Home inspections & Code Inspections

[Roland Miller]

Do or should home inspectors document code violations?

Are the two types of inspections inseparable?

As a home inspector are you really inspecting to code a lot of the time and just not referencing it?

OK--Jerry--go for it;) It only contains three questions so don't panic!

[Roland Miller]

If we are not inspecting to code--then why are all of the questions on the certification exams all based on the various codes?? Is the magic in the wording of the reports??

[Jim Port]

Roland,

I have often wondered how you can do an inspection without knowing the Codes and accepted practices. If you think that something doesn't feel or look right what would you be basing your inspection on? You need a baseline to refer to in order to make your decisions. I feel that the SOPs that I have read leave much to be desired and leave large loopholes when something is not found. I realize the without opening every device or having x-ray vision this is just shy of impossible, unless you are like certain members here.:rolleyes: .

I have seen things listed on reports that made me shake my head and wonder if the writer had any field experience. I have also seen suggested fixes for the defects that were worse than the initial defects that would have resulted in code violations.

I remember one that even said the red wires needed to be moved to the red side of the panel. Here field experience would have gone a long way. When this issue was discussed as irrelevant the HO asked why they had paid money to someone that did not know what they were looking at. It only got worse when I found more issues not reported than were. This is not to say that all HIs are this lacking in knowledge but education and certifications and practical experience would go a long way in trying to add some credibility to this profession.

Sorry if my thoughts drifted off track, but these questions have rattled around long enough.

[Jerry McCarthy]

Home inspectors who inspect a home are conducting a code inspection. This idea has been batted around for years and there are still a few who claim "I don't do code inspections." I say Sunshine, "why do you take the dead-front cover off an electrical panel if you're not doing a code inspection?" :confused:

[Roland Miller]

Thanks Jim--you make some very good points. I share much the same opinion. I probably am more of a "code" inspector because of my background but am also a certified HI. The certification exam was based on the codes.

I certainly don't know how you do your inspection with knowing the codes. So maybe the magic is in the wording of the report and also knowing what you know and don't know. Noting a deficiency is sort of a watered down way of referencing the code. Certainly we, as code inspectors or HIs shouldn't be suggesting the solution.

[Matt Fellman]

My personal belief is that all the code talk misleads new people getting into this business and distracts them from learning more of the basics of a house.

Liability and claim wise if you look at a pie chart of where money goes out from an E/O carrier the 'Electrical' wedge is almost invisible while the water penetration and bug infestation wedge is 3/4 of the pie. So, why is the Electrical forum on this (and other boards) the most heavily travelled by far?

And, taking even further, many of us go out there armed with half a head of knowledge while thinking we know it all. Most electricians laugh at HIs. They always have several recent stories where an HI called out some problem and was dead wrong. There are a handful of guys on here that have a great understanding of the code and it's a great way to learn and get better. Personally, though, I take a lot of it with grain of salt once I'm in the field. Basically, I look for the elephants not the mice.

Sorry for the drift.... back to the OP's questions:

I never call anything a code violation

Things that are wrong are usually agaisnt the code but sometimes there are things that you cannot find a code for but still get written up (admittedly, with electrical this is rare)

Yes, we are often inspecting to code but not referencing it. If there is shelving in front of the panel I recommend it be moved. I don't cite the measurements required. Some guys likely do. I don't think either one is right or wrong.

Claiming or offering to do a code inspection on a finished house is not a good idea. The majority of the system is hidden from view and you escalate your client's expectations to a level that's impossible to achieve.... and then the phone rings.

my 2 cents

[Jerry Peck]

OK--Jerry--go for it;) It only contains three questions so don't panic!

Yeah, but they are real tuffies ... :rolleyes:

Now let's see if you can read also.


Do or should home inspectors document code violations?

Yes.

I know some will disagree about making code references, some will (as West Coast Jerry said) deny they are doing 'code' inspections, and some will not know the differences we are talking about.

The only way to "document code violates" (your term) is to reference the code they are in violation of, not in conformance with. Anything short of that you are not "documenting code violations", which is, after all, precisely what you asked about.

Now, a home inspector could chose to not "document code violations" and simply chose to address code violations, in which case the "documentation" would not be required for all such addressed code violations, but, you chose those words (with intent, I suspect), so I am addressing those words. When I did home inspections I chose to document most (almost all) code violations where there were code violations, however, there are many things which get documented by home inspections which are not code violations.


Are the two types of inspections inseparable?

Most definitely they are SEPARABLE.

A "code inspection" performed as a "code inspection" looks at, and for, all "code violations" and "non-code violations", i.e., all items, systems and components and inspected to see whether they are, or are not, in compliance with the code. No leaf unturned, as it may.

A "home inspection" performed as a "code inspection" looks at the visible items, systems and components for 'proper operation', 'leaks', 'installation problems' (such as is currently being discussed about regarding HardiePlank siding), and many things which a "code inspection" is not looking at or for, however, the depth of what the "home inspection" is going into is not the same depth that the "code inspection" goes into.


As a home inspector are you really inspecting to code a lot of the time and just not referencing it?

Not if you are, as you stated, "documenting code violations".

The "home inspection" is looking at a structure which was, supposedly, constructed to code, but also looks beyond that (beyond code). An example is that the "home inspection" is looking for leaks and decayed and damaged walls. The "code inspection" was already performed (supposedly) and looked at the way the window was flashed and installed, which are no longer visible to the "home inspection".

The "code inspection", for example, goes into an older home and is only looking for (as an example) GFCI protection on the receptacle outlets required to be GFCI protected at that time. The "home inspection", in this same example, looks at GFCI protection in all locations, whether or not GFCI protection was required at the time.

On the other hand, the "home inspection" sees a box stuffed full of wires and calls that out because 'it is obviously wrong', code or no code. And, technically, it may end up being 'not wrong'. So be it, if it was full enough to attract the attention of the "home inspection" the "home inspection" was correct in addressing it. In this example, the "code inspection" see a box which looks acceptable and does not address it further, then sees another box which looks too full, so the "code inspector" does the calculation to determine if the box actually is too full or not.

