electricial tape wrap around wire nuts [Archive] - InspectionNews

Craig Ervin

08-03-2009, 10:21 PM

Outside ... behind some bushes ... *is not* ... a "wet location"?

Please explain.

I guess that did not come out right. As outdoor outlets are a wet location. They are sealed to keep the water out. There is not code to use sealants for these locations. I guess I meant underground, as that is where you see those wire nuts. I don't like when builders or HO plant bushes up next to the foundation I think its a bad plan. FWIW My house has a 2' concrete or paver's and then the bushes or flowers. This way I can access and inspect the edge of the house for any issue. Plus a latter fits back there too! For a home inspector thats got to be tough digging through ivy and roses bushes looking for termites or other infestation. I should post a couple pic of what I mean, as each region is a bit different.

I've only used them for low voltage sprinklers. But I its not a bad idea to tape those connections on the outside as moisture seems to get in and corrod the connections. I've taken ones out that have tape and wire is clean on the inside, and others with no tape and the wire nut needed to be replaced and the wire trimmed back to good clean copper.

On a side note I see the city traffic light guys dip there connections into ABS glue.

Cobra Cook

08-05-2009, 09:47 AM

It is no problem to tape a wire nut, it tightens and seals the connection of the wires more secure. Never had one fail in thirty years, but the new type nuts are longer and do seem to seal better on their own now.

Speedy Petey

08-05-2009, 12:29 PM

It is no problem to tape a wire nut, 100% agree.

..., it tightens and seals the connection of the wires more secure.100% disagree.
If you need tape to make it "more" secure the connection was not good enough in the first place.
And it seals nothing out. In fact it can keep moisture in once it is in there. The only thing that seals a wire nut is a sealing wire nut.

Never had one fail in <almost> thirty years,Neither have I, and I have never taped a one.

Jerry Peck

08-05-2009, 12:42 PM

Never had one fail in thirty years,

Neither have I, and I have never taped a one.

I've had one fail in forty years plus - last year on my house. :D

I installed two lights over the sink and it started acting up, sometimes working sometimes not, traced it back to a wire nut where I tapped it off my attic lights near the garage wall - the garage door would open and its vibration would make it work and not work. When I looked at the junction it "looked" okay, but as I was putting it back into the box it sparked, which told me it was not tightened properly by the idiot electrician who installed it (me :) ).

I never taped them either, for the same reasons Peter noted, and that it was simply unnecessary.

John Dirks Jr

08-05-2009, 01:06 PM

Think about an arch at the connection point. A spark could shoot out. Tape on the nut would probably contain the spark and not even let it into the box.

I know, it's the box that is designed to contain the spark. However, taping the nut might prevent a fire if an open splice was existing. I'm sure you have found many junction boxes with missing covers right? In my opinion, taped nuts in a box without a cover are safer.

So, even if taping nuts is not required, it won't likely hurt but it may actually help.

Jerry Peck

08-05-2009, 01:53 PM

Think about an arch at the connection point. A spark could shoot out. Tape on the nut would probably contain the spark and not even let it into the box.

The tape would probably NOT contain the spark, besides, that is one of the purposes of the box.

I know, it's the box that is designed to contain the spark. However, taping the nut might prevent a fire if an open splice was existing.

I doubt it.

In my opinion, taped nuts in a box without a cover are safer.

Probably not safer.

So, even if taping nuts is not required, it won't likely hurt but it may actually help.

The taping makes everything take up more room, and trying to fit bigger taped wire nut connections into the box could well actually have the reverse effect - it could loosen the junctions.

Bill Kriegh

08-05-2009, 07:25 PM

Typically the failure mode of a wire nut starts with a connection that isn't tightened enough. This eventually leads to the connection getting hot either because it is a high resistance connection or arcing is present and generates significant heat. At this point all tape does is add to the gooey mess of melted plastic and provide fuel if ignition temperatures are reached. Of course tape can also cause the wire nut to retain moisture that will cause a good splice to fail eventually given the right circumstances.

Then there's the guys that use cheap tape that leaves a gooey mess when you have to remove it.

I feel strongly enough about not taping wire nuts and devices I've sent a couple of guys down the road over the years who insisted on taping everything in spite of instructions to the contrary, but as most here are aware I'm a pretty crotchety old guy anyway.

Cobra Cook

08-07-2009, 09:11 PM

If it will keep the electricity in without falling out which is under pressure, why won't it keep out moisture which is not?

Jerry Peck

08-08-2009, 05:05 AM

If it will keep the electricity in without falling out which is under pressure, why won't it keep out moisture which is not?

You would have to do the smoke test to answer that.

See if the connection burns up but the tape keeps the smoke in. If the tape keeps the smoke in, the smoke did not escape which means things still work.

It's when you let the smoke out that things stop working.

:D

Cobra Cook

08-08-2009, 06:54 AM

I like that one:rolleyes:

John S

08-10-2009, 06:09 AM

If this isn't a dead issue yet, it will be in a minute. But, i'd like to take a poke at it anyway. First of all I am a newbie to this forum, I found it because I've decided to go to school to learn how to become a building inspector. I'm 44 years old and didn't attend college, because at that time is wasn't necessary. To date, I've worked in the Specialty Trade of cutting Concrete for the last 23 years doing everything from using the equipment to fixing it (which is mostly 220vac to 480vac 3 ph & 400 - 1000 high cycle equipt.) Which on a daily basis, gets used and abused, vibrated, bounced and saturated with water, ( which the operator happens to be standing in.) When I worked on something,(knowing that I will be using it sooner or later) made absolutely sure that every connection was at tight and sealed as possible. And for the last 10 years as a company owner/ operator I still work on the equipment. I wire nut and tape sometimes silicone the box shut, do whatever it takes to ensure safety. Does it matter or make any difference? Only the fact that Me or anyone else is not dead from anything I worked on.

