will Cap and trade help inspection

[Ron Bibler]

what is tucked away into the Cap and trade bill .

A little bit of the 1400 page bill.

Federal imposition on local building codes? Your local planning and building offices will not be qualified for any Federal funding of any kind unless they adopt what the FEDS say is the new energy efficient building standards. This will create higher prices in building new homes which is then passed on the homebuyers and then you as inspectors are also effected because less buyers will be able to afford to buy a new home. Not to mention having to wait for the Feds to come and inspect the builders and the homes.

New Federal Energy. Federal Inspectors :eek: will come and rate a home before it can sold. So before a home is listed for sale, the seller will have to wait for the Federal inspectors to come out. DMV lines anyone? Once that inspector comes out, he or she will give the home an energy rating. If the home does not meet the guidelines the seller will be required to do the work necessary to bring the home up to energy standards before they can sell the home?

I don't like this bill... I think its bad news for every one.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

There are a lot of Federal Inspectors here on this board, better not carry on too much ... :rolleyes:

Let's see, there are HUD, FHA, VA, "Federal Inspectors" just to name a few.

[Ron Bibler]

There are a lot of Federal Inspectors here on this board, better not carry on too much ... :rolleyes:

Let's see, there are HUD, FHA, VA, "Federal Inspectors" just to name a few.

How many are set up for RESNET. And the new requirements ?

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

How many are set up for RESNET. And the new requirements ?

Best

Ron

Several here are RESNET. ;)

[Ted Menelly]

Well Ron

If those guidelines are followed and it is for existing homes then no existing home will meet the energy rating unless it is only several years old or newer. How about replacing all single pain windows or for that matter how about all 10 seer HVAC systems and insulation, ventilatio etc etc etc. That will kill anyone from selling a home if in fact it applies to existing homes as well.

I have not read the bill yet.

Most new homes should not be a big factor.

[Ron Bibler]

Well Ron

I have not read the bill yet. .

Thats OK Ted... No one in Congress has read the bill either.:eek:

And the house has just past it.

But then no one gives a crap about this kind of stuff.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Some of the people who support the Cap and Trade bill:
- Arizona Senator John McCain
- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger

Business leaders: Cap and trade is best for business

Some of the largest corporations in the United States, including ConocoPhillips, Deere & Co., The Dow Chemical Company, DuPont, Exelon Corporation, Ford Motor Company, Johnson & Johnson, PepsiCo., Shell, Xerox and more agree: Cap and trade is the best way to regulate emissions while fostering economic growth.

Also buried in the bill:
- Keeps utility rates low for consumers by giving 30% of allowances to local electricity and natural gas companies, and requiring the utilities to pass the benefits on to their customers
- Protects low- and moderate-income households by allocating 15% of allowances to minimize impacts on these households

Yeah, it sure is a real bad a$$bill, isn't it?

Ron, you need to stop listening to Rush and pay more attention to real life. :rolleyes:

[Ron Bibler]

Some of the people who support the Cap and Trade bill:
- Arizona Senator John McCain
- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger

Business leaders: Cap and trade is best for business

Some of the largest corporations in the United States, including ConocoPhillips, Deere & Co., The Dow Chemical Company, DuPont, Exelon Corporation, Ford Motor Company, Johnson & Johnson, PepsiCo., Shell, Xerox and more agree: Cap and trade is the best way to regulate emissions while fostering economic growth.

Also buried in the bill:
- Keeps utility rates low for consumers by giving 30% of allowances to local electricity and natural gas companies, and requiring the utilities to pass the benefits on to their customers
- Protects low- and moderate-income households by allocating 15% of allowances to minimize impacts on these households

Yeah, it sure is a real bad a$$bill, isn't it?

Ron, you need to stop listening to Rush and pay more attention to real life. :rolleyes:

So what kind of back room deals did they cut Jerry.

P.S. - Arizona Senator John McCain
- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger :D ARE NOT conservatives.

Its a bad bill. bub.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

So what kind of back room deals did they cut Jerry.

P.S. - Arizona Senator John McCain
- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger :D ARE NOT conservatives.

Its a bad bill. bub.

Best

Ron

It actually might be a great bill, no one knows yet.

But, if you judge it against MOST of those which were passed through the previous administration of King W, it is going to be a GREAT bill. bub.

[Ted Menelly]

Some of the people who support the Cap and Trade bill:
- Arizona Senator John McCain
- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger

Business leaders: Cap and trade is best for business

Some of the largest corporations in the United States, including ConocoPhillips, Deere & Co., The Dow Chemical Company, DuPont, Exelon Corporation, Ford Motor Company, Johnson & Johnson, PepsiCo., Shell, Xerox and more agree: Cap and trade is the best way to regulate emissions while fostering economic growth.

Also buried in the bill:
- Keeps utility rates low for consumers by giving 30% of allowances to local electricity and natural gas companies, and requiring the utilities to pass the benefits on to their customers
- Protects low- and moderate-income households by allocating 15% of allowances to minimize impacts on these households

Yeah, it sure is a real bad a$$bill, isn't it?

Ron, you need to stop listening to Rush and pay more attention to real life. :rolleyes:

The blue Highlight...............And who do you think will be paying for those 15 and 30% allowances

The red Highlight..........And who do you think will be paying for the Gov kickbacks to those corporations for doing their good deeds.



Not taking sides here, but Jerry, someone will be paying for all that money given for allowances and kick backs.

I think it will be the rest of the Americans or should I say US citizens.

There is not just hand outs of raw cash without it coming back in some place

Please stop with the King Bush thing. His era is over and we are just talking of what the current admin is doing.

Oh yeah, who do you think is going to pay for the medical bill and the help out families that may have to get foreclosed on. I think it will be the rest of the US citizens.

The increase to energy costs to pay for the new programs, medical benefits taxed.

I would think that half of what Our President ran on about no new taxes for anyone making less than 250,000. If it is not a tax then what word that skirts around the tax word would you call it.

No, this is not a rant just simple 1rst grade math and reality.

Someone is going to pay for all these wonderful programs that the Dems have wanted to do for decades. And the sick part of it is I was born and raised pure Yankee Democrat for half of my life. Now I am leaery of being either a liberal or Conservative or Dem or Republican.

Way to much, way to fast is being shoved down the Americans throats all at once. All of this would normaly take a generation to put in place. It will for a long period of time (very long period) hurt the growth of America and create a stagnant ecomomy for a long time to come.

Way to much, way to fast, no matter how good it may look.

[Jerry Peck]

Not taking sides here, but Jerry, someone will be paying for all that money given for allowances and kick backs.

