CSST used an "appliance connector"

[Michael Thomas]

Recent (2005) condo conversion in Chicago - I'm used to seeing hard pipe all the way to a furnace, boiler or water heater, in this case it appears that an "appliance connector" has been fabricated from CSST.

For starters, can that CSST be that close to the single-wall? Does not an "appliance connector" have to listed (and tagged) for that use?


Comments?

[Bob Harper]

Let me put those questions back on you:

-What does the code say about the final connection to the appliance valve? Does it state you *shall* use a listed appliance connector or can you pipe it 100% with black iron?

-Is black iron listed as an appliance connector?

-What is the clearance to combustibles off single walled vent connector?

-What is the yellow jacket on that CSST made of and is it considered "combustible" or "non-combustible" by the code?

Cracks me up connecting CSST into a ground union. Kinda' like wearing a belt and suspenders only this increases the chances of a gas leak several times over.

Looks like an upcoming world wide shortage of pipe dope on the the way.....

Bob

[Michael Thomas]

Bob,

Thanks for your reply.

Before posting my question I read through the entire Wardflex installation manual:

http://www.wardflex.com/images/FINAL_WARDFLEX_D&I_GUIDE.pdf

No mention of any clearance requirements that I could find from that vent pipe.

Perhaps such clearances are not mentioned because they are non-issue... or perhaps they are not mentioned because whoever wrote wrote the manual assumed that "nobody could be that stupid".

Since I don't don't know for sure which it is, I asked.

I also did a search throughout the entire document for "combustible", there is no occurrence.

So I don't know if that jackting material is considered "combustible" or not.

[Bob Harper]

Michael, the clearance is stated in the code--Not the CSST mfr.s literature. For a single walled vent connector, it is 6".

The jacket on the CSST is polyester, which is considered combustible since it cannot pass ASTM E-136 so therefore, it is too close.

CSST is "piping" just the same as black iron. It can go anywhere black iron can go including being piped directly to a gas valve but it can also do things black iron cannot such as have it's mechanical couplings buried in 'concealed spaces' such as wall cavities. You don't have to use a flexible appliance connector to the valve--they are optional.

I was just trying to get you to look into the codes for your answers and not bust on you.

Is that exposed B-vent to the right of the furnace? It should be protected and those ducts sealed.

Bob

[Gunnar Alquist]

I was just trying to get you to look into the codes for your answers and not bust on you. Bob

But... but... but...

Bob, the reason that we post questions on this board is so we won't have to look things up. ;)

[Jerry Peck]

Also, that flexible metal conduit (or AC or MC cable) is not properly supported and secured at the furnace end.

Looks like white pipe thread tape on those joints, more so than it looks like pipe dope.

Bob,

Looks like that CSST does not go directly into the ground union, looks like it goes onto a nipple which goes into the ground union.

[Michael Thomas]

Is that exposed B-vent to the right of the furnace? It should be protected and those ducts sealed... Bob


One could write a nice little report on this furnace installation alone....:(

For me the Pièce de résistance on these Chicago condo installs are the cheesy GENERALAire 800s - they never get serviced, and they all eventually end up leaking into the plenum if the water is left on...

[Bob Harper]

Jerry, I guess you missed my snide remark: I think it is ridiculous to require a ground union at a CSST joint. The purpose of the union is to be able to break the pipe apart, which the CSST does. However, most mfrs. have issued statements that their mechanical couplings are Not unions, which I think is silly.

I looked on the Wardflex site at their couplings and these do appear to be male NPT directly into the union but I don't see what matter that makes.

Some of the white pooky looks life Teflon while I also see white specs on the pipes similar to smears from over-zealous doping. Either way, it's a little messy.

I like that filter hanging out.

It looks like that furnace is tucked a little to the side where it may not have 36 clearance to the front. Yes, Michael, a lot to report here.

Bob

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, I guess you missed my snide remark: I think it is ridiculous to require a ground union at a CSST joint.

"I guess you missed"

That I did.

[Markus Keller]

Last I checked about 6-8 months ago, flex lines were still not allowed in the City. Spec.s are listed in the Mechanical Code book, which I lent to a friend, stupid I know, I really need to buy a new one. Nothing is listed in the plumbing code sections for the CSST. I know it wasn't allowed in 05 because I was still slamming guys for it.
Gotta love that filter. That's the one that comes with the unit, looks like it hasn't been changed since the install. My inspection of thursday had a General 800. I tell people to disconnect them before they do damage, which as you know they eventually do. If the client really wants a HUM, I tell them to spend the money on a decent one. Chicago repealed the HUM requirement for RES installs in 03 or 06, can't remember year for sure though.

[Bob Harper]

Markus, do you know the rationale behind their prohibition of CSST? Was the the lightning scare?
TIA,
Bob

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Its simply not been approved (or hadn't been last time I checked) for use.

Chicago writes their own codes, and the State of Illinois writes their own plumbing code. Chicago issues their own Plumbing licenses and the rest of the state the State issues the licenses. They are not interchangable - if you want to work in the City you must have a city issued license, if you want to work anywhere outside the city limits of Chicago you must have a State license; your State license might help you acquire a city license and vice versa but they are separate and independent of each other.