As you asked:


Are the two types of inspections inseparable?

And as I stated above:

"Most definitely they are SEPARABLE."

Three simple questions with three simple answers. :D

[Roland Miller]

Good job Jerry! I think:confused:

I can read--I am just not used to reading in the convoluted circles you write. I think you answered everyone's base question--you don't know how to calculate electrical box fill.

[Jerry Peck]

you don't know how to calculate electrical box fill.

That's easy to do, not applicable to home inspections, but easy to do.

Apparently you 'cannot read', not with you arriving at that.

[Roland Miller]

Actually I got that from the last thread where you failed to answer the questions. They were simple I might add, so you should try them..:eek:

[Scott Patterson]

Do or should home inspectors document code violations?

Are the two types of inspections inseparable?

As a home inspector are you really inspecting to code a lot of the time and just not referencing it?

OK--Jerry--go for it;) It only contains three questions so don't panic!

IMO, a code inspection relates to new construction and is done by the AHJ.

A home inspector that backs up his/her findings with various codes is not a code inspection.

What are codes? Codes are the basic minimum requirement.

So, I would say that as a home inspector we for the most part are inspecting above and beyond the codes.

[Roland Miller]

Hi Scott--I like that--Inspecting "above and beyond" the minimum code requirements. What a concept!!

[Scott Patterson]

If we are not inspecting to code--then why are all of the questions on the certification exams all based on the various codes?? Is the magic in the wording of the reports??

First off the home inspection profession does not have a "True" certification. All of the ones you see now are bestowed by the various organizations and are rather self serving. ASHI is in the process of obtaining NOCA (http://www.noca.org) certification to their membership process and then this will be about as close as you will get to a true professional certification.

If you are talking about the National Home Inspector Examination, it is not a certification exam. It is designed as a basic knowledge licensing exam and not an advanced knowledge exam.

The reason that codes might be used as a reference is that they are a nationally recognized published source that are readily available.

[Scott Patterson]

Hi Scott--I like that--Inspecting "above and beyond" the minimum code requirements. What a concept!!

Well it is better than when a builder says that he builds to code. That is not much to brag about!

[Markus Keller]

Q1- Do HI? - Yes; Should HI? - sure why not, if you are willing to pay by the hour for the service (which people do) then by all means.
But ... unless you are employed by the muni it is virtually impossible to do a full and complete code inspection.
Q2- NO, if you are inspecting for code you are inspecting for minimum standards, presumably life safety issues
As I tell clients, The Code is a foundation to work up from, NOT a ceiling to be reached. When doing an HI I would like to think we are doing better than Code.
Q3- What else would you like to use as a reference point? home depot literature? How much do you think an HI should run if there are 30 violations and a guy references each Code section in his report? Who's going to pay for that.
This question comes around routinely. When it gets asked by someone besides a newbie (who rightfully should ask it), I tend to think it's just a jerk-around question. Don't get me wrong, I believe a lot of really good insight comes out of these discussions ... but when a guy with supposed experience asks it I get the feeling it's really about stirring the pot.
Sorry for the negativity, I don't know why this question is irking me today.

[Kevin Luce]

Scott Patterson;

IMO, a code inspection relates to new construction and is done by the AHJ.


A code inspection relates to when a permit is obtained (which includes new construction).

I know Scott knows this but just encase that one person that is reading this doesn't.

[Bob Spermo]

It is interesting that nobody from Texas has responded yet. Our new rules dictated by new statute say we have to report items such as "No AFCI for the family room" as a deficiency no matter when the house was built. Obviously a 2008 NEC requirement. Then we have to verbally explain it to the buyer! This is one reason I do mostly new construction phase inspections! Therefore, I can conclude that home inspectors in Texas are code inspectors whether they want to be or not!

[Scott Patterson]

It is interesting that nobody from Texas has responded yet. Our new rules dictated by new statute say we have to report items such as "No AFCI for the family room" as a deficiency no matter when the house was built. Obviously a 2008 NEC requirement. Then we have to verbally explain it to the buyer! This is one reason I do mostly new construction phase inspections! Therefore, I can conclude that home inspectors in Texas are code inspectors whether they want to be or not!

TREC strikes again! That is pretty crappy if you ask me.

[Ted Menelly]

I have my .015 cents worth.

Everyone keeps talking about code being the minimum standard or if you inspect by the SOPs you are doing the minimum standard.

Personally, there are a vast amount of items that the minimal standard is all there is to go by unless you are a design freak or electrical engineer etc.etc. WE can all build a home with 2x4s. Some homes are constructed with 2x6s. X amount of nails are needed per what ever you are nailing. Some use roof trusses. Some use 2x6, 2x8, 2x10, 2x12 etc. If youn look at span charts and what ever is being used is matching up with the charts, well, there you go. The minimum is cool. The manufacturer says install like this, well, if it is, there you go. Add more and you just blow the wood apart in many cases. More and or bigger is not always better.

The electric panel. Hmmm. Inspected to the minimum code standards. What else would you do. Would you tell folks to never use 14g wire as a minimum telling them it should be a minimum of 12g. Yes I can quote all day to folks that I would have done this and I would have done that. If that is what I think then am I inspecting above SOPs or codes. Personally I almost always overbuilt. Lumber size, nail patterns in shingles, floor decking, exterior decking etc. etc.. If someone inspected it they would be saying that, gees, why did he use this when all he had to use is this. Then I guess that inspector is inspecting below my standards and inspecting to the minimum.

This whole things about inspecting to the minimum standards is way over blown as far as I am concerned. If it is suppose to be a particular way and it is, well, there you go.

This is one subject that is always beat to death with one person saying the other person is useless because he inspects at the standard, code or just good building practices.

I am not going back over all the other posts but some have said that past experience in the field goes a long, long way. Yes it does. Have some been doing it the wrong way. Yes. Do most have pride in their work and do it the right way. Yes, most.