I think it will be the rest of the Americans or should I say US citizens.

Ted,

I am aware of that, but if you look and history and (the critical part) learn from history, you will see and understand that without the US government handing out handouts at the last depression, we may not be here as we know it today, the US may not have survived as we have known it.

Taking that lesson from history, when the going gets tough you do not stop spending, you start spending.

When the government BUYS THINGS ... SOMEONE has to MAKE THEM AND SELL THEM ... and then slowly starts the cycle of rebuilding the economy.

I realize that is a simplistic description of it, but some here will not even be able to grasp that.

[Billy Stephens]

When the government BUYS THINGS ... SOMEONE has to MAKE THEM AND SELL THEM ... and then slowly starts the cycle of rebuilding the economy.

grasp that.
.
You mean Like BUNDLED SECURITIES ? :D
.

[Jerry Peck]

.
You mean Like BUNDLED SECURITIES ? :D
.

Those too! :D

[John Dirks Jr]

If the bill causes energy prices to rise, the prices of everything will rise. I can't imagine how that is good for the economy. In turn, that wouldn't help us.

Things are moving too fast. You better store your nuts. Although, if inflation sky rockets, your nuts won't be worth anything anyway.

So many people got their heads burried in the sand. Its amazing.

[Ted Menelly]

If the bill causes energy prices to rise, the prices of everything will rise. I can't imagine how that is good for the economy. In turn, that wouldn't help us.

Things are moving too fast. You better store your nuts. Although, if inflation sky rockets, your nuts won't be worth anything anyway.

So many people got their heads burried in the sand. Its amazing.

If you still have any nuts after all this:eek:

[Rick Cantrell]

The guvmint gonna take my NUTS,
jokes on them, MY nuts don work no more.:p

[Bob Spermo]

I do not believe anyone in the world has read the entire bill and its 300 page amendment! For what I can gather it will put the Federal government more into everyone's lives. The new Energy Star requirement proposal (for 2011) is incredibly detailed and will definitely cost builders more money. The new RESNET proposal for thermal imaging is incredibly detailed and will cost everyone more money. Will all of the money that these programs cost save that much energy? I doubt it. And I probably stand to gain from these proposals as I am RESNET certified and I still think they may be going overboard!

[Markus Keller]

I haven't read the bill so I won't comment on it overall. However, if it contains energy code requirements, then that's a damn good thing.
The amount of energy we waste as a nation and industry in home construction is a disgrace. Many energy efficiencies can be done for small dollar amounts, others of course cost some real dough.
For far too long R13 has been the exterior wall norm. R19 has been coming around a bit. Why are we still installing 80+furnaces?
dinner bell, gotta go

[Jerry McCarthy]

I'm in total agreement with Markus. What will be the problem will be government inspections.
Anybody here ever go through an OSHA inspection when they where a builder??

[Kevin Rutledge]

I don't know about the inspection side of things, but here in southwest Indiana people are very worried about our utility bills and alot of jobs. Because of all the coal generated power plants in the tri-state area. They are going to get hit hard.

[Scott Patterson]

In my neck of the woods we have TVA power. At 7.8 cents a KWH we have some of the lowest cost power in the country.

I must admit that I have not read the bill, I have skimmed sections and have listened to folks who have read the bill.

If folks would look at the energy bill with logic and not emotions I think that we would first see that the cost for a homeowner to retro fit their home would be almost cost prohibited. Yes, I know that the bill also has a "help the homeowner pay for it" section, but where will this money come from?

My home is 3 years old, it is right at 2200sf. I have 3ton & 1ton (bonus room) 14SEER A/C units and we keep our home right at 68f in the summer and around 65f in the winter. My electric bill for June was $174 My gas bill for January was $82. These have been my highest for the year and are about normal for those months.

I doubt my home would pass an energy audit without spending $500 to $1000 and I doubt that I would see any drastic savings.

Now if I cut off the three computers that run 24/7, cut off the 75 gallon fish tank, unplugged the 4 TV sets, cable boxes, etc, etc. I might save another $25 a month.

Has anyone realized that the bill also has a provision that local utility companies can place a device on your A/C to control how and when it can get power? This was popular back in the 1970's and 80's in many parts of the country.

[Jerry Peck]

Has anyone realized that the bill also has a provision that local utility companies can place a device on your A/C to control how and when it can get power? This was popular back in the 1970's and 80's in many parts of the country.

That is nothing new, as you said - it has been around for quite some time, our house has one on the water heater, don't know why it does not have one on the a/c. When you put those on, you get a credit each month as it allows the power company to have rolling brown-outs instead of massive black-outs when things get overloaded and the utility shuts down.

You say "Has any realized" like it is a new and dastardly thing. Would you rather loose your a/c for 15 minutes or so on a rolling basis or suffer through a black-out where you will loose EVERYTHING for potentially hours.

Some people do not like who was elected and will try to excite others into their thinking by going to extremes to make something seem scary and dark and dastardly, and all ominous ... when in fact that very thing has been going on for decades.

Scott, I would have expected better from you. From some of the others, no, but from you, yes.

[Michael Larson]

Some people do not like who was elected and will try to excite others into their thinking by going to extremes to make something seem scary and dark and dastardly, and all ominous ... when in fact that very thing has been going on for decades.It's not about liking or disliking Jerry.

It's about poorly thought out policy and the scaring of the public into supporting legislation that will not do what it purports to do. Period.

If this thing(blob) gets passed we will be throwing $$$$$ down a rat hole for little or not return.

[Jerry Peck]

It's about poorly thought out policy and the scaring of the public into supporting legislation that will not do what it purports to do. Period.

Let me get this straight, here, trying to figure it out ...

After 8 friggin' YEARS of "poorly thought out policy and the scaring of the public into supporting legislation that will not do what it purports to do" you guys are now starting to complain when efforts are made to bring this country back from the brink?

Holy $hit!

I can definitely see the flock forming behind those are were all for the head-on into the brick wall for 8 years ...

[Michael Larson]

Let me get this straight, here, trying to figure it out ...

After 8 friggin' YEARS of "poorly thought out policy and the scaring of the public into supporting legislation that will not do what it purports to do" you guys are now starting to complain when efforts are made to bring this country back from the brink?

Holy $hit!

I can definitely see the flock forming behind those are were all for the head-on into the brick wall for 8 years ...This is not about Bush my dear Jerry but I don't blame you for wanting to make it about him when you have nothing else.

This cap and trade bill is not about job creation.

In fact, if passed more jobs will be lost to to much higher energy prices as those jobs go off shore were energy and labor are cheaper.

Get you head out of your ideology and think it through.:rolleyes:

You're a bright guy I know you can do it.

