IR Thermal Imaging, toy or moneymaker

[Jeff Remas]

Lots of thermal imaging cameras are sold each year to home inspectors.

Are you making money because you have it and it generates revenue that you otherwise would not of had?

OR

Is it another toy and/or crutch in your tool arsenal to make you feel more comfortable about your inspections and it does not generate any more income than you were?

[United Infrared]

Good Question Jeff......

Having been a home inspector for over 13 years, I wrote a business plan on infrared in 1999 but we were just too busy then to make it happen and thank God cause the price came down.....In 2005 we spent about 20k on a camera and through just marketing to my existing base of clients, I generated enough to pay for the camera in 9 months however I split the cost of the 20k so basically I did 10k worth of IR in 9 months....this I consider pretty good.

Shortly after getting into the business, Flir approached me to be a local sales rep and help move equipment with home inspectors.....I have watched several buy and let the thing sit and not make money....it is a different market and this is the hard thing for many inspectors is to understand the opportunity and how to diversify.

Well, this led to the opening of my national infrared company and today we are the largest infrared servicing company in the world with over 63 thermographers in 25 states....Our thermographers are all independents, many of them home inspectors who wanted to do more than just do home inspections....there are ways to do it@!

Here are a few links, you can see some of our videos at YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com) and do a search for unitedinfrared

United Infrared, Inc. (http://www.unitedinfrared.com)
Give Your Customers The Green! (http://www.unitedinfrared.com/hi)

[A.D. Miller]

Lots of thermal imaging cameras are sold each year to home inspectors.

Are you making money because you have it and it generates revenue that you otherwise would not of had?

OR

Is it another toy and/or crutch in your tool arsenal to make you feel more comfortable about your inspections and it does not generate any more income than you were?

JR: Here is my experience. After 12 years in the business with little or no desire to purchase an IR gizmo, but prompted by the sheer number of prospective clients inquiring about my use of one (thanks to the sheep among us falling hook-line-sinker for these toys), I bought an entry-level camera. My thought was to ascertain the usefulness of the whizbang.

Shortly on the heels of my purchase came the GWB-induced Great Depression 2.0. Many, if not all, HIs in my market with IR cameras stopped charging extra for scans. This is the typical dumb-ass response by the typical morons operating in my area - perhaps all areas. You guys know who you are - let's not deny it.

It is true that I have found a few issues that would not have otherwise been as easy to locate without the camera, but none that would have been impossible. I am not inclined to spend $30K on a camera so I can traipse around on commercial flat roofs and accrue liability beyond imagination - not to mention raising my E&O premiums to the sky.

So then, I find that the cameras have little (not none, but little) use and do not, at least for me, appear to be capable of paying for themselves in their short anticipated lifespan.

I am certain that folks like RB will now chime in and extol the benefits of the devices, their hyperbole replete with mythological tales of overnight payback on the purchases. Maybe in their (still over-inflated) markets - not in mine.:D

[Raymond Wand]

A.D. Interesting.

I see many cameras for sale by inspectors who got caught up in the hype.

As a participant on Mike Holmes forum there are a few individuals, electrician and contractors who feel along with Mike that home inspectors should have cameras regardless of price. They tried to argue that any inspector or professional should have the full stable of tools. Unfortunately I did not ask the electrician if he had one or the contractors.

In my area of business I don't see the demand for the service and just cannot see the justification $$$ for the device. Clients don't want to pay anything extra, and why would I include it with an inspection at no additional cost other than a risk reduction tool which is an expensive way to reduce risk?

[Ron Bibler]

JR: Here is my experience. After 12 years in the business with little or no desire to purchase an IR gizmo, but prompted by the sheer number of prospective clients inquiring about my use of one (thanks to the sheep among us falling hook-line-sinker for these toys), I bought an entry-level camera. My thought was to ascertain the usefulness of the whizbang.

Shortly on the heels of my purchase came the GWB-induced Great Depression 2.0. Many, if not all, HIs in my market with IR cameras stopped charging extra for scans. This is the typical dumb-ass response by the typical morons operating in my area - perhaps all areas. You guys know who you are - let's not deny it.

It is true that I have found a few issues that would not have otherwise been as easy to locate without the camera, but none that would have been impossible. I am not inclined to spend $30K on a camera so I can traipse around on commercial flat roofs and accrue liability beyond imagination - not to mention raising my E&O premiums to the sky.

So then, I find that the cameras have little (not none, but little) use and do not, at least for me, appear to be capable of paying for themselves in their short anticipated lifespan.

I am certain that folks like RB will now chime in and extol the benefits of the devices, their hyperbole replete with mythological tales of overnight payback on the purchases. Maybe in their (still over-inflated) markets - not in mine.:D

Bagdad Bob... Sorry that you got in to late... :D

I think its is as you stated. Its your area and what limited knowledge you have of these Cameras... I get $ 200 just pull my camera out of the case.

Your problem is you are doing the same thing as all the others in your area and have not found your voice with your camera.

Good luck with that.... Your could try selling your camera... someone may buy it from your for pennies on the Buck:D

Best

Ron

[A.D. Miller]

Sorry that you got in to late...

RB: There was no "just in time" on this issue.


what limited knowledge you have of these Cameras

RB: I am not from California, so I can read. I read voraciously and am a quick study. I have read everything readily available on these cameras, so my knowledge is not "limited" as you suggest. What is not in the literature available is how to get normal people of sound mind to spend more money than they have to on information of limited value.


... I get $ 200 just pull my camera out of the case.

RB: That sounds like a typical BS statement from someone who has found themselves a bit short between the legs.



Your problem is you are doing the same thing as all the others in your area and have not found your voice with your camera.


RB: Maybe I should try a tuning fork?


Your could try selling your camera...

RB: No need to. It has limited usefulness, like some other tools I own. I, unlike you, did not spring for the >$10K model, so have lost nothing, rather I have gained verification that my initial intuition regarding these toys was correct. That is worth a lot.

[Dan Harris]

I've been using an IR camera for almost 4 yrs.
What I found is, it depends on your market and climate
Thermal Imaging on single family homes as a stand alone inspection is a tough sell.

On resale inspections it's a fancy toy that most customers like to see, but with the exception of a occasional water leak that could not be seen without an IR camera, [ apx 5 out of over 500 ] few ask for any thing else like missing insulation be corrected.

New Home Warranty Inspections.
Identifying missing insulation in walls and attic areas that are not accessible on new homes is a different story, when the builder is required to make the correction.

[A.D. Miller]

I've been using an IR camera for almost 4 yrs.
What I found is, it depends on your market and climate
Thermal Imaging on single family homes as a stand alone inspection is a tough sell.

On resale inspections it's a fancy toy that most customers like to see, but with the exception of a occasional water leak that could not be seen without an IR camera, [ apx 5 out of over 500 ] few ask for any thing else like missing insulation be corrected.

New Home Warranty Inspections.
Identifying missing insulation in walls and attic areas that are not accessible on new homes is a different story, when the builder is required to make the correction.

DH: Agreed on all points.

[Richard Soundy]

For some years now I have voiced a fairly strong opinion on the dangers of spending money for an IR camera as a justifiable tool for property inspectors.

I am fairly familiar with IR measurement, but the business we are in as inspectors could not justify the ROI [Return-On-Investment} for such a tool. What is more, if you know what your doing the standard "low cost" single point IR Thermometer is capable of catching the problems we try to uncover with IR - yes, a chart/table of numbers (measurements) is not as impressive as a picture for your client, but it is the findings that are important!

I firmly advocate that using a IR camera for moisture intrusion analysis is a high risk practice. For electrical surveys and insulation surveys it is great. For those inspectors who have purchased a IR camera, you should expand your services into the highly lucrative Preventative Maintenance markets (commercial) - there is a need for these services and you can offer one big advantage - A SERVICE WITHOUT A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

Best regards

[Ted Menelly]

All excellent points

New construction, yes. The missing insulation I find under attic decking all the time is substantial. Water leaks ... some one above stated 5 in 500 inspections.

There are several folks around here that put the money out (in the 5 grand range) for IR cameras and then give the service away to get more inspections (along with every other free service they can think of. I read an inspectors site out of North of Dallas yesterday. Free IR scan, free termite inspection, if needed, a free termite report and something else was in there as well. Claims of 15000 inspections in the past ten years or so but then somewhere else on the site it said 15000 in 15 years and then somewhere else it said 10000 buy himself in the past ten years and the rest from inspector trainees etc etc.

I do know of a couple companies that are just in the business of energy audits and that is there only business where the camera pays out because you are expected to have i=one for just that type of work. The unfortunate part of it, I do believe, the inspect all homes being sold for the energy audit rip off deal will soon be in a cities soon. That is the market I will be missing out on for now. But it has not hit here yet. I think it is a complete and utter waste of time to do an energy audit on homes that are being sold with out the mandate that they be updated. Then again I believe that it is a serious mistake to be putting financial burden on anyone selling or buying a home right now seeing how we are still in the down economy.

Look at it as rosy as you wish. This market (overall) sucks. Why should there be financial burdens any where in the housing market where it drives such a large part of the economy.

Honestly. What a bunch of idiot politicians pushing program after program spending dollar after dollar that we do just not have at this time. Also forcing folks to spends dollars they cannot afford ... Lets put it this way. Forcing people to spend money in one market areas when they really need and want to spend it in another market area. Take dollars out of other markets and pump it into the energy audit market. Looks great for politicians but in reality it is just robbing from Peter to pay Paul. Lets move money that would have been going over there to over here. We cannot lose. It will look great in the numbers market even though it is just taking away from another segment of the economy.

It cannot be more simple than that. It is all a dilerious joke. Talk about the old flim flam men.........

[Ron Bibler]

BAGDAD Bob what I was saying about your limited knowledge you have of these Cameras is that this is knowledge you will not find in a book or on an Internet web-site. or from a IR Class... you get this kind of knowledge from working with the camera day in and day out. A smart guy like you It should not take you but a year of working with an IR camera and looking into this other world of Delta T... I have come up with ways to provide information on how much damage that a dry-wood termite has done to a board. This information was something never understood by any other termite inspector. We had no method to see the Chanel's cut on the inside of a board before. This has become my voice and people seek me out for this information. but it took me over a year of working with a camera to find this information and unlock this new door... These cameras are just getting started and the more guys work with the thing the more doors will be opened. Some will only do what they see others doing. What do they call that? Monkey see monkey do......:D


Hope this helps. your a smart guy you just need to open your eyes.

Best

Ron

[Ryan Stouffer]

so in 5 words or less would you guys buy one or not?

[Ron Bibler]

so in 5 words or less would you guys buy one or not?

I just got a new BX320:D

Best

Ron

[Dan Harris]

so in 5 words or less would you guys buy one or not?

Yes for new homes
No ... ...... .....
I used my five words :)

[Raymond Wand]

Nope; not interested in buying one unless I get a really good deal or one falls off the back of a truck. ;)

[Jerry Peck]

"toy or moneymaker"

BOTH.

EITHER.

