Home inspector responsibilities...

[Sam Toast]

I am sorry to bother you all. I would like to ask a few questions since you are the experts in this field. I do understand that home inspection regulations differ from state to state. I live in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Could you please comment on the following questions:
1. In which state do you work?
2. Is a HI expected to check all of the outlets?
3. Is a HI allowed to temporarily move the fiberglass insulation to look behind it to assess structural integrity of the wall once he is aware of a past termite infestation?
3. Is a HI expected to temporarily move the fiberglass insulation to look behind it to assess structural integrity of the wall once he is aware of a past termite infestation?
4. What would you expect a HI do to determine the structural integrity once he is aware of a past termite infestation?

I specifically focused my questions on the HI rather than a termite inspector. I am desperate for your feedback and I truly appreciate all your time and suggestions. Thank you...

[Jerry Peck]

Could you please comment on the following questions:
Q: "1. In which state do you work?"
A: Typically, that would not matter.

Q: "2. Is a HI expected to check all of the outlets?"
A: No.

Q: "3. Is a HI allowed to temporarily move the fiberglass insulation to look behind it to assess structural integrity of the wall once he is aware of a past termite infestation?"
A: There are very few "limitations place on what an HI is ALLOWED to do".

Q: "3. Is a HI expected to temporarily move the fiberglass insulation to look behind it to assess structural integrity of the wall once he is aware of a past termite infestation?"
A: No.

Q: "4. What would you expect a HI do to determine the structural integrity once he is aware of a past termite infestation?"
A: Difficult to state exactly what one would do as it depends entirely upon what one is presented with at the time, but the general answer is: Look for related damage.

Q: (Okay, it was a statement, not a question) "I specifically focused my questions on the HI rather than a termite inspector."
A: (Okay, it is a question, not an answer) Why? I would be looking HARDER at the termite inspector and the termite inspection process and its requirements as promulgated for your state.


I am desperate for your feedback and I truly appreciate all your time and suggestions. Thank you...

Sam, you should mention (as a reminder) that you have a potential, ... VERY POTENTIAL ... litigation action being contemplated against the home inspector, and you should include, and list first, the termite inspector, and then everyone else involved in your botched purchase and transaction.

Getting opinions here will not really help you with your case, and, in fact, the more you discuss it here, the greater the potential possibility that you will state something which could, or will, come back to haunt you later when you do take that step to litigation.

[Sam Toast]

Thank you...

[Matt Fellman]

I am sorry to bother you all. I would like to ask a few questions since you are the experts in this field. I do understand that home inspection regulations differ from state to state. I live in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Could you please comment on the following questions:
1. In which state do you work?
2. Is a HI expected to check all of the outlets?
3. Is a HI allowed to temporarily move the fiberglass insulation to look behind it to assess structural integrity of the wall once he is aware of a past termite infestation?
3. Is a HI expected to temporarily move the fiberglass insulation to look behind it to assess structural integrity of the wall once he is aware of a past termite infestation?
4. What would you expect a HI do to determine the structural integrity once he is aware of a past termite infestation?

I specifically focused my questions on the HI rather than a termite inspector. I am desperate for your feedback and I truly appreciate all your time and suggestions. Thank you...

Oregon

No

Allowed? Not specified. He should recommend it be moved or warn you of a potential problem once he suspects one. It's tough to know what he knew, though.

Probe suspected wood as long as doing so won't damage a finished surface - that's how my SOPs read.

[Denny L West]

In the state of Ohio you have to be licsend to do pest inspections and to determine the amount of damage . but how ever as a home inspector we are to report the location and recommmend a further evaluation by a lics. pest inspector . As NACHI certified we are trained and tought to record our findings ,. I know for me when Im doing a inspection and I see termite damage I take a photo record where its at and try to determine how much damage . for my records . I report what i find and give suugestions on follow up or repairs . that covers my butt . as far as checking all out lets no . Some times I do when there is an open ground issue .

[Scott Patterson]

As NACHI certified we are trained and tought to record our findings ,. I know for me when Im doing a inspection and I see termite damage I take a photo record where its at and try to determine how much damage . for my records . I report what i find and give suugestions on follow up or repairs . that covers my butt . as far as checking all out lets no . Some times I do when there is an open ground issue .

That is what all home inspectors should do, especially in a licensed state like IN.

[Denny L West]

You will be surprised as to how many will say thats out of the scope of my inspection because im not lics. I even had a pest inspector call me because he got a copy of one of my reports and asked me if I was lics . to report that . I thought whats his problem hes there hes getting work .all becauase I suggested the client have a further evaluation. his aditude for me writing it up was some what confusing . so I just let it go and keep doing what Im supposed to do report what I find. :) :)

[Tom Maides]

Sam,

In TN, only licensed Structural Engineers are allowed to comment on the safety of a structure (ie. structural integrity of a building). If you hired a home inspector to do a Structural Engineer's job, that was your first mistake. If you hired the home inspector and asked his opinion of the structure, thats a different matter.

If I were made aware of a termite infestation during the inspection, I would at least refer you to a termite inspector. If the termite inspector has been there and flagged the problem, I would refer you to first a licensed contractor, then, depending upon several factors such as the amount of damage, the comfort level of the contractor with designing a fix, etc., a structural engineer. So, in order: 1. TN, 2. No, 3. Not required to do destructive inspection without the homeowner's knowledge and consent, and, no inspector is going look for your "needle in a haystack", 4. If there is visible evidence of damage, a home inspector should refer you to a licensed contractor in which case he does do destructive evaluation with permission. If the damage is not visible but he is made aware of a past condition, a termite inspector should be referred.

[Jerry Peck]

You will be surprised as to how many will say thats out of the scope of my inspection because im not lics. I even had a pest inspector call me because he got a copy of one of my reports and asked me if I was lics . to report that . I thought whats his problem hes there hes getting work .all becauase I suggested the client have a further evaluation. his aditude for me writing it up was some what confusing . so I just let it go and keep doing what Im supposed to do report what I find. :) :)


What's his problem?

Possibly only that you IDENTIFIED that as "termite" damage, and, in doing so, you were performing pest control without a license.

You, as a non-licensed pest control person should not be identifying "termite" damage, you should be identifying "damage" and "structural damage" and possibly even "wood destroying insect" damage.

But as soon as you identify that damage as "termite" damage, you are acting as an unlicensed pest control inspector.

At least that is the way it is in Florida, and I believe it is also that way in many other states.

The home inspectors job IS NOT to identify it as "termite" damage, only "structural damage" and have a licensed pest control operator determine extent, type, and treatment. Or, if you want to take on the liability for it, you can identify the extent of the damage - me, I left that to structural engineers.

As a home inspector I identified the structural damage.

As a pest control operator I identified the type of damage.

As a non-engineer I did not identify the extent of the damage, even though I am also a licensed GC.

[Denny L West]

Let me put it this way As a NACHI certified Home inspector Our training on wood destroying insects .teaches us the differance between Powderpost bettles, carpenterants , and termites . And other wood destroying organisims . And I feel and will always feel I report what I find . with this attached to it .Please have a follow up inspection done by a lisc pest or wood destroying insect Inspector of your choosing .and I always state Present investaion on unknown . and indicate signs of thier presence .And # 2 I dont pull things apart . I usually look at the whole area to determine how bad it is with photos to back that up . I do this top protect my self . and if they dont follow up they cant come after me . Its ok to go by the book . and its ok to be totaly honest and go the extra mile when doing inspections . when a pest inspector arivves at the home with the report in hand and the photos he will be able to go to the source and get a better look then Im sure he will recommned a strucureal engineer to follow up. Or give his own opinion.

[Jerry Peck]

Let me put it this way As a NACHI certified Home inspector Our training on wood destroying insects .teaches us the differance between Powderpost bettles, carpenterants , and termites . And other wood destroying organisims .

In licensed states, it does not matter what you have training in, it matters in what you are licensed in.

In Florida, you could, would, likely get your hand slapped the first time you were reported for identifying termites without a license, accompanied with a nice letter saying not to do it again. Your next time would likely result in a letter accompanied with another piece of paper telling you that not only do you need to cease and desist from practicing pest control without a license, but include will be a coupon in which the state will ask you to return with 500 bucks. Keep it up and that find will get quite high, AND can include jail time.

