Furnace vent foil taped

[Brent Crouse]

This is a basement furnace. Notice the unused vent that has been closed off using foil tape. I assume this was meant to be for the water heater, but the water heater is electric, so it was not needed. Is this an acceptable method of sealing this vent, or does it need to be replaced with a single vent?

[Ron Bibler]

No! Need to replace that section with the proper B-vent pipe bell.

No Tape is approved for B-vents. Not that I known of.

Best

Ron

[Nick Ostrowski]

Any time you see foil tape on any flue pipe, it's wrong.

[Brent Crouse]

Thanks guys. As you can see they have wrapped some of the joints with foil tape as well.

[Brent Crouse]

This pic shows more foil tape.

[MaMa Mount]

See talk about the use of foil tape but no comments as to why you should not. Why should it not be used.

MamaMount

[Ron Bibler]

See talk about the use of foil tape but no comments as to why you should not. Why should it not be used.

MamaMount

Its not rated, Fire hazard, It will come loose from the heat and vent the gas into the room. I think there is more:eek:

Best

Ron

[neal lewis]

Ron, please explain how loose foil tape on the exhaust vent will allow products of combustion to enter the room. Isn't the vent under negative pressure?

[Jerry Peck]

This pic shows more foil tape.

Also shows improper primary condensate line and not trap; no secondary condensate line; improperly mounted box for electrical; no bushing around low voltage cable; etc.

[Ted Menelly]

Did anyone notice that "Mamma Mount" signed his/her name Tony after his/her reply and than when I made mention of it there was an immediate edit changing it back to MM.

Just curious if anyone else noticed. The smidgen of trust just got thrown out the window.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Did anyone notice that "Mamma Mount" signed his/her name Tony after his/her reply and than when I made mention of it there was an immediate edit changing it back to MM.

Didn't notice it. I thought that whenever someone changes a post, it says edit under it........ So I edited mine and it does not say edited, what's the deal?



Tony......:D

[John Arnold]

Here's what Tony had to say about MaMa in another thread:

"... I believe that MaMa is a joke! A made up person ...she is the biggest fraud on the board..."

So, there you have it. Tony and MaMa couldn't be the same person.

Wait a minute ....

[Brent Crouse]

Also shows improper primary condensate line and not trap; no secondary condensate line; improperly mounted box for electrical; no bushing around low voltage cable; etc.

JP, got most of that, but I'm not seeing what is wrong with the mounting of the electrical box. Is it not allowed to be mounted to the unit? Please explain.

[Jerry Peck]

Didn't notice it. I thought that whenever someone changes a post, it says edit under it........ So I edited mine and it does not say edited, what's the deal?



Tony......:D


Tony, :D

If you edit it right away, within a minute or maybe two, it does not show as an edit, but after some set time then the edit shows up.

[Jerry Peck]

JP, got most of that, but I'm not seeing what is wrong with the mounting of the electrical box. Is it not allowed to be mounted to the unit? Please explain.

Brent,

There is a big old notch cut into the cabinet there which likely is not supposed to be cut out there.

Being as that furnace has the fan for the air conditioning system, it is part of the air conditioning system and the disconnect is not allowed to be mounted where "The disconnecting means shall not be located on panels that are designed to allow access to the air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment or to obscure the equipment nameplate(s)."

[Jim Luttrall]

If memory serves me correctly, there is a notch in the furnace cover on these units where the electrical box is attached. One for the electrical connections and one for the gas line. The cover should slip on and off with no problem with that arrangement.

[Brent Crouse]

If memory serves me correctly, there is a notch in the furnace cover on these units where the electrical box is attached. One for the electrical connections and one for the gas line. The cover should slip on and off with no problem with that arrangement.

Your memory is good, that notch appeared to be made for the box and the other is for the gas line. They are factory notches.

Thanks again for the help, guys!!!

[Jerry Shipman]

The door is made with the notch for the electrical box connection, although the mount job is less than desirable.
The condensate does need a trap, but the furnace is in a basement, so I don't think a secondary drain is required.
The b-vent is under negative pressure, so no problem with venting into the living space. If the vent becomes blocked, there's a draft safeguard switch that trips and takes the furnace off-line.
One last thing. What's going on with the door in the picture? The push-in "nut" that the door's thumb-screw screws into is exposed above the door, and the side edge of the door does not match up with the side edge of the furnace. What is holding the door onto the furnace?

[Jerry Peck]

The condensate does need a trap, but the furnace is in a basement, so I don't think a secondary drain is required.

The secondary condensate drain is required by both the code and the manufacturer's installation instructions. Regardless of location.

[Bob Harper]

"The b-vent is under negative pressure, so no problem with venting into the living space. If the vent becomes blocked, there's a draft safeguard switch that trips and takes the furnace off-line."

