Two overflow holes on shower base

[Daniel Leung]

Just saw two overflow holes on a fiberglass shower base in a brand new townhouse (the attached photos shown one hole only, the second one near the right hand side of shower door).

Who has a cross-sectional diagram showing how it works?
I run the water test on the sink overflow, can I do the test run on this shower overflow?

Thank you for any input!

[Jerry Peck]

I run the water test on the sink overflow, can I do the test run on this shower overflow?


You could lay one of those 5" round flat tub drains over the drain, or, as I used to carry with me, go by one of the Big Box stores and have them cut off 12" to 18" of shower pan liner, then cut that into halves or thirds and make your own super duper size drain cover.

Then let the water run and see where it comes out. :D

[Rick Hurst]

My understanding is those are not overflows but are weep holes "in case" moisture enters behind the tiles.

Don't think I'd go filling the pan up with water beyond those.

Many people here think the builder forgot to caulk those up.

rick

[Jerry Peck]

My understanding is those are not overflows but are weep holes "in case" moisture enters behind the tiles.

If that is the case, it is a dumb design as those are lower than the overflow rim.

Holes for that purpose could have been, should have been, made above the overflow rim.

[Rick Hurst]

I run the water test on the sink overflow, can I do the test run on this shower overflow?

Thank you for any input!

Daniel,

If your going to test overflows, you want to make sure you have a really nice wet-vac on the truck. Many HI's do not test them as your probably going to create a mess. Sure, you can explain that it "failed under test", but you still have the water damages to possibly deal with.

For example, I occasionally see bollards in garages in front of water heaters but I do not test them by crashing my truck into them to see if they are functional.

To each his own.

Rick

[Daniel Leung]

Thank you for the good guess, the builder told me that is an overflow. However, I didn't see the channel in the holes, so no water test was made.

If it is a weep hole, why it is by the shower door. In case of water penetration, I believe the moisture damage area should be at the corners. Therefore, the best location is the corners.

I think this is a funny design! Any plumbing experts offer helps or show us a diagram?

[Jerry Peck]

If your going to test overflows, you want to make sure you have a really nice wet-vac on the truck.

I always filled things with water which are designed to be filled with water. If the design causes/allows water to leak out, ... 'Hey, you over there, you have a leak here.' ... and I went on to my next thing.

Cleaning up water was not something I was in charge of. :)

Finding when water leaked out was. :D


For example, I occasionally see bollards in garages in front of water heaters but I do not test them by crashing my truck into them to see if they are functional.

Don't tell me I was the only one who tested them? :eek: :D

Of course, though, my test was not with my van, too high to get that sucker into the garage. :cool:

[Rick Hurst]

Daniel,

The weep holes are not going to drain water out the shower pan door, c'mon.

They are sloped towards the shower pan floor.

If a person has water backing up into those "holes", they have a drain issue anyway. Anyone that stands 3-4inches in water in a shower usually knows they have a problem.

Maybe not with some of these folks.:D

rick

[Jim Luttrall]

There is a flange for tile taller than those weeps. Just like Rick mentioned, they need to be left open to allow any water to drain just like brick weeps. That way the water drains back into the pan rather than running out on the floor.
http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/images/productImages/amstd/large/9599.jpg

[Rick Hurst]

Thank you Jim.:D

Rick

[Jerry Peck]

There is a flange for tile taller than those weeps.


Jim,

That photo looks just like the photos/drawings I keep finding, and none of them (not even yours that I could see) have any weep holes.

Yes, *they should* weep back into the pan, but the one shown in Daniel's photo seems to show an unfinished back to the hole, and I would suspect, and expect, to find that finished if it were intentionally designed to be left open (which I am sure it is, but for what purpose?).

Daniel,

Do you know the manufacturer's name?

