Opening service panels

[Tony Coelho]

Hey guys! I'm doing my electrical module in school and was curious on your views regarding opening service equipment panels. Some electricians I've tAlked to don't think its a good idea, especially If one hasn't been trained properly on how to do so. My text says for combination panels it isn't recommened due to small clearances. My instructor tells me he does on some and doesn't on others depending on certain conditions that may exist. I'm curious what the pros are doing in the field like yourselves. Any tips, suggestions, or guidance? Thanks! :-)

[Dan Harris]

I could gather up a few hundred photos of items that I would have missed if I didn't open the panel.

[John Arnold]

I don't know any inspectors who don't open service equipment under normal conditions, for what that's worth.
Personally, I think the most dangerous thing I do as a home inspector is drive to the inspection. A close second is some of the things I find myself doing to get a look at the roof.

[Matt Fellman]

I almost always open them. In reality, you will have to move countless bikes, cooler and other junk to get to them but, as Dan said, the stuff inside can be problematic.

As long as I can get some decent footing in front of it and the cover isn't obscured by shelving I'll go for it.

I'd imagine they cover this in your class but, just in case not, always get in the habit of rapping electrical things you are going to touch with your knuckle as opposed to grabbing it. If you get shocked/electrocuted your muscles will all tighten up and if you grab something your hand will cinch onto it. A quick knuckle thump as a test and you'd likely just 'bonce' off.

It's one of those things that's just so engrained in my head I hardly even think about it anymore. EVERY panel gets a knuckle bump before I touch it.

[Gunnar Alquist]

Hey guys! I'm doing my electrical module in school and was curious on your views regarding opening service equipment panels. Some electricians I've tAlked to don't think its a good idea, especially If one hasn't been trained properly on how to do so. My text says for combination panels it isn't recommened due to small clearances. My instructor tells me he does on some and doesn't on others depending on certain conditions that may exist. I'm curious what the pros are doing in the field like yourselves. Any tips, suggestions, or guidance? Thanks! :-)

Tony,

This has been around the block a few times now. I suggest searching the electrical section for lots of information. This particular thread moved from one discussion to pretty much what you are looking for: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/15551-jerry-why-didnt-you-tell-me-not-wiggle-these.html

As for me, there are very few panels that I don't open. Unless there is a hazardous condition to prevent me from opening it. Too much going on in them to want to miss something. I would say that at least half of the panels that I open have something significant going on in them. I think that you will find that the vast majority of inspectors open all panels.

[Jim Robinson]

I think I have had two that I didn't open. One had a freezer full of stuff in front of it, and the other was painted with a really nice custom paint job across it. I asked my client if they wanted me to cut it open, and they said no, so I didn't.

[mathew stouffer]

If you are going to be a home inspector, it's a must. Unless you want to pay for a lot of repairs. Just my thoughts. Yes I realize it is dangerous, but so are a lot of things in life.

[ken horak]

A word of advice:
Always run your hand over the top of any electrical panel BEFORE you open it.
One can never tell what is laying up there waiting to fall inside.

[John Arnold]

If you are going to be a home inspector, it's a must. Unless you want to pay for a lot of repairs. Just my thoughts. Yes I realize it is dangerous, but so are a lot of things in life.

Well, if you're not going to open service panels, then you have to tell your clients that you aren't, and why not, and document same, and tell them to get an electrician to do it. You probably will lose business once this gets around, but you shouldn't necessarily have to "pay for a lot of repairs".

[Tony Coelho]

Thank you guys for the replies. I've opened all the panels when doing my exercises. It just didn't make sense to me not to open them when the text it suggesting not to. I mean How am I supposed to tell accurately what the service entrance is if its an underground lateral service? I realize the risk but it didn't make any sense to me. Do you guys leave the main power on or shut it off before opening anything up?

[John Arnold]

Thank you guys for the replies. I've opened all the panels when doing my exercises. It just didn't make sense to me not to open them when the text it suggesting not to. I mean How am I supposed to tell accurately what the service entrance is if its an underground lateral service? I realize the risk but it didn't make any sense to me. Do you guys leave the main power on or shut it off before opening anything up?

I don't know any inspectors that shut off the main.

[Tony Coelho]

Thank you all for the great tips and advice. I learn just as much here as in the class room. Thanks!!:-)

[Erby Crofutt]

Here's your key:

especially If one hasn't been trained properly on how to do so

Get the training AND the safety equipment and do what the customer hires you for.

