge pipes are extensive, as illustrated by the list of 13 items. Relief valves are emergency devices that are not intended to operate continuously. Any discharge must not go unnoticed, because discharge from a relief valve indicates that something is seriously wrong with the system. The termination of a relief valve discharge must be visible for observation so that corrective measures can be taken as necessary. If a relief valve discharges to a drainage system, the discharge must be an indirect connection through an air gap to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system. The diameter of the discharge pipe must not be reduced or be less than the diameter of the relief valve outlet. To maintain the rated capacity of the valve, the developed length of relief valve discharge piping is limited by the valve and/or appliance manufacturer’s instructions. Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors. Note that in all cases, the relief discharge pipe must discharge through an air gap before extending beyond the room in which the valve is located. The discharge pipe must terminate close to the floor level to prevent harm to building occupants (see Commentary Figure P2801.5). Water must not be allowed to discharge where it can cause structural damage. Discharge piping must drain by gravity and must not be trapped within the relief piping system. Standing water in the discharge line could freeze or cause corrosion damage to the valve mechanism. To discourage the installation of a cap, plug or valve, the code prohibits the installation of threads on the outlet end of such pipe. A relief valve discharge pipe cannot serve any other purpose or connect to any other piping because this could compromise the function of the relief valve."

Also see: Watts Water Safety and Flow Control Products - balancing valve, ball valve, butterfly valve, check valve, relief valve, temperature gauge (http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/support/support_t-p.asp)

Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building.

Aaron

[Jerry Peck]

Aaron,

Elvis *has* left the building :( , whenever you see him, you are seeing an impersonator. :cool:

The same with the discharge line, the "old way" has left the building, the "new way" allows for an impersonation of the "old way" in that it now requires an air gap before the discharge leaves the room the water heater is in. :)

(underlining and bold are mine)

2006 IRC Commentary says:

"The do’s and don’ts for relief valve discharge pipes are extensive, as illustrated by the list of 13 items. Relief valves are emergency devices that are not intended to operate continuously. Any discharge must not go unnoticed, because discharge from a relief valve indicates that something is seriously wrong with the system. The termination of a relief valve discharge must be visible for observation so that corrective measures can be taken as necessary. If a relief valve discharges to a drainage system, the discharge must be an indirect connection through an air gap to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system. The diameter of the discharge pipe must not be reduced or be less than the diameter of the relief valve outlet. To maintain the rated capacity of the valve, the developed length of relief valve discharge piping is limited by the valve and/or appliance manufacturer’s instructions. Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors. Note that in all cases, the relief discharge pipe must discharge through an air gap before extending beyond the room in which the valve is located. The discharge pipe must terminate close to the floor level to prevent harm to building occupants (see Commentary Figure P2801.5). Water must not be allowed to discharge where it can cause structural damage. Discharge piping must drain by gravity and must not be trapped within the relief piping system. Standing water in the discharge line could freeze or cause corrosion damage to the valve mechanism. To discourage the installation of a cap, plug or valve, the code prohibits the installation of threads on the outlet end of such pipe. A relief valve discharge pipe cannot serve any other purpose or connect to any other piping because this could compromise the function of the relief valve."

Also see: Watts Water Safety and Flow Control Products - balancing valve, ball valve, butterfly valve, check valve, relief valve, temperature gauge (http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/support/support_t-p.asp)

Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building.

Aaron

[Richard Stanley]

"Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors."

This indicates that the units will no longer be allowed to be installed in un-heated attics, garages, exterior compartments, etc.

[Jerry Peck]

"Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors."

This indicates that the units will no longer be allowed to be installed in un-heated attics, garages, exterior compartments, etc.

Richard,

GREAT CATCH! :cool:

That is what it is saying the reason is. :)

[Ted Menelly]

"Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors."

This *indicates* that the units will no longer be allowed to be installed in un-heated attics, garages, exterior compartments, etc.

But it does not mean you cannot have it in unheated spaces. It "indicates". Freezing climates, maybe. Temperate climates should not matter. There is enough heat escape in attics in temperate climate where this is not a concern. If I still lived in Mass I would not put my water heater in an attic or garage that is not heated anyway. So, by saying that it has not changed at all.

If you still run the discharge to the exterior the end of the pipe where it exits the home is exposed. Again if you live up north this is not a good idea anyway and usually does not happen. So in that case nothing has changed. More temperate climates would not affect it so this has not changes either.

Discharging through an air gap I can only think this was added is to possibly cut down end of line pressure, maybe. Not quite sure what that is all about.

A little edit

Aaron said "not entirely"

"Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building."

[A.D. Miller]

Aaron,

Elvis *has* left the building :( , whenever you see him, you are seeing an impersonator. :cool:

The same with the discharge line, the "old way" has left the building, the "new way" allows for an impersonation of the "old way" in that it now requires an air gap before the discharge leaves the room the water heater is in. :)

(underlining and bold are mine)

JP:

An argument could easily be supported that an attic or a garage is not a "room". However, that is not what I was referring to. Also, if you will take the time to actually read my post, you will see that I did not disagree with you regarding the air gap, though I do disagree with the ICC's "thinking" that resulted in the wording there. What I was referring to is that the manufacturer's instructions regarding the discharge tube length, bends, etc. remains with us.

Don't be so eager to jump on people until you at least take the time to actually read and think about what they say. Especially not me.;)

If you reply to this with one of your typical Tolstoyian mainfestos, you'll have to wait until this evening for a reply. I have two inspections in a deluge today and time is short.

Aaron

[Brian Thomas]

JP:

An argument could easily be supported that an attic or a garage is not a "room". However, that is not what I was referring to. Also, if you will take the time to actually read my post, you will see that I did not disagree with you regarding the air gap, though I do disagree with the ICC's "thinking" that resulted in the wording there. What I was referring to is that the manufacturer's instructions regarding the discharge tube length, bends, etc. remains with us.

Don't be so eager to jump on people until you at least take the time to actually read and think about what they say. Especially not me.;)

If you reply to this with one of your typical Tolstoyian mainfestos, you'll have to wait until this evening for a reply. I have two inspections in a deluge today and time is short.

Aaron

Thats funny....tolstoy! :)

[Jerry Peck]

2006 IRC Commentary says:

"If a relief valve discharges to a drainage system, the discharge must be an indirect connection through an air gap to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system."


Discharging through an air gap I can only think this was added is to possibly cut down end of line pressure, maybe. Not quite sure what that is all about.