[Jim Luttrall]

Jerry, I think what you are seeing in the OP photo is a shadow, but I agree it "looks" open to the back.
I see these installed in production homes on a daily basis around here just like these pictured here and TRUST ME, these are NOT overflows and should not be tested!
Sorry about the picture I posted, the depressions are barely visible but are there if you look closely (squint a little- it helps:D ).
If you choose to test a one piece pan like this, make sure you have the water vac on hand. Rick claims to have a collection on hand... he will probably make you a deal.;)

[A.D. Miller]

Jerry, I think what you are seeing in the OP photo is a shadow, but I agree it "looks" open to the back.
I see these installed in production homes on a daily basis around here just like these pictured here and TRUST ME, these are NOT overflows and should not be tested!
Sorry about the picture I posted, the depressions are barely visible but are there if you look closely (squint a little- it helps:D ).
If you choose to test a one piece pan like this, make sure you have the water vac on hand. Rick claims to have a collection on hand... he will probably make you a deal.;)

Jim: The flanges are called "weep flanges" and the weep holes are referred to by manufacturers as "valleys".

From Lasko:

If ceramic tile is used as a wall covering, the intersection of materials (tile to pan) should be porous to allow water to escape. Leaving the
valley detail on the pan clear of all materials will allow water to escape in pan draining area. [See Diagram 3: Detail A and B] Refer to
applicable building codes for proper finishing of other trades.

[A.D. Miller]

Here is another one from Jacuzzi:

[Jerry Peck]

Aaron,

Yeah, I found those too, but NEITHER ONE shows the depression shown in the original post's photo.

I searched all over the internet and could not find one like that.

Jim said they are installed all over in his area in production houses, maybe Jim can steal a look-see at one and get the manufacturer's name, and maybe even the installation instructions. ;)

[Daniel Leung]

Thank you Jim and A.D., that is the photo and information I want to know. However, in this case, the flange seems trimmed down at the hole (I use camera flash for the photo, so the black colour stuff in the hole is not shadow).

For water test on sink overflow, I found many leaking cases from channel, washer or drain pipe. When the system is under the maximum approx. 6 inches waterhead in sink, it is quite easy to proof leaking or not. Please don't walk away from the bathroom with a water-running faucet, I always watch it and have my own towel in hand.

I have no problem with the house owner or listing realtor if I ask for a water test on sink and jacuzzi. When I water test the jacuzzi, I watch the water level when the pump is in operation. When the water level drops or abnormal sounds, I can stop it and go downstairs to check. Even it is too late to stop the leak due to broken pipe (sometimes are never connected pipe). The owners never claim me for water damage because I already asked for permission.

[Jim Luttrall]

Thanks Aaron, I could not find a diagram and Jerry must not be squinting properly to see the photo.;)
Lasco also contains the same reference and wording in their instructions.

If ceramic tile is used as a wall covering, the intersection of materials (tile to pan) should be porous to allow water to escape. Leaving the
valley detail on the pan clear of all materials will allow water to escape in pan draining area. [See Diagram 3: Detail A and B] Refer to
applicable building codes for proper finishing of other trades.

http://www.lascobathware.com/installation/2900.pdf

[Jerry Peck]

Thanks Aaron, I could not find a diagram and Jerry must not be squinting properly to see the photo.;)
Lasco also contains the same reference and wording in their instructions.

If ceramic tile is used as a wall covering, the intersection of materials (tile to pan) should be porous to allow water to escape. Leaving the
valley detail on the pan clear of all materials will allow water to escape in pan draining area. [See Diagram 3: Detail A and B] Refer to
applicable building codes for proper finishing of other trades.

http://www.lascobathware.com/installation/2900.pdf


Which has nothing to do with that recess. :)

You can squint all you want, and re-read those instructions all you want, and they will always be referring to setting the grout on that turned edge where the lip turns up :D ... but does not say or refer to anything about that recess. :(

[Richard Moore]

The black edge might be the felt installed over the pan lip in which case I believe it would be OK. Pan, felt, cement board and tile in that order.

[Jim Luttrall]

I guess Jerry will never be convinced even with diagrams and instructions.:rolleyes:
For the rest of the world, the valley detail or depression should be left open with no caulk to allow the water to drain back into the pan as shown in the diagrams and photo. If you see caulk in that opening in OP photo or valley as noted in the diagrams, that would be wrong according to the installation instructions provided by at least two manufacturers.
It is not any form of an overflow channel or drain.