[Ron Bibler]

As you start to open any panel Keep an eye on the screws and any other parts you are removing. One time I had a very small flicker from a screw as i was removing it from the face of the panel. This indicated that the panel had some kind of a charge. I put the screw back in the panel and walk away. :D

Known when to walk away... Known when to run...

Best

Ron

[Nick Ostrowski]

Everybody has the decision to make as to how they want to inspect. Like John said, you can let people know beforehand if you don't open panels but you'll lose business. If you've been doing it as part of your training and you're OK with it, keep at it. There is too much to be found inside service panels from common defects and safety/fire hazards.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Get the training AND the safety equipment and do what the customer hires you for.

Does anyone here wear the proper protective equipment when pulling a panel, or know anyone who does?

[Gunnar Alquist]

Does anyone here wear the proper protective equipment when pulling a panel, or know anyone who does?

A voltage sniffer is about $15 at the big box.

Rubber soled shoes.

Wear rubber gloves (I don't) or only grasp the dead front with your right hand as you remove it. Keep your left hand in your pocket. Less chance of having amperage run through your heart.

[John Arnold]

Does anyone here wear the proper protective equipment when pulling a panel, or know anyone who does?

I have some massive lineman's leather gloves with rubber inserts someone gave me when I got into home inspecting. Pretty funny. I don't think it would be possible to remove a panel cover while wearing them.

[Tony Coelho]

Thanks for the replies. I've been using a voltage detector, touching with the back of my right hand, wearing rubber soled shoes, using eye protection and rubber gloves. I try to be very careful not to let the screws fall. I've unscrewed the panel in a criss-cross pattern or diagonally and used the back of hand to apply pressure on the panel front to prevent it from moving. Thanks for your tips. One master electrician told me if I ever turn off a breaker, turn my head to the side. How does my method sound as far as technique goes in removing it?

[Raymond Wand]

Wear rubber gloves (I don't) or only grasp the dead front with your right hand as you remove it. Keep your left hand in your pocket. Less chance of having amperage run through your heart.

How do you remove the screws and hold the panel with one hand?

[John McQuiggan]

Are there any panels you will not open?

I'm thinking about those scary Federal Pacific Stab-loks. There are so many good reasons to recommend replacement that I no longer see the point of removing the cover. The spring-loaded covers are hard to put back on, the breakers frequently trip when you try to ease the covers around them, and the breakers themselves are often poorly connected to the bus bar. Then you face the usual nightmare of crowded, tangled sharply bent conductors.

I've stopped taking the covers off. I tell the client I will recommend replacement, why, and why it's unnecessarily risky to pull the front.

[Gunnar Alquist]

How do you remove the screws and hold the panel with one hand?

Ray,

Yeah, sorry. Test panel cover. Remove screws in normal fashion. Remove dead-front with one hand.

On many of the old Zinsco panels, it is necessary to lift the dead-front slightly to get it in place and some have live conductors up behind the meter. Sometimes the dead-front will slip upwards as it is removed. One hand helps to prevent serious injury. Once in place, I use two hands to secure the screws.

[Eugene Cameline 3rd]

Always open the electrical panel, unless some DYI,er decides he dosen't like the way it looks and puts it behind a wall.

[Thomas McKay]

Some common sense rules for opening the electrical panel.

1. Always open the panel box first as part of your inspection - you are fresher in the beginning an less likely to make a mistake.
2. Touch the box with the back of your had first; if it is hot you hand will not contract onto the cover. If the cover is warm do NOT open call for a qualified electrical inspection.
2. When removing the screws be very careful if they are the pointy type they can pierce the insulation when put back (might be the last thing you do). Panel box screws are the flat tip type only.
4. Use common sense always, if something dosen't look right don't open - if there is evidence of past fire or excessive heat don't open. Call for a qualified electrical inspection.
5. Be sure your health insurance payments are up to date.

Most state licensing and association standards call for inspecting the internal components of the electrical panel box but not for doing anything which will put your life in danger. :)

Thomas W .McKay
ASHI Certified inspector

[Don Murphy]

One more tip. Check all the breakers before you remove the panel. Make a of mental note of any that are in the off position. Sometimes when the panel is removed you may bump a breaker with the panel cover and accidentally turn it off. You'll want to know which one (or ones) you bumped. If a breaker is already off prior to your touching anything - note it in your report. It is not a good idea to energize a circuit not knowing why it is off.

[Tony Coelho]

Hey those are all great tips and will be sure to jot them down thank you.