Electrical is still primarily TW, THHN, etc. in EMT in Chicago and close suburbs, often using the bonded boxes and conduit as EGC. NM isn't permitted and never was, and IIRC no smurf or similar. Prior Greenfield, BX, AC and before that K&T.

Gas is/was primarily black iron, no copper for residential gas or CSST, and appliance connectors limited to portable/personal appliances (ranges, dryers) and those items that may have to be moved to be serviced (cook tops, wall ovens, friers). Furnaces, boilers, water heaters, direct (warehouse) furnaces, heaters, etc. were all black piped. The old days the City used coke gas, it has had clean NG gas (low sulfur) for decades now.

Not sure if its Urban Legend or not but always heard had to do with the notorious problems they have had with rodent damage. Think its now the Norwegien Rat as well as mice, city rats and squirrels. They Gray Squirrels migrated to the City in the late 50s and manage to winter over in buildings. When I was young the old-timers back then used to explain the City was also fire shy attributed to the Great Chicago Fire, and the story has been that as various entities worked more with consensus involving manufacturers with an agenda to get their products approved, sold, and required, and less with fire, safety, and testing authorities, they are resisted or rather rewritten to be more restrictive and limiting as the consensus codes are felt to be too permisive. Although the region is near a major fault they plan less for earth movement then they do for fire. Compile that along with the strong Unions, "Political" connections, and various types of notorious figures/"organizations" "Associated" (controlling) both, and the unique power and control Aldermen have over their Wards and Illinois history of political corruption you have an interesting mix in a State that has not only "home rule" but has special provisions for the autonomy for both the City of Chicago and the county it is located in (Cook) in its state constitution. Then for the "cherry on top" consider UL's headquarters is only a few miles north of the City.

I know the city codes, including the mechanical, electrical and plumbing codes used to be available on line for free viewing via some publishing company site. Not sure if the most up-to-date versions still are (check the City's building office website there is probably still a link). IIRC the were reorganized/codefied sometime back that modeled the ICC code numbering system but are clearly their own Chicago code.

[Markus Keller]

Bob from my conversations with the DOB it is not so much a matter of 'product prohibition' but more a lack of 'product approval'. Remember this is the land of cast iron, copper and conduit. We don't go for no stinkin' romex:) .
If some manufacturing group had the money and clout, at least as much as the PVC people had would be needed, they might be able to get it approved. It's only been 15-20 years since PVC drains were approved for RES use. I don't think it's been more than 20 years. The debate and effort went on for many years prior to approval. It was a huge deal.
I don't hear any conversations about CSST being pushed for approval so I doubt it will happen anytime soon. As HG mentioned our licensing situation is bizarre and accurate as stated.

[Stacey Van Houtan]

Missing bonding would be my big concern for these photos

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Huh?:confused: That's your Big Concern?

[Stacey Van Houtan]

Yes

Class action lawsuites are a big concern. And this product has one. At this point there are many instlation revision occuring and correct bonding a issue. It cannot be used just as black iron and it is not a connector. It must stop prior to the shut off. Other installations methods vary. Check out current tech bulltens

[Bob Harper]

Stacey, can you provide your sources for your statements?

CSST is listed as fuel gas piping. Steel "black iron" pipe is approved as fuel gas piping but is not listed as such.

The CSST needs to run to an approved shutoff but it can continue downstream to the appliance valve where permitted by local ordinaces.

CSST does not have to be approved as a connector anymore than black iron does. Piping, whether black iron or CSST can run directly to the appliance valve.

This product does not 'have' a class action lawsuit---it 'had' one. Past tense. Since then, there have been changes in bonding requirements instituted and so far, there is no major move or consensus that the new bonding requirements are insufficient.

If you have a specific point to make about a product then quote your sources and be specific.

Bob

[Stacey Van Houtan]

Bob

Several items here

The Class action date of last entry was in Sept. 2007

Several Tech bulltiens by at least 1 Manaf. have been sent out since

There a important differences as to fixed and portable gas appliances.

Portable still need connectors

CSST should not touch a appliane wall if it has a metal flue thru the roof

These are different requirments than for iron.

see attachmet

[Bob Harper]

The OP case in point is a furnace---not a moveable appliance.

A lot of AHJs are now requiring even black iron to be electrically insulated from the appliance cabinet just like CSST.

You still have not explained why you cannot run CSST through a cabinet to the appliance valve just like black iron but are now indicating you should do so with a flexible appliance connector. You will start seeing more and more appliances coming off the line with a rubber grommet for the gas line penetration and we have to make they up in the field for both CSST and iron. I don't penetrate cabinets with flex connectors because it isn't listed for such. Having to use a grommet is not a prohibition against running CSST through a cabinet--it is a prescription how.

2007 is past tense. Do you know of a current on-going class action?

Thx,
Bob

[Stacey Van Houtan]

When the class action law suite does not matter from my perspective. PB piping has passed the dates for entry for the lawsuite but i still report it.

I see no reason not to run it thru a Fixed appliance wall with insulating a grommet.