Electrical Boxes & Switches for finished basement

[shatan]

I want to finish my basement with drop ceiling and sheetrock on the walls with 2 X 4 studs. I want to have 14 recessed lights with 2 dimmer switches. I applied for the permits and was asked to answer the following questions from electrical

1) What type of boxes are you going to use for receptacles & switches?

2) What kind of wire & gauge? I may use 14 gauge

3) How may cables in each box?

4) Spacing between receptacles?

Please see my basement plan attached and help me with the answers to the above questions. Please also help me with the electrical connections for the basement plan attached.

If someone can help me with the electrical diagram, I would really appreciate. I plan to use connections from empty slots from fuse box in my garage.

[Richard Pultar]

For 1 and 2 go to the Depot and copy the label on the boxes for the descriptions
for #3 the box fill will be per the NEC
for #4 less than 12 ft.
the subcode is just busting your nuts , let the mayor's office know you don't appreciate being harassed. Just because you don't know what your doing doesn't give him the right to make you feel stupid.

Add a switched luminaire to the furnace space near the door and a gfi receptacle in that space

[Jeff Remas]

Word of advice is to use metal boxes where you plan on using dimmers. They will help with heat dissipation. Not required unless required by the dimmer you install.

[Jerry Peck]

the subcode is just busting your nuts , let the mayor's office know you don't appreciate being harassed. Just because you don't know what your doing doesn't give him the right to make you feel stupid.


Leave it to Richard P. to make such a comment, Richard does not think there is a need for codes anyway, much less to actually follow them.

I recommend you contact a local electrician and work out what he would charge to draw it out properly and lay it out properly, and another charge for his help should you need to call him for help.

While several of us here could design it and draw it for you, working with a local electrician has major advantages, and you can go to him for advice when the local building department has questions and comments you need to understand what they are asking for.

There are also other things to consider, such as emergency escape and rescue openings, combustion air for the furnace. I think you need more help on every aspect.

[Jeff Remas]

Also, looks like you are missing some receptacles based on what I can see which is not much.

Richard,
He did not complain about the inspection department and if those were the only questions that he was asked to answer then he is in pretty good shape. We would have required a lot more information than that whether a contractor or homeowner.

[Ron Bibler]

[quote=Jerry Peck;

I recommend you contact a local electrician and work out what he would charge to draw it out properly and lay it out properly, and another charge for his help should you need to call him for help.
.[/quote]

This will help your local economy...:D

Do you part.

Best

Ron

[shatan]

Thanks for the replies. I know that you asked me to go to local electrician and take help, but atleast can you prepare a diagram and send it to me. Also I am still waiting for answers for questions 1, 2, 3.

1) What type of boxes?

2) Type of wire & guage?

3) # of cables in the box

BTW I live in Edison Township, New Jersey

[Ron Bibler]

Thanks for the replies. I know that you asked me to go to local electrician and take help, but atleast can you prepare a diagram and send it to me. Also I am still waiting for answers for questions 1, 2, 3.

1) What type of boxes?

2) Type of wire & guage?

3) # of cables in the box

BTW I live in Edison Township, New Jersey

New Jersey. Well you will need a Union Guy for that then:D .

Just Messin with ya. L.O.L.

Contact a local sparky guy... thats going to be your best bet...

Best

Ron

[Richard Pultar]

what could he possibly buy that is not a listed component?
what he might mess up is box fill and a some workmanship issues that could not possibly be shown on a sketch.
It's a basic .. simple job. Asking how and how many final wiring connections are made and where is absurd. The field conditions will determine final installations.
If the rough inspection needs correction, so what .
A simple "all work to be done per UCC" is sufficient.
Demeaning a person who is willing to get a permit is just petty.

[shatan]

Mr Sparky is not located in NJ

[Richard Pultar]

I'm surprised he did not have to answer what color is the green ground wire?

[shatan]

Can you recommend me someone else other than Mr Sparky as they are not in NJ?

How much would one generally charge me for the drawing?

[Jim Luttrall]

"Sparky" is slang for electrician.

[shatan]

Any ideas on charges for drawing from local electrician? What other questions would the township ask for in general?

[Jeff Remas]

what could he possibly buy that is not a listed component?
what he might mess up is box fill and a some workmanship issues that could not possibly be shown on a sketch.
It's a basic .. simple job. Asking how and how many final wiring connections are made and where is absurd. The field conditions will determine final installations.
If the rough inspection needs correction, so what .
A simple "all work to be done per UCC" is sufficient.
Demeaning a person who is willing to get a permit is just petty.

You are so far off base and are likely completely clueless to the plan review process which saves tons of headaches down the road. It is a lot easier to pre-plan what you are going to do rather than have to tear out and rewire something because of your box fill, wrong wire, wrong load calc, etc.

I have been witness to these situations and they are not fun or pretty. Professionals should know better but they don't always. DIYs are for the most part clueless once you get past what they learned by watching TV.

As a matter of fact, the last 3 overhead electrical services with panels (all DIY jobs) that I inspected all failed, one miserably which ended up costing the guy more than he would have spent had he hired a pro. 2 of the 3 made the same statement to me: "the guy at Home Depot told me........."

Looks like you will have your opinion and I will have mine which is consistent with code requirements and required procedures.

The 3 DIY that failed never pulled a permit and only called for an inspection because the power company refused to hook up the new service without an inspection. Had they pulled a permit and went through the motions they would have not failed because everything would have been reviewed properly.

There is always one guy on every forum that is a detractor.

[Jeff Remas]

Shatan,
Get an electrician to help you review what needs to be done and prepare documentation. The mere fact that you are here asking basic questions tells me you need help. You may be able to do the wiring yourself but the preparation is key.

Box sizes will depend almost entirely on the number of conductors that will be in them along with the number of devices. Without a cable pull diagram showing how you plan on wiring the fixtures, there is no way to tell what you will need.

The cost of an electrician will be minimal compared to what you will save by doing the work yourself. The code official cannot design anything for you but will give you code references if you fail an inspection.

If you feel the need to finish your basement then you can afford to hire a professional to get you to where you need to be.

[Ron Bibler]

We are not being hard on you... please understand. I have a lot on info one home system and I just paid sparky to put a new service in my home. they do it every day all day long... way better then I every could.
My new panel works great and looks great. sparky is the man. :D

For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Best

Ron

[Richard Pultar]

the plan review should include the code references ..that information would clear up any questions..Demanding answers to open ended questions is berating.
The tone of the questions by the plan reviewer leads me towards believing that his focus is a xenophobic reaction to a Desi homeowner lying about doing the work themselves , in a basement that is not going to be used as a bedroom.
It's time to get over any personal bias and just accept that over 10,000 Indians are making their homes in Edison and that's the way it is.
This job is and will be a nightmare .I only wish that the electrician that does the work puts his seal on the paperwork so he takes responsibility.

[neal lewis]

Good luck getting an electrician to do only the plans. He'll want to do the whole job or nothing.

Go to the Home Depot and get the deepest switch/outlet boxes to hold the most wires. Some of them have the box fill stamped right on them.

Richard, ouch.

[Richard Pultar]

The Uniform Construction Code 5:23-2.15 f iii is specific "electrical plans and specifications shall contain: Floor and ceiling plans; lighting, receptacles..location. line diagram and wire,.. and breaker sizes."
Requiring a applicant to be subjected to a Quiz is harassment.The plan reviewer should just do the job. The permiting process can be intimidating enough without being subjected to ridicule.

[Jeff Remas]

The Uniform Construction Code 5:23-2.15 f iii is specific "electrical plans and specifications shall contain: Floor and ceiling plans; lighting, receptacles..location. line diagram and wire,.. and breaker sizes."
Requiring a applicant to be subjected to a Quiz is harassment.The plan reviewer should just do the job. The permiting process can be intimidating enough without being subjected to ridicule.

Sounds to me like someone has issues with a code enforcement department and they are using this forum to vent his/her frustration. I once knew a guy who ended up in litigation over a rental inspection. Now he hates code enforcment people.

[Roland Miller]

When I was an AHJ, I always believed it was the right thing to do to help someone like this gentleman. But I also had the experience that allowed me to do so. The bottom line is--they are going to do it anyway and I would rather be a little more involved to the point of actually getting to inspect it then have them disappear. My job was to make sure the electrical was compliant and safe when finished. Dealing with home owners was very time consuming, often to the point of talking about "big" wires and "little" wires. It get pretty easy for someone to sit in the office and just demand information. I often wonder if they even know what they are looking at or just covering their butts.:rolleyes:

[Jerry Peck]

The Uniform Construction Code 5:23-2.15 f iii is specific "electrical plans and specifications shall contain: Floor and ceiling plans; lighting, receptacles..location. line diagram and wire,.. and breaker sizes."

The person pulling the permit *IS THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE* for the job, and is the person responsible for providing plans which state all of the necessary requirements, which include:

From the 2006 IRC. (bold and underlining are mine)

- R106.1.1 Information on construction documents. Construction documents shall be drawn upon suitable material. Electronic media documents are permitted to be submitted when approved by the building official. Construction documents shall be of sufficient clarity to indicate the location, nature and extent of the work proposed and show in detail that it will conform to the provisions of this code and relevant laws, ordinances, rules and regulations, as determined by the building official.