First, if discharging to the drainage system, it is for, as stated in the commentary, "to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system", and, if not connected to the drainage system but run to where there could, under any circumstance, be a similar contamination, the air gap is there for that. In fact, if you just dump it to the floor and leave the pipe 6" above the floor (as wanted by Watts to make sure there will be no pressure build-up), then you have created the air gap anyway.



Aaron said "not entirely"

"Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building."

And that is why I said "- the "new way" allows for an impersonation of the "old way" -"

[Jerry Peck]

An argument could easily be supported that an attic or a garage is not a "room".

One could, and they would then face the response that, if the attic, garage, crawlspace, etc. is not a "room", then those spaces will be considered as "outdoors" (they are considered "outdoors, not "indoors"), in which case one would only need to look at the listing and labeling for approval or rating for installation "outdoors" ... :) ... and they are not listed or labeled for installation "outdoors" :D .


However, that is not what I was referring to. Also, if you will take the time to actually read my post, you will see that I did not disagree with you regarding the air gap, though I do disagree with the ICC's "thinking" that resulted in the wording there. What I was referring to is that the manufacturer's instructions regarding the discharge tube length, bends, etc. remains with us.

Understood, and that is not what I was disagreeing with. The manufacturers' requirements and limitations "are in addition to" those in the code, thus, while the discharge line must be terminated in the same room as the water heater, if that is a very large room, then the manufacturer's limitation would apply. :cool:

[Bob Spermo]

I would like to know how under the new rules would you install a TPR drain on a water heater in an attic!

[Jim Luttrall]

Bob, I don't see anything that would preclude installation in the attic so long as you have the air gap visible and before the drain leaves the "room" or attic.
I don't know of any municipality that has adopted the latest version of the IRC yet, but we will see how the AHJ interprets it soon enough.

[Richard Stanley]

"5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area. "

I'm trying to picture a scenario that compies with the above when the unit is installed in an attic or garage. Picture please??

In the large majority of the country, water can freeze in an attic. Maybe not Hawaii or Key West. Actually, it can get pretty damned cold on top of those volcanoes.

[A.D. Miller]

One could, and they would then face the response that, if the attic, garage, crawlspace, etc. is not a "room", then those spaces will be considered as "outdoors" (they are considered "outdoors, not "indoors"), in which case one would only need to look at the listing and labeling for approval or rating for installation "outdoors" ... :) ... and they are not listed or labeled for installation "outdoors" :D .

This already occurs with many of the builders stating that, for one isolated example, the ducts for exhaust fans can be terminated in the attic space because it is "outside the building envelope". "Building envelope" being interpreted by them as the conditioned space of the house. Of course, they stop short of terminating gas appliance vents in the attic space, but have no valid explanation as to why, given their specious set of definitions. Like building officials with their perennial selective code enforcement habits, builders have a selective set of definitions to suit any occasion.

Understood, and that is not what I was disagreeing with. The manufacturers' requirements and limitations "are in addition to" those in the code, thus, while the discharge line must be terminated in the same room as the water heater, if that is a very large room, then the manufacturer's limitation would apply. :cool:

"In addition to" is a term here that I cannot agree with. If only by its position within the code itself I feel that the manufacturer's installation instructions, where they regard an appliance's listing, take precedence over the code:


"R102.4 Referenced codes and standards. The codes and
standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the
requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such
reference. Where differences occur between provisions of this
code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this
code shall apply.

Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would
violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or
appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer’s
instructions shall apply."

Now as to the ICC's unfortunate wording of this little gem, terminating the discharge tube in any space (room, if you will), in my opinion, is a mistake. Exterior termination is the only way to at least partially insure that:

"6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal

injury or structural damage."

Placement of the water heater in the attic, in a closet, or in any place where the homeowner is not likely to be observing on a regular basis seems to me to negate:


"7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable
by the building occupants."

But, I could write a very long book on the number of not only seeming but very real and blatant contradictions resident in any particular versions of the IRC. It only seems to get worse with every new version. I have yet to see the 2009 version, because I refuse to buy a hard copy, but it is likely even less integrous than the 2006 model . . .

As usual, it's always a pleasure to trade words with you JP,

Aaron

[Jerry Peck]

Exception:

Where enforcement of a code provision would

violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or
appliance,


Aaron,

Therein lies the catch.

Doing what the manufacturers "allows" and what the code "requires".

In this case, the manufacturer "allows" certain things, while the code "requires" certain other things.

Example: If the manufacturer "allows" the discharge line to be up to 30 feet long with no more than 4 elbows, those requirements are not "violated" by a code requiring the discharge line to be 3 feet long, with one elbow (I know, that is not what the code requires, I am just giving an example). In this case, installing to code *does not violate* the manufacturer's listing and labeling or its installation instructions.

[A.D. Miller]

[/left]


Aaron,

Therein lies the catch.

Doing what the manufacturers "allows" and what the code "requires".

In this case, the manufacturer "allows" certain things, while the code "requires" certain other things.

Example: If the manufacturer "allows" the discharge line to be up to 30 feet long with no more than 4 elbows, those requirements are not "violated" by a code requiring the discharge line to be 3 feet long, with one elbow (I know, that is not what the code requires, I am just giving an example). In this case, installing to code *does not violate* the manufacturer's listing and labeling or its installation instructions.
[/left]

JP:
No one is arguing that, in this particular instance, installing to code violates the manufacturer's installation instructions. So then, why are we discussing it?:confused:

Aaron

[Jerry Peck]

JP:
No one is arguing that, in this particular instance, installing to code violates the manufacturer's installation instructions. So then, why are we discussing it?:confused:

Aaron


Because I thought that was the reason you posted the code reference you did ... that it was violating the MII to install to code ...

Besides, the code says "Water heaters shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements of this code."

[A.D. Miller]

Because I thought that was the reason you posted the code reference you did ... that it was violating the MII to install to code ...

Besides, the code says "Water heaters shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements of this code."

JP:

But, in fact, the reason for my post was not to make any such point. It was merely to state that not all of the "old way", as you say, was done away with in the "new way" of doing TPR drain line things. That's all, I swear it.

Jeez! I'm glad you are just a mere Peck. A Bushel of that stuff would be just too much!

