Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

[phil kaznowski]

Does anyone know if asphalt roofs require the starter course to also be installed up the rake portion of the eave? I live in an area that receives heavy snow, some contractors do it, some don't. I hhave looked high and low including the CBC and this is not addressed.

Thanks,

Phil K.
Clio, CA

[John Arnold]

I have only heard that some roofers do this to direct water inward so there's not so much dripping off the rake.

[Michael Garrity]

check out manufacturers websites if your not sure about anything. Try GAF.COM for roofing info.

[A.D. Miller]

Does anyone know if asphalt roofs require the starter course to also be installed up the rake portion of the eave? I live in an area that receives heavy snow, some contractors do it, some don't. I hhave looked high and low including the CBC and this is not addressed.

Thanks,

Phil K.
Clio, CA

PK: To my knowledge there are no manufacturers who recommend a starter row under the rake shingles. There is also no mention of this type of installation in the NRCA's manual.

[Jerry Peck]

Phil,

Like Aaron I am not aware of any manufacturer which prescribes doing that, and, doing that would (as stated above) direct the water back across the shingle in an attempt so it does not flow off the rake of the roof, but ... YOU DO NOT WANT to do that as that is simply causing water to flow laterally across shingles designed and intended to have water flowing vertically down over them.

Doing that would simply be asking for roof leaks.

[Michael Garrity]

A starter coarse at the rake is an option recommended by shingle manufacturers,some roofers do it some do not.Nothing to do with water direction.It is a neater job,[look up],locks the shingles down and provides a straight edge for the roofer.It is not expensive and adds very little cost to a new roof.

[A.D. Miller]

A starter coarse at the rake is an option recommended by shingle manufacturers,some roofers do it some do not.Nothing to do with water direction.It is a neater job,[look up],locks the shingles down and provides a straight edge for the roofer.It is not expensive and adds very little cost to a new roof.

MG: That's news to me. Please document this opinion from any major manufacturer for my edification.:rolleyes:

[A.D. Miller]

MG: Good luck with that. I just revisited ARMA, NRCA, GAF, Certainteed, and Owens-Corning materials - nada, nothing at all about starter strips under the shingles at the rake. Maybe you dreamed this . . .:confused:

[Michael Garrity]

A.D.
Check out the GAF website



http://www.gaf.com

[Michael Garrity]

GAF Materials Corp - Residential and Commercial Roofing (http://www.gaf.com/General/GafMain.asp?WS=GAF&Silo=CONT&App=ROOF&Uid=&Force=../../../../Content/GAF/CONT/PROD/gaf-logos-photos-graphics.asp)

[Michael Garrity]

go to individual products details and then starter strips

[Michael Garrity]

http://roofing.owenscorning.com/images/shingles/beauty/large/starter_roll_beauty.jpg

[Brandon Whitmore]

YOU DO NOT WANT to do that as that is simply causing water to flow laterally across shingles designed and intended to have water flowing vertically down over them.


Just my opinion, but I call bull on this one. I've never seen this installation cause a problem, and many of the good roofers around here use this detail. Water is not going to run laterally-- it will barely drain diagonally as there is not much of a cant due to the slight build up at the rakes.
Heck, I use this detail on any roof I install as well. It not only helps protect the rake edges, it also helps make a neat line at rake edges.

[Michael Garrity]

from Owens Corning

Starter Shingle Roll eliminates the need for cutting shingle tabs or inverting them to create a starter row, saving installation time. Application is a snap too. Simply apply a single course of Starter Shingle Roll along a clean, dry and smooth eave line or rake edge, after removing the release sheet. Apply the Starter Shingle Roll directly onto the WeatherLock® underlayment or a layer of felt. Once it is pressed into place, you're ready to begin shingling. (See installation instructions for details.)

[Jerry Peck]

Michael,

Please link to the specific installation instructions you are referring to.

There is A LOT of information on that site and the three I just went to DID NOT SHOW placing starter strips up the rakes.

[Michael Garrity]

thanks Brandon

[A.D. Miller]

MG: I am not referring to the various manufacturers' attempts to sell more of their pre-made starter strip materials. That's just good marketing. Show me where they recommend this in their shingle literature. Better yet, illustrate where ARMA, NRCA or ASTM recommend this.

I am not saying you are wrong on this. It is just the first I've ever heard of it. No roofers in this area use starter strips at the rakes. I have put on a few roofs myself in the past and never even considered doing this. There is simply no purpose in it that I can see.

[Michael Garrity]

Document Title Fax/Email/Download Pro-Start™ Starter Strip, GAF-Elk Asphalt Shingles - Florida Approval FL10124-R1 (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/FBC0044.pdf) Pro-Start™ Starter Strips - Application Instructions (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20217.pdf) Pro-Start™ Starter Strips - Info & Spec Sheet (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20215.pdf) Starter Strip Shingles - MSDS #1003A (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20623.pdf)

From GAF.COM

[Jerry Peck]

Just my opinion, but I call bull on this one. I've never seen this installation cause a problem, and many of the good roofers around here use this detail. Water is not going to run laterally-- it will barely drain diagonally as there is not much of a cant due to the slight build up at the rakes.
Heck, I use this detail on any roof I install as well. It not only helps protect the rake edges, it also helps make a neat line at rake edges.


As Aaron and I are asking of Michael, provide written documentation from the manufacturer of this being allowed.

We all, as home inspectors, KNOW that contractors DO THINGS BECAUSE THEY THINK it is a correct method, but when challenged they cannot show it was - that is what keeps us in business, so ... in that same vein of thought ... think of us as being from Missouri and "show me".

[A.D. Miller]

Document Title Fax/Email/Download Pro-Start™ Starter Strip, GAF-Elk Asphalt Shingles - Florida Approval FL10124-R1 (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/FBC0044.pdf) Pro-Start™ Starter Strips - Application Instructions (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20217.pdf) Pro-Start™ Starter Strips - Info & Spec Sheet (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20215.pdf) Starter Strip Shingles - MSDS #1003A (http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20623.pdf)

From GAF.COM

MG: Again, and not to put too fine a point on it, I am looking for the recommendations not in the pre-made starter strip material literature, but rather in the shingle installation instructions.

[Michael Garrity]

A PRO roofer will always use a starter strip.It is just a better job.Adds pocket change to the cost of a new roof.

[A.D. Miller]

A PRO roofer will always use a starter strip.It is just a better job.Adds pocket change to the cost of a new roof.

MG: Please do not use an impromptu appeal to so-called professional preference or popularity. That is not what I requested. I am not impressed with hearsay, but rather with specific information from recognized authorities in black and white.:D

[Michael Garrity]

MG: Again, and not to put too fine a point on it, I am looking for the recommendations not in the pre-made starter strip material literature, but rather in the shingle installation instructions.

do you want to know how to install shingles?I thought we were talking about starter strip.

and J.P you should know that a good contractor should follow manufacturers instructions because in construction there is a system for everything.
Talk to you local roofing supply company.

[A.D. Miller]

do you want to know how to install shingles?I thought we were talking about starter strip.


MG: You are getting awfully wiggly now and seemingly refusing to offer up any proof of your claim. Is that because you have none, or are you purposely stringing us along for a surprise grand unveiling?:eek:

[Brandon Whitmore]

Hi Jerry,

I was just commenting on part of your reply, as it did not make sense to me.
YOU DO NOT WANT to do that as that is simply causing water to flow laterally across shingles designed and intended to have water flowing vertically down over them.


As Aaron and I are asking of Michael, provide written documentation from the manufacturer of this being allowed.

We all, as home inspectors, KNOW that contractors DO THINGS BECAUSE THEY THINK it is a correct method, but when challenged they cannot show it was - that is what keeps us in business, so ... in that same vein of thought ... think of us as being from Missouri and "show me".

I would bet that if you contacted any manufacturers tech. rep., they would tell you that this installation is just fine.

Contractors who install the rake starter are going above and beyond min. standards on this one in my opinion. They would save money and time by not doing it this way. As home inspectors, we are used to seeing contractors cut corners, not go above and beyond.

[Jerry Peck]

and J.P you should know that a good contractor should follow manufacturers instructions because in construction there is a system for everything.


Michael,

I do know that, which is why I am asking for you to provide the installation instruction which you say exist - for the very reason you stated.

[Jerry Peck]

Contractors who install the rake starter are going above and beyond min. standards on this one in my opinion. They would save money and time by not doing it this way. As home inspectors, we are used to seeing contractors cut corners, not go above and beyond.

Brandon,

Again, I am asking for the installation instructions which show that, you know, the ones you should be following.

[A.D. Miller]

Brandon,

Again, I am asking for the installation instructions which show that, you know, the ones you should be following.

JP: I think you should resort to monosyllabic communications with these two. Any more than that and I fear that we may lose them alotogether.:D

[Michael Garrity]

AD Millar

the D stands for what? Dummy?Dodo?Keep up with the latest in construction.Is your eye sight failing or is it time for your afternoon nap.It is all in the manufacturers website.It's called reading.I must say some of the stuff you write is funny.Probably not intentional but funny all the same.Thanks A.D. your the man.:):):)

[A.D. Miller]

AD Millar

MG: That's "Miller" to you.


is it time for your afternoon nap.