So why would I change my practices when I carry it over to my house, where my wife and kids sleep? I'll do whatever it takes to ensure safety. The extra tape that I use is on my dime, not anyone else's.

Jerry Peck

08-10-2009, 07:56 AM

So why would I change my practices when I carry it over to my house, where my wife and kids sleep? I'll do whatever it takes to ensure safety. The extra tape that I use is on my dime, not anyone else's.

Because, number one, you are not working with those same voltages, number two it is simply not needed, number three you may actually cause another problem, and number four if you feel the need to tape a wire nut on a 120 volt circuit it means you do not have confidence in your installation of that wire nut - if you did you would not bother to tape it.

Finally, with the tape, you may actually loosen an otherwise tight wire nut when taping it, or when trying to stuff the now much larger glob into the junction box, but, as you say, it is only your wife and your kids, so who else should care? Other than, of course, your guests and future occupants, but, who cares if you loosen the wire nut accidentally, as long as you think you are doing the right thing, actually doing the right thing does not matter.

Richard Abrams

08-10-2009, 10:43 AM

Tape around wire nuts is a sign of a non professional installation. When I see this I know that a "Weekend Warrior" is at work. There is no reason for it at all.

Cobra Cook

08-10-2009, 03:46 PM

how in the h--- is taping a wire nut in the same direction as you are tightening the nut its self going to loosen up the joint? Just because you do not do it, use tape, as do some other professionals does not make your way correct. I was taught in the US NAVY to tape the nuts also as an extra precaution and no other reason. More people die from 115 volts than any other voltage There is no need to glob on the tape but I guess that’s explains why some would be pissed when they open up a box and find out you globbed it full of tape, all you need to do is wrap a couple rounds of tape pulling it tight in the same direction as you would wrap a pipe fitting with Teflon tape. Do you know which direction that is?

Jim Port

08-10-2009, 03:58 PM

CC,

As has been said several times in this post there is no need for tape to be used on a properly installed twist-on connector.

Do you think the reason that more people die from 120 volts is because that is the voltage that they are most commonly exposed to or have access to? How many people are exposed to 277/480 or above? Kind of like the stat that most accident happen within 25 miles of home. Since you spend most of your time there you would have a greater chance of the accident where you are, not where you are not. Go figure.

Robert Mattison

08-10-2009, 04:29 PM

Corba Cook makes an interesting case, for those people whom think the
the taping of a wire nut, it not a bad idea.

The U.S. NAVY.

Question: Does NEC prohibit this practice. I think they would if it such a
bad thing to do.

Jim Port

08-10-2009, 04:57 PM

The NEC is silent on the taping of twist-on connectors.

Jerry Peck

08-10-2009, 05:05 PM

Question: Does NEC prohibit this practice. I think they would if it such a bad thing to do.

There are many poor practices which are not prohibited by the NEC.

If you are looking for the NEC to be a cook book and tell you exactly what to do and what not to do, you are in for a rude awakening - the NEC ... like all codes ... is simply "minimum" allowed/required/prohibited practices, it does not tell you not to boil the water out of the pan, it only tells you not to burn through the bottom of the pan.

Raymond Wand

08-10-2009, 05:14 PM

Its acceptable trade practice and no one has come up with any documentation against it fwiw.

Cobra,

Counter Clockwise.

Speedy Petey

08-10-2009, 05:26 PM

Its acceptable trade practice and no one has come up with any documentation against it fwiw.Because there is no such documentation. No one has implied there was.

I like this quote:

There are many poor practices which are not prohibited by the NEC.

John S

08-10-2009, 05:27 PM

Jerry, you completely misunderstood the point i was trying to get across. I meant if i spend the extra time and money it takes for a little tape, why should someone else complain. As i said, i would do whatever it takes to make sure my connections stay, even if the cable is accidentle yanked on while live. i also meant, if it doesn't violate any codes. Let it go! if the wire nut was a tight connection, well then, the tape just made it tighter. thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.
As far as "well because it has tape on it, the guy must have his head up his ass" theory. two words come to mind. there are a lot of people out there who know what they are doing, some certified, some not. some were taught by watching others. some not. its not my place to judge you or anybody else as a complete *******, just because i didn't like the way somebody holds their fork & knife for example if there wasn't an ordinance against it in the first place. i think i beat the horse long enough.

Speedy Petey

08-10-2009, 05:31 PM

if the wire nut was a tight connection, well then, the tape just made it tighter. Bottom line is you can certainly do it if you like. But....the above statement is 100% incorrect. Tape does not, and will never, make a wire nut tighter or safer.

I have seen many wire nuts fail due to poor installation. Most just melt into a pool of molten plastic. Tape will just add to that pool.

Jerry Peck

08-10-2009, 05:42 PM

Bottom line is you can certainly do it if you like. But....the above statement is 100% incorrect. Tape does not, and will never, make a wire nut tighter or safer.

I have seen many wire nuts fail due to poor installation. Most just melt into a pool of molten plastic. Tape will just add to that pool.

Peter,

Tape can also hide a "loose" wire nut, which will then rear its ugly head later on.

