Z-Metal above windows

[Matt Fellman]

I must be losing my mind.... At first glance this is just dead wrong. My only hesiation is that it's the exact same on at least 500 townhouse/condos built in 05 by a well respected builder (or, at least he was before he went bankrupt).

So, any thoughts? Is there any way this is right?

I was thinking maybe the flashing goes all the way up behind the trim board and next course of siding? But, I don't think that type of flashing even exists. And the trim board would have to be bowed outward I would think.

For more info.... looking up behind the gap left over the flashing that's on top of the window's upper fin I can see some soft screen. Not sure why???

[Rick Hurst]

I personally call it drip edge flashing and it appears to be missing over the top edge of that trim board. Great place for water penetration.

rick

[Steve Reilly]

Drip cap its ok

Steve Reilly

[Matt Fellman]

It's backwards from the way it's traditionally done (at least around here). The top fin of the window acts as a flashing so the flashing there is redundant. And, as Rick says, the seam above the trim board should be flashed. It's called for in most window manufacturer's specs, I believe.

[Brandon Whitmore]

I would write that up as wrong, unless the trim is decorative only (installed over the siding). Code states that flashing is required at "all" trim protrusions. I still can't stand to see belly bands or trim installed over siding with no flashing. The water just sits on the flat surface and causes problems. Worse yet, the water seeps in behind the trim/ band and rots out the wall......

[Brandon Whitmore]

Matt,

That's that newer subdivision up in NW Portland, isn't it. I've inspected 3 of those places in the last year or so. Funny, I looked at that first detail just now and recognized it. There is a rain screen detail on those buildings, but I can't remember what I found on those places--- there were issues.

One thing I do remember-- 2 of them had electrical issues, including under- sized service wires to one of the panels.

If you want, I could probably search through my old reports to see what I wrote up........

[Christopher Gorton]

I think Brandon has a good point. The flashing in picture 2 IF it goes behind the lap siding is acceptable and the piece that is over top is just to continue the 1x4 look of the side pieces. IF the flashing is mounted to the siding and then covered with trim it is unacceptable. How do you write that up? If there were a lot of them like that it may be worth taking one trim piece off to inspect the typical installation method?

[Brian Robertson]

It's backwards from the way it's traditionally done (at least around here). The top fin of the window acts as a flashing so the flashing there is redundant. And, as Rick says, the seam above the trim board should be flashed. It's called for in most window manufacturer's specs, I believe.
Matt, when you say seam, do you mean where the trim meets the siding or just above that where the one piece of siding overlaps the other? If you mean where top of trim meets siding how does that get properly flashed? Thanks:)

[A.D. Miller]

It's backwards from the way it's traditionally done (at least around here). The top fin of the window acts as a flashing so the flashing there is redundant. And, as Rick says, the seam above the trim board should be flashed. It's called for in most window manufacturer's specs, I believe.

Matt: Nail-on flange window flanges or "fins" are not flashing. There is no such thing as a self-flashing window. That's like discussing the self-laid egg. Header flashing is required by both the IRC and the window manufacturers.

[Jerry Peck]

To expand on what Aaron said:

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)

- R703.8 Flashing. Approved corrosion-resistant flashing shall be applied shingle-fashion in such a manner to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish. Approved corrosion-resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations:
- - 1. Exterior window and door openings. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage.
- - 2. At the intersection of chimneys or other masonry construction with frame or stucco walls, with projecting lips on both sides under stucco copings.
- - 3. Under and at the ends of masonry, wood or metal copings and sills.
- - 4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.
- - 5. Where exterior porches, decks or stairs attach to a wall or floor assembly of wood-frame construction.
- - 6. At wall and roof intersections.
- - 7. At built-in gutters.

[Eric Shuman]

To expand on what Aaron said:

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)

- R703.8 Flashing.



- - 4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.






Bold at "wood" above is mine.


The photos in this post show what appears to be cedar (wood) trim around the windows. What if the trim were cementious fiber board - a.k.a hardie board? Would the flashing still be required above it ? (I'm speaking of the trim, not the window top)


Eric

[A.D. Miller]

Bold at "wood" above is mine.