Requiring a applicant to be subjected to a Quiz is harassment.The plan reviewer should just do the job. The permitting process can be intimidating enough without being subjected to ridicule.

The building official was not ridiculing him, the building official was asking for the information which *IS REQUIRED* to be provided.


When I was an AHJ, I always believed it was the right thing to do to help someone like this gentleman.

Roland,

It is one thing to 'be nice and respectful', it is a completely different thing 'to be expected to design the work' - that is the responsibility of the person applying for the permit.

The plan review process can only be done *if given sufficient information on the plans*, and that information was lacking, so the building official asked for that information ... THAT IS THEIR JOB.

[Richard Pultar]

this is in new jersey, NJ has a law UCC 5.23

[Jerry Peck]

this is in new jersey, NJ has a law UCC 5.23

Isn't NJ using the IRC?

Have they completely removed or amended the Administration portion?

Typically, laws like that are "in addition to" what is prescribed in the adopted code, not 'in place of' because, being the adopted code, that makes the code enforceable, and, if adopted like in Florida, the code become a state law.

[Roland Miller]

IMHO--there is a difference between having multitudes of certifications, reading the code and knowing what you are doing. BUREAUCRACY. The abuse of official influence in the affairs of government; corruption. This word has lately been adopted to signify that those persons who are employed in bureaus abuse their authority by intrigue to promote their own benefit, or that of friends, rather than the public good. The word is derived from the French.

1 a: a body of nonelective government officials b: an administrative policy-making group
2: government characterized by specialization of functions, adherence to fixed rules, and a hierarchy of authority
3: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape, and proliferation

[Roland Miller]

1) What type of boxes are you going to use for receptacles & switches?

2) What kind of wire & gauge? I may use 14 gauge

3) How may cables in each box?

4) Spacing between receptacles?

If these are accurate questions from the electrical plan review--they are pathetic. A genuine plan review would make comments that assure compliance with the adopted codes and standards, not just ask questions. For pete's sake--at least provide the code reference generating the comment. Did this guy have a sign on his forehead that says "pick on me"?

[shatan]

There were 2 other things they asked me

1) LOUVRE DOOR or MAKEUP AIR GRILL HIGH and FLOW FOR MECHANICAL ROOM SHEETROCK BOTTOM OF STAIRCASE

Why do I need to sheetrock bottom of staircase

2) Securing of Wire (Spacing of Staples)

3) PROVIDE HOW THE ALTERATION OF THE BASEMENT TO BE HEATED. INDICATE ELECTRIC BASEBOARD HEAT OR OF USING THE EXISTING HVAC, IT MUST BE CERTIFIED THAT IT WILL SUPPORT THE NEW ADDITIONAL VOLUME, AN THE DUCT WORK IS SIZE CORRECTLY SO THAT IT WILL NOT BECOME OVERLOADED AND HAZARDOUS.

My only question to them was I already have a supply vent currently in my unifinished basement which was provided by the builder and I dont need more than that.Then they gave me reference to 2003 International Mechanical Code Chapter 1 Section 102.4. It states that Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause an existing mechanical system to become unsafe, hazardous or overloaded. How do I convince them. Do I use baseboard heat. If so, what kind. I want the one's which can be plugged into the receptacle. Please advise me on item #1, 2, 3.

[shatan]

Is there a code to have ample heat supply in basement. Whay are they asking me to have baseboard heaters as an alternate?

[shatan]

I can always say that I do not need heat in the basement? Is it mandatory according to the code

[Richard Pultar]

portions of the IRC have been adopted into the UCC in NJ
portions of CABO was the 1 and 2 family prior
admin chapter 1 has been deleted.

[Jeff Remas]

OK, this is my opinion, take it or leave it.

Shatan, you are a DIYr who has come to a home inspection forum for free advice on a project that you obviously are not ready to do by what you have stated and the questions that you have asked.

You need to have a meeting with the code official and go over what you are planning on doing then ask him the questions you are posing here.

You may be physically capable of performing the work but it appears as though you really have no idea what you are doing and will need direction from an in person professional.

It is not the code officials job to design or coach you as that is beyond the scope of his duty.

Maybe you can hire the home inspector who purchased your home when you bought it to see if he does construction consulting separate from his inspection business.

[shatan]

so u mean to say chapter 1 admin ifrom international mechanical code is deleted for nj.

Also, is there really a code for required heating in basement. I do not think so

[Ron Bibler]

So I'm standing in line at the plan check. boy this is going to be a long day. I need to get these plans to the plan check desk and get back to the job...

This guy is asking all these Q. to the guy at the plan check desk. its been 25 Min. the line of people is 25 deep... come on dude. just hand in your plans... What another Q. what was that how many wires in a Box?

Dude its time to go...:eek: I got to get back to the job site!!!

[Jeff Remas]

How far are you from Freehold? Richard Pultar can probably help you out since he is up with the NJ codes.

[shatan]

I am about 1/2 hr away from freehold. Can he help me?

[Billy Stephens]

I can always say that I do not need heat in the basement? Is it mandatory according to the code
.
Only if it's not A living Space.
.

[Jerry Peck]

1) What type of boxes are you going to use for receptacles & switches?

2) What kind of wire & gauge? I may use 14 gauge

3) How may cables in each box?

4) Spacing between receptacles?

If these are accurate questions from the electrical plan review--they are pathetic. A genuine plan review would make comments that assure compliance with the adopted codes and standards, not just ask questions. For pete's sake--at least provide the code reference generating the comment. Did this guy have a sign on his forehead that says "pick on me"?

Roland,

Obviously you have never done plan review before.

The plan reviewer needs to know those things BEFORE they can give an opinion on the plan.

You are sounding like Richard P. in that it is not the submitters obligation to provide the required information, that it is the building departments job to approve whatever incomplete plans are given to them. If that is what you think, you are so very wrong.

Without the required information, the plan reviewer cannot offer an opinion or advice, not even a code reference (other than the one I gave which requires the information be provided on the plans).

[Jerry Peck]

Is there a code to have ample heat supply in basement. Whay are they asking me to have baseboard heaters as an alternate?


I can always say that I do not need heat in the basement? Is it mandatory according to the code

Does not matter what you "say it is", you "are making it habitable space", and habitable space requires heat.

Sounds like you need to stop trying to fight for the worst case condition you can build to, i.e., you need to stop trying to fight for a way to kill your family members and hire a contractor to work with you on the plans, advising you with what is needed, maybe even to explain why.

Then, like with the electrician, you will need to confer with the contractor while doing the work, just as you should confer with the electrician while doing the electrical.

There are very good reasons for all the requirements, and if you listen to Richard P. and Roland rant about why and how cares if you don't do those things, you will end up learning a VERY EXPENSIVE lesson, one in which you could likely have paid for the contractor, electrician, etc., and never have lifted a finger to do any of the work - those lesson do not come cheaply, and, if you persist in you activities and Walmartization (racing for the bottom) of your project, you will likely find that out first hand.

[Jerry Peck]

How far are you from Freehold? Richard Pultar can probably help you out since he is up with the NJ codes..

Jeff,

Richard P. is the last person to help anyone out with any codes. He is very anti-code.

This guy needs real knowledge and real help, and he really needs to hire a contractor to draw up what he needs, then work out a deal to do as much of the work as he may be qualified to do, which may be very little.

Not trying to bust his butt, or yours, but if he listens to Richard P., he will likely end up with serious problems.

[shatan]

Jerry...Please take a look at the attachment in first post of the thread. I am only going to use the area as playing area. So if I am finishing a basement, would it mean I will need heat. My friends in other townships got permits even without heat. So are they really any codes and if so what are those. Mechanical code from chapter 1 section 2 has to do with changes to the furnace but it does not say anything about having heat as mandatory in the code book

Anyone please help?

[Ron Bibler]

Jerry...Please take a look at the attachment in first post of the thread. I am only going to use the area as playing area. So if I am finishing a basement, would it mean I will need heat. My friends in other townships got permits even without heat. So are they really any codes and if so what are those. Mechanical code from chapter 1 section 2 has to do with changes to the furnace but it does not say anything about having heat as mandatory in the code book

Anyone please help?

Just what did they get a permit for? fix a pipe? repair a 2x4 ? or convert a storage/basement into a play room?

Best

Ron

[shatan]

Ron..... All I am doing is a sheetrock on the walls (ofcourse with 2x4s and insulation) and drop ceiling with recessed lights. I am not having any rooms. Just one room for storage and the rest of area is open which can be used as a play area.

[shatan]

It was originally unfinished. I am getting mixed responses. But one thing I am sure is that my friends in other townships got permits to finish a basement with play area/family recreation without having heat vents.

[Ron Bibler]

Sorry they did something to cover the fact that they were converting a storage room into a living space... try converting a garage into a living space... the city will require more then heat!!!

Why don't you just go do without a permit and forget about all the fuss...

I'm sorry but I think you are just cheap and do not want to do the right thing and you are trying to drag this board and these fine inspectors into your mess.

with all respect...

Best

Ron

[shatan]

I am getting so many responses from everyone. But few people are telling me that the township requires me to have heat. Can I find any reference to this or code anywhere which states that

[Ron Bibler]

[quote=Jerry Peck;66118]Does not matter what you "say it is", you "are making it habitable space", and habitable space requires heat.

