Flexible Gas Line and Shutoff in Cabinet

[Matthew Barnicle]

I don't think this is allowed, but need verification. Gas line to cooktop. Thanks.

[John Arnold]

You're right. The flex connector shouldn't pass through anything or go into any hidden space.

[Rick Cantrell]

"The flex connector shouldn't pass through anything ..."
Not saying you are wrong
It does not exactly say "anything"


2006 IRC
G2422.1.2.3 (411.1.3.3) Prohibited locations and penetrations.
Connectors shall not be concealed within, or
extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or
appliance housings.

So, how could the CSST piping for a dropin cooktop be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?

[John Arnold]

"The flex connector shouldn't pass through anything ..."
Not saying you are wrong
It does not exactly say "anything"


2006 IRC
G2422.1.2.3 (411.1.3.3) Prohibited locations and penetrations.
Connectors shall not be concealed within, or
extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or
appliance housings.

So, how could the CSST piping for a dropin cooktop be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?

I think that there is a partition, ain't it?

CSST is another animal. It can be concealed. What's in the photo is a regular gas connector, not CSST.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Looks like a pretty hard bend on that flex line.

[Jerry Peck]

It also looks like it is kinked.

(Added with edit) Dang, Nick, you must have been clicking 'Submit' when I click 'Post Reply'. :)

[Matthew Barnicle]

"So, how could the CSST piping for a dropin cooktop be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?"

Good point Rick. Anyone have an answer, anyone? anyone? Bueller?

[R Gann]

As long as cutoff and flex line are accessible it is legal. But that kink??

[Russel Ray]

"So, how could the CSST piping for a dropin cooktop be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?"

Good point Rick. Anyone have an answer, anyone? anyone? Bueller?
One can run it through a hole by terminating it on one side of the hole to a rigid piece that goes through the hole. Then, on the other side of the hole, connect another piece of CSST to the cooktop. The best builders here actually do that. Of course, that means that the labor to build each home is increased by about $100, so that adds about $10,000 to the cost of each home. Obviously, then, the only builders who do this type of work are out where the multi-million-dollar properties are being built.

[A.D. Miller]

One can run it through a hole by terminating it on one side of the hole to a rigid piece that goes through the hole. Then, on the other side of the hole, connect another piece of CSST to the cooktop. The best builders here actually do that. Of course, that means that the labor to build each home is increased by about $100, so that adds about $10,000 to the cost of each home. Obviously, then, the only builders who do this type of work are out where the multi-million-dollar properties are being built.

Russell: Incorrect.


G2422.1.2.1 (411.1.3.1) Maximum length. Connectors shall
have an overall length not to exceed 3 feet (914 mm), except for
range and domestic clothes dryer connectors, which shall not
exceed 6 feet (1829 mm) in overall length. Measurement shall
be made along the centerline of the connector. Only one connector
shall be used for each appliance.

[Ted Menelly]

It is accesible both inside the cabinet and under the cooktop itself. Readily accesible, hmmm, what 2 seconds to rip stuff out of the way to get to the shut off. Anyway I see it all the time. It is better to be in the cabinet than behind draws under the cooktop. As far as CSST running thru a hole in the cabinet, a stationary item, no vibration like an HVAC unit, visible on both sides of the hole, accesible, why not. Lets not get to crazy here.

Now, as far as that kink????

Russell. As far as

"One can run it through a hole by terminating it on one side of the hole to a rigid piece that goes through the hole. Then, on the other side of the hole, connect another piece of CSST to the cooktop. The best builders here actually do that."

I have never seen that done for a cooktop. You must live in rose colored glasses builder perfect heaven :)

[A.D. Miller]

I don't think this is allowed, but need verification. Gas line to cooktop. Thanks.

