splicing copper wire to aluminum

[Robert Mattison]

Well here go nothing.

How many of you have inspected homes that were wired with aluminum romex cable.

And does anyone now know, what product out there, is the right product to use when splicing aluminum wire or splicing aluminum wire to copper wire.

THANKS :cool:


"Keep trying, one of these days you'll get it right"
a running, inside joke, here at the office

[A.D. Miller]

We here go nothing.

How many of you have inspected house that were wired with aluminum romex cable.

And does anyone now know, what product out there, is the right product to use when splicing aluminum wire or splicing aluminum wire to copper wire.

THANKS :cool:


"Keep trying, one of these days you'll get it right"
a running, inside joke, here at the office

MS: That depends on which expert you ask. All of the following have differnet ideas on the subject:

CPSC
NEC
AHJs
Electricians
Homeowners - only approve of the cheapest method

[Jim Luttrall]

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf
COPALUM is the ONLY method I recommend and even then, that is secondary to total rewiring with copper.

[A.D. Miller]

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf
COPALUM is the ONLY method I recommend and even then, that is secondary to total rewiring with copper.

JL: I NEVER recommend a repair method. I strongly suggest that they consult with an electrical engineer for those remedial options. Unlike you, I am not an expert.

[Jerry Peck]

Jim,

I never commend those connectors for the following reason: One of the main problems with the old aluminum wiring was its inability to withstand bending and re-bending, when ANY repair is made, even a replacement of the receptacles, much less installing those connectors, the old aluminum is not only re-bent, but is re-bent twice MINIMUM - once when pulling the receptacle out from the wall, again when installing those connectors, and yet again when pushing the receptacle and all that NEW ADDITIONAL wiring back into the box ... (yes, that makes THREE "re-bendings", but I did say "MINIMUM" when I said "re-bent twice", just in case one of the described re-bendings did not need to be made).

[A.D. Miller]

Jim,

I never commend those connectors for the following reason: One of the main problems with the old aluminum wiring was its inability to withstand bending and re-bending, when ANY repair is made, even a replacement of the receptacles, much less installing those connectors, the old aluminum is not only re-bent, but is re-bent twice MINIMUM - once when pulling the receptacle out from the wall, again when installing those connectors, and yet again when pushing the receptacle and all that NEW ADDITIONAL wiring back into the box ... (yes, that makes THREE "re-bendings", but I did say "MINIMUM" when I said "re-bent twice", just in case one of the described re-bendings did not need to be made).

JP: That is especially true of first generation (pre-1972) residential aluminum NM cables with no alloys added for strength. Its like metal putty shaped like a string.

[Jim Luttrall]

I guess I phrased that incorrectly. More correctly (but I imagine JP and AM will find fault with anything said) stated would be that I do not design any repairs at all, but the CPSC recommends only the COPALUM method. And I provide the link to the CPSC brochure so they can make up their own mind. Me, I like shiny new copper.

[Speedy Petey]

I strongly suggest that they consult with an electrical engineer for those remedial options.
This is a serious question.
I am curious. Why would you recommend an electrical engineer??? Most EE's know less about construction electric than a supply house counter guy.

[John Kogel]

right[/B] product to use when splicing aluminum wire or splicing aluminum wire to copper wire.
I do not recommend splicing aluminum to copper, period.
But at some point, I came up with this possibility: If the receptacle, rated for AL, has two hot and two neutral screws, you could leave the Al under one and connect Cu to the other.
But I would not condone this practice, as any splicing of additional branch circuits will increase the load on the cheesy Al. It should all be replaced.

[A.D. Miller]

This is a serious question.
I am curious. Why would you recommend an electrical engineer??? Most EE's know less about construction electric than a supply house counter guy.

SP: Simply because:

1. An electrical engineer trumps an electrician in that he has the ability to certify an installation with his cute little stamp.

2. Once certified by the engineer with that oh-so-cute stamp, his ass is on the line - not mine - and not the electrician's.

I have no reason to doubt your statement that EEs bring less to the table than the legs it rests upon. The same is true with most structural engineers. Our wonderful colleges, for the most part and with very few exceptions, do not teach residential construction techniques in engineering schools. In fact, they teach almost no hands-on construction at all. After speaking with more that a few hundred engineers in my time, I am not at all certain what they teach there.

