Gas pipe extending from the sub-structure

[Ron Bibler]

New furnace has been install in the attic. the old wall furnace duct with interior vent is now being used to run the Gas pipe from the sub-area to the new furnace in the attic.

Q. Is this not a fire hazard ? Should this old vent be remove and the gas pipe installed in another way?

Second Q. The condenstate drain pipe was just blowing a lot of cold air into the attic. I have never had one do this before. any info ?


Any help please.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Q. Is this not a fire hazard ? Should this old vent be remove and the gas pipe installed in another way?

Correct, yes it is a fire hazard. That needs to be fireblocked at the floor and at the ceiling levels.


Second Q. The condenstate drain pipe was just blowing a lot of cold air into the attic. I have never had one do this before. any info ?

Not trapped. It is required to be trapped.

Either that or not installed and you are referring to the opening in the unit, in which case add that the condensate line was not installed, and then not trapped.

[Jim Luttrall]

This get a lot of play in my reports.
The first is pulled from manufacturers instructions (Lennox I think)
and the second I added the blue to get the point of the water standing in the trap to block air movement.

[Jerry Peck]

Jim,

The second figure is wrong, it is a running trap ... where the inlet is the same height as the outlet. Running traps are not allowed.

Note the difference in height between the inlet and the outlet in the first drawing.

[Ron Bibler]

Why would the condensate drain pipe have so much cold air coming out ?

Its providing more cold air then some of the bedrooms are getting:eek:

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Why would the condensate drain pipe have so much cold air coming out ?

Its providing more cold air then some of the bedrooms are getting:eek:

Best

Ron

Because it is a blow-through (positive pressure) type rather than the normal suck-through (negative pressure) type.

The blower is pressurizing the compartment the condensate line is coming out of, blowing cold air out that hole.

[scott wright]

According to the drawings, the vent is on the wrong side of the trap. This would cause the air to flow uninhibited from the drain, right? I am only curious because I am not sure how much air will flow from a condenstion line.

[Jerry Peck]

According to the drawings, the vent is on the wrong side of the trap.

Scott,

The vent is on the correct side of the trap.

If the vent were on the other side of the trap, there would not be any reason to have the trap as the air would blow out or suck in before the condensate reached the trap.

[scott wright]

Hi Jerry, I just want to make sure I have this right. I was referring the manufacturers drawing against the picture provided by Ron. In Ron's picture the vent is above the trap(which I was saying is on the wrong side and will release air into the attic). I am assuming that the manufacturers drawing is correct. Right?

Scott

[Gunnar Alquist]

Because it is a blow-through (positive pressure) type rather than the normal suck-through (negative pressure) type.
The blower is pressurizing the compartment the condensate line is coming out of, blowing cold air out that hole.

JP,

What do you mean "negative pressure type"? How else would the condensate drain be run? The A/C coil box is under positive pressure.


Scott,

The vent is on the correct side of the trap. If the vent were on the other side of the trap, there would not be any reason to have the trap as the air would blow out or suck in before the condensate reached the trap.

The first diagram that Jim posted shows the cleanout/vent after the trap, but the photo in Ron's post shows the vent before the trap. The diagramthat I have also has the vent after the trap. I don't get it.

[Jim Luttrall]

A vent is a vent whether on a sink, toilet, tub or A/C drain. The entire function of a trap is to stop air flow. Keep water in the trap and sewer gas and conditioned air cannot flow through the pipe.
The vent goes downstream of the trap. The vent is there to let air into the drain line so that the water goes down the drain instead of hanging around like Coke in a drinking straw with your thumb over it, or sucking the trap dry.

There are coils on the suction side of the blower fan (negative pressure) and coils on the pressure side of the fan depending on the configuration of the system. Bottom line is that you lose conditioned air from the system or introduce unconditioned air into the system depending on whether the system sucks or blows.;)

[Ron Bibler]

A vent is a vent whether on a sink, toilet, tub or A/C drain. The entire function of a trap is to stop air flow. Keep water in the trap and sewer gas and conditioned air cannot flow through the pipe.
The vent goes downstream of the trap. The vent is there to let air into the drain line so that the water goes down the drain instead of hanging around like Coke in a drinking straw with your thumb over it, or sucking the trap dry.