Sounds like you need to stop trying to fight for the worst case condition you can build to, i.e., you need to stop trying to fight for a way to kill your family members and hire a contractor to work with you on the plans, advising you with what is needed, maybe even to explain why.


quote]

JERRY GAVE YOU ALL THE INFO. YOU JUST DON'T WANT IT.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry...Please take a look at the attachment in first post of the thread. I am only going to use the area as playing area.

Bingo!

Now you are getting it.


So if I am finishing a basement, would it mean I will need heat.

Yes.


My friends in other townships got permits even without heat.

Then either they did not get the permits they should have, or, their local building departments on still back in the ice age.


So are they really any codes and if so what are those.

Yes, there are code sections which address all those things, this is the one regarding heat.

From the 2006 IRC.

- R303.8 Required heating. When the winter design temperature in Table R301.2(1) is below 60°F (16°C), every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating facilities capable of maintaining a minimum room temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor and 2 feet (610 mm) from exterior walls in all habitable rooms at the design temperature. The installation of one or more portable space heaters shall not be used to achieve compliance with this section.

Your "winter design temperature" would be 14 degrees F, which means that heat is required "in all habitable rooms" and must be "capable of maintaining a minimum room temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor and 2 feet (610 mm) from exterior walls".

There are other code sections which cover your other questions.

That is why you really (yes, "really") need to go over your plan with a qualified contractor, one who can guide you through the planing process (what you are doing now), through the permitting process (what you started to do), through the construction process, through your inspections and questions, and through to your Certificate of Occupancy - which you will need before those areas are approved for "occupancy".

And, yes, there will be a cost involved, and, no, that cost will not be anywhere near as much as if you proceeded on you own and kept not doing things correctly.

I am not trying to bust your butt, just trying to educate you in the facts of life on what you should be doing to do your project properly and correctly, and to avoid as many problems as possible.

I can fly up there, go through the code with you and explain it all, going through your plan, etc., however, if *I* were to do it, you would in no way "be saving money" - so I keep repeating "get a local knowledgeable and qualified contractor to work with you".

[shatan]

Jerry.....I think you may be wrong here. I just checked this code with 2006 New Jersey Residential Code and this has been deleted. Please verify and let me know

[Ron Bibler]

I think he is just playing a game. I will bet money that the contractor if one ever get this job will have one class act to work with...

I'm sorry shatan. I have just been around to long and when i see some one like you and post things the way you are. Dude I would not work for you... your the type that will want the contractor to work so cheap that he will be looking for ways to get off your job and get away from you as fast as he can...

But in the end you will be looking for a way to start a lawsuit on the contractor.:D Dude you just don't get and you never will...

I will say no more...

Best

Ron

[shatan]

Those of you living in California and Florida, IRC Code R303.8 for the state of NJ has been deleted.

[Billy Stephens]

Jerry.....I think you may be wrong here. I just checked this code with 2006 New Jersey Residential Code and this has been deleted. Please verify and let me know
.
Go for It Sun - Tan,

If You got "The Book" Build it by "The Book."

You know what your doing, You don't need no Advise.
.
http:YouTube - Stinking Badges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaxURLFn6jU)

[Jeff Remas]

Jerry,

I was not even close to being serious about him using Richard.

Just give up, the answer is that he has to sit down and go over this and get answers from the AHJ but instead he is wasting his time here and our time.

I think we are talking to a brick wall and nothing good will come out of this. He is obviously over his head and is still waiting for someone to tell him what he wants to hear.

[Jeff Remas]

This is a video of a guy finishing his basement, just do what he is doing.

YouTube - Stupid Carpenter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96DnJ61zs2g)

[Jeff Remas]

Another DIY video to help with the process.

YouTube - Stupid Carpenter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96DnJ61zs2g)

[Markus Keller]

Shatan based on your questions and comments you will most likely either electrocute someone or burn your house down. You do not appear to be anywhere near knowledgeable enough to mess with voltage. I understand saving some money but in your case, spend it on a good Mr. Sparky

[shatan]

Those of you living in California and Florida, IRC Code R303.8 for the state of NJ has been deleted.

I am still waiting for answer on this. Is the code really deleted or replaced with a different code

[Jeff Remas]

I am still waiting for answer on this. Is the code really deleted or replaced with a different code

Now this is getting fun. You are making a statement then saying that no on is answering your question. If I had the ability to lock or delete a thread, I would start with this one.

Lets put this on the ignor list.

[Nick Ostrowski]

I am still waiting for answer on this. Is the code really deleted or replaced with a different code

Shatan, you didn't even ask a question previously about this. You made a statement and expected a response.

We're home inspectors here. Some have more experience with electrical installations than others but we're still home inspectors. You need an electrician. You should go find one because you're wasting everybody's time.

[shatan]

Shatan, you didn't even ask a question previously about this. You made a statement and expected a response.

We're home inspectors here. Some have more experience with electrical installations than others but we're still home inspectors. You need an electrician. You should go find one because you're wasting everybody's time.

I am sorry everyone if I have been rude here. That's not my intention. My only question is that is there really a code for requiring heat in the state of new jersey.

[Jim Luttrall]

If a particular section of a code is deleted, it is usually because it is replaced by another (usually more stringent) code. There is not just one code but a series of interrelated codes adopted by your local jurisdiction.
If your local AHJ is requiring heat, then you need heat, he can provide the specific code reference.
From your earlier post you said you had a heat vent so the point is moot.

My only question to them was I already have a supply vent currently in my unfinished basement which was provided by the builder and I dont need more than that.Then they gave me reference to 2003 International Mechanical Code Chapter 1 Section 102.4. It states that Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause an existing mechanical system to become unsafe, hazardous or overloaded. How do I convince them.

Please, please, please get some professional help before you kill someone!
You convince the AHJ by giving them the information they asked for so they can PROTECT you and the others YOU might kill or injure.
If you insist on doing the work yourself, fine, but get help from a licensed professional in your area to help you plan and review your work. This is a part of the cost of doing the work and if you can't afford to do the work correctly, then don't do it.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry.....I think you may be wrong here. I just checked this code with 2006 New Jersey Residential Code and this has been deleted. Please verify and let me know

I don't have the NJ code amendments, and no links to the NJ code to check, but if you checked and if it says what you say it does: 1) I would be surprised; 2) then go for it; 3) but expect to be called on it later when: a) you need to heat that area, b) you go to sell and your buyer demands you install heat, c) I can think of no good reasons to try to "go that cheap".

You REALLY need to contact a local contractor and work with them, especially if the NJ code has amendments to the IRC, only a local contractor would know, SHOULD KNOW, them.

[shatan]

I was told by the township that if I dont plan to upgrade the furnace for heat, I can buy electric baseboard heaters. Would it mean I can buy space saver heaters or do I really need those electric baseboard heaters which are mounted to the wall and prewired for basebpard heaters?

[Jerry Peck]

I was told by the township that if I dont plan to upgrade the furnace for heat, I can buy electric baseboard heaters. Would it mean I can buy space saver heaters.

You mean "portable plug-in heaters"?

No.


or do I really need those electric baseboard heaters which are mounted to the wall and prewired for basebpard heaters?.

Yep.

Permanently mounted and permanently wired in.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Shatan, you live in NJ. Whay do you insist on asking home inspectors who do not live in your area what is required for your state? You should stop fishing for the answers you want to hear on this board and instead get the answers you need to hear from professionals in your own area.

It's not going to do you any good to fight your township by saying "But so-and-so from Illinois or some other state said I didn't need to do that".

Go to your township and find out what you need to do.

[Jerry Peck]

Go to your township and find out what you need to do..

Nick,

He did, and they did.

But they cannot design it for him.

That is why he needs to contact a local contractor and work out something with them (which I did not repeat in my last past as I had said it so often now).

[Billy Stephens]

Here You Go Sun-Tan, :rolleyes:

[Richard Thacker]

1) What type of boxes are you going to use for receptacles & switches?
* Plastic and/or metal per require code.

2) What kind of wire & gauge? I may use 14 gauge
* #14 gauge for general lighting and switches. #12 for any bath outlet. All others to comply with UL approved manufacturer recommendations and code.

3) How may cables in each box?
* not to exceed maximum rated for each individual UL approved box.

4) Spacing between receptacles?
* within 6' feet of either side of an entry to a room and not to exceed 12' between outlets.

Are you required to have a licensed electrician do the work or will they let you do it yourself? They may be pumping you for your general understanding of codes.;)

[shatan]

1) What type of boxes are you going to use for receptacles & switches?
* Plastic and/or metal per require code.

2) What kind of wire & gauge? I may use 14 gauge
* #14 gauge for general lighting and switches. #12 for any bath outlet. All others to comply with UL approved manufacturer recommendations and code.

3) How may cables in each box?
* not to exceed maximum rated for each individual UL approved box.

4) Spacing between receptacles?
* within 6' feet of either side of an entry to a room and not to exceed 12' between outlets.

Are you required to have a licensed electrician do the work or will they let you do it yourself? They may be pumping you for your general understanding of codes.;)


Thanks Richard. I plan to get the work done by myself and a friend of mine who is very good in electrical but not licensed though.