But, that said, they do all receive a cute little stamp once they graduate. Glorified notaries. Nevertheless, once the guns are all loaded and aimed, they will be aimed at the stamp and not at me or the sparky.:cool:

This message has my stamp approval:

[Bill Kriegh]

UL, the people everybody goes nuts over for "listing" and installation violations thereof, says that a number of different methods are OK (listed)for splicing aluminum to copper. They also have given their blessing to several products marketed especially for the purpose. Obviously, if we are going to use their criteria for installation and use to pass or fail an installation then their blessing on something has to make it just fine, right? Keep in mind that these folks keep right on listing things like backstab device connections........

The CPSC has weighed in with what they think. To my knowledge they have absolutely no ability to do the required testing to make any determinations in the matter. But, one would think that if they have issued their own recommendations in an area of such importance they would have examined ALL the issues involved in their pet method - somehow. Keep in mind these are the same folks who haven't found enough issues with Federal Pacific (which they supposedly DID investigate, somehow)or Zinsco breakers and panels to issue any kind of statement with regard to the safety of continued use. They do a fine job of recalling products made for young children after the fact, it would appear.

The NEC says that whatever is used to make the splice must be "identified" for the purpose, and says this in several places. Evidently, the importance of a good splice doesn't require the use of listed materials, unless the connection is to be buried. That there would be 110.14 for those who need to see it "in the book"

I've pigtailed thousands of aluminum wires and have yet to be made aware of any of those splices failing. I have to suspect the methods and care used in the pigtailing process has a lot to do with problems or lack thereof because I've seen disasterous results from pigtailing. Also, listed or not, I wouldn't use CU/ALR devices on a bet.

All of course JMHO

[Jim Luttrall]

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.pdf
Here is a link to one paper from an engineer, Phd. on the subject.

[A.D. Miller]

So then, it all comes back to what I originally stated: it all depends upon which expert you listen to.:D

[Jerry Peck]

The NEC says that whatever is used to make the splice must be "identified" for the purpose, and says this in several places. Evidently, the importance of a good splice doesn't require the use of listed materials, unless the connection is to be buried. That there would be 110.14 for those who need to see it "in the book"

Bill,

I'm not following you in the above, especially this part: "Evidently, the importance of a good splice doesn't require the use of listed materials, unless the connection is to be buried." and then "That there would be 110.14".

- 110.14 Electrical Connections.
- - Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment.
- - - FPN: Many terminations and equipment are marked with a tightening torque.
- - (B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.
- - - Wire connectors or splicing means installed on conductors for direct burial shall be listed for such use.

That does not quite say what you said.

[Jim Port]

- 110.14 Electrical Connections.
- - Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment.
- - - FPN: Many terminations and equipment are marked with a tightening torque.
- - (B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.
- - - Wire connectors or splicing means installed on conductors for direct burial shall be listed for such use.

That does not quite say what you said.

Maybe it does say what BK said.

[Jerry Peck]

Jim,


Maybe it does say what BK said.

Bill said (see underlining, bold and red text)

The NEC says that whatever is used to make the splice must be "identified" for the purpose, and says this in several places. Evidently, the importance of a good splice doesn't require the use of listed materials, unless the connection is to be buried. That there would be 110.14 for those who need to see it "in the book"

That code section does not state that.

[Jim Port]

After reading that section again I only see the word listed in the same sentence with direct burial. All the other references just say identified.

[Bill Kriegh]

No, it says the connector has to be identified for the use. Which means I can manufacture and sell a connector I make in my garage and identify it for the various things I think it is OK to splice with them. No requirement for UL listing unless the connection is to be buried.

This same annomaly exists for wire staples and conduit straps, neither of which, among other things, is required to be listed - although some are. I could actually market, say, 8 inch long chunks of NM-B and provide a nail with it and "identify" it as a cable hanger and it would be perfectly legal. And, I've seen houses done that way.

I believe the language, by inference, doesn't require the splicing connector to be listed. I believe this because there is a distinct difference between "identified" and "listed", and the NEC uses both in the same reference to splices when addressing where the splice is to reside.

[Jerry Peck]

- Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular Code requirement.
- - FPN: Some examples of ways to determine suitability of equipment for a specific purpose, environment, or application include investigations by a qualified testing laboratory (listing and labeling), an inspection agency, or other organizations concerned with product evaluation.

- Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose.
- - FPN: The means for identifying listed equipment may vary for each organization concerned with product evaluation, some of which do not recognize equipment as listed unless it is also labeled. Use of the system employed by the listing organization allows the authority having jurisdiction to identify a listed product.

The difference is not as great as you are implying.

Making something in your garage and put an identifying mark on it does constitute that whatever as being "identified" in accordance with the code.

[Jim Port]

FPNs while helpful in understanding the codes are not enforceable.

Perhaps the maker did their own testing and found the material suitable for its use. While this may or not be the same or as extensive as a listed part it is not required to meet that standard either.

[Jerry Peck]

FPNs while helpful in understanding the codes are not enforceable.

The FPN itself is not enforceable, however, the references it refers to are, as in the two definitions I posted.

The usual and typical purpose of the FPN is to make the reader aware what else applies, usually within the NEC itself, but not always.

Many people try the cope out of "FPN are not enforceable." without thinking about what the FPN is referring to and that usually IS enforceable.


Perhaps the maker did their own testing and found the material suitable for its use. While this may or not be the same or as extensive as a listed part it is not required to meet that standard either.

Which does not meet the definition of identified. You are repeating what Bill stated, and neither meet the definition of identified.

[Jim Port]

So in house design and testing cannot determine the suitability of a product? Isn't this a basic step in bringing ay product to the market?

What would you propose?

[Jerry Peck]

All the clues you should need, and all the directly worded guidance you should need, are all right there in that FPN.

If you do not understand plainly written English I doubt there is anything I can do to help you out.

[Edward Olsoe]

You will need to use COPALUM connectors, made by Amphenol. Take a look at the attached .pdf file for more info. Unfortunately, AMP (and their distributors) will only sell them to certain licensed electrical contractors, who have been specially trained and certified in their installation. If you decide you want to hire one of these "approved" electricians to install these in your home, you will probably have to contact an AMP distributor to find one in your area.

[John Kogel]

MS: That depends on which expert you ask. All of the following have differnet ideas on the subject:

CPSC
NEC
AHJs
Electricians
Homeowners - only approve of the cheapest methodDoes evereyone disapprove of these connectors? They appear to be sealed nicely, 1975 condo.

[Edward Olsoe]

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf
COPALUM is the ONLY method I recommend and even then, that is secondary to total rewiring with copper.

I agree 100% with Jim's statment.

[Robert Mattison]

If you create a pigtail, splicing aluminum wire to copper, by using a common wire nut, the type that is used every day, it look like, there would be no problem with the duplex receptacle, if it was never used. No load, no problem.

Now, take that same duplex receptacle, place it in the kitchen, and plug the electric toaster into it, now you have have a heavy current flow thru
the the aluminum wire, thru the copper wire that is the pigtail splice. Over time, how much time, I don't I don't pretend to know, but what is going to happen to this aluminum to copper splice?

Is it PFM, that some of the splices might fail, why others don't?


I would like to see more facts, that show a direct link, were a good electrician have made such splices, and that a fire started, and that
fire was directly cause by a good electrician splicing aluminum wire to
copper wire with just plain of fashion wire, purchase at your local hardware or Big Box store. :cool:

[A.D. Miller]

Does evereyone disapprove of these connectors? They appear to be sealed nicely, 1975 condo.

JK: Everyone in that list disapproves, save the homeowner.

[Terry Heller]

I recommended copalums for years but they were rarely installed. The company will not sell the crimper, only lease it. Most electricians weren't interested. I only know of one electrician in Maryland who does it. I personally prefer Alumiconns but again, try to find an electrican who will use them. They only know wire nuts and they all want to use the amp 65 purple wire nuts. I now simply say I recommend whole house retermination with a code appproved device designed for that purpose. I also recommend a permit and inspection by the local AHJ.