Back to the original question.

Are we doing code inspections and are tests like the NHI exam based on code, yes, to a point.

A huge amount of our inspections setting aside systems is all based on what is going on in the home. Leaks, cracks, windows, doors walls, weatherstripping, roof shingles, flashing etc. etc. If one has a lick of sense and has done inspecting for a while or has a strong back ground in the trades you are looking at what is right and what is wrong. Much of what I said is inspected based on standard building practices and codes. When I inspect many of those items it is simply common sense.

As far as quoting codes on most of your inspection. Absolutely not needed. If it is wrong it is wrong. That flashing is leaking. Write it up.

Is quoting a code necessary in some occasions. Yes

The water heater is rotten, leaking, corroded, TPR not plumbed to the exterior properly. Write it up. No code quoting is necessary in the slightest.

People are looking for your opinion. Not a quote out of a book. If it is wrong, write it up and the next man in line fixes it. If no one fixes it. Oh well. You tried. They died. Whos fault is it?? Not yours.

The people you are inspecting for already believe that you are the man with the opinion to make their buying experience less of a risk. You don't have to dazzle them with code quotes. If it is wrong tell them so and write it up.

[Jerry McCarthy]

I’ve long held the opinion that home inspectors in general do not want to use the C word because it tightens the noose of liability and frankly most home inspectors and even jurisdictional inspectors don’t really know the codes that well. Besides the threat of potential litigation for missing a non complying code issue there’s the loss of “face� when a wrong call is made and the home inspector has a fresh made omelet on his/her face. In other words lack of adequate knowledge triggers fear and fear triggers vagueness. Sure, it’s rather easy to spot a leaking pipe, broken window pane, of cracked foundation, but how many inspectors know what they’re looking at after they remove the dead front panel off an electrical panel or recognize bad framing system or lack of drain line clean-outs and proper venting?

Just for fun, what’s the difference between a “waste line� and a “drain line� in a residential plumbing system? (JP can't play)

[Kevin Luce]

Just for fun, what’s the difference between a “waste line� and a “drain line� in a residential plumbing system? (JP can't play)
One is for waste and the other is not for waste.:D

What do I get?

[Ted Menelly]

Drain lines collect water from sinks, showers, and tubs waste lines carry waste such as from toilets or I guess it could be disposals as well.

Saying that. They are all drain lines and they are all vented.

[Kevin Luce]

Waste line - Removes water and other materials from the toilet.

Drain line - Plastic or metal pipes collecting water from sinks, showers, bathtubs or appliances.

How close am I?

[Brandon Whitmore]

Crap, I just went over this recently.

Waste line: One that runs to a septic?
Drain Line: Lines inside the structure?

[Jerry McCarthy]

so far........... all wrong! Come on guys, look it up in your code book.

[Jim Port]

Drain lines are for condensate.
Waste lines carry gray and/or black water.

Did I win?

[Nolan Kienitz]

It is interesting that nobody from Texas has responded yet. Our new rules dictated by new statute say we have to report items such as "No AFCI for the family room" as a deficiency no matter when the house was built. Obviously a 2008 NEC requirement. Then we have to verbally explain it to the buyer! This is one reason I do mostly new construction phase inspections! Therefore, I can conclude that home inspectors in Texas are code inspectors whether they want to be or not!

Bob,

It's not that difficult. The new TREC requirement regarding AFCIs is quite similar when TREC required the inspection of GFCI presence "per current standards" even though the property was built in 1955.

Easy enough to have various statements ready in your report application to "note" the lack of AFCIs per current standards (IE: 2008 NEC) and that the home was built in 2003 ... etc., etc..

I provide information as necessary to help 'educate' my clients and explain the related safety issue and the current TREC SOP requirements.

Actually, if I recall, AFCIs are required at all circuits in a home except where GFCIs are required. Not just living rooms.

Again ... not a big deal to make the observation.

[Matt Fellman]

I'll take a stab after thumbing through the code book... It's a drain until it meets the vent? Then, it's a waste pipe?

[Jeff Remas]

We need to keep a very clear separation between home inspection and code inspection when we are working as home inspectors.

It is ok to reference codes when they apply but as a reference only and you need to make that clear.

A HI job is more difficult than that of residential code inspections because you are giving your opinion on a structure that may not have been built under codes or was compliant with codes from days gone by.

The real issue is WHEN is it necessary to use a code reference when inspecting an existing home?

A good example is the lack of GFCIs on a home that was built in 1950 and renovated in 1965. We can recommend that GFCIs be installed for safety enhancement but cannot write that up as a defect. No one can be forced to upgrade their home to current code standards. Remodeling work will have to comply but not for a real estate transfer unless you have local ordinances.

What I have noticed in the past is that inspectors will write up lack of GFCIs in older homes as a defect when in fact, it is not.

There are structural defects and there are recommendations and the two also need to be separated very clearly on a report. Some state home inspection laws will define what a structural defect is.

If we have a home that is only a few years old and we know that the home was built under a specific code then I feel as though we have the right and are obligated to reference a code section and hold the structure to that standard. For older homes with unknown build and or remodel dates it is much more difficult to take that stance.

Keep everything in context and understand your purpose in the transaction. You are there to educate the buyer on the condition of the home so that they can make an educated decision on whether or not they will purchase it. Just make sure that you are very clear on the difference in your report between a true defect, maintenance issues and recommendation for enhancement of the structure or components of.

[Kevin Luce]

It is ok to reference codes when they apply but as a reference only and you need to make that clear.
I just wanted to post this part since I strongly believe in this statement.

[Jim Luttrall]

Just for fun, what’s the difference between a “waste line� and a “drain line� in a residential plumbing system? (JP can't play)
"Waste line" is not defined in the IRC but "Waste Pipe" is piping than conveys only liquid sewage not containing fecal matter. While "drain" is any pipe that carries soil and water borne wastes in a building drainage system.