Jerry Peck

08-10-2009, 05:43 PM

As far as "well because it has tape on it, the guy must have his head up his ass" theory.

John,

I believe you will find that was not my post. :)

Ted Menelly

08-10-2009, 06:36 PM

Ah Yes

To Tape

Or Not To Tape

That Is The Question

:p

Cobra Cook

08-11-2009, 06:00 AM

It depends on which way you are looking at what you are tightening, but the same direction of the threads is correct.

John S

08-11-2009, 03:04 PM

If you go back and read all the posts, this got way off the point into another direction, Nobody said that the tape was going to make the nut "tighter" than it was installed, as previously stated otherwise. and nobody said use so much tape it wouldn't fit into the box, as jerry stated it wouldn't. But i think we should all keep an open mind about things, nobody knows it all, and i hate when your trying to show someone how to work on something, and they think they know it all.

Jerry Peck

08-11-2009, 03:14 PM

Hello, my question is what is your thought when you see electrical tape
wrap wire nuts.

My question is do you think this an okay practice but not necessary?

I talk to E.C. around my area, so do this, some don't.

The other practice is wrapping electrical tape around switch and re-
ceptacles. Again so do, and some don't. Each makes a strong case.

If you go back and read all the posts, this got way off the point into another direction, Nobody said that the tape was going to make the nut "tighter" than it was installed, as previously stated otherwise. and nobody said use so much tape it wouldn't fit into the box, as jerry stated it wouldn't. But i think we should all keep an open mind about things, nobody knows it all, and i hate when your trying to show someone how to work on something, and they think they know it all.

John,

Go back and re-read the original post.

"Again so do, and some don't. Each makes a strong case."

That is PRECISELY what has been done by each side in the posts.

And you are complaining about it?

We are just following through on the original post.

Besides, if you do wrap much tape at all, you will not get it back in the box, and if you do not wrap much tape around it then the tape will not do much good.

Instead of trying to pick posts apart you need to read them and think about what is being discussed and said. Step out of your confined box and open your mind up.

John S

08-12-2009, 05:49 PM

Dearest Jerry, I had to walk away for a while after that very rude comment so i wouldn't tell you exactly what i said aloud. Open up your f***** mind and think about wtf you are saying for a f****** minute. I realize you are a litigator, so anything anyone says that doesn't go with what you believe is an a*******. well these people in this forum are not those people. I hate when people like you try to change their minds for them. again, if its not against code.LET IT GO. for christs sake, save it for the arbotration, these people in here all do what they feel is best, if you cannot provide documentation that this is a wrong practice, then you do not have a leg to stand on. and I invite anybody to the contrary. I am not out to get you, I am standing up for myself which is what i hope everybody in here will do for themselves. thanks.........................

Jerry Peck

08-12-2009, 05:59 PM

John S.,

I see you are being your typical demanding and rude self as if others disagree with you ... you go off the deep end.

Be prepared to go off the deep end here and frequently as you may well find that not everyone agrees with you all the time, and when they point out something, if you go off the deep end all the time you will just look foolish all the time. :rolleyes:

As I said, go back and read the original post, WE HAVE BEEN DOING JUST WHAT WAS POSTED.

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT ... DO NOT READ IT. :rolleyes:

John S

08-12-2009, 06:21 PM

I DID GO BACK AND READ ALL THE POSTS JERRY. YOU AS A LITIGATOR CANNOT AND WILLNOT ALLOW ANYBODY THEIR OWN OPINION. I CAN. I AM OPEN MINDED. IF I CAN'T BACKUP WHAT I SAY, I KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT. YOU ON THE OTHERHAND CANNOT. ITS WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING. STOP TREATING ME AND ANYONE ELSE HERE WHO VALUES THEIR OWN OPINION, LIKE A THIRD CLASS CITIZEN. I WAS TAUGHT YEARS AGO, WHEN YOU SPEAK TO AN AUDIENCE, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU THINK YOU KNOW ON THE SUBJECT, THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS MORE THAN YOU. THINK ABOUT THAT STATEMENT JERRY.

Jerry Peck

08-12-2009, 07:15 PM

John S.,

There you go again, off the deep end again.

We are allowed to have opinions. However, having an opinion does not make one correct.

You have an opinion, the original poster stated "The other practice is wrapping electrical tape around switch and receptacles. Again so do, and some don't. Each makes a strong case."

Thus what followed was each side making their case.

If you cannot handle opposing opinion and people stating their case, then you should not be reading those posts.

John S

08-12-2009, 07:53 PM

Getting back to the original question at hand, and whether or not Jerry or anyone else disagrees, there are no negative side effects to applying electrical tape in a logical manner on a wire nut or receptacle.

It was posted before by Cobra Cook, who testified that the US NAVY, a branch of the US GOVERNMENT, recognizes and employs using electircal tape ensuring further safety.

Since there is no documentation on enforcing this issue, litigation wise there is no further need to pursue any arguement further.

Jerry Peck

08-12-2009, 08:01 PM

Since there is no documentation on enforcing this issue, litigation wise there is no further need to pursue any arguement further.

So ... as long as YOU do not want it to keep going, the rest of us are being told to do the same?

(sigh)

John S

08-12-2009, 08:17 PM

I would not need to argue a point of which i am "allowed" to have an opinion. the whole intention of this forum is to ask questions, give answers, and relate opinions. i will not answer any question without factual doc. to back myself up. i certainly hope you dont have a problem with my opinion.

