Primary Condensate Problem

[John Ensign]

I'm currently draining out of my secondary condensate line into the pan and the out the sofit of my second story. I've checked the primary line. It perfectly clear from the vent to the exterior. When the unit is running there is a steadt stream of air that can be felt if I take the cap off the vent. What else could be preventing the primary from draining. How can I tell if the installer hooked up the lines backward? The primary is on one side of the unit and the secondary is on the opposite.

Thanks!

[Jerry Peck]

That looks to be all wrong.

Are you sure one is the primary and one is the secondary and both are not primary or secondary?

[John Ensign]

I'm pretty sure one is primary and one is secondary. There are 2 plugs on each side of the unit and neither line is attached to the exact opposite. Does that make sense? How can I tell which line is the primary?

[Jim Luttrall]

If you don't have the manufacturer's installation manual, look for a data plate on that piece of equipment. Even a brand name of that particular coil box (not the air handler or outside unit) would be helpful. Do a search using the manufacturer and the model number to find a diagram of the internal workings of the unit.
If no installation intructions can be found, it is possible to open the cabinet, but that can lead to problems for the novice.

[Jim Luttrall]

From your description, you may be loosing condensate through the secondary just because there is no trap on the secondary and air pressure is pushing the water out rather than draining by gravity throught he primary drain and trap. I would be looking further before changing anything though.

[Scott Patterson]

OK, the primary and secondary will be right next to each other. The primary will be a little lower than the secondary. I have never seen them on opposite sides of a unit! Outside of that the unit might not be level and it is tilted to one side and since you have a drain on each side, well you can figure the rest out! :D

When the plug is removed from the drain port you should have air blowing out, this is normal.

I'm betting that it was just connected wrong to start with.

[Jerry Peck]

How can I tell which line is the primary?


OK, the primary and secondary will be right next to each other. The primary will be a little lower than the secondary.

Like Scott, I too have never seen them on both sides.

[Gunnar Alquist]

I think I took this pic from a coil box.

[Jerry Peck]

I think I took this pic from a coil box.


Gunnar,

That is the first drawing from a manufacturer that I recall seeing which *does not* show a trap in the secondary condensate line. :eek:

Guess they want the primary trapped but do not care about air blowing out or being sucked in the secondary? :confused:

[John Ensign]

That photo is the exact photo that is on the side of my unit, mine's Beutler as well. Being that they are plummed on opposite sides, they seem to be at the same level. The unit is also level. I'll go up and see if I can measure the height from side to side to see if one is higher than the other. Thanks to all of you for your help!

[Ted Menelly]

I think I took this pic from a coil box.

With no clean out before the trap it would be a bit difficult to clean that trap or to just dump some bleach down into it.

And yes a clean out and trap on the secondary as well would be nice.

[Tony Coelho]

With no clean out before the trap it would be a bit difficult to clean that trap or to just dump some bleach down into it.

And yes a clean out and trap on the secondary as well would be nice.

I thought secondarys weren't supposed to have traps and drained to some place easily visible.

[Vern Heiler]

Looks to me like the secondary (or maybe the primary in this case) is tapped over, just to the right of the condensate line that is hooked up?

The diagram Gunnar posted is from an heating and air company not the manufacturer of the unit. I think?

On a standard A/C unit the trap, clean out and vent are a waste of good PVC in reality. While the loss of conditioned air has merit, it is a very small loss.

Almost all A/C units have positive air at the condensate drain openings. When heat pumps came along the fan was located down stream of the indoor coil and created a negative pressure. The negative air causes air damming and restricts the free flow of water out the condensate line.

Before heat pumps no one put traps in the condensate line. My interpretation of what happened is this. When the manufacturers found that installers were having trouble with the concept of blowing or sucking air, and there were heat pumps that were not having traps installed, they decided to fix the problem by having traps installed on all units. Even after so many years of installers installing condensate lines, they still get it wrong on over 50% of the units I see. The most common error is to leave the vent open. Several I have talked to incest it will not drain correctly if it is capped. By the way the only reason there is a vent is due to plumbing code requiring every trap be vented. There is no way a residential unit is going to produce enough condensate to fill the 3/4" line and siphon the trap dry. This just shows that the average HVAC installer doesn't have a full understanding of the condensate drain.