There are coils on the suction side of the blower fan (negative pressure) and coils on the pressure side of the fan depending on the configuration of the system. Bottom line is that you lose conditioned air from the system or introduce unconditioned air into the system depending on whether the system sucks or blows.;)

Good point Jim. But this is an odd set up. The line pointing down into the pan is blowing cold air into the pan/attic. the drain line with the vent/trap is blowing cold air into the attic. I have never saw one blow like this one is. I think the attic is the coldest room in the house:eek:

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

Hi Jerry, I just want to make sure I have this right. I was referring the manufacturers drawing against the picture provided by Ron. In Ron's picture the vent is above the trap(which I was saying is on the wrong side and will release air into the attic). I am assuming that the manufacturers drawing is correct. Right?

Scott

Oops ... correct, the one in Ron's photo is wrong, the drawing is correct.

Also the trap in Ron's photo is incorrect as you do not use a tee at a 45 degree angle for a trap. Additionally, there is no trap on the secondary condensate line from the unit to the auxiliary pan.

[Jerry Peck]

What do you mean "negative pressure type"? How else would the condensate drain be run? The A/C coil box is under positive pressure.


There are coils on the suction side of the blower fan (negative pressure) and coils on the pressure side of the fan depending on the configuration of the system.

Gunnar,

Did Jim explain it better than I did?


Bottom line is that you lose conditioned air from the system or introduce unconditioned air into the system depending on whether the system sucks or blows.;)

Correct.

And if you walk by the end of the condensate line outside and you hear it "slurping", the trap is insufficient and the water in the trap is being sucked up (negative pressure type unit), and when the unit takes a gulp of air and equalizes the pressure, the water goes back down into the trap, builds up pressure, trap is not sufficient, and it slurps and gulps again - the will repeat itself over and over and over.

If you walk by the end of the condensate line outside and you see it 'spitting' condensate out, you have the same as the above except the system is a positive pressure system.

I have seen both many times and it took me a while to figure out what was going on. In all cases a properly sized and located trap solved the problem.

[Cobra Cook]

The purpose of a trap on an air handler is to allow condensate to flow out of the unit while it is running without allowing air to blow out. The trap shown with the 45 ell will not hold enough water to be strong enough to prevent conditioned air to escape thus would be one of the reasons for air to escape. You do not need a vent on an AC condensate drain due to the fact that the condensate only trickles out into the 3/4" PVC pipe. Good installers will put a tee and a short length of pipe with a cap so if the trap gets stopped up, it makes it easy to unstop without having to cut the pipe.You do not need a trap on the secondary drain, infact what you do need is a water sensor that will cut the unit off when water enters the drain pan and quickly lets you know when the main trap or pan is stopped up. Stuff fiberglass into the metal duct it will not be a fire hazard, that’s better than having a pipe running up the side of the house. Cobra

[Jerry Peck]

You do not need a trap on the secondary drain, ...

Actually, you do.

The manufacturer requires it.


... infact what you do need is a water sensor that will cut the unit off when water enters the drain pan and quickly lets you know when the main trap or pan is stopped up.

You are describing an auxiliary pan but calling it the secondary drain. The "secondary drain" is from the "secondary drain" outlet at the unit from the units condensate pan.

You are now describing the auxiliary drain pan drain, in which case you would be somewhat correct as you can have EITHER a drain OR a shut off switch OR BOTH.


Stuff fiberglass into the metal duct it will not be a fire hazard, that’s better than having a pipe running up the side of the house.

Huh?

[Cobra Cook]

You have two condensate drains on an air handler; the primary is the one the manufactures installation instructions show where the drain pipe should connected and usually describes what type of trap is required. The secondary drain is a pan made out of metal or plastic that sits under the air handler and usually has a 3/4" pipe threaded fitting where the secondary drain pipe is connected. No manufactory requires this line to be trapped as it is not necessary. I prefer this method and pipe that line to where when water comes out it will be immediately noticed by the home owner to investigate and do not lose their AC as that is what happens when the switch cuts out. I will also add a water sensing switch in that pan if the customer asks. Some areas require it.

[A.D. Miller]

Why would the condensate drain pipe have so much cold air coming out ?

Its providing more cold air then some of the bedrooms are getting:eek:

Best

Ron

RB: I pray for these in the summer. After a long trapeze act through 14" of insulation in a 140° attic, it is a nice breath of cold air.;)

[Jerry Shipman]

No manufactory requires this line to be trapped as it is not necessary.

Most DO require the secondary to also be trapped. From Carrier/Bryant installation manuals:


NOTE:

If unit is located in or above a living space where damage

may result from condensate overflow, a field--supplied, external
condensate pan should be installed under the entire unit, and a
secondary condensate line (with appropriate trap) should be run
from the unit into the pan.


