definition of Kitchen for two 20-amp circuit requirement

[Dave Hahn]

Inspected a home with a main level kitchen and a basement "kitchen."
The basement kitchen had a sink, microwave, dishwasher, and fridge, but no stove/range/cook top.

There was only one 20-amp circuit serving counter top receptacle outlets.

I believe the defiinition of "kitchen" (at least as relates to electrical requirements) has something to do with having a "cooking appliance."

Does having a microwave but no stove (etc.) meet the provisions to qualify an area as a "kitchen" which then would require the presence of two 20-amp circuits ?

NEC references are helpful.

Dave

[Jerry Peck]

From the 2008 NEC: Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.

The key parts are "permanent" and "and cooking" - which can be a microwave oven, a single burner hot plate, etc., as long as it is "permanent".

Your "kitchen" is indeed a "kitchen" by definition.

[Dave Hahn]

Thanks Jerry.
House was constructed in 2007, prior to implementation of 2008 NEC.
I don't see any definition for "kitchen" in my 2002 NEC copy.
Was the defiinition added in the 2005 NEC, or the 2008 edition ??

Dave

[A.D. Miller]

Thanks Jerry.
House was constructed in 2007, prior to implementation of 2008 NEC.
I don't see any definition for "kitchen" in my 2002 NEC copy.
Was the defiinition added in the 2005 NEC, or the 2008 edition ??

Dave

DH: The definition of "kitchen" was first published in the 2008 NEC.

[Jerry Peck]

DH: The definition of "kitchen" was first published in the 2008 NEC.


The "intent" was always there, the "definition" only came in 2008.

[A.D. Miller]

The "intent" was always there, the "definition" only came in 2008.

JP: Try proving intent.:D

[Jerry Peck]

JP: Try proving intent.:D

Easy enough ... you are on ... :D

The proof of that having been the "intent" is that it is now spelled out in the definition ... :p ... so AHJ cannot change or ignore the "intent" of the code as that "intent" is not "defined". :)

[A.D. Miller]

The proof of that having been the "intent" is that it is now spelled out in the definition

JP: Low blow. Foul!



so AHJ cannot change or ignore the "intent" of the code as that "intent" is not "defined"


JP: Put that pipe down . . .:D

[ken horak]

Actually the definition of a kitchen is in the 2005 NEC. Look at 210.8 (B)(2).

It was just relocated in the 2008 NEC because the term is used in more then one code article.

I would not consider a microwave sitting on a counter top or a hot plate as permanent either. These can be moved from location to location easily

A microwave that is fastened in place I would consider permanent. A cook top or wall oven is permanent. A range is permanent as it is secured to the wall by the tip over prevention strap required by the installation instructions. ( besides you can't really take the range into the other room to use)

[Ted Menelly]

From the 2008 NEC: Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.

The key parts are "permanent" and "and cooking" - which can be a microwave oven, a single burner hot plate, etc., as long as it is "permanent".

Your "kitchen" is indeed a "kitchen" by definition.


why would a microwave be considered permanent. Unless it has a built cabinet that it fits into and a flange mounting aound the perimeter. Just a shelf or sitting on a counter does not make it permanent. As far as cooking with it , sure. As far as permanent, maybe.

I do not test micros sitting on a counter or just sitting up on a shelf.

Just looking for the opinion.

[Jerry Peck]

why would a microwave be considered permanent. Unless ...

Just looking for the opinion.

Ted,

You have answered your own question.

*IF* the microwave oven is setting on the countertop and plugged in then it is not considered permanent.

However, *IF* the microwave oven is "installed" in some manner, such as over the range types installed under the cabinets, or one mounted on a shelf and "built-in" so to speak, then the microwave oven is considered "permanent".

Also, if the plans show the space labeled as a "kitchen" then it must be wired as a "kitchen" as that is the intent of the space.

[A.D. Miller]

Actually the definition of a kitchen is in the 2005 NEC. Look at 210.8 (B)(2).

It was just relocated in the 2008 NEC because the term is used in more then one code article.

I would not consider a microwave sitting on a counter top or a hot plate as permanent either. These can be moved from location to location easily

A microwave that is fastened in place I would consider permanent. A cook top or wall oven is permanent. A range is permanent as it is secured to the wall by the tip over prevention strap required by the installation instructions. ( besides you can't really take the range into the other room to use)

KH: Yep. Right you are. I don't have the '05 in digital form for a search and was too damned lazy to look further than I did.:mad:

[Jerry Peck]

KH: Yep. Right you are. I don't have the '05 in digital form for a search and was too damned lazy to look further than I did.:mad:

Aaron,

I HAVE the 2005 NEC on CD and was not only to lazy to look but HAD FORGOTTEN that it was first put into the 2005, then relocated to the definitions in 2008. :o

Now is also a good time to note that in 2005 the definition applied ONLY TO "(B) Other Than Dwelling Units" as in "Commercial and institutional kitchens - for the purposes of this section, a kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking."

Which means that in 2005 the definition was not applicable to Dwelling Units.

Which means that if first came into the NEC *for dwelling units* in 2008.

Which means you were actually correct regarding the discussion and question. :cool:

[ken horak]

Regardless of where it does or does not apply is moot.

The reply was for the comment about the definition of a kitchen not being in the 2005 NEC and being First published in the 2008.

[A.D. Miller]

Regardless of where it does or does not apply is mute.


KH: I think you mean "moot".

[Jerry Peck]

Regardless of where it does or does not apply is mute.

The reply was for the comment about the definition of a kitchen not being in the 2005 NEC and being First published in the 2008.

And the NEC in 2005 was not defining "kitchens" it was defining "Commercial and institutional kitchens".

As in:
Commercial and institutional kitchens - for the purposes of this section, a kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.

I understand what you are stating, I am simply pointing out what the NEC did "at first", and you are pointing out that "at first". I am simply fine tuning your fine tuning.

[ken horak]

KH: I think you mean "moot".

true

thank you

and corrected