You hope! In the case presented, there is an unprotected breech in the venting. Should the vent termination become blocked, the furnace could easily vent out through the taped 'seal' without tripping any of the three primary safety controls in a fan assisted 80% Cat.I furnace-pressure sw., flame rollout sw., and high limit sw. That's if those safeties are even working.
yes, there is a problem when you vent into the living space;-).

Last time I checked, tin tape, even if listed to UL 181, is NOT an approved vent connector material.

The vent connector is unsupported. Any pics of the appliance connector and a close up of the connection to the vent?
Thx,
Bob

[Jerry Shipman]

The secondary condensate drain is required by both the code and the manufacturer's installation instructions. Regardless of location.


From the manufacturer:

NOTE:

If unit is located in or above a living space where damage


may result from condensate overflow, a field--supplied, external


condensate pan should be installed under the entire unit, and a

secondary condensate line (with appropriate trap) should be run

from the unit into the pan.



A secondary drain is NOT required by the manufacturer, but the installation does state that all local codes should be followed. Most local codes only state it to be necessary if damage from condensate can occurr

[Jerry Peck]

From the manufacturer:


NOTE:

If unit is located in or above a living space where damage


may result from condensate overflow, a field--supplied, external


condensate pan should be installed under the entire unit, and a


secondary condensate line (with appropriate trap) should be run

from the unit into the pan.

A secondary drain is NOT required by the manufacturer, but the installation does state that all local codes should be followed. Most local codes only state it to be necessary if damage from condensate can occurr



Jerry,

"A secondary drain is NOT required by the manufacturer,"

I hate to be the one to break this news to you, but the above DOES NOT state that.

All that above states is "external condensate pan should be installed under the entire unit", then it states to run the secondary drain line to THAT external pan, not elsewhere are provided/allowed/required by the code.

Remember, BOTH the code AND the manufacturer's installation instructions MUST be met - the most restrictive of which applies.

[Jerry Shipman]

Agreed, the quote from the manufacturers install manual is not the most appropriate for the question at hand.

"Remember, BOTH the code AND the manufacturer's installation instructions MUST be met - the most restrictive of which applies."

Agreed. Both must be met.
But, your statement that the manufacturer requires a secondary drain pan was incorrect. No where is it stated this is so. And, as I stated before, most local codes only require a secondary drain if using the equipment in an application where condensation will cause damage. An unfinished basement with a concrete floor, such as the one being discussed, is not one of those applications.

[Jerry Peck]

But, your statement that the manufacturer requires a secondary drain pan was incorrect. No where is it stated this is so.

Do you have the ENTIRE manufacturer's installation instructions?

While THAT SECTION does not state it is required, THAT SECTION is talking about the external (auxiliary) drain pan, and THAT SECTION does not address the secondary condensate line other than to state that it much terminate into that external pan when the external pan is installed.


And, as I stated before, most local codes only require a secondary drain if using the equipment in an application where condensation will cause damage.

The IRC is "most" local codes, and it requires a secondary drain line. Therefore "most" local codes would require a secondary drain line regardless of where the equipment is installed.

The secondary drain line is there to protect THE EQUIPMENT, not its surroundings, protecting the surroundings is what the auxiliary drain pan (the external pan) is for.


An unfinished basement with a concrete floor, such as the one being discussed, is not one of those applications.

It is a location which would require a secondary drain line, yes.

It MAY (or may not) be a location which would require an auxiliary drain pan ... in most cases, though, the auxiliary drain pan would be required ... either or both the manufacturer's installation instructions or the code - regardless of location, and allowing for the options listed in the code (and any other options in the manufacturer's installation instructions should there be any which fall within the code).

[Jerry Shipman]

Actually, I DO have the ENTIRE manufacturers installation instructions.
Before continuing to question my knowledge of it, do a few things. Look at the badge on the front of the furnace, and find out where the engineering for every piece of equipment in that picture is located. Next, look at my profile for my occupation and the state I live in. Coincidence?
I assure you, I know what's in the manual. A secondary drain is NOT required by the manufacturers installation instructions. In fact, there is a reminder to install the plastic plug in the extra condensate drain fitting.

As I don't have a copy of the IRC at my desk, I can't comment on thier requirements, but, I would like to know where it says a secondary drain line is REQUIRED?

[Brandon Whitmore]

See IRC M1411.3.1

"A secondary drain or auxiliary drain pan shall be required for each cooling or evaporator coil where damage to any building components will occur as a result of overflow from the drain piping."

[Brent Crouse]

Any pics of the appliance connector and a close up of the connection to the vent?
Thx,
Bob

Nope, sorry Bob, those are the only pics I took.

Thanks again for everyone's input.