Just because "you know", or think you know, it does not mean that you have the right to practice pest control without a license if your state has such a license and such requirements and limitations.

That would be like your state having home inspector licensing and someone, anyone, "who knows" about home inspecting coming in and saying 'I have the right to do that because I was trained in it'. Think that would make any difference in a state which has licensing?

Nope.

Thus that same thing applies to you practicing pest control without being licensed to do so.

It has never ceased to amaze me how many home inspector expect a license to protect them, yet turn right around and ignore other licensing requirements because ... they think they are better than that and the licensing does not apply to them.

[Denny L West]

Jerry ::::Whats up with you ! I never said I practice pest control . That means I would be able to tell the client how to treat or how to fix. I report because the training I took helps me to Identify . which means I am certified and trained to I dentify. BY NACHI its part of the training .. I went to The state testing site passed the test .Didnt get my lisc. because the extra E & O insurance they require to inspect and treat is rediculus . I dont want to treat just inspect for. When I asked the trainer On Reporting my findings he says if you know what they are then you better report it . you just cant say how to treat or reapair it. So get off your High stool and use common sense instead of leagal eagle stuff. It would be like Well Im certified to test the electrical system how ever I cant tell you what is wrong because IM not liscAs a electrican . We are gerneralist trained cto report defects . and thats what I do . I dont fix , I dont treat , I just say need to have this reevaluated by a lisc. pest inspectorOra lisc plumber Or a lisc Electrican . That my Job ,.......................:D :mad:

[Denny L West]

Even to get lisc you need to know and how dose one learn there is no law that says I cant read a book to study law . Or about electricity or plumbing, or pest control , there is alot out there . To know something is one thing ,to do ,to act upon ,and to be real is another . I was not born yesterday when it comes to home inspecting and the laws and the standars of practice that I live and work by. I study every year to stay current with my certifications . and to be a home inspector you are trained in more areas then just looking at some thing you have know something about pest to determine if the client needs a follow up . If I were to do an inspection . and didnt report pest . and in some cases some lending institutions Dont require a pest inspection. And I over look and dont report then guess what it my A## if you know what I mean.

[Robert Olson]

Sam, It's never a bother to seek advice and the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. In Texas, the Real Estate Commission is charged with HI training, registration and so on. To that goal, they have establshed a set of standards that HI go by. Generally, a HI is not required to look under something such as insulation and generally a HI can only give what he believes to be an evaluation of anything structural unless he has a BSCE or PE after his name. They are, however, required to inform a client that there are problems with the structure and advise them to seek a PE or CE to have a second look. Yes, it's another added cost but if a $35K problem is found, the $500 is well worth it. I do however question as to whether tell tale termite signs were present during inspection. Tubes, frass, sawdust and even soil within a few inches of a wall's sole plate indicate conditions conducive to termite infestation and thise signs are pretty evident.
First look at the standard for home inspections in your state, next check the standards for inspections of wood destroying insects under whoever regulates pest control operators. Next look at your owner's disclosure statement and see if termites were mentioned. If the owner had a previous paid to date contract for pest & termite control, you have another avenue to investigate. What you don't want to have happen is the spread to the home itself. Most reputable pest operators offer a free inspection prior to treatment - I have had great luck with Terminix but that's me. Call a couple of operators - like any other discipline, you're going to need a few comments from various people, if only on a report.
As for checking all outlets, Texas requires a majority sampling of outlets before noting them unless they're GFIs. Then all exterior, kitchen countertop and bathroom outlets must be checked out.
You should also contact a good real estate or construction litigator if for nothing but advice. He's the go to guy when crap like this rears up.
Good luck.

[Jerry Peck]

In the state of Ohio you have to be licsend to do pest inspections and to determine the amount of damage . but how ever as a home inspector we are to report the location and recommmend a further evaluation by a lics. pest inspector . As NACHI certified we are trained and tought to record our findings ,. I know for me when Im doing a inspection and I see termite damage I take a photo record where its at and try to determine how much damage . for my records . I report what i find and give suugestions on follow up or repairs . that covers my butt . as far as checking all out lets no . Some times I do when there is an open ground issue .


You will be surprised as to how many will say thats out of the scope of my inspection because im not lics. I even had a pest inspector call me because he got a copy of one of my reports and asked me if I was lics . to report that . I thought whats his problem hes there hes getting work .all becauase I suggested the client have a further evaluation. his aditude for me writing it up was some what confusing . so I just let it go and keep doing what Im supposed to do report what I find. :) :)


Let me put it this way As a NACHI certified Home inspector Our training on wood destroying insects .teaches us the differance between Powderpost bettles, carpenterants , and termites . And other wood destroying organisims . And I feel and will always feel I report what I find . with this attached to it .Please have a follow up inspection done by a lisc pest or wood destroying insect Inspector of your choosing .and I always state Present investaion on unknown . and indicate signs of thier presence .And # 2 I dont pull things apart . I usually look at the whole area to determine how bad it is with photos to back that up . I do this top protect my self . and if they dont follow up they cant come after me . Its ok to go by the book . and its ok to be totaly honest and go the extra mile when doing inspections . when a pest inspector arivves at the home with the report in hand and the photos he will be able to go to the source and get a better look then Im sure he will recommned a strucureal engineer to follow up. Or give his own opinion.


Jerry ::::Whats up with you ! I never said I practice pest control .

Danny,

Go back and re-read your posts, quoted above, then clarify that either you DO NOT report "termite" damage or you DO report termite damage (along with the damage from "Powderpost bettles, carpenterants , and termites . And other wood destroying organisims "}.

*IF* you report, as your above posts imply, "termite damage" (or any of the other "Powderpost bettles, carpenterants , and termites . And other wood destroying organisims" damage), then you ARE identifying the pest.

Pest control is not just 'applying chemicals', "pest control" includes "identification" of the pests, and, you implied in your posts above that you do "identify" what caused/what type of damage it is.

You can clarify that by clarifying that you DO NOT report it as identifying what type of damage, or you can clarify that by stating that, yes, you do report the cause of/type of damage.


That means I would be able to tell the client how to treat or how to fix.

Only partially correct.

You could tell your clients "how to fix" as you put it.

You SHOULD NOT BE telling your clients "how to treat" as you are not a licensed pest control person, by you own statements.


I report because the training I took helps me to Identify .


BINGO! Think about what you just wrote ... "helps me to identify" ... THAT *IS* part of "pest control" is you would, at least in many states, including Florida, be required to be a licensed pest control operator or carry a (in Florida) WDO Identification Card showing the licensed pest control operator and company you are working under, and if you do not have a WDO ID card, they you are practicing pest control without a license.

No matter how you try to twist that around, that IS precisely what you are doing, if you are doing what your posts imply and that statement says.


which means I am certified and trained to I dentify. BY NACHI

WHICH MEANS NOTHING. Not whether done by ASHI, not whether done by NAHI, not whether done by INTERNACHI, not whether done by anyone or any organization other than those which teach you what you need to know AND ... AND YOU TAKE AND PASS the state required tests ... AND ... AND you work under a licensed pest control operator. At least that is how it is in Florida and in many other licensed states.


I went to The state testing site passed the test .Didnt get my lisc.

As I said above, passing the test MEANS NOTHING, by your own statement above, "Didnt get my lisc" MEANS YOU ARE PRACTICING PEST CONTROL WITHOUT A LICENSE.

There really is no other way to say that, Danny. In fact, you even said that yourself. "Didn't get my lisc."



because the extra E & O insurance they require to inspect and treat is rediculus .

The reason you DID NOT GET YOUR LICENSE, and how you feel about it, means nothing, all that matters is that you are NOT LICENSED, and you said that yourself.

What is it that you do not understand about that?


I dont want to treat just inspect for.

What you want to do and don't want to do does not matter, the same with the rest of your post.

What matters is only that YOU ARE NOT a licensed pest control person, and pest control includes "identification", at least in Florida and many other licensed states.