Jerry Peck

08-13-2009, 09:06 AM

i certainly hope you dont have a problem with my opinion.

Nope.

Only when you bitch and moan about the posts of others and you thinking those others are trying to "control" others, and then you take it upon yourself to try to "control" what you do not like about the board and some posts and threads by telling us it is all done.

If you do not like some posts or threads, the answer is real simple ... do not read them.

Your problem above was like the pot calling the kettle black.

John S

08-13-2009, 01:10 PM

JERRY, ONCE AGAIN I HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF TO YOU BECAUSE FOR SOME REASON YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. I LIKE THIS FORUM, AND MANY OTHERS WHICH I TAKE PART IN. WHEN I READ THE FIRST QUESTION, I WANTED TO KNOW MORE, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY USED THE TAPE. OK. I WANTED TO LEARN MORE. ARE YOU HAPPY. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU COULD USE SOME LESSONS YOURSELF. STOP TRYING TO DICTATE ANY OPINION I MAY HAVE. I WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO STAND UP TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE WHO THINKS THEY CAN BULLY ME IN THIS FORUM. MY OPINION IS MINE JERRY, NOT YOURS TO DECIDE WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT DO. SORRY, YOU DO NOT HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON. YOU CANNOT PROVIDE PROOF IN THE FORM OF DOCUMENTATION THAT ANY VIOLATION EXISTS, IN ALL LOGICALNESS, YOU WOULD LOOSE IF YOU WERE STANDING IN A COURTROOM. END OF STORY.

Jerry Peck

08-13-2009, 01:28 PM

John S.,

And again you do not disappoint.

You now cannot get YOUR way so you go off the deep end again.

(sigh ... will the man never learn?)

No one, other than you, is telling others what to do, and when you are told that others will not do what you want, and that others can do what they like, and if you do not like what others do that you do not need to read their posts ... you go off the deep end ranting about what you were complaining about others doing.

You really do need to learn to take a deep breath ... hold it ... hold it ... hold ... it ... now slowly release ... feel better now?

I can see that you really do not like for someone to point out that you are acting like a child, telling others not to do something, then getting mad when told that others are not listening to you and the others will do as they want.

You can count on one thing here for sure - that when YOU try to tell us what to do, and then YOU do not like it when we do otherwise, the *I* will be here to point that out to YOU.

If you INSIST ON GOING OFF THE DEEP END every time you do that and I point it out, you might as well stay down there off the deep end and make it as comfortable as you can, because you will surely be spending a lot of time off the deep end. :D

That will be your choice, should you chose to make that choice.

John S

08-13-2009, 01:52 PM

I WASN'T THE ONE GOING OFF THE "DEEP END" I WASN'T "BITCHING AND MOANING" ABOUT "THE POSTS OF OTHERS". THESE ARE ALL YOUR QUOTES. I AM A LOGICAL PERSON. EVERYTHING WORKS FOR A REASON. I NEVER TRIED TO "CONTROL" ANYBODY. AS I SAID. IF I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH A SUBJECT, I KNOW WHEN TO BE QUIET, YOU SEEM TO BE QUITE THE OPOSITE. AND IF YOU HAVE EVER SEEN A POLITICIAN IN ACTION, THEY WILL NEVER EVER ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, BUT SHIFT ALL THE BLAME TO WHOEVER THEY ARE SPEAKING TO. I'M FROM CHICAGO JERRY. WANT TO PLAY?? IF ANYBODY EVER REPRSENTED ME THE WAY YOU CONDUCT YOURSELF, I WOULD HAVE TO FIRE THEM. MAYBE A SWIFT KICK IN THE ASS, THEN FIRE THEM.
JUST TO RECAP:

I LIKE THIS FORUM

I LISTEN TO OTHERS

SOMETIMES HAVE TO BE QUIET (OTHERS MAY KNOW MORE)

MUST BE CURTIOUS

I DO NOT TELL OTHERS WHAT TO DO

I DO NOT ACT LIKE A CHILD

WHAT ELSE JERRY, I KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO PICK SOMETHING THAT YOU DO AND PIN IT ON ME, SO WHAT'S NEXT. I CAN KEEP GOING. WHEN IT COMES TO BULLIES LIKE YOU I HAVE ALL DAY.

Jerry Peck

08-13-2009, 01:56 PM

John S.,

There you go again ... of the deep end.

I will keep leading to that deep end as long as you wish to keep going off it. :rolleyes:

(sigh, I guess he will never learn)

I must say, though, that for the benefit of the other members of this forum it would be in everyone's best interest if you stopped going off the deep end. :D :rolleyes:

(Here will come another post yelling, ranting, and raving about not going off the deep end, and he has to yell as he is so far off that deep end that no one can hear him otherwise.) (sigh)

Raymond Wand

08-13-2009, 02:00 PM

I have a confession to make. I tape the wire nuts, and I also tape around the duplex receptacles and anything else that I think needs taping. I have had this condition since childhood. I kept my habit hidden for years, till I got out and met other electricians and home owners just like me! I felt reborn, I no longer need to take my tape to bed and tape myself to sleep! :p

Thanks everyone I really appreciate knowing their are others in the electrical closet - be brave - use tape! :D :p

Robert Mattison

08-13-2009, 02:10 PM

Raymond Wand, thanks for coming out of the closet on this issue.:)
Feel no shame, you are only human.