Depends on the inspector and what the inspector wants and does with it.

[A.D. Miller]

These cameras are just getting started and the more guys work with the thing the more doors will be opened.


RB: I am a persistent fellow, so I hope you are correct.:D

[A.D. Miller]

In five words, I don't know.:rolleyes:

[Dana Bostick]

I bought a camera and got certified in 2008. The camera has more than paid for itself in that time. I've done flat roofs, commercial building electrical scans, found moisture leaks that no one else has been able to find, found missing insulation on 11 month warranty inspections that were then fixed by the builder, found broken radiant heating systems in seconds rather than waiting 30-45 minutes, identified failed thermal glass in windows, and gotten some cool pictures of my animals to boot! LOL

If you take the time to learn what the camera is telling you and how to avoid false readings, it is a valuable tool. A tool and technique that needs to be sold and the clients educated on its capabilities. As soon as they see what it can do, its usually a slam dunk for a job.

While I will occasionally take it out (the camera ;) ) during a regular HI for "show and tell". I do not include it in the regular home inspection other than for my own use to confirm a potential issue for myself. It gets pitched as a separate service. As a "consultant" that does not make recommendations on or do the repairs, my liability is pretty limited. I pitch the service on the basis of speed. I can find problems in minutes that regular means would take hours to find, if they can find it at all. Not everything I find is visible without IR.

Bottom line, if you know how to market the service, it can be a money maker. it has been for me. My new slogan is "I hate nice weather!" When it rains here, my phone rings. Last rain storm brought in over $1200 on 3 inspections in two days plus referrals. That was for a total time investment of about 6 hours including the reports. Unfortunately, it rarely rains in SoCal. Got a storm due in this weekend so I'm charging up the batteries right now. When it rains here, my phone rings!

[A.D. Miller]

Does it not strike anyone else on this forum as a strange phenomenon that 1000 s.f. homes are worth $1,000,000 and IR cameras provide you a return on your investment only in California?:D

[Rick Cantrell]

Good point Aaron.
California has always been about ten years ahead of most places. Could be we are seeing what will be common for the rest of the country.

15k on an IR camera, to inspect a 100k foreclosure. Mmmm I don't know if thats such a good deal. Heck I can and have bought houses for less than 15k.

[A.D. Miller]

Heck I can and have bought houses for less than 15k

RC: Me too.

[Bob Spermo]

Jeff,

I am a home inspector and an energy rater. My IR camera has probably not made me any money in my home inspection business but many of my clients like the info and product it produces.

However, it has made me a good deal of money in the energy field. This summer I picked a 2 month contract that made me 5 times what my camera cost. I would not have gotten the contract had I not had an IR camera and the IR training.

[A.D. Miller]

BS: The Austin area is a bit like California in that respect.:D

[Dana Bostick]

Some of you guys are just Dinosaurs! ;) If a tool makes you money, good on ya. If it does not, maybe you just don't know how to use it properly.

Mine makes me money. It's paid off and all gravy now.

Some of you are right in that here in CA it is a viable service and is a small percentage of the sale price. People see the value. Of course, it you inspect dirt floor shacks in the outback, maybe not.:rolleyes: Have they actually gotten them thar fancy glass light bulbs out there yet. The're pretty cool! I can actually shoe my horses after dark now.

All in fun guys:)

[A.D. Miller]

Some of you guys are just Dinosaurs! ;) If a tool makes you money, good on ya. If it does not, maybe you just don't know how to use it properly.

Mine makes me money. It's paid off and all gravy now.
'

DB: Freud requests an inteview with you . . . :D

[Chuck Lambert]

A.D.,

Why is it hard to believe an IR camera can make one money??? As Dana says tools can make you money..You have tools right? Your flashlight, your pen, your paper, your computer, your ladder, ...etc.. You use them and make money with them correct?

IR camera use during Home inspections is the smallest use I have for mine. Ever heard of heavy industry? Predictive maintenance, electrical, motors, steam generation, food processing, corrugated paper, assembly lines, thermocouplers, injection molds, CMU walls, moisture intrusion, equine, bovine, pc boards, top fuel dragsters, top fuel funny cars, heavy equipment the list is actually endless....

Not trying to talk you into buying one...better yet don't, they are a bitch to learn, cost butt loads of money to calibrate and are hard as h@ll to market.

Chuck

[Cobra Cook]

(I WANT TO GET ONE!) MY FIVE WORDS. nOW I HAVE JUST NOT DECIDED WHICH ONE YET. WHY DO I KEEP HEARING ONLY ABOUT A 10- 15,000 INVESTMENT? WHAT IS WRONG WITH A GOOD RIDGED OR FLIR IN THE 5,000 RANGE. I USED ONE AT A VAREI MEETINGS LAST MONTH AND IT WAS NEAT, IT WAS A RIDGID BRAND I COULD HAVE PICKED UP FOR A LITTLE OVER 4,000. I PRACTICED BY LOOKING AT THE WATER CUPS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM TO SEEM WHICH STILL HAD ICE IN THE WATER OR NO WATER AT ALL IN THEM AND I WAS 100% CORRECT ON THE FIRST TRY. COULD JUST AS WELL HAVE BEEN A HIDDEN WATER LEAK OR MISSING INSULATION IN A WALL. :rolleyes:

[Dana Bostick]

First, back off the all caps. It's the equivalent of shouting.:rolleyes:

Second, do your research. It takes more than a camera to do this properly. It takes TRAINING and experience in building science or you will shoot yourself in the foot pretty often with misinterpreted readings. This will do you more harm than good and you will find it hard to have any credibility with clients if you can't tell the difference between a valid read and a reflection or a thermal bridge due to typical construction.

Yes, you can get cameras from FLIR and FLUKE for under 5g's that are suitable for building inspection work. I've seen cameras from $3K to over $100K. Add another $2k the training.

now that you have all this under your belt, you need to find a way to market it and actually make money with it.
It's take me a couple of years but I'm making money with it now.
Good Luck

[imported_John Smith]

Money maker - however, at some point you have to say this is a home inspection or this is an infrared survey. Sure you can do both, but the reality is IR is outside the scope of a home inspection.

Most large companies have their own IR guys to do PMs on mechanical and electrical equipment. Plus the real players require a butt load of liability insurance just to step foot on their property.

Ironically, I was listening to our local AM radio home repair guy yesterday and a caller asked him if he should get an HI that had an IR camera. The radio guy said just get a good home inspector and dont worry about the IR end of it.

Both serve their purposes. How much diagnostics do our really want to get into?

[Ted Menelly]

I love the 2000 in training. Pretty soon they will have level one through level 20 training. I have used one a dozen times and my friends that own them don't see anymore with their 2000 in training.

I love the ice cubes in the cup of water and then just cold water and room temp and then hot water imaging

The big sales pitch to everyone is

"make sure they have training and are cerified"

Hmmmm. I wonder who started that kind of marketing to the public?

Gee, we can sellm them a 5000 dollar camera (by the way, anyone ever look inside). Yep, you got it. A touch of electronics and away you go for 5 grand. And then we can sell them 2000 in certification. You know how nice a tele you can by and how fantastic a picture and the plethera of electronics it has and how many years it lasts????????

It is not brain surgey or astro physics. Its looking at an item and determining what you see. It does not take 2000 in training to figure it out.

Not digging anyone in particular but I hate the great ripp off that society either buys into or gets sold into.

[Bruce Breedlove]

Ted,

Do you think an MRI or a CT scan can be read by a layman or should they be read by a doctor (with a medical degree) and who has had training in interpreting MRIs and CT scans?

[Dana Bostick]

Everyone seems to want to lump the IR in with Home Inspection. It is not part of a home inspection! I rarely take it out at a home inspection other than for my own use. I sell a separate service for moisture detection, electrical faults, insulation verification etc. That's what pays the freight for this "toy".

The part that cost the money is the lens primarily, not so much the electronics. Yes, they are probably overpriced but what are you going to do? This ain't something you can get at Wally World. You shop for the best deal and then work out how to make money with it. It is totally doable.

I make as much for an IR scan as I do for a home inspection but it takes half the time, I don't have to crawl attics or crawl spaces, I could do it in a suit and tie and it presents little or none of the liability or "tail end" (4 years in CA) that a HI does. The market is changing and newer buyers are tech saavy. They appreciate the high tech nature of this service and are willing to pay for it. Why not take advantage of that fact? It's stupid to leave money on the table!

As for insurance, yes, I have a "butt load" of liability insurance as part of my business owners package but it cost 1/5th of what I would have to pay for E&O and it covers my equipment as well, including my computers, both at home and on the road. It's called Inland Marine insurance.

As most of you know, the "training" that one gets is mostly about getting certified. That Certification is for the clients more than anything else. They have been told forever that you need to get a "certified" person or the job is no good. We all know that is bullshit. But that is the game so we play it.;)

What separates the real deal from the wanna be's is the knowledge of building science and an understanding of how heat moves in and out of a structure. My HVAC experience has taught me more about that than any IR Cert class ever did. But I got the Cert anyway because clients expect you to have it.

Someone once said "It's not how much it costs you, it's how much it makes/saves you that counts.

Step up, get the equipment, learn how to read what it is telling you and how to market the service and say bye bye to crawling under **** infested houses when you are 60 years old! I'm 65 and I spent enough of my life down there as a plumber. No more!:D

[Ted Menelly]

Step up, get the equipment, learn how to read what it is telling you and how to market the service and say bye bye to crawling under **** infested houses when you are 60 years old! I'm 65 and I spent enough of my life down there as a plumber. No more!:D


I am assuming you are not going in crawls when doing an IR scan of someones home. I am guessing you still go down there when doing a home inspection ? as well as attics ?

[Dana Bostick]

I am assuming you are not going in crawls when doing an IR scan of someones home. I am guessing you still go down there when doing a home inspection ? as well as attics ?

Of course! Just putting myself in the position to not have to do them anymore by building my IR business and backing away from HI's as it grows. Not quite there yet.

[Ken Delang]

This is such a joke. If you are a HI you know that you do not qualify under Obummers stimulas. You need to be retrained. At least that is the case in Minnesota that does not even require HI Licensing. But you need to go to school because HI's are not smart enough to figure out heat loss.

My girlfriend was approved for the Winterization Act Stimulas. Has she heard from them in 5 months? No. More Democratic nonsense.

So here we are. Buy a camera? Why????? Buy a light meter and use the old scam that it goes up near the windows like old window salesman did.

If people voted for Obama, they must be stupid enough where an IR camera will not make a difference.

I forgot to say that as a qualified HI, Obama considers you too ignorant to do an energy audit.

[Cobra Cook]

sorry about the "caps" dana, I have no need to shout, my grand son was watching sponge bob and playing games on my computer earlier and had some how locked up the key board. after i started typing i was too lazy to go back and do it over. would you like to go some where and have a cup of coffee so I could apologize better?:D I will be buying one in the coming up year, have been reading up on the different brands but, I will not under no circumstance pay one dollar over a hundred grand. Do you know that fluke is the only manufactor that still makes their camera in the US?