[Kevin Luce]

In the state of Ohio you have to be licsend to do pest inspections and to determine the amount of damage . but how ever as a home inspector we are to report the location and recommmend a further evaluation by a lics. pest inspector . As NACHI certified we are trained and tought to record our findings ,. I know for me when Im doing a inspection and I see termite damage I take a photo record where its at and try to determine how much damage . for my records . I report what i find and give suugestions on follow up or repairs . that covers my butt . as far as checking all out lets no . Some times I do when there is an open ground issue .
Here in Indiana, the classes that are required to be taken at Purdue University to become license clearly teaches us to keep it non-specific when it comes to reporting the location of damage and location of the wood destroying insects themselves. On the report it's written "... This is not a structural damage report." so determining the extent of the damage is not required to be reported on the WDI report.

The State of Indiana has separated inspection of WDI from inspection & treatment of WDI. So the report and training was designed for somebody that does not have to be very knowledgeable in construction and/or application.

Of course, I'm just talking about being a WDI inspector here in the State of Indiana only.

The last time I took classes at Purdue, they informed us that the % of complaints toward home inspectors that inspect for WDI compared to pest companies that inspect for WDI was very low. If it was me, I would at least call the Office of Indiana State Chemist at Purdue University and make them aware of your problem. The least they will do is record the complaint but they might be able to do more.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Looks like the long arm of the law is coming for me. If I see termite damage, I call it.........BUT I do recommend that my clients have a wood detroying insect inspection performed when I see evidence if they have not already ordered one to go along with my inspection.

I feel silly saying "damage noted that appears to possibly be the result of wood destroying insects", especially when there are mud tubes all over the damaged materials.

[Denny L West]

May be I should word it differant no matter what, I do know the differance between the critters . and I will allways report what i find . No matter what you think I should or shouldnt do. its my call anyway .To many peolpe get to tech. when it comes to reporting . Hey theres wood damage !( I say ) then client ask what Kind? (I say) I dont know call a pest inspector he might know Im just a home inspector and I dont have the lics. to tell you . even though I have the experiance . from first hand . I cant tell you cause I might go to jail . HA that funny . tell you what you stick to what you know and i will stick to what I know . and yes I can Identify because I have the training and the knowlage to . when its a termite I report it when its a beetle I report it . and I m not doing any thing wrong .That like seeing a crime and not reporting it because Im Not Lisc. so Ill keep my mouth shut . when I see a wire splice that is not in a junction box and coverd . I say it like it is . (that is a fire hazard and needs repaired .) Or should i say I dont know what that is I dont have lisc to be an electrician. so I cant say even though my certification as a home inspector had a complete course on Electricity. the dos and the donts . Have a good day Jerry . The Home Inspector from OHio

[Scott Patterson]

Ya know, I have always told folks just what I see. If I see Mold, I tell them that I found some mold; If I see termites and mud tubes, I tell them I found termites and that a PC contractor needs to be called; If I find a screwed up foundation, damaged truss or whatever, I tell them to call an engineer who is familiar with residental construction. Pretty dang simple if you ask me.

Denny, listen to what Jerry and others are saying. I would also take with a grain of salt the online training that you are getting through your organization. Some of their education is very good and some is marginal. Just because you have taken the online course does not make you knowledgeable in that subject, you still need experience and more eduction to reinforce the subject at hand.

[Denny L West]

I think you guys are not understanding what I m saying its simple. I report what I find and I* report how much damage has been done . I know the differance from experiance . just because I did nt get my lisc dose not mean I cant report what I know . I dont practice pest control what is pest control ? Control is the answer . I dont apply treatment I report where i saw and how much I saw . then I say this please contact a P I who is lisc. by the state to detrnmine the exact procedure for fixing the problem . then consult a strucuteral engineer for the proper repairs .to the structure , To clear up the lisc. issue The same test that I took for the state of ohio was the same test I took for NACHI only differance is That Nachi dose not teach us the application Of treatment.I didnt get my lisc was because I dont feel I need them to report my findings . I only need them to treat those findings . I dont want to pay extra for insureance just to treat termites or other wood destroying Insects . So I didnt get my ki lisc. but I am certified to know what they look like and what damages they can cause . As far as NACHI being a bad orginazation I do belive that the testing that ASHI AND NAHI provide are simular and cover everything that nachi covers . besisdes I do have class room training and hands on experiance .Its not jsut the online course its the state required course that I passed . Ididnt get the lisc cause I didnt want tompay more for insurance . there is that alittle better for you to understand . Ashi has a few courses that are mrginal as well. good DAY Gentlemen:) :) :D

[Scott Patterson]

I think you guys are not understanding what I m saying its simple. I report what I find and I* report how much damage has been done . I know the differance from experiance . just because I did nt get my lisc dose not mean I cant report what I know . I dont practice pest control what is pest control ? Control is the answer . I dont apply treatment I report where i saw and how much I saw . then I say this please contact a P I who is lisc. by the state to detrnmine the exact procedure for fixing the problem . then consult a strucuteral engineer for the proper repairs .to the structure.

That is good. But, it all depends on the license law for each profession. I know that In TN & MS, I can not tell my client how much of a structure is damaged by bugs. I can tell them that I found them or signs of them, I just can say how much they have eaten!


To clear up the lisc. issue The same test that I took for the state of ohio was the same test I took for NACHI only differance is That Nachi dose not teach us the application Of treatment.

You lost me on this one.... Are you saying that the Ohio PC exam is the same as the INACHI exam, except that INACHI does not go into the chemical application?


I didnt get my lisc was because I dont feel I need them to report my findings . I only need them to treat those findings . I dont want to pay extra for insureance just to treat termites or other wood destroying Insects . So I didnt get my ki lisc. but I am certified to know what they look like and what damages they can cause .

Do what? You might want to check with the State PC board on this one. They might have a differing opine. Who "Certifed" you and in what?


As far as NACHI being a bad organization I do belive that the testing that ASHI AND NAHI provide are similar and cover everything that nachi covers .

Nobody said anything about INACHI being a bad organization. As for their membership testing? What ASHI requires is the NHIE. NAHI requires their proctored CRI exam. INACHI requires a non proctored open book test that you take at home.


besisdes I do have class room training and hands on experiance .Its not jsut the online course its the state required course that I passed . Ididnt get the lisc cause I didnt want tompay more for insurance . there is that alittle better for you to understand . Ashi has a few courses that are mrginal as well. good DAY Gentlemen:) :) :D

Glad to hear that you took class room training. You can not beat in the seat learning, outside of hands on experience. Again, I don't know about the Ohio law for PC, but I would look into it just to make sure. As for ASHI having a few marginal courses? ASHI does not produce any educational courses, so they have none to be marginal.. You might want to rephrase that a little....

ASHI does have a large amount of education through their 105 or so chapters around the country and the also have 3 days of education at their annual InspectionWorld. I will agree with you that some of the sessions are marginal from time to time at IW and I'm sure at some chapters. But, this can be the case with any educational offering.

After a little more thought; ASHI does have some educational modules for their members. It is called Smart Track and it is a series of online education and testing that has been developed by Carson Dunlop for ASHI. It is a great tutorial for just about any level inspector.

[Jerry Peck]

I think you guys are not understanding what I m saying its simple.

Yes, it is simple.

According to what you have said, and repeated below, you did not get your license. Period.

That is what matters to the state.

Which licenses people for that pest control specialty for a reason.


I dont want to pay extra for insureance just to treat termites or other wood destroying Insects . So I didnt get my ki lisc. but I am certified to know what they look like and what damages they can cause .


You did not get your license. Okay, got that.

You did not get your license, but ... you are certified. Okay, I admit it, I do not get that.

You are either licensed, and therefore "certified", or ... or you are not licensed and therefore "not certified".

I think you need to check with your state licensing board and tell them what you do (pest control inspections and identification) and that you do not think their licensing applies to you. Listen to their answer.

Did you read and follow the other thread about termite problems in IN and the home inspector/termite inspector, and that the home inspector/termite inspector is going to be in big trouble and in deep doo-doo for doing what you say you are doing, except that he was working for a licensed company (still not sure if HE was licensed or not).

Not saying the following WILL happen, only that it COULD happen:

You inspect a house and report termites. The termite inspector inspects the house and reports termites. There is difference between YOU termite report and THE LICENSED termite inspector's report, but, hey, no big deal, the deal goes through.