For all the other H.I. 3M LIST THEIR 33+ electrical tape as fire retardant,
now the question, is the mastic on the back side fire retardant?:cool:

Jerry Peck

08-13-2009, 02:19 PM

For all the other H.I. 3M LIST THEIR 33+ electrical tape as fire retardant,
now the question, is the mastic on the back side fire retardant?:cool:

Robert,

Fire retardant does not mean it does not melt into a bigger gooey mess. :D

Robert Mattison

08-13-2009, 04:19 PM

Jerry thanks for your comment, as I say food for thought.

No one wants a big gooey mess than me.:D

I am not quoting you....here.

The reason electrician use switch boxes and outlet boxes is to contain the
possible of a fire inside one.;)

A fire need oxygen to burn. now I really going out on a limb here, but
is the gooey mess doesn't burn, couldn't it aid in pulling out fire stated
inside a electrical box.:cool:

I guess is what I am trying to say, why do make something that does.

Oh by the why, you know what really grind my gears, is spray foam inside
electric boxes. :eek:

Jerry Peck

08-13-2009, 04:26 PM

A fire need oxygen to burn. now I really going out on a limb here, but is the gooey mess doesn't burn, couldn't it aid in pulling out fire stated inside a electrical box.

I doubt it would aid in that, it might help spread the fire though, by melting and dripping on other things.

Not sure if the smoldering fumes are healthy or not. :D

Yep, no spray foam is allowed in the boxes.

John S

08-15-2009, 10:44 AM

i will only use small case letters so i dont offend. raymond, i laughed at u coming out of the closet. i thought that was clever. i used tape i since the age of 11 or 12 i think playing around as a kid with 110v. just something i picked up on my own.

John S

08-15-2009, 10:58 AM

Robert, do you have any info on friction tape (i think its called) the marine electricians taught me to use this on high voltage equipment, they used it on winches ans such on tug boats in the marine indutry. just curious.

Joe Laurieri

08-15-2009, 11:48 AM

The reason electrician use switch boxes and outlet boxes is to contain the
possible of a fire inside one.;)

Given that reasoning although not recommended to tape - if the material is listed UL94 or equivalent. The elecrtrical box or panel - Assuming all done to code. Are listed to contain and prevent the propagation of fire.

It should therefore not be a big liability. Although if not required why do it.?

Robert Mattison

08-15-2009, 03:03 PM

John S.

Thinking about getting into high voltage splicing?:D

Friction Tape in mention in: "American Electrician Handbook"
by: Tom Croft, Wilford I Summers & Frederic Hartwell.

I believe any electrician looking to improve there skills, should have a copy.:cool:

John S

08-17-2009, 07:46 AM

Robert, I own a concrete cutting Co. and alot of equipt. we have is high voltage. i've been working on this type of equipt. for about 23 years. i was just wondering if you had any knowledge on the friction tape. these connections, i was told by the marine electricians, (the guys wiring up winches and cranes, both ac & dc powered) to literally tape up connections up to where they barely fit into the box. my equipment runs very hot because its pushed to the limit by the operators trying to get the jobs finished, but nothing has ever melted inside. the friction tape will turn hard as a rock though. i have had to remove the friction tape a couple times over 23 years, and it wasn't pretty. but this might only have to happen once in a saws lifetime. i dont tape up connections in the shop or my house the same way, only about 2 to 2 1/2" of electrical tape around the nut, same direction as the threads. we also have to tape up connections for our trailer lights, the plugs in particular, trying to keep dirt and corrosion to keep the terminals clean is a challenge sometimes. so we tape the crap out of those items.

John S

08-17-2009, 07:55 AM

oh, and i forgot to mention, you have to be both electrician and mechanic in order to work on some of our equipt, because it might be a diesel driven military generator that puts out 110 & 220 or 480 3 phase. also have gas and diesel driven hydraulic power packs as well. then we have the electric driven motors we tie into house power on the job and it drives hydraulic tools. some guys can work on one side or the other, to work on both is a challenge. anyway, i had fun sharing.

Robert Mattison

08-17-2009, 09:32 AM

John S.

Subject: Friction Tape

Friction tape is type of adhevise tape made from clothes impregnated with
rubber base adhasive. Because thee adhesive is impregnated in the cloth,
friction tape is sticke on both sides. The rubber base adhesive makes it an electrical insulator and provides a degree or protection from liquids and
corrosion.

I usually found inside old electrical boxes. Also wrap around the blade of
hockey stick to improve puck control. And wrap around the handles of
softball or baseball bat to give one a better grip.:)

But PVC electrical tape has replace it in most applications today.

Some electrician's buy rubber tape, and then cover that with friction tape.

I have found that the friction tape when subject to a high temperatures,
tends to turn rock hard inside old electrial boxes I have inspected.

I would google 3M a world leader in the MFG. of tape. There you should
find the right products, for the any job. You call also contact the company and talk to their product specialist.

Sorry, But I cannot provide you with the answer wanted, for legal reasons.

Tim Podbreger

08-31-2009, 01:16 PM

My issue with the taped wire nuts is. DIYs Think more tape is a good thing. Then the question?? Is there a properly installed wire nut under all that unnessary tape. They do have colors to let you know the wire size they were made to use on.

A.D. Miller

08-31-2009, 01:19 PM

Jerry Peck

08-31-2009, 01:35 PM

They do have colors to let you know the wire size they were made to use on.

Yes and no ... they have different colors which indicate different sizes, but I would not start basing wire sizes or combinations on color of the wire nut as each wire nut color has s-o-o-o many wire combinations as to make that impractical.