[Jeff Zehnder]

Usually the responses and posts on this site are about issues that the sender knowns something about. The only thing "anyone" can say about this bill it that we do not really know what it will say so I find it interesting how quickly the discussion digressed. One thing we may surmise is that it will add another layer of bureaucracy in a distant land (DC) and other than that who knows???
If you favor more government control, positive or negative you may support the measure on principal. If you favor the individual over centralized control then most likely you will not support the bill. As far a those mentioned in the post that do favor it I would say first they are professional politicians and second they have an agenda while I do not.
Happy July 4th to all.

[Ron Bibler]

That is nothing new, as you said - it has been around for quite some time, our house has one on the water heater, don't know why it does not have one on the a/c. When you put those on, you get a credit each month as it allows the power company to have rolling brown-outs instead of massive black-outs when things get overloaded and the utility shuts down.

You say "Has any realized" like it is a new and dastardly thing. Would you rather loose your a/c for 15 minutes or so on a rolling basis or suffer through a black-out where you will loose EVERYTHING for potentially hours.

Some people do not like who was elected and will try to excite others into their thinking by going to extremes to make something seem scary and dark and dastardly, and all ominous ... when in fact that very thing has been going on for decades.

Scott, I would have expected better from you. From some of the others, no, but from you, yes.


:eek: Holly crap Jerry now you have exposed your self. You mean to say that you OK with The city, county, state or the Feds to have a finger on the switch to your own property. they can monitor what you do and how you do it and when you do it:eek: I bet you had a cow along with all the others about wire taps:D on people that wanted to do harm to our country.

Your out there Dude. I Mean your Out there...:eek:

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

:eek: Holly crap Jerry now you have exposed your self. You mean to say that you OK with The city, county, state or the Feds to have a finger on the switch to your own property. they can monitor what you do and how you do it and when you do it:eek:

Ron,

They ALREADY ARE in the house, from beginning construction to the end of time.

They ALREADY ARE monitoring what we all do, started be King W but he took it to new limits and you guys liked that so quit hollerin' about less. :p

Talk about being WAY OUT THERE - you really think, or you really believe, that anyone can monitor what we do through the load management controller?

Man, Ron, YOU ARE WAY - WAY - WAY OUT THERE. :rolleyes:

I thought only those running around with aluminum foil wrapped around their heads thought that. :eek:

[David Burch]

Good evening all,
I don't usually get into this type of discussion. But on this one I feel I need to. First of all I am a RESNET qualified energy auditor performing audits on existing homes and Energy Star for new homes. I am also a home inspector in Maryland. After reading everything on this bill I can get my hands on, I find myself in a conflicted position. While the bill will definately boost the auditor business for a time, I believe it will kill the homes resale business and ultimately cause the economy to fall again or more, depending how you look at it. As far as $$ help from the gov't, it will evntually run out. Here in MD we have some great energy incentives written into legislation but there is never enough money in any fiscal year to sustain the program.

Since the new EPA Energy Star proposal has been out for public comment, several of the builders I do work for have said that if it is adopted as written, they will have to drop the program due to the cost. It is estimated that the additional cost to them will be $1000 to $1200. If it is forced upon them, they will have to pass that cost on to the home buyer.

Just my two cents worth...

[Ron Bibler]

Jerry you miss the point. you are all game for this kind of stuff. you are saying come on in set up shop. I for one will not have my electrical system in my home be shut off by some wack job in sacramento Ca.

I understand they see all known all but i do not support this kind of stuff like you do.

Thats the point.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry you miss the point. you are all game for this kind of stuff. you are saying come on in set up shop. I for one will not have my electrical system in my home be shut off by some wack job in sacramento Ca.

I understand they see all known all but i do not support this kind of stuff like you do.

Thats the point.

Best

Ron

The point is I think the whack job is on the other side of your computer at your key board. :D

You would have to be a whack job to believe the stuff you are spouting. :eek:

[Michael Larson]

The point is I think the whack job is on the other side of your computer at your key board. :D

You would have to be a whack job to believe the stuff you are spouting. :eek:If you believe GW was watching you I think that the whack job is the person you see in the mirror.:D

[Ron Bibler]

Look Jerry if i want to run my AC Unit all day and all night. that my bis.

If i want to run my heater all day and all night with the windows open thats my bis. i pay the bills. and if the system will not keep up they need to fix the dumb thing so it can keep up with me.

For a country like the USA no one should say we need to slow down and not consume so much. I say we need to better our lives and consume more and more and find better ways to do it. that will get things going. not putting caps on things.

Say i have a good idea lets go back to 1800. we all could get a horse.

Thats just plane dum...

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

If i want to run my heater all day and all night with the windows open thats my bis. i pay the bills. and if the system will not keep up they need to fix the dumb thing so it can keep up with me.

Yet you are complaining about them trying to "fix the dumb thing so it can keep up with" YOU.

That, and the rest of your post indicates someone who is not aware that they are not on this planet alone and that there is a thing called "social responsibility" which takes precedence over *you want yours, all of yours, all of it now, and to heck with everyone else*, even though it is *everyone else* who has allowed you to get yours.

(sigh - like talking to a pre-schooler who has not yet had time to learn much, ... except they are in the learning phase of their life so they are receptive to learning about others around them)

I think it may be time for Ron and all of his classroom mates - first is lunch, then nap time.

[Ron Bibler]

Jerry we are not out of any thing we have more resources then we could ever use.

its just like back in the 70. no gas BS we had all the gas, oil. in our own back yard. the problem was not enough. the problem is the liberalization of this country that is what puts caps on things.

not the lack of.

best

Ron

[Michael Larson]

(sigh - like talking to a pre-schooler who has not yet had time to learn much, ... except they are in the learning phase of their life so they are receptive to learning about others around them)

I think it may be time for Ron and all of his classroom mates - first is lunch, then nap time.How typical of a liberal.

They think they are the smartest guys in the room and look down their nose ant everyone else.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

How about some facts and logic Jerry instead of the name calling?

You do have them, right?

[Jerry Peck]

we are not out of any thing we have more resources then we could ever use.

its just like back in the 70. no gas BS we had all the gas, oil. in our own back yard. the problem was not enough.


Let me get this straight now:

1) We have more than everything of what we need.

2) But we do not have enough of it.

:confused:

[Ron Bibler]

Let me get this straight now:

1) We have more than everything of what we need.

2) But we do not have enough of it.

:confused:

Jerry I feel like I'm trying to have a conversation with my sisters kids:p


O.K. i said. Jerry we are not out of anything we have more resources then we could ever use. :D

Do you understand this ? Jerry Jerry Hello...