[A.D. Miller]

you have to say this is a home inspection or this is an infrared survey.

IJS: True.


the reality is IR is outside the scope of a home inspection.

IJS: Though also true, the opposite is becoming true in the perception of the home buying public, at least in my arena.



The radio guy said just get a good home inspector and dont worry about the IR end of it.


IJS: Kudos to this gentleman.

[A.D. Miller]

It is not brain surgey or astro physics. Its looking at an item and determining what you see. It does not take 2000 in training to figure it out.


TM: You are right on the money with this observation.

[Andrew Turner]

Well, I don't think i could justify $10,000 just yet but I was looking at a $2000 Extech IRC40. I was wondering if anyone had any comments on it. i.e. is it suitable? I think thermal imagining would offer a significant value to my clients here in Eastern Ontario.

So my responses to the original post would be.

Toy = yes (fun to play with for a while)
Tool = potentially (if you apply it accordingly)
Moneymaker = yes (as you may get more business and referals based on this)
All-In-all, added value = yes

[Dana Bostick]

sorry about the "caps" dana, I have no need to shout, my grand son was watching sponge bob and playing games on my computer earlier and had some how locked up the key board. after i started typing i was too lazy to go back and do it over. would you like to go some where and have a cup of coffee so I could apologize better?:D I will be buying one in the coming up year, have been reading up on the different brands but, I will not under no circumstance pay one dollar over a hundred grand. Do you know that fluke is the only manufactor that still makes their camera in the US?

No biggie Cobra,
Just had not seen your name here beforfe so I did not know if you were a nube here AND to computers. :D With kids, it's lucky that's all they did. Every few months I need to clean off my daughters computer from all the crap her son gets on it. Last time I had to reformat and reinstall Windows completely it was so bad!

The $100,000 camera from FLIR is their "Gas Finder" that can see hydrocarbon emissions.:eek: Very specialized industrial field. Not going there.

[Cobra Cook]

a month a so i noticed that my computer was getting slower and slower and then started getting messages that i did not have enough memory on my hard drive to save a report? i have a 1 gb hard drive and thought no way, i then remembered my 5 year old grandson had been watching sponge bob so i went into the media center and found that he had saved almost 200 sessions of sb. 750 mb of it. not bad for a 5 year old!

[Deck Expert]

Hello To all California Inspectors...those of you with a thermal imaging camera are welcome to send me your business cards for referrals.

I specialize in inspections of waterproof decks, tile, roof decks, balconies etc; I use the Milwaukee digital camera system like you see at HD. These work great for me, I drill a small non obtrusive hole and can usually find a leak pretty quick.

Now and then though a client does not want holes drilled into their building components and it's these clients who need a thermal imaging inspection done...

so Nor Cal/SoCal inspectors, send me your card to

Bill Leys
DeckExpert.com
PO Box 14438
San Luis Obispo CA 93406

Rate sheets would be great to have too!

Thanks,

Rains here, calls will be a coming.

[Ted Menelly]

Ted,

Do you think an MRI or a CT scan can be read by a layman or should they be read by a doctor (with a medical degree) and who has had training in interpreting MRIs and CT scans?


Uhmmmmm

I know you are not serious about the comparison. I for one knows what is inside the walls. I also have done the exterior, interior (all floors) and know where everything is.

I know about air leaks, water leaks etc. I know of missing insulation and where the insulation should be when I am pointing the camera at it. I have lived in frozen climates, humid/damp climates and extremely dry climates.

I said I have used different cameras a dozen times or so. I have not been wrong on anything I have found.

I am not a radiologist or a Doctor and I do not need to be to look at a picture and colors in the picture and compare it to where I am pointing the camera at and tell you what is going on.

As I said. I am not taking anything away from anybody. Do you really think it is a miracle that IR cameras are becoming more prevalent with the makers advertising in different markets and the tremendous mass marketing to home inspectors selling all the fluff and hype. They say if you yell loud enough, long enough and repeat the same thing enough all will start to buy it.

BINGO. You and everyone else involved has been sold a bill of goods and unfortunately it is becoming a necessary evil that everyone will have to buy this toy sooner or later.

Hype and fluff. Hype and fluff. Flim, flam, thank you mam.

Now with that said . Where can I get a 5000 dollar camera for next to nothing. Unfortunately the time is coming to get one.

Thanks schmucks :mad: More money to spend on tools and more marketing to spend money on to get the money back :cool:

[Richard Soundy]

Ted, do you currently make full use of your "low cost" IR Thermometer? If so, how and where?

Just curious....

VBR - Richard

[Ted Menelly]

Ted, do you currently make full use of your "low cost" IR Thermometer? If so, how and where?

Just curious....

VBR - Richard


Well I guess that is pretty obvious. What's you point ?? Please don't try to compare them.

I said this a long time ago. IR cameras are slowly being pushed into a tool one must incorporate into the kit and will soon be a tool you must use on every inspection.

It is useless on an everyday inspection. Useless to the point that it is becoming one more process and notation in every area of the home. Extending the inspection process and report and increasing liability. AND with almost all I know of folks that have them are giving it away with the home inspection. More work, more expense, more marketing, more reporting, more liability, more time involved and no money at this time at all. There are several inspectors in our area that already give away termite inspections and reports with their home inspection. Some measure foundation movement and draw up a chart all for free and then throw their camera in the mix. Separate business.....Yes. Another item to add to everything I noted above.....No.

Look folks. Work is slow. The vast amount of home inspectors are lowering their prices and throwing everything into an inspection for less than nothing. They are increasing their liability and turn home inspection into a sham. The line has to be drawn some where. Enough is enough on additions to home inspection. Over the years in many areas of the country home inspectors are actually earning less than when it all came about decades ago and with all the free adds it is ridiculously low to what it use to be. Lets not mention the printing of money and lowering the dollar value every day.

Enough said. What may work for some in some areas is a joke in others.

Should we get into energy audits that are slowly becoming mandatory in parts of different states on the sale of a home. Soon it will catch on everywhere adding a burden to the sellers of the home with hundreds out of their pockets ..... for what....They don't even have to fix anything.

Things are going to far gentlemen. Most of you are up in years and if you look back over the decades you will plainly see what I am talking about.

The thing of the future ???????????????????? An unnecessary thing brought on by manufacturers of a tool that they saw another whole new world to market to. This is it. The tool of the future. Soon everyone will have to have one. Come buy one of ours and oh yeah, take our 2000.00 course to get a certification. Because with out a certification you won't sound professional enough to push the inspection.

Gees. I am shocked that so many were talked into it in such a short time. Most that took the class and bought their toy don't even use it or sold it off already. Most of the rest are throwing it into the home inspection for free to obtain more home inspections with th wiz bang toy they bought.

Yep....I'm done....Like I said....where can I get a decent one for next to nothing.

[Deck Expert]

I'll weigh in with my 2 cents, even though I ain't got no dog in this fight...

Every thermal imaging inspection I've ever attended has been an eye opener...the camera can be used to find leaks-air, water whatever.

As a contractor, I'm in the same boat as HI's, battling the low ball competition for work. So many of you are crying about that...

this has been the best opportunity for me to show my clients why I get paid what I get paid...because I'm the best. In all due modesty of course.

I don't match the low ball competitors prices, I don't cry about their tactics, I just keep doing what I'm doing, working with my existing client base for referrals, and marketing to the high quality contractors and business who will pay me what I'm worth.

Take your camera and use it to market...business slow? Sign up for a booth at your local home and garden show, jump in with some Realtors who are giving a seminar, cold call real estate offices, use mailers to send to target market businesses demonstrate the damn thing and wow the audience...and they'll pay you for your services. If you feel that your worth it of course. Otherwise, your worth no more than the hack down the street who is low balling you and selling simply on price.

The camera works, like it or not. Yes the mfg's market it, get a clue and realize yes I'll have to get "certified" but holy sh*t, invest in yourself and your business.

It's getting cold, the dinosaurs are on the verge of extinction...evolve or die!

[Ted Menelly]

I'll weigh in with my 2 cents, even though I ain't got no dog in this fight...

Every thermal imaging inspection I've ever attended has been an eye opener...the camera can be used to find leaks-air, water whatever.

As a contractor, I'm in the same boat as HI's, battling the low ball competition for work. So many of you are crying about that...

this has been the best opportunity for me to show my clients why I get paid what I get paid...because I'm the best. In all due modesty of course.

I don't match the low ball competitors prices, I don't cry about their tactics, I just keep doing what I'm doing, working with my existing client base for referrals, and marketing to the high quality contractors and business who will pay me what I'm worth.

Take your camera and use it to market...business slow? Sign up for a booth at your local home and garden show, jump in with some Realtors who are giving a seminar, cold call real estate offices, use mailers to send to target market businesses demonstrate the damn thing and wow the audience...and they'll pay you for your services. If you feel that your worth it of course. Otherwise, your worth no more than the hack down the street who is low balling you and selling simply on price.

The camera works, like it or not. Yes the mfg's market it, get a clue and realize yes I'll have to get "certified" but holy sh*t, invest in yourself and your business.

It's getting cold, the dinosaurs are on the verge of extinction...evolve or die!


Look. I respect all you are saying.

Dinosaurs have nothing to do with home inspection. Crying about low ballers ??? Seriously, you are a contractor, not a home inspector.
Get certified ????? You have been sold beyond the point of reason. If I were not a home inspector it may be a different story. I would be marketing a different style and type of business. When one is marketing as a home inspector it just adds a greater burden to endlessly add new equipment "certification", more liability. You seriously do not understand home inspection. Do you realize that home inspectors are heald to a seriously high standard. The amount of trades it takes to build a home and all the knowledge of all those trades are wrapped up into one man.....The home inspector. There is already way to much to be looking for in a short amount of time.

IR camera + seperate charge. That is the ideal position to be in. IR camera added to an inspection as in given away for free. That is real life.

You seem to read only parts of posts that you wish at the moment. This entire thing has seriously gotten out of control.

I Like the idea of an IR camera. I don't like the idea of spending 5000 and another couple thou for "certification" only to compete in the home inspection field against those that put all the money out for this to go into a completely different field plus their home inspection and then found out everyone else already did the same thing and now they are throwing it in for free with a home inspection.

Invest in yourself ??????? Are you serious. I have invested in myself for 35 years and 30ish just in home inspection.

For those of you out there thinking of buying your new toy and certification. Leave the home inspection field first and start a new business. If you think you are going into the next step of multiple businesses it is far more likely you will remain being a home inspector with 7 to 10,000 in new toys that you will be giving away with the home inspection. If you want to get into the energy auditing business.....well.....there is another whole certification for that. for about another 10,000 in tools and certs and then of course marketing.

Leave home inspections alone. Draw a line between all these different businesses and stop throwing more into the mix for home inspection.

One more thing. As far as getting into this fight.......

There is no fight. It is an exchange of ideas and opinions.

What a novel concept, huh? No fight.

[Richard Soundy]

Ted, I do not dispute your statement in the slightest and with regards to the use of an IR Camera I agree fully.