So Waste is NO POOP and Drain is WITH POOP.
According to the definitions in the front of the 2003 IRC.

[Jerry Peck]

A good example is the lack of GFCIs on a home that was built in 1950 and renovated in 1965. We can recommend that GFCIs be installed for safety enhancement but cannot write that up as a defect. No one can be forced to upgrade their home to current code standards. Remodeling work will have to comply but not for a real estate transfer unless you have local ordinances.

What I have noticed in the past is that inspectors will write up lack of GFCIs in older homes as a defect when in fact, it is not.

Not having GFCI protection installed where GFCI protection should be installed BY TODAY'S code *IS* a defect ... it is a recognized SAFETY DEFECT.

If you are inspecting a 150 year old original house, IT WILL BE JUST AS UNSAFE to not have GFCI protection in that house as in another house constructed last year. Safety knows no bounds, it does not read code books, safety and improvements to make things safer come about because BAD THINGS HAPPENED and people came up with a way to stop or reduce those bad things from happening.

Can the HI make the client or seller install GFCI protection in that old house? Nope. Neither can the HI make the client or seller install GFCI protection in that one year old house where it was missed either.

Thus, whether the HI "can make" someone do anything or not is not a valid argument ... HIs *cannot make* anyone do anything.

As a good friend of mine says "We have no teeth, all we can do is gum them to death."

[Ted Menelly]

I will continue to call the main line the waste line and anything uder a sink , shower or tub a drain line. This what the world thinks and I am not going to try and convince the world any differently. The main waste clean out generally in front of the home is what everyone refers to it as, the main waste cleanout. anything under the sinks and such are called drain line. Or sink drain. or tub drain etc.

I think I will continue to call the pipe the poop goes thru to the street the main waste line that leads to the sewer line.

[Jeff Remas]

Ted, you can call them whatever you want to call them. It is your right to do so. I still refer to a "hot water heater" that way so I know where you are coming from.

The rest of the professional world will call them as they have always called them for clarification and uniformity.

DRAIN. Any pipe that carries wastewater or water-borne
wastes in a building drainage system.

WASTE. The discharge from any fixture, appliance, area or
appurtenance that does not contain fecal matter.

[Kevin Luce]

Not having GFCI protection installed where GFCI protection should be installed BY TODAY'S code *IS* a defect ... it is a recognized SAFETY DEFECT.

I personally don't like the word "safety defect" and think it's misleading. If it's not there, what is defective? I consider GFCI added protection just like air bags in a car (Example: My 1977 Chrysler LeBaron that somebody else owns but still is on the road).

If a GFCI is installed and the safety feature doesn't work, that's a different story.

[Ted Menelly]

Not arguing. We were asked the difference between waste and drain lines, (initially) and that is what I went with.

You must admit

"DRAIN. Any pipe that carries wastewater or water-borne
wastes in a building drainage system.

WASTE. The discharge from any fixture, appliance, area or
appurtenance that does not contain fecal matter."

All sounds kind of silly to your client. They know the "main waste cleanout" is generally in the front planting bed on a large majority of homes. If you ask 99 percent of home buyers/owners the difference they will pretty much say the way I put it. Drain=water.....waste=poop main waste line=both and leads to the sewer line in the street.

[A.D. Miller]

As I mentioned in another thread, I quote the building codes in my reports. I do so because of my background and ICC certifications. It is a business choice.

In Texas, where the HI standards are written (or at least approved) by lawyers who work for the Texas Real Estate Commission; have built no houses; have no construction experience; have no inkling as to what the building code requires; have no experience (as well as no interest) in defending home inspectors against lawsuits; have the mandate to protect (in theory) only the consumers; have the mandate (in practice) to protect only the Texas Real Estate Commission, reference to the building codes in HI reports are required. Yes, required by the standards of practice.

The problem lies in the fact that these reference to code are only required in areas where the TREC has arbitrarily decided that the body count due to this or that property material or system condition is sufficiently elevated so as to warrant noting these conditions as "defective" (their term, not mine) as per current building standards.

What then will prevent a litigator from insisting that you are liable because you failed to note some other violation of the currently adopted building code cycle in your report? Nothing. So, I put it all in there. All of it. Every last one that I can observe and report. Let the god damned attorney sort through my report for a couple of hours before he sighs and calls his client with a "I think we should pursue the sellers, the agent, and the brokers instead of this guy who has dotted each "i" and crossed every "t".

Are you, as an HI, doing a "code inspection"? No. Not unless you are doing interim new construction inspections. And only then if you are properly certified. If you do not have the required certification then you are only pretending to be doing code inspections. This is a very thin sheet of legal ice to be treading indeed.

Are you, as an HI, advised by common sense (and perhaps SOP) to (1) be intimately familiar with the building codes, and (2) report on these issues to include code citations in your reports? Absolutely.

Aaron

[Jerry Peck]

I personally don't like the word "safety defect" and think it's misleading. If it's not there, what is defective?


No one said 'the GFCI' is defective - how can it be, it's not there, ... 'the SAFETY aspect' is defective ... because it is not there.

Thus, it becomes a "safety defect". I like the word "deficiency" better than "defect", but home inspectors talk about "defects". Besides, what is a "deficiency" if not a "defect"?

[Jerry McCarthy]

Thank you Jim & Jeff for looking up the correct answers to my question. I used that very same question in my code classes for years and I would estimate only about 5% got it right…. The first time.

I truly feel sorry for the inspectors in Texas due to the ridiculous standards they work under set by a body of folks representing a self interest group. Who ever believes state licensing is a good thing should practice in Texas. (I would rather have root-canal work)

Half-dozen. thoughts while shaving:
1. All home inspectors should lobby to have the name of the profession changed to “Real Estate Inspector.�
2. All Real Estate Inspectors should be ICC members and organize their own local ICC Chapters.
3. All Real Estate Inspectors should become ICC Certified Residential Combination Inspectors.
4. All Real Estate Inspectors should at a minimum triple their inspection fees.
5. All those entering the Real Estate Inspector profession should serve a minimum of 1 year apprenticeship.
6. All new Real Estate Inspectors should have a National REI Board approved mentor.