Matthew: Something else is missing that no one has mentioned this far:

A sediment trap is required, not a drip or drip leg – the two terms are not synonymous - is required on the gas line of this unit. A drip or drip leg is the container placed at a low point in a system of piping using “wet” gas to collect condensate and from which the condensate is removable. Most gas supplies currently use dry gas thus eliminating the need for drips or drip legs.
Sediment traps, on the other hand, are required at all gas appliance installation except for gas yard lights, gas clothes dryers, and outdoor grills. In addition to the code requirement, most appliance manufacturers require the installation of a sediment trap (dirt leg) to protect the appliance from debris in the gas. Sediment traps are necessary to protect appliance gas controls from the dirt, soil, pipe chips, pipe joint tapes and compounds and construction site debris that enters the piping during installation and repairs. Hazardous appliance operation could result from debris entering gas controls and burners. Despite the fact that utilities supply clean gas, debris can enter the piping prior to and during installation on the utility side of the system and on the customer side.
Sediment traps are designed to cause the gas flow to change direction 90 degrees (1.57 rad) at the sediment collection point, thus causing the solid or liquid contaminants to drop out of the gas flow. The nipple and cap must not be placed in the branch opening of a tee fitting because this would not create a change in direction of flow and would allow debris to pass over the collection point. Failure to install this sediment trap will result in invalidation of the unit’s manufacturer’s warranty.
G2419.4 (408.4) Sediment trap.
Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.
A cooktop is not a "range":D

[Ted Menelly]

Standard write up because almost nowhere in TX do they have sediment traps



"Sediment traps are required at furnaces and water heaters. No sediment traps were found at the appropriate locations. The common practice in this area excludes these items, but all common building codes and manufacturers require the presence to protect automatic equipment for proper operation and safety."

For areas where the cities are still not inspecting for them. That as well as other aplicable goodies.

[Rick Cantrell]

This is why I called it CSST

2006 IRC
APPLIANCE CONNECTIONS

G2422.1 (411.1) Connecting appliances. Appliances shall be
connected to the piping system by one of the following:
1. Rigid metallic pipe and fittings.
2. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) where installed
in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

[Russel Ray]

Russell: Incorrect.


G2422.1.2.1 (411.1.3.1) Maximum length. Connectors shall
have an overall length not to exceed 3 feet (914 mm), except for
range and domestic clothes dryer connectors, which shall not
exceed 6 feet (1829 mm) in overall length. Measurement shall
be made along the centerline of the connector. Only one connector
shall be used for each appliance.

Talk to the AHJ's here.

[Rick Cantrell]

"Something else is missing that no one has mentioned this far:
A sediment trap is required,..."



G2419.4 (408.4) Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not
incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment
trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff
valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The
sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in
the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device
approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so
equipped.

I think that would include cooktops.

[A.D. Miller]

Talk to the AHJ's here.

Why, if they do not understand English any better than the ones here?

[A.D. Miller]

This is why I called it CSST



2006 IRC
APPLIANCE CONNECTIONS

G2422.1 (411.1) Connecting appliances.

Appliances shall be

connected to the piping system by one of the following:
1. Rigid metallic pipe and fittings.
2. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) where installed
in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.




CSST and flexible appliance connectors are not equal.

[Rick Cantrell]

Just so that I know the difference and don't make the same mistake again, would you post a picture of the CSST the IRC code (G2422.1)is referring to?
Thank you

[Jerry Peck]

From the 2006 IRC.

- G2422.1 (411.1) Connecting appliances. Appliances shall be connected to the piping system by one of the following:
- - 1. Rigid metallic pipe and fittings.
- - 2. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) where installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.
- - 3. Listed and labeled appliance connectors in compliance with ANSI Z21.24 and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and located entirely in the same room as the appliance.
- - 4. Listed and labeled quick-disconnect devices used in conjunction with listed and labeled appliance connectors.
- - 5. Listed and labeled convenience outlets used in conjunction with listed and labeled appliance connectors.
- - 6. Listed and labeled outdoor appliance connectors in compliance with ANSI Z21.75/CSA 6.27 and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.



That shown in the photo is a gas connector (see 3. above)

Regarding using CSST, 2. states "where installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions." and I think that most manufacturers specify gas connectors (back to 3. above).

Gas connectors are not allowed to go through partitions, and that cabinet side is a "partition".

(underlining is mine)
- G2422.1.2.3 (411.1.3.3) Prohibited locations and penetrations. Connectors shall not be concealed within, or extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or appliance housings.
- - Exception: Fireplace inserts that are factory equipped with grommets, sleeves or other means of protection in accordance with the listing of the appliance.

Gas connectors: http://www.dormont.com/dmc/uploadedFiles/FlexTubeCatalog2MB.pdf (go to last page)

[Rick Cantrell]

Jerry
Every time I try to load the page, IE locks uP. I will try it tomorrow when I get to work
Thank you

[Jerry Peck]

Here are the front cover and the last page only.