Now the home owner rips the wall open and finds mucho termites and minimum wall remaining ... who do they call?

You or the termite inspector? I'm guessing BOTH, and the termite inspector calls the state for support and back up, and you call ... you have no one to call, and, in fact, the state now calls you to find out why you are performing pest control (pest inspections and identification) without being properly licensed.

Now, no one settles sufficiently for the client, so they take it to court, you the unlicensed pest control operator (that IS what you were acting as) and the licensed pest control operator are the DEFENDANTS.

You think, no problem, they will go after the licensed guy first ... WRONG!

The licensed guy will have the state behind him, while you ... well, you will be there all by yourself, and you will be the easy target, the judge will have no option but to find you at fault for acting as an unlicensed pest control operator, and, then will find the licensed guy for some stuff too, but, hey, he was licensed and has some laws specifically stating what he can do, is required to do, is not allowed to do, and is not required to do.

You, you will be there fully exposed and waiting for the judge to decide what limitations to put on you, chains, heavy reward, who knows, but you will have NOTHING saying what you are not allowed to do and do not have to do, other than the law saying you were not allowed to do ANY of what you did not.

All because you did not want to pay for extra insurance. :eek:

[Denny L West]

Jerry: why are you ,making a big deal out of this I am certified by Nachi for wdi i never said state cert. NACHI cert we study to know . Idid say I always tell my clients to have a further evaluation by a lisc Pest Inspector. its my duty to report what I find and I am cert through NACHI to know what they look like and how to detect them .Allot of times people here in ohio dont even bother with a pest inspection . so I give them a heads up when I see them and other times they set the appointments with their own pest inspector then i dont worry about it .Another thing reporting is not pest control. pest control is telling some one how to remidy the problem or fixing the problem Thats called control. so I dont remidy the problem let them know its there and let them choose . do You do home inspection ? Or are you just a consultant? part of our training is to be able to identify issues . and WDI is an issue we are taught to identify .do you know the differince between a powderpost beetle and a termite ? and if you do then you can identify .

[Jerry Peck]

Danny,

No one is "making a big deal out of it" or "attacking you for it" either, we are just trying to educate you to, first educate yourself with the states requirements, and if ... *IF* ... they are like many other licensed states (that is what I keep saying - contact your state, Scott said the same thing - contact your state) ...

..Everything else is to try to help educate you as to what could happen.

If you simply do not want to hear it and want to keep on keepin' on with your normal ways without contacting your state and clarifying what the requirements are ... THAT IS YOU DECISION ... all we are trying to do is forewarn you as to what the negative impact could be.

Want to be educated? Fine, we will try to help.

Don't want to be educated? Fine, nothing we can to do help.

YOUR CHOICE.

[John Kogel]

I tend to use "appears to be" termite activity, "appears to be" beetle...
I don't know, does this appear to be safe language? :confused:

[Darren Miller]

This is a standard macro I insert in all my WDI reports when pest damage is found. I also modify it for insertion of my HI report:

The infestation and/or damage depicted represent only that infestation and/or damage that was visible at the time of the inspection in the general area indicated. When evidence of wood destroying insects is found, it should be understood that some degree of damage including hidden damage might be present in the structure. Many buildings have hidden wood destroying insect infestation and/or damage that a competently performed wood destroying insect inspection may not disclose. Therefore, the decision to dismantle or remove ceilings, finished walls, carpets, etc. and to what extent dismantling is to be done, must be made by the involved parties. Needless to say, the cost and responsibility of restoring disturbed finished walls, ceiling, carpets etc. must be discussed by those parties. Reported signs of infestation in a building make this decision even more critical. Due to cryptobiotic or hidden mode of life of subterranean (the most common species) termites, they often do more damage in hidden areas than exposed areas. Their survival requires that they avoid sunlight and low moisture environments. It is important to understand that the inspector/inspection company will not make specific recommendations regarding opening walls, ceilings, etc, removal or carpet and/or dismantling of any kind.

Here's what I put in my report when I find the siding is buried in the ground (which is quite often):

[0001b]Siding is in contact with ground at ^Location^. You need to be aware wood rot & wood destroying pest infestation may be present behind the siding but cannot be seen. The only real way to determine if rot or wood destroying insects are present is by opening the walls (removing the exterior siding or the interior drywall). This is not part of our 'non-invasive' inspection.

[Denny L West]

Jerry I have checked with the state of Ohio when I took the exam. This is what was said . Since you areNACHI certified We are fimilar with their training on wdo Insects . and you should report what you find and if you know what they are report it and always recommend that they follow through with a lisc pest inspector from the state of ohio . as the other man said I dont want the call back after the fact . If its termites and I see a termite tube . I call it and if the floor joist is rotted the whole length of the home I call that as well ( Thats called structureal damage ) and Repairs are needed . Then I suggest a contractor to evaluate for proper repairs and cost of course after they have it inspected by a pest inspector for the state .That how i do it I appreciate the education tips .For I have done my research as well . N My moto is this report what you find be sincere to your clients and remember you work for them.:)

[Darren Miller]

Denny,

Just asking here; How in the World does NACHI 'certify' you in WDI?

Is it an online course and test?

When I became a Credentialed Wood Destroying Insect Inspector, it was a two day course with a test at the end. It wasn't easy, 80% of the students fail the first time. I'm not talking about just HI either, most of the students in my class worked for pest companies.

I'd like to know how NACHI certifies a WDI inspector.

[Kevin Luce]

Sam, I'm not sure if the home inspector is at fault or not since there are factors that we are not aware of but it sounds like you have a headache.

The first thing I would do (if you haven't already) is to talk to your home inspector about this situation. He might have information (pictures) of that area being blocked by stored items. It also sounds like the damage was not visible since you didn't noticed it until you pushed on the wall after you moved in (If I remember correctly from a different post). Even though not a good practice, that home/WDI inspector is not required to push or poke.

The State of Indiana also has a disclosure law where the seller has to inform you in writing of any defects they are aware of (in most cases). Do you think the sellers was aware of this problem? Did you receive those two disclosure pages?

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry I have checked with the state of Ohio when I took the exam.

Danny,

You said, and this is the most important part, so I'm not sure why you did not include it here, but:

"because im not lics."

"Didnt get my lisc."

And similar statements repeated several times.

Danny, it really does not matter that "checked with the state of Ohio when I took the exam", what matters is that "Didnt get my lisc."


This is what was said . Since you areNACHI certified We are fimilar with their training on wdo Insects . and you should report what you find and if you know what they are report it and always recommend that they follow through with a lisc pest inspector from the state of ohio .

Hard to follow your sentences the way you write, but, was the above an official statement?

What we are suggesting is that you contact the state agency which handles termite licensing and get - in writing - their official opinion ...

... for YOUR protection.

Or don't.

It is no skin off our backs when you get caught doing pest control without a license.

HOWEVER, ... IT DOES affect the profession when unlicensed people are performing unlicensed work where their state requires a license ... whether or not you think to, if the state requires a license, and if you want to do that work, and you want to be thought of as anything more than Joe Schmo the plumber crack guy ... if you want to be a professional, you will lose those attitudes.

[Denny L West]

To clear things up the complete certification of nachi Inspectors The wood destroying Insect training is a part of the online courses they provide and they are very detailed and precise . Along with roof electrical foundations plumbing heating and ac the whole nine yards we are generalist and report what we find there fore when I say certified I say NACHI certified and passed all required courses including wood destroying Insects . It is bid part of our training to know as musch as we can about everything . Plus with other training and courses . I believe thatr I can report my findings as such and state that I am Certified to do so . no more explaining needed you do your way and I will continue to do mine.God Bless have good day now go find something else to talk about .:mad:

[Denny L West]

Jerry here is the facts ,, I dont do pest controll I just report what I find .I know the differance between Termites and bettles . How the effect the wood .the whole nine yards .From experiance and training not just NACHI training but class room, and state . Doing pest control is inspecting and applying treatment .They both go to gether to be considerd pest control .I always repotrt my findings and expalin to my client that they need to do a follow up inspection a with a lisc pest inspector for treatment and repairs . And the part about what theysaid i can and can not do was told to me by the instructor who is lisc to teach and instruct . the problem with most people. They want more on the lisc and tech side that they seem to for get the ethical side . you work for your client and if you feel con=mfratable tellinhg them its termites then you do so if I didnt know what I was talking about I would just say I DOnT Know .so Jerry You never did answer my question Are you a home inspector ? if not then plsease nknock it off and and quit getting to tech on me .