MG: Had it already.


It is all in the manufacturers website.

MG: Help this old guy by pointing it out to me.


It's called reading.

MG: Seems I heard something about that.



I must say some of the stuff you write is funny.Probably not intentional but funny all the same.


MG: Funny in a cynical kind of fashion.

[phil kaznowski]

I spoke with three reputable roofers in the area that all said the same thing, " a starter course at the rake portion of the eave is a better practice in snow country due to ice dams, but is not required." One of the roofers has said that some manufacturers do require this and I am going to research. Any information found will be relayed.

Thanks for the discussion (and help!)

Phil K.
Clio, CA

[Raymond Wand]

Have seen many roofs up here with the starter strip as described. Have seen other roofs without. Its a personal preference of the roofer, and there is no problem with doing it.

Its the same arguement about tapping wire nuts, its not prescribed in the code but it is not against code.

Also factor in regional differences.

Also see
Home Improvement 1-2-3 - Google Books (http://books.google.ca/books?id=eOzXMLbk0sQC&pg=PA478&lpg=PA478&dq=asphalt+starter+strip&source=bl&ots=K6HAhCSJkb&sig=83h9xXqukZH2DPzF-GINx3DRvZY&hl=en&ei=pIh7SrG1PI7mMZWWrPYC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=asphalt%20starter%20strip&f=false)

Starter Strip (http://emcobp.com/products.aspx?f=1&cat=1&id=8)

[Jerry Peck]

Have seen many roofs up here with the starter strip as described. Have seen other roofs without. Its a personal preference of the roofer, and there is no problem with doing it.

Its the same arguement about tapping wire nuts, its not prescribed in the code but it is not against code.

Also factor in regional differences.

Raymond,

To all the above statements: Nope.

It depends on the manufacturer's installation instructions as to whether or not it is allowed.

And the manufacturer's installation instructions ARE CODE.

It IS NOT "preference of the roofer".

It is completely different than the wire nut discussion.

It is not a factor of regional difference ... UNLESS ... you guessed it ... UNLESS the manufacturer's installation instructions allow for it.

Thus, all that Aaron and I are asking for is for someone to produce a set of MANUFACTURER'S INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS which shows that, and Phil has said he is checking on that.

You, Michael, and Brandon are only throwing in 'Well, I've seen it done that way, and the roofers say ... '

You ever hear, for example, electricians say 'Oh, it is okay to put two neutral conductors in the same terminal in the panel.'?

Most likely the answer is yes, so that provides a lot of credibility for believing contractors, especially roofers, right? That is what you are saying.

Aaron and I are simply asking for someone to "prove it" ... "show us" a manufacturer's installation instruction which shows or states that is allowable.

[Michael Garrity]

and again

http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20215.pdf

[Michael Garrity]

You, Michael, and Brandon are only throwing in 'Well, I've seen it done that way, and the roofers say ... '

I sent plenty of links.If your too lazy to look and read that is your problem

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

Why don't you provide documentation where it is not allowed? If its not mentioned as a no no in the code its not against code. Remember the code is a minimum, therefore your arguements in my opinion are moot. The installation is not harmful nor can be shown to be a detriment to the shingles or decking, or longevity.

This is not a home inspection issue and it certainly is not a deal blower, regardless whether you think it incorrect fwiw.

Cheers,

[Raymond Wand]

Michael

Thats very compelling info at the link, and it really cannot be disputed as none of the other so-called experts have provided contradictory evidence but only their opinions based on .... hmmmm ... based on.... hmmmmm :D

Thanks for the link. I like reading! :)

[Brandon Whitmore]

JP: I think you should resort to monosyllabic communications with these two. Any more than that and I fear that we may lose them alotogether.:D

I only had a few minutes to post before going out on a job. I don't always have the time to sit down and research things, especially when something is flat out a non issue in my opinion.

If a rake starter course shingle is installed, and then the manufacturers spec's are met on top of that shingle, what is the problem? What if someone installs ice and water shield at a rake edge, and the manufacturers installation instructions don't specifically state that it needs to be installed, is it wrong? What if a roofer uses an 8x8 tin shingle for step flashing instead of the manufacturers recommended 5x8, is that a defect?

I challenge you to contact any shingle manufacturers technical rep who will put something in writing stating that a rake starter is not allowed. It looks like you may have some free time on your hands to get that done..:D

[Brandon Whitmore]

MG: Good luck with that. I just revisited ARMA, NRCA, GAF, Certainteed, and Owens-Corning materials - nada, nothing at all about starter strips under the shingles at the rake. Maybe you dreamed this . . .:confused:

Here's the mention : http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20216.pdf
It's already been posted, but just wanted to post it again.


MG: Again, and not to put too fine a point on it, I am looking for the recommendations not in the pre-made starter strip material literature, but rather in the shingle installation instructions.

Why would a manufacturer make the stuff, show where it is to be installed, and then not allow it???

Here's another Google book that shows the installation if you care to see it: http://books.google.com/books?id=LioRcqIJbIAC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=rake+starter+course+installation&source=bl&ots=lX24pfscZP&sig=Ld3nbfqE823uuP_VCDQQ4h5UyxQ&hl=en&ei=1aZ7SvD0KIiwswOs1KDuCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=rake%20starter%20course%20installation&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=LioRcqIJbIAC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=rake+starter+course+installation&source=bl&ots=lX24pfscZP&sig=Ld3nbfqE823uuP_VCDQQ4h5UyxQ&hl=en&ei=1aZ7SvD0KIiwswOs1KDuCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=rake%20starter%20course%20installation&f=false)

Here's some info. from Certainteed:

(for use with Grand Manor ™, Centennial Slate™ and Hatteras® shingles)
(required for Presidential Shake™ TL and Presidential Shake™ shingles)
(for use with English-sized shingles 12" x 36" and
metric-sized shingles 13-1/4" x 38-3/4")

CertainTeed
Starter—English
CertainTeed
Starter—Metric

Metric starter shingle is designed specifically for use with Landmark™

Series shingles. Rather than cutting expensive field shingles to use as
starters, you can save time and money by starting with Swiftstart.

Swiftstart

• “Hatteras” dual-sealant strips at bottom edge for 110 mph wind
resistance
• Installation is a snap — no need to cut tabs off expensive shingles
• Provides a straight factory-cut eave edge for a clean look
• Excellent as a rake edge for increased wind resistance
• Saves time and money
• Required for Hatteras wind warranty coverage

Taken from here: http://www.certainteed.com/resources/accessories.pdf

[A.D. Miller]

Here's the mention : http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20216.pdf
It's already been posted, but just wanted to post it again.



Why would a manufacturer make the stuff, show where it is to be installed, and then not allow it???

Here's another Google book that shows the installation if you care to see it: Renovation - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=LioRcqIJbIAC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=rake+starter+course+installation&source=bl&ots=lX24pfscZP&sig=Ld3nbfqE823uuP_VCDQQ4h5UyxQ&hl=en&ei=1aZ7SvD0KIiwswOs1KDuCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=rake%20starter%20course%20installation&f=false)

Here's some info. from Certainteed:

(for use with Grand Manor

™, Centennial Slate™ and Hatteras® shingles)

(required for Presidential Shake


™ TL and Presidential Shake™ shingles)

(for use with English-sized shingles 12" x 36" and
metric-sized shingles 13-1/4" x 38-3/4")
CertainTeed
Starter—English
CertainTeed
Starter—Metric
Metric starter shingle is designed specifically for use with Landmark


™

Series shingles. Rather than cutting expensive field shingles to use as
starters, you can save time and money by starting with Swiftstart.
Swiftstart
• “Hatteras” dual-sealant strips at bottom edge for 110 mph wind
resistance
• Installation is a snap — no need to cut tabs off expensive shingles
• Provides a straight factory-cut eave edge for a clean look
• Excellent as a rake edge for increased wind resistance
• Saves time and money
• Required for Hatteras wind warranty coverage

Taken from here: http://www.certainteed.com/resources/accessories.pdf


BW: At the risk of repeating myself over and over and over again, I am not looking for the installation instructions for the manufacturers' pre-made starter strips which they, with good reason, have a vested interest in promoting. MG, using his one-trick-pony approach, has already attempted to drill this red herring into our minds, with high hopes that his bluff is not called.

I am interested in seeing in black and white at least one manufacturer's shingle installation instructions which makes even the slightest mention of rake starter strips.

You find it, post it, and I'll buy it. Otherwise quit wasting my time with your repetitious runaround BS.:D

[Jerry Peck]

GAF Materials Corp - Residential and Commercial Roofing (http://www.gaf.com/General/GafMain.asp?Silo=RES1&WS=GAF&App=ROOF&Force=RS_whyuse_shinchart.html)

Go to the GAF site, click on 'Shingles Styles & Colors', click on 'Royall Sovereign', scroll down and click on the 'Application Instructions' (that is what the link above is *supposed to* link to, but I believe the GAF site does not allow that direct link).