[A.D. Miller]

I truly feel sorry for the inspectors in Texas due to the ridiculous standards they work under set by a body of folks representing a self interest group. Who ever believes state licensing is a good thing should practice in Texas. (I would rather have root-canal work)


JM: Amen.



5. All those entering the Real Estate Inspector profession should serve a minimum of 1 year apprenticeship.
6. All new Real Estate Inspectors should have a National REI Board approved mentor.


JM: And the qualifications of the mentor should be:

1. A minimum of 10 years experience as a residential construction general contractor.
2. A minimum of 10,000 completed residential building inspections.
3. A minimum of R-5 ICC certification.
4. A minimum IQ of 105.
5. A minimum of three times as much patience as I have.:D

[Wayne Carlisle]

A.D.
What is a......3. A minimum of R-5 ICC certification.

I see it on the request sheet for certification request but don't see where it defines it? I'll keep looking.

[A.D. Miller]

A.D.
What is a......3. A minimum of R-5 ICC certification.

I see it on the request sheet for certification request but don't see where it defines it? I'll keek looking.

Wayne: Residential Combination Inspector. Their designation, not mine.

[Wayne Carlisle]

I just figured it out! Duuuh!

Building, Electrical, Plumbing, Mechanical and......the last one is Energy???????

[A.D. Miller]

I just figured it out! Duuuh!

Building, Electrical, Plumbing, Mechanical and......the last one is Energy???????

Wayne:

No, just those 4. The R-5 is a combination license that indicates you have those 4. B-5 is the same way.

[Wayne Carlisle]

It's been a looooong day!

The brain is dead...stress of driving to work this AM....watching out for the idiots...and you being in the DFW area you know what I mean....ice and DFW drivers don't mix!!!

I'm 11 minutes from where I live to my work and this AM I left at 7AM arrived at 7:45:eek: :eek:

[Jerry Peck]

Residential Combination Inspector is shown as requiring B1, E1, M1, and P1 (Residential Building, Electrical, Mechanical, and Plumbing)

It is possible that by having all 4 you get to apply for the "Residential Combination Inspector", which needs its own category, an R5 category, which is simply a "Residential Combination Inspector" (no R5, that is just a certification number).

[Kevin Luce]

Thus, it becomes a "safety defect". I like the word "deficiency" better than "defect", but home inspectors talk about "defects". Besides, what is a "deficiency" if not a "defect"?
So you and I agree that "Safety defect" is not the best to use and can be misleading to a % of home buyers/sellers and Realtors.

I still have to disagree about the GFCI receptacles. The word "Deficiency" refers to some thing that is needed, essential, required or necessary. I don't think anyone can say that GFCI receptacles are needed, essential, required or necessary. Many other people feel the same way I do since it is not required to upgrade to GFCI receptacles on houses that were built before GFCI receptacles existed (Exception: A permit is pulled which will then require them to installed GFCI).

Just like smoke detectors. On newer homes they are required not only to be battery operated but also hard wired. If smoke detectors are not hard wired, I would not write it up as a "Safety Defect" on an old house. If there was a permit issued for an addition to a house and some of the smoke detectors are hard wired and some are not (no access to run electrical wiring), I personally don't think the smoke detectors that are not hard wired is a "Safety Defect".

Just my thought.:)

[A.D. Miller]

It's been a looooong day!

The brain is dead...stress of driving to work this AM....watching out for the idiots...and you being in the DFW area you know what I mean....ice and DFW drivers don't mix!!!

I'm 11 minutes from where I live to my work and this AM I left at 7AM arrived at 7:45:eek: :eek:

Wayne: I moved my inspections today to Friday. I refuse to drive on ice in Dallas with other Texas "drivers".

[Jerry Peck]

So you and I agree that "Safety defect" is not the best to use and can be misleading to a % of home buyers/sellers and Realtors.

Nope, no sale on that one.:D

"Safety defect" is the best of the choices the home inspector has to use, unless and until some better term is given by someone.

Confusing home/buyers/sellers? Nope, that is a very clear term that they understand. :cool:

Realtors? Who cares what they understand, why even ask? :D

Glad you agree with me on those.

[A.D. Miller]

"Safety defect" is the best of the choices the home inspector has to use, unless and until some better term is given by someone.


JP: On the money.



Realtors? Who cares what they understand, why even ask? :D


JP: Agreed.

It might be enlightening at some time in the future to further investigate the method approved by the NTSB for flight crew communication. There are three levels of suggested communication between the crew and the pilot that go something like this in order of severity:

1. Captain, I am concerned about this condition.
2. Captain, I am uncomfortable about this condition.
3. Captain, I believe this condition to be unsafe.

[Ted Menelly]

Wayne: I moved my inspections today to Friday. I refuse to drive on ice in Dallas with other Texas "drivers".

Thats funny. I put one of today until tomorrow for the ice situation. Not a problem with me but do you think a realtor or my termite folks or anyone for that matter that had anything to do with scheduling would answer the phone.

Not to mention all the roofs were iced up and you could not even see the shingles.

Oh well, enother day.

[Scott Patterson]

I like to use this phrase with safety items, like GFCI or AFCI's
For increased safety a ___insert item___ should be installed in/at ____location____. Although they might not have been required when this home was built, they will increase the overall safety of the home.

I know it is a little wordy for me, but it has served me well for many years. Folks seldom argue about increased safety!

[Ted Menelly]

I like to use this phrase with safety items, like GFCI or AFCI's
For increased safety a ___insert item___ should be installed in/at ____location____. Although they might not have been required when this home was built, they will increase the overall safety of the home.

I know it is a little wordy for me, but it has served me well for many years. Folks seldom argue about increased safety!