[Denny L West]

Oh the missed spelled words are because im typing fast and I dont use spell check And no I dont do my reports this way.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry here is the facts ,, I dont do pest controll I just report what I find .

You do unlicensed pest control because part of pest control is identification of the pest and the damage.


so Jerry You never did answer my question Are you a home inspector ? if not then plsease nknock it off and and quit getting to tech on me .


I did not answer your question because, with the way your write, I did not even see your question in your posts.

Danny,

I am a retired home inspector, a retired pest control inspector, among other things, and, no, I will not quit trying to educate you as to what you should be doing when you are doing it wrong.

If you cannot take that, then you are probably in the wrong business, which it sounds like you are.

Home inspections need professional acting inspectors, otherwise, as Jim Port so aptly pointed out, the few drag down the rest in the eyes of the public.

Your posts indicate you are one of those few. Your choice, so be it.

[Scott Patterson]

So let me get this straight.... If INACHI offers an online course, and you take that course; then you are "Certifed" in that profession or trade? Kind of sounds like the old Sears and Roebuck mail order catalog.

[Denny L West]

I just say what I feel and thats me . as for doing pest control it takes both to be considerd pest control .I think you miss the point. I always refer my clients to get a lisc Pest inspector to do the legal documnetation and to get the facts . I will still continue to report what I find . and report the damage . because part of inspecting the structure is to point out areas that are damaged , rotted, sagging , bowing , ect ect ect even though some times its out of the scope of the inspection. and if you know what caused it you report it ( or at least I do )if you feel you have the knowlage to do so . and I do so .Have a good day Jerry and dont worry about me I do ok for my self and will continue to do so . we all dont need to be lisc. in every thing what is a lisc Its Certificate Of License With out the certificate,....... figure that one out . I was nenver a certified auto mechanic but Iran a very succesful auto repair business in texas for 13 years. until heatlh issues came ( back problems ) and the new technoligies were hard to keep up with . did construction , utilities work , landscaping , industerial manitenance lanscaping, Diagnostic and repair of various type Of equipment and never once had a lisc or a complaint. I get bored go off to do and learn something else . That who I am and proud of it .

[Denny L West]

Scott You no better than that even your Orginazation offers traiining in all areas . and they also teach you the basics of wdi insects . The certificate is every thing combind in the course. yopu have to pass at acertian level to get certified ,. About state Lisc . each org. has its courses designed for state testing and NACHI is accepted in alot Of states as a state testing exam. Or training . The state exams inmost case are simular if not the same as most Inspector training orgs out there . so to say Im certified is to say ImNACHI cert.which covers all that I had talked about . is that more percise for you . :rolleyes: :)

[Denny L West]

Scott again NACHI is bigger and growing and is getting reconizied every where as a leader in Home Inspection Training .need I say more . Just go to Home Inspector - InterNACHI: home inspection/inspector (http://www.nachi.org) and see for yourself .God Bless have a good day . Even dooctors and lawyers have some degree of on line training its the growing fad now and most univerisity"s offer that type of training as well . so what up with sears and robuck crap . I can build a house with a doit yoour self book .and I dont need a lisc. to build it just a permitt. just thought I would put that in there .HA HA Ha :D

[Rick Bunzel]

NACHO's online training is just another for profit scheme Nick has been working on. You do have to give him credit. If he can't make money in one area he just moves to another.

[Denny L West]

I guess we can all agree On this My org.is better than yours . right it dose not matter who or what you blong to its what you do with your training that counts . And NACHI is one of the biggest and the best.. Thats all folks >:)

[Jerry Peck]

I guess we can all agree On this My org.is better than yours . right it dose not matter who or what you blong to its what you do with your training that counts . And NACHI is one of the biggest and the best.. Thats all folks >:)


Danny,

Not sure why you are getting all defensive about the organization you belong to, and why you felt touting it in the first place, because I keep referring to what the state requires, what the state recognizes, and state licensing - nothing in there about any organization ... other than why you kept throwing in there ... no organization matters, only what the state requires and allows matters.

Not sure why you do not understand that.

[Denny L West]

Scott And others keeps touting the orgs . THEY are always negitive about NACHI I have checked with the state . and there is nothing in the regulations stating I cant inspect for pest . Or that I cant report my findings . I just cant tell them what to do about it other than call a lisc pest inspector . that dose not mean I cant report my findings include the photos and point that out to the client. and I m done with this jerry find something else to do will you .:mad:

[Jerry Peck]

I just cant tell them what to do about it other than call a lisc pest inspector . that dose not mean I cant report my findings include the photos and point that out to the client.


Denny,

You can quit finding the information out if you want to, however, I don't know why you did not do what I just did - I sent off an e-mail to find out what the definition of "pest control" is in Ohio.

*IF* it includes, as Florida does, "the identification of or inspection for", then you are performing pest control.

*IF* it excludes "the identification of or inspection for", and only includes "the application of" pesticides, then you are not performing pest control by Ohio's definition of "pest control".

I will post the response I get back.

[Denny L West]

Yes I did got all that as well . Still dose not tell me as a home inspector that I cant report my findings of the true condition of the home that includes pest, its the true condition at the time of inspection. Enough allready you cant convince me other wise to not disclose my findings . I just dont agree with you so lets leave it at that Ok stop .........:)

[Jerry Peck]

Yes I did got all that as well . Still dose not tell me as a home inspector that I cant report my findings of the true condition of the home that includes pest, its the true condition at the time of inspection. Enough allready you cant convince me other wise to not disclose my findings . I just dont agree with you so lets leave it at that Ok stop .........:)


Denny,

Like I said, you can stop any time you want to. Don't know why you keep posting if you want to stop.

And, like I said, I will post the response to my e-mail here, if you don't want to read it, don't. But it would be something which I would think you would want to read. Heck, it may even vindicate you (not your actions but what you do).

[Denny L West]

Dose not matter . I do what I do because I do it no state or man can tell me differant .done

[Scott Patterson]

Scott You no better than that even your Orginazation offers traiining in all areas . and they also teach you the basics of wdi insects . The certificate is every thing combind in the course. yopu have to pass at acertian level to get certified ,. About state Lisc . each org. has its courses designed for state testing and NACHI is accepted in alot Of states as a state testing exam. Or training . The state exams inmost case are simular if not the same as most Inspector training orgs out there . so to say Im certified is to say ImNACHI cert.which covers all that I had talked about . is that more percise for you . :rolleyes: :)

Denny, please show me where ASHI teaches basics on WDI. The do have ASHI at home; this is an at home series of books that one can use to train. It is produced by Carson Dunlop for ASHI.

As for the INACHI exam.. It is accepted in only one state as that states licensing exam, and that state is North Dakota. ND also accepts the NHIE, and NAHI's exam. The NHIE is used by 23 states as their only licensing exam. The INACHI exam and the NAHI exam is not accepted in any state as their only licensing exam.

[Rick Hurst]

Dose not matter . I do what I do because I do it no state or man can tell me differant .done


More reasons for licensing and maybe a spelling exam.:D ;)

[Scott Patterson]

More reasons for licensing and maybe a spelling exam.:D ;)

Yep, or a good argument for charter schools! :D

[Denny L West]

We all have the basics in training on every subject and we all have a section cuncerning wdi . when we inspect homes its our duty to look for and it structurre when we see wood rot thenits are duty to report that and well . durying my traing wether it was Nachi Or class room we are taught to decern what causeis a problem when I see termite tubes I dont say dry rot . and nachi has alot more states excepting the training for the state lisc . as Nick is constantly researching and presenting Nachi courses its just a matter of time when alot more states pick up and use these courses . and are telling me that during your training as a home inspector ASHI did not go over the WDI Identification with you . and how to look for them . wow every part of a home is discussed with NACHI including pest and then we are tested on it . maybe I have one up on you /. no matter when I inspect a home or property I include my findings On everything . reporting WDI is included in the whole package as an inspector . If not then how canwe tell our clients to seek out and have something inspected by a pest inspector if we ar not to do pest inspections. I know for me if i leave that out of a p report and a client buys the home Im responceible for that report . especialy when I use digital photos to do my reports . report what you find . is what we are taught . I dont know that much about ASHI because I didnt like the schooling format so I decided to go with NACHI because that suited my time and needs and I willstand up and defend them no matter what you or opthers have to say . Good luck God Bless and have a good life

[Rick Hurst]

Oh my!