Okay, do you have have yet?

Okay, SHOW ME IN THERE where that is allowed.

Maybe I am just missing it.

[A.D. Miller]

GAF Materials Corp - Residential and Commercial Roofing (http://www.gaf.com/General/GafMain.asp?Silo=RES1&WS=GAF&App=ROOF&Force=RS_whyuse_shinchart.html)

Go to the GAF site, click on 'Shingles Styles & Colors', click on 'Royall Sovereign', scroll down and click on the 'Application Instructions' (that is what the link above is *supposed to* link to, but I believe the GAF site does not allow that direct link).

Okay, do you have have yet?

Okay, SHOW ME IN THERE where that is allowed.

Maybe I am just missing it.

JP: You can't miss what is not there. Interestingly, GAF has a video on their site showing the precise method for installation a starter row. It appears that nothing at all is said or shown regarding the rake.

[Corn Walker]

I am interested in seeing in black and white at least one manufacturer's shingle installation instructions which makes even the slightest mention of rake starter strips.

You find it, post it, and I'll buy it. Otherwise quit wasting my time with your repetitious runaround BS.:D

[/LEFT]

So that's the ONLY standard of evidence you'll allow? The shingle installation instructions must specifically mention using a starter strip at the rake? And why exactly should the OP care about your standard of evidence?

Let's look at a single manufacturer: IKO.

The IKO shingle installation instructions (http://www.iko.com/shared/residential/installation/3TTSP.pdf) mention the following about the rake:

Apply metal drip edges on top of any underlay along rake edges and directly to the deck along eaves.

They don't say what kind of drip edge to use or how wide it should be, only that there should be one. But since because they don't mention additional rake details does that mean that any additional detail, above and beyond the minimum requirements in the instructions, are disallowed? Of course that doesn't make sense. Here's what the instructions say about eave protection.

EAVE PROTECTION:
Apply eave protection as per building code requirements, overhanging eaves by 1/4" to 3/8" and extending up the roof at least 12" beyond the interior wall line. Ice & Water Protector is recommended for best performance, applied according to instructions printed on each box.

So if I look at the box for the IKO Ice & Water protector what do I read?

Drip Edge
• Drip edges must be located under the membrane at the eaves, and over the membrane at rake edges.

So the shingle install references the membrane install, which references drip edges at the eaves and rakes. But does that mean I can only use IKO Ice & Water as my underlayment since it's the only brand mentioned in their installation instructions? That's a rhetorical question; of course I can use any underlayment that meets the minimum performance standards required. So while we're sticking with a single manufacturer here, we should be clear that other roofing details may be provided by other manufacturers unless specifically disallowed.

Now the IKO shingle instructions don't say anything about their starter strip product. In fact, they mention cutting the tabs off of 3-tab shingles:

STARTER COURSE: If 3-tab shingles are used, cut off the tabs along a line level with the top of the cutouts, and install the starter course with the factory applied sealant adjacent to the eaves overhanging the rake edge and eaves by 1/4" - 3/8". Begin starter course (A) with a shingle cut 4" short so that joints will not coincide with joints between first course shingles.


But what if I'm using their architectural shingles? There are no tabs to cut off. What's a guy to do? Oh, they make a starter strip product for this installation you say? How convenient. Here the installation instructions (http://www.iko.com/shared/residential/installation/LeadingEdgeMetric.pdf) specifically state:

IKO’S LEADING EDGE SHINGLES CAN BE USED AS A STARTER STRIP EITHER BENEATH THE FIRST COURSE OF ROOF SHINGLES, OR AT RAKE EDGES. AT THE RAKES, IKO’S LEADING EDGE PROVIDES A STRAIGHT EDGE TO TRIM THE OVERLAYING COURSES TO, AND HELP SEALS THE SHINGLE ENDS, REDUCING WIND DAMAGE.

They further go on to state:

APPLICATION - RAKE EDGES
1. APPLY ANY UNDERLAYMENT, FLASHINGS OR DRIP EDGES REQUIRED.
2. ALIGN LEADING EDGE SHINGLE VERTICALLY UP THE RAKE EDGE, OVERHANGING THE RAKE EDGE BY 1/4” TO 3/8”. ENSURE THE STRIP IS LAYING FLAT, GRANULE SIDE UP, WITH THE SEALANT SPOTS TOWARDS THE OUTER EDGE OF THE ROOF. FASTEN WITH ENOUGH NAILS TO HOLD THE PRODUCT IN PLACE UNTIL THE APPLICATION OF THE FIELD COURSES OF ROOFING SHINGLES.
3. APPLY ROOF SHINGLES AS PER THE INSTRUCTIONS PRINTED ON EACH PRODUCT’S PACKAGE, TRIMMING THE RAKE EDGE OF THE PRODUCT EVEN WITH THE EDGE OF THE LEADING EDGE SHINGLES.

In sum, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. The installation instructions don't mention every possible installation or finishing detail. They don't even mention using a starter strip that's not a three tab shingle with the tabs cut off. By your standard, you're not allowed to use a pre-fab starter strip at the eaves - let alone at the rake - since they're not "in black and white" in the "manufacturer's shingle installation instructions."

In the case of start strips, it seems clear that they are not disallowed, that they should be installed according to their instructions, and those instructions allow for installation at the rake edge. If this was contrary to the shingle installation instructions then one would expect that they would specifically state such, either in the shingle instructions or the starter strip instructions, especially when both products are made by the same manufacturer. Given that the manufacturer recommends it (albeit not where you want to see it recommended) and it's not disallowed by code or installation instructions or technical data sheet or local codes or... well, you draw your own conclusion.

[A.D. Miller]

CW: After all of that jiggling of keyboard keys you still miss the point. My original post said, "To my knowledge there are no manufacturers who recommend a starter row under the rake shingles. There is also no mention of this type of installation in the NRCA's manual."

At no time have I said this cannot be done. I also never said that it should not be done. I said only what I said and you cannot prove otherwise. So then, the question remains the same to one and all. Where are the manufacturers' shingle installation instructions that EVERYONE HAS SEEN and that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT and that ALL GOOD ROOFERS FOLLOW when they install starter rows at rakes?

Where, oh where, can these be?:D

[Corn Walker]

At no time have I said this cannot be done. I also never said that it should not be done. I said only what I said and you cannot prove otherwise. So then, the question remains the same to one and all. Where are the manufacturers' shingle installation instructions that EVERYONE HAS SEEN and that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT and that ALL GOOD ROOFERS FOLLOW when they install starter rows at rakes?

Where, oh where, can these be?:D

Who cares?

A better question is, is it good practice, bad practice, recommended practice, or disallowed practice?

1) It appears to be good practice, particularly in high-wind areas.
2) No evidence found to indicate it's bad practice.
3) They are recommended by the starter strip manufacturers, who not so coincidentally are also the shingle manufacturers, for high wind areas.
4) No evidence thus far that they are disallowed.

So if all of the evidence points to it being good and recommended practice, then it seems to me the only problem is that it's not widely recommended enough in the shingle installation instructions. But hey, how is that different than any practice that goes above and beyond the code and manufacturer's minimums?

[A.D. Miller]

Who cares?

CW: I do. It was my question.



A better question is, is it good practice, bad practice, recommended practice, or disallowed practice?


CW: Better for you, perhaps, but not for me. Those are your questions and not mine.



1) It appears to be good practice, particularly in high-wind areas.
2) No evidence found to indicate it's bad practice.
3) They are recommended by the starter strip manufacturers, who not so coincidentally are also the shingle manufacturers, for high wind areas.
4) No evidence thus far that they are disallowed.


CW: No argument there. But then, there is nothing I know of in writing that says you cannot also apply peanut butter to the roofing nails before you drive them.


So if all of the evidence points to it being good and recommended practice,

CW: No. What would point to it being a recommended practice is a written recommendation from a recognized authority. That would not be you.


then it seems to me the only problem is that it's not widely recommended enough in the shingle installation instructions.

CW: No again. It is not only not widely recommended. It is simply NOT recommended.



But hey, how is that different than any practice that goes above and beyond the code and manufacturer's minimums?


CW: It's not.

[Corn Walker]

CW: No. What would point to it being a recommended practice is a written recommendation from a recognized authority. That would not be you.

It's not you either. So?

In the example I quoted it is in fact recommended by a code recognized authority - the shingle manufacturer. I understand that you don't think the starter strip installation instructions are a sufficient recommendation. However your posts on this subject don't incline me to place much stock in what you think because thus far you haven't contributed anything other than ad hominems and repeating your question.

Here, I'll answer the question you asked plus some questions questions of my own (because I think my questions are better than yours).

Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufactures?
A: Yes, most shingle manufacturers recommend the use of starter strips.

Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufacturer to be installed at the rake?
A: Yes, in at least two cases the shingle manufacturers provide a written recommendation to install starter strips at the rake for appearance and wind performance reasons.