Aaron:D

[Bernardo Golner]

Brian,
I'm happy I missed all this enriched knowledge exchange, because the thanksgiving weekend with family, I got lost in the arguments and honesty I don't recall (may because ignorance) any water heaters TPRs in those classic russian novels. Sorry, never imagined the codes linked to a Tolstoy's manifesto (is there any?)
Almost sure you got your answer, anyway taking this inspection as my own, I would modesty report that this piping is not meeting code (any known by me) and also is not meeting manufacturers directions (any known by me).
Between us "common sense", perhaps from the Tolstoy's "scientific positivism" , flow blocked because so many elbows, no "visible" discharge are basic enough to report to homeowner, suggest to get a well known local "licensed, bonded and insured" contractor to re route the piping, meeting both common requirements code an manufacturer directions, if this is an existing house should be some code exceptions to easy the way.
Regards.
Bernardo

[A.D. Miller]

"Tolstoy's "scientific positivism""

Excellent!

Aaron:p

[Dana Bostick]

For the left coast guys and gals:
CPC-2007- 608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper piping and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to The outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152mm) above the ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building’s crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.

(I underlined the new section per the 2007 California Plumbing Code.)

I've been following this Code for many years. Nothing new here. The only option is to use a Watts 210 to shut off the gas. Never found a good solution in this case for electric though.
Dana "on the left coast"

[Manzoor Husain]

This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
Can someone explain to me what this could be.
Thanks

[Dana Bostick]

This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
Can someone explain to me what this could be.
Thanks

To flush the spiders out of the line??;)

[A.D. Miller]

To flush the spiders out of the line??;)

Dana:

Regarding your signature concerning political correctness:

Ruth Perry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Perry) traces the term back to Mao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao)'s Little Red Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Book). According to Perry, the term was later adopted by the radical left in the 1960s, initially seriously and later ironically, as a self-criticism of dogmatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) attitudes. In the 1990s, because of the term's association with radical politics and communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist) censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_censorship), it was used by the political right in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) to try to discredit the Old and New Left.

Aaron

[Jerry Peck]

Dana:

Regarding your signature concerning political correctness:

Ruth Perry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Perry) traces the term back to Mao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao)'s Little Red Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Book). According to Perry, the term was later adopted by the radical left in the 1960s, initially seriously and later ironically, as a self-criticism of dogmatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) attitudes. In the 1990s, because of the term's association with radical politics and communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist) censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_censorship), it was used by the political right in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) to try to discredit the Old and New Left.

Aaron

Aaron,

You are, of course, referring to this:

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an mainstream media,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

You, I and others know that there is a center, a left, and a right, and the center is really just the right of the left and the left of the right, so, there really is just a left and a right, all boiling down to the fact that, while the left delude themselves into thinking the turd has a clean end which they can use to pick it up by, the right deludes themselves into thinking the entire turd is not dirty to start with, thus, they put it on their plates and pass it around the table, realizing that there is no difference between ingesting a turd and expelling diarrhea of the mouth.

[A.D. Miller]

Aaron,

the right deludes themselves into thinking the entire turd is not dirty to start with, thus, they put it on their plates and pass it around the table, realizing that there is no difference between ingesting a turd and expelling diarrhea of the mouth.

JP:

Very well said.

Aaron

[Dana Bostick]

WOAH! did this thread take a left turn or what?
LOL, Dana

[A.D. Miller]

WOAH! did this thread take a left turn or what?
LOL, Dana

Dana:

Right you are.

Aaron

[brian schmitt]

jerry,
well said my steaming colleague.

[Manzoor Husain]

Re: TPR extension
This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
Can someone explain to me what this could be.
Thanks

Any other ideas

[A.D. Miller]

Re: TPR extension
This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
Can someone explain to me what this could be.
Thanks

Any other ideas

Other than just plain wrong, I can't think of another description. Where did the tubing terminate?

Aaron

[John Arnold]

Re: TPR extension
This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
Can someone explain to me what this could be.
Thanks

Any other ideas

Manzoor - That sounds very bizarre. I have no explanation. It's wrong, of course.

On a probably unrelated note, if you would go to the UserCP in the upper left and fill in your location (Town/City, State/Country, etc.), it could be helpful in responding to your questions.

[Jerry Peck]

As with John and Aaron, I have no idea what the concept was behind what they thought they were doing ... but agree that it is wrong, plain wrong, and it needs to be removed and the T&P line replaced.

My 'stranger than fiction' thought on what it might be was (but, why would anyone do this or think this is beyond me) that was a 'flushing line' connected to the cold water inlet to allow cold water to 'flush out' the T&P line, or, even stranger than that, the line was a 'bleed line' to bleed some of the discharging water back to the cold water side - now that is bazaar. Told you it was stranger than fiction.

[Jim Luttrall]

Maybe a rigged bleed line to allow the "winterizing" of the water lines?
No matter what it is though, it is not allowed under any circumstances.

[A.D. Miller]

My 'stranger than fiction' thought on what it might be was (but, why would anyone do this or think this is beyond me) that was a 'flushing line' connected to the cold water inlet to allow cold water to 'flush out' the T&P line, or, even stranger than that, the line was a 'bleed line' to bleed some of the discharging water back to the cold water side - now that is bazaar. Told you it was stranger than fiction.

JP: Could be run to the master suite's bidet or the kitchen vegetable sprayer as a warning to the occupant that the TPR has acctuated.:D

[Mike Schulz]

What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?

Around here the Water heater is in a pan. The TP is a couple of inches above the pan. The pan drains to the exterior.

I have seen a few new homes lately that the wh is in the crawl space. At the foundation wall the tp line stops over a funnel that is terminated to the exterior. Thought that was a little extreme. Why you can't plumb straight out the foundation I have no clue...........

[Brian Thomas]

UPdate on the TPR extension...My client had the TPR extension looked at by a roto rooter plumber and he signed off on it as it being a solid setup that needed no changes. Apparantly the many 90 degree elbows and the length of the pipe and it being discharged into a sealed sump pump crock was satisfactory to him. Fine by me, as long as he signed off on it as being ok!

[Jerry Peck]

Fine by me, as long as he signed off on it as being ok!

Brian,

That plumber probably said "Nothing wrong with that, I install them like that all the time." :eek:

[Brian Thomas]

Brian,

That plumber probably said "Nothing wrong with that, I install them like that all the time." :eek:

probably does! At least i shouldnt have to worry about it coming back on me now :)

[Bruce Ramsey]

Todays inspection had me pause to think through this installation.

Electric water heater installed in crawlspace next to foundation wall. TPR either does not have a discharge pipe or it is less than 1 inch in length. TPR discharges directly into 1.5 inch PVC pipe that passes through foundation wall to the exterior.

The TPR actually discharges into the elbow so if it ever discharges it will probably splash more out than will flow down the pipe. The water will end up in the crawlspace.