[Rick Cantrell]

Jerry
Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.
First, let me say that I am not trying to argue this to anyone, or saying that someone is wrong. I'm saying, this is how I think it is. If I am wrong and do not understand, show me what is correct. That is why I'm here.

First sentence on the second page of the link you provided.

" FlexTube is corrugated stainless steel tubing"

My first post was a reply to what John posted



"The flex connector shouldn't pass through anything ..."
Not saying you are wrong
It does not exactly say "anything"

2006 IRC
G2422.1.2.3 (411.1.3.3) Prohibited locations and penetrations.
Connectors shall not be concealed within, or
extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or
appliance housings.

So, how could the CSST piping for a dropin cooktop be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?Not saying you are wrong
It does not exactly say "anything" "

The reply was
"CSST is another animal. It can be concealed. What's in the photo is a regular gas connector, not CSST."

I then posted

"This is why I called it CSST

2006 IRC
APPLIANCE CONNECTIONS

G2422.1 (411.1) Connecting appliances.

Appliances shall be
connected to the piping system by one of the following:
1. Rigid metallic pipe and fittings.
2. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) where installed

in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions."

I have always called it Flex pipe, but when I read the code it says CSST
So when I posted CSST it was because the code says CSST

Maybe it's not CSST, if not, what is the CSST the code is referring to.

As for Partitions
Every reference (that I saw) to "Partition" in the IRC
(except 2; 1 for toilet traps and 1 for electrical panels)
were talking about walls, load bearing, non load bearing, half walls (my word), ect.
It (the IRC) just does'nt seem to be talking about a panel in kitchen cabinets.

So, back to my question.
So, how could the CSST piping for a drop in cook-top be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?

I was not asking this to be a smart AXX. I remodel homes, this (the photo) is pretty much how I would have done it. If that is incorrect how should/ could it be done?
Thank you

[A.D. Miller]

Jerry
Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.
First, let me say that I am not trying to argue this to anyone, or saying that someone is wrong. I'm saying, this is how I think it is. If I am wrong and do not understand, show me what is correct. That is why I'm here.

First sentence on the second page of the link you provided.

" FlexTube is corrugated stainless steel tubing"

My first post was a reply to what John posted



"The flex connector shouldn't pass through anything ..."

Not saying you are wrong
It does not exactly say "anything"


2006 IRC
G2422.1.2.3 (411.1.3.3) Prohibited locations and penetrations.
Connectors shall not be concealed within, or
extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or
appliance housings.

So, how could the CSST piping for a dropin cooktop be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?Not saying you are wrong



It does not exactly say "anything" "

The reply was
"CSST is another animal. It can be concealed. What's in the photo is a regular gas connector, not CSST."

I then posted

"This is why I called it CSST

2006 IRC
APPLIANCE CONNECTIONS

G2422.1 (411.1) Connecting appliances.
Appliances shall be
connected to the piping system by one of the following:
1. Rigid metallic pipe and fittings.
2. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) where installed
in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions."


I have always called it Flex pipe, but when I read the code it says CSST
So when I posted CSST it was because the code says CSST


Maybe it's not CSST, if not, what is the CSST the code is referring to.


As for Partitions
Every reference (that I saw) to "Partition" in the IRC
(except 2; 1 for toilet traps and 1 for electrical panels)
were talking about walls, load bearing, non load bearing, half walls (my word), ect.
It (the IRC) just does'nt seem to be talking about a panel in kitchen cabinets.


So, back to my question.
So, how could the CSST piping for a drop in cook-top be run, and still be able to get to it, without being run through a hole, or concealed?


I was not asking this to be a smart AXX. I remodel homes, this (the photo) is pretty much how I would have done it. If that is incorrect how should/ could it be done?
Thank you




Rick:

Not to belabor the point, but CSST and flexible appliance connectors are not the same thing. CSST is designed and intended for use as a gas supply piping. Flexible appliance connectors are designed and intended to connect appliances to the gas supply piping (via a shut-off valve, of course).

Because CSST is also a flexible material it is allowed as an appliance connector. And as such it is allowed to be installed through partitions and be concealed. That allowance is also made of rigid steel gas piping. It is not allowed for flexible appliance connectors. They are not desinged to be supply piping and cannot be concealed or run through partitions.