Q: Are the recommendation for starter strips to be installed at the rake written in the shingle installation instructions?
A: None have been found so far.

I think you know this already but you just like taking a piss on these boards. To each his own I presume.

[Michael Garrity]

J.P and AD home inspectors answer to Laurel and Hardy. Very very funny.I thought you were a lot smarter Jerry.I know you like to get the last word in and that's ok. Now AD over in Texas. I really pity your customers.

[Raymond Wand]

Michael

You can lead a horse to water, but....

[Jerry Peck]

J.P and AD home inspectors answer to Laurel and Hardy. Very very funny.I thought you were a lot smarter Jerry.I know you like to get the last word in and that's ok. Now AD over in Texas. I really pity your customers.


When you get to court and the opposing attorney ask "And to what standard is your method based on?", you can answer "Well, *I* think it is better that way.", while Aaron and I will say "On page so-and-so of such-and-such installation instructions it shows and says to do ... ".

Guess which one wins?

Hint: It will not be "Well, *I* think it is better that way."

[Michael Garrity]

Your standards are slipping Jerry.Remove your blinkers,put on your reading glasses and look through the links again.Case closed.See you in different thread or post.BYE:)

[Raymond Wand]

An attorney would not be asking that question because there is nothing wrong with the installation of a starter strip, no one can prove its not wrong but the evidence by way of links and in the field suggests otherwise. Prove it is a faulty installation! No one can!

It is not an issue and is certainly not going to affect a realestate deal because there is no problem. Therefore the issue is moot in a court of law.

[Brandon Whitmore]

It sounds like we've all had our say on this one. Anyone else that ever has this question can now find what they need here. There's enough info. for a person to form their own professional opinion.

To the OP-- good question:D

Next question..............

[Corn Walker]

When you get to court and the opposing attorney ask "And to what standard is your method based on?", you can answer "Well, *I* think it is better that way.", while Aaron and I will say "On page so-and-so of such-and-such installation instructions it shows and says to do ... ".

Guess which one wins?

Hint: It will not be "Well, *I* think it is better that way."

While in general that is true, that is not true of this specific case because we do have installation instructions "on page so and so." At that point the opposing counsels can piss over whether or not the fact that GAF or IKO or whoever else makes a product and recommends installing it along the rake are thereby warranting it for a specific purpose. It would be one thing if there was no mention anywhere about installing it along the rake. It's another thing when the product IKO makes as a starter course for their own shingles also recommends installing it along the rake.

I just talked with a few roofing buddies and some do install along the rake (and all of them for aesthetic reasons) while some don't. I talked to one GC who only uses starter strip along the rake - no drip edge. Hmmm... I wonder if *that* practice is defensible.

[Jerry Peck]

While in general that is true, that is not true of this specific case because we do have installation instructions "on page so and so." At that point the opposing counsels can piss over whether or not the fact that GAF or IKO or whoever else makes a product and recommends installing it along the rake are thereby warranting it for a specific purpose.

Except that Plaintiff's counsel would ask: Please provide the court with a copy of the GAF engineer's letter which modifies the installation instructions and refers to those additional instructions on a document which even by the manufacturer calls "Sell Sheet" for "selling" those strips."

Would you be able to produce that letter?

If you contacted GAF and they issued an addendum to the manufacturer's installation instructions and changed all future installation instructions to include the new information, then you would have a copy of that engineer's letter.

A "Sell Sheet" for ways to sell something to be used to generate business is not going to cut it.

Would the GAF letter be easy to get? Probably. And then you would have the manufacturer ON RECORD as having modified THEIR installation instructions to include those starter strips up the rakes, and THEN it would hold water (in court, not as in leak).

[Corn Walker]

The GAF sheet may be a sell sheet, but the IKO link I provided is an "installation instructions" sheet. Any problems with that? :p

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

Thats fine and dandy but there is not compelling information assisting you and your attorney in what you are trying to sell. You are basing your arguement on an assumption that a starter strip is wrong, and affects the performance and functionality of the shingles/roof but your arguement goes no where its baseless.

[Jerry Peck]

You are basing your arguement on an assumption that a starter strip is wrong, and affects the performance and functionality of the shingles/roof but your arguement goes no where its baseless.


Raymond,

Quite incorrect.

You are now sounding like what's-his-name ... :)

I am basing my argument on the fact that it was NOT DONE as specified in the manufacturer's installation installation instructions.

Whether or not it it affects the performance or functionality of the system.

Like what's-his-name you really need to read what is written, not what you think you want it to say.

What is written is that it is wrong BECAUSE *it does not meet* the installation instructions.

In that first post I note that the water would run laterally - it will, just like when a roof deck has dips in it, and it does leak, *I* have seen it.

But ... It is wrong BECAUSE *it does not meet* the installation instructions.

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

Did it ever occur to you that you could be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that you are not making yourself clear? Its clear to me that others are having a hard time comprehending what you are trying to impart.

It doesn't matter whether it meets installation instructions unless you are trying to say that the installation will void the shingle warranty?

[Corn Walker]

Sometimes I read this board and I can't shake that feeling that someone is wrong on the internet. Then I remember it's just the internet and I can sleep.

[A.D. Miller]

(because I think my questions are better than yours).


CW: Yes, and you are full of questions; just no answers.



Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufactures?
A: Yes, most shingle manufacturers recommend the use of starter strips.


CW: Agreed except that I would make that all and not most.



Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufacturer to be installed at the rake?
A: Yes, in at least two cases the shingle manufacturers provide a written recommendation to install starter strips at the rake for appearance and wind performance reasons.


CW: I have covered this ground already. Your argument is flat.



Q: Are the recommendation for starter strips to be installed at the rake written in the shingle installation instructions?
A: None have been found so far.


CW: And, I believe, you will not find any. That is all my original statement indicated.



I think you know this already but you just like taking a piss on these boards. To each his own I presume.


CW: What I am after is having HIs - to include myself - state facts and not personal preferences, industry mythology, or just plain BS.:D

[Raymond Wand]

In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material. (http://www.elkcorp.com/warranty/warranty_completeelk.cfm)

Starter course
http://www.guardianbp.com/docs%5Croof%5CGRA_starterstrip_spec.pdf

[A.D. Miller]

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material. (http://www.elkcorp.com/warranty/warranty_completeelk.cfm)

Starter course
http://www.guardianbp.com/docs%5Croof%5CGRA_starterstrip_spec.pdf

RW: No meat there.

[Raymond Wand]

AD

In your opinion!. :D

In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.

[A.D. Miller]

AD

In your opinion!. :D

In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.

RW: OK then, but only Elk meat.:rolleyes:

[Mike Schulz]

J.P and AD you guys are way off on this one. Sky is falling the sky is falling. I personally never done it that way. When the immigrants where hired in the early 90's they ran starter up the rakes because they could not cut a straight line if there life depended on it. Chalk line......Mespeak no englay. Now all homes are that way unless you find a Caucasian to install them.

Running a starter course is not going to void any warranty. As stated before it's no different then any other underlayment. and as long as the nails penetrate the sheathing it's Kosher.

Explain what would be different between the starter on the eave and starter on the rake as far as integrity? I know it is for covering keys on the eave but in what way is it going to affect the rake? Water running lateral..........Paleeeeesssssseeeeeeeeee. You guy's are blinded by your "I am right, Ideology" Or is that idiotology .....Hold back AD and Jerry no love loss here :)

If you read your instructions most of the time they *recommend* a certain way and don't directly say It *must* be this way. That alone will stand up in court...........Works for the AHJ on complaints around here.

here comes the heat :D

Mike

[Jerry Peck]

J.P and AD you guys are way off on this one. Sky is falling the sky is falling. I personally never done it that way. When the immigrants where hired in the early 90's they ran starter up the rakes because they could not cut a straight line if there life depended on it. Chalk line......Mespeak no englay. Now all homes are that way unless you find a Caucasian to install them.

Running a starter course is not going to void any warranty. As stated before it's no different then any other underlayment. and as long as the nails penetrate the sheathing it's Kosher.

Explain what would be different between the starter on the eave and starter on the rake as far as integrity? I know it is for covering keys on the eave but in what way is it going to affect the rake? Water running lateral..........Paleeeeesssssseeeeeeeeee. You guy's are blinded by your "I am right, Ideology" Or is that idiotology .....Hold back AD and Jerry no love loss here :)

If you read your instructions most of the time they *recommend* a certain way and don't directly say It *must* be this way. That alone will stand up in court...........Works for the AHJ on complaints around here.

here comes the heat :D

Mike

Instead of you guys ranting on and on and on and on ... about that practice being okay, I have been wondering why one of you did not simply e-mail the manufacturer you like and get a specific approval from their engineering department which specifically states that running those starter strips up the rakes IS ACCEPTABLE UNDER THEIR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS and that they will send you a revised installation instruction with that information contained in it, and all new installation instructions will include that information.

It really IS THAT SIMPLE.