We are now suppose to mention the new AFCI thing in our reports. As the home was built it was not required but it is a good safety item to push on. I am not sure I will ever push on it as hard as GFCIs. GFCIs are one of my pet peeves and I always write it up as needed period. No one has ever gotten ticked or POd that I know of, well, maybe one person. I always write up GFCIs like they need to be in all homes, just because, they do.

AFCI's keeping a little electric arc from forming (do they?) maybe snatching a plug out of a receptacle or dropping a lamp and an arc forming. All of these little tidbit are going to happen when you are there anyway. Is is a major crisis like becoming a ground with no or faulty GFCIs. I don't think so.

Oh well. We gotta write em up, we gotta write em up. Won't kill my day. A water pressure test, won't kill my day. Where is the shut off or meter, always wrote them up anyway.

The new standards in Texas. I don't find it any big deal at all. Feeling sorry for the inspectors in licensed states???? Why??? It is just a guideline to go buy and certain things you have to mention. I mentioned all these things anyway. Well. Not always a water pressure test if pressure and volume were just ducky in the home. In that case why would I have checked the water volume or pressure. I just did in my inspection.

Don't feel sorry for us folks. I think most people are just fine with the new standards. They are really no big deal.

As far as the legal ramifications. The litigators, so what. If they are going to come they are going to come. To me one of those disclaimer reports looks like you are trying to hide something, skate away from something, skirt the issue, cover your A*s

Has everyone here been sued out of their shoes or what.. The fear of God is enacted in the home inspection business.

Stop running scared in life. If someone sues you for what ever foolish reason. Oh well. Sh*t happens. To turn inspection reports into 50 page booklets. Gees. And all of that is to protect you???? From what????? The report could have been 10 pages (not counting pics) I email and print when needed only 6 pics per page so there is no squinting going on. even with the pics mine are maybe 17 18 pages.

I know. It's the booooooogy man.

[Richard Stanley]

Just a note for you non-Texas interested parties--
As of 2/1/09 deficiency is the operative word.
example: No GFI today is in need of repair - 2/1 it will be a deficiency.
That sounds like an upgrade!!
ps. I agree with Ted - No big deal - did it anyway.

[Kevin Luce]

"Safety defect" is the best of the choices the home inspector has to use, unless and until some better term is given by someone.
I think a better word is "Improve".
make or become better: to make something better in quality or condition, or become better



Confusing home/buyers/sellers? Nope, that is a very clear term that they understand. :cool:

Must be a location thing. Around here, most people think of the word "defect" as a:
flaw in something: a physical problem in a machine, structure, or system, especially one that prevents it from functioning correctly

Realtors? Who cares what they understand, why even ask? :D
Man, I'm glad that city inspectors around here don't feel the same way about contractors as you do about Realtors.

[Jerry Peck]

Must be a location thing. Around here, most people think of the word "defect" as a:
flaw in something: a physical problem in a machine, structure, or system, especially one that prevents it from functioning correctly

In a 2008 constructed house, there is no GFCI protection installed for the bathrooms.

What do you call that when you write it up? What heading do you put it under?

Just curious.

[Jerry Peck]

1. Captain, I am concerned about this condition.
2. Captain, I am uncomfortable about this condition.
3. Captain, I believe this condition to be unsafe.


1. Immediate action required: Captain, I believe this condition to be unsafe. We just took a double bird strike!

2. Action required: Captain, I am uncomfortable about this condition. I see a flock of birds heading straight toward us.

3. Maintain full awareness, prepare to act: Captain, I am concerned about this condition. I see a flock of birds out on the horizon.

[Kevin Luce]

In a 2008 constructed house, there is no GFCI protection installed for the bathrooms.

What do you call that when you write it up? What heading do you put it under?

Just curious.
· Repair: denotes a system or component which is missing or which needs corrective action to assure proper and reliable function.


I feel it is a component that is missing which needs to be installed as it was required, or should have been required, when the house was built.

[Jerry Peck]

· Repair: denotes a system or component which is missing or which needs corrective action to assure proper and reliable function.


Why does it need to have a "Repair"?

You cannot "Repair" something which is not there.

You did, after all, state:


flaw in something: a physical problem in a machine, structure, or system, especially one that prevents it from functioning correctly

Main Entry: 3repair
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French reparer, from Latin reparare, from re- + parare to prepare — more at pare (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pare)
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 a: to restore by replacing a part or putting together what is torn or broken : fix (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix) <repair a shoe> b: to restore to a sound or healthy state : renew (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/renew) <repair his strength>
2: to make good : compensate for : remedy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remedy) <repair a gap in my reading>
intransitive verb:
to make repairs (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/repairs)

[Kevin Luce]

It refers to this definition:
▸ verb: set straight or right

It doesn't matter if the GFCI was not installed in the first place or somebody replaced it with a standard receptacle, the GFCI should be installed as intended.

[Jerry Peck]

It doesn't matter if the GFCI was not installed in the first place or somebody replaced it with a standard receptacle, the GFCI should be installed as intended.

Now that is a valid statement, and that is a repair, a repair of a defect, and *nothing was broken* either. :D

Glad you finally agreed with me. :cool:

[Roland Miller]

Si el GFCI receptáculo o amparo estado no requerir por clave hasta el momento construcción no serÃ*a escrito como un defecto o deficiencia.

[Jerry Peck]

Si el GFCI receptáculo o amparo estado no requerir por clave hasta el momento construcción no serÃ*a escrito como un defecto o deficiencia.


So, if GFCI protection was not required at the time of construction, you would not write it up as a defect or a deficiency.

Interesting.

[Roland Miller]

O bueno - Sé Inglesa estado no su primero lenguaje. YO would make una nota de él siendo un probar seguridad aparato. En un residencia inspección se vende , estarÃ*a ponerse el opción por lo comprador preguntar para ellos ser instalar. UN nuevo clave does no make cosas de construción bajo más viejo clave - deficiente

[Jerry McCarthy]

Reminds me of the last words of Captain Edward John Smith of HMS Titanic; “F___ the icebergs boys, full steam ahead!�

[Wayne Carlisle]

No es bueno para la mierda!