There is an air gap between the TPR and PVC pipe and the pipe exits to the exterior. Waddya think? Reportable defect?

[brian schmitt]

it's wrong. cut off the pvc 90 and use whats left for a sleeve for extending a compliant line.

[Wayne Carlisle]

Compliant? How does PVC comply for hot water and protection from UV rays on the exterior of the structure?

[Jerry Peck]

TPR discharges directly into 1.5 inch PVC pipe that passes through foundation wall to the exterior.

There is an air gap between the TPR and PVC pipe and the pipe exits to the exterior. Waddya think? Reportable defect?


First, yes, write it up - PVC cannot be used for ... er ... okay it "CAN BE" used for that because you have a photo of it, so I will re-phrase ... PVC *is not allowed to be* used for that use, it will soften and melt.

Second, there is no "air gap", that is an "air break", except that it is not even and "air break" - that's the closest thing I can think of that it is too ... wait a minute ... just thought of something closer ... that is - "All wrong!" ;)

[Mike Schulz]

It's required now to have a air gap and piped to the exterior in our area now. The way I see it they run the 3/4 over to the foundation wall and then have the PVC plumbed to the exterior at the wall. The 3/4 dumps into a funnel type fitting on the top of the PVC (don't know the name of it). I talked to a plumber buddy and he is calling the head AHJ about the PVC because it is not rated but allowed.

[Vern Heiler]

It's required now to have a air gap and piped to the exterior in our area now. The way I see it they run the 3/4 over to the foundation wall and then have the PVC plumbed to the exterior at the wall. The 3/4 dumps into a funnel type fitting on the top of the PVC (don't know the name of it). I talked to a plumber buddy and he is calling the head AHJ about the PVC because it is not rated but allowed.


Mike, I ran into one of those about 18 mos. ago. No way I can find the picture though. Old plumber had been to a seminar or plumbing update course and was told about the requirement for an "air-gap". He installed a 3/4 to 1" adapter in the T&P extension about 12" from the top of the tank, similar to the one pictured at the beginning of this thread. The water heater was in the crawlspace, and the drain line was plumbed to the exterior, as he was told it should be.

I checked with a friend, who is also a local AHJ, who said it was totally wrong. The intent was to have an air-gap at the bottom of the T&P extension, just like when it is above an overflow pan. I did not inquire about the use of PVC and don't remember if that is what was used. If the T&P extension is of an approved material and extends to within 6" of the floor or ground, then I don't see why PVC could not be used to drain it the rest of the way to the exterior as it would now be a drain or waste line and not under pressure.

I wrote it up and never heard a word about it.. I did see that it was corrected during a repair verification I did several weeks latter.

[Jerry Peck]

I don't see why PVC could not be used to drain it the rest of the way to the exterior as it would now be a drain or waste line and not under pressure.


First and foremost, PVC is not approved for that temperature range.

Secondly (first and foremost to some) is that it is not one of the approved piping materials for use as a T&P discharge line (which are the same as for distribution piping, and PVC is not approved for that either).

[Vern Heiler]

First and foremost, PVC is not approved for that temperature range.

Secondly (first and foremost to some) is that it is not one of the approved piping materials for use as a T&P discharge line (which are the same as for distribution piping, and PVC is not approved for that either).

I was not suggesting using PVC for the T&P extension (the pipe going down from the T&P valve) but only saying I don't see a problem with using PVC from the overflow pan or funnel device to the exterior of the foundation.

[Jerry Peck]

but only saying I don't see a problem with using PVC from the overflow pan or funnel device to the exterior of the foundation.


That's the part I was talking about too.

Not allowed and not approved, for the reasons I gave.

Think about it, is that 210 degree water going to magically reduce far enough in temperature to as to not affect the PVC in that short T&P discharge pipe?

Besides it not being an air gap.

And besides the end of the PVC not being supported and it would blow downward, then soften and droop away.

And besides not being rated for ...

[Vern Heiler]

The drain line from the overflow pans that I see installed in attics are almost always PVC. I must admit that I never really thought about it as a problem.

[Jerry Peck]

The drain line from the overflow pans that I see installed in attics are almost always PVC. I must admit that I never really thought about it as a problem.


Not supposed to be PVC.

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)
(This chapter is water heaters.)
- P2801.5.1 Pan size and drain.The pan shall be not less than 11/2 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 3/4 inch (19 mm). Piping for safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Table P2904.5.

- TABLE P2904.5

- - WATER DISTRIBUTION PIPE

[Vern Heiler]

NC 2006 Plumbing Code says its OK! I don't have the ability to copy & Paste the code (as I'm too cheap to buy it on disk) but looking at the code on-line it says the drain line from the pan will be from Table 605.4 which is the supply and Table 702.1 which is the DWV. PVC is in there!

[Jerry Peck]

NC 2006 Plumbing Code says its OK! I don't have the ability to copy & Paste the code (as I'm too cheap to buy it on disk) but looking at the code on-line it says the drain line from the pan will be from Table 605.4 which is the supply and Table 702.1 which is the DWV. PVC is in there!

Vern,

Your post really confused me (which is not hard to do), here is why:

You said: "NC 2006 Plumbing Code says its OK! ... looking at the code on-line it says the drain line from the pan will be from Table 605.4 ... [/quote]

That's what the IPC says also.

Then you added " ... which is the supply ... "

Correct. The water heater drain pan is to be of material listed in Table 605.4, which is piping suitable for distribution (supply) piping (which means suitable for pressure and for both hot and cold).

Then you added " ... and Table 702.1 which is the DWV.", which is DWV, but the reference comes from where? You stated "PVC is in there!", yes, PVC is a drain material, just not a drain material for a water heater drain pan.

The following is from the 2006 IPC, does the NC IPC read like this:

- 504.7.1 Pan size and drain. The pan shall be not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 0.75 inch (19 mm). Piping for safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Table 605.4.

There's that same reference to Table 605.4, distribution piping.

Do you have a link to the on-line code you are referencing? I suspect you will see that PVC is not in the table referenced for that drain line.

[Vern Heiler]

504.6.2 Materials. Relief valve discharge piping shall be of......

then (Piping from safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Tables 605.4 and 702.1.)

Table 702.1 has PVC listed.

I am not that good of a typist so I only xposed what is relevant.

[Vern Heiler]

2006 North Carolina Plumbing Code (http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/2006NorthCarolina/plumbing/plumbing_Frameset.html)

Try this link.