Aaron and I has been asking for someone to produce installation instructions which supports your arguments, and ... as yet ... not a one of you has done that ... not even to the post above this post (not unless I missed something above in some posts I may have inadvertently skipped over.

It really IS THAT SIMPLE.

Produce manufacturers documentation (installation instructions) which supports your opinion, and I will accept that documentation.

In the mean time, though, it does you absolutely no good to continue to rant that it is okay IN YOUR OPINION.

[Raymond Wand]

Are starter courses failing in the field? Are manufactures voiding their warranties? Are disgruntled home owners calling their inspectors to task for not calling out starter strips?
Does the code address starter strips? Unfortunately there are a myriad of installations where field modification or local code may approve such installations.

I would like to see documentation please, only because it interests me from a legal pov.

Thanks,

[Raymond Wand]

..... I have been wondering why one of you did not simply e-mail the manufacturer you like and get a specific approval from their engineering department which specifically states that running those starter strips up the rakes IS ACCEPTABLE UNDER THEIR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS ....

... produce installation instructions which supports your arguments, and ... as yet ... not a one of you has done that ... not even to the post above this post (not unless I missed something above in some posts I may have inadvertently skipped over.

Produce manufacturers documentation (installation instructions) which supports your opinion, and I will accept that documentation.


Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?

Jerry what have you or Aaron provided to support your arguement? NOTHING! Please back up your opinion with something tangible. Who are you to judge that which is acceptable?

Yes Jerry it really is that SIMPLE! :rolleyes:

[Jerry Peck]

Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip?

Raymond,

Yep, I sure missed that part, can you point that part out to me?

I am STILL missing that part.

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry,

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material. (http://www.elkcorp.com/warranty/warranty_completeelk.cfm)

[Mike Schulz]

This is Owen and Corning peel and stick (compatible with all there shingle products). Introduction states it replaces the need to cutting off the tabs. So it was designed to do the same thing as a conventional shingle on the rake except this cuts down the time of trimming off the tabs. http://www.owenscorning.eu/docs/shingles/startershingleroll_install.pdf

[Brandon Whitmore]

Now all homes are that way unless you find a Caucasian to install them.

Must be a regional thing. I know one roofing company that was doing this 30 years ago-- all of them are/ were white dudes that actually cared about their finished product. They got rid of their roofing company because they couldn't make any money at it any more, and now just have their remodeling business.

I've got e- mails in already........................................... ...........;)

[Jerry Peck]

Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?


Raymond,

Yep, I sure missed that part, can you point that part out to me?

I am STILL missing that part.


Jerry,

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material. (http://www.elkcorp.com/warranty/warranty_completeelk.cfm)

Raymond,

I think you need to actually read what you are posting ... you ARE NOT posting something which states what did said, and you are STILL missing that.

Post here the part you are referring to, then quote yourself under that text, then tell me if you see the difference and understand what I am trying to point out to you.

[Jerry Peck]

This is Owen and Corning peel and stick (compatible with all there shingle products). Introduction states it replaces the need to cutting off the tabs. So it was designed to do the same thing as a conventional shingle on the rake except this cuts down the time of trimming off the tabs. http://www.owenscorning.eu/docs/shingles/startershingleroll_install.pdf


(bold, underlined, red text is mine)
"Before installing this product, check roofing manufacturer’s application instructions and local building codes for their roofing requirements."

"Precautionary Note: The manufacturer will not be responsible for problems resulting from any deviation from the recommended application instructions and the following precautions:"

[Corn Walker]

Instead of you guys ranting on and on and on and on ... about that practice being okay, I have been wondering why one of you did not simply e-mail the manufacturer you like and get a specific approval from their engineering department which specifically states that running those starter strips up the rakes IS ACCEPTABLE UNDER THEIR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS and that they will send you a revised installation instruction with that information contained in it, and all new installation instructions will include that information.

It really IS THAT SIMPLE.

Are you f'in kidding me? Unlike many other products, the shingle instructions are usually printed on the bundle wrapper. While they may send a letter saying it's okay (I have a request in - despite how ridiculous the request is considering they already have it on the starter install sheet) I doubt they will agree to alter their printing rig simply to say it's okay to install the start strips along the rake. I mean, seriously, it's one thing if the altered language will remedy an installation deficiency. It's entirely another thing to have them incur the printing expense just to say a practice they recommend elsewhere is okay to do.

Sometimes I really do wonder... is this what I'll be like when I retire? So much time on my hands that I'll resort to stirring up tempests in teapots?

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

If you are having a hard time understanding what I am writing or stating or interepting I am having as much trouble trying to interpret what you are trying to convey. :confused:

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material. (http://www.elkcorp.com/warranty/warranty_prestique_inter.cfm)


** For a Limited Wind Warranty up to 110 MPH/177 KPH for Prestique Plus or Prestique Gallery Collection, or 90 MPH/145 KPH for Prestique I, at least six (6) properly placed NAILS and Elk Starter Strip shingles are required. See application instructions printed on the Shingle wrapper.

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material. (http://www.elkcorp.com/warranty/warranty_completeelk.cfm)


In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.


4. Starter Strip – the first step to a great start for a lasting roof that can withstand severe winds.

Elk Starter Strip – helps protect your home from the elements and completes your roof.
7.2" StartRite™ Roll - standard asphalt, granular surfaced, fiberglass reinforced
with WindGuard® sealant.
7.2" KwikStart™ Roll - self-adhering SBS-modified asphalt, mineral surfaced,
fiberglass reinforced with WindGuard sealant.
9" Starter Roll - standard asphalt, granular surfaced, fiberglass reinforced with
WindGuard sealant.

[Jerry Peck]

While they may send a letter saying it's okay (I have a request in

Good.

That is what I was looking for - someone to do that.


I doubt they will agree to alter their printing rig simply to say it's okay to install the start strips along the rake.

You don't think they ever make changes to those printed installation instructions? They make changes every time something related changes, such as the standard and the standard date, when errors are found, etc., ....

You've got to be absolutely joking if you think they are printing the same thing they did back in 1960 or 1970, or even 1980, or even 1994 (after the nailing changed after Hurricane Andrew), or ... :rolleyes:

"Are you f'in kidding me?" Someone would need to be totally out of their mind to think that printing is never changed.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry

If you are having a hard time understanding what I am writing or stating or interepting I am having as much trouble trying to interpret what you are trying to convey. :confused:

Raymond,

So you are telling me that you STILL DO NOT SEE the difference between what YOU SAID and what THEY SAID?

Please don't tell me I have to explain that difference and point it out for you.

If you can't post what the difference is, I will point it out to you - just thought that would not be necessary.

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry didn't your mom ever tell ya not to skate on thin ice? Oooops sorry its a regional thing...Florida no ice.. Canada land of ice and snow... :D;)

[Corn Walker]

"Are you f'in kidding me?" Someone would need to be totally out of their mind to think that printing is never changed.

Thanks for quote-mining me. Go back and read the whole quote. I know they change their printing. They change it when the standard is updated. They change it when practices are updated to remedy a deficiency (hurricanes have a way of showing what works and what doesn't). What I'm saying is that this isn't one of those cases - you're expecting them to change it simply to say an optional practice that they recommend elsewhere is okay to do. Which frankly doesn't seem to fall into the "important" category to me.

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

Point it out to me please.

[Jerry Peck]

Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?


Jerry didn't your mom ever tell ya not to skate on thin ice? Oooops sorry its a regional thing...Florida no ice.. Canada land of ice and snow... :D;)


Raymond,

Obviously, along with other things, you have forgotten that I am originally from the frozen tundra 40 miles south of Buffalo, NY, where the auto races would be held on the lake when it froze 6 inches thick and thicker, on a lake which would freeze to several feet deep.

This is what that document says:
"In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles."

" ... did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?"

Now, I for one am having a difficult time finding the phrases "7 year warranty is void if" or "installation must include a starter strip" to get the manufacturer's warranty.

Go back and re-read that, Raymond, and you will see ... er ... SHOULD SEE ... that they are referring to an ADDITIONAL WARRANTY, NOT the manufacturer's warranty on the shingles, but AN ADDITIONAL WARRANTY ... their super-duper-ultra-whiz-bang "full system warranty" which purportedly is not pro-rated for that 7 years.

Will you still get THE MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY WHEN YOU DO NOT install those things? You betcha you will, just like they have been giving all this time in the past.

Even that does not say it will void the warranty, it just says you won't get that warranty if you don't do it that way.

That new fangled warranty just says it is not pro-rated, it does not say they will still not look for any way possible to not honor the warranty.

Raymond, you really do need to read - read - what you are arguing about and saying about it.

Oh, by the way, that thin ice you were referring to ... I hear it cracking all around you, better be careful. :) :D

[Jerry Peck]

They change it when practices are updated to remedy a deficiency


BINGO!

We have a winner!

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

I appreciate your points, while I don't agree with you, thats okay, I can appreciate we all have our experiences and our abilities to interpret the data. My apologies for asking for you to prove your points with documents which are solely based on your opinions. :) :cool:

[Jerry Peck]

Raymond,

So you STILL DO NOT understand what you said and what that said and what the difference is?