And then I said. Jerry its just like back in the 70. no gas BS we had all the gas, oil. in our own back yard. the problem was not enough. the problem is the liberalization of this country that is what puts caps on things.

not the lack of.

Do you understand this part Jerry? Jerry Jerry Hello...

I did not think so....:(

Best

Ron

[Jim Hintz]

Give him HELL Ron !!! He spouts off all the time looking down his nose at everyone - a regular know it all - reminds me of Cliff Clavin on the old Cheers TV Series. Granted, he has the smarts when it comes to inspecting, but for someone to have over 12,000 posts, when does he ever work? Or does he just sit at his computer 24/7 looking for a newbie or someone with less experience to pick on? For all of you Kool-Aid Drinkers and Al Gore Supporters, you are ruining this country, Global Warming is BS. I Don't remember whether it was Kruschev or Gorbachev who said when asked about America - " I'm not worried about America, America will collapse from the inside" - but they were right !!! :D

[Jerry Peck]

Give him HELL Ron !!! He spouts off all the time looking down his nose at everyone - a regular know it all - reminds me of Cliff Clavin on the old Cheers TV Series. Granted, he has the smarts when it comes to inspecting, but for someone to have over 12,000 posts, when does he ever work? Or does he just sit at his computer 24/7 looking for a newbie or someone with less experience to pick on? For all of you Kool-Aid Drinkers and Al Gore Supporters, you are ruining this country, Global Warming is BS. I Don't remember whether it was Kruschev or Gorbachev who said when asked about America - " I'm not worried about America, America will collapse from the inside" - but they were right !!! :D


My, my , my ... what an educational post from someone who has *3* posts, including that brilliant one. :rolleyes:

Jim Hintz (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/members/jim-hintz.html)
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3

:rolleyes:

:eek:

[Ron Bibler]

Jerry I feel like I'm trying to have a conversation with my sisters kids:p


O.K. i said. Jerry we are not out of anything we have more resources then we could ever use. :D

Do you understand this ? Jerry Jerry Hello...


And then I said. Jerry its just like back in the 70. no gas BS we had all the gas, oil. in our own back yard. the problem was not enough. the problem is the liberalization of this country that is what puts caps on things.

not the lack of.

Do you understand this part Jerry? Jerry Jerry Hello...

I did not think so....:(

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

AND THEN I SAID

(sigh - like talking to a pre-schooler who has not yet had time to learn much, ... except they are in the learning phase of their life so they are receptive to learning about others around them)

I think it may be time for Ron and all of his classroom mates - first is lunch, then nap time.

Ron, you are disturbing the other children with your carrying ons like that - it is NAP TIME Ron ... lay down and be quiet like a nice little boy - here is a Harley Davidson motorcycle to hold next to you for comfort. :rolleyes:

:D

[Ron Bibler]

O.K. i said. Jerry we are not out of anything we have more resources then we could ever use. :D


I said. Jerry its just like back in the 70. no gas BS we had all the gas, oil. in our own back yard. the problem was not enough. the problem is the liberalization of this country that is what puts caps on things.

not the lack of.



Best

Ron

[Michael Larson]

I think it is high time Jerry learned that his opinions are not always based on facts.

Afterall he is convinced GW was watching him.:p

I have never understood how an HI could be so liberal when he has made a career of stating things the way they are and not just how he wants or imagines them to be.

"Cap and trade" is a tax on energy including those that make less the $250K a year.

To claim otherwise is a lie. A BIG BIG lie a that.

Their is no magic energy bullet out there and the one low carbon alternative is Nuclear and I see little move toward building any new plants.

Instead people are being lied to that wind and solar are the ticket. Both are very expensive ways to produce energy.

With the mandates for "renewable energy" sources in the bill, there is no way energy will not cost more.

A lot more.

Jerry, Ron and I will be gone before teh biggest part of this hits and it is our kids and grand kids that will be deprived of the oppurtunity to live in what was a great country, The United States of America.

[Edward Loughran]

So if the government is buying a bunch of stuff this is good because it creates demand for goods? But if Ron Bibler runs his utilities 24/7 this is bad. I don't understand that. Ron is creating a demand for energy and employing people. Almost the same as our Senators and Congress buying stuff we don't need. The difference being that if Ron wants to stop he will. But have you ever seen a federal program do anything but balloon?

[Michael Chambers]

The disturbing part about Cap & Trade is the trade part. The carbon credits that are to be traded will end up being traded on Wall St. where the people who are pushing this are counting on making a ton of money - that we'll be providing.

The really disturbing thing about this thread is that anyone would believe that the measure of a person's intelligence or education is the number of times they have posted here. I'm not that far ahead of Jim in that regard, so that doesn't bode well for me either.

Regards,

Mike

[Ted Menelly]

AND THEN I SAID

(sigh - like talking to a pre-schooler who has not yet had time to learn much, ... except they are in the learning phase of their life so they are receptive to learning about others around them)

I think it may be time for Ron and all of his classroom mates - first is lunch, then nap time.

Ron, you are disturbing the other children with your carrying ons like that - it is NAP TIME Ron ... lay down and be quiet like a nice little boy - here is a Harley Davidson motorcycle to hold next to you for comfort. :rolleyes:

:D

Thats alright Jerry. You can come sit by me, those damn bullies, picking on you like that. Not that I agree with you at all about the Gov having their hands, as the true Liberals have always wanted for decades, into every aspect of our lives and does not want a rich nor poor society but wants the folks with money, no matter how hard they worked for it, to spread it out to those who don't have money.

I am not sure of the word I am thinking of that describes that trane of thought , it is right on the tip of my tounge but it just won't roll off.

Hm, controling everything we do in life. Like where to spend money. How to spend money. What to spend money on. If one has to much and someone else does not then how it will be levied to spread it out it the places someone in control deems fit. Where to save money. Where to invest mon ey. Decide whether a friend of mine can to lend me ten grand and what percentage the gov will get of that no interest loan from one friend to another.

What kind of car to drive. how big that car is. How big a home a four member family should live in, God forbid they turn their thermostat down a bit cause they like it a little cooler. How much the Gov will get for that family wanting to be a little cooler. One wants to eat out a lot so he should be taxed on that because he is in a position to do that. Damn, he must run his car engine more to get to those resteraunts, lets see how we can tax him on that.

Pretty soon it will be mandated that everyone lives in a square box with no windows, SIP walls and ceilings with an R40 factor. You can only open that door when you are actually leaving the home for work or school or whatever..
No playing in the dirt because to much soap has to be used and maybe more and or hotter water used to get those clothes clean.

Might be thinking this is sure a rant, huh.