I also plan to buy some space saver heaters as an alternate to povide heat to the basement per the code as I dont plan to upgrade by furnace. Any suggestions on the type or is there a code requirement for me to have some x #? I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.

[Billy Stephens]

I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.
.
Why not just save yourself some time? :(
.

[Richard Thacker]

Thanks Richard. I plan to get the work done by myself and a friend of mine who is very good in electrical but not licensed though.

I also plan to buy some space saver heaters as an alternate to povide heat to the basement per the code as I dont plan to upgrade by furnace. Any suggestions on the type or is there a code requirement for me to have some x #? I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.

Check with your local electrical supply house (if your talking about elerctric space heaters) they should be able to give you some answers for your region. If your planning on gas make sure you are well ventilated, you need fresh air and some where for all the moisture from burning the gas to go.

[Richard Pultar]

If 8 inch block walls have a R value of 1 , and if this is a typical stud ,R11 and sheetrock wall with a R 13 ,
and the existing furnace supply maintains 68 degrees at 4 ft from the floor , why do entertain the idea that a additional load demand will be required.
The total heat demand from the furnace will be lower ,proportionate to the amount of wall that is above grade.
Use your math skills and show the engineering .. you don't need to be a engineer to do engineering.
Even if you did not insulate the R value of sheetrock and air film of the wall is a 2.
That alone is a triple reduction of demand ...
What you and the building plan reviewer are messing up with and everybody ignores is fresh air ventilation needs ,

[shatan]

Also, looks like you are missing some receptacles based on what I can see which is not much.

Richard,
He did not complain about the inspection department and if those were the only questions that he was asked to answer then he is in pretty good shape. We would have required a lot more information than that whether a contractor or homeowner.

Jeff,

Where am I missing the receptacles? Please see the revised attachment and let me know if I am missing any in this

[Jerry Peck]

Jeff,

Where am I missing the receptacles? Please see the revised attachment and let me know if I am missing any in this


You need to put dimensions on that drawing.

Starting at the "storage", the nearest receptacles are shown way around the corners on the wall, with the walls on each side of the storage room doors being 4', that means the receptacles need to be within 2' of those two corners.

I recommend using graph paper and creating a scale, then drawing to that scale.

There are many questions, such as how wide is that stairway?

By the way, I would not waste your money on using #14 AWG as suggested, use #12 AWG for all circuits, that will help reduce voltage drop and you can then protect all circuits with 20 amp breakers. No need to play around with saving a couple of bucks on wire, do it right, put in #12 AWG and forego potential problems.

[shatan]

You need to put dimensions on that drawing.

Starting at the "storage", the nearest receptacles are shown way around the corners on the wall, with the walls on each side of the storage room doors being 4', that means the receptacles need to be within 2' of those two corners.

I recommend using graph paper and creating a scale, then drawing to that scale.

There are many questions, such as how wide is that stairway?

By the way, I would not waste your money on using #14 AWG as suggested, use #12 AWG for all circuits, that will help reduce voltage drop and you can then protect all circuits with 20 amp breakers. No need to play around with saving a couple of bucks on wire, do it right, put in #12 AWG and forego potential problems.

oops I missed that. I will make that correction so that is within 2 feet of those 2 corners. Am I missing any more receptacles. I will use 12AWG with 20 amp breakers as suggested by you. Why is the width of stairway coming into picture here?

[Richard Thacker]

oops I missed that. I will make that correction so that is within 2 feet of those 2 corners. Am I missing any more receptacles. I will use 12AWG with 20 amp breakers as suggested by you. Why is the width of stairway coming into picture here?
I disagree 12-2 is not desirable unless you plan on using the basement circuits for heavier loads like treadmills, dehumidifiers, portable space heaters or any higher amp equipment. Then you will possibly need dedicated circuits. You should not experience voltage drop with 14-2 as long as you don't overload a circuit with excessive items such as recess lights. You should not exceed 12 devices (as a rule of thumb) including switches, outlets and lighting fixtures on any standard circuit whether #12 or #14. 12 wire is a pain in the ass the work within a box, it limits the amount of wires to each box and it's a pain in the ass to install outlets and switches with multiple lines, it kills your fingers and thumbs, it costs more and OH... and it's a pain the ass to work with.

If Shatan had so little regard for #14 why doesn't he just say wire the basement in #10, it's not his money and finger tips anyway. I guess he includes potential voltage drop in his reporting when he encounters 14-2 in homes. Voltage drop will occur with motor loads, over loads and very long runs. Stick to what is proper, works and is the easiest.

Also remember the interior of the plastic boxes will tell you how many wires you are allowed to fit in the box; each black wire = 1, each white = 1, each outlet or switch = 1 and all the grounds together = 1. So if you have a 14-2 feed, a 14-2 feed through, a 14-3 switch leg and a switch you will end up with 9 items for the box. DO NOT overload a box. The inspector, if any, loves to show off by failing a job for simple mistakes.

Remember electricity is not for the weak. It moves too fast and hits too hard. When in doubt always consult a professional, not the guy who wired his dads garage once.:)

[Jerry Peck]

I disagree 12-2 is not desirable ... .

Richard,

Remember, this is a DIY homeowner who does not understand electricity. He NEEDS to run all circuits with #12 AWG so there are no screw ups.

Reduces that aspect of potential screw ups down to -0-.

Based on his drawing, he will not have many conductors going into each box, basically just in-and-out pass through wiring. That will be his easiest and safest wiring method.

If an electrician were doing it, and laying it out, that would be different.

[Dom D'Agostino]

Remember, this is a DIY homeowner who does not understand electricity.

He NEEDS to (run all circuits with #12 AWG so there are no screw ups.) call an electrician immediately.



FWIW.

[Richard Thacker]

.

Richard,

Remember, this is a DIY homeowner who does not understand electricity. He NEEDS to run all circuits with #12 AWG so there are no screw ups.

Reduces that aspect of potential screw ups down to -0-.

Based on his drawing, he will not have many conductors going into each box, basically just in-and-out pass through wiring. That will be his easiest and safest wiring method.

If an electrician were doing it, and laying it out, that would be different.
Screw ups are screw ups regarless of the wire type. What screw ups is he avoiding by using #12 wire. I don't understand how the use of 12-wire makes it less likely to screw up or even safe. Would they be screw ups of inconvienience or safety that he would be avoiding?

If he "a DIY homeowner" is wiring himself, that’s potentially screw up #1. 12 wire takes a little more finesse to work with and that only comes with experience. Its more difficult to properly twist and make adequate connections, that's potential screw up #2. You can more easily crack a switch or outlet when pushing the wired device back into box, potential screw up #3. If you don't achieve proper recessing of the wires from the device, because #12 doesn't like to move, you may have an arching situation, potential screw up #4 and so on and so on.

I don't recommend anyone working with a more difficult material, no matter how minor the difference. Would you advise him to use metal boxes because they're tougher without letting him know how the difference between the installation needs for them as to plastic.All he would have to do is split the circuit and use two feeds for the basement circuit and all would be well. I think that if the DIY'er has confidence or experience with #12 wire, then go ahead, but those who have never handled miles of this wire it's a pain to work with, literally.:cool:

[Jerry Peck]

Screw ups are screw ups regarless of the wire type. What screw ups is he avoiding by using #12 wire. I don't understand how the use of 12-wire makes it less likely to screw up or even safe.


Ummm ... Richard, ... I know you don't understand, and neither does he.

By running all #12 AWG, he can put everything on 20 amp breakers.

He removes the risk of overloading some poorly planned circuits and removes the risk of installing a 20 amp breaker on a 15 amp rated circuit.

There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*.

In a large project, where there is an electrician, who (supposedly) knows what they are doing, then, there is a cost savings of only using #14 AWG where only 15 amp rated circuits are needed, however ... EVEN THEN there is the voltage drop issue, which is readily solved, are at least lessened, by using #12 AWG everywhere.

I repeat:

"There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*."

[Billy Stephens]

.
I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters.

I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.




What screw ups is he avoiding by using #12 wire.
.....

[Jim Port]

Also remember the interior of the plastic boxes will tell you how many wires you are allowed to fit in the box; each black wire = 1, each white = 1, each outlet or switch = 1 and all the grounds together = 1. So if you have a 14-2 feed, a 14-2 feed through, a 14-3 switch leg and a switch you will end up with 9 items for the box. DO NOT overload a box. The inspector, if any, loves to show off by failing a job for simple mistakes.



Each device counts as 2, not 1 as Richard has stated.
14-2 x 2 = 4
14-3 x 1 = 3
ground = 1
switch = 2
Total 10

The allowance for 2 conductors has been in effect for several code cycles. Device size does not matter, ie, a GFI or a dimmer is still 2.

[Richard Thacker]

Each device counts as 2, not 1 as Richard has stated.
14-2 x 2 = 4
14-3 x 1 = 3
ground = 1
switch = 2
Total 10

The allowance for 2 conductors has been in effect for several code cycles. Device size does not matter, ie, a GFI or a dimmer is still 2.
sorry,I am corrected

[Nick Ostrowski]

What exactly does Shatan mean by "space saver heaters"? Is he talking the plug-in fire starters? These things aren't saving any space. If anything, they take up floor space.

I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be resistant to installing a proper permanent heat source in a finished area.