[Jerry Peck]

I guess Jerry will never be convinced even with diagrams and instructions.:rolleyes:

Jim,

Provide diagrams which show that recess and instructions which talk about that recess and I will be a believer.

Show me a 'S' and tell me it is an 'L', and show me instructions talking about an 'L' and, no, I won't believe you.

In fact, you should not believer you either.


It is not any form of an overflow channel or drain.

Not a single one of those shows that recess.

[Jerry Peck]

Jim,

Show me, in the drawings diagrams, photos, etc., you are referring to where it is referring to the recessed area I have encircled and pointed out in green.

All of those diagrams are showing and referring to the yellow cross hatched horizontal area on the horizontal edge where the tile sets.

I am trying to learn, but either you are not showing what you think you are, or I am blind (I have been blind before). :)

[Jim Luttrall]

Recess = valley detail

[Jerry Peck]

Recess = valley detail


In what drawing?

[Jim Luttrall]

Try this

[Jim Luttrall]

Sorry, I have been having trouble uploading the diagram.
The diagram noted in the referenced instructions show the valley recess if you look closely for it on the top of page 3. The written instructions are quoted below and refer to the recessed area as a valley.

The valley is also pictured and labeled on Aaron's diagram.


Thanks Aaron, I could not find a diagram and Jerry must not be squinting properly to see the photo.;)
Lasco also contains the same reference and wording in their instructions.

If ceramic tile is used as a wall covering, the intersection of materials (tile to pan) should be porous to allow water to escape. Leaving the
valley detail on the pan clear of all materials will allow water to escape in pan draining area. [See Diagram 3: Detail A and B] Refer to
applicable building codes for proper finishing of other trades.

http://www.lascobathware.com/installation/2900.pdf

[Jerry Peck]

Sorry, I have been having trouble uploading the diagram.
The diagram noted in the referenced instructions show the valley recess if you look closely for it on the top of page 3. The written instructions are quoted below and refer to the recessed area as a valley.

The valley is also pictured and labeled on Aaron's diagram.


What those are showing are angled surfaces up to the level of the dam at the entry, with, at best, a tiny dip for what they are calling a valley, nothing anywhere near as large as that recessed area in Daniel's photos.

But, okay, I'll buy that is what is being referenced even though they are not very similar (in size, shape or configuration), but I can see where their purpose could be the same.

One is like Mud Bog Creek and one is like Marianas Trench in the Pacific Ocean.

[Rick Hurst]

They are not over flows.

Rick

[Jerry Peck]

They are not over flows.

Rick


I'm going to go with Rick and Jim as I have never seen one with the Marianas Trench like that.

:)

I'd also recommend a guard of some type to keep big toes from getting stuck in that huge sucker. :D

[Tom Rees]

When you look into the hole what do you see? if it is a drain I presume you would see some kind of drain pipe. I am curious so I know when I see one. :D

[Brandon Whitmore]

These type of pans with the drains, valleys, weeps, holes or whatever you call them are pretty common, at least in Oregon.

My understanding on how they work is this: tile walls are porous, so water will seep in behind the enclosure. There is the perimeter flange that runs up behind the tiles so that water drains down to the flange/ lip, and does not seep into the house wall (think of the exposed tile as porous counter flashing). The installer is supposed to then grout the tiles to the pan/ base so that water can drain back out of the cavity. The weep, valley (whatever it is called) is supposed to be left un- sealed to aid in draining water back out from behind the enclosure.

I've never seen, nor heard of one that is like a sink overflow. I doubt any are designed to have an actual overflow drain that ties into the drain pipe.

[A.D. Miller]

These type of pans with the drains, valleys, weeps, holes or whatever you call them are pretty common, at least in Oregon.

My understanding on how they work is this: tile walls are porous, so water will seep in behind the enclosure. There is the perimeter flange that runs up behind the tiles so that water that water drains down to the flange/ lip, and does not seep into the house wall (think of the exposed tile as porous counter flashing). The installer is supposed to then grout the tiles to the pan/ base so that water can drain back out of the cavity. The weep, valley (whatever it is called) is supposed to be left un- sealed to aid in draining water back out from behind the enclosure.