You might be thinking this is a bit of exageration, huh.

Think again. The controls and regulation and impositions are coming at you faster than you can blink your eyes.

I watched Obama the other day. As I watched his stance and listened to his tone and watched how his slightly turned down head and lowering of his voice, literally demanding that what he was saying must be heeded or the world is going to hell in a hand basket and if you don't vote my way it will be your fault and your fault alone that the world goes to hell in that hand basket.....It made me sick to think that one person feels he has that much power that anyone listening to him will do exactly what he says, how he says it and when he says it. To take that stance (like I have never seen in my 55 years of living) and give that look and lowered demanding voice and such an absolute that I am President now and you must do as I say, is absurd.

He has lost my backing on many a program. He has lost some (but not all, because he is President of the US) respect. I saw it slightly in him before and the warning lights did tinkle a little but then I saw it directly.

Telling folks (maybe in different words) that what he wants to do should have been done decades ago. His plan is the do all end all. If you do not go along with it you are a fool and detroyer of all things good. You are in fact the bad guy and should be punished.

Sorry. Not even Mommy talked to me like that. He is not my Daddy and if he were I would set him staight as well.

What would I say. Dad, look, you are really starting to screw up and if you don't get you head out of your butt all your children are going to lose their love for you.

He is making it so that every single American will be paying for every other American no matter what. Higher energy costs. Outragious regulations.

No new taxes my freaking butt. What does he call it when every American pays out a tremendous amount more out of their pocket to live. What does he call it when no matter what you do or what you buy you will be paying more for it. What does he call it when what he is doing to gain jobs in America comes to the equivelant of about 180,000 dollars per job based on the expenditure to actual job created. To me that is a sicker joke than 500 per toilet seat.

Sorry for the rant. No this has absolutely nothing to do with George Bush. It has to do with what is taking place now. No it does not have to do with failed George Bush policies.

Do not bring up the damn Iraq and Afganistan wars. If it were not George then it would have had to have been Obama. It was absolutely inevitable that we would be in both of those countries sooner or later.....PERIOD.

Lets start speaking sensibley about policies. Lets start talking real life, what is happening.

Way freaking to much...Way to fast....And lets cut the crap with that one more entitlement or program bull. It is simply what the Dems or should I say liberals or what ever you want to call them, have wanted to enact for decades. They are riding on Obamas magic carpet of popularity to push as much thru and as fast as they can push thru before the magic carpet burns up.

[Clark Kilby]

Amen Brother Ted, Amen....Bravo!
My thoughts exactly

[Jerry Peck]

The elevator operator will return shortly and start pushing more buttons. ;)

Which floor should we go to? Women's wear? Men's wear? How about going up a few floors and trying the Righteous Indignation floor where the bar 'I'm Better Than Thou' is located, right next to the head for 'Those Who's Choice Screwed Things Up So Bad In The First Place' where they can piss and moan about trying to recover from Their Choice?

Here we go ... pushing buttons. :D

DUCK! :eek:

[Markus Keller]

Boy, this really pains me. On the surface I have to agree with many of Ted's assertions.:( However, upon scrutiny Ted's assertions are just more of the same, 'the sky is falling' type propaganda. Yes they are all essentially realistic assertions. Most of these things are happening to some extent or another. The argument fails to account for the fact that as individuals in America, we have the freedom to make choices. We can choose to go along with the program or not.
I'm a big believer that Gov is too intrusive and should get the hell out of our lives. Some posts seem to be based on the 'free market' idea. 'Let us all do what we want and the market will balance it out.' Unfortunately, greed, jealousy and stupidity often overcome rational thinking. There are countless examples of why various things need to be regulated for the greater good. I may not like many of these things. On the other hand, I dislike our evermore stratified society less.
The idea that the Dems spend and tax more than the Repubs is nonsense. The Repubs just hide it better.
The fact that we will be paying more, is a result of past pathetic policies on both sides of the isle. Look at the civic infrastructure around your community, that's what all the War money should have been spent on. We will always pay, because that is the price of the society we live in. Care to move to Rwanda or N. Korea? Quit complaining. When you turn on the spigot water comes out.
Want national stimulus? Instead of 'giving' money to the banks, pay off 2 trillion in american plastic debt. The banks would have money, the public would be free to charge up again and stimulate the economy. We are americans, give us the money and we will spend it.:D

[Ron Bibler]

Want national stimulus? Instead of 'giving' money to the banks, pay off 2 trillion in american plastic debt. The banks would have money, the public would be free to charge up again and stimulate the economy. We are americans, give us the money and we will spend it.:D


Markus for Press....:D

Best

Ron

[Michael Larson]

Instead of 'giving' money to the banks, pay off 2 trillion in american plastic debt. The banks would have money, the public would be free to charge up again and stimulate the economy. We are americans, give us the money and we will spend it.:DPeople are busy paying off debt because they fear loosing their job and defaulting on the mortgage of their over priced home.

This has caused a contraction in the economy. That is just an undeniable fact.

We as a nation and individually have been on a decades long spending spree based on easy credit and get now mentality. The jig is up. The time has come to pay the piper.

What we currently have is a debt problem that will not be easily resolved and that we are only making worse.

[Markus Keller]

There is hope, I agree with ML on his latest post.:)
It is true that americans need to stop spending. So many people have such a hard time seeing past the ulterior motives of advertising. Then again, with the job and wage market, many average workers cannot 'save' enough money to actually pay cash for larger ticket items in any reasonable amount of time.
I recently had to by ball joints and tie-rods for our Ford. Made in Taiwan. Until little hunks of steel are once again made in Indiana or Ohio, credit will reign as an evil lord.
I used to mention to friends just a few years ago, that car sales could not be sustained. Even if the car industry comes back, it won't come back to near what it was. So many, especially higher end, car sales were being driven by Home Refi's. Can't afford an $80K car on a 4-8 year conventional car loan? No problem Refi your house and throw it into that.

[Charles Smith]

The Waxman-Markey bill will do all of the following and probably more:

1. Reduce aggregate gross domestic product (GDP) by $9.6 trillion

2. Destroy an average of 1-3 million jobs, every year

3. Raise electricity rates 90 percent after adjusting for inflation

4. Raise inflation-adjusted gasoline prices by 74 percent

5. Raise residential natural gas prices by 55 percent

6. Raise an average family's annual energy bill by $1,500 annually

7. Increase the federal debt by 26 percent, which is $29,150 per person

While the nation has been focused on Michael Jackson and President Obama and his Health Care push this bill has been moved quickly through Congress with no debate and no one who actually read the bill or cared to.