Okay, I'll try to make this real simple for you:

Can you void something you do not have?

When something says they will not give you a better warranty but do not take away the original warranty do you still have the original warranty?

Not sure how much simpler I can make it for you.

Here is another way to put it:

I give you $100.

I say I will give you $1,000 if you do a), b), and c), but only if you do a), b), and c).

Did I void (take back) the $100? No, you still kept that.

Did I void (take back) the $1,000? No, you never had it.

Do you have to do a), b), and c)? No. Not if you don't care about the $1,000.

Do you now understand the difference between what you said and what they said?

[Corn Walker]

BINGO!

We have a winner!

What have I won?

It cuts both ways my friend.

If installing starter shingles along the rake was a deficiency and the mfr is recommending elsewhere that this is a good idea, would they not, by this logic, change the instructions to remedy the deficient advice they provided elsewhere? That is, if it were a bad thing we would expect them to remove the recommendation from the starter shingle instructions and also note in the shingle installation instructions: "don't install starter strips along the rake."

If there were a deficiency that starter shingles along the rake ameliorated, then we would expect them to add a note to the shingle instructions, "install starter strips along the rake."

But they haven't done either, and thinking about how roofing systems work it makes sense that they haven't - starter strips along the rake add primarily aesthetic benefit. I don't believe any claimed that the presence or lack of starter shingles along the rake was a deficiency. And when we read the starter shingle installation instructions they are primarily recommended for aesthetic reasons and improved wind resistance along the rake. Probably not improved enough to warrant a wholesale recommendation, but hey, maybe they will change it.

[Jerry Peck]

If there were a deficiency that starter shingles along the rake ameliorated, then we would expect them to add a note to the shingle instructions, "install starter strips along the rake."

What they have also not done is state: "Rake Options: A) start laying shingles blah, blah, blah; B) install starter strip along rake, start laying shingles on starter strip blah, blah, blah.

And they have not done that either, have they?

[A.D. Miller]

JP: I would jump in here to help you, but you don't seem to need any help. Besides, these boys are so far out on their little twig of a limb, they'll soon hit the ground without much more help from either of us.:D

[A.D. Miller]

RW: You simply did not have to delete that on my account. Go ahead, put it back up here. . . :D

[Raymond Wand]

AD

We are still waitiing for definitive proof you know the type the courts like to see. You haven't provided any fodder yet ... come on you are a CMI after all! :p

[A.D. Miller]

AD

We are still waitiing for definitive proof you know the type the courts like to see. You haven't provided any fodder yet ... come on you are a CMI after all! :p

RW: Check my posts and you will see no mention a request for what "the courts like to see". I am no lawyer or judge, so I don't know what their preferences may be. It is what I would like to see in this instance that counts, at least to me. And, curiously, I have yet to see it, even after all of this banter, blather, and bellicose bravado.:D

[Raymond Wand]

Well AD, the court is the definitive answer as the buck will stop there someday with this matter given the installation is not disallowed, regardless of warranties, and from what I have seen this matter has been less than compelling from the so called experts who have based their arguement solely on opinion.

At least Jerry has been trying to convert us! ;)

[A.D. Miller]

Well AD, the court is the definitive answer as the buck will stop there someday with this matter given the installation is not disallowed, regardless of warranties, and from what I have seen this matter has been less than compelling from the so called experts who have based their arguement solely on opinion.

At least Jerry has been trying to convert us! ;)

RW: I have not attempted to proselytize even one solitary soul. Nor have I ever approached suggesting that the installation is disallowed. This began as and remains a simple request which has yet to be fulfilled.:rolleyes:

[Raymond Wand]

AD

Then provide the proof. :o

[A.D. Miller]

AD

Then provide the proof. :o

RW: Proof of what?:confused:

[Raymond Wand]

CW: After all of that jiggling of keyboard keys you still miss the point. My original post said, "To my knowledge there are no manufacturers who recommend a starter row under the rake shingles. There is also no mention of this type of installation in the NRCA's manual."

At no time have I said this cannot be done. I also never said that it should not be done. I said only what I said and you cannot prove otherwise. So then, the question remains the same to one and all. Where are the manufacturers' shingle installation instructions that EVERYONE HAS SEEN and that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT and that ALL GOOD ROOFERS FOLLOW when they install starter rows at rakes?

Where, oh where, can these be?:D

Okay I think the others and myself have shown that, its just not to your liking.

[A.D. Miller]

Okay I think the others and myself have shown that, its just not to your liking.

RW: I am about to write a macro for this so that I will not find it necessary to re-type it ad infinitum: I would very much like to see a shingle manufacturer's shingle installation instruction which requires a starter row at the roof rake.:(

This is just a one-sentence and very simple request. I guess that Canuck air has frozen some of your vital wetware to the point that certain statements do not compute. This must be one of them.:o

It could also be a moose tick situation. I did not want to broach the subject due to its delicacy.:rolleyes:

[Corn Walker]

RW: I am about to write a macro for this so that I will not find it necessary to re-type it ad infinitum: I would very much like to see a shingle manufacturer's shingle installation instruction which requires a starter row at the roof rake.:(

This is just a one-sentence and very simple request. I guess that Canuck air has frozen some of your vital wetware to the point that certain statements do not compute. This must be one of them.:o


The personal invective is just so lame.

I'd like to point out that you've changed your question from "recommend" to "require." Subtle but very important change. What I've requested is to see if it's "allowed" since they already "recommend" it elsewhere. "Required" is a much higher standard that you're not likely to see.

[Stuart Brooks]

This all assumes the contractor would actually pause a second to read installation instructions.

[Corn Walker]

Here is IKO's response:


Starter strips on the rake is a good idea, especially in high wind
areas. IKO makes every effort to cover the key aspects of shingle
installation on the shingle wrapper, but it is a challenge to fit
everything on there related to the entire roof installation process
(rakes, starters, membranes, underlayments, valleys, flashings,
chimneys, etc.)

I've asked if it's possible to get an engineering statement to that effect (the above response was from their technical support team).

[A.D. Miller]

The personal invective is just so lame.

I'd like to point out that you've changed your question from "recommend" to "require." Subtle but very important change. What I've requested is to see if it's "allowed" since they already "recommend" it elsewhere. "Required" is a much higher standard that you're not likely to see.

CW: That is OK with me, "recommend" works just as well as "require". Either will do. And you are quite wrong about the standard variation. A manufacturer's recommendation is the same as a requirement in the eyes of the code. If it were a mere suggestion, that would be different.

Here's an example: If you were standing in front of me complaining about the "invective" in my posts, I would recommend that you change your tune. If you did not, it would then be required of you. So then can you see how my recommendation would equal a requirement?:D

[A.D. Miller]

This all assumes the contractor would actually pause a second to read installation instructions.

SB: Add to that the probability that he is not even able to read the instructions.

[Corn Walker]

CW: That is OK with me, "recommend" works just as well as "require". Either will do. And you are quite wrong about the standard variation. A manufacturer's recommendation is the same as a requirement in the eyes of the code. If it were a mere suggestion, that would be different.

Here's an example: If you were standing in front of me complaining about the "invective" in my posts, I would recommend that you change your tune. If you did not, it would then be required of you. So then can you see how my recommendation would equal a requirement?:D

No. I suggest you consult a dictionary next time you try to lecture someone about the meaning of words, because you don't know what you're talking about.

I've contacted the mfr. They say it's a good idea but they're not going to change the wrapper because they can't fit every good practice on there. From there I can only assume you just want to argue, not get or provide any helpful information.

I doubt you're in any position to "require" anything of me. Your options would be to listen to the complaint or leave.

Wait, that's a darned good idea - I think I'll be opting for the latter, because you're just being silly now.

[A.D. Miller]

No. I suggest you consult a dictionary next time you try to lecture someone about the meaning of words, because you don't know what you're talking about.


CW: I have 200 of them (collector). Which would you suggest?



From there I can only assume you just want to argue, not get or provide any helpful information.


CW: A perusal of this forum might indicate to anyone with merely a passing interest in the truth that I do contribute helpful information. I often do that through argumentation which, like many Americans, you believe to be less than PC and not the proper format for making ones assertions known to others. Sad, but true.


I doubt you're in any position to "require" anything of me.

CW: You are of course referring to the hypothetical situation I used for demonstration purposes. In that situation I would indeed prevail.



Your options would be to listen to the complaint or leave.


CW: You, my misguided friend, do not regulate my options. Not here. Not elsewhere.


Wait, that's a darned good idea - I think I'll be opting for the latter

CW: Why wait? Make haste!:D

[Mike Schulz]

It's just like a lib :D to twist hings to there own liking. They'll beat around the bush and actually believe what they are saying is true until there nonsense is ignored. :p

[Stuart Brooks]

SB: Add to that the probability that he is not even able to read the instructions.

True, and I had that as a follower but deleted it. It seems there are a lot of contractors in the group so I left that out as well as some comments about NASCAR, Budweiser, and Topless Bars;)

[A.D. Miller]

just like a lib :D to twist hings to there own liking.