Here is the complete citations from the 2006 IRC and Commentary. Maybe this helps:

APPLIANCE CONNECTIONS
G2422.1 (411.1) Connecting appliances. Appliances shall be connected to the piping system by one of the following:
1. Rigid metallic pipe and fittings.
2. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) where installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.
3. Listed and labeled appliance connectors in compliance with ANSI Z21.24 and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and located entirely in the same room as the appliance.
4. Listed and labeled quick-disconnect devices used in conjunction with listed and labeled appliance connectors.
5. Listed and labeled convenience outlets used in conjunction with listed and labeled appliance connectors.
6. Listed and labeled outdoor appliance connectors in compliance with ANSI Z21.75/CSA 6.27 and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions. [1]Connectors are used to connect the appliance or equipment to the gas distribution system outlet. The pipe sizing methods in this chapter size distribution piping up to but not beyond the appliance shutoff valve outlet and this section sizes the connection between the shutoff valve outlet and the appliance [see definition of “Piping system” and Commentary Figure G2422.1(1)]. The choice of a connection type must take into consideration such factors as appliance movement, vibration, ambient conditions and susceptibility to physical damage. Between the shutoff valve and the appliance, a union fitting or similar arrangement must allow a means of disconnecting the piping. Flared or ground-joint connections that are part of an approved, labeled semirigid (“flexible”) connector can serve as a union [see Commentary Figures G2422.1(2) and (3)].
Item 2 addresses CSST connected directly to appliances. Although CSST is allowed to directly connect to specific appliances (fixed/nonmoveable), CSST is not to be used as a substitute for a connector where one is required. CSST manufacturers’ instructions specify where CSST can directly connect to appliances and where it cannot [see Commentary Figures G2422.1(4) and (5)].
Item 3 refers to the commonly used, so called “flexible” connectors typically made of corrugated stainless steel and previously made of brass. Appliance connectors are listed and labeled with the label typically being wrapped around the connector tubing. Most appliance connectors manufactured today have attached plastic labels that state the installation and sizing instructions. These connectors are not designed for repeated movement that causes bending of the metal and should not be reused after the initial installation. Reuse is typically prohibited by the manufacturers’ instructions. Repeated bending and/or vibration can cause metal fatigue, stress cracking and gas leakage [see commentary Figures G2422.1(6) and (7)].
The piping system is sized up to the outlet of the appliance shutoff valve. The connector occurs between the shutoff valve outlet and the appliance and is sized by the connector manufacturer or is based on the appliance input rating, gas inlet size and length of the connector [see Commentary Figure G2422.1(1)]. For example, a boiler is supplied by branch piping required to be 1 inch (25 mm) based on the sizing methods in Section G2413. The branch piping is 1 inch (25 mm) up to the boiler shutoff valve, but the boiler inlet opening is only ½ inch (13 mm). The piping (connector) downstream of the shutoff valve is sized as a connector because it is 6 feet (1829 mm) or less in length (see commentary, Section G2420.5).

[Rick Cantrell]

"Not to belabor the point, ..."
Not at all

"... CSST and flexible appliance connectors are not the same thing."
I understand that

" CSST is designed and intended for use as a gas supply piping."
I understand that

" Flexible appliance connectors are designed and intended to connect appliances to the gas supply piping ..."
I knew that

"Because CSST is also a flexible material it is allowed as an appliance connector."
I did not know that

"Here is the complete citations from the 2006 IRC and Commentary. Maybe this helps:"
It does.

So, even though the photo shows a flexible gas connector made of corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST), it is not the CSST referenced to in item (2) of G2422.

Thank you for the explanation

[A.D. Miller]

So, even though the photo shows a flexible gas connector made of corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST), it is not the CSST referenced to in item (2) of G2422.


Rick: If you are referring to the photo in the original post, it depicts a flexible appliance connector. It may well be constructed of stainless steel, but it is still only a flexible appliance connector and not CSST.

CSST is corrugated stainless steel tubing that is intended to offer an alternative to the traditional threaded black-iron gas piping.

Flexible appliance connectors, though perhaps similar to CSST is some respects, are not the same and cannot be used in lieu of CSST or black-iron piping.

It seems that your confusion stems from the fact that they are a bit similar and that they can both be used for appliance connections, but under different installation stipulations.

Aaron