You ask "what was my point" regarding the question? Well here is the point:

An IR Thermometer versus IR Camera -
A. Big price difference, works on same principle, one needs training/certification other does not (that is a marketing and money making ploy for sure...).
B. Since it works on the same principle one is equally capable of finding a problem as the other. Naturally, not at the same speed and one does not have the same impressive picture to show the client. But, based on Bill's the Deck Man statement - is "being the best" finding the problem or impressing the client? It just does not make business sense in home inspections with the ~$200 versus ~$8000 price differential.
C. Back to my original question (assuming most inspectors have an IR Thermometer). How well do you understand your IR Thermometer and how much use do you get out of that same instrument?? For those who jump to a IR camera without using and analyzing with a single point IR Thermometer you must have a lot of money to throw around....

Best regards - Richard

[Dana Bostick]

A "single point" IR (non-contact) thermometer works on the same principle as an IR camera. Many of the same limitations apply as well. Emissitivity of the surface being scanned, spot size vs. distance (very important with cheap units) etc.

The measuring spot from a non-contact thermometer gets bigger as the distance increases, like a cone. The cheap ones have a 6:1 ratio. If you do not fill the spot with the surface being read, it will be inaccurate. With cheap ones, you need to get real close, 12-24 inches or less. With the better ones, you can read from farther away. The unit I use has a 5 inch spot at 80 inches and is NIST rated. 16:1 ratio. That is good enough to get the whole register in the spot from the floor level. Shiny surfaces have less emissivity in the IR range which can lead to an inaccuracy. This is the ability of a material to emit IR radiation. With an IR camera, this can be compensated for by applying a strip of electrical tape to the surface you want to measure. For instance on window glass, stainless steel or chrome surfaces.

For HI use, this accuracy is not so much an issue when using a camera. You are looking for an unusual difference that should not be there, not the actual temperature in most cases. A decent non-contact thermometer can do the job quickly for things like getting a quick temperature read from a heating register or a return air grill.

This thread seems to have gotten off into some serious technical areas that are totally off the point. We are not there to act as technical experts in the heating and cooling field. We are there to tell the client if the damn thing is even working and putting heat or cool into all the rooms! A decent non-contact will do that pretty quickly.
When I was working as an HVAC installer, I had to physically climb up to every register and stick a temperature probe into the register to get a read. I like this much better and don't need the level of accuracy of a tech.

[Matt Fellman]

It must be a regional thing... Over the last 5 years or so I can count on one hand the number of times I've even heard someone mention them (outside of this board of course).

I like the potential for use as an energy audit/evaluation tool. My area seems to be focusing a lot on that and if I ever buy an IR camera it will be to pursue work in that area.

[Ted Menelly]

Ted, I do not dispute your statement in the slightest and with regards to the use of an IR Camera I agree fully.

You ask "what was my point" regarding the question? Well here is the point:

An IR Thermometer versus IR Camera -
A. Big price difference, works on same principle, one needs training/certification other does not (that is a marketing and money making ploy for sure...).
B. Since it works on the same principle one is equally capable of finding a problem as the other. Naturally, not at the same speed and one does not have the same impressive picture to show the client. But, based on Bill's the Deck Man statement - is "being the best" finding the problem or impressing the client? It just does not make business sense in home inspections with the ~$200 versus ~$8000 price differential.
C. Back to my original question (assuming most inspectors have an IR Thermometer). How well do you understand your IR Thermometer and how much use do you get out of that same instrument?? For those who jump to a IR camera without using and analyzing with a single point IR Thermometer you must have a lot of money to throw around....

Best regards - Richard

I use a fluke 63 and I believe it is a 12 to one. I point it at anything suspect in a home such as bad receptacle, old or new water stain, walls with plumbing in them and drifting off to where there is no plumbing, around the base of windows and the wood and or drywall below them drifting off away from the windows. I am looking for differences. The 12 to one is perfectly fine for showing differences. Pointing at vents you cannot get near or just the ones over head. I try to maintain similar distances away from these items to get an average reading. A quick pointing around duct to plenum connections and such. I could not begin to tell you the ways I use an IR thermometer. Before the come backs start. These readings are for a general all around reading not for accuracy of function

Now for the next note (nothing to do with you Richard)

I have full respect for IR cameras and there uses. I do not hold fault to folks that may pull them out at a home inspection just to get that second or third opinion of there own diagnosis.

The only fault I hold to anyone is giving services away. The training, certification, time involved, liability, continuing ed, you name it. Why anyone want to give all there knowledge away in every other field beside home inspection is beyond me. As mentioned before. A home inspector has to draw from every single tradesman's knowledge to be a home inspector. What they know, we must know. Why anyone would want to give more away than that is beyond me. Why anyone wants more liability than there is in a home inspection is beyond me. Why any home inspector wants to keep adding and adding and adding more areas to their home inspection is beyond me.

[Michael Thomas]

http://paragoninspects.com/images/ir/corner_leak_01_170pix.jpg

Fig 1 What the eye sees.

http://paragoninspects.com/images/ir/corner_leak_02_170pix.jpg

Fig 2 What the camera sees.

http://paragoninspects.com/images/ir/corner_leak_03_170pix.jpg

Fig 3 What's under the rooftop deck once they pull it up.

Fig 2 is why the infrared water intrusion side of the business is a steadily increasing portion of my income.

[Deck Expert]

Great pictures demonstrating why I am a fan of Thermal Imaging...beats destructive testing, simplifies the process of determining blame and cause, costs less.

FYI ain't got no dog in this fight was a cliche..

Been a realtor, seen lots of HI's done, know and appreciate what a HI does and the exposure to liability there is...that's why I'm a limited specialty inspector....and oh btw, ever seen what a waterproofing contractors insurance liability costs? Starts at 7k per year...and the premium only goes up with more $ volume in sales from there.

[Ken Delang]

Dana,

You are amazing. You brought up some points I never thought of before.

Sure some owners might want to see some "High Tech" pictures, but your method actually can give some usable data.

Cameras? IR cameras? We don't need no stinking cameras! IR cameras are for HI's looking for a gimmick man. As that great statesman, Jimi Hendrick once said..... the world is a gimmick man.....

Home owners want data and not pretty pictures. Spot data will allow people to insulate. A picture only shows heat loss, but not the absolute location. GOOD JOB.

Ken

[A.D. Miller]

Home owners want data and not pretty pictures.

KD: Unfortunately, this is probably not the case. Most, in my experience, buy the sizzle and not the steak.

[Dana Bostick]

Thanks Ken,
I use both an IR non-contact thermometer and a FLIR IR camera. Usually not the same inspection though. The non-contact is used for heating and cooling "quick reads" and on the electrical panel to spot an excessively hot breaker.

The IR camera is only used for a full-on IR scan as a separate inspection. I will use it to check to see if a radiant heating system is functioning. It's very fast for that. I can tell in a minute of two if it is rather than wait 10-20 minutes for it to come up to speed.
http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l426/Kizzyspop/Thermal%20Pics/Radiantfloor.jpg

[Cobra Cook]

Ken, it appears that you do not believe in continueing education or proven technology. While i do not have an ir camera i will surely get one as soon as the funds come available. This I say for the same reason I got certified in mold inspections, that service is not used on every inspection, but the reason was to provide my customers with the best of the best is service and availiblity. Why would you want to give up a tried and true service that will make you money that is if you are not too lazy to take it out of the case and market it, to some one else?. What would the US Military do without the ir cameras they use in the defense of this country, why is it illeagal for the companies who sell in this country these products, to ship them overseas? you must be able to really see what you could not see without these cameras. Now with that said and in a far fetched way, don't get one, but do not tell us that your customer do not want the most knowledge you can give when they are about to make the most expensive purchase ever. So you do not take any pictures? wow i will just say you have it made. Dana i agree you should not have to take the camera out on every inspection but when i get one and it will be soon I will for awhile be breaking it out for a quickie shot or like a commerical on tv to let more people talk about how neat is was to be able to see what the inside of the refrige looks like with the door closed. Does the light really go off when the door closes? Just a thought, i can hear the phone ringing now. It will fulfill my desire to go into energy audits and also to quicken the time it takes to do a mold inspection.:)

[Dan Harris]

Dana,

You are amazing. You brought up some points I never thought of before.

Sure some owners might want to see some "High Tech" pictures, but your method actually can give some usable data.

Cameras? IR cameras? We don't need no stinking cameras! IR cameras are for HI's looking for a gimmick man. As that great statesman, Jimi Hendrick once said..... the world is a gimmick man.....

Home owners want data and not pretty pictures. Spot data will allow people to insulate. A picture only shows heat loss, but not the absolute location. GOOD JOB.

Ken

KEN !!! Where in the heck have you been?
Did you get all your differences resolved with nickos club ? :D

[bob smit]

Here's a good reason for an IR, not necessarily a camera.
Over years of being an E-contractor I have found on numerous occasions where the sheathing on the service cable acting as a conduit for water has damaged the main breaker in a panel board. A water leak anywhere above will also avail the same result.

Besides the main being damaged, the terminations are also compromised.
The damage is not always detectable by simple visual inspection. Usually, the main will not trip and the conductors are over heated due to the alum oxide (copper not as bad).
The public needs your help with this issue, HI's. Your the only ones who have this opportunity to find this problem before it becomes fatal.
The ones that I have found as an electrician came about after the customer has magically lost power to one of their legs, or in a few cases, had a fire.

Just a suggestion, what about asking the homeowner, seller, purchaser, if they would like a Term Image for a small additional fee? Even at $5.00, it would pay for the equipment eventually. Just a suggestion.
Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector

[Dana Bostick]

Bob-
Since I always have it with me on an HI, I do use the non-contact to do a quick scan of the open panel for hot spots. If I do see something, I may go out and get the camera and shoot a pic for the client. The Extech is a bit faster and less bother for a "quickie" look.;)

[A.D. Miller]

Even at $5.00, it would pay for the equipment eventually. Just a suggestion.

BS: OK, let us assume two inspection per day, seven days a week, and the $5.00 per inspection you suggest. At that rate it would take 8.21 years to pay for a $30K camera. The camera will not last that long - and neither will the inspector at that rate of inspections.:D

Even assuming the more usual 200 inspections per year and an entry level camera priced at $5K you are looking at 50 years before you get a return on your investment.:eek:

Of course, if you ask the IR promoters on this forum, they get $200 and up on each inspection just for whooping it out. I remain skeptical, as should you.

[Cobra Cook]

AD, change the batteries in your calculator please, 200x5=1,000x5=$5,000.00 in five years:cool: It is clear that you do not wish to get involved with the IR technology and there is nothing wrong at all with that, it is just another way to make a few bucks. But wow Bob, only five dollars to pull it out? How puch extra to put it in?:D
Not every tool i buy is to recover the actual cost over a specific period of time but mostly to make what i do easier. I guess if a camera would cut just a half hour off of each inspection at my hourly rate of what i charge for other services i perform, is $65.00, then eventually it will pay for its self. No matter i will be able to take on maybe another inspection or other service in the same day or i could be just be home basking the the hot tub and smoking another Habana Made in Habana,Cuba "ROMEO JULIETA"s I purchased on my last trip to the Carribean. Either way it could be a win win situation.