A.D. Miller

08-31-2009, 01:37 PM

Yes and no ... they have different colors which indicate different sizes, but I would not start basing wire sizes or combinations on color of the wire nut as each wire nut color has s-o-o-o many wire combinations as to make that impractical.

JP: So then, is there any truth to the notion that electricians communicate with aliens through combinations of wire nut and tape colors at certain connections?:confused:

Robert Mattison

08-31-2009, 02:20 PM

So taping wiring nuts is a bad idea and unnescessary..

So here my story as to why many D.I.Y.'s might do this unnescessay
practice.

The D.I.Y. goes down to his local, HOME DEPOT, and bring home a new
light fixture for his wife. (note: I heard that it's also call a luminaire.)

After unpacking, the good D.I.Y. reads the instructions.

After all the wire nuts connections are made by our D.I.Y., he then reads
the instructions again. Now it's telling him to individual wrap electrical tape
around each wire nut, he just used, in installing this light fixture. Which he does.

So now the D.I.Y. not knowing any better, now believe that any at home
project he does, involving the use of wire nuts, must be tape over with
electrical tape.

The electrician I talk to, said in school, nothing was ever mention, that
you should tape up wire nut splices. So he always asked his boss what he
wants. Better not to tape, then find out your boss if dead set agaisnt
this practice.

He believes, that a young electrician might had seen an older electrician do
this, and that why some tape, but not all electricians tape up wire nut connections. :cool:

Robert Mattison

08-31-2009, 02:52 PM

AD

I believe when man said something and it make you laugh, you should
tell him so. L.O.L, L.O.L., L.O.L

THANKS! :cool:

"LAUGHER IS THE BEST MEDICINE"

ken horak

08-31-2009, 05:33 PM

I've never seen instructions that call for taping the wire nuts. I would like to see them if they exist.
Yes I have seen instruction sheets from fixtures that are custom made to the crappiest big box store fixtures.

Bill Kriegh

08-31-2009, 06:21 PM

I have lots of issues with taping wire nuts and devices and those that practice the atrocities. To keep this "G" rated I'll dwell only on a few

First and foremost I think it violates the manufacturer's listing because all the wire nuts and devices were tested without tape present and tape isn't specified in the installation instructions. Last time I checked not following manufacturer's instructions was a violation.

Wire nuts are provided with instructions, including a wire strip length, that if followed will put the bare wires inside the skirt of the wire nut and prevent them touching anything. The wires are either pre-twisted or the wire nut twists them when properly installed. The twisted conductors and wire nut provide the mechanical pressure required by the NEC. Tape is neither listed or approved for this purpose. As has been pointed out, if tape is required to allow the splice to function or prevent it's failure, the splice hasn't been done correctly. In other words, if tape is required at a wire nutted splice the workmanship is definitely in question. On top of all this tape can trap moisture in a wire nut. I'm listening if someone can explain to me how this is a good thing.

Devices are furnished with strip guides that indicate how much insulation is to be stripped from the wire. Done correctly, this allows the wire to be wrapped around the screw terminal or inserted into the back-clamp without bare conductor extending beyond the back plane of the device. Screws hold devices in place in metal enclosures and prevent the terminals from touching the enclosure. And. most devices have screw heads recessed when tight that would prevent touching anyway. So, now we get down to why you would need tape in these circumstances. And, it is usually because somebody figures they are going to be back working the thing hot at some point - both stupid and illegal. Of course somebody always figures that keeping those 5 sided left hand upside down widgets coming off the line are more important than somebody's life, but I digress.

Electric forums are always showing results of somebody that had a bad day when working stuff hot. If you need do troubleshoot devices you kill the power, take them out of the box, and then restore power IF the testing requires it, You DO NOT rely on tape to cover your bu** while removing a live device.

Robert Mattison

08-31-2009, 08:04 PM

NOTE: not trying to start an argument

for: Ken Horak

It not just cheap light fixture, instruction literature.

I found this:

Section B High Voltage Wiring
Pigtail the black to and white to white wires with wire nuts
provide. Using a U.L. approved electrical tape, secure the
wire nuts to the wire.

This I copy down, I try getting a direct link for you, but could not.

Here what I did. I went to google, and type in the following: is it a U.L.
listing violation to tape wire nuts.

Yes I had to look around, but did find something un-related to cheap
light fixtures purchase from big box stores.

I think this can from a P.V. installation.

How do get people to stop taping wire nuts when MFG. are telling then
they should do it.

Only the well inform that see this form, and get to read your post will know better.

Next I shall check with the MFG.'s of wire nuts to get there say in this
matter.

To set the record straight Ken, I am on your side. :cool:

A.D. Miller

09-01-2009, 03:42 AM

My uncle was a retired electrical engineer and master electrician. His story went like this: back in the day when wire nuts did not exist connections were made by twisting the conductors together - maybe even soldering them - and then taping the connection. With the advent of wire nuts some (oblivious) old-timers may have continued taping the connections even with the new-fangled nuts attached. Thus began the urban electrical myth that taping wire nuts is required, or even a good idea.

This could be apocryphal, or it could just be completely fabricated on my part, but it seems likely.:D

Robert Mattison

09-01-2009, 04:40 AM

A.D.

I personal want to thank you for that last post, on taping wire nuts.

I love hearing any, story, as to why someone would tape a wire nut. :cool:

H.G. Watson, Sr.

01-03-2010, 07:45 AM

Reviving this older topic string to share experience and perspective to the days before siliconized wire nuts, and methods of wiring besides NMC and non-conductive boxes or unsealed junctions in damp, unconditioned "transition" spaces.