[Jerry Peck]

Dose not matter . I do what I do because I do it no state or man can tell me differant .done


Oh, the state CAN tell you differently, and they CAN fine you for violating licensing requirements.

Whether or not the state *will* is vastly different than *CAN*.

Your attitude, and that of other inspectors like yourself, kills the professionalism for this profession.

[Scott Patterson]

We all have the basics in training on every subject and we all have a section cuncerning wdi . when we inspect homes its our duty to look for and it structurre when we see wood rot thenits are duty to report that and well . durying my traing wether it was Nachi Or class room we are taught to decern what causeis a problem when I see termite tubes I dont say dry rot . and nachi has alot more states excepting the training for the state lisc . as Nick is constantly researching and presenting Nachi courses its just a matter of time when alot more states pick up and use these courses . and are telling me that during your training as a home inspector ASHI did not go over the WDI Identification with you . and how to look for them .

Dude! Ya drank too much Kool Aid!

First off ASHI did not train me! ASHI is not or was never in the business to train new home inspectors. I received my training from a couple of guys in Oceanside CA, Kevin O'Malley and Mike Casey back in 1993. 2 weeks of classroom and real in the field inspections. This was my formal training.



I dont know that much about ASHI because I didnt like the schooling format so I decided to go with NACHI because that suited my time and needs and I willstand up and defend them no matter what you or opthers have to say . Good luck God Bless and have a good life

The only School ASHI has is what they call ASHI at Home. A very intense and thorough study at home series. It cost about the same as going to a 2 week school.

Denny, I wish you the best success. With 450 inspections under your belt (according to your AR listing) you should never stop learning, especially from others. Most of us that are active on this board and others do so without any reward other than knowing that we might have helped another inspector to learn something. This will be my last post on this as frankly your writing style give me a headache. ;)

[Billy Stephens]

Dude! Ya drank too much Kool Aid!


Denny, I wish you the best success

you should never stop learning,
.

Such as How To use Spell check. :rolleyes:
.

[Denny L West]

Sorry for all the garbled words cant seem to type slow and stop to proof read. spell check wont work for me on this site for some reason .,.I wont be giving any more advice here on this site and will keep my opinions to my self and just read what is being takled about from now on .

[Billy Stephens]

spell check wont work for me on this site for some reason .
.
Try Here http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/h-e-l-p/183-time-stamp-spell-check.html comment#4
.

[Ted Menelly]

Sorry for all the garbled words cant seem to type slow and stop to proof read. spell check wont work for me on this site for some reason .,.I wont be giving any more advice here on this site and will keep my opinions to my self and just read what is being takled about from now on .


Don't stop giving advise and or opinions. Why would you want to do that. You axually don't have to be right or wrong about anything. An opinion is like butt holes and everyone has one. Many times many people don't give the greatest advise or opinion (who, me ?).

Read the link the butt hole, I mean Billy, gave you. You need the advanced set up to have spell check and smiley faces and such in use.

[Darren Miller]

Denny;

If you would be so kind sir as to show us one of your inspection reports, hopefully one when you did find some type of wood destroying insect problem.

You can find one of my reports on my web-site if you so wish; go to the reports page and follow the inspections.

Please sir, show us yours.

Thanks

[Denny L West]

If you send me your email add I will attache a photo and send back to you I will not send the whole report tophomeinsp@verizon.net

[Kevin Luce]

Denny, I have nothing against you in anyway but you might want to let this thread alone. It is a complete thread drift that has gone down the toilet. They have written their 2 cents as you have so lets not keep beating a dead horse.

Note: Darren is going to find errors in your report as I found errors in his example report and likely you both would find errors in my reports.

Just my 2 cents.

[Denny L West]

Im not going to send him a report just a couple of photos that he can see . Thanks for the input . I know about how other inspectors and how they beat others reports apart I deal with that all the time . somebody always has to prove they are better than others . I have another inspector in my area that is always telling his clients or prospects not to call me cause His Term is I dont report everything. I only met the man once and hes only been in busines 1 1/2 . and Hes NACHI cert to boot. Me I have 15 years construction 3 1/2 years business and at the moment a little over 500 inspections . so I do believe that I can and will continue to florish . I also want to apoligize to everyone for yesterday . I had a bad reaction to my anti depession meds . and it put me in a very bad negitive mood . Doc is going to cut the dose or try something else . So I Apoligize for my behavior. I was wrong in the way I put My thoughts and my feelings . didnt mean to offend any one we all are here to educate and help each other . God Bless

[Scott Patterson]

Denny, you are a good guy. Don't let others ruffle your feathers or get under your skin. You will find that it is best to leave the association stuff at your door, and not to brag about your qualifications, somebody will always have more advanced ones!

Keep in mind that this board is a public board and everything that you post is searchable by Google and just about any other search engine.

A word of advice; Add a few paragraphs to your post; download the Google spell check,it works on any Internet site and just sits on the tool bar. You will find that inspectors are critical of how folks write the post on this board and on other boards. Why? Well, most of the time it is just to reinforce how important it is to convey your message properly. If you get into the habit of doing it with everything your write, then when it comes to your reports it will just be natural.

I'm on of the worst in my writing skills, I tend to write just like I talk. Simple and to the point; but then that is also a good style for an inspector to use.

Best, and don't be a stranger.

[Denny L West]

Thanks Scott thanks for being understanding. I just have those days when everything errks me . I will keep the aasoc stuff out and just concentrate On helping other with a psositive responce . Have a good day God Bless

[Darren Miller]

Hey, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here. I love to look at other reports to learn and see if I can 'steal' anything.

Kevin, that's an actual report that I told the buyers to run from. Yes, I do on occasion tell people NOT to purchase a house; that's what they pay me for.
So, if you see errors, please let me know (beside the 'e' missing in the word one) either here or in an e-mail .

[Denny L West]

Darren Here in ohio we dont dare tell the client to buy or not to buy . I got introuble for that once When they ask me that question I just Kindly say Set down go over the report and my findings and get with your Agent and make your choice from the report and Not of my opinion . Thats why I include the photos so they can see the whole picture and decide from there . as inspectors we are only being paid to disclose what we found during Our inspection and not on Our feelings if the home is worth it or not.Otherwise Iwould go into apraisal services.

[Jerry Peck]

Yes, I do on occasion tell people NOT to purchase a house; that's what they pay me for.


Glad I am not the only one who thinks that way.

The client is, after all, paying for what we all routinely say we give ... "our professional opinion".

If you have not developed your professional opinion to that answer by the time you are through with the inspection, if not long before than, you must not have been paying attention to you inspecting and reporting, and, if *YOU* cannot come up with that answer, how on earth do you expect *YOUR CLIENT* to come up with that answer after reading your report?

Sometimes the answer is not to run, but to walk slowly and look back, making sure that is what you want, other times the answer is not to run, but t "run fast", other times, the answer is 'the house is not that bad'.

Yes, some will say that it all depends on what the clients intentions are, and the price they are paying versus the market, and the price they are paying versus the repair cost, and the price they are paying versus their budget, however, *IF YOU* the home inspector cannot come up with an answer to that question based on your knowledge and what you found ... how on earth do you expect to be able to relay your knowledge and findings to your client where they can come up with that answer with second hand information?

I have said I would run, only to have my clients say, yeah, me to, but ... and then they go into the reasons for the "but" ... THEIR DECISION, "but" ... the home inspector should be able to form an answer to that question and relay it to their client in a way in which their client can use it.