[Deck Expert]

"Home owners want data and not pretty pictures."

Lawyers shut up in depositions when presented with inarguable pictures demonstrating the problem. Are thermal camera's not allowed in a courtroom because the technology is unproven? No...it's pretty damning evidence

Clients understand better when presented with pretty pictures that have an explanation below the picture.

No one says you have to buy one, but get outta the way as your competitors run you off the road of technology and beat you out of jobs.

"There's no crying in baseball"

[A.D. Miller]

AD, change the batteries in your calculator please,

CC: That was produced from the wetware calculator with inaccessible batteries.


It is clear that you do not wish to get involved with the IR technology

CC: Too late, I already have one of the things, just can't figure out why I bought it.:D

[Jim Luttrall]

OK, AD, you have been bustin' Ron's chops about his whiz bang ray gun for way over a year now but have had this closet affair for how long now?:eek:

Have you really just been wanting the guys that are out of the closet to provide the justification for your indiscretion?;)

By the way can I borrow it sometime?:D

[A.D. Miller]

OK, AD, you have been bustin' Ron's chops about his whiz bang ray gun for way over a year now but have had this closet affair for how long now?:eek:

JL: No, you must've missed my IR debut post, bit I did fess up as soon as I bought it. In fact, before I bought it, RB tried to sell me his old wore-out unit.



Have you really just been wanting the guys that are out of the closet to provide the justification for your indiscretion?;)


JL: That sounds like something I would write. Have you seen a doctor about that?


By the way can I borrow it sometime?:D

JL: Why sure. I don't have it printed up yet, but the loaner fees are something like $100 per hour. At RB's claimed rates you could easily make $100 per hour above that, no sweat.:D

[Richard Soundy]

A few comments on the many postings from above:

[a] The 3 picture set shown by Michael Thomas - the client is really only interested in Fig 3 (the problem). I have no doubt that the problem could have been discovered by Fig 1 (what a camera sees) better still I am also relatively sure the eye could also see it far better especially backed up by a moisture meter/IR thermometer! Off course Fig 2 is the "wow" factor (even Bill is wowed).

[b] Dana's picture of radiant heating - once again the unsaid "wow" factor "I can see my radiant heating lines". Do you inform your client that it is not the case? No, once they are wowed it is best to leave it as such. As an inferred measurement it is subjected to many possible mis-readings - "wow" and "double wow" "How did they know the person sitting at the desk was going to be exactly in that position when laying the radiant heating lines???

[c] I regards to Bill's primary application as a moisture intrusion measurement, I can assure him that in such application the IR images are now subjected to a double inferred measurement finding (temperature transfer to outside visible area and low temperature readings being water) This conclusion can easily be disputed in a court of law. Bare in mind there are many cases (especially in the commercial world) where roofs are ripped off only to find the result of a false positive. Guess who gets sued? Carefully consider the risk factors.

All the best - Richard

[A.D. Miller]

Bare in mind

RS: Good description of the IR disciples. Freudian slip?

[Richard Soundy]

Quite observant of you ADM .... if it truly is a Freudian slip on my behalf it would read more like "bare in Bank" since we are talking about a ~$200 versus a ~$8000 investment - I certainly know where I would stand in the Home Inspection industry.

VBR - RS

[Marc M]

Getting New Fluke TIR32. (whenever the heck it comes out)

[bob smit]

I knew that statement, 'charge 5/insp', preceded and followed by, just a suggestion, would create some discussion. I just didn't realize it would work so well.
One thing I got to hand to this site; U mugs don't leave any stone unturned till the horse kicked is surely dead. If I didn't know any better I'd think U're all closet AHJ's.
Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector

[A.D. Miller]

If I didn't know any better I'd think U're all closet AHJ's.

BS: Ouch!:eek:

[Jerry Peck]

If I didn't know any better I'd think U're all closet AHJ's.


Bob,

Some of us have been out of the closet for some time now ... doing AHJ inspections. :D

[Patrick McCaffery]

IR Camera’s, pros and cons.

Having been both a Reliability Engineer and a Diagnostic Technician, which included Vibration Analysis, Infrared Thermograpy and Ultrasonic Testing for a large Manufacturing Company, here are my opinions:

Predictive Technologies are very useful in predicting failures and diagnosing problems, if you have the experience and proper training.
Predictive Technologies are expensive.
When the recession began if manufacturing the first thing that they got rid of was Reliability and Predictive Technologies, due to the cost.
Are you going to scan every wall, ceiling and electrical outlet? This will take extra time. You then have to review and determine what you are viewing and then add this image to your report. This will take more time. Are you going to charge extra for it, or absorb it in the cost of the inspection? Are the Realtors and clients prepared for the extra time?
Home Inspections are supposed to be visual inspections of accessible areas.Having said all that, I can see the benefits for infrared testing or any other non-evasive testing, however for a typical home inspection, the cost would be difficult to justify.
If you can afford the equipment and use it for increasing your revenue by doing just electrical inspections, problem analysis or energy audits, the cost may be justified.
I offer these opinions not to dispute the advantage of predictive technologies, only to stimulate constructive thought. There could be an opportunity to expand the Home Inspection business, for when times are a little slow. At this time, I cannot justify the cost and will try to do the best visual inspection possible, providing the best cost for my clients.

[Michael Thomas]

a] The 3 picture set shown by Michael Thomas - the client is really only interested in Fig 3 (the problem). I have no doubt that the problem could have been discovered by Fig 1 (what a camera sees) better still I am also relatively sure the eye could also see it far better especially backed up by a moisture meter/IR thermometer! Off course Fig 2 is the "wow" factor

1) There was no evidence of moisture present in visible light.

2) It's very difficult to reliably detect elevated moisture level via non-imaging thermal measurements alone at such locations as every exterior corner will be warmer or colder than the surrounding wall surfaces due to thermal bridging.

3) The "Wow" factor in that image was what convinced both the buyer and seller that a leak was present and persuaded the seller to remove the deck on the roof above to discover the source.

4) The buyer is a RE attorney - based on his experience, which is he going to recommend to his clients... the inspector with the IR camera, or the one without?

[A.D. Miller]

IR Camera’s, pros and cons.

Having been both a Reliability Engineer and a Diagnostic Technician, which included Vibration Analysis, Infrared Thermograpy and Ultrasonic Testing for a large Manufacturing Company, here are my opinions:

Predictive Technologies are very useful in predicting failures and diagnosing problems, if you have the experience and proper training.
Predictive Technologies are expensive.
When the recession began if manufacturing the first thing that they got rid of was Reliability and Predictive Technologies, due to the cost.
Are you going to scan every wall, ceiling and electrical outlet? This will take extra time. You then have to review and determine what you are viewing and then add this image to your report. This will take more time. Are you going to charge extra for it, or absorb it in the cost of the inspection? Are the Realtors and clients prepared for the extra time?
Home Inspections are supposed to be visual inspections of accessible areas.Having said all that, I can see the benefits for infrared testing or any other non-evasive testing, however for a typical home inspection, the cost would be difficult to justify.
If you can afford the equipment and use it for increasing your revenue by doing just electrical inspections, problem analysis or energy audits, the cost may be justified.
I offer these opinions not to dispute the advantage of predictive technologies, only to stimulate constructive thought. There could be an opportunity to expand the Home Inspection business, for when times are a little slow. At this time, I cannot justify the cost and will try to do the best visual inspection possible, providing the best cost for my clients.

PM: Well said.

[Ted Menelly]

1) There was no evidence of moisture present in visible light.

2) It's very difficult to reliably detect elevated moisture level via non-imaging thermal measurements alone at such locations as every exterior corner will be warmer or colder than the surrounding wall surfaces due to thermal bridging.

3) The "Wow" factor in that image was what convinced both the buyer and seller that a leak was present and persuaded the seller to remove the deck on the roof above to discover the source.

4) The buyer is a RE attorney - based on his experience, which is he going to recommend to his clients... the inspector with the IR camera, or the one without?

Now that is exactly what I am talking about. It could not have been more right on to the complaint I have. It is slowly being pushed into a must for home inspectors and not a side or other business. This lawyer that guides countless folks a year with their real estate purchase has now become an advocate that all home inspectors should not only own but use an IR camera in all inspections. Next it will become a state or SOP guideline in what a home inspector must use and now have to purchase. Did the attorney say that they must pay a large some to include the use of an IR camera as should be or just the fact that the home inspector own and use one.

Sorry. But I said this a long time ago about IR cameras. It has become the joke and burden to home inspectors to go spend another 5 grand, lets not forget about the freaking certification for a couple grand or your camera ain't worth crap, and of course the extra burden of time and liability. Then when it is in full use in an everyday home inspection then every square inch will have to be scanned and documented.

This always has been the goal of the marketers of the IR camera. This was the way for it to become the must use item in every home inspection.

Mike. Let me ask you this. What happens the next time you inspect a home and do not find a leak or see signs of it. Do you really think that you will get away with not finding a leak if someone knows you whipped it out at another home and found a leak. You are pretty much guarantied that you now have to use that camera at every home inspection.

It no longer matters that you saw a sign of a leak and then whipped it out free of charge. You used it you are now stuck with the liability and guess what......no charge because you did n at charge for its use at the last home.

Am I making way to much of this. Absolutely not. There has to be a stopping point of what a home inspection is as far as how far we must go. I am not talking about SOPs because SOPs no longer matter. You and countless others are making it the thing to do in every home inspection. You are forcing the hand for the industry. Let me ask you this also. How many inspections a year is your camera worth. No extra money and 5.... maybe 10 grand in camera cost and certification??????. What ever you paid you just knocked off 16 inspections a year at 300 per inspection when you drop that c amera and destroy it and now have to buy a new one.

I need to stop.

This is and and has been getting out of control.

This is the absolute perfect example on why you should not pull your camera out unless there is a fee involved for you knowledge, time, experience and equipment and liability.

Think about it before you bash back. I am sure this is not why you bought the camera. I am sure you bought it to buy into another entirely different type of business to add to your home inspection business as everyone else has.

[Michael Thomas]

ets not forget about the freaking certification for a couple grand or your camera ain't worth crap....

I took the Snell training because I wanted to be better at what I did. Not one client has asked - before or since - if I'm "certified" to use it.

[Bruce Breedlove]

Infrared space telescope launched from California (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BD4I020091214)



Mon Dec 14, 2009

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - NASA's new infrared space telescope was launched into orbit on Monday on a 10-month mission expected to reveal previously unseen objects ranging from near-Earth asteroids to some of the most distant galaxies in the cosmos.

The Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, or WISE, was carried into a polar orbit 326 miles above Earth by a Delta II rocket that lifted off before dawn from Vandenberg Air Force Base in central California.

"All systems are looking good, and we are on our way to seeing the entire sky better than ever before," said William Irace, the mission's project manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena.