MS: And it befits a conservative to be envious of that ability.

[A.D. Miller]

True, and I had that as a follower but deleted it. It seems there are a lot of contractors in the group so I left that out as well as some comments about NASCAR, Budweiser, and Topless Bars;)

SB: Don't be too hard on the Skoal-droolers. Someone has to inhabit that realm of society. Besides, once you drink enough of that poor excuse for a beer, it's all you can do to sit and watch tiny insignificant things go around in a circle.:eek:

Better them than me. :D

[Corn Walker]

Does anyone know if asphalt roofs require the starter course to also be installed up the rake portion of the eave? I live in an area that receives heavy snow, some contractors do it, some don't. I hhave looked high and low including the CBC and this is not addressed.


That depends. If you believe the word "recommend" is the same as "require" and you use starter strips, and the installation instructions for those starter strips "recommends" using them along the rake, then use of the starter strips would "require" that installation.

However, since the asphalt shingle installation instructions don't mention using starter strips along the rake, if you also believe that install instructions not addressing a particular method means that method is disallowed, then using starter strips would put you in the position of requiring you to install something in a manner that is disallowed.

Therefore the only logical remedy to this situation is not to use starter strips. In doing so you avoid this conflict altogether. Instead you should use 3 tab shingles, cut the tabs off, and invert them so the adhesive is along the eave. Using this as your starter course method is the only approved method as it is the only one specified in the installation instructions that does not also lead to a disallowed installation.

Your best bet is to convince the shingle manufacturers to change the installation instructions they print on the bundle wrappers to indicate that starter shingles are 'recommended' (or 'required', take your pick) along the rake or to change the starter strip installation instructions to no longer require (I know, it says 'recommend' but I have it from a reliable source they mean the same thing) installing them along the rake.

In either case, whether they are required or disallowed or both, there's no indication that using them in such a manner is advantageous for snow/ice reasons. The manufacturers state the benefit, were it allowed, is for appearance and wind resistance.

Hope this helps.

[Corn Walker]

CW: I have 200 of them (collector). Which would you suggest?

Pick any one that says "required" is the same as "recommended." Don't rush, I have time.

[Jerry Peck]

I'd like to point out that you've changed your question from "recommend" to "require." Subtle but very important change. What I've requested is to see if it's "allowed" since they already "recommend" it elsewhere. "Required" is a much higher standard that you're not likely to see.

I am still looking for shingle installation instructions which allow that as an option.

I am waiting for a response from GAF to my e-mail I sent them asking them about it.

I will post that e-mail here when I receive it.

[A.D. Miller]

Pick any one that says "required" is the same as "recommended." Don't rush, I have time.

CW: I never said they are synonymous in the daily vernacular. I said what I said. Put that doobie down. Take a deep breath. Go back and read my post. Think about it. Get back to me.:D

[A.D. Miller]

I am still looking for shingle installation instructions which allow that as an option.


JP: It is clear by now that these are not forthcoming.



I am waiting for a response from GAF to my e-mail I sent them asking them about it.

I will post that e-mail here when I receive it.


JP: Oh, would you?:D

[Mike Schulz]

JP no snippet's the whole enchilada the GAF sends ya!!! :)

[A.D. Miller]

JP no snippet's the whole enchilada the GAF sends ya!!! :)

MS: What? You don't trust the Flahidian?:rolleyes:

[Jerry Peck]

JP no snippet's the whole enchilada the GAF sends ya!!! :)

Absolutely, the entire thing.

I am expecting a copy of a revised installation instruction, which would actually show that ALL of us are correct ... Aaron and myself for pointing out that it is not there now, and you others for saying it was okay - meaning that is in NOW okay. :D

At least that is what I am expecting. We shall see.

[A.D. Miller]

At least that is what I am expecting.


JP: Wish in one hand, and . . . in the other . . .:D

[Jerry Peck]

JP: Wish in one hand, and . . . in the other . . .:D

Aaron,

Oh yea of little faith ... I worded my e-mail such that they would be foolish to give it a quick answer.

I am sure my e-mail went from technical support to engineering to ... someone who is aware of what it will take to answer it properly. :D

[phil kaznowski]

I have gotten replies from both GAF and Certainteed stating that they recommend the practice, but they did not answer my origianl question concerning documentation which I am still inquiring on. Once I hear something I will post it.

Phil K.
Clio,CA

[A.D. Miller]

I am sure my e-mail went from technical support to engineering to ... someone who is aware of what it will take to answer it properly.


JP: Well, that will not be me . . .:D

[Mike Moser]

Ribbon courses are generally used so the roofer can be sloppy in the cutting of the rake edge. Most ARMA (Asphalt Roofing Manufactuers ) and the NRCA (National Roofing Contractor Association) specs do not address this . They do not forbid it . It seems to have started as Laminate (dragon tooth shingles ie . Timberline ,oakridge etc became more widely used.) The first usage of ribbbon courses were in valkley area.Certainteed and Gaf / Elk have details of this installation on their web sites

The only problem is if the horizontal shingles are too short and allow cappillary draw of water under the shingles at the rake. It usually is not a problem .It can in areas cause some leakage. A fix would be to caulk the horizontal shingles by starting at the bottom and running a caulk gun under the horizontal shingles and running a bead up the rake. Use only a compatible caulk.(roofing cement , neoprene or Geo cel ) Silicones do not work well in this instance

Mike Moser mjmoser.com:)

[Mike Moser]

If you email me at gusbas@aol.com I can reply with the shingle instructions as a pdf

Mike Moser

[Mike Schulz]

As this thread continues it's wavering our way and AD is going to have to kiss some hairy dairy airs to back step his way out..........;) JP stopped awhile back and went the spec route which was smart not like the smart a#@ remarks by AD :p But that's why I like the guy.....He is persistent and will squirm his way around something in a minute. :)

[Raymond Wand]

Well at the very least we all learned something. Not to be stubborn, all knowing, all seeing, and to be humble in defeat! ;)

[Brandon Whitmore]

Here is the response from Certainteed. No I did not ask them to change their installation instructions:

Good afternoon, Brandon –

Starters on the rake are allowed. It’s diagrammed in the installation instructions for our Hatteras (http://www.certainteed.com/resources/hatterasinstall.pdf) shingle (pg. 4). It is also required for an upgraded wind warranty on our Landmark shingles.

[Raymond Wand]

Thanks Brandon.

[Jerry Peck]

If you email me at gusbas@aol.com I can reply with the shingle instructions as a pdf

Mike Moser


Mike,

The ones you sent me do *not* show that rake starter course. :)

[Jerry Peck]

Well at the very least we all learned something. Not to be stubborn, all knowing, all seeing, and to be humble in defeat! ;)

So far ... no one has been defeated. :D

Once the information is in, no one will still be defeated, and ALL of us will learn something.

What is not yet known. :D

[Jerry Peck]

Here is the response from Certainteed. No I did not ask them to change their installation instructions:

Good afternoon, Brandon –

Starters on the rake are allowed. It’s diagrammed in the installation instructions for our Hatteras (http://www.certainteed.com/resources/hatterasinstall.pdf) shingle (pg. 4). It is also required for an upgraded wind warranty on our Landmark shingles.



Brandon,

Okay, finally there is ONE brand which at least shows the starter strip going up the rake, too bad they do not say so in the instructions.

At least they show it there.

Give a partial thumbs up to CertainTeed for their Hatters, but what about the rest of their shingles and what about the written instructions? (That is the reason for the "partial" thumbs up - it is a start in the right direction.

Now we have to see what GAF says.

Brandon, write back and thank them and ask about their other shingles, and say 'Oh, by the way, can you send me a revised installation instruction when that is incorporated into the text and identified? Thank you.' :cool:

[Ted Menelly]

Not to further this discussion but I have (not lately) in the past seen instructions for high wind areas. One point is from where I use to live in Neptune Beach Florida.

The inspector (city) pointed out high wind on the stipulations for the shingles. The info I received at that time was the starter course on the rakes.

In the north east I saw on several occasions where starter shingles (or roll) on the rakes were used and I read the specs back then as well.

No I am not digging it up from the past but I have seen it and the specs from manufacturers in the past and requirements for high wind protection asked for in the past.

That was good enough for me and I have never been presented with such as not being allowed or cancelling the warranty.

Just a past observation.

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

You seem to be chaning your parameters. I showed you one site with schematics for rake starter course, you challenged that and brought in the warranty issue, now we have another piece of evdence Hatteras and now you want more proof?

Just how did you word that email you said would be infallible so as to get the answer you needed? :D

Jerry you are too funny!

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry

You seem to be chaning your parameters. I showed you one site with schematics for rake starter course, you challenged that and brought in the warranty issue, now we have another piece of evdence Hatteras and now you want more proof?

Raymond,

Again, it comes down to reading ...

The link you provided did not include anything about that IN THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTION FOR THE SHINGLES.

The link Brandon provided DID include that in the drawing IN THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE SHINGLES.