[Robert Mattison]

in Vermont, the state AHJ, doesn't have to pay for fire damage. :D

[Terry Heller]

in Vermont, the state AHJ, dosn't have to pay for fire damage. :D

No, they don't here either. But for that matter neither does a home inspector who recommends correcting a well known defective wiring material by a licensed electrician with a code approved device with a permit under the purview of the AHJ. That's inspection folklore. :cool:

[A.D. Miller]

No, they don't here either. But for that matter neither does a home inspector who recommends correcting a well known defective wiring material by a licensed electrician with a code approved device with a permit under the purview of the AHJ. That's inspection folklore. :cool:

TH: You obviously have a completely different legal system in Maryland than we have in the rest of the country. Out here in the real world anybody can be successfully sued by anyone for anything.

[Terry Heller]

No, not at all. I've been sued twice in alittle over 20 years. I won both times. BS is BS. You are right however. Anyone can sue anyone else for anything. The trick is to not be on shaky ground with anything you say or report. Having the knowledge to begin with is a must and a GOOD report is an absolute must.
If you know of a home inspector who was successfully sued for recommending a repair of aluminum wiring with a code appproved device by a licensed electrician working with a permit and inspection by the AHJ, lets hear it. :confused: :rolleyes:

[John Steinke]

That CPSC paper has been floating around for ages .... does anyone actually thing that nothing has changed since then?

"Written by an engineer with a Phd in the subject." Sure he does. I suppose the testing labs and code panels lack qualified, even expert, people? Don't you begin to suspect thet, just maybe, the copalum connector maker may have had a hand in the testing?

(For those who doubt the efforts a manufacturer might go through to manipulate codes to their benefit, check out the US Supreme Court case "Hydrolevel vs. ASME." If I follow the company family trees correctly, copalum connectors are associated with the same group of companies that were involved in that case).

I only suggest that, simply because the various testing labs have not been able to reproduce the results. Even if you were to try to use the copalum connectors, good luck getting them! The manufacturer has made it essentially impossible to obtain the materials, or the certifications they demand.

Jerry has a very good point as to the fragility of these older aluminum wires. There's something to be said to the thought "if it hasn't burned down by now, the connections must be good - so don't mess with them!" You want to guarantee the aluminum wires break, just try using a crimp connector!

Finally, if this work involves a mobile home, I can guarantee that there is not enough room in the boxes for any kind of splices.

[Jerry Peck]

If you create a pigtail, splicing aluminum wire to copper, by using a common wire nut, the type that is used every day, it look like, there would be no problem with the duplex receptacle, if it was never used. No load, no problem.


I hope that was said in jest, in which case you are missing the :rolleyes: at the end of it.

:eek:

[Robert Mattison]

Jerry, Jerry..


Yes, it was said in jest. :o

But. is it okay to splice aluminum to aluminum using plain wire nuts, with a
pig tail that is alumiinum to a duplex receptacle, like the one picture
in John K. photo? :confused:

Annd would you say that at one time, a wire nut did not have to be "identified" for use with the material of the conductor.

And have have we gone from "suitable" to "identified".

So how do you define a "suitable" wire nut for splicing aluminum to aluminum. If you don't have ever U.L. white book publish. :D

It is my understang that terminals on 15- and 20-A receptacles not marked "CO/ALR" are for use with copper and copper-clad aluminum conductors only. Terminials mark "CO/ALR" are for use with aliminum, copper, and copperclad aluminum conductors.

Please understand, I only want to know, what is used to make a safe aluminum to aluminum connection and aluminum to copper connection.

Without removing all the aluminum NM cable from a home or house trailer. (humor)

Thank you for understanding.

[Jerry Peck]

is it okay to splice aluminum to aluminum using plain wire nuts, with a pig tail that is alumiinum to a duplex receptacle, like the one picture in John K. photo? :confused:

Depends on the wire nut.


Annd would you say that at one time, a wire nut did not have to be "identified" for use with the material of the conductor.

Nope. The wire nuts needed to be identified for use with aluminum.


And have have we gone from "suitable" to "identified".


It is only "suitable" if so "identified". :)

[Robert Mattison]

Jerry, a BIG THANKS :)

[Bill Kriegh]

Important to note here that at one time several currently manufactured wire nuts were listed for aluminum, but no longer are.

So, the wire nuts in the picture could have been listed when installed, but aren't any more.

Which means they were possibly legal when installed, and if they were they may be removed and reinstalled if necessary, but can't be replaced with newer ones of the same type - unless you haave a box of new old stock that says they're listed for aluminum.