[Mike Schulz]

Use screw drivers designed for electrical use. Always look at the screw holes where the cover/face plate will be installed to make sure the wires are out of the way when you fasten it back in place.
Use the tip of your insulated screw driver to poke around in the box not your finger. I'm still training myself on that one!
Have Realtor hold your hand during the whole process.:D

[Tony Coelho]

Lol! Good one Mike!

[Thomas McKay]

Hay Mike, I have opened well over 5,000 electrical panel boxes and never poked around in the first; don't think that is good advice - inspections of the electrical panel box is a visual inspection - don't poke around ever could be the last thing you ever did don't care what kind of screw driver you use I use a rechargable one but would never trust it with my life!!!! Hope you have good life insurance. :rolleyes:

Thomas W. McKay
ASHI Certified Inspector

[Samuel Landis]

Take a close look at this one. My inspections require that I remove the cover. However, there is generally no power. That is why I'm there, in order to inspect for the power co. prior to power being applied.

[Thomas McKay]

Samuel, this looks like an exterior connection and is out of the scope of a home inspection. Glad you don't have the power on it would scare the bejesus out of me. Thanks for sharing that photo inspectors don't need to put their lives in danger! :eek:

Thomas W. McKay
ASHI Certified Inspector

[Samuel Landis]

It is a small breaker box just inside the wall of a garage. The meter base is on the outside. My inspections are generally of the service equipment only. Notice the grounded (neutral) conductor attached to the bottom of the "hot" bus bar.

[Mike Schulz]

Thomas,

There are times specially in older boxes that it's a mess with little room and you need to poke around to see what is going to what. I wish all panels where as neat as new installs ....well most of them :D

[Samuel Landis]

If you like neat installs, check out this one. That is me going into the attic, (a previous career). The cause of the fire was not the fuse boxes, rather a gutter spike driven into a wire going to a exterior light fixture. The fuse boxes were under the back porch. I had to crawl in on my belly. Is it any wonder there was a fire.

Sam

[Thomas McKay]

Mike you have a good point but for a new guy he needs to stick to the rules about making his inspection of the panel box only visual. Use a good 30,000 candel power flashlight and you really don't need to move wires around if the box is that much of a mess it needs to be professionally inspected by a qualified electrical contractor. I had one several years ago that was in a crawl space that when I took the cover off cut off all the power - thank goodness for the falshlight. Sticking a screw driver or anything into a panrl box is just loking for trouble and is dangerous. :rolleyes:

Thomas W. McKay
ASHI Certified Inspector

[Thomas McKay]

Tony, thanks for this post it is good for inspectors of all ages the revisit their procedures for inspecting the electrical panel box after all it is the 2nd most dangerous part of a home inspection only preceded by the ladder. Keep asking good questions about any of the systems you inspect and you will get good answers from this forum.:)

Thomas W. McKay
ASHI Certified Inspector

[Tony Coelho]

Thanks Thomas! I know this subject has been beaten around the bush but this one turned out positive and I heard some great advice from the Pro's. Thanks again!!!

[Brandon Whitmore]

It's going above the min. standards, but I'd be curious as to the number of inspectors who do vs. do not stick their hands in a panel.

I'd hate to see how many multi- wire branch circuit wiring issues I would miss if I didn't move wires around. Then there's checking for loose wires which I find very often, pushing on wires to see whether they feel like 12 or 14 gauge-- sometimes it's tough to tell, etc. If you aren't comfortable sticking your hands in a panel, definitely do not do so, but I am curious now.

[Dan Harris]

It's going above the min. standards, but I'd be curious as to the number of inspectors who do vs. do not stick their hands in a panel.

I'd hate to see how many multi- wire branch circuit wiring issues I would miss if I didn't move wires around. Then there's checking for loose wires which I find very often, pushing on wires to see whether they feel like 12 or 14 gauge-- sometimes it's tough to tell, etc. If you aren't comfortable sticking your hands in a panel, definitely do not do so, but I am curious now.

I'm brave, but not sticking my fingers in the panel.
I use a screw driver to move the wires, and check if the wires are tight,
[ run it down the row of wires]
As far as 12 or 14, I look at the 15 amp breaker wires, then compare them to the 20 amp breaker wiring

[Matt Fellman]

I'll move things around in a panel from time to time to see what I need to. Usually, it's looking for a ground or moving something to get a good look at the neutral/ground bus.

This is typically done with my tongue while standing in a puddle of water so I can know right away if something is wrong :)

Honestly, I'd never stick anything in a panel on an inspection other than an insulated screw driver just to get a better view. If something's loose somebody else is going to have to find it. If it's been loose and caused an arc and scorch marks I'll let you know.