[Richard Thacker]

What exactly does Shatan mean by "space saver heaters"? Is he talking the plug-in fire starters? These things aren't saving any space. If anything, they take up floor space.

I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be resistant to installing a proper permanent heat source in a finished area.
I took it as wall heaters.

[Richard Thacker]

Shatan,
Get an electrician to help you review what needs to be done and prepare documentation. The mere fact that you are here asking basic questions tells me you need help. You may be able to do the wiring yourself but the preparation is key.

Box sizes will depend almost entirely on the number of conductors that will be in them along with the number of devices. Without a cable pull diagram showing how you plan on wiring the fixtures, there is no way to tell what you will need.

The cost of an electrician will be minimal compared to what you will save by doing the work yourself. The code official cannot design anything for you but will give you code references if you fail an inspection.

If you feel the need to finish your basement then you can afford to hire a professional to get you to where you need to be.
I'm with him. Save money on painting not wiring.

[shatan]

Each device counts as 2, not 1 as Richard has stated.
14-2 x 2 = 4
14-3 x 1 = 3
ground = 1
switch = 2
Total 10

The allowance for 2 conductors has been in effect for several code cycles. Device size does not matter, ie, a GFI or a dimmer is still 2.

When asked about how many cables in each electric box from Township, what would be the answer if I have one 14-2 coming in and one 14-2 going out from the electric box. BTW I am using a B122 A Blue Plastic 22.5 cu in box

[Richard Thacker]

When asked about how many cables in each electric box from Township, what would be the answer if I have one 14-2 coming in and one 14-2 going out from the electric box. BTW I am using a B122 A Blue Plastic 22.5 cu in box7, but that's only that box.

[shatan]

7, but that's only that box.

I was wondering why 7 if there is a 14-2 guage coming and 14-2 gauge going out. Do they really mean # of cables or # of wires

[Richard Thacker]

I repeat:

"There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*."[/quote]
"There really is no good reason *not to run all #12 AWG*"
OH yes there is...
"There really is no good reason *to encourage a novice to wire his own house."
His electrical inspector, if he'll have one, should be savvy enough to spot over fusing, but may not see the improper or loose connections under a wire nut or behind a device. Over fusing is something that can be visually detected. Loose and/or poor connections are often hidden and not so spotted, perhaps until after the fire.

I only have concern because most electrical fires, within a circuit, happen because of loose/poor connections. I want this guy to be safe, not be happy because his lights won't dim when his beer fridge kicks on.

Shatan, If you want it done and done safely, hire a master electrician who does residential on a regular basis. Don’t take to chance the safety of your wife and kids so you can save a buck. I respect anyone who is willing to work themselves, but if you screw up on some framing the worst you’ll get is a crooked wall, but if you screw up with the wiring…..

[Dom D'Agostino]

"There really is no good reason *to encourage a novice to wire his own house."

Shatan, If you want it done and done safely, hire a master electrician who does residential on a regular basis. Don’t take to chance the safety of your wife and kids so you can save a buck. I respect anyone who is willing to work themselves, but if you screw up on some framing the worst you’ll get is a crooked wall, but if you screw up with the wiring…..



I agree completely.

[Jerry Peck]

"There really is no good reason *to encourage a novice to wire his own house."

Shatan, If you want it done and done safely, hire a master electrician who does residential on a regular basis. Don’t take to chance the safety of your wife and kids so you can save a buck..

Agreed, and that is what I and others have been telling him.

Then you came in and tried to show him how to wire the house ... :confused: ... against your own advice as you stated above ... :eek:

[Richard Thacker]

[/font].

Agreed, and that is what I and others have been telling him.

Then you came in and tried to show him how to wire the house ... :confused: ... against your own advice as you stated above ... :eek:
How long has Jerry been narcissistic?

[Richard Pultar]

All the fear over a wire nut connection causing a conflagration is silly.
This is a simple basement job.
The terroristic threats of doom if some desi screws up some connections is absurd.
the statistics of incidents of home fires of every thing that this guy might do in that space are minimal.
and the numbers of deaths is even less.

[Jim Port]

All the fear over a wire nut connection causing a conflagration is silly.
This is a simple basement job.
The terroristic threats of doom if some desi screws up some connections is absurd.
the statistics of incidents of home fires of every thing that this guy might do in that space are minimal.
and the numbers of deaths is even less.

Sorry Richard,

Got to disagree with you on this. Loose or poorly made connection are one of the leading causes of fires. One death from poor work is too much. Not only could poor work put his family at risk but also the fire fighters that respond to the fire.

This person is having trouble counting conductors for box fill. Do you think that their ability to judge the quality of a connection is anywhere near qualified? I certainly don't. They have shown disregard that they are over their head.

[shatan]

Sorry Richard,

Got to disagree with you on this. Loose or poorly made connection are one of the leading causes of fires. One death from poor work is too much. Not only could poor work put his family at risk but also the fire fighters that respond to the fire.

This person is having trouble counting conductors for box fill. Do you think that their ability to judge the quality of a connection is anywhere near qualified? I certainly don't. They have shown disregard that they are over their head.
Jim.......I disagree with you and completely agree with Richard. I dont plan to use the basement a lot with heavy power. I am just going to have a cable in and cable out in a receptacle to another receptacle and so on with about 7 receptacles. Why do you think I have a problem counting the number of conductors for a box fill. Its just the naming convention I am confused.

[Jim Port]

I dont plan to use the basement a lot with heavy power. I am just going to have a cable in and cable out in a receptacle to another receptacle and so on with about 7 receptacles.

Just a cursory look at the drawing I don't see how you plan to satisfy the Code required spacing with only 7 receptacles.

If you insist on trying this at least get a good book and do some reading so you know what you are getting into and an idea of the proper methods and requirements.

[Jim Luttrall]

If you insist on trying this at least get a good book and do some reading so you know what you are getting into and an idea of the proper methods and requirements.
Just don't use these books.

Today, Taunton Press, in cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, voluntarily recalled two separate electrical how-to books that contained improper instructions that could put consumers at risk.

The problem with working with electrical is that a novice "can't know what they don't know."
Or as my daddy used to say, "they know just enough to be dangerous."

[Billy Stephens]

Mr. Sun - Tan has already made up his ( convention) mind He can count therefore He can wire a Residential Space.

#1. Best Case.

#2. Worst case ( if someone else is in the Home ) * if no one else is evolved see #1.
.

[Jeff Remas]

Just visited this after a few days. Surprised that this thread is still alive and feeding the original poster. This thread should have been dead a long time ago. This is an inspector forum, not a DIY for morons with zero common sense waiting for someone to tell them what they want to hear.

Let it die.

[Jerry Peck]

This is an inspector forum, not a DIY for morons with zero common sense waiting for someone to tell them what they want to hear.

Let it die.

Jeff,

While this is an inspector forum, it is also a public forum, so we get the occasional DIY person here.

You haven't been here long enough to see that, and, once here, we try to help them see the light in that we try to get them to not kill themselves and their families.

You also have not been here long enough to have read Richard P.'s posts (he is also new here) and his anti-code rantings. Richard P. seems to think that we all have the right to kill ourselves as we see fit (I agree with that part to a point) and to kill others in the process or later (I completely disagree with that part).

[Jeff Remas]

I just figured we were approaching 100 posts with no progress on compliance recommendations. He needs to visit his AHJ.

[Jerry Peck]

I just figured we were approaching 100 posts with no progress on compliance recommendations. He needs to visit his AHJ.


He's been visiting his AHJ, they keep asking for information.

What he needs to do is contact and work with a local contractor to help him design what he needs to have, the AHJ is not there for design purposes.

Then the AHJ can do their job: review the plans for compliance, make inspections.

[Jeff Remas]

He's been visiting his AHJ, they keep asking for information.

What he needs to do is contact and work with a local contractor to help him design what he needs to have, the AHJ is not there for design purposes.

Then the AHJ can do their job: review the plans for compliance, make inspections.

Good point, I agree.

[shatan]

Just a cursory look at the drawing I don't see how you plan to satisfy the Code required spacing with only 7 receptacles.

If you insist on trying this at least get a good book and do some reading so you know what you are getting into and an idea of the proper methods and requirements.

Jim... I will have total 3 connections (15 amps each) from the cirucit panel in garage. One will be used for lighting and 2 for the total receptacles. why would you think that I am not satisfying the code required spacing with only 7 receptacles. BTW I agree that I missed a receptacle from the left side of the mechanical room which I now added in the plan. Now tell me am I voilating any code when it comes to spacing.

[Billy Stephens]

. I will have total 3 connections (15 amps each) from the cirucit
.
* see link
.
Electrical Wiring in the Home: Space heater wiring, amp circuit, amp service (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/Space-heater-wiring.htm)
.

[Jerry Peck]

Billy,

That link says the same thing we have been telling him. :D

"Either way it would be wise to have an electrician come out and check your circuits to make sure you can safely use a space heater on your circuits."

Let's see, he is going to be putting at least two baseboard heaters in down there ... oops, there goes two 20 amp circuits right there ...

... hmmmm ... what was it that I was saying about using #12 AWG for ALL of the circuits??? You know, just in case ... :rolleyes:

[Billy Stephens]

I do not want to buy electric baseboard heaters. I believe its ok per the code to buy space saver heaters.