The taping and sealing of both wire nuts and wrapping a switch or receptacle contacts and yoke goes way back.

Back in the day when metalic cable or conduit as ground. Back in the day when connections were required to be soldered. Back in the day when a non-conductive box and non-conductive parts of devices were subject to breaking/failing like bakalite, and other older materials in use at different times, before thermoplastics, teflon, etc.

Boxes in unconditoned spaces - outside walls - areas techically damp locations.

Think back to the days before installs ever involved "back stabbed" devices.

Think two-wire w/ground provided by bonded conduit or no consistant ground. Think conductive boxes. Think self-grounding switches or receptacles (not using isolation washers to mount), or using isolation washers and using ground from device to grounding screw mounted to back of box, and/or use of bare ground in supplied cable with conductive boxes. Whether or not a device such as a receptacle was wired feed through or pigtailed traditional practice was to have some "lead" to allow working room - i.e. the device can be dismounted and pulled out from the box to make connections properly, then the conductors are carefully accordian folded as the device is re-mounted to the box.

The reason the old timers instructed to keep the grounds on the same side of the box as the neutrals, and taped the device was to avoid incidental contact (wire shifting, etc.) between either the hot to ground and avoiding an objectional neutral to ground, either while working hot and initially installing the device, or even if working "dead" after installing the device.

Conduit pulls, work elsewhere on the circuit, and the effects of temperature, age, oxidation on the conductor insulation (stiffening), keeping things safe for the next guy, whoever and whenever that might be down the road. If the box was in an unconditioned space, damp or wet area you'd find an oldtimer taping device and nuts. If the box contained bare grounds, you'd find an oldtimer taping. If the box was conductive you'd find the old timer taping. If the box had a conductive cover plate (which likewise should have been bonded) you'd find the old timer taping.

Further was to keep the area dry, this included the cap side of the wire nut which the position of same could not be maintained, known, or assured within the box after the device was mounted.

Back to the taping of wire nuts issue - another reason you'll see the figure 8 taping method on the open side of the cap continuing the direction of taping that started at the closed end of the cap. Always as you faced it using the same rules of righty tighty, lefty loosey.

It wasn't just for direct but for an arcing deterrant. That's the why behind it. It is permitted, there is nothing wrong with doing it. There are times when it should be done still. It will not make up for other deficiencies in the wiring methods or materials employed, it serves its own purpose. Also keep in mind that conductors for circuits other than those for the "outlet" may be pulled through the box. All electrical wiring is not done using the same wiring method/materials (ex. cabling), also remember box fill, devices, and box sizes used in the past did not always afford the "space" that is currently required/specified - and if you max out every pigtail allowed for a box and use the fill calculations specified in the code to an extreme it is possible to physically overstuff a box and still meet the code table calculations formulae.

John Kogel

01-03-2010, 02:53 PM

you'd find the old timer taping.

Thanks, HG. The key point to all that might be "old-timer".:)

From a recent inspection:
1, A pic of some old friction tape in a 200 amp fuse panel, still good.
2. Plastic tape peeling off a wire nut. How is it helping?
3. Mystery connections, the part I hate most about tape. What's under there?

Joe Laurieri

01-03-2010, 08:32 PM

Excellent never ending debate !

I have seen electricians use colored tape in 3 Phase installations to properly mark the different wires Blue orange Brown etc....

As for taping wire nuts - not required.

Friction tape is used but for other reasons - In the Aircraft business it is used extensively to repair damaged wire sheathing. However these wires are never run thru into a junction box.

As a result only UL 94 approved materials.

As for the tape itself when consulting the #M product documentation sheets electrical tape is used for wire coding, waterproofing of splices and/or repairing of wire insulation.

See link below

file:///C:/Users/User/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.pnghttp://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MElectrical/Home/ProductsServices/Products/SolutionsCatalog

Any other uses are irrelevant unless particular code requirements need to be met.

Joe Laurieri

01-03-2010, 08:33 PM

BTW some guys here use it for the Hockey Sticks too......... EH!

Roger Frazee

01-04-2010, 09:19 AM

For the benefit of quality control this thread may be taped.......:)

I've been debating whether or not to jump in here and offer some advice (and that's all it is) about electrical tape and wirenuts.

I didn't knuckle down and read every last detail of this thread...but it appears that the debate ( and I use the term debate as a constructive discussion) is over using electrical tape on wire nuts. The 'debate escalated" over tape being used in the wiring of equipment used in a 'rough and wet" (my terms) environment.

Assuming the use of the tape over a wirenut in an approved wiring enclosure I think the first thing you have to address is..... am I using the correct tape ? By this I mean what is your purpose or result you are wanting to achieve and are you using the correct product to achieve those results.

I could debate with you for example if I was wanting to achieve a reasonable water proof connection using tape over a wirenut and I chose vinyl adhesive backed electrical tape to achieve that end result. I would disagree with you because I do not think that is the correct product nor the correct electrical tape for that application.

I would not disagree on the use of tape in a situation on equipment wiring in enclosures exposed to wet and rough conditions ... just on "what" tape you use.

Tape in my opinion does not improve the tightness of a connection with any reliabilty for the long term .. but the wirenut should.

I also believe the use of the wrong tape will be worse than no tape at all. For instance a tape that turns to a gooey mess if exposed to heat over a long period. Adhesive backed tapes will fall into this catagory in some cases.