-------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, there are approximately 15 million more homes that are or soon will be "under water" (mortgage owed more than market value)
(prices in Phoenix are down 50%!!)

"the chickens have come home to roost!!"

Thanks Barney! Thanks Sen. Dodd! for all your fine work with Fannie and Freddy.

[Ralph Stakely]

Peck ole buddy,
Your head is so far up Obama's butt, you couldn't see the light if it were 1 mill candlepower.
I used to have great respect for you, but you have taken this forum and distorted it to your "specifications." If someone doesn't agree with you, they are stupid, ignorant, blind, "King W" worshippers, with the mentality of a kindergartener.

You have stooped to name calling and denigration of others to such a low point, that I can no longer respect what you have to say on any point. I did, at one point, appreciate your advice and knowledge pertaining to the inspection business. But, alas, I no longer can stand your rantings, ravings, and one sided biased opinions. Not to mention your lowdown attitude toward anyone with a different opinion than yours.

No, I am not a newby with 3 posts. I have been a member of this forum for as long as, if not longer than you. I just don't sit in front of the screen looking for someone to slap around because "I'm smarter than they."

I regret that this site has sunken to this low point. You, as self appointed board monitor, have said this is no place for religious "talk." Well, "DAD" you have taken your political rantings to the point of being a religion. I feel sorry for you, really I do.

It's regretable that it has come to the point of being so personal, but you "brought" it upon yourself.

Yes I know, you will have some wise-ass retort about me and how dumb I am. But what else can we expect from you.
You take care of yourself now. Your Savior is not gonna do it for you.

May God bless you and keep you in spite of your denial of Him.

Ralph Stakely
Your "OLD" friend.

[Jerry Peck]

Ralph,

Just the kind of posting one would expect from someone who thinks they, and their belief, are better than others.

Your true colors (lack of being christian like) really showed through. It is a shame, but it happens to so many, even most, who profess to be christian then cannot stand by the belief that others are just as equal - which is, after all, what christianity is about.

Other religions may not be, buy, as a supposed believer in "God" - you failed the test.

[Ron Bibler]

Ralph,

Just the kind of posting one would expect from someone who thinks they, and their belief, are better than others.

Your true colors (lack of being christian like) really showed through. It is a shame, but it happens to so many, even most, who profess to be christian then cannot stand by the belief that others are just as equal - which is, after all, what christianity is about.

Other religions may not be, buy, as a supposed believer in "God" - you failed the test.

I always love to see a non believer point out what a Christian is supposed to be like.

Jerry you miss the point of what a believer is and what they are supposed to be like.

Sorry Jerry i can not and no one else can explain this to you...

I can spot one... no problem... but a non believer can not point out a Christian...

How can the dead see the living ? Only Christ can give life to something thats is dead. (you must be born again) or you can not see!

But if you ask him Jerry he can show what a Christian is supposed to be like.

Just trying to help you out of a hot spot Jerry:D

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Ron,

Not in a hot spot, but I see I have taken the elevator up higher by pushing some buttons.

:D

[Ron Bibler]

Ron,

Not in a hot spot, but I see I have taken the elevator up higher by pushing some buttons.

:D


No big deal. Don't sweat it Jerry... For now:eek:

Best

Ron

P.S. Just messing with ya Jerry:D

[Ron Bibler]

Ron,

Not in a hot spot, but I see I have taken the elevator up higher by pushing some buttons.

:D


No big deal. Don't sweat it Jerry... For now:eek:

Best

Ron

P.S. Just messing with ya Jerry:D

[Jerry Peck]

Ron,

Nothing to sweat, just standing here pushing some more buttons trying to figure out where to take this next. The buttons are not labeled so I just have to push trial and error, some work better than expected, some have little effect.

:D

[Michael Larson]

Ron,

Nothing to sweat, just standing here pushing some more buttons trying to figure out where to take this next. The buttons are not labeled so I just have to push trial and error, some work better than expected, some have little effect.

:D
Ah I see, Jerry considers himself the evil puppet master and imagines himself immune to having his strings pulled.:p

[Jerry Peck]

I just pushed another active hot button, I see ... :eek:

If only these buttons were labeled ... :rolleyes:

I said "hot button" - here comes Ron telling me I need his infrared camera to check for "hot buttons". :cool:

:D

[Charles Smith]

The Green Police are coming to Britain

This is what will happen here! Green Gestapo!

If you don't think it can happen here "your head is buried in a huge pile of denial"

-----------------------------------------------------

Whether the British public is ready or not, here come the EnviroCops. The Times of London reports that simply selling carbon credits hasn’t been enough to keep companies from potentially violating carbon-emissions limits. Now they will send green-jacketed police to monitor their operations:

The agency is creating a unit of about 50 auditors and inspectors, complete with warrant cards and the power to search company premises to enforce the Carbon Reduction Commitment (CRC), which comes into effect next year.

Decked out in green jackets, the enforcers will be able to demand access to company property, view power meters, call up electricity and gas bills and examine carbon-trading records for an estimated 6,000 British businesses. Ed Mitchell, head of business performance and regulation at the Environment Agency, said the squad would help to bring emissions under control. “Climate change and CO2 are the world’s biggest issues right now. The Carbon Reduction Commitment is one of the ways in which Britain is responding.”

The formation of the green police overcomes a psychological hurdle in the battle against climate change. Ministers have long recognised the need to have new categories of taxes and criminal offences for CO2 emissions, but fear a repetition of the fuel tax protests in 2000 when lorry drivers blockaded refineries.

The central unit, based in Warrington, Cheshire, can call on the agency’s national network of hundreds of pollution inspectors, many of whom will soon be trained in CO2 monitoring.

It will also be able to demand energy bills from utilities without the companies under investigation knowing they are being watched.

Of course, the British authorities do not have a Fourth Amendment to limit them, but even this may be a bit much for Brits to swallow. Green-jacketed inspectors can descend on any business at any time and demand access to facilities. They can look up utility bills without even informing the business. Not for nothing did George Orwell set 1984 in Great Britain.

How long after we pass cap-and-trade will the US see the arrival of green-jacketed EnviroCops? Probably more quickly than the British did. The entire point of cap-and-trade is to punish those who dare release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, and slapping an artificial-shortage system on an almost unmeasurable process will guarantee fraud as well as genuine lack of capability for compliance. Fines will accrue even more revenue to the federal government. The big question is whether Congress will bother adhering to our Fourth Amendment, or simply stick with the British invasion-of-privacy plan for better “efficiency”.