I've never seen, nor heard of one that is like a sink overflow. I doubt any are designed to have an actual overflow drain that ties into the drain pipe.

Brandon:

At the risk of repeating several other folks and myself: THEY ARE NOT OVERFLOWS. PERIOD.

Anyone who disputes this should try it out on the next one you find. Seal off the shower drain, turn on the water and let it run until it comes out onto the floor - which won't be long. Your feet will begin to feel cold. You will know the overflow theory is all wet, along with your feet.:cool:

[Ted Menelly]

Brandon:

At the risk of repeating several other folks and myself: THEY ARE NOT OVERFLOWS. PERIOD.

Anyone who disputes this should try it out on the next one you find. Seal off the shower drain, turn on the water and let it run until it comes out onto the floor - which won't be long. Your feet will begin to feel cold. You will know the overflow theory is all wet, along with your feet.:cool:

Now are you absolutely sure they are not overflows :p Could you splain me one more time :confused:

I could swear they are overflows. Or could they be to let the water out from behind the tile :rolleyes:

I'll have to think about that some more after I get 10 more explanations and diagrams.

All kidding aside they should have overflows for when you drop a washcloth in the shower after turning the water on and answer the phone. Not to mention overflows would be nice when you get on the phone while inspecting and forget you left the water running and only put one of those flat drain stops on them instead of the plunger looking deals that let the water flow in the top.

[Robert Olson]

Oddly enough I saw the same configuration in California. They're called ant holes and have to be inspected by a pest control operator, at least in California, as part of their standards of performance. Evidently shower pans in California fall under "conditions conducive for wood destroying insects" but then its California. I assume it would also depend on your geographical location. I'd ask a PCO in your state or province.

[Brandon Whitmore]

At the risk of repeating several other folks and myself: THEY ARE NOT OVERFLOWS. PERIOD.

Aaron, I was agreeing with you. I re- read my post and don't see where I said that they were overflows. They drain water back into the shower. I posted because I was surprised that this post went on for so long. ??

EDIT: I just noticed that Toms post prior to mine had this::D So, whoops.

[Jerry Peck]

*IF*, as I have come to agree with, those are recessed to allow water to drain back into the shower pan from behind the tile, then ... :D

... THERE IS NO PROBLEM filling the shower stall up with water to the level of just below the top of the threshold/curb and into the recesses.

Because the water stop lip runs higher than the recesses behind the tile.

*IF* you do that and water leaks out ... THERE IS A PROBLEM. :eek:

[A.D. Miller]

*IF*, as I have come to agree with, those are recessed to allow water to drain back into the shower pan from behind the tile, then ... :D

... THERE IS NO PROBLEM filling the shower stall up with water to the level of just below the top of the threshold/curb and into the recesses.

Because the water stop lip runs higher than the recesses behind the tile.

*IF* you do that and water leaks out ... THERE IS A PROBLEM. :eek:

JP: Maybe, just maybe, these valleys, weep holes, whatever are connected in fact to the proverbial "tubes" which we often here of when folks say that something has "gown down the tubes". But, the late :D George Carlin said that there weren't any fukking tubes. I concur.

[Richard Moore]

Is this still going on?

Let's look at the photo once more.

First, the recess appears to go back about the thickness of what would be tile and the cement board. In other words to where you would expect a flange. No one is going to make a pan with protuberances beyond that or it would not fit into a standard opening.

Second, as I mentioned before, I believe the black edge you can see is probably the bottom of the felt or moisture barrier. That would often be installed before the pan but I see no harm in having it over the lip or flange. Actually seems like a good idea.

Which leaves me with number three: If this were an overflow, and accepting the recess doesn't go beyond the flange, then why is there not a large and obvious hole for the water to drain into?

Yep, it's bigger than the weep holes we typically see, but I'm 99.9999% certain that it is a weep. Perhaps the pan manufacturer got tired of people filling the smaller weep holes with caulk and designed this so that it was obvious that they shouldn't be.

[A.D. Miller]

Is this still going on?