[A.D. Miller]

No es bueno para la mierda!

Gentlemen: I did not push "2", do not even have a "2" button on my device and therefore do not wish to see Spanish on my monitor. The last time I checked English was still the official language in this country, so please refrain.:mad:

If you wish to communicate in this other inferior tongue, please refer to one of these sites:

1. http://www.inspectmytacos.com:)

2. http://www.nobuenocasa.net:p

3. http://www.speakyeeengleesh.org:D

[Ted Menelly]

Gentlemen: I did not push "2", do not even have a "2" button on my device and therefore do not wish to see Spanish on my monitor. The last time I checked English was still the official language in this country, so please refrain.:mad:

If you wish to communicate in this other inferior tongue, please refer to one of these sites:

1. http://www.inspectmytacos.com:)

2. http://www.nobuenocasa.net:p

3. http://www.speakyeeengleesh.org:D


Thanks Aaron

I am glad to hear I am not the only one that believes when one lives in a particular country, one speaks that countries language.

Some folks have a hard time hearing that. My Italian side grandparents came over on the boat and the first thing they wanted to do was learn to speak English to fit into American society. They did not come here expecting the rest of the country to learn their language. Phone messages when calling some where. store signs, highway signs, directions for everything you buy. It has gotten out of control.

[Wayne Carlisle]

Yes sir. I'm sorry.:(

I was wondering how the other guys new what the heck to say and knew what it meant so I googled it and found out that google lets you type in phrases and it will translate to any language you want. Pretty cool though!

I was really throwing out the Mescan talk though!!:D

[Jerry Peck]

I agree with Aaron and Ted.

When my great-great-great grandparents come here (how many great-greats is beyond me) two things happened (depending on which part of the family I am referring to).

A) They ended up chasing the locals into the woods and took the country over from them. :eek:

B) They learned to speak English like what was being spoken here in not the German they knew from all their lives. I do not recall my grandparents or great grandparents (the ones from Germany) ever speaking German. :cool:

To come here and build to a code written in English, using plans written in English, and not be able to read, write, or speak English - how on earth can we expect anything other than what we get?

Also, when immigrants become citizens they have attested and demonstrated that they can read, write and speak English. Being as only citizens can vote, why then do we have ballots in multiple languages?

On the other side ... if *I* were to go to Brazil (as an example) to build, it would be *MY responsibility* to learn Portuguese.

Wayne,

That's how I knew what Roland said in his post, I posted it in several of the translators (all came up with similar translations, which were a bit weird, but they did let me know what he was saying).

My Spanish is "no habla español" ... and I don't even say that correctly.

I would like to learn some Spanish, but I have not even gotten English down yet, and my brain does not work on other languages - some people can do it and it is easy, others (like me) simply cannot.

[Fred Warner]

Native Americans discovered Columbus.
When the "English" arrived here they spoke english and settled here with their language. They did not change to the indigenous Native languages.

[Jerry Peck]

Native Americans discovered Columbus.
When the "English" arrived here they spoke english and settled here with their language. They did not change to the indigenous Native languages.

No, when the "English" arrived and settled here they did not change the Native languages, they simply pushed the Natives back into the woods, further and further and then onto reservations, making English the "new" language.

Think about it, that is exactly what is happening now to English in this country.

[Roland Miller]

Even here in the wilderness--we are getting over run by Spanish speaking individuals. You couldn't survive a midnight trip to Walmart if you didn't know spanish. All the labels change from English to Spanish at 10pm.. And then back to English at 6am..

PS--I am English speaking and was only trying to figure out which language Jerry understood the best...:)

[A.D. Miller]

Think about it, that is exactly what is happening now to English in this country


JP: Only if we allow it to be so.

[Roland Miller]

Nice graphics on your webpage Aaron!

[Fred Warner]

Where do you suppose the new english-speaking reservation will be established forcing us 2nd wave indigenous people (1st wave being the Native Americans) to live?

[Jerry Peck]

Aaron,

I will never forget one old Cuban cabinet maker who made all the cabinets for one of the project I worked on back in the late 1980s. I wish all were like him as he felt the same why I do about this issue.

One day he was up delivering cabinets with his men and and was talking with me, he was having difficulty saying what he wanted to say, so I apologized for not being able to speak Spanish ... he replied "No, no, *it is my job to learn English*, not your job to learn Spanish." After some more of the conversation he said (pointing to his workers) "If only they would do the same, but the young do not listen. They do not care." (not precise quotes as the quotes indicate, but what he said was to that effect)

[A.D. Miller]

Nice graphics on your webpage Aaron!

Roland: Thanks, but know that those are generic stock photo people on there. I look a bit more bedraggled . . .


Where do you suppose the new English-speaking reservation will be established forcing us 2nd wave indigenous people (1st wave being the Native Americans) to live?

Fred: Well, it certainly won't be in Texas, California, or Florida - they're already too far gone. California will be the center of the Mexicanese movement. Texas will be the Mexicowboy reservation, and Florida the Afro-Cuban Bubba center of culture.

They never have spoken English in the Northeast, so the Mexicans are not interested in going there. Neither am I. The rest of the country's just too boring for most of them - at least so far . . . not many beheadings or juntas to keep their pre-Columbian minds engaged.:D

[Jerry Peck]

Where do you suppose the new english-speaking reservation will be established forcing us 2nd wave indigenous people (1st wave being the Native Americans) to live?

I believe we will still be allowed to reside where we are, however, if you've ever been in Miami and in Little Havana, or Little Haiti, or ... You will see ALL signs are in Spanish, and everyone talks Spanish, and when a person like me walks in ... it is like a person from anther country walking in, I might as well have been from China and speaking Chinese - there were no English sub-titles either.

[A.D. Miller]

I believe we will still be allowed to reside where we are, however, if you've ever been in Miami and in Little Havana, or Little Haiti, or ... You will see ALL signs are in Spanish, and everyone talks Spanish, and when a person like me walks in ... it is like a person from anther country walking in, I might as well have been from China and speaking Chinese - there were no English sub-titles either.