The $320 million instrument is designed to scan the entire heavens for the infrared radiation, or glow of heat, given off by objects that are too cold, too far away or too shrouded in dust to be seen by conventional visible-light telescopes.

Scientists say the spacecraft's detectors are about 500 times more sensitive than those of the last infrared sky survey in 1983, and are capable of producing photograph-quality images of the objects they find.

. . .


By launching an infrared space telescope NASA has ruined it for every space agency. NASA could have launched a visible spectrum telescope but NOOOO! They had to pull out their infrared telescope without charging extra for it. Now all space agencies will be expected to launch infrared space telescopes, not simple, run-of-the-mill visible spectrum telescopes. :)

[bob smit]

Next best thing (at least for electrical inspections are concerned).
No contact laser therm imaging now on sale at Harbor Freight Tools.
item # 96451/91778 reg 59.99 sale 25.99
Remember my original post stated, "not necessarily a camera".
U might not be able to produce a photo, but these cheepies will at least allow U to report.
If this is all the sellers want to pay for......well, what he wants, he gets.
Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector

[Ted Menelly]

Infrared space telescope launched from California (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BD4I020091214)



By launching an infrared space telescope NASA has ruined it for every space agency. NASA could have launched a visible spectrum telescope but NOOOO! They had to pull out their infrared telescope without charging extra for it. Now all space agencies will be expected to launch infrared space telescopes, not simple, run-of-the-mill visible spectrum telescopes. :)


Now Bruce. I know you are an intelligent guy. I suggest you read my post again and then give the implications of what is happening some very serious thought. I am not talking bull. I am not spouting off some ignorant information. I am telling it like it is. You are bringing way to much into the home inspection realm. The liability will be 2 fold what it is for a home inspector. I am not going to go into my entire post but please have some enlightening thought as to what is happening. Don't just come back with some off the wall completely unrelated copy and paster info about seeing in outer space. You tell me what is going to happen to home inspection as it is now. You tell me where it finally ends. You tell me when the ultimate give away for knowledge and technology and time and liability comes to an end. You tell me what happens when someone gets pulled into court for not documenting the entire home with the camera and covering every square inch of the home and misses a leak or what not when you found concerns in the past 5 out of ten homes with your IR.

Are you going to hide behind your SOPs stating that is is an easily accessible inspection and does not require an IR camera when you use it all the time and find concerns. You only use the camera for this person and not that person. You inspected this home with the camera but not that. You scanned that suspect room but isn't the entire home suspect.

Please/ I am not trying to piss anyone off so please try to avoid doing that to me and read over all the posts and see the reality of where this is going.

The new technology give away. The way of things to come. The new age. The new wave. I have heard it all before and it does not change the facts.

Why don't you throw in a free lead test and a free termite inspection and report and a free radon inspection, why not an areal photo of the home and a free landscape plan for those homes with crappy planting beds. Throw in a free foundation report by pulling out your water level and graphing the entire home.

Doesn't that red paragraph sound utterly ridiculous ??????????????

Enough said. If that did not make my point then there is absolutely no need to go further because there is no hope. All those tools, schooling, expertise licensing, insurance for all and all that liability will all allow you to do a better job for your client. Are you going to give all of them away as well.

So you have an IR camera. So I guess now that has happened there is no getting to the reasoning part huh. Sold, hook, line and sinker and now the rest are going to have to pay for your poor thought out plan.

[Richard Soundy]

You are right Ted.

I use a Ferrari to get me to the inspection site. It is fast, saves driving time and is impressive, especially the hand crafted roof rack for my "Little Giant".

I am not making much of a profit, but hell why should I - that would mean paying taxes.....

Richard

[Ron Bibler]

Check this out...

Fluke Challenge (http://www.flukechallenge.com/)

Best

Ron

[Michael Thomas]

I have to say, being cast as the heavy in this movie is a bit of a shock - but I guess it shows how far I've come.

When I started in this business I quickly discovered that in home inspection - as everyplace else - "Life ain't fair".

The only way to get experience was to get jobs, but the best way to get jobs was to have experience.

I was in competition with established inspectors, some of whom I quickly discovered were less capable even than myself.

And some of them were members of an association that would not (perhaps not unreasonably) have me as a full member until I had 200 inspections under my belt.

My inspections took too long (still do), and it took me a too long to write my reports (still does), and one of the reasons was that I'd actually read the the state SOP, and was trying to comply with it, when some of the inspectors around me were using checklists that hadn't been updated for a decade and were not even minimally compliant.

I could not get business from most RE agents if I attempted to do the job I felt I should, but business from agents is on of the few productive sort of marketing for new inspector to do.

It really was (and still is) a very tough business - especially in this economy - and a lot of the reasons were just, well, "unfair".

But... "Watcha' ya' gonna' do?"

So I plugged on ahead, and tried (and continue to try) to learn how to do a better and better job, and do a better job of marketing myself.

And somehow it seems I'm now the person who is being unfair: I've gone and got myself this gosh darn infrared camera, and I learned how to use it, and I'm finding leaks that inspector without the camera simply doesn't find, and my clients seem to like that - and because of that other inspectors are apparently starting to feel a need to do the same.

So - and this is a shock to me - I'm now the guy who has the experience and the skill that's marketable, and that makes me a threat to other inspectors, especially to other experienced inspectors who don't want or can't afford to purchase, learn and market technology and new skills.

And man, I do understand that - that's exactly the way felt the first few years in the business - struggling against "unfair odds".

But that's unfortunately how life is.

[Ted Menelly]

I respect your decisions in the marketing business.

Where does it stop Mike.

Why don't you throw in a free lead test and a free termite inspection and report and a free radon inspection, why not an areal photo of the home and a free landscape plan for those homes with crappy planting beds. Throw in a free foundation report by pulling out your water level and graphing the entire home.

Still sounds pretty silly huh.


Market up your business. Get paid for your large investment and experience and training. I understand where you are coming from about the beginning of your inspection career because I saw in your past post on this forum what field you came from and could not get an edge over the other in inspectors. Now to combat the beginning years you went out and paid a large some for a camera and for your training only to give it away to have that competitive edge for your (no insult intended) lack of background in the construction trades.

I moved to Texas 5 years ago. I got everyone of my inspections to life's past experiences and knowledge in the field.

Today I am almost starting over again with the down economy and every other inspector giving everything away that does not have to do with a "Home Inspection"

Advantage ??????????????? Very questionable. Free giveaways to everyone ?????? Completely beyond me as to why everyone is in such a big rush to destroy their future in home inspection by getting everyone aware that there are inspectors out there that give everything away.

Mark my words. That camera, unless used with extreme caution, with out the marketing of your advantage over the other inspector (again, Don't use it once and miss something it will cost you more than you have gained by buying it and using it).

Market your advantage with the camera (which you have) and you have now made it a permanent liability. You now must use it, document everything and never misread or miss anything with it. If pictures are not taken of your scans throughout the entire home in every room, walls, floors and ceilings, and something is found after they move in (such as a remodel and water damage found etc) you will be paying for it. Even mild marketing with the camera is telling folks that you will find everything no matter what you may have in your contract.

You better be scanning every square inch of every wall and ceiling and leave absolutely nothing to chance. Read everything perfectly with that camera and never miss anything.

By marketing that camera you are saying that you are better than your fellow inspector. That is why they hired you. It covers the entire inspection. You will be held to a higher standard.

Your recovery for the cost involved by not charging for it will never be recovered. One miss and you go backwards ten fold.

I hope it does well for you.

I have to repeat Mike and this is nothing directly to you and no insult intended I am just telling you the facts. The race is on with all inspectors to give away everything to gain inspections. No one is marketing themselves anymore but there free giveaways.

I cannot tell you of the folks in DFW that are giving it all away and now the only thing they can do is cut prices by a third and still give it all away. It is coming your way Mike. I used to be able to fight low prices even with give aways. Now it is low (very low) prices and even more give aways. The 2 are extremely difficult to over come.

I ask you. What do you mean by unwilling to learn and buy and market new technologies so you can be better than the folks you use to have to battle for work. Now you give what you have learned and bought away to combat competition. I do not feel in the slightest that that is moving forward.

I repeat what I said above.

Why don't you throw in a free lead test and a free termite inspection and report and a free radon inspection, why not an areal photo of the home and a free landscape plan for those homes with crappy planting beds. Throw in a free foundation report by pulling out your water level and graphing the entire home.

It keeps sounding even sillier every time I post it.


That is what it has come to around here and I repeat, It is coming your way. You have opened the flood gates and the erosion caused by the flood makes it impossible to stop the flood. The water is getting deeper. Soon you will learn (maybe you will retire, for the second time by then and not have to worry about it) that giving it away is not moving ahead. It is taking a step back. What next after everyone has rock bottom prices and is giving it all away ? A free coupon for a complete brake job. Now that would be great marketing and an advantage over the competition because you can afford to do so.

Now that sounded real silly, huh, but that is what it is coming to.

Free warranties. Free IR camera scans, Free termite inspection. Free groceries coupons. Free lead paint test (or mold test). Free foundation analysis.

That list is what many offer around here. No joke. True story. I have posted a couple folks in the past. All of that is thrown in between 200.00 to 250. from anywhere of 3000 to 3500 square feet. No up charge for nasty old crawls. Is that what you want.

Now it does not sound like I am just being a complaining pain in the ass, huh.

Charge what you will but if you are not marketing for at least a slight up charge (should be far more than slight) over real competition then you are not one up on your competition. You are marketing and getting work for the give away. Yes, a nice give away but still a give away. That is not moving forward to the future.

If you have a working wife or second income then there is no reason to give it all away. Not that there would ever be a good reason for that.

I know I inserted your name in this post Mike, and I apologize for that, but I was not just attacking you. I am attacking all the folks near me or anywhere that dropped their prices lower than the bottom and give everything away and I am sitting here trying to think of a good marketing plan that will not be a give away marketing plan to combat these folks.


Sorry for the rant but I am so tired of completely changing strategies to combat this crap. I am not afraid to admit but I do hate to admit that the give away everything boys are truly destroying business and the profession and I am tired of so many days off do to the utter madness.

[Richard Soundy]

Michael, I hear what you say, since I too have been through the same scenario. You have selected a business model (property inspections tied to RE transactions) that is not the easiest one in the world. It is a business that is easy on the entry side but real tough to grow profitably. Basically, since the only real asset you bring to the table is your knowledge and such businesses cannot grow by just adding or employing people - once you train your staff they can easily become the competition. There are many types of business models that fall in this category - yes, it may appear to be unfair but it is what it is.

I am relatively sure you entered into this line of business to make a reasonable living with some profit behind it to take care of swings in market cycles. Having said this, a quick analysis of the costs and expenses versus potential income (your speed and energy being the key factor in capturing these dollars at a base price predefined by both customer and the RE transaction) tells you quite a bit. It tells me that my highest investment should go into knowledge, followed by marketing and the rest such as tools, software etc... which would best be served by getting the bare essentials to achieve the job function. Now, both marketing as well as these bare essentials are being defined by outsiders (not me, they do not care about profits or a basic living for that matter). Your observation also included reporting software, it continually gets bigger and better (and more expensive to purchase and maintain) driven by standards set by the RE industry - has this same industry allowed us to increase prices. Answer - NO!