Let's look at the photo once more.

First, the recess appears to go back about the thickness of what would be tile and the cement board. In other words to where you would expect a flange. No one is going to make a pan with protuberances beyond that or it would not fit into a standard opening.

Second, as I mentioned before, I believe the black edge you can see is probably the bottom of the felt or moisture barrier. That would often be installed before the pan but I see no harm in having it over the lip or flange. Actually seems like a good idea.

Which leaves me with number three: If this were an overflow, and accepting the recess doesn't go beyond the flange, then why is there not a large and obvious hole for the water to drain into?

Yep, it's bigger than the weep holes we typically see, but I'm 99.9999% certain that it is a weep. Perhaps the pan manufacturer got tired of people filling the smaller weep holes with caulk and designed this so that it was obvious that they shouldn't be.

Richard: This thread has gone down the tubes.

[Rick Hurst]

Aaron,

I've read the "whole" thing again now till I'm weeping.:(

rick

[Jerry Peck]

Richard,

I think that MOST here are in agreement that they are weeps.

And, as such, this holds true ...


... THERE IS NO PROBLEM filling the shower stall up with water to the level of just below the top of the threshold/curb and into the recesses.

Because the water stop lip runs higher than the recesses behind the tile.

*IF* you do that and water leaks out ... THERE IS A PROBLEM. :eek:


*IF* that test shows a leak, then something is cracked/broken.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Weep holes and weep valleys should not be filled.

Looks like the shower base may have been one that could have also been used with a wall panel system and the top trim support cut or missing.

Most also require minimum 1/4" un-filled weep in the inside corners of a single threshold shower base.

Attached is an example of similar which was inproperly filled.

The link is for a canada shower base. Note diagrams at bottom of pg 2, the area grayed is representing required unfilled voids for weep holes to drain the weep valley behind the 1/8" caulk line.

http://www.foremostcanada.com/uploads/2045-E.pdf

[A.D. Miller]

Weep holes and weep valleys should not be filled.

Looks like the shower base may have been one that could have also been used with a wall panel system and the top trim support cut or missing.

Most also require minimum 1/4" un-filled weep in the inside corners of a single threshold shower base.

Attached is an example of similar which was inproperly filled.

The link is for a canada shower base. Note diagrams at bottom of pg 2, the area grayed is representing required unfilled voids for weep holes to drain the weep valley behind the 1/8" caulk line.

http://www.foremostcanada.com/uploads/2045-E.pdf


HG: Agreed.

[Philip]

Which way is the gap slanted? If it is to the interior of the shower it would be a weep. If it is slanted to the wall then it would be an overflow. But what is the thinking in using a material for shower walls that is so porous as to require such a gap to let out water? Are the natural stones so porous that when you see them then alarm bells should go off?:confused:

[Rick Hurst]

Phillip,

Your about a year and 3 months behind on this thread you think?

We hashed over it for way too long before. LOL

rick

[Philip]

Rick, I was not here a year ago on this fourum, so I do not know the outcome of all this hashish, no, I mean hashing?
:)

[Philip]

I will admit that I find this forum both enlightening and entertaining:D .

[Robert Pike]

Jerry, I think what you are seeing in the OP photo is a shadow, but I agree it "looks" open to the back.
I see these installed in production homes on a daily basis around here just like these pictured here and TRUST ME, these are NOT overflows and should not be tested!
Sorry about the picture I posted, the depressions are barely visible but are there if you look closely (squint a little- it helps:D ).
If you choose to test a one piece pan like this, make sure you have the water vac on hand. Rick claims to have a collection on hand... he will probably make you a deal.;)

I concur with Jim, I see this in many production homes. The first time I returned after the client caulked the opening & guess what happened the moisture from the tile board run back to exterior and on the floor and base board.

[David Bell]

Just curious whether any of you have inspected any schluter systems showers? They come with a fitted 2 piece styrofoam base that gets slurried to the drain, and have a fiberglass matte that gets attached to the walls providing a flashing to the base. Tile is adhered to the walls and base just as a normal enclosure but the enclosure is water tight before tileing.