[Jerry Peck]

2006 North Carolina Plumbing Code (http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/2006NorthCarolina/plumbing/plumbing_Frameset.html)

Try this link.

Thanks, no IRC?

The NC PC:
- 504.7.1 Pan size and drain. The pan shall be not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 1 inch (25 mm).

That wording is from the 2003 IPC, which does not have the requirement for what material to use.

The reason why that requirement was added to the IPC and IRC was exactly because you are finding what you are finding - PVC used for that drain line which is used for HOT WATER, and the piping itself is not rated for use with HOT WATER.

Thus, to make sure that those AHJ understand that *the properly rated material was supposed to be used*, whether it was spelled out or not, *it is now spelled out in the code*.

However, here is one key (in the NC PC) to help you address that problem with a code without the 2006 wording:
- 701.7 Connections. Direct connection of steam exhaust, blowoff or drip pipe shall not be made with the building drainage system. Wastewater when discharged into the building drainage system shall be at a temperature not higher than 140 degree F (60 degrees C). When higher temperatures exist, approved cooling methods shall be provided.

[Vern Heiler]

Did the link work?

If it does, look at page 33, Code 504.6.2. Materials.

Go to the end of the paragraph where it says. "Piping from safety drains shall ve of those materials listed in Tables 605.4 and 702.1"

[Jerry Peck]

Did the link work?

If it does, look at page 33, Code 504.6.2. Materials.

Go to the end of the paragraph where it says. "Piping from safety drains shall ve of those materials listed in Tables 605.4 and 702.1"


The link worked, but I missed that section.

However, that section shows that the safety pan drain is not allowed to be PVC.

You even so state in your post, here is why:

Go to the end of the paragraph where it says. "Piping from safety drains shall ve of those materials listed in Tables 605.4 and 702.1"

That states that the drain pan material shall be listed in table wxy AND table abc, and PVC *is not* listed in both tables.

Combine that with the references I provided out of the NC PC and you will see, should see, that PVC is not allowed for that drain pan drain line.

The newer wording in the 2006 IPC and IRC resolve that conflict.

[Vern Heiler]

Just spoke with the Assistant Chief Plumbing Inspector in Mecklenburg Co. Two mis-prints have been corrected in the 2009 code section 504.6.2. Table 605.5 was a ref. to fittings and has now been corrected to table 605.3 water service pipe. The last sentence has been changed from Tables 605.4 and 702.1 to Tables 605.4 or 702.1.

PVC is allowed in NC.

The reasoning given that PVC is acceptable, was to compare it to the PVC drains at kitchen sinks. How much hotter can water be than straining off boiling pasta?

[Jerry Peck]

Just spoke with the Assistant Chief Plumbing Inspector in Mecklenburg Co. Two mis-prints have been corrected in the 2009 code section 504.6.2. Table 605.5 was a ref. to fittings and has now been corrected to table 605.3 water service pipe. The last sentence has been changed from Tables 605.4 and 702.1 to Tables 605.4 or 702.1.

PVC is allowed in NC.

Then go for it.


The reasoning given that PVC is acceptable, was to compare it to the PVC drains at kitchen sinks. How much hotter can water be than straining off boiling pasta?

A lot.

When the T&P goes under emergency conditions it would well be at 210 degrees F. At full force, for a while as it cools down with the cold water drawn into the water heater.

The amount of water from the boiling pasta is limited (very limited) and by the time it gets through the sink and into the drain it is cooled considerably. Mix that cooled water with water already in the trap and it is even cooler. Mix that water with water from the faucet (I've always seen the water running when pasta is drained) and you are mixing maybe 130 degree water with it.

The simple answer is that the water from draining boiling pasta is VERY LIMITED in amount and duration as compared to the amount of VERY HOT water from a water heater.

Sounds to me like someone came up with a stretch of an argument to try to justify allowing PVC for those drains while others across the country do not allow PVC for those drains, and the NC PC code does not even allow for that in its limitation on temperature being discharged into the drain system. I think you need to ask that guy about the drain temperature limitation ... maybe he will get that removed too? :)

[Vern Heiler]

Then go for it.

Sounds to me like someone came up with a stretch of an argument to try to justify allowing PVC for those drains while others across the country do not allow PVC for those drains, and the NC PC code does not even allow for that in its limitation on temperature being discharged into the drain system. I think you need to ask that guy about the drain temperature limitation ... maybe he will get that removed too? :)

The Assistant Chief Inspector did not write the code, I am not going to try to change the code, and all of my NC colleages need to know that it is allowed in NC.

It would be interesting to know if HI's in other parts of the country see PVC from the safety drain pan?

[brian schmitt]

Compliant? How does PVC comply for hot water and protection from UV rays on the exterior of the structure?
wayne,
i wiilll taalllkkk slloowweer fooorrr yyyooouuu. usssee theee pppvvvcc fooorrr aaa ssslllleevvvee for a compliant material such as copper,cpvc,galvanize,etc..:D

[Wayne Carlisle]

That was harder to read than the 1st post! :eek: :D

[Vern Heiler]

wayne,
i wiilll taalllkkk slloowweer fooorrr yyyooouuu. usssee theee pppvvvcc fooorrr aaa ssslllleevvvee for a compliant material such as copper,cpvc,galvanize,etc..:D

Jerry, could you give us the meaning of "compliant"?

[Ted Menelly]

The drain pan for the water heater is meant to drain water froma lewak that may occur and the water would be trickling. If the tank were to outright rupture then it would over flow the pan anyway. To try to blow off the TPR valve into the drain pan is foolish. Practically none will stay kin and then drain down the drain line. Most will blow down, hit the pan with a bib force and slash, we, be blown out of the pan.

I think it is a dumb idea to discharge the TPR to a drain pan. For a slight trickling leak from a leaking water heater I don't see the pipe being over heated as the water will cool trickling out and into the pan making its way to the drain line.

I see drain pans being drained by PVC all the time. Many have started to change to copper. Most attics they are not taking the chance and usually use copper. The garage would be a different story.

I do right them up. But being just a drain from the trickling leak in a water heater I cannot see it being an issue. Blowing the TPR valve into the drain pan is just simply dumb.

Again if the water heater ruptures that pan is not doing a darn thing anyway.

[Mike Schulz]

This is new and past by the ahj

[brian schmitt]

The drain pan for the water heater is meant to drain water froma lewak that may occur and the water would be trickling. If the tank were to outright rupture then it would over flow the pan anyway. To try to blow off the TPR valve into the drain pan is foolish. Practically none will stay kin and then drain down the drain line. Most will blow down, hit the pan with a bib force and slash, we, be blown out of the pan.