These are my opinions only.

Let the shooting begin:D .

[John Ensign]

Yes, the secondary plug is under the tape on that side of the unit. I measured the two sides which confirmed that the primary and secondary are hooked up correctly. I also confirmed that the unit is level. Guess I'll have to call the installer (beutler) out to hopefully figure it out. :(

[Jerry Peck]

I thought secondarys weren't supposed to have traps and drained to some place easily visible.

Tony,

The "secondary" condensate drain line is required to have traps (except that one instructions Gunnar posted), the "auxiliary" drain line is not required to have a trap (could have, but not required).

In that photo, the "secondary" condensate drain line is tied into the "auxiliary" condensate pan drain line.

[Jerry Peck]

When the unit is running there is a steadt stream of air that can be felt if I take the cap off the vent.

John,

That's not a vent, it is a clean out, and being as it is on the air handler side of the trap air *will* come out when the cap is removed, which is why it is capped.

That trap in the primary condensate line is not a proper trap.


What else could be preventing the primary from draining.

The improper trap.

[Tony Coelho]

Thanks Jerry!! Still a student. Still learning. I learn alot reading your threads.

[Vern Heiler]

What else could be preventing the primary from draining.


In my experience there is a small amount of debris blocking the primary drain line inside the cabinet. Usually there is a small channel leading from the pan to the outlet that gets blocked. Take the side panel off and clear it with your finger. Put the panel back on and seal it up with duct tape.

[Jim Luttrall]

Take a look at this site. They are marketing a particular "air" trap but the problem demo videos look promising.
Trent Technologies, VIDEO DEMONSTRATION: Manufacture of The CostGard Condensate Drain Seal (http://www.trenttech.com/video_demonstration.htm)

[Vern Heiler]

Take a look at this site. They are marketing a particular "air" trap but the problem demo videos look promising.
Trent Technologies, VIDEO DEMONSTRATION: Manufacture of The CostGard Condensate Drain Seal (http://www.trenttech.com/video_demonstration.htm)

#1. Only going to be viable with heatpumps. (typicaly)

#2. It is not going to comply with the requirement of a 3" lift at the trap. I don't remember if this is a code or mfg. requirement?

#3. Why do we need a trap at all in a positive pressure system? The videos all show reasons regarding negative pressure systems.

[Jim Luttrall]

Easy inspection and maintenance of condensate traps (http://hpac.com/mag/condensate_traps_brusha/)
Here is another site with some good info.

[Jim Luttrall]

#1. Only going to be viable with heatpumps. (typicaly)

#2. It is not going to comply with the requirement of a 3" lift at the trap. I don't remember if this is a code or mfg. requirement?

#3. Why do we need a trap at all in a positive pressure system? The videos all show reasons regarding negative pressure systems.
I am not advocating the product, just wanted to pass along the demonstration videos since lots of folks don't seem to understand the need for traps.

#1 - I assume you mean a draw through heat pump system. I believe the marketer specifies the product is for draw through systems.
I would point out that this product by design wastes energy by expelling a certain amount of conditioned air for the sake of less maintenance.
#2 - manufacturer or maybe in the IBC or UPC mechanical. This appears to be offered by some manufacturer's as a option.
#3 - We need traps on positive pressure systems to prevent air loss. Some improper drainage or splashing may occur on some positive pressure systems, but the big deal is air loss. Just think of intentionally poking two 3/4 inch holes in duct work.

[Jerry Peck]

#1. Only going to be viable with heatpumps. (typicaly)


I didn't watch the video so I'm not sure you are referring to, but ALL a/c condensate lines need to be trapped.


#2. It is not going to comply with the requirement of a 3" lift at the trap. I don't remember if this is a code or mfg. requirement?

Some manufacturers state a specified trap seal dimension, other manufacturers state a minimum trap seal dimension and the actual trap seal depth dimension to be based on the pressure within the unit, i.e., some will say 2" trap seal depth for up to 0.5 inches water column and for pressures above that the trap seal depth is 3 times the pressure (with a 0.75 inches water column you would still need the minimum 2" trap seal depth).


#3. Why do we need a trap at all in a positive pressure system? The videos all show reasons regarding negative pressure systems.