The trap on the secondary serves the same purpose as the trap on the primary. It's there to prevent conditioned air from escaping through the condensate line.

[Mike Gault]

Use caution recommending a cap for the stand pipes (even when cold air is being 'lost' to the attic space)

I know of several (well many, sadly) instances where a cap has caused an overflow situation from the coil pan due to the increase in pressure across the opening within the AHU that stops the condensate from being able to properly run into the primary piping. :-(

[Jim Luttrall]

Apples and oranges guys.
As Jerry is trying to describe with his typically "gotcha" style, there is a breakdown in communication because of improper terminology.
Typical (not all inclusive) attic system includes:
Primary Drain pan - provided by the manufacturer under the A/C coil
Primary drain line - is connected to the primary drain pan and needs a proper trap and vent (downstream of trap)
Secondary drain port - provided by the manufacturer and is typically just a secondary opening off of the primary drain pan located a little higher so it is only operative in the event of failure of the primary drain. This also needs a proper trap. Around here these are usually dumped into the auxiliary drain pan below the unit and have no drain line extended to a remote location and thus no vent is needed.
Auxiliary or emergency drain pan - is a field supplied pan installed below the unit with a drain run to a conspicuous location. No trap is required since this pan is outside the thermal envelope and has no air pressure difference and is not connected to the sewer system.

As we have discussed many times, both the primary and secondary drains attached to the unit need traps and vents downstream of the traps in order to stop air flow.
There are exceptions such as safety switches that can be substituted that I will leave to others more given to detail and minutia.
On a side note, the secondary drain should be kept primed to prevent air loss due to trap seal evaporation, I recommend mineral oil to prime the trap initially.

[Jerry Peck]

You have two condensate drains on an air handler;

That part is correct.


the primary is the one the manufactures installation instructions show where the drain pipe should connected and usually describes what type of trap is required.

That part is PARTIALLY correct.

There are TWO condensate drains at the air handler.

The LOWER one is the primary condensate drain and is the one which the condensate flows out of.

The HIGHER one is the secondary condensate drain, it goes into THE SAME CONDENSATE PAN as the primary does, it is higher than the primary so that when the primary condensate drain backs up, the condensate overflows into the secondary condensate drain before it overflows the condensate pan in the air handler.


The secondary drain is a pan made out of metal or plastic that sits under the air handler and usually has a 3/4" pipe threaded fitting where the secondary drain pipe is connected.

Again, PARTIALLY correct in that the pan you are describing is called the AUXILIARY drain pan, and yes, it is under the unit.

It MAY HAVE ... or ... MAY NOT HAVE ... a condensate drain from it. If it does not have a condensate drain from it then there will be a shut off switch in the AUXILIARY drain pan which shuts the system off when water begins to collect in the AUXILIARY drain pan.


No manufactory requires this line to be trapped as it is not necessary.

That is correct.

HOWEVER, in your previous post you stated that the SECONDARY drain line did not need to be trapped, and the SECONDARY drain line IS REQUIRED to be trapped.

There is no requirement for the AUXILIARY drain line, it is one of the options, and, when that AUXILIARY drain line is installed, you are correct - it does not need a trap.

[Randy Cooper]

Why would the condensate drain pipe have so much cold air coming out ?

Its providing more cold air then some of the bedrooms are getting:eek:

Best

Ron

Because its not connected to an approved plubing fixture or disposal area(CMC 310.1) it must be terminating outside. The pan shall teminate to a location that can be readily observed (CMC 310.2) this means out side over a window; I would expect that some draft would be coming from this pipe.

Furthermore, traps are not required in condensate disposal piping per section 310.1 of the 2007 California Mecahnical Code. An approved plumbing fixiture is an indirect connection to a P trap. There are nice illistrations iof this in the 2006 UPC training manual. I would expect a trap in the condensate piping only if the manufacturer required it.

[Robert Dalga]

Jumping in a little late here, but lets get back to the gas pipe. I don't see anything wrong with the setup as long as that old abandoned duct runs from the crawlspace to the attic. Where's the fire hazard in that? It's just a chase isn't it?

[Randy Cooper]

Jumping in a little late here, but lets get back to the gas pipe. I don't see anything wrong with the setup as long as that old abandoned duct runs from the crawlspace to the attic. Where's the fire hazard in that? It's just a chase isn't it?