I think it is a dumb idea to discharge the TPR to a drain pan. For a slight trickling leak from a leaking water heater I don't see the pipe being over heated as the water will cool trickling out and into the pan making its way to the drain line.

I see drain pans being drained by PVC all the time. Many have started to change to copper. Most attics they are not taking the chance and usually use copper. The garage would be a different story.

I do right them up. But being just a drain from the trickling leak in a water heater I cannot see it being an issue. Blowing the TPR valve into the drain pan is just simply dumb.

Again if the water heater ruptures that pan is not doing a darn thing anyway.
i'm in total agreement here ted. calif plumbing code does not allow the tpr drain to go to the pan for the reasons you mentioned. pvc for the pan drain only is the norm here as the code does not specify the type of material for the drain.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, could you give us the meaning of "compliant"?


"Compliant"

To comply with

To be in compliance with

To conform to the minimum requirements of

To meet the minimum requirements of

[Vern Heiler]

"Compliant"

To comply with

To be in compliance with

To conform to the minimum requirements of

To meet the minimum requirements of

Like as in "2006 North Carolina Plumbing Code" ?

[Jerry Peck]

Like as in "2006 North Carolina Plumbing Code" ?


With that wording change from "and" to "or", yep.

Just don't confuse "compliant" with "common sense" or "doing things right". :)

[Richard Stanley]

When I test those, I don't see what I call a great deal of force to the flow.
I have never seen one 'blow" due to excessive pressure. Anybody have any info / video of that. Even if it is alot, it would only be temporary. I don't see much difference in terminating the tp drain pipe at the pan and that 'approved and past' configuration posted by Mike Shulz.- similar amount of potential damage.

[Ted Menelly]

When I test those, I don't see what I call a great deal of force to the flow.
I have never seen one 'blow" due to excessive pressure. Anybody have any info / video of that. Even if it is alot, it would only be temporary. I don't see much difference in terminating the tp drain pipe at the pan and that 'approved and past' configuration posted by Mike Shulz.- similar amount of potential damage.


Well. When you release it it is just water pressure. When the tank blows from a bad valve not opening it blows thru the roof and lands a block away. That is a serious difference. You are dealing with a water heater that has built up to 3 times the water pressure and if the valve is slightly faulty but not bad enough to blow the tank it could be a serious amount of water pressure behind it with almost super heated water.

Just type in. images of water heaters blowing up in a search

Just at releasing at the designed pressure and or temp it will blow out of the end of the pipe hard enough to blow right out of the pan. God forbid you were standing next to it with the water blowing into the pan and up into your face. I can see you in the emergency room now. That would be like your wife throwing boiling water in your face with 150 pounds pressure behind it.

[Jerry Peck]

A short clip of the Watts video is here ( Explosion - Danger Lurks! (http://www.watts.com/pro/flash/videos/explosionlurks.asp) ), you can order a free DVD here ( Learn About - Danger Scalding Lurks! Free DVD, hot water scald, safety mixing valve (http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/learnabout/learnabout_dvdorderform.asp) )

[Jerry Peck]

I've uploaded the video, you can view it here: AskCodeMan.com (http://askcodeman.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=51)

[Vern Heiler]

This is new and past by the ahj

I am discouraged to see that the new code has relaxed the safety against hot water splash to this extent. But the code now only has a minimum distance from the ground or waste receptor. No maximum distance to the receptor. So by code the funnel could be at the ground and no pipe installed on the T&P valve. REALLY BAD CODE WRITTING in my opinoin.

[Jake Guerrero]

When I test those, I don't see what I call a great deal of force to the flow.
I have never seen one 'blow" due to excessive pressure. Anybody have any info / video of that. Even if it is alot, it would only be temporary. I don't see much difference in terminating the tp drain pipe at the pan and that 'approved and past' configuration posted by Mike Shulz.- similar amount of potential damage.


Rick H. had a picture of one blowing at the outlet end... It was a brick house I think. Since Rick is a nice guy, he may dig it out for you. :)

[Richard Stanley]

Nice video and a good addition to the askcodeman site.
I am familiar with the explosive factor.
The part I was particularly interested in was the demo of the amount of water / steam / force that was emitted from the TPRV drain pipe when it was activated by pressure - temperature.
They were calling them HOT water heaters. Shame!
Thanks for that and all you do Jerry.

[Jake Guerrero]

Here is the thread / pic I was referring to:

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/6147-almost-got-me.html

[Jerry Peck]

I am discouraged to see that the new code has relaxed the safety against hot water splash to this extent. But the code now only has a minimum distance from the ground or waste receptor. No maximum distance to the receptor. So by code the funnel could be at the ground and no pipe installed on the T&P valve. REALLY BAD CODE WRITTING in my opinoin.

Huh?

Read 504.6.1 Discharge in that link you provided. ;)

First sentence. :cool: Underlining is NOT mine, it is in that code. It indicates a change.

504.6.1 Discharge. (that's the section title)
(first sentence) The relief valve shall discharge full size to a safe place of disposal such as within 6 inches (152 mm) of the floor, outside the building or indirect waste receptor.

In the IPC, the entire section is written differently, but that 6" maximum is still in there: (underlining is mine)

- 504.6 Requirements for discharge piping.The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall:
- - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.

[Vern Heiler]

Huh?

Read 504.6.1 Discharge in that link you provided. ;)

First sentence. :cool: Underlining is NOT mine, it is in that code. It indicates a change.

504.6.1 Discharge. (that's the section title)
(first sentence) The relief valve shall discharge full size to a safe place of disposal such as within 6 inches (152 mm) of the floor, outside the building or indirect waste receptor.

In the IPC, the entire section is written differently, but that 6" maximum is still in there: (underlining is mine)

- 504.6 Requirements for discharge piping.The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall:
- - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.

Jerry, I thought the same thing, but after sending the picture in Mike's post to the same AHJ I called about the pan drain line material, he responded with

"This one would be approved by code- the code establishes the minimum air gap- but no maximums...thanks"

I expressed my concern to him as well! But I doubt it will change the writing or the interpretation by AHJ's here in NC.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, I thought the same thing, but after sending the picture in Mike's post to the same AHJ I called about the pan drain line material, he responded with

"This one would be approved by code- the code establishes the minimum air gap- but no maximums...thanks"



I expressed my concern to him as well! But I doubt it will change the writing or the interpretation by AHJ's here in NC.