So the positive pressure does not blow the water out of the trap and then blow air out.

[Vern Heiler]

I am not advocating the product, just wanted to pass along the demonstration videos since lots of folks don't seem to understand the need for traps.

As I stated in my post, traps are only needed in negative pressure drainage (draw through), or typically heat pumps. (Needed refers to logically not mfg. req.)



#3 - We need traps on positive pressure systems to prevent air loss. Some improper drainage or splashing may occur on some positive pressure systems, but the big deal is air loss. Just think of intentionally poking two 3/4 inch holes in duct work.


The amount of air loss at the end of typically 20 to 30 ft. of 3/4" line is comparable to a gnat fart:D . It's a loss but not one I would lose sleep over. The increased likelihood of a blockage at the trap is far more undesirable in my opinion.



I didn't watch the video so I'm not sure you are referring to, but ALL a/c condensate lines need to be trapped.



Jerry if you didn't watch the video you probably didn't read my post either. Traps are only required because.....

[Jim Luttrall]

Vern, you seem to be on the same page as most of the installers in my area since none of them install traps correctly on positive pressure systems (or negative for that matter.) I routinely find both primary and secondary drains venting to the attic and it is the only cool(er) spot in the attic. If it is a gnat fart, that is one BIG gnat!
Bottom line is that almost all manufacturers specify a trap on both primary an secondary drain lines so the question of personal preference is a moot point.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry if you didn't watch the video you probably didn't read my post either. Traps are only required because.....

Vern,

I did read your post :p (I did not need to see the video - I understand WHY the condensate traps are needed), apparently you did not read my answer. :eek:

[Vern Heiler]

Vern, you seem to be on the same page as most of the installers in my area since none of them install traps correctly on positive pressure systems (or negative for that matter.) I routinely find both primary and secondary drains venting to the attic and it is the only cool(er) spot in the attic. If it is a gnat fart, that is one BIG gnat!
Bottom line is that almost all manufacturers specify a trap on both primary an secondary drain lines so the question of personal preference is a moot point.

I presume you mean open to the attic, as the trap is supposed to be vented to the attic.

Jim, I did not say that I don't write up missing or incorrect traps. I do all of the time but only because it is required by the mfg. and or code. I am just pointing out what traps are all about.

If the condensate line is run to the exterior of the foundation it typically runs for more than 20' and there is little air volume due to resistance of the run. If you look at your video you will notice they had to detect the airflow with a flame only inches from the unit.

Jerry I did read your answer and it only said it has to be. Give us a logical explanation that differs from mine.

[Jim Luttrall]

Vern, I guess you don't see many attic mounted units, or maybe the a/c guys are better in your area. Here attic units are the rule since we have few crawl spaces and even fewer that have the room for units in the crawl. Condensate drains are vented improperly leaving air blowing full force from the drain line into the attic. Usually both the primary and the secondary pipes are open. I will agree if the lines are closed and taken to the outside, it is less of a problem due to line restriction but most of our lines are less than 2' long before having an open vent into the attic.

[Vern Heiler]

Jim we have more attic units than crawl as well. If there is a trap and then a vent down stream there is no air loss. What I do see quite often, and as I mentioned, many times the trap cap is missing. I have even had HVAC techs argue that the drain would not work if he put a cap on it and refused to do so. I've had this happen more than once. With out the cap the air loss is worse than a straight line to the outside with out a trap installed at all.

My point is that the trap is most important when it is a heat pump system. It doesn't hurt to have a properly installed trap on a A/C positive air system but the saved air is minimal.

Jerry you realy should look at the device in the vedio. It is for heat pumps only! No water! Can't do anything for a A/C system!

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry I did read your answer and it only said it has to be. Give us a logical explanation that differs from mine.


As I stated in my post, traps are only needed in negative pressure drainage (draw through), or typically heat pumps. (Needed refers to logically not mfg. req.)


Traps are not only needed but are REQUIRED by code (because the manufacturer requires traps in the condensate lines).

You = not needed on positive pressure systems
Me = needed on positive pressure systems

How much more different do you want?

Jim answered your question/statement about it being a gnat's farts, with positive pressure it would be one huge gnat.