Beacuse the CBC 717 .2.3 requires fire blocking between concealed vertical stud wall or partion spaces and horizontal spaces, if the ducts where still hooked up to the unit it would be ok. Also the gas line is supported correctly.

[Randy Cooper]

[/color]


It MAY HAVE ... or ... MAY NOT HAVE ... a condensate drain from it. If it does not have a condensate drain from it then there will be a shut off switch in the AUXILIARY drain pan which shuts the system off when water begins to collect in the AUXILIARY drain pan.





Not Ture, Saftey shut off switching is not allowed in the CMC and would only be allowed as an alternative material aproved by the Building Offical per CMC 108.7

[Jerry Peck]

Not Ture, Saftey shut off switching is not allowed in the CMC and would only be allowed as an alternative material aproved by the Building Offical per CMC 108.7

Randy,

Then your statement should be that it is not true in ... California ... but is true wherever the IRC is in effect.

But wait, I said that it may, or may not ... and you said "and would only be allowed as an alternative material aproved by the Building Offical " so, my statement is true EVEN IN California, but with a condition - that being the Building Official would need to approve it.

[Cobra Cook]

I was taught by AHIT, NACHI and many others that when I do a home inspection to remember I am not a "code" inspector. If I was I would be working as a building or safety inspector instead as I have done in the past. When a house is built it is inspected by some one who is trained to know the code and usually do and " invasive" type inspection. Some time afterward during a home inspection we see what is called "handy man" wiring or other work done that may not be correct and in our report we note that. I am certaintly not going to break out a Building, NEC or Mechanica Code book and start opening myself to a law suit. Several states are so far behind with so many new codes that some still go by the 2003 and the 2005 code books. So you better know which to go by when you start code preaching and running off buyers and sellers with you code inspection instead of doing a non invasive home inspection.
As to the air escaping from the drain it is simply due to and improper trap with not enough condensate in it to to block the air flow, this somtimes prevents condensate from exiting through the drain if the unit runs for long periods and will actually cause the unit to overflow into the drain pan, but when the unit cycles off whats left in the unit will then flow out in to the pipe. If cold air continues to blow out it will start to allow mold to start growing. Now are you going to tell the customer he has mold growing or are you going to tell tell him he has a mold like substance that needs to be checked out by someone who is Certified in IAQ.

[A.D. Miller]

I was taught by . . . NACHI

CC: That is nearly an oxymoron.


I am not a "code" inspector.

CC: I admit, I have no idea where or what Henrico is. So then, you may exist on another plane of reality where HIs are not looking for deficiencies that have their origins in the model building codes.

While it may be true that you are not the local AHJ or one of his minions, and you do not have the authority to enforce the minimal building code, as an independent inspector you do have the obligation to point out to your clients that it has not been complied with.;)

[Randy Cooper]

I was taught by AHIT, NACHI and many others that when I do a home inspection to remember I am not a "code" inspector. If I was I would be working as a building or safety inspector instead as I have done in the past. When a house is built it is inspected by some one who is trained to know the code and usually do and " invasive" type inspection. Some time afterward during a home inspection we see what is called "handy man" wiring or other work done that may not be correct and in our report we note that. I am certaintly not going to break out a Building, NEC or Mechanica Code book and start opening myself to a law suit. Several states are so far behind with so many new codes that some still go by the 2003 and the 2005 code books. So you better know which to go by when you start code preaching and running off buyers and sellers with you code inspection instead of doing a non invasive home inspection.
As to the air escaping from the drain it is simply due to and improper trap with not enough condensate in it to to block the air flow, this somtimes prevents condensate from exiting through the drain if the unit runs for long periods and will actually cause the unit to overflow into the drain pan, but when the unit cycles off whats left in the unit will then flow out in to the pipe. If cold air continues to blow out it will start to allow mold to start growing. Now are you going to tell the customer he has mold growing or are you going to tell tell him he has a mold like substance that needs to be checked out by someone who is Certified in IAQ.

The guy was located in California and the unit looked fairly new. Proper codensate disposal has been in all the adopded mecahincal codes going back at lease the last three code cycles. Having deducted that, to install that unit, in new construction or as a replacement, a permit was required and thus the condensate waste is required to be properly disposed of. Had the condensate waste line been indirectly connected to a P-trap as required by code, there would not be a draft. P-traps are not normally located where it gets drafty on the outside of the building.