It is all in reading and understanding what is written and not jumping to conclusions which you think will support your case, and then actually reading the information and finding out otherwise.

I really do not know how else to say it ... it is in reading what is written, in these posts and in the installation instructions.

I have not changed my position at all, Brandon provided an SHINGLE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTION which actually showed those in the drawing ... but did not mention them in the written directions.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Brandon, write back and thank them and ask about their other shingles, and say 'Oh, by the way, can you send me a revised installation instruction when that is incorporated into the text and identified? Thank you.

I just flipped off an e- mail to them. We'll see what they say this time. You all should know better than to expect a perfect answer from a technical rep. I so often receive wishy washy answers, that I end up frustrated.


I have not changed my position at all, Brandon provided an SHINGLE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTION which actually showed those in the drawing ... but did not mention them in the written directions.

How much ya wanna bet that they say their drawings are part of their installation instructions, and leave it at that?

[A.D. Miller]

So far ... no one has been defeated. :D

Once the information is in, no one will still be defeated, and ALL of us will learn something.

What is not yet known. :D

JP: That is what I've been talking about since the beginning of this thread. Seems that you are the only one with enough sense to get it. Well, and Mike Moser is not far off course himself - no pun intended.:D

[Brandon Whitmore]

OK Jerry,

I asked exactly what you wanted me to, and here's the reply...:confused:



We don’t address it in the other shingles because it is not necessary. We know it’s done all the time, but it’s up to the contractor’s preference whether or not starters are used on the rakes.


At least Certainteed replied to the original question, unlike others.

[Jerry Peck]

Brandon,

At least you have received two replies in the same time I have received none from GAF (probably because they are looking for someone to answer my questions :) ).

If I do not get a reply tomorrow I will send the e-mail again and remind them I had already asked the question and not received a reply (I have to do that occasionally with manufacturers, then they reply).

[A.D. Miller]

You would think with all of the loud-mouth Republican hacks that have taken a swing at this thread at least ONE would have come up with some written proof of their claims. Go figure!:D

[Raymond Wand]

Any we thought a loud mouth know it all from Texas acting as a annoying cheerleader would have come up with compelling documentation to back up his annoying superior opinionated attitude! :p :D

[A.D. Miller]

Any we thought a loud mouth know it all from Texas acting as a annoying cheerleader would have come up with compelling documentation to back up his annoying superior opinionated attitude! :p :D

RW: If you mean by "opinionated" that I have an opinion and can support it in an argument with another person, then yes, I am just that. Superior? Perhaps. That all depends on your definition of the term and the context in which it is employed. "Cheerleader"? I think not.

I am still waiting for a rational reply to my original inquiry, which I very much doubt is forthcoming.:D

[Raymond Wand]

Don't hold your breath, its very clear you and JP are not going to accept anything and even if you do you will find fault with it. All I have heard from you is that everyone is wrong but you and Jerry, but even Jerry is more compelling than you, even though he has not provided much of anything either.;)

[Mike Schulz]

A>D is a great example of the term Leftie Lucie (AD) righty is right (us) :)

[A.D. Miller]

A>D is a great example of the term Leftie Lucie (AD) righty is right (us) :)

MS: That, of course, is an ignorant man's reference to the term "lefty loosey" which is the opposite of "righty tighty". This is a comibination of simplistic terms for morons who cannot remember how to operate complicated equipment like water faucets, nuts and bolts, or English grammar.:D

[A.D. Miller]

Don't hold your breath, its very clear you and JP are not going to accept anything and even if you do you will find fault with it. All I have heard from you is that everyone is wrong but you and Jerry, but even Jerry is more compelling than you, even though he has not provided much of anything either.;)

RW: I cannot and will not speak for JP - he is quite capable of defending himself. But as for me, what I accept or do not accept is immaterial. It is what I learn from the supposedly forthcoming information that interest me.

[Mike Schulz]

That, of course, is an ignorant man's reference to the term "lefty loosey" which is the opposite of "righty tighty".

I am glad you pointed out "which is the opposite of" I would of never figured that out because i'm ignant and lack edumacation. ;)

You have beaten this horse to death let her go man! move on and enjoy life as only you know it.........:D

[A.D. Miller]

move on and enjoy life as only you know it.........:D

MS: Unfortunately, this is more fun that what is currently going on in my life.:(

[Jim Luttrall]

This brings to mind an old saying

Arguing with an __xyz__ , is like wrestling with a pig; you both get muddy but after a while, you realize the pig likes it.


This may have to be added to Aaron's and Jerry's signature lines!

[A.D. Miller]

This brings to mind an old saying


This may have to be added to Aaron's and Jerry's signature lines!

JL: That saying, the "xyz" being supplanted by "inspector" proudly adorns my office wall.:D

[Jerry Peck]

JL: That saying, the "xyz" being supplanted by "inspector" proudly adorns my office wall.:D

I used to have that:

Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling a pig in the mud: you never accomplish anything and after awhile you realize the pig likes it.

I got that from Jeff Hooper, who had it in his office.

(Yes, I forgot the exact wording of how it went, but the above is close enough. :D )

[Raymond Wand]

Jerry

Did you get an answer yet? Can you share with us how you phrased the question? :D

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry

Did you get an answer yet? Can you share with us how you phrased the question? :D

Have not received anything back as yet, so I re-sent the e-mail with an update on top.

I sent this question in on Monday and have not received any contact for more information or any information regarding what I was inquiring about.

Would you have someone follow up on it?

Thank you,

Jerry Peck

Jerry Peck
Codeman
codeman@AskCodeMan.com (codeman@AskCodeMan.com)
www.AskCodeMan.com (http://www.AskCodeMan.com)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

From: Jerry Peck [mailto:codeman@AskCodeMan.com]
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 12:00 PM
To: 'TechnicalQuestions@gaf.com'
Subject: WeatherBlocker Premium Eave/Rake Starter Strip

I am having a discussion with others regarding the installation instructions for your composition shingles, an example would be the Application Instructions for the Royal Sovereign Shingles from your web site, and the installation and use your rake starter strips as the shingle installation instructions do not show an allowed option for the installation and use of those rake starter strips.

The codes require that the composition shingles be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions, which is the way they were tested, listed, and labeled, and doing so does not allow for (there is no optional provision for) the installation of the rake starter strips.

Until the shingle installation instructions include and allow for an option to use the rake starter strips, the use of the rake starter strips makes the shingles not installed in accordance with their installation instructions … regardless of any installation instructions which may accompany the rake starter strips.

Do you have an updated installation instructions for the composition shingles which shows/allows for the option to install the rake starter strips which you can provide to me? Those updated installation instructions showing the rake starter strips would answer the questions regarding the installation of the composition shingles being in conformance to their installation instructions.

I am aware that installation instructions are printed on every package of shingles and that changes in installation instructions take time to make it from engineering and technical support to the printing of the bundle wrappers, thus any updated and current installation instructions showing the rake starter strip option should be sufficient to show that the installation of the rake starter strips are in fact allowed by the shingle installation instructions. Also, those updated installation instruction should be the ones shown on your web site as the current manufacturer’s installation instructions as your web site is the place for the latest manufacturer’s information.

Have the shingles been tested, listed and labeled with the use of the rake starter strips?

Any and all information you can provide on this would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Jerry Peck

Jerry Peck
Codeman
codeman@AskCodeMan.com (codeman@AskCodeMan.com)
www.AskCodeMan.com (http://www.AskCodeMan.com)

[Raymond Wand]

Thanks Jerry!

[Mike Schulz]

AD Manny will put you in your place :D Louisiana Gun (http://la-gun.com/email/manning/)

[Rick Cantrell]

Jerry
The way you say it, they might think there going to get a certified letter from Dewey Cheatum & Howe.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry
The way you say it, they might think there going to get a certified letter from Dewey Cheatum & Howe.

Or that if they produce the requested information they will not receive that letter. :D

[A.D. Miller]

AD Manny will put you in your place :D Louisiana Gun (http://la-gun.com/email/manning/)

MS: "Where, whe, whe, whe, uh, uh red-blooded, god-fearing, Jesus-loving, Americans are gonna stand up and say we're not gonna take it no' mo'. We just not gonna take it."

So then, this is your spokesman? GTF outta here!:D

[Raymond Wand]

Well.... we certainly got this questioned settled. Looks like its not much of an issue at all.

[A.D. Miller]

Well.... we certainly got this questioned settled. Looks like its not much of an issue at all.

RW: Nothing is settled here. I am still patiently awaiting an answer to my original query.

[Raymond Wand]

Ya so much for your original question, what was it anyway?

[A.D. Miller]

Ya so much for your original question, what was it anyway?

RW: Think: attention span.;)

[Raymond Wand]

Can't find your original question, what was the meat of it? :rolleyes:

[A.D. Miller]

Can't find your original question, what was the meat of it? :rolleyes:

RW: It was a vegan interrogatory.:D

[Raymond Wand]

Oh I love it when you use big words.... very impressive, but still waiting for definitive proof.