The photos in this post show what appears to be cedar (wood) trim around the windows. What if the trim were cementious fiber board - a.k.a hardie board? Would the flashing still be required above it ? (I'm speaking of the trim, not the window top)



Eric


Eric: No. It's not wood and James Hardie does not require it. The purpose of the trim flashing is to protect the trim and not the window.

[Jerry Peck]

Eric,

Aaron it correct in that such a flashing is to protect the wood from excess moisture and from decaying out.

Flashing the wall, windows, doors, any and all openings is for a different reason - to keep water out of the wall.

[A.D. Miller]

Eric,

Aaron it correct in that such a flashing is to protect the wood from excess moisture and from decaying out.

Flashing the wall, windows, doors, any and all openings is for a different reason - to keep water out of the wall.

JP: And that is precisely why my previous post said, "Header flashing is required by both the IRC and the window manufacturers".

[Jim Luttrall]

According to this information at the James Hardie site:
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install_trim.pdf
They DO required flashing above the window trim. It has a good diagram several pages in.

[A.D. Miller]

According to this information at the James Hardie site:
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install_trim.pdf
They DO required flashing above the window trim. It has a good diagram several pages in.

Jim: Actually that depends entirely on what is being used for trim material. What I see most of the time is ripped down pieces of the vertical siding material installed as trim. You would then refer to this set of instructions:
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/install_plank_south.pdf
Note that this says,


"Install siding and trim products in
compliance with local building code
requirements for clearance between the
bottom edge of the siding and the
adjacent finished grade."

and there is no mention of flashing.

Now, if you are referring, as your post suggest, that the trim is Hardie Trim material, then yes, the instructions you posted are correct and the flashing is required as per the manufacturer. The only problem I see is that the literature you posted is outdated. The most recent one is here:
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/install_trim_5-4_south.pdf

For others, note that these instructions are only for the South. Others are available on Hardie's site for Yankees and surfer boys.

[Jim Luttrall]

Yep, there is a more recent trim installation manual, several of them in fact.

But what I come away with from all of the trim products is that the decorative trim is to be protected by flashing, either implied (from diagrams) or expressed instructions.


TRIM APPLICATION FOR WINDOWS, DOORS &
OTHER OPENINGS
Flashing over trim is required for all installation methods. (fig. 11)
Since I don't see a mention of using lap siding ripped down for trim boards in the lap siding instructions, I would think the lack of mention would lead back to the trim instructions or open up the question of whether Hardie intends such use of lap siding at all.
Lap siding is intended to have a protected top surface by the shingle style installation.

I wonder what they (Hardie) would say if asked? Of course then you get into the legal vs. real world application that we see every day. But it would be interesting to see their response.

[A.D. Miller]

But what I come away with from all of the trim products is that the decorative trim is to be protected by flashing, either implied (from diagrams) or expressed instructions.


Jim: Agree, and that is what I contended.



Since I don't see a mention of using lap siding ripped down for trim boards in the lap siding instructions, I would think the lack of mention would lead back to the trim instructions or open up the question of whether Hardie intends such use of lap siding at all.


Jim: I disagree with you on this. The very lack of specific reference to the need to flash the siding material indicates to me that the flashing is not required.



Lap siding is intended to have a protected top surface by the shingle style installation.


Jim: Maybe. You could certainly present a case for this.



I wonder what they (Hardie) would say if asked? Of course then you get into the legal vs. real world application that we see every day. But it would be interesting to see their response.


Jim: I'll ask them.

[A.D. Miller]

Jim: I just sent the question to James Hardie and, in a head-spinning short amount of time, got their answer. As you suspected, even if the trim consists of ripped down pieces of their vertical siding, it must be flashed.:o

[Jerry Peck]

It's amazing that such a large company, which changes and modifies their installation instructions so often, would drop the drawing which shows the flashing was required and now no longer mentions it.

With Aaron's inquiry, *a new set of installation instructions* will likely appear, replacing those shown there now, so grab onto your seats, download those, and be ready for those to "disappear" like the other older versions have, with the new versions showing that detail drawing with the flashing over the trim.