Look at it this way ... would you write and report a 3/4" hole in the duct work which is under positive pressure, under even less positive pressure than that condensate opening? If so, why? If not, why not?

[Jim Luttrall]

Vern, I think we are pretty much on the same page, except the final opinion:D
One thing I would point out is that the issue of it being a heat pump or straight a/c system is a misnomer. There are heat pumps with both positive and negative coil pressure systems and a/c systems with both positive and negative coil pressure systems.
I would encourage the use of a term that did not convey an erroneous impression that the use of a trap is dependent on the type of system (heat pump vs a/c) rather than the configuration of that systems air flow. What I think you are referring to is the question of the coil being under positive or negative air pressure (i.e. does it suck or blow without a trap?)

For my part, All systems with a cooling condensate drain either suck or blow. A trap should be installed to keep it from sucking in unconditioned and possibly contaminated air or blowing conditioned air out of the system.
Add to this, the improper drainage possibilities on both types of systems and the need for a trap does become apparent.

[Vern Heiler]

Jim, yes we agree to the greatest extent. I've been irritable with no wind and the lake full of power boats and felt like ratteling some chains :) . I got lazy with A/C verses HP, but I believe 99.9% follow that design due to location of coil down stream of furnace and heat strips downstream of both coil and fan. I know the exception exist but have only seen one or two, and that was years ago.

Wonder if John Ensign ever got his problem resolved?

[John Ensign]

Nope. I just disconnected the primary line and there is zero blockage. I'm perplexed because the primary outlet is lower than the secondary yet the water is being blown out the secondary. I'm going to install a trap on the primary right now. I don't see how that will fix it but I'll give it a shot. I'd install a trap on the secondary as well but it is nearly impossibe to access.

[Jerry Peck]

Wonder if John Ensign ever got his problem resolved?


Nope. I just disconnected the primary line and there is zero blockage.

John,

The first step I'd take would be to remove that improper trap on the primary condensate line and install a properly configured trap as shown on the installation instructions.

Then I would verify that condensate is (or is not) running out the primary condensate line beyond the trap by installing a short section of clear vinyl tube.

I would also install a short section of clear vinyl tube in the secondary condensate line to see if condensate is draining out there.

When you remove the panel to look at what is happening, you change the pressure in the unit and different things will happen, i.e., you may see things happening which do not happen with the panels in place and all sealed up.

[James Skinner]

John: Why don't you try taking the PVC cleanout cap off and then see what happens. If it drains then there is more fodder for discussion.
I see these caps missing all the time and write them up as issues. Is it a significant loss probably not but neither is a dripping fawcet. Until you start adding cost over time. And yes they are usually on the positive side.
Also, around here it is not uncommon to see the capps lying around in the attic where the start up tech left them. The building inspectors required them during construction but after CO when the tech started the system, he took it off and threw it away, and the inspector could do nothing about it.

[John Ensign]

I tried taking the cap off and it didn't change anything. I just replaced the improper trap with what i hope, is a proper one. I'm running the AC now. I'll let you know the results shortly.

[Vern Heiler]

I tried taking the cap off and it didn't change anything. I just replaced the improper trap with what i hope, is a proper one. I'm running the AC now. I'll let you know the results shortly.

Did you take the side panel off and look inside? As I said, I usually find debris blocking the outlet port with what you are describing. Taking the panel off is not all that hard, 4 - 6 screws and cut the tape.

[John Ensign]

Yes I took the panel off. It was pretty clean inside and nothing blocking the outlet. I've been running the ac most of the day but unfortunately it is not very warm today and no condensation is building up.

[Vern Heiler]

If all else fails take the panel back off and slowly poor some water on the coil. If the water doesn't get to the primary outlet, find out why.

[James Skinner]

Verify your outlet port diameters, one common method manufactures use is having different internal drain port diameters. They restrict the secoundary with a smaller diameter even though the same diameter pipe is connected to both. I've also seen special adaptor fittings used to accomplish the same thing.
Just reading your post it seems the biggest issue is getting the water to come out of the correct port. Is there any fluid flowing through the primary drain or do you have fluid flowing through both the primary and secoundary drain ports?

[Jerry Peck]

I'll let you know the results shortly.


I've been running the ac most of the day but unfortunately it is not very warm today and no condensation is building up.

Another update?