I've inspected homes where I arrived at that answer before getting out of the van, only to confirm that it was even worse than I envisioned. I've even offered to stop the inspection and reduce the fee only to have my client say 'No, I know what you are saying and I expected as much, but I want you to document everything.' - to which I replied 'Okay, just making sure and offering.'

[Denny L West]

Let me explain . first of all here in Ohio the Agents get really upset over that and its unethical to come out and say it directly . however when they get the report and see my repair section esp.when a home is in really bad shape and they see all the circles and comments . it usually dose not take much to convince them .So Im not saying I never, Im just saying you have to watch out about how you say it for the legal issues . thats all . i would never ever with hold the information from my client . I just have to let them make that choice . I came out once and told a client that there was so much WDI damage that the whole flooring system and to the floor supports need repaired . and they commented "can we fix that ourselves we really need this house ." Nothing I could have said would have changed that . they had their mind set. sometimes you just never know how people view the reports Red Flgs everywhere its still their choice.

[Ed Snedaker]

"I am certified to know what they look like and what damages they can cause"

If you are reporting on WDI in the state of Ohio, you must be certified by the state Department of Agriculture, not INACHI. INACHI does not have juisdiction and you are operating illegally, and subject to legal action by the state.

[Darren Miller]

Jerry,

I inspect the exterior first then the roof. If I determine the roof is shot, I will always ask my client this "if you have to put a new roof on this house, is that a deal breaker?"

If they say Yes, I then tell them the bad news and offer to stop the inspection right there. Some have taken me up on the offer, most have not.

The house in the example report was being purchased by newlyweds. The husband told me he's not mechanically inclined and there was no money left to hire tradesman. Yes, I told them to run, if not the house would own them.

A month later I inspected a nice condo that was less expensive.

[Jerry Peck]

Let me explain . first of all here in Ohio the Agents get really upset over that

Yeah, the agents in Florida get really upset over that too ... so what's your point? You are working for the agents or your clients?


and its unethical to come out and say it directly.

No, just the opposite. If you feel that is the case, it is unethical to hide that information from your client.


I came out once and told a client that there was so much WDI damage that thewhole floring system to the floor supports need repaired . ther comment was .can we fix that ourselves we really need this house . Nothing I could have said would have changed that . they had their mind set. sometimes you just never know how people view the reports Red Flgs everywhere its still thier choice.

Yep, and telling them that, in your professional opinion, the house is ready to fall down on itself because of the termite damage would not have changed their mind either, but you would have told them the truth in your professional opinion.

I have, on several occasions, used the term "until you can see the blue sky above", such as 'remove the shingles as they are shot, remove the roof sheathing as it is eaten up by termites, remove the roof structure as it is eaten up by termites, remove the second floor as all that wood is eaten up by termites, remove everything until you can see the blue sky above from inside, and, while you are at it, remove the walls so you can remove and repair the foundation', their question? "Can we do the work ourselves while we live there?"

Say what? Were you NOT listening to what I just read from the report?

After more explanations and them asking that same basic question 'We plan on living there while doing the work.', I finally said something like 'No problem *as long as Miami Beach does not have a problem with you putting up a tent* in the middle of the slab and living there while you do the work.'

You are correct in that, some people do not care, others 'just do not get it', and others have already planned on that work, nonetheless, though, as the professional, you should have your professional opinion on the answer to that question.

It is up to your clients to act on that information, ... or not. But they CANNOT act on that information if that information is withheld from them.

[Denny L West]

Jerry I do work for the client and my reports are very detailed when comes to pointing things out . and yes if I feel that the home is a plie Of junk I will say so . We can not as inspectors tell some one how to buy or fix we can only report are findings give them our opinion and let them decide . The standard of practice and the code of ethics . is what I adhear to . and live by. Thanks for your input.

[Denny L West]

Dear ED: I dont do WDI inspections I do home inspections And I report the condition of the home and everything in it . and if I see termites And termite tubes it is my job as a home inspector to report ( MY FINDINGS ) as I see them . How ever during my home inspection I am trained to report my findings . Im not lisc. for mold but I have to report it .any thing that poses a hazard and strutueral ,safety , health, has to be reported . Then its my duty as an inspector to say this while inspecting I came a cross wood damage in the crawlspace and noticed Termite tubes I strongly recommend you have WDI inspection to determine its true condtion and treatment. Then I gop over that are to see how much damage has been done with photos so that they know how much work wiollbe involved . I am not allowed to use a state WDI form because i am not lisc. how ever my reports are set up for my inspection iinformation for defects and a rotted tremite infested piece of wood is a defct. I really believ you guys are taking this a wee bit to serious . What do Other inspectors do when they are inspecting and they come across WDI ivestation either way you have to report your findings

[Jerry Peck]

If you are reporting on WDI in the state of Ohio, you must be certified by the state Department of Agriculture, not INACHI. INACHI does not have juisdiction and you are operating illegally, and subject to legal action by the state.


Ed,

Do you have a link to the Ohio law for pest control?

I've e-mailed them to find out what the legal definition of "pest control" is and whether or not licensing is required for "the identification or inspecting for" termites, etc., or only for "the application of" pesticides, but have not as yet received an answer back.

[Denny L West]

Jerry I think you are missing the point . I do home inspections and report the true condition of the home . that includes what ever I find doing a pest inspection takes a complete differant type of ( A one page Form ) The part I think everyone is missing is this . I always tell the client to get a state s certified pest inspection done for the true condition and treatmen then they can know if its past present, I do know my limits and I abide by that this is ohio not florida . as far as the ohio pestinspector I dont take any work from them I always recommend my clients to them. and beside depending on the bank and lenders if they don request a pest inspection most people wont even bother. even if I referr them to one. thsi willbe my last post on this subject you all have a good day . my motto report what I find ........

[Kevin Luce]

I stopped reading each post and just skimmed through it so I likely missed something.

I also don't inform my clients if I think they should buy the house or not. At the end of each inspection, I do go over the general condition of the house. For example, I informed my clients at today's job that the house is in good condition with some minor repairs and updating to do. I had a house last year where I told them that there was some major issues that was already talked about and that I recommend getting estimates before purchasing the house to get a better understanding on the cost and time frame for repairs. I just don't think it's our job to tell people what they should do when it comes to buying a house since there are too many factors that I don't know about.

Don't get me wrong, if somebody want to inform their client on whether to buy the house or not is up to that inspector. The buyers are adults and can take it or leave it when it comes to the information we provide them.

Side note: I'm trying out Mozilla firefox and it nice. The spell check as I type is something I didn't have when I was using SBCglobal/AT&T. I don't like that the person that comes up on my website is a white box.

[Denny L West]

Glad you agree Kevin Hear in Ohio and By our standards of Practice (NACHI )and code of ethics we are not to tell our clients to buy or not to buy due to the legal lawsuits we can get into ,. and I agree if some one else wants to do it differently than thats their bus. for me and my business its whats ethical and right . Report what you find and leave the choice to buy to the buyer. How do you feel about report WDI insects even though some isnt lisc. ? as long as they recommend a pest inspection be done by a lisc pest inspector . how does your state lics laws feel on that .

[Kevin Luce]

I don't know what your state requirements are but in the State of Indiana, we must be licensed through the Office of Indiana State Chemist (OISC).

Becoming a WDI Inspector (http://www.isco.purdue.edu/pesticide/how_do_i_wdpi2.html)

"Any business that makes fore hire inspections and reports to determine infestations of wood destroying pests and is not already licensed in Category 7b (wood destroying organism pest control) must obtain a WDI business license from the Office of Indiana State Chemist (OISC)."

Becoming state licensed to do WDI is simple and cheap in this state so I am licensed just to inspect.

[Denny L West]

Kevin I understand the lisc.by state to report WDI on a speacial report thats state regulated . but as a home inspector with your own regular reporting . is it wrong for an Home inspector to report his findings on his report just as he is dioing his inspection. I m there doing a home inspection as hired to do . and my job is to report what I find . would nt that be considered part of the report . then thats where I would tell my clients to hire a lsic.pest inspector to do a complete pest inspection to determine the treatment And damage . I was talking with a local inspector who is lisc for WDI for ohio and he stated that as londg as Im not using the state mandated report . Im not doing a pest inspection I am doing a home inspection . and I should just keep reporting what I find .