Vern,

That's where you have to know what to ask next, because, like many things, it depends on how you ask or on what the responder is thinking about or just thought about.

If you mentioned "air gap", he is correct. There are "minimum" "air gap" requirements.

However, regarding the water heater T&P relief valve discharge line, there is ALSO (yes, the minimum air gap does apply) a maximum height distance.

I'm guessing that is you send that back to him and ask him if that photo meets: 1) the minimum air gap requirement; and 2) the maximum height above the floor/receptor requirement in this "504.6.1 Discharge. The relief valve shall discharge full size to a safe place of disposal such as within 6 inches (152 mm) of the floor, outside the building or indirect waste receptor.", AND include that reference from the NC PC, ... I'm guessing you will get an entirely different answer.

I'm guessing you will get a 'While that does meet the minimum air gap requirements, no, that does not meet the maximum height limitation above the floor/receptor.'

That same person you talked to may even say 'Oh, right, I FORGOT ABOUT THAT SECTION, but you are correct, it DOES NOT meet that section.'

You do not have enough persistence in asking question, you ask incorrect answer way to easily. :) You think the AHJ never makes mistakes? You know better than that. :D

[Vern Heiler]

I did not ask him anything about the air gap requirement. What I did was send him the picture from Mike's post and asked if the pictured T&P system was code compliant. As Mike said it was passed by the AHJ in his area, I must assume that they are all interpreting the code the same way.

[Jerry Peck]

I did not ask him anything about the air gap requirement. What I did was send him the picture from Mike's post and asked if the pictured T&P system was code compliant.

Which gets back to what I said:


That's where you have to know what to ask next, because, like many things, it depends on how you ask or on what the responder is thinking about or just thought about.

I'm guessing that is you send that back to him and ask him if that photo meets: 1) the minimum air gap requirement; and 2) the maximum height above the floor/receptor requirement in this "504.6.1 Discharge. The relief valve shall discharge full size to a safe place of disposal such as within 6 inches (152 mm) of the floor, outside the building or indirect waste receptor.", AND include that reference from the NC PC, ... I'm guessing you will get an entirely different answer.

I'm guessing you will get a 'While that does meet the minimum air gap requirements, no, that does not meet the maximum height limitation above the floor/receptor.'

That same person you talked to may even say 'Oh, right, I FORGOT ABOUT THAT SECTION, but you are correct, it DOES NOT meet that section.'


If you get back to that person, provide them with that code section, provide them with the photo, it then gives them the opportunity - which is what needs to be done when asking questions, is to give the person the opportunity to address what it really is that you are asking - give them the opportunity to address that from the code reference you are asking about.

Simply asking is that compliant allows for a quick glance and, yeah, that looks okay, without really having to stop and think about if it is compliant or not.

In this case, that in not compliant as the height above the receptor exceeds 6 inches.

When discussing codes and requirements, you must first get the persons attention, as I said in my other post "or on what the responder is thinking about or just thought about.", he may well have just been addressing air gaps with some, thus, his first thought was 'yeah, that meets the air gap requirements'.

Your question, your call. If you are satisfied with a less than fully correct answer, accept it.

[Vern Heiler]

I have sent a copy of post #100 to the AHJ along with the concerns. I'll let you know what the response is.

[Vern Heiler]

Well here is the response:



"I was incorrect, it should be within 6" of the receptor; we have had so many w/heater change-outs,(w/out permits-and that was illegal after July 2003, all w/heaters must be permited and inspected) I would wonder had this really been inspected by a Code Inspector- the 6" is just a safe guard for splashing, but it does not have to be to the floor dimension, it could as you see from the top of the waste receptor, and it can be at any height."

This is what I first thought but was discouraged by Mike's post stating it had been passed by AHJ. Then the first response from local AHJ. My faith is somewhat restored!

I hope Mike sees this post and that I have not mis-lead anyone.

[Jerry Peck]

Vern,

I must say, that is some quick response time from your AHJ.

That is great.

[Mike Schulz]

Here is todays, at least it's in the receptor

[Jerry Peck]

Here is todays, at least it's in the receptor


Except that it is not allowed to be "in" the receptor. There needs to be at least a 1-1/2" air gap between the bottom of the discharge pipe and the top of the receptor.

[Mike Schulz]

Thanks Jerry,
I'm still working on the report, where do I find that it needs to be 1-1/2" at...........

[Jerry Peck]

Thanks Jerry,
I'm still working on the report, where do I find that it needs to be 1-1/2" at...........


From the 2006 IRC.

- First, the requirement for an air gap: (underlining is mine)

- - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:


- - - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
- - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
- - - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.
- - - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
- - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
- - - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
- - - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
- - - 8. Not be trapped.
- - - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
- - - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
- - - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
- - - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
- - - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section
P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for
such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

Now for the size of the air gap.

- Table P2902.3.1
- - Minimum Air Gaps
- - - Sink, laundry trays, gooseneck back faucets and other fixtures with effective openings not greater than 3/4 inch in diameter
- - - - Away from a walla - 1.5 inches
- - - - Close to a walla - 2.5 inches
- - - - - notea for distance to wall: a. Applicable where walls or obstructions are spaced from the nearest inside edge of the spout opening a distance greater than three times the diameter of the effective opening for a single wall, or a distance greater than four times the diameter of the effective opening for two intersecting walls.

[Mike Schulz]

Table P2902.3.1
- - Minimum Air Gaps
- - - Sink, laundry trays, gooseneck back faucets and other fixtures

Jerry correct me if I am wrong but that pertains to fixtures not discharge or drain pipes correct...........What part of that setup on the water heater discharge would be called a fixture. :)

[Vern Heiler]

Mike, go to this link:

2006 North Carolina Plumbing Code (http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/2006NorthCarolina/plumbing/plumbing_Frameset.html)

Sec, 802.2.1 gives the requirement of the air gap.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry correct me if I am wrong but that pertains to fixtures not discharge or drain pipes correct...........What part of that setup on the water heater discharge would be called a fixture. :)


Here: :D (see underlining), however, it is also stated with bold (the rule of thumb - and what I've seen in every code so far - is the air gap much be twice the diameter of the outlet discharge size)
- P2902.3 Backflow protection.