Great picture Samuel.... this reminds me of one of my many stories I tell on inspections. When you hear of an old house burning down due to old/faulty wiring people often act surprised. I'm surprised they don't all burn down. It's really amazing how safe wiring is considering how much power it moves and how seldom it leads to a problem. Considering how many old houses there are in my city and how many of them have absolutely extreme hazards I can't believe I can drive down the street without running into the fire trucks.

[Brandon Whitmore]

As far as 12 or 14, I look at the 15 amp breaker wires, then compare them to the 20 amp breaker wiring

I do the same. Sometimes bouncing back and forth multiple times. It gets tough at times either when the conductor is not visible, or when there is a mix of old and new wiring.

[Don Belmont]

As a practice I do open the panel if I feel it is safe to do so.

First I sniff the panel with my voltage detector. And that has kept me opening 2 panels so it works.

My inspection of the panel is totally visual once I get the panel off. I also do a thermal scan of the panel which being non-contact is fairly safe. (No it isn't magic). But the IR can give me an idea of what circuit(s) are drawing and if the temperature difference suggests any issues. (Key word is suggest).

I agree with what seems to be a common sentiment about the panel. There's just to many things that can be found (even limiting to visual), It is one of those areas that clients do get focused on. Truth is if the client mentions the electrical as a concern that just guarantees that I will be recommending an electrician no matter what I see.

As for opening the false front with one hand I use a small battary operated screwdriver. So I can hold the front secure and remove the screws. Avoid the risk of shorting out something in the panel.

[Dan Harris]

Truth is if the client mentions the electrical as a concern that just guarantees that I will be recommending an electrician no matter what I see.
.

????? 90% of my customers state that electrical is a concern.
What do you recommend if you don't see anything wrong?

The same amount also state plumbing, and roofing is a concern. Would you also recommend a plumber and roofer to those customers??

[Jerry Peck]

Truth is if the client mentions the electrical as a concern that just guarantees that I will be recommending an electrician no matter what I see.


????? 90% of my customers state that electrical is a concern.
What do you recommend if you don't see anything wrong?

The same amount also state plumbing, and roofing is a concern. Would you also recommend a plumber and roofer to those customers??

I'm with Dan on that.

Your client hired you because they "were concerned" and wanted to know. To then turn around and recommend an electrician because your client is concerned indicates you should just tell your client that you do not inspect electrical systems and your clients really need to just hire an electrical contractor to inspect the electrical.

And, as Dan said, would you do that for everything else? If so, why bother doing inspections?

Just contract with your client to pay you to write "have (tradespersons) inspect (system)" and then collect your check ... if you think they would have any reason to give you a check for writing that.

You have completely lost me on your thinking - why would anyone hire you if that is what you did??? :confused:

[bruce m graham III]

check out Pauls video he is one of the best
Electrical Inspection Training Video - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/electrical-training-video.htm)

[Tony Coelho]

Thank you Graham!:-)

[Stacey Van Houtan]

Several issues (not all) i teach new inspectors on panel inspecitons


Carry extra screws. You will drop screws behind the dryer or washer
Never replace pointed screws. Use two of the screw that you carry and leave the rest out of the panel DO NOT leave the pointed screws for the owner to install Leave a note for the owner
With a fused Main most of the time you must remove the fuse holder to see the fuse size. This I would usually do BUT warn those in the home and if the buyer is home have him turn off computer etc.
Practice re-installing a breaker. You will have one fall out when you remove the panel front.

[Jerry Peck]

check out Pauls video he is one of the best
Electrical Inspection Training Video - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/electrical-training-video.htm)

Let's see "one of the best" and he is showing wearing no personal protection equipment, poking his fingers around in the panel, holding a screw driver which does not have an insulated shaft (the metal shaft is visible - see his right hand when he is removing the cover and when he pulls his hand back while stating "we have aluminum"), putting his finger as the terminals of a double pole breaker ...

Whew!

... then, when the scene changes to outside, he is holding the panel cover with those magnetic holders - I can see trying to do that and accidentally tipping one or both of those holders sideways which will release that cover and allow it to drop, then he is looking at a Zinsco panel and saying nothing about it ...

And that's just from the first parts of the video.

[Dan Harris]

And that's just from the first parts of the video.

All you have to do is send nick $289. and you can the rest of the story for FREE :)

[Raymond Wand]

Ha, ha...:D

[Tony Coelho]

Hey great tips Stacy and thank you Jerry for making some valid points.