[Robert Mattison]

so where we now? :confused:

Should Joe homeowner have the fire dept. on speed dial. :D


John K. just how often do you think the duplex receptacle was used?

John K. and if the duplex receptacle were used, do you think it ever had a load place
on it over 5 amps. Like a typical table lamp.

[Jerry Peck]

but can't be replaced with newer ones of the same type - unless you haave a box of new old stock that says they're listed for aluminum.


Like I have in my garage. :D

[Jerry Peck]

John K. just how often do you thing the duplex receptacle was used?

John K. and if the duplex receptacle do you think it ever had a load place
on it over 5 amps. Like a typical table lamp.

I'm trying to figure out why you asked those questions and why it even matters, the simple fact is those receptacles ARE THERE, and, because those receptacles are there, those receptacles ARE READY TO BE USED, and to have a 15 amp load plugged into them.

[DENNIS OMARA]

Gentlemen;
I am an inspector from Maryland (Annapolis) and have done much research on the subject of making Aluminum wiring safer, without re-wiring an entire house. As discussed earlier, the Cop/Alum connectors seem to be the primary choice of the CPSC. Second place appears to be the Alumiconn, or Scotch-Lok types. The purple "Ideal" wire nut connectors were considered fine by Elecrical code, but if you read the NY-Inspect.com website, you find problems with them as well. In this thread, I have not seen mention of filling any type of wire nut connections with anti-corrosive material.
Interestingly, when I would call local Electricians to ask how they worked on these, they seemed hardly to care. Simply said they would pig-tail them with wire nuts. In 5 years I have yet to find a melted receptacle or otherwise dangerous situation, directly related to Aluminum branch circuits. Just a matter of time I suppose. What Jerry, and others, said about bending Aluminum wires to "correct" these connections, and weakening them, makes a lot of sense.
For my fellow Maryland H.I's:
I found three MD contractors who are certified to do the Cop/Alum crimp connectors:
1.) Hawkins Electric in Beltsville (301)-927-0090;
2.) American Power Zone in Kensington (301)-949-7171; and:
3.) Electrical Wiring Ltd. (301)-564-1040.

[Cobra Cook]

You will be hard pressed to find an insurance company to insure a house with known single strand aluminum wiring. It has burnt down too many houses. Those connections will loosen up and become hot when current flows through them.At the time when houses were being wired with the junk there were no connectors, switches or recepticles designed for single strand aluminum wire. Tell the owner that the house needs to be rewired or keep the marsh mellows handy. Their have been oodles of law suits and people dyeing and nobody wins when that happens. Also not to bring up the subject,I was watching how its made on tv today and they were making tiffiney lamps, all high end hand made lamps. quess what they did after they tightened the wire nuts? put electrical tape on them. :D

[Robert Mattison]

The root of all evil: electrical tape vs. aluminum wire. (humor)

I'll insure any house wire with aluminum wire, if your check has enough
zero's after the one. (more humor)

[Jerry Peck]

I was watching how its made on tv today and they were making tiffiney lamps, all high end hand made lamps. quess what they did after they tightened the wire nuts? put electrical tape on them. :D

And last night I watched a show on TV with my wife where they were converting an "illegal basement apartment" into a new "legal basement apartment" and one of the biggy "illegal" things were the original basement windows did not allow the required natural light and ventilation in, so they replaced the windows with ones which would slide and allow for the required ventilation ... only they forgot that EVERY BASEMENT, and EVERY BEDROOM, including those in the 2 bedroom basement apartment REQUIRE EERO, which, as everyone doing construction should know, requires at least a minimum open height of 24", a minimum open width of 20", a minimum opening size of 5.0 sf (as those were accessible from grade, so they did not need to be 5.7 sf) and a sill height of not greater than 44" above the floor ... and those windows were (being VERY GENEROUS here) no more than 18" high, and the sill of those windows were about 6 FEET above the floor ... and those idiot contractors kept repeating "these windows make this legal now" - they should have been taken out in front of the camera and summarily SHOT with a 16 pound cannon ball from 44" (so they would remember the maximum height for those windows was 44" above the floor) and, if they survived, a second shot from 24" so they would remember the 24" minimum opening height. Those fools where showing all their TV audience HOW TO DO IT WRONG and professing that it was not okay and legal.