[Jerry Peck]

CC: I admit, I have no idea where or what Henrico is. So then, you may exist on another plane of reality


I find it an oxymoron, or at least oxymoronic :p that someone who identifies their location as: "Location: Southwest United States" is chiding another person for identifying their location as: "Location: Henrico".

Aaron,

Come join the civilization you are part of and post your location, otherwise, and as much as I agree with you point that out to people, you are in no position to point that out to people. Quite like the pot calling the kettle black.

[A.D. Miller]

I find it an oxymoron, or at least oxymoronic :p that someone who identifies their location as: "Location: Southwest United States" is chiding another person for identifying their location as: "Location: Henrico".


JP: Actually, the correct part of speech to which you are referring is irony. So then, it would be ironic.:rolleyes:


Come join the civilization you are part of

JP: Who ever said I was a part of it?:confused:



you are in no position to point that out to people.


JP: I was not asking him to reveal his location. I frankly do not give a damn where he is from. I simply said that I do not know what or where Henrico is. Maybe you don't either. But, I think everyone who can read the language and a map can identify the Southwestern United States. Right?:D

[A.D. Miller]

JP: But, because it seems to irritate you so, and because we all hate to see you in an irritable mood, I have put a bit of a finer point on my location, just for you.:D

[A.D. Miller]

JP: And just look at that, will you? 12,541 posts. You really ought to be ashamed.:eek:

[Jerry Peck]

I find it an oxymoron, or at least oxymoronic :p that someone who identifies their location as: "Location: Southwest United States" is chiding another person for identifying their location as: "Location: Henrico".


JP: Actually, the correct part of speech to which you are referring is irony. So then, it would be ironic.

Nope, should have been as I stated ... "oxymoronic" ... with emphasis on the last syllable by that " :p ". :D

It would be irony that someone would actually located you in the "Southwest" region you had, an ironic that they had you do the inspection in New Mexico and not in Texas.

However, your new location is better ... however, it still is not *your location*, it is *your service area*. While I frequently admit that I am not an English major and that English is Greek to me, you seem to try to impress others with your use of a larger vocabulary, yet you miss the simple statements put forth by those of us with less vocabulary, contrary to what one would think given your trailer statement: " "What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety he makes up in clarity." - A.D. Miller "

I am plain spoken, but apparently not plain spoken enough. Maybe if I were from Spokane my plain spoken words would be understood by you? :)
(Okay, so that did not rhyme as well as I thought it would. :eek: Never said I was a poet either.)

[Ron Bibler]

New furnace has been install in the attic. the old wall furnace duct with interior vent is now being used to run the Gas pipe from the sub-area to the new furnace in the attic.

This was my point. the original vent to heat the interior are still in the wall duct work. this opens the sub-structure to the interior to the attic.

Best

Ron

[Jerry Peck]

New furnace has been install in the attic. the old wall furnace duct with interior vent is now being used to run the Gas pipe from the sub-area to the new furnace in the attic.

This was my point. the original vent to heat the interior are still in the wall duct work. this opens the sub-structure to the interior to the attic.

Best

Ron


Correct, yes it is a fire hazard. That needs to be fireblocked at the floor and at the ceiling levels.

And that was my answer as the first response to your post.

Except that it does not open the "sub-structure" to the interior to the attic, as you have described it "old wall furnace" was removed and the wall cavity and the vent for the old wall furnace is being used as the chase for the gas line - that would open up the interior framing to the attic and, yes, as stated, that needs to be fireblocked at the ceiling level.

Now, IF the bottom of that wall cavity was also open to the crawl space (i.e., the "sub-structure", then, yes, it would be open from the crawl space all the way to the attic and fireblocking would be required at the floor level AND the ceiling level.

[Ron Bibler]

You are correct Jerry. it was opem from the bottom. and needs fire blocking.

Best

Ron

[A.D. Miller]

JP: OK, as English is giving you a hard time, I have resorted to the most accurate method I know of denoting my locations without using words.

Happy now?:D

[Jerry Peck]

JP: OK, as English is giving you a hard time, I have resorted to the most accurate method I know of denoting my locations without using words.