Billy,."

Let's see, he is going to be putting at least two baseboard heaters in down there ... oops, there goes two 20 amp circuits right there ...

... hmmmm.. :rolleyes:
.
Oh Not This Guy, ( He can count & read a Book.) :eek:
.

[Nick Ostrowski]

3) PROVIDE HOW THE ALTERATION OF THE BASEMENT TO BE HEATED. INDICATE ELECTRIC BASEBOARD HEAT OR OF USING THE EXISTING HVAC, IT MUST BE CERTIFIED THAT IT WILL SUPPORT THE NEW ADDITIONAL VOLUME, AN THE DUCT WORK IS SIZE CORRECTLY SO THAT IT WILL NOT BECOME OVERLOADED AND HAZARDOUS.

My only question to them was I already have a supply vent currently in my unifinished basement which was provided by the builder and I dont need more than that.Then they gave me reference to 2003 International Mechanical Code Chapter 1 Section 102.4. It states that Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause an existing mechanical system to become unsafe, hazardous or overloaded. How do I convince them. Do I use baseboard heat. If so, what kind. I want the one's which can be plugged into the receptacle. Please advise me on item #1, 2, 3.

There's the answer I was looking for. Plug-in heaters are not a permanent heat source. You may not like hardwired electric baseboard heaters but you do need a heat source in the area that is to be finished. If the HVAC supply duct register provided by the builder in your basement is already in that area, then you have your heat source right there. If it isn't in that area, your choices would be either tapping into your existing HVAC system or
electric baseboards.

[shatan]

There's the answer I was looking for. Plug-in heaters are not a permanent heat source. You may not like hardwired electric baseboard heaters but you do need a heat source in the area that is to be finished. If the HVAC supply duct register provided by the builder in your basement is already in that area, then you have your heat source right there. If it isn't in that area, your choices would be either tapping into your existing HVAC system or
electric baseboards.

I was told by the township that if I plan to use space saver heaters then I need to close that HAV supply duct register because they think that that one duct will overburden the furnace.

[Nick Ostrowski]

I was told by the township that if I plan to use space saver heaters then I need to close that HAV supply duct register because they think that that one duct will overburden the furnace.

That doesn't make any sense to me why they would say an existing HVAC supply would overburden the furnace. The builder installed the supply duct and register in your basement for a reason (heat source) and assuming they sized your furnace properly for the square footage of your house, I don't understand how it can overburden the system.

[shatan]

That doesn't make any sense to me why they would say an existing HVAC supply would overburden the furnace. The builder installed the supply duct and register in your basement for a reason (heat source) and assuming they sized your furnace properly for the square footage of your house, I don't understand how it can overburden the system.

I have no idea. I plan to close the duct for now and then reopen after getting Certificate of Occupancy. I will hardly use the basement and hence not keen in upgrading the furnace.

[Jerry Peck]

I was told by the township that if I plan to use space saver heaters then I need to close that HAV supply duct register because they think that that one duct will overburden the furnace.


That doesn't make any sense to me why they would say an existing HVAC supply would overburden the furnace. The builder installed the supply duct and register in your basement for a reason (heat source) and assuming they sized your furnace properly for the square footage of your house, I don't understand how it can overburden the system..

I'm guessing the reason the AHJ said that is the size and CFM capabilities of the one duct, and that it was added 'not to heat the basement', but 'to keep the basement from freezing' - which a big difference.

The *permanent heat source* which is required must be sufficient to maintain the minimum required temperature: From the IRC - "every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating facilities capable of maintaining a minimum room temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor and 2 feet (610 mm) from exterior walls in all habitable rooms".

That one supply was not intended to maintain that temperature, thus they are telling you that you will either need to upgrade the existing furnace to meet that, or, install another heat source to meet it.


I have no idea. I plan to close the duct for now and then reopen after getting Certificate of Occupancy. I will hardly use the basement and hence not keen in upgrading the furnace..

It does not matter "how much you plan to use the basement", it simply matters that the basement is now finished into habitable space, and thus requires a properly sized PERMANENT heating source.

You will not be able to "get away with" those plug-in heaters, you will need to install "permanently installed" heaters capable of heating that area.

Guys, he just does not get it. He only wants to do what he wants to do, and allowing him to talk you into agreeing that he can do less than is required *could* get you involved into a legal problem later.

If he really wanted to do what was required, he would have taken our comments and contacted a contractor to help design what he needs. Instead, he keeps coming back insisting that he does not need to do what is required simply because (reasons vary, mostly "because I don't want to" or "I won't be using that area much" or ... etc.).

We need to let this thread die off, least we become involved and negligent in helping him kill his family or a future family who occupies the house after he sells.

Leave him ponder his own fate, we have helped more than we can for someone who is not looking for advice, but is looking for acceptance on doing what he is doing.

shatan,

You came asking questions, but what you really want is someone to pat you on your back and tell you the AHJ is being too hard on you, that you should do what you want to do regardless ... that is not the case here ... YOU are going about this all wrong, your AHJ is doing the best they can while you are trying to defeat their help, insisting that you only need to do certain things because (your last excuse) "I will hardly use the basement" ... you just do not *get it* - it does not matter 'how often' you will use it, or what you want to try to get away with, the code is there for minimum life safety protection of everyone, you, your family, and future occupants ... have you ever thought about the fact that when you sell the new owners *may well use that area frequently*?

All of us here need to NOT become accomplices, willing or unwilling, to his actions.

[Ron Bibler]

Shatan can you post some photos of the basement about 4 or 5

Best

Ron

[Nick Ostrowski]

[QUOTE=Jerry Peck;66972]have you ever thought about the fact that when you sell the new owners *may well use that area frequently*?[QUOTE]

I often put things this way to my clients when I get the idea that they are willing to live with some defects. There may come a time in the future when you want to move and future buyers will want something fixed. It becomes your responsibility and on your dime if you just accept and live with things as they are. In this case with Shatan, it is even worse because he as the homeowner has been advised multiple times what he needs to do but insists on doing things the wrong way.

You can pay a little now or maybe a whole lot later Shatan. Do it right the first time.

[Ron Bibler]

So we are advising on how to do the electrical and how to work with the AHJ. Hypothetically Speaking this things gets off the ground. he put all the wires in and has the hook up done and something goes wrong:eek: Then every one on the post gets a letter from his Law Office. that things went very wrong and each poster on this board has been named in a law suit. deposition and discovery are to start on Monday.:eek:

Just messing with ya... L.O.L.

Best

Ron

[shatan]

.

I'm guessing the reason the AHJ said that is the size and CFM capabilities of the one duct, and that it was added 'not to heat the basement', but 'to keep the basement from freezing' - which a big difference.

The *permanent heat source* which is required must be sufficient to maintain the minimum required temperature: From the IRC - "every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating facilities capable of maintaining a minimum room temperature of 68°F (20°C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor and 2 feet (610 mm) from exterior walls in all habitable rooms".

That one supply was not intended to maintain that temperature, thus they are telling you that you will either need to upgrade the existing furnace to meet that, or, install another heat source to meet it.

.

It does not matter "how much you plan to use the basement", it simply matters that the basement is now finished into habitable space, and thus requires a properly sized PERMANENT heating source.

You will not be able to "get away with" those plug-in heaters, you will need to install "permanently installed" heaters capable of heating that area.

Guys, he just does not get it. He only wants to do what he wants to do, and allowing him to talk you into agreeing that he can do less than is required *could* get you involved into a legal problem later.

If he really wanted to do what was required, he would have taken our comments and contacted a contractor to help design what he needs. Instead, he keeps coming back insisting that he does not need to do what is required simply because (reasons vary, mostly "because I don't want to" or "I won't be using that area much" or ... etc.).

We need to let this thread die off, least we become involved and negligent in helping him kill his family or a future family who occupies the house after he sells.

Leave him ponder his own fate, we have helped more than we can for someone who is not looking for advice, but is looking for acceptance on doing what he is doing.

shatan,

You came asking questions, but what you really want is someone to pat you on your back and tell you the AHJ is being too hard on you, that you should do what you want to do regardless ... that is not the case here ... YOU are going about this all wrong, your AHJ is doing the best they can while you are trying to defeat their help, insisting that you only need to do certain things because (your last excuse) "I will hardly use the basement" ... you just do not *get it* - it does not matter 'how often' you will use it, or what you want to try to get away with, the code is there for minimum life safety protection of everyone, you, your family, and future occupants ... have you ever thought about the fact that when you sell the new owners *may well use that area frequently*?

All of us here need to NOT become accomplices, willing or unwilling, to his actions.

Jerry..........If I plan to sell the house, I will make sure that there is proper heat.

[shatan]

Shatan can you post some photos of the basement about 4 or 5

Best

Ron

Ron.......Please find the photos attached. Thanks

[Billy Stephens]

........If I plan to sell the house, I will make sure that there is proper heat.
.
If You Live That Long. ;)
.

[Ron Bibler]

Looks like you have a heater in the basement.

if so why do you need to mess with the temp systems?

Best

Ron

[Billy Stephens]

Looks like you have a heater in the basement.

Ron
.
.
It's a Dehumidifier.

Ole Sun -Tan has Moisture Intrusion Issues.
* along with other problems.:D
.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry..........If I plan to sell the house, I will make sure that there is proper heat..