Another matter effecting our business, both in expenses (insurance) and the forever looming legality "make-or-break" occurrence - "the risk factor". We are fully exposed with what I perceive as the least effective protection.

I believe our SOPS are there to level the playing field, an attempt to define our own practices (not someone else outside of our industry) with a certain amount of added liability protection in addition to making it a "fair" process for all inspectors. IMO a Standard Basic Report would also assist in this endeavor - plain old word processing no "fancy dancy" report system.

Michael I do not put down IR Imaging as a tool - I fully believe in IR and know the "risks" associated with same. It is just not a good decision to include it in the Home Inspection business. We should ALL be working towards simplifying our business and increasing our fees to compensate our already high expenses. We should not be complicating our inspections and increasing our costs!

Experience and knowledge is important - give it some thought.

Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome so do not think the reply's are meant to put you down.

Best regards - Richard

[Michael Thomas]

1) My contract is quite specific about the limitations of my use of infrared at home inspections, and also about the limitations of infrared inspections in general, for example the fact that when used to detect moisture intrusion they are highly dependent on the weather in the days preceding the inspection. Infrared is used at my inspections as an adjunct to visual inspection, in the same way that I use a conventional moisture meter. IMO, many of the concerns expressed here about the possible liability implications of IR inspections apply with equal or greater strength to the use of any technique other than the naked eye - it's possible I will get sued, but if so the overwhelming likelihood is that I'm going to be getting sued by the kind of people would have been suing in either case.

2) In my market I'm faced with intense competition from inspectors considerably less expensive than myself. I'm constantly looking for ways to differentiate myself from these inspectors, IR is just one of many - in fact if anything I make only modest use of it for marketing, one of the things I'm doing in (1) above is to make people aware that it is just one of many tools in my toolbox, with its own strengths and limitations, and one of the reasons I'm doing that is precisely because I want to control their expectations about what IR can and can't do at a home inspection.

3) As for stripping the business down to its essentials, I know a very experienced inspector has recently left the business - his complaint was that the clients increasingly expected him to talk to them, and they were increasingly skeptical of his four and five page checklist carbon copy reports.

Now, this man was an excellent inspector, and in some areas he had an experience base which I will never match. I'm far from certain that for the majority of his clients his reporting technique was any less useful in my own - it's the big things, after all, that our clients are most concerned about.

But the fact is, this man was a dinosaur in a market where his clients expectations are being raised by a variety of factors, of which things like HGTV are probably a lot more influential than the marketing efforts of other inspectors. He was used in knocking out two or three 2-3 hour inspections (including his report) a day for $250 each. I'd be happy to be making a reliable $750 a day average over a five day work week, but in my market - given the time I feel is required for an adequate inspection and report - it's not going to happen unless I can convince my clients that basic home inspection is worth $525. IR is one of the things that help me do that. My competition is trying to knock out those $250 inspections in a marketing environment where three-hour+ inspection and 20+ page report with a substantial number of digital pictures is is increasingly becoming a minimum. When I look at this I see a business model which is higher liability (because of higher volume and more pressure to do twice as much in 25% more time) and much more frustrating than my own.

4) Finally, I find the almost overwhelming concern of some other inspectors with liability issues somewhat mysterious.

Assuming a reasonable level of competence, a reasonably well thought out and structured inspection protocol, and good reporting practices everything I've read indicates that the likelihood of a lawsuit is pretty much a numbers game. It's also my opinion- completely subjective - that the likelihood of getting sued also to some extent reflects the kind of rapport you're able to create with your client.

My approach is to attempt a high quality inspection and report, follow-up proactively after each inspection to determine if there are any concerns, address any concerns immediately, then pay my E&O accept the fact that sooner or later I'm going to get sued whether I "deserve" it or not. I've reached this conclusion after talking to inspectors who have been sued, and it appears to me that almost all lawsuits against home inspectors happen for one of three reasons: 1) you really screwed up , 2) a "shotgun" suit, or 3) you are dealing with people who are basically crooks, and are going to sue you whether you screw up or not. (You'll notice I didn't mention contracts, I've got a good one, but I assume that by the time I get before a judge to decide to what extent it may protect me, I've already incurred significant expense).

So while I take it liability issues very seriously, I don't let them run my business, or prevent me from getting either a moisture meter or the IR camera out of the bag when some visually observed phenomena or potentially defective construction feature suggests to me that moisture intrusion may be present.

Your mileage - and the conditions in your market and your own priorities - may vary.

-------

BTW, I had extensive construction and contracting experience when entered the business.

[A.D. Miller]

BTW, I had extensive construction and contracting experience when entered the business.

MT: Which of those experiences prompted you to purchase a Segway?:D

[Michael Thomas]

And while I understand it, I'm not much attracted to the idea that the solution to our marketing and liability difficulties is to legislate everyone down to the same minimum level of performance.

[Michael Thomas]

MT: Which of those experiences prompted you to purchase a Segway?:D

Amazon. Check out my review and customer image, it makes it so much easier to use my Steering Wheel Laptop Desk (http://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Office-WM-01-Laptop-Steering/dp/B000IZGIA8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1260912836&sr=8-1-catcorr) after 5PM on Fridays.

[Richard Soundy]

MT - I have been fully involved in IR for well over 13 years (both single point, scanners and cameras) and I can assure you that IR Imagery especially in the aspect of "moisture" is a SURE way to get sued. I have seen it again and again. We, instructed all our employees to immediately dispel any thoughts from customers or potential customers that IR can see behind surfaces and or it can be used to detect moisture in any form. This advice was from our legal department backed by the science.

You may right off my background and experience as BS - there is nothing I can say or do to be of any assistance to you.

I know that other experienced inspectors also see the continual requirements been forced upon us to do more and more for an average inspection can only increase your "risk" factor. I agree with this because it only provides more ammunition in this already high litigious business. But, it is the IR Moisture application that will get you in trouble sooner or later. But, do not worry I am sure you can sue SNELL for the damages they caused you......

All the best - RS

[Ron Bibler]

MT - I have been fully involved in IR for well over 13 years (both single point, scanners and cameras) and I can assure you that IR Imagery especially in the aspect of "moisture" is a SURE way to get sued. I have seen it again and again. We, instructed all our employees to immediately dispel any thoughts from customers or potential customers that IR can see behind surfaces and or it can be used to detect moisture in any form. This advice was from our legal department backed by the science.

You may right off my background and experience as BS - there is nothing I can say or do to be of any assistance to you.

I know that other experienced inspectors also see the continual requirements been forced upon us to do more and more for an average inspection can only increase your "risk" factor. I agree with this because it only provides more ammunition in this already high litigious business. But, it is the IR Moisture application that will get you in trouble sooner or later. But, do not worry I am sure you can sue SNELL for the damages they caused you......

All the best - RS

Randy... Please provide support for your statements...

Best

Ron

[Raymond Wand]

Mike Holmes says every home inspector should have an IR camera. His is a $30K model and I don't even think he is certified to use it fwiw.

[Michael Thomas]

We, instructed all our employees to immediately dispel any thoughts from customers or potential customers that IR can see behind surfaces and or it can be used to detect moisture in any form.


Makes sense to me - I go to considerable lengths make to clear to clients that IR imaging does not allow me "to see inside or behind walls", and that it does not allow me to "detect moisture or water" - that all it does is sometimes allow me to observe patterns of temperature difference that may lead me to suspect the presence of possible differences in moisture levels at a surface, which must then be confirmed or eliminated as location of elevated moisture by direct readings with a moisture meter.

In fact, my clients sign a rider to my contract - written non-technical English - which specifically advises them of these and a number of other significant limitations of IR technology as employed at home inspections. Of course they can still sue me - but they will have a very difficult time demonstrating that I misrepresented the capabilities of IR imaging at a home inspection.

And in the meantime, I frequently discover instances of water intrusion that certainly would otherwise have had the potential to come back and bite me at a later date.

I know that you've had 13 years experience in the IR industry, and I take your warning - and other similar warnings - very seriously.

But if you've been home inspection business a few years, you'll also remember similar dire pronouncements from some quarters about the extreme liability hazards of digital photography as it increasingly enabled us to geratly increase our photographic documentations of our inspection , and I'm sure they're going to be repeated in the next few years as the portable digital radar systems allowing us to image structural, plumbing, and electrical defects below finished surfaces become available.

Meanwhile, most of us learned how to use digital photography to reduce our liability, for example by taking a standardized set of photographs to which we can then refer when writing our reports to double-check our observations and fill in details that were not recorded at the time, or to come here and get second and third opinions on questions about which we are uncertain - I know that at least every few inspections I have to go back and and recheck some detail or extract some additional information, and I'll bet that most other people here if they're being honest with themselves would say the same - and every one of those instances is an instance when I'm reducing potential liability.

One thing I do absolutely agree with: we must find ways to get paid appropriately for the use of this technology - but I don't think that turning our backs on it either because of acquisition costs or liability concerns is the solution.

[Michael Thomas]

And there's also this: where is this tasumi of litigation ?

We now have several thousand home inspectors using such technology, do we have any evidence that any home inspector has ever been sued for the negligent use of infrared technology at a home inspection?

Is there any objective evidence that the use of infrared technology home inspections is actually "a SURE way to get sued"?

If anybody ought to know if this is real concern , it's E&O carriers - I get e-mail from FREA requesting that I put specific language related to "Chinese drywall" in my contract, but I'm not getting e-mails about any aspect of infrared inspection.

Paging Ben Garrison (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/members/ben-garrison.html) : is this an issue of concern to FREA?

Or, if such increased risk does exist, do we know if risk is offset - or even more than offset - by a reduction of risk from the use of such technology?

Because I know from personal experience that such technology used in conjunction with conventional moisture meters and other methods is regularly allowing me to detect moisture intrusion I would not otherwise have discovered, problems that I know from experience will result in calls from clients the next time there is an exceptionally heavy rain if I have not discovered and reported evidence of previous water intrusion, and presumably each such discovery reduces my potential liability for having (in my clients eyes) "overlooked" evidence of previous problems. (Ignorance is not bliss in our business.)

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm not arguing that such use is not a significant potential liability - but I am going to be highly skeptical it is until I see some kind of objective evidence that this is the case.

[Michael Thomas]

BTW, I think this is a great discussion, and it's both motivating and assisting me in thinking through how to better present the limitations of IR technologies to clients in an even more unambiguous manner.

[Ted Menelly]

And there's also this: where is this tasumi of litigation ?

We now have several thousand home inspectors using such technology, do we have any evidence that any home inspector has ever been sued for the negligent use of infrared technology at a home inspection?

Is there any objective evidence that use infrared technology home inspections is actually "a SURE way to get sued"?