[Cobra Cook]

Which show was that Jerry?

[Jerry Peck]

I don't know, something my wife was watching on HGTV ... and we all know about their shows. :eek:

[Rick Cantrell]

I think I saw part of that same show.
Income property. HGTV

[Mike Schulz]

Hey Dennis I was in Annapolis over the summer. We rode our Bikes to visit where I grew up in Linthicum. Took in the sites at Ellicot City and Inner Harbor rode down to Annapolis and walked around what my friends called Ego Alley. Small inlet where the boats show off and stores along the front.

[ken horak]

Hey Dennis I was in Annapolis over the summer. We rode our Bikes to visit where I grew up in Linthicum. Took in the sites at Ellicot City and Inner Harbor rode down to Annapolis and walked around what my friends called Ego Alley. Small inlet where the boats show off and stores along the front.

Did you stop and have a crab cake at G&M's Restaurant while in Linthicum ?

[Matt Fellman]

As a HI in pursuit of more knowledge and understanding of materials in homes - read up on everything you can, check out threads like this and remember all you can.

As a HI on an inspection - Identify it, explain the potential hazards, make a recommendation for a course of action and move on.

Designing a fix or jumping on a bandwagon behind one in particular is suicide.... even if you're right it doesn't matter. As long as there are opposing opinions you can be dragged down just by picking a side. Even if you and 97 other experts agree, someone sueing you can get the other 2 and cost you bookoo bucks defending yourself.

Threads like this are very educational but rarely make the pages of my reports.

[Mike Schulz]

Ken how do you know about that!!!! But yes we did, and also that other resturant in sight of it....can't remember name. I grew up right off Nursery rd.

[Aaron Bennett]

SP: Simply because:

1. An electrical engineer trumps an electrician in that he has the ability to certify an installation with his cute little stamp.

2. Once certified by the engineer with that oh-so-cute stamp, his ass is on the line - not mine - and not the electrician's.

I have no reason to doubt your statement that EEs bring less to the table than the legs it rests upon. The same is true with most structural engineers. Our wonderful colleges, for the most part and with very few exceptions, do not teach residential construction techniques in engineering schools. In fact, they teach almost no hands-on construction at all. After speaking with more that a few hundred engineers in my time, I am not at all certain what they teach there.

But, that said, they do all receive a cute little stamp once they graduate. Glorified notaries. Nevertheless, once the guns are all loaded and aimed, they will be aimed at the stamp and not at me or the sparky.:cool:

This message has my stamp approval:

We don't receive a stamp once we graduate. We have to take an 8 hour FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) exam - four hours which covers all aspects of engineering and another 4 hours in our specialty. Then we have to work under a PE (Professional Engineer) for 4 years and then take another 8 hour exam to get the stamp.

I don't disagree that there are structural engineers out there with no hands on experience, but for those of us that do - don't lump us into that category. BTW, I usually enjoy the banter and info you guys have!

[Joe Kurpe]

The product you need is called Naolox and is a coating to prevent oxidization.You coat both wires before joining them to prevent oxidization. If you can I would find another way to connect the aluminium wiring to the copper wiring as even with Naolox over time the wires will still oxidize and corrode if not installed correctly.

[Jim Port]

Mike, I think you might mean Olive Grove restaurant. Or Snyders Willow Grove is just downhill to the left near the Beltway.

Now I feel the need to stop at G&M for a baklava.

[ken horak]

Yep- Snyders just down the road a bit.
Both G& M 's and Snyders have been there for years. Just like Whitey's grocery store across from G&M's.
Of course you can't talk of Linthicum with out remembering the old Carlings ( Black Label) brewery

[Mike Schulz]

Are you from there..........I lived across the bridge on Carl St. How do you know so much, Do I know you? You should have your profile corrected. :D

[ken horak]

not from there, been there quite a few times.
Wife,s grandparents lived on third ave, her parents grew up in that area and Arbutus.

[Jim Port]

I thought the brewery was in Halethorpe.

[Mike Schulz]

Brewery was there 30 years ago. I dated the Snyder Daughter :) , Olive Grove restaurant is the one a block away to the left of GM, Snyder's a block to the right. Olive is the one I was talking about.

I need a crab cake. Think I will go look at GM web site and drool at the pictures :D