If your AHJ is doing their job, you WILL make sure there is proper PERMANENT heat *before you get your inspection signed off*.

That is up to them, and you. That is what they were telling you, if they stand by the code, when it comes time to have your inspection, you will fail it due to not having permanent heat for that area.

Your call, so be it.

As the guy used to say in the Fram oil filter ads "You can pay me now ... or you can pay me later.", and, as those ads showed, and Billy said, *later* costs a whole lot more than *now*.

[Ron Bibler]

You said hu! hu! hu! Issues. hu!


http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTI3MTE5MjEyN15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODc4NzIzMQ@@._ V1._SX100_SY140_.jpg (http://www.imdb.com/rg/action-box-title/primary-photo/media/rm866357760/tt0105950)

Best

Ron

[Billy Stephens]

You said hu! hu! hu! Issues. hu! \
Best

Ron.
.
.
Yep!
.

[Jerry Peck]

Billy,

I know you're from Memphis, TN, an all, but y'all outta no dat whil weuns can pointe ought whar he's wrong, but yall reely shoed respec da feller 'nough ta kall hym buy hid owed name ... eyes nood Bobby Joe Mack an even Bubba wood kall hym buy hid owed name. :D

His name is not Sun-Tan. While we can see that he is seeking justification and acceptance for not wanting to do what he is required to do and should do, we should at least call him by his own name, right Mr. Billy? :cool:

[Billy Stephens]

Billy,

I know you're from Memphis, TN, an all, but y'all outta no dat whil weuns can pointe ought whar he's wrong, but yall reely shoed respec da feller 'nough ta kall hym buy hid owed name ... eyes nood Bobby Joe Mack an even Bubba wood kall hym buy hid owed name. :D

His name is not Sun-Tan. While we can see that he is seeking justification and acceptance for not wanting to do what he is required to do and should do, we should at least call him by his own name, right Mr. Billy? :cool:
.
It All sounds Like a Scam to Me.
*couldn't believe anything he (or she ) said.

One made up Stage name (shatan) , Sun -Tan all the same.
* could ( should ) have called he or she much worse.

Slap some Drywall on them Wet ( fire trap ) Basement Walls.
.
Until He Takes his Head out It's Sun - Tan !
.

[Roland Miller]

Faulty Instructions Prompt Recall of Electrical Wiring How-to-Books by The Taunton Press; Shock Hazard to Consumers (http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09078.html)

NEWS from CPSC

U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission

Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 30, 2008
Release #09-078
Firm's Recall Hotline: (800) 477-8727
CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908
Faulty Instructions Prompt Recall of Electrical Wiring How-to-Books by The Taunton Press; Shock Hazard to Consumers

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer product. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed.

Name of Product: Wiring a House, 3rd Edition and Wiring Complete, Expert Advice from Start to Finish Instructional Books

Units: About 64,000

Publisher: The Taunton Press, of Newtown, Conn.

Hazard: The books contain several errors in the technical diagrams that could lead consumers to incorrectly install or repair electrical wiring, posing an electrical shock hazard to consumers.

Incidents/Injuries: None reported.

Description: The recall involves the 3rd Edition of Wiring a House. The paperback book’s cover is white and yellow and has a photograph of a man wiring a panel. ISBN #978-1-56158-942-5 is printed on the back cover. Wiring Complete, Expert Advice from Start to Finish is paperback and has a green, black and white cover that shows hands wiring an electrical wall receptacle.

Sold at: Home improvement stores, book stores, and various other retailers nationwide from February 2008 through November 2008 for about $25.

Manufactured in: United States

Remedy: Consumers should immediately stop using the books and return them to the place of purchase for a full refund.

Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Taunton at (800) 477-8727 between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. ET Monday through Friday, or visit the firm’s Web site The Taunton Press (http://www.taunton.com)

[shatan]

I see the following in the Electrical Subcode Technical Section

Qty Size Items
HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler
KW Baseboard Heat

HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler - Do they mean space saver heater or is this something different?
Baseboard Heat - I believe this is eletrci baseboard heat

If Space Heater indeed means Space Saver Heater then I believe I can use Space Heater as an alternate for heating. If so, any calculation of number of them needed according to the code.

[Jerry Peck]

I see the following in the Electrical Subcode Technical Section

Qty Size Items
HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler
KW Baseboard Heat

HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler - Do they mean space saver heater or is this something different?
Baseboard Heat - I believe this is eletrci baseboard heat

If Space Heater indeed means Space Saver Heater then I believe I can use Space Heater as an alternate for heating. If so, any calculation of number of them needed according to the code..

You keep saying "space saver heater" and we keep saying that probably means "portable heaters".

First, you need to clarify what it is you mean by "space saver heater".

[shatan]

.

You keep saying "space saver heater" and we keep saying that probably means "portable heaters".

First, you need to clarify what it is you mean by "space saver heater".

I mean the plug in heaters. When it says Space Heater, does it mean plug in/plug out heaters or is it referring to something else and if it is the case then I belive I can use space heaters on a 20amp/120 v circuit or a 20 amp/220 volt circuit

[Jerry Peck]

I mean the plug in heaters..

That is what I thought.


When it says Space Heater, does it mean plug in/plug out heaters or is it referring to something else.

No, a "space heater" is not a "portable heater".

There are two basic types of heating systems: 1) space heaters which heat the space they are in; 2) central ducted heaters which duct the air to other spaces.

The code does not require you to install a "central ducted heating system", you may install "space heaters" in the spaces requiring heat.

Which gets back to what I keep telling you and you keep trying to not do: YOU NEED TO INSTALL *PERMANENTLY INSTALLED* HEATERS.

That means not only secured in place, but permanently wired and connected in place.

I don't know any other way to keep telling you that. You just keep not wanting to hear it.

I will repeat if for you AGAIN:

"YOU NEED TO INSTALL *PERMANENTLY INSTALLED* HEATERS."

[shatan]

If I am putting 16 Gauge speaker wires through the rough frame work for the speakers on the walls, do I need to specify those on the plans and electric subcode technical section or its not required. BTW I am not ceiling speakers but only wall speakers.

[Billy Stephens]

I see the following in the Electrical Subcode Technical Section

Qty Size Items
HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler
KW Baseboard Heat

HP/KW Space Heater/Air Handler - Do they mean space saver heater or is this something different?
Baseboard Heat - I believe this is eletrci baseboard heat

.
.
.....
.

[Ron Bibler]

http://www.archive.org/serve/bb_and_grampy/bb_and_grampy.gif Sun Tan Sun Tan Sun Tan.

The End

Best

Ron

[Wayne Carlisle]

I just read this thread...well most of it anyway...and you've got to admit...this guy's not going to give up!

If he is like this with the AHJ they'll get tired of him and say "To hell with it! Give this guy whatever he wants and get him the hell out of my office!!"

A question for shatan, have you tried researching anything for yourself?

I think you would know all of the answers if you spent as much time researching as you have asking questions on this forum.

[Jerry Peck]

If he is like this with the AHJ they'll get tired of him and say "To hell with it! Give this guy whatever he wants and get him the hell out of my office!!"


If it were my AHJ, at some point my answer would be: Plan Review - Rejected, then repeat each and every time he came in until he finally did what he needs to do - work something out with a local contractor so he can get it right.

In the meantime, though, I'm through answering his questions, he just does not get it.

[Ron Bibler]

If it were my AHJ, at some point my answer would be: Plan Review - Rejected, then repeat each and every time he came in until he finally did what he needs to do - work something out with a local contractor so he can get it right.

In the meantime, though, I'm through answering his questions, he just does not get it.

He is not going to spend any money on a contractor... I pick that up about 120 some post back... he is just look for some one on this board to give him all the answer and do it for him. he's smart that way. that little rascal.http://www.archive.org/serve/spacemission-byrjt2005/spacemission-byrjt2005.gif

Best

Ron

[Nick Ostrowski]

If I am putting 16 Gauge speaker wires through the rough frame work for the speakers on the walls, do I need to specify those on the plans and electric subcode technical section or its not required. BTW I am not ceiling speakers but only wall speakers.

Those speaker wires will need to be enclosed in PVC conduit and emusified in ovaltine bitumen. If you have trouble fishing the wires through the conduit, there is a product called Liquid Nails that will speed things along. Use lots of it.

[Shannon Guinn]

Also, looks like you are missing some receptacles based on what I can see which is not much.

Richard,
He did not complain about the inspection department and if those were the only questions that he was asked to answer then he is in pretty good shape. We would have required a lot more information than that whether a contractor or homeowner.

Jeff, good post. My jurisdiction hasn't come around to the questionaire for electrical permits, or electrical permits for that matter. We have what are called power only permits, which to me are similar but not quite the cigar I would hope for. The county just wants either a licensed contractor or the homeowner to accept liability. However, other jurisdictions that are close by have instituted this practice, which garners my respect. It's one thing to actually be capable of performing the work to be done versus signing off on a permit and then letting some "guy" that says he knows what he's doing, even though he's not licensed or insured. I would say that this type of installation could land the homeowner in a world of hurt in the event of a fire. I believe that a few questions should be asked to verify the general working knowledge of an applicant for permit before issuance.