If anybody ought to know if this is real concern , it's IMO carriers - I get e-mail from FREA requesting that I put specific language related "Chinese drywall" in my contract, but I'm not getting e-mails about any aspect of infrared inspection.

Paging Ben Garrison (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/members/ben-garrison.html) : is this an issue of concern to FREA?

Or, if such increased risk does exist, do we know if risk is offset - or even more than offset - by a reduction of risk from the use of such technology?

Because I know from personal experience that such technology used in conjunction with conventional moisture meters and other methods is regularly allowing me to detect moisture intrusion I would not otherwise have discovered, and presumably reducing my potential liability each time I do so.

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm not arguing that such use is not a potential liability - but I am going to be highly skeptical it is until I see some kind of objective evidence that this is the case.


It's only one tiny point to this Mike and I apologies for keeping this going but you continually make points on why you think it is a great idea to keep expanding the home inspection business.

For some unknown reason you keep looking right past, and around and under and over the real point here.

Why don't you throw in a free lead test and a free termite inspection and report and a free radon inspection, why not an areal photo of the home and a free landscape plan for those homes with crappy planting beds. Throw in a free foundation report by pulling out your water level and graphing the entire home.

Now that for the 3rd, 4rth 5th it time sounds really, really, really silly and continues to get even sillier. You can add all the justification you want for adding yet another service to home inspections but it still does not answer the question.

When is enough, enough and where does the line get drawn. The example you use for a couple hundred inspectors already having them brings it closer and closer to the point that everyone Will, very soon, must have and use one as part of a home inspection. Then what will you do ??? Add yet another service and then another. The ball is in your court.

Where does it end. Will it become like DFW has become. Cheaper and cheaper and cheaper inspections because they have already added all the services and have no place else to go.

I know you are seeing this and hearing this. I know you know I am not just blowing some invisible smoke. It is all real. Not made up and going further in the direction mentioned.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Energy auditing or commercial scans or specialised home scans (wait, isn't that an act of energy audits)

Next question. I have used a lot of different IR Cameras. I see absolutely no need for paying over 5 grand for an IR camera for energy audits. All that I have used (high priced and low priced) pointed to the least or almost the least expensive cameras to still do the exact same job. One that I just looked at is only 3 grand and I have used it. It brings out exactly what is needed. Am I missing something in all this IR camera scanning for a home or is it just nicer to hold a $10,000.00 camera in your hand. Is it like driving a car with a $10,000.00 paint job on a car compared to 2 to 3 grand, it is not going to give you anymore performance.

This is the one I just recently used


FLIR i40: High-Temperature Infrared Thermal Imaging Camera

Built-in 0.6 Megapixel Digital Camera and Picture-In-Picture function

Features:


Lightweight (1.3lbs), manual focus camera with 3.5" LCD display and easy one-handed operation
Wide temperature range: -4°F to 662°F (-20°C to 350°C)
Focal Plane Array detector with 120 x 120 pixels image resolution (14,400 pixels)
Built-in 0.6 Megapixel visible light digital camera with LED lamps
Fixed-size Picture-In-Picture (PIP) fusion function
0.1°C @ 25°C Thermal Sensitivity provides the resolution needed to find problems faster and easier
Thumbnail Image Gallery function allows quick search of stored images
MicroSD Card slot for image storage (1GB card stores up to 1,000 Radiometric JPEG images)
Complete with 1GB microSD card, miniSD adaptor, rechargeable battery, power supply, USB cable, lens cap and carrying case
Includes QuickReport (mhtml:{BD2BC3F8-FD89-4501-9EA2-78782864A32B}mid://00000314/!x-usc:http://www.flir.com/thermography/eurasia/en/content/?id=11368)™ software for analysis of radiometric images
2-Year Warranty

[Michael Thomas]

I use the original Fluke TiR. At the time I bought it, it was one of the two obvious "entry level" cameras.

IMO, it's adequate for HI work, and the only reason I would anticipate replacing it would be if it breaks.

The two major enhancements I would like to see on the Flukes are a laser pointer and dedicated buttons to quick access to the auto/manual and PIP toggles.

As I understand it, neither is present on the new models.

[Richard Soundy]

MT this discussion has sure been dragged out with many views. It is always interesting (and at times amusing) to read the different points.

Looking at IR cameras from a business (HI) point-of-view, I have also noted the new prices ~$2900 for Flukes entry level camera. Now, this price is getting closer than ever to being an affordable tool in our arsenal to locate potentail problems in our profession/trade. That price was always our target price in 1998 and things went a little ascew when Fluke bought the company to be then immediately bought out by Danaher (big fish eat little fish etc....). Strangely enough that was the second time I have been involved with a buy-out by Fluke.

I have always taken approximately 100 pictures during a standard residential inspection for my purposes only and it is not part of my report. I share some of these pictures with my client in the all important "consultation with client" part of the inspection. At least 30% of my time and efforts go into the "consultation" IMO that is what I am being paid for - the rest is purely to satisfy the RE industry (and in this matter I stick closely to the SOP's which you know is minimal).

Regarding the litigation matter, I am not aware of any HI case on a residential building. But, knowing how lawyers are, the big commercial cases (mostly roofing tare-off's on large manufacturing/industrial/warehouse buildings) will quickly lead them to the current highly litigated RE industry as it applies to residential market. So, it is highly likely that we will soon see cases in this area. Like hound dogs they sniff $$$'s!

All the best - Richard S.

[A.D. Miller]

all it does is sometimes allow me to observe patterns of temperature difference

MT: Sort of like a deluded individual wandering around aimlessly in circles looking for drafts?


In fact, my clients sign a rider to my contract - written non-technical English - which specifically advises them of these and a number of other significant limitations of IR technology as employed at home inspections.

MT: So then, let me get this straight. You spend multiple thousands of dollars on a whizzbang and training so that your bang doesn't go whizz; you then spend time and money promoting the capabilities of the whizzbang; then you have your clients sign something that indicates they understand that the whizzbang really doesn't do all that much, you are not doing much with it, and that they cannot expect much out of its use?


Of course they can still sue me

MT: And, after being bull$hitted by you to the nth degree, they should.


I frequently discover instances of water intrusion

MT: Didn't you just say you couldn't do that?


you'll also remember similar dire pronouncements from some quarters about the extreme liability hazards of digital photography

MT: Some of those issues were real until the courts began to understand the science behind it.


One thing I do absolutely agree with: we must find ways to get paid appropriately for the use of this technology

MT: Yep, and when you do, you'll let us know, right?

[Michael Thomas]

I find lots of water intrusion I would miss without IR, but not because I'm "able to see through or behind walls" or beacuse "I observe the presence of moisture or water".

Oddly, considering the difficult some here seems to have with these concepts, my clients seem to have no difficulty either understanding the limitations of what I do or appreciating the additional value IR brings to my inspections.

-------------

To address an issue mentioned below:

1) WDI - Nope. Separately licensed in my state. I let the WDI guy plck up both the fee and the liability for that one.

2) Radon - Nope. I canl't compete on cost with RDS, and don't want to spend the time for a second trip to pick up the equipment in any case. RDS slightly disconts their service to HIs, and I make a small profit for booking their inspection for my client.

3) Mold testing - Nope. I don't believe in charging for a service that provides little if any value to my client.

4) Level II - Nope. At 62, I'm no longer want to HAVE to get on the roof to do the job properly irrespective of slope or condition. If I was 22, though, ,this is likely a service I would provide. (And, yes, I can still handle the 32' ladder, and I still try to get only every roof I feel can be accessed safely)

[Cobra Cook]

Why would you pay thousands for a tool and cerifications and not expect to be paid extra for it? since home inspections are at a moment of time visual non evasive inspections and then you get paid a small fee for the service provided? Does the realtor standing there with their arms folded , patting their feet hoping you would hurry up and finish and get the hell out so they can go home and start thinking about how they can spend the thousands they will make on the commission they make or do there service for free also? I got certified in mold and air quality because while i was inspecting homes i would see signs of it and although i could not call it mold i would suggest further review by some one who could. Now that is me but, i do not give that service away free. I would not offer to test or spray for free, why would you? Don't cut your self short. I want an ir camera bad so i can sell another service and hopfully make more money too:rolleyes: !

[A.D. Miller]

Nope. I don't believe in charging for a service that provides little if any value to my client.


MT: And therein lies the rub with IR cameras used in conjunction with home inspections.:D

[Michael Thomas]

Whatever.

[A.D. Miller]

Why would you pay thousands for a tool and cerifications

CC: I give up . . .why?:D

[Patrick McCaffery]

Jeff asked a simple question, "is an IR camera a toy or money maker". We have all expressed our opinions. There are pros and cons for using IR technology. Now it becomes a personal decision for each home inspector.

[Cobra Cook]

Well spoken:) The only answer to his question that can be is of course, how you decide to use it

[Michael Thomas]

I can't remember which brand of IR Thermometer has a "laser pointer" that "brackets" the sensing area with a circle of dots instead of just a single spot in the middle of the area.

Anyone know which brand this is?

- Thanks

[Jerry Peck]

I remember seeing those, just can't remember the manufacturer as yet. :(

[A.D. Miller]

I can't remember which brand of IR Thermometer has a "laser pointer" that "brackets" the sensing area with a circle of dots instead of just a single spot in the middle of the area.

Anyone know which brand this is?

- Thanks

Like this?

HumboldtMFG Search - 3597a (http://www.humboldtmfg.com/search.php?query=3597a&x=0&y=0)

[A.D. Miller]

Or this?

ThermoWorks IR-Pro — Professional Infrared Thermometer (http://www.thermoworks.com/products/ir/irpro.html)

[Michael Thomas]

Thanks, but I'm looking for the one that projects a circle of dots>

It's one of the major manufacturers, holds the patent on the pattern, I just can't remember who it is.

[Michael Thomas]

A much higher end unit using this type of pattern:

http://www.newportelect.com/products/images/OS530XS.gif

[A.D. Miller]

A much higher end unit using this type of pattern:



Portable Infrared thermometer with crosshair laser - Seacom Process Instruments (http://www.seacom.com.my/showprod.asp?prodID=2151)

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/2437646_6250_ENG_B_W.PDF

Nope, here it is:

Infrared Thermometer (http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/infraredthermometer.html)

[Michael Thomas]

OK, we are getting close - there is a circle dot 30:1 pistol grip unit for around $220, that's the one I'm looking for...

[A.D. Miller]

OK, we are getting close - there is a circle dot 30:1 pistol grip unit for around $220, that's the one I'm looking for...

MT: Truly hard to please:

Wireless Infrared Thermometer (http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OS-DT8855W&Nav=dask01)

This one looks like yours:

MODEL OS530E Series - Handheld Infrared Series with Built-In Dot/Circle Laser Sighting Thermocouple Input & Close Focus Models (http://www.newportelect.com/Products/Infrared/OS530E.htm)

[Jerry Peck]

OK, we are getting close - there is a circle dot 30:1 pistol grip unit for around $220, that's the one I'm looking for...

That's the one I remember seeing, just can't remember the manufacturer of it. Almost think it may