JP: Damned good food there though . . .

[Ted Menelly]

I believe we will still be allowed to reside where we are, however, if you've ever been in Miami and in Little Havana, or Little Haiti, or ... You will see ALL signs are in Spanish, and everyone talks Spanish, and when a person like me walks in ... it is like a person from anther country walking in, I might as well have been from China and speaking Chinese - there were no English sub-titles either.


I remember years ago in South Miami I went into a store when I still smoked a little. I asked for what ever I was smoking and the woman behind the counter acted like she had no clue what I was saying. Her badge on her chest said manager. I went to a home depot and had to reach next to my seat when, with no exaggeration 30 Hispanic ran at my truck. All looking to get some work. The same thing happened in Georgia at a home depot. In Miami I could have used some brickies. When I asked in English if any of them were familiar or had experience they all just stared at me. I will guarantee you that not one of them were a citizen or had a green card for that matter.

As far as the natives. I am 25 &#37; native. Cherokee. We don't want to get into between North, Central and South America the possible millions that were killed. starved or died from our illnesses or killed in the name of God etc. etc.

Look at my Italian ancestry. Gees. How long did they kill, mame, starve enslave. My goodness. Pretty scary.

When I moved to Florida 20 some odd years ago I had African American construction workers telling me, the Italian imigrant, Irish imigrant, Cherokee Indian guy, only one grandparent, back that I owed them something because I was white. Crazy world we live in.

[Jerry Peck]

only one grandparent,


You lost me there ... how is that possible?

I, and most :) , have four grandparents.

All are dead, mind you, but I have four grandparents, two from Germany (both immigrated when they were young kids with their parents), the other two had been here generations, one going back to Samuel Clemens and the other going back to the Mayflower. That and $5 might get you a cup of coffee at the Starbucks place, if any are still open.

No body owes me anything because I was here 'second' (Ted was here 'first', don't owe him anything either :) ). Ted, sorry about everything that went on that neither of us were involved in 'back then'. ;)

[Ted Menelly]

You lost me there ... how is that possible?

I, and most :) , have four grandparents.

All are dead, mind you, but I have four grandparents, two from Germany (both immigrated when they were young kids with their parents), the other two had been here generations, one going back to Samuel Clemens and the other going back to the Mayflower. That and $5 might get you a cup of coffee at the Starbucks place, if any are still open.

No body owes me anything because I was here 'second' (Ted was here 'first', don't owe him anything either :) ). Ted, sorry about everything that went on that neither of us were involved in 'back then'. ;)

My garndmother and grandfather on my mothers side. GF Irish imigrant. GM Cherokee Indian.

GF and GM on my fathers side were from Italy. Only one granparent back before they were Imigrants or American Indian.

[Rick Hurst]

Reminds me of the last words of Captain Edward John Smith of HMS Titanic; “F___ the icebergs boys, full steam ahead!�


Jerry,

I've never mentioned it before, but I actually am related to a Charles John Hurst who was known as a "fireman" on the Titanic which was another name for someone who shoveled the coal. And yes, he went down with the ship.

rick

[JORY LANNES]

A home inspector is required to do what the State standards of practice requires or is promulgated by the state that the inspection takes place.

Deviate from the SOP, Say hello the legal system in that state.



Jory Lannes
Lannes Group Inspections
Evanston, Illinois

[Matt Fellman]

A home inspector is required to do what the State standards of practice requires or is promulgated by the state that the inspection takes place.

Deviate from the SOP, Say hello the legal system in that state.



Jory Lannes
Lannes Group Inspections
Evanston, Illinois

You're right..... BUT,

As we pretty much all agree, most SOPs are minimal at best. Do you really only test one outlet per room and operate one window per room in a vacant house?

Going beyond and outside the SOPs is okay but communication and documenting what you did is key.

My contract states that I can't find failed thermal pane windows but when I see one I'll mention it.... but then remind them in the report that I don't promise to find them all or that more might exist that cannot be discovered until the weather conditions change.

I do the same for mold, rodents and many other things. Basically, I go beyond the standards to keep up with the standard of care and to point out things that I think I should (rodents again.... not required but how can I not mention piles of crap all over?) - But, in the end the SOPs and your contract are what an attorney will have in 40 point font on a poster board in front of you in a courtroom.

[JORY LANNES]

Matt
I totally agree with your answer. I check every reachable outlet, every reachable window and door etc. This goes farther than my state SOP. I never mention that four letter word "CODE" in my reports.

The question however was re guarding "should home inspectors document code violations". My answer simply is what is the SOP for the state the report is being produced in.

If one continues your observations "CODE" is really the minimum basic building requirements.

[Matt Fellman]

Matt
I totally agree with your answer. I check every reachable outlet, every reachable window and door etc. This goes farther than my state SOP. I never mention that four letter word "CODE" in my reports.

The question however was re guarding "should home inspectors document code violations". My answer simply is what is the SOP for the state the report is being produced in.

If one continues your observations "CODE" is really the minimum basic building requirements.

Oops.... I forgot what section I was even typing in. I think I need to seek help... I'm an Inspection News addict :)

[A.D. Miller]

Those idealists among you who actually believe that adhering to the minimum SOP or even exceeding the SOP will make you immune to repercussions from your licensing agency or somehow prevent litigation are living in a dream world. These are fine practices, but they are not magic elixirs.:D

[RANDY NICHOLAS]

Funny thing this morning while eating breakfast at the local country cafe.
Two older guys having coffee, one notices my truck outside with "home Inspections" on the back window.
One says to the other:
"Your're selling yer old house that you built 20 years ago, you might find the home inspector and ask some questions about it passing an inspection. you built it to code didn't you?"
"Naw, I started building in the summer and finished in September. It never got too "code" (cold).

I almost chocked on my biscuit!

[RANDY NICHOLAS]

Ooops
"choked" although the biscuit could be used as a wheel chock