[Wayne Carlisle]

I still don't understand why you would ask these kind of questions on a plan review. I think it's overboard for a basement finish out!

[Jerry Peck]

I still don't understand why you would ask these kind of questions on a plan review..

Because it is needed and necessary information to determine the validity of the plan, which is what plan review is for.


I think it's overboard for a basement finish out!.

It is no long "a basement finish out", it now become "enclosed habitable space" - would not you want to know for, say, the "enclosed habitable space" also known as "a bedroom" and a "living room"? Why would you want to know less here?

I still don't see where he is addressing EEROs - not that I am trying to encourage any more questions from him, only trying to open his eyes to what he is doing and what he should be doing (which, so far, has not been successful).

[Wayne Carlisle]

This is the first I've heard of a AHJ requesting size of boxes, number of wire, size of wire etc.

You would determine that at the rough in. Sorry I just don't see it. Yes I do see a schematic showing location of receptacle, smoke detectors, switches and other things to determine if the proposed project met code...but wire sizes/box size...just don't get it.

Architects on commercial plans don't even specify the box size.

Sorry...still overboard in my opinion...but if the AHJ says it has to be submitted then that is all that matters. Got to submit it!

[Stuart Brooks]

I am sorry everyone if I have been rude here. That's not my intention. My only question is that is there really a code for requiring heat in the state of new jersey.

Why are you bothering with plans, permits, and all requirements? YOU want someone to tell you what you want to hear. Just put it in anyway you wish. Don't get a building permit or the required inspections. Over half the "Finished" basements I inspect are thoroughly botched DIY jobs.

Someday you may want to sell this house. Think about it that way. Prospective buyers wont care what YOU need. It will be a lot CHEAPER to put heat in now.

If you go to a restaurant, do you argue and fuss with your server? Before you finish eating? A little advice: Do not argue with the code office or inspectors in a case like this. It will never pay, but it could COST YOU a lot. Having been an inspector (bridge construction), you really, really, do not want to p-off the inspector.

[Stuart Brooks]

This is the first I've heard of a AHJ requesting size of boxes, number of wire, size of wire etc.

You would determine that at the rough in. Sorry I just don't see it. Yes I do see a schematic showing location of receptacle, smoke detectors, switches and other things to determine if the proposed project met code...but wire sizes/box size...just don't get it.

Architects on commercial plans don't even specify the box size. /...

1. This is a Harry homeowner not a commercial job. A really building/electrical dumb Harry at that (in my opinion developed reading this thread).
2. Commercial plans may not specifically show wire and box sizes, but somewhere there is a spec note stating either the appropriate code the installation is to meet or other special provision information if it is not "standard"
3. I personally think the code office was attempting to help a citizen who appears to be totally unqualified. Letting him know there is information that he needs to know to get the job done and they need to know at application/review time.

[Roland Miller]

Roland,

Obviously you have never done plan review before.



The plan reviewer needs to know those things BEFORE they can give an opinion on the plan.

Not true

You are sounding like Richard P. in that it is not the submitters obligation to provide the required information, that it is the building departments job to approve whatever incomplete plans are given to them. If that is what you think, you are so very wrong.

Without the required information, the plan reviewer cannot offer an opinion or advice, not even a code reference (other than the one I gave which requires the information be provided on the plans).

You can complete a plan review and provide meaningful, code referenced comments without this stuff. I could do a plan review without any information and provide meaningful information to the submitter. It just shows me this place is either jerking this guy around or they don't know what they are doing....

You must be right, Jerry--I only did plan reviews for four years....

[Jerry Peck]

I could do a plan review without any information and provide meaningful information to the submitter..

"I could do a plan review without any information ... "

" ... and provide meaningful information to the submitter."

How on earth could you do a plan review without any information?

And then be able to provide any information to the submitter, much less meaningful information?

And you said you've done plan review for 4 years?

The drawings ARE REQUIRED to contain sufficient information (meaning all of the information necessary) to construct what is to be constructed.

From the 2006 IRC. (red text is mine)

- R106.1.1 Information on construction documents. Construction documents shall be drawn upon suitable material. Electronic media documents are permitted to be submitted when approved by the building official. Construction documents shall be of sufficient clarity to indicate the location, nature and extent of the work proposed and show in detail that it will conform to the provisions of this code and relevant laws, ordinances, rules and regulations, as determined by the building official.

Some building departments take that to mean that the plans should contain A LOT of information, EVERYTHING needed to construct what is to be constructed. *I* am of that view also.

Some building departments take that to mean that the plans should contain less information, BUT ENOUGH INFORMATION so as they do not have to ask question (if they have to ask question, obviously that required information is missing).

I have yet to see a building department that does not require any information, and asks no questions - heck, why even have that building department? They are doing nothing of any consequence.

When I was helping review plans for some high-rises in Las Vegas, the number of occupants of each room and area was required to be shown on the plans, as was the number of occupants each corridor, exit stairway, exit discharge, etc., was intended to handle. We did the math to verify that selected occupant loads were correct, then did the math to verify that the occupant load of selected corridors, stairways, etc., could handle the occupant load being impressed upon them ... AND MANY COULD NOT.

That was just an example of some of the information we required TO BE ON THE DRAWINGS. If we had to ask ... then that was "required information" and it was considered MISSING, the drawings were then sent back to the architect to have the MISSING information to be shown on the drawings.

If *IS NOT* the building departments responsibility to design or guess the architects' intent. It is the building departments responsibility to review the plans for compliance, and if the information is missing with regard to plan review, the contractor will not be able to construct it either - not without getting that additional information ... which should have been provided on day one.

I know, I know, ... this is not a 60 story high-rise, it is a basement remodel, NONETHELESS, though, the information required to be able to do the work properly and in accordance with the code *is required to be on the drawings*.

[Roland Miller]

IMHO--there is a difference between having multitudes of certifications, reading the code and knowing what you are doing. BUREAUCRACY. The abuse of official influence in the affairs of government; corruption. This word has lately been adopted to signify that those persons who are employed in bureaus abuse their authority by intrigue to promote their own benefit, or that of friends, rather than the public good. The word is derived from the French.

1 a: a body of nonelective government officials b: an administrative policy-making group
2: government characterized by specialization of functions, adherence to fixed rules, and a hierarchy of authority
3: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape, and proliferation

4)Bureaucrat--one who blindly follows because he doesn't know what he is doing

You just have to know what you are doing.

[Shannon Guinn]

.

Because it is needed and necessary information to determine the validity of the plan, which is what plan review is for.

.

It is no long "a basement finish out", it now become "enclosed habitable space" - would not you want to know for, say, the "enclosed habitable space" also known as "a bedroom" and a "living room"? Why would you want to know less here?


Plus, in some areas of the country (like mine) some people depend on what is known as septic tanks for "you know what". On a house for example, the septic system is based on number of bedrooms. That is something that needs a bit of overkill because if you undersize the septic system and it malfunctions you are literally in a world of, well, "you know what".

Besides, there are some jurisdictions in GA that base their electrical permits pricing on number of drops, size of HVAC, size of service, number of appliances, etc. and require a floorplan. It's not all about the money, I'd like to think that some of the stuff that goes on actually makes sense, if not to me then perhaps someone else. If it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to comply with local requirements I say why not, especially if it helps to protect human life. Just my two cents.

[Jerry Peck]

You just have to know what you are doing.


AND be qualified to do it.

They do go hand in hand.

Neither makes the other a problem.

And, requesting the required information does not make it a hardship on the provider, and, if it does, then the provider of that information should not be undertaking the project to begin with.

It is all about safety and having it done correctly, and being able to know that it is being done correctly.

[Markus Keller]

PLEASE! kill this thread PLEASE :D :rolleyes: :p

[Roland Miller]

Jerry are you originally from Michigan?

[Jerry Peck]

Roland,

Never been there.

[Roland Miller]

Jerry it was either there or California. But never mind, I see you have associated with Mike Holt and probably Bryan Holland and maybe Nick Sasso. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from..:)

[Jerry Peck]

I am just trying to understand where you are coming from..:)


Roland,

I'm coming from back thataway ... heading out thisaway ... trying to pick up some knowledge along the way ... :D

[Roland Miller]

Jerry --It is hard for me to imagine that you could get any more information into your brain. Mine would not hold that much... Thanks for having an accurate code answer for questions. Even though "Home Inspector" may not be inspecting to code they need to be aware of what makes the items they are looking at an issue.

[Mike Schulz]

MY EYES ARE BURNING.

I can't believe I read this whole thread in one sitting. Should of dropped this guy 55 post ago. Jerry you have patience, you keep telling him and he blanks right over it. I would of snapped.:cool:

I think he should use #18 lamp cord. 38 bucks for 250' at the big box. Save your money on receptacles and just hang the wires out of the boxes and cut the plugs off your appliances and twist them together and wrap with Scotch clear tape. :)

I got to go and put some eye drops in!

[Jim Zborowski]

This guy reminds me of someone I use to work with. He would ask no less than 5 people how to do something, then do it his own way anyway. Then he'd beg the same 5 guys to help him fix it after he totally screwed it up. He never learned either.

Shatan, we had a sign hanging in the shop that read " Why is there never time or money to do it right the first time, but there's always time and money to do it over?"
Think about it.