So my opinion is rather than say tape is not necessary on a wire nut I would say "why do you want to use tape" and if your answer is ... the enclosure where the wirenut is located is exposed to wetness and dust, severe cold etc then I would follow with .. what tape are you planning on using ?

My point being vinyl adhesive backed electrical tape is not recommended as a tape used to seal out moisture. In fact it won't achieve that at all. You would get a better result using a moisture sealing tape like 3M 2200 or rubber liner backed or linerless tape like 3M 2242 or similar rated rubber tape. It would seem prudent to me that if I wanted to tape a wirenut splice like I would a split bolt splice exposed to moisture then I would not differeniate that splice from any other splice.I would use the appropriate tape required to achieve the result needed.

And then there is using tape over a wirenut where it simply will not benefit you ... like in a typical indoors switch box or receptacle box metal or otherwise. Wrapping a receptacle and its exposed screws in a tight fitting metal electrical box like a handybox I have absolutely no argument and it is not uncommonm to see all receptacles in a commercial job regardless of box size where pipe is used wrapped by vinyl electrical tape...in my part of the woods anyway.

So I would say this ... if I was making repairs on equipment cranes, hoists or equipment where the wiring enclosures are exposed to water spray, dust, dirt, mud etc... and my wiring splice method was ' wirenuts' then yes I would tape them but I would educate myself to the long lost art of proper splicing using the correct electrical tape . So that I would be using the right product to achieve the desired result or at minimum a reasonable result to improve the longevity of the splice due to its environment..

Btw you likely will not find anything that documents or lists any tape specifically designed for use with wirenuts since they are the listed insulating splice device. Tape is in most cases IMO used primarily for insulating purposes then after that there are secondary benefits designed into the tape by the manufacturer.

I also think there maybe better ways to achieve moisture protection and "harsh" environment protection for wire splices than wirenuts and tape.

Some helpful links I drummed up with our friend google.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtMxMy58&aEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtNXT_NxMEEVuQEcuZgVs 6EVs6E666666--

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtmX&tNXz6EVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--

bob smit

01-08-2010, 07:55 AM

WOW! I had not a clue that so much could be written on a subject as to tape or not to tape.......LoL
U guys are worse than an AHJ.
As an AHJ, I could give a bugs butt whether or not...taped.
Makes no difference either way except possibly in two instances;
High voltage connections in a 'box mounted on a motor' OK
Connections that may possibly get wet, not OK
I know I'm repeating what's already said, but, I'm still in hysterics over,
"wire nuts tested without tape, therefore taping would be a violation"
Common sense is needed, never as much as when using the hammer of 90-4, ie 'manufactures spec' & how a product was tested for listing.
Now I'm just as bad....keeping this thread going
Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector

darryl washington

01-08-2010, 08:00 AM

I was always told not to trust a guy with suspenders and a belt on at the same time!

Cobra Cook

01-10-2010, 09:22 AM

:) I feel much safer now

Markus Keller

01-10-2010, 10:59 AM

Please STOP, kill this stupid thread already.

Ted Menelly

01-10-2010, 12:18 PM

50 views away from 2000 views on this thread and 83 replies and it is about wrapping wire nuts with electric tape.

Life is a blast

John Kogel

01-10-2010, 08:52 PM

50 views away from 2000 views on this thread and 83 replies and it is about wrapping wire nuts with electric tape.

Life is a blastYeah, it's a good old thread. :) Someone was asking about friction tape. We see friction tape on knob and tube wiring that must be close to 100 years old sometimes.

Here's a pic showing a burn mark on the joist from the electrician's torch. Now was that done with a blowtorch burning naptha? Or was it a patchup job with a propane torch?

Pic 2 is some of the oldest plastic black tape you'll ever see. This is on a 1949 Marconi AM/FM radio. Just a tiny piece of special tape. :)

H.G. Watson, Sr.

01-10-2010, 09:06 PM

D. MacArthur said 'old soldiers never die they just fade away' same goes for good old topic threads.:D

I said remember before thermoplastics and vinyl there is more than one type of tape. The good stuff (right materials, right applications) like the pink bunny keeps working, keeps working....

Nice pics JK thanks for sharing.

Robert Mattison

01-11-2010, 08:07 AM

John Kogel

Great photo's

John Kogel

01-12-2010, 08:57 PM

You are most welcome, HG and Robert. Post #87. :)
Checking the Marconi with a variac, I realized, oh my goodness, I've got white electrical tape wrapped around the receptacle! I've marked the old rubber power cord for polarity with a little piece of white tape. I've taped temporary cord connections in the chassis with some narrow black tape.
That is 640 volts AC across the two secondary legs of the power transformer - it's good. :D

William A. Grant

12-22-2012, 07:31 PM

One more comment... Being a Master electrician and in the trade for 50 years, I guess I would qualify as an old timer. The reason we used friction tape years ago usually was over plastic tape, to give more protection from vibration. In motor connections it paid off. Also, on shaky dust collectors. I still think that was a good idea. We don't do it anymore. I once had an inspector make me go back and tape all my wire nuts. I don't feel it is necessary if the nut is applied right. We should pull on the wires, to make sure they are all engaged. In industry, I have found a wire loose, quite often, and these were all done by qualified, licenced electrician's. It also is a good idea to tape wire nuts where metal dust or shot can get into them. Even with a tight fitting cover, the metal can find its way in. Like foundries. No matter how good we think we are, we can make mistakes. If we check our work, we will find them...... Not somebody else.