[Ron Bibler]

Sorry Charley BUT SAN FRANCISCO has this kind of thing in place. I think they call it an 80% or 90% Recycle program and they check your trash cans and if you did not sort your trash correctly they FINE You:eek:

Me I don't Recycle one thing it all goes into trash can.:D

Best

Ron

[Michael Larson]

I just pushed another active hot button, I see ... :eek:

If only these buttons were labeled ... :rolleyes:

I said "hot button" - here comes Ron telling me I need his infrared camera to check for "hot buttons". :cool:

:DJerry,

It's not my fault you consistently get it wrong when it comes to political thought.

BTW- Keep pushing them buttons.

Look for the one marked. "Get a clue"

[Jerry Peck]

BTW- Keep pushing them buttons.

Look for the one marked. "Get a clue"

Michael,

I can't, I've already boxed that one up and sent it to you - should be arriving any day now ... hopefully anyway ... maybe then you will have a clue and can then forward it on to your buddies.

It'll be in the box marked "Handle With Care -Learning Experience Inside".

[Michael Larson]

Michael,

I can't, I've already boxed that one up and sent it to you - should be arriving any day now ... hopefully anyway ... maybe then you will have a clue and can then forward it on to your buddies.

It'll be in the box marked "Handle With Care -Learning Experience Inside".The man with no real answers and box full of ersatz wit speaks.

Thanks for playing.:D

[Jerry Peck]

Thanks for playing.:D


Thank YOU for playing. :D

Like throwing a line in and having the littlest fish in the pond go for it before the others do (because they know better).

[Michael Larson]

Thank YOU for playing. :D

Like throwing a line in and having the littlest fish in the pond go for it before the others do (because they know better).

You should be more careful where you toss your bait. :D
http://stlouiscore.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/jaws.jpg

[Jerry Peck]

Why?

That's just a little ol' fishy.

Nothing to worry about, not unless you are in the pond with it, as you are ... :eek:

:D

[Michael Larson]

Why?

That's just a little ol' fishy.

Nothing to worry about, not unless you are in the pond with it, as you are ... :eek:

:DYou flatter yourself but most have come to expect that of you. :D

[Jerry Peck]

You flatter yourself but most have come to expect that of you. :D

Nope, not flattering myself, simply pointing your position out.

For the sake of the rest of the members, you may continue with your charade of thinking you are the one, so be it, go for it, I will sit back and watch you sprain your arms congratulating yourself for doing and accomplishing nothing in all the posts above. :) (Or anyone who wants to chime in for you. :D )

[Michael Larson]

Nope, not flattering myself, simply pointing your position out.

For the sake of the rest of the members, you may continue with your charade of thinking you are the one, so be it, go for it, I will sit back and watch you sprain your arms congratulating yourself for doing and accomplishing nothing in all the posts above. :) (Or anyone who wants to chime in for you. :D )Now Jerry, have you taken up lying as well.

Or is that just par for the course with Obamites?

Shame on you.:(

[Charles Smith]

Now AlGoracle is calling anyone who doesn't buy into GWarming "Nazis"

What fine oratory from the man who could have been #43!!!!!

Hot Air » Blog Archive » Gore: Fighting global warming is like fighting Nazis; Update: ToL scrubs its story of Nazi references (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/07/gore-fighting-global-warming-is-like-fighting-nazis/)

Look over the descriptions of the following 2 houses and see if you can tell which belongs to “The one who calls himself an environmentalist.”

#1. A 20-room mansion(not including 8 bathrooms) heated by natural gas, add on a pool(and a pool house) and a separate guest house all heated by gas. In ONE MONTH ALONE this mansion consumes more energy than the average American household in an ENTIRE YEAR. The average bill for electricity and natural gas runs over $2,400.00
per month. In natural gas alone(which the last time we checked was a fossil fuel), this property consumes more than 20 times the national average for an American home. This house is not in a northern or Midwestern “snow belt,” either. It’s in the South.

#2. Designed by an architecture professor at a leading national university, this house incorporates every “green” feature current home construction can provide. The house contains only 4,000 square feet(4 bedrooms) and is nestled on an arid high prairie in the American southwest. A central closet in the house holds geothermal heat pumps drawing ground water through pipes sunk 300 feet into the
ground. The water (usually 67 degrees F.) heats the house in winter and cools it in summer. The system uses no fossil fuels such as oil or natural gas, and it consumes 25% of the electricity required for a conventional heating/cooling
system. Rainwater from the roof is collected and funneled into a 25,000 gallon underground cistern. Wastewater from showers, sinks and toilets goes into underground purifying tanks and then into the cistern. The collected after then
irrigates the land surrounding the house. Flowers and shrubs native to the area blend the property into the surrounding rural landscape.

HOUSE #1 (20 room energy guzzling mansion) is outside of Nashville, Tennessee. It is the abode of that renowned environmentalist-AL GORE!

HOUSE #2. (model eco-friendly house) is on a ranch near Crawford, Texas. Also known as “the Texas White House,” it is the private residence of the President of the United States, George W. Bush.
- wolf2012 on Debbie Schussel

[Markus Keller]

Hard to spot the christians? I hadn't noticed. They are usually the people who are apologizing for cheating on their wives, playing with little boys, stealing money from the church and old people. It's of course, NEVER THEIR FAULT. They were weak in their faith, satan made them do it, sexy MTV videos, blah, blah. It's Ok though, God has forgiven them and they'll do better next time. Makes one so warm and fuzzy all over, and full of crap.
I tend to be amazed when people don't recycle. It defies logic, or does it define selfishness? Our world will be pretty much the same as we are used to for us and probably our kids. Beyond that it is likely a very different place. We have been the predominant users of our world's resources in the past. Some seem to not realize the upcoming competition on that stage. China and India are moving up. They want part of the pie we have been chomping on. The fight for natural resources will be the next big conflict. Globalization will contract and we will start making car parts in Indy and Ohio again.

[Michael Larson]

I tend to be amazed when people don't recycle. It defies logic...Sounds oh so logical but are you sure?

Recycling waste uses double the energy consumption and causes twice the pollution from factories, trucks, byproducts etc. (http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/11735/Recycling_Your_Time_Can_Be_Better_Spent.html)

Preparing the recyclable material uses more energy and creates as much waste and byproducts as using raw materials.
Lets take a look at a plastic pop bottle for example and start at the beginning of the recycle chain.

[Charles Smith]

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/07/08/epa-admits-cap-and-trade-won’t-work/

Moreover, it should be a red flag when the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) admits cap and trade won’t work. At yesterday’s hearing before the Senate Environment Public Works Committee, EPA Administrator Jackson confirmed an EPA analysis showing that unilateral U.S. action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions would have no effect on climate. Moreover, when presented with an EPA chart depicting that outcome, Energy Secretary Steven Chu said he disagreed with EPA’s analysis.