A means of protection against backflow shall be provided in accordance with Sections P2902.3.1 through P2902.3.6. Backflow prevention applications shall conform to Table P2902.3, except as specifically stated in Sections P2902.4 through P2902.5.5.
- - P2902.3.1 Air gaps.Air gaps shall comply with ASME A112.1.2 and air gap fittings shall comply with ASME A112.1.3. The minimum air gap shall be measured vertically from the lowest end of a water supply outlet to the flood level rim of the fixture or receptor into which such potable water outlets discharge. The minimum required air gap shall be twice the diameter of the effective opening of the outlet, but in no case less than the values specified in Table P2902.3.1. An air gap is required at the discharge point of a relief valve or piping. Air gap devices shall be incorporated in dishwashing and clothes washing appliances.

Oh, and here too ... :D ... by definition.

- PLUMBING FIXTURE.A receptor or device that requires both a water-supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system, such as water closets, lavatories, bathtubs and sinks. Plumbing appliances as a special class of fixture are further defined.

[Mike Schulz]

Thanks Guy's..........:)

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Mike,

Difference between an Air Gap(drainage system) and an Air Break(drainage system) is one of your "issue" questions.


Jerry correct me if I am wrong but that pertains to fixtures not discharge or drain pipes correct...........What part of that setup on the water heater discharge would be called a fixture. :)


Mike, go to this link:

2006 North Carolina Plumbing Code (http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/2006NorthCarolina/plumbing/plumbing_Frameset.html)

Sec, 802.2.1 gives the requirement of the air gap.

Please review Chapter 2 Section 202 General Definitions (before doing so review Section 201).

Note the following:
AIR BREAK (Drainage System) (note use of term "flood level rim" and compare the difference between AIR BREAK and AIR GAP.
AIR GAP (Drainage System)
AIR GAP (Water Distribution System)
DISCHARGE PIPE
DRAIN
DRAINAGE FITTINGS
EMERGENCY FLOOR DRAIN (note exclusions)
EXISTING INSTALLATIONS
FAUCET
FIXTURE (see Plumbing Fixture)
FIXTURE BRANCH
FIXTURE FITTING - (Note - review all Supply fitting through and including Waste fitting).
FLOOD LEVEL RIM (note receptacle)
HOT WATER
INDIRECT WASTE PIPE
INDIRECT WASTE RECEPTOR (Note - that it is defined herein as a plumbing fixture and is underlined in its entirety)
PLUMBING
PLUMBING APPLIANCE (note arrow in margin and note use of the term plumbing fixture)
PLUMBING APPURTENANCE
PLUMBING FIXTURE
RIM
WATER HEATER
WATER OUTLET
WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM
WASTE
WASTE PIPE

Make special note as to the difference between what an AIR GAP (drainage) is versus an AIR BREAK.

Then as you review ALL of chapter 5 paying special attention to underlined areas keep those definitions in mind unless further clarified and defined in that chapter as well as chapter 8.

Keep in mind the differences between what is allowed for the discharge pipe (of the T&P), its (the discharge pipe of the T&P) POINT OF DISCHARGE (top of air gap) and what is allowed on the other (bottom) side of that required air gap - i.e. floor, indirect waste pipe, drainage system, outdoors, etc..

Expansion room for steam or near steam for heat release to atmosphere and unobstructed free flow if max pressure at max flow for discharge pipe outlet is one of the primary reasons for the air gap (rapid reduction of energy, release of heat Btu to air, release of pressure to equalize to air to slow expansion) in addition to the isolation from contamination.

The importance of the materials and unobstructed discharge and drainage considerations are not so much for the nuisance dribble discharge as much as they are for the emergent worst case situation. The T&P is supposed to be the last line of defense to a steam flash blast not the first. Ask yourself what is the worst case situation discharge (assuming the T&P is functioning properly, isn't scaled over, etc.) is what temperature and what pressure if all safety limits have failed or been exceeded in the design and characteristics of a closed or open system that requires that T&P to open and discharge effectively to prevent a steam flash/explosion. Remember steam flash occurs at different temperatures depending on the pressure.

803 Special Wastes
803.1 Wastewater temperature. Steam pipes shall not connect to any part of a drainage or plumbing system and water above 140 degrees F (60 degrees C) shall not be discharged into any part of a drainage system. Such pipes shall discharge into an indirect waste receptor connected to the drainage system.

I'm at a loss at how that PVC through the foundation wall to the ground complies with the Rodent proofing requirements or the spirt of the intent of Appendix H which is incorporated as a part of the code.

I believe if you first review Chapter 2 then re-review chapter 5 paying special attention to when specific terms (especially when a two or three word phrase which is defined) are used, and special attention to underlining and markings in the margins, and make yourself a diagram you will find the answers you seek applicable to your jurisdiction. The requirements for the materials for the discharge pipe from the T&P to its outlet/air gap then those on the receiving end of the airgap. I have made no review of NC adoptions, amenments, or the history of NC codes, only briefly scanned the aforementioned code link specifically the mentioned chapters and appendix.

Mike, that last series of photos and the sections 502.6 through 507.4 (entirely underlined) seem at first glance to be inter-related (and poorly written/broken up), review especially 502.7.4. Might be a photographic illusion but I do not see evidence of a proper pitch or slope to the horizontal to provide a natural drain even if there was a proper air gap. The difference of elevation seems to imply that crawl-space installation might have many other issues in addition to missing required defined air gap/safe outlet of the discharge pipe itself for the T&P (versus air gap). Among other things looks like an open invitation to snakes and rodents to enter the crawl space, and should there be minor flooding or a few inches of exterior water collection - an avenue to flood the crawl space - how many inches above grade is that horizontal?


I hope that helps.

[Jerry Peck]

803 Special Wastes
803.1 Wastewater temperature. Steam pipes shall not connect to any part of a drainage or plumbing system and water above 140 degrees F (60 degrees C) shall not be discharged into any part of a drainage system. Such pipes shall discharge into an indirect waste receptor connected to the drainage system.

As I posted above in Chapter 7, Sanitary Drainage:


However, here is one key (in the NC PC) to help you address that problem with a code without the 2006 wording:
- 701.7 Connections. Direct connection of steam exhaust, blowoff or drip pipe shall not be made with the building drainage system. Wastewater when discharged into the building drainage system shall be at a temperature not higher than 140 degree F (60 degrees C). When higher temperatures exist, approved cooling methods shall be provided.

[Mike Schulz]

H.G,

Thanks for the great break down and time you spent on your post. The exterior part of that PVC drain is only 3" above grade. It should be 6" The pipe was pitched to the exterior.

The material is wrong and I am still waiting for the reply about this from a friend who knows the Head AHJ.

Your right also about the vermin that can enter into the crawl. That is also one of the questions that will be asked.

Thanks again to all that replied for your help.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Mike,

You are welcome and good luck with your endeavors.