Happy now?:D

What? You think I'm good at math? Sheesh. :)

T'was better with the listing just before, but, alas, ... and never mind, ... I might as type my location as "at my computer tying ... or not" ... jeez! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[Cobra Cook]

It is a shame idiots think that they are always right and every one else is wrong. This forum should be about giving out advice to people who are looking for answers, I think for the most part they eventually get a good answer but have to read so much bullshit to get to it. I live in Henrico, Virginia 23150. We have good and bad builders and good and bad building, electrical and mechanical inspectors in our state. When you tell a client that their home has code violations, what a stupid ass you must be. If the house is not brand new you have no right expecting a seller to bring up their house to today’s code, with the exception to handy man electrical wiring, plumbing ect. And that usually jumps out at you just like some on this cite do. Not because of a code book error, but because it is most likely unsafe or is or has caused damage to the house. When was the house built? Do you know what the code was at that time? Remember just because it was built if 1994 does not mean the state had gotten to the new code book at that time and may be several years behind.
When I said I was taught by NACHI, they have a large amount of training and CE credits and if you are not a member you are cutting yourself short by not continuously keeping up with what home inspectors are supposed to be doing and that is on going training.

[Ron Bibler]

It is a shame idiots think that they are always right and every one else is wrong. This forum should be about giving out advice to people who are looking for answers, I think for the most part they eventually get a good answer but have to read so much bullshit to get to it. I live in Henrico, Virginia 23150. We have good and bad builders and good and bad building, electrical and mechanical inspectors in our state. When you tell a client that their home has code violations, what a stupid ass you must be. If the house is not brand new you have no right expecting a seller to bring up their house to today’s code, with the exception to handy man electrical wiring, plumbing ect. And that usually jumps out at you just like some on this cite do. Not because of a code book error, but because it is most likely unsafe or is or has caused damage to the house. When was the house built? Do you know what the code was at that time? Remember just because it was built if 1994 does not mean the state had gotten to the new code book at that time and may be several years behind.
When I said I was taught by NACHI, they have a large amount of training and CE credits and if you are not a member you are cutting yourself short by not continuously keeping up with what home inspectors are supposed to be doing and that is on going training.


Now don't get your shorts in a bundle. A few on this board have mix emotion and it can be at times hard for them to hold back:D

We all must sit at our computers States apart. We may feel safe. If we were face to face:eek: in the same room that would be another story... Could be fun:D

Be like a duck let to water flow.

Best

Ron

[A.D. Miller]

It is a shame idiots think that they are always right and every one else is wrong. This forum should be about giving out advice to people who are looking for answers, I think for the most part they eventually get a good answer but have to read so much bullshit to get to it. I live in Henrico, Virginia 23150. We have good and bad builders and good and bad building, electrical and mechanical inspectors in our state. When you tell a client that their home has code violations, what a stupid ass you must be. If the house is not brand new you have no right expecting a seller to bring up their house to today’s code, with the exception to handy man electrical wiring, plumbing ect. And that usually jumps out at you just like some on this cite do. Not because of a code book error, but because it is most likely unsafe or is or has caused damage to the house. When was the house built? Do you know what the code was at that time? Remember just because it was built if 1994 does not mean the state had gotten to the new code book at that time and may be several years behind.
When I said I was taught by NACHI, they have a large amount of training and CE credits and if you are not a member you are cutting yourself short by not continuously keeping up with what home inspectors are supposed to be doing and that is on going training.


CC: With a name like Cobra I would expect no less than for you to immediately resort to ad hominem attacks. I've got your "idiot" dangling. BTW, in my neighborhood you could get your ass whipped for even admitting to having a handle like yours. Maybe I'll change mine to "Sidewinder", who knows?

As for your take on quoting adopted model codes vs. rendering your own specious opinions, I know which one most folks would listen to.:D

[A.D. Miller]

What? You think I'm good at math? Sheesh. :)

T'was better with the listing just before, but, alas, ... and never mind, ... I might as type my location as "at my computer tying ... or not" ... jeez! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

JP: Oi vai, are you hard Meshugener to please, or what?:eek:

[A.D. Miller]

I momentarily tried rebranding to a Shlang avatar, but did not like the view from way down there.:D

[Cobra Cook]

If you ever studied a cobra or saw one in action then you would know that they can stand on their tail and look a man in their eye before they spit on them in the eye and kill instantly, their favorite mode of attack, saves wear and tear on their fangs. If you try to out run them they can jump five times their length but for the most part would just rather be left alone. I was given the name Cobra by my co-workers who depended on me to look out for them and I did not let them down. I am surprised you chose the name sidewinder as they never go in a straight line and never know where they will end up.

[A.D. Miller]

I am surprised you chose the name sidewinder as they never go in a straight line and never know where they will end up.


CC: That pretty well describes how I feel every day.:D