“I believe the central parts of the [EPA] chart are that U.S. action alone will not impact world CO2 levels,” Administrator Jackson said.
Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.) presented the chart to both Jackson and Secretary Chu, which shows that meaningful emissions reductions cannot occur without aggressive action by China, India, and other developing countries. “I am encouraged that Administrator Jackson agrees that unilateral action by the U.S. will be all cost for no climate gain,” Sen. Inhofe said. “With China and India recently issuing statements of defiant opposition to mandatory emissions controls, acting alone through the job-killing Waxman-Markey bill would impose severe economic burdens on American consumers, businesses, and families, all without any impact on climate.”

Getting China and India on board with a carbon reduction plan is highly unlikely. Even then, a multilateral approach does not guarantee a successful system or the ultimate goal of global temperature reduction. Take a look at Europe:

Cap-and-trade regimes have advantages, notably the ability to set a limit on emissions and to integrate with other countries. But they are complex and vulnerable to lobbying and special pleading, and they do not guarantee success.

The experience of the European Union is Exhibit A. Emissions targets were set too high. Too many pollution allowances were given away to industry. The value of a carbon credit plummeted. Companies made windfall profits by charging customers more for energy while selling allowances they didn’t need. And the Europeans have not had much success reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Disputes on the next round of reductions led to the creation of a two-tiered system to appease Eastern European countries fearful of the cost to their industries.”

[Ron Bibler]

Got this from Nolan's post.

YouTube - Scalise: 'We're Setting Up A Global Warming Gestapo!' (Full) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9FX1fojAJM&feature=channel_page)


Best

Ron

[Markus Keller]

Sorry ML but once again you are drawing a false conclusion based on limited information. Kind of like when you listen to your buddy Rush and think you actually know what's going on. :D
I've read a lot of articles about recycling. Many contend recycling uses more energy than it saves, some say it breaks about even, a few state it has a positive gain.
Recycling isn't the problem. How we handle recycling is really the issue. As long as we continue to collect recycling as a separate extraction chain, return will likely stay low.
I've thought for many years one of the best ways we could recycle construction debris is to have large dedicated cardboard and scrap lumber dumpsters in every HD, Lowes, Menards parking lot. The cardboard from a kitchen job can fill a regular van.
Waste not, want not. I recycle because I see benefit in not throwing good stuff that could be re-used into a landfill to rot.

[Ron Bibler]

Waste not, want not. I recycle because I see benefit in not throwing good stuff that could be re-used into a landfill to rot.


You Recycle because it makes you feel good.

I don't Recycle a dang thing... wast of my time. chuck in a big hole and when that one is full dig a new one.

Bottom line we have more stuff the we can ever use. the earth just keeps producing everything we need. its has never stop making OIL l:eek: And it never will stop making the stuff.

So stop thinking you did your part. you didn't :eek: .

Now this is not to say that we should not do the wright thing. no one wants dirty water or air. Lets just go about it in a correct way.

I Recycling work then let it stand on its own with any GOV. Support.

Best

Ron

Best

Ron

[Markus Keller]

Last year I went by a jobsite. The union guys had thrown about 20+ 10' threaded rod into the dumpster. 2 months later I needed to break a couple stainless steel panels (also recycled). Ran into an HVAC guy who had a hydraulic break. Traded the rods for the break work.
Recycling doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy. I see economic advantage in it. Pay to fill up a dumpster with cardboard etc., or put it in the truck and drop it at the recycling place across the street from HD when making a material run?

[Ron Bibler]

Thats not Rcycling.

Best

Ron

[A.D. Miller]

You Recycle because it makes you feel good.

I don't Recycle a dang thing... wast of my time. chuck in a big hole and when that one is full dig a new one.

Bottom line we have more stuff the we can ever use. the earth just keeps producing everything we need. its has never stop making OIL l:eek: And it never will stop making the stuff.

So stop thinking you did your part. you didn't :eek: .

Now this is not to say that we should not do the wright thing. no one wants dirty water or air. Lets just go about it in a correct way.

I Recycling work then let it stand on its own with any GOV. Support.

Best

Ron

Best

Ron

RB: I see you are smoking crack already this morning. Give it a break.:D

[Michael Larson]

Sorry ML but once again you are drawing a false conclusion based on limited information. Kind of like when you listen to your buddy Rush and think you actually know what's going on. :DExcuse me but what makes your conclusion that recycling is cost effective is correct when other evidence says it is not?

You can't just use your "feel good" to decide which is right.

Most of the articles I read in support of recycling are done by environmentalist groups and of course we all know they aren't biased.:rolleyes:

Hey, I recycle because my community requires it. Does it make sense to come once a week with a separate truck and driver to collect my used cardboard and glass?

Probably not.

BTW- I recycle my Aluminum cans separately because they actually have some value. We have collection bins at our church for Aluminum that goes to support missions work. It uses all volunteer labor so it works out very well.

[Markus Keller]

Once again sorry ML, I don't know what you are reading sometimes. I never said, recycling is cost effective in any absolute manner. You have proven my point for me better than I could. Yes it is stupid that a separate truck comes at a different time to pick up recycling. That scenario is one often sited in articles that show recycling to have a negative net gain. On the flip side articles that show recycling to have a break even or positive net gain, site procedure where recycle is integrated into the normal extraction chain. Thereby NOT using additional resources. The recycling with your church would likely be a positive net gain scenario.
Want economic stimulus and jobs? Instead of giving money to the banks. The Feds could have bought new garbage trucks for Muni's. This would have created jobs for truck builders and suppliers; improved recycling extraction and reduced Muni fuel costs with newer better trucks.
So yes, big O could have done better with the money. Does that make you happy Ron?

[Michael Larson]

Once again sorry ML, I don't know what you are reading sometimes. I never said, recycling is cost effective in any absolute manner. I read this from you

I tend to be amazed when people don't recycle. It defies logic, or does it define selfishness? Perhaps I have misunderstood you but you can explain it to me I'm sure. You seem to be a strong supporter of recycling. Why are the real costs so often ignored?

How does it defy logic if a group chooses not to recycle if costs more than not doing it. That sounds like preservation of capital to me.

The problem is I don't have a choice. The enviros have decided I must recycle and had enacted into law recycling mandates and made sure it gets paid for by me in my taxes and disposal fees.

Simply put, if the cost of buying new is less than the cost of recycling it makes no economic sense and is a waste of money that could be used for something else.

Aluminum is probably the only exception as it is easily reprocessed into useable products in the recycling chain.

The numbers just don't work for paper, plastic and glass.