[Jerry Peck]

Denny,

This is the question I sent to the Ohio Department of Agriculture:

I have been asked a question about pest control in Ohio and to best answer that question, I need to know what the legal definition of “pest control” is in Ohio.

I know that in Florida, and some other states, the definition of “pest control” includes “the identification of or inspection for” pests, while other states may just regulate “the application of” pesticides.

What does pest control mean in Ohio?

Does a person require a license to perform the identification of or inspection for pests, such as termites, etc.? Or, does pest control in Ohio just cover and license those who apply pesticides?

This is the response I received back from the Ohio Department of Agriculture, Pesticide & Fertilizer Enforcement Supervisor: (red text is mine for highlighting)

Pest Control is not defined in Ohio.

If someone is applying pesticides for hire, they need to be licensed through our Department. If they are conducting Wood Destroying Insect Inspections for real estate transactions, they need to be licensed through our Department. If they are just conducting inspections to determine if a pest is present or not, and it is not a Wood Destroying Insect Inspection for a real estate transaction, then no license is needed from our Department to do that.

Please call if you need additional clarification.

Now, I did not fully understand the above stating that: a) one would need to be licensed if they were doing WDI inspection, b) but would not need to be licensed if they were doing a WDI inspection ... sort of depending on how it was arranged and done, so ... to clarify I contacted him again with clarifications and this is his response: (red text is mine for highlighting)


It appears that the person may need to obtain licensure from our Department and would need to use the NPMA-33 form to report evidence of WDI’s found to his clients.

Please review this definition as it is found in Ohio Administrative Code 901:5-11-01(N)(12)
“Wood-destroying insect diagnostic inspection” means the examination of a structure at the request of any party involved in a contemplated real estate transaction to determine if wood destroying insects are present in the structure, if there is evidence they either are or have been present in the structure, or the presence of any visible damage to the structure caused by wood-destroying insects and the generation of a written report of the findings of the examination.

If this is what he is doing, then he would be required to obtain licensure through our Department as a Comemrcial Applicator and a Pesticide Application Business, and would be required to utilize the NPMA-33 form in accordance with OAC 901:5-11-13 to do this.

The only option without licensure, would be to tell his clients that based on the visible evidence found during his home inspection, they need to hire a licensed Wood Destroying Insect Inspection. Again, he could not put what the evidence was that he found in writing, without licensure.

His best bet would be to get licensed, charge the extra fee for the WDI inspection, and fill out the NPMA-33 form on each inspection in conjunction with his total home inspection report.

Again, it makes no difference whether or not he is using the NPMA-33 form. If he is generating a written report about what the WDI evidence was that he found, then he needs to be licensed through us to do so, and then he will be required to use the NPMA-33 form.

Denny, that's not from any of us, that is directly from YOUR state's licensing department. I am just passing the information along as I told Jim I would.

[Denny L West]

Jerry ;;;;;as it states at the request of . My clients no that I am not a lisce pest inspector and I tell them that when they hire me and I tell them they will need to get a pest inspection done . my reports are not about pest inspections they are about the true condition of the home being inspected . and the condition there of . My reports are as is condition of every aspect of the home . when I m in a crawlspace or basement and I see wood rot I need to determine if its wdi, or water, or dry rot so that I can make the proper detrmination On what they need to do next If its WDI I state this evidence of wood destroying insects past or present Undetrmined an take photos because for instance . I found eveidenc and reported that findings they buy the home with out a pest inspection they cant come back on me and sya why didnt you tell me . Thats why I recommend a follow up inspectin with a WDI LIsc inspector for proper repairs and treatment. and if the client ask me what type Off the record I usually tell them if I Know l and when you see Tremite tubes I tell them so . and often in a report when Im pointing out a differant problem most people will ask whats that hanging down from the floor joist , how would you answer that .Cob Webs . If the state of ohio wants to see a report they can ask for one . They will see im just doing my job and working for my clients and giving them the information they need to make the choices they need . dont let this bother you none Its not effecting you and it is not breaking any laws . Im just doing my job and putting my two cents in and dont care what you think . the state dose not know the conversation we are haveing and did not hear my side only yours in which you are being a butt about .

[Denny L West]

Jerry this is what this is stating as you printed from the state .(If They are conducting inspection to determine if a pest is present or not ,and it is not a wood destroying insect inspection for a realestate transaction , then no license is needed from a our dept. to do that.) My reports no where states wood destroying insect inspections . they state complete home inspections for the general over all condition of the home or property . My signed inspection agreement even states that they are required to have a pest inspection done by a license pest inspector. so Im not doing any thing wrong because of what has just been stated by the state .

[Jerry Peck]

Denny,

You do not want to read what you do not want to hear ...

That SPECIFICALLY states that you may "TELL" them and you do not need to be licensed, but ...

If you "PUT IT IN WRITING" you DO NEED to be licensed ... and you DO NEED to use their form.

I do not know how much clearer it can be stated.

Keep treading water at your own risk.

I have relayed to you what the requirements are, you do as you will with that knowledge, ignoring it is one option, if you so chose.

[Denny L West]

We are to report matreial defects . and that as i see it is a material defect . Alot of what I do is in photos and I cant leave photos out . Summary letters , A place to write recommendations such as a further evalluation of a licensed Pest isnepctor or is needed then see attched photos section . That is not a pest inspection report that is a condition report. I know my rights and Im reading the same thing you are . I will continue doing my reports the way I see fit I work for my self and my clients not for you . Thanks for your Ino put and concern just dose not fit with me and I have that right to accept or not Jerry I dont accept your opinion at all /Thanks . have a good life . and now no more on the subject iif its not directed to you.

[Jerry Peck]

and now no more on the subject iif its not directed to you.


Because you do not want to keep discussing what is required?

Sorry old chap, but you can either keep posting or stop posting, that is your choice.

It is not, however, your call to tell me whether to stop posting or not.

Besides, as I said, and you did not read, or did not care to read, or did not want to read, that was not *my* opinion, that came directly from *your* state's enforcement supervisor.

[Jerry Peck]

You have stated that you put your finding about pest and pest damage "in writing" "in your report"


so Im not doing any thing wrong because of what has just been stated by the state .

But you are doing something wrong - did you not read what he said?



It appears that the person may need to obtain licensure from our Department and would need to use the NPMA-33 form to report evidence of WDI’s found to his clients.


The only option without licensure, would be to tell his clients that based on the visible evidence found during his home inspection, they need to hire a licensed Wood Destroying Insect Inspection. Again, he could not put what the evidence was that he found in writing, without licensure.


His best bet would be to get licensed, charge the extra fee for the WDI inspection, and fill out the NPMA-33 form on each inspection in conjunction with his total home inspection report.

Again, it makes no difference whether or not he is using the NPMA-33 form. If he is generating a written report about what the WDI evidence was that he found, then he needs to be licensed through us to do so, and then he will be required to use the NPMA-33 form.

[Denny L West]

Jerry You are just to much I dont do Pest Inspections Only Home inspections And I report my findings period. I have already discussed this with the state of Ohio and get a different point veiw from them than you do . . and they have not found any thing wrong with my reports Concentrate On your state issues and leave Ohio out of it Thanks

[Jerry Peck]

leave Ohio out of it Thanks


Denny,

Touch feely now aren't we ...

You brought up Ohio, the topic was raised, the topic will be completed when the topic is completed.

Just because it did not go in the direction you hoped it would does not mean you now get to stop the topic.

I would suggest that you stop posting as, with each post, you dig yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.

I imagine you will ignore the above and post again, digging your hole even deeper, so be it.

[Denny L West]

It has gone my way. I dont agree with you and I have different facts .Ill go with what I have thanks .

[Denny L West]

good bye good day

[Jerry Peck]

Toodle doo.

If Ohio is like Florida, they came around and made yearly inspections of pest control operators and what they keep and how they keep it, their practices, etc., sometimes every two years, but they tried to check in on everyone each year.

When people take the test and do not become licensed, they would also check up and follow through as to why not, don't know if they do that in Ohio either.

[Mike Schulz]

Denny you stole my ride. USA is to small for the both of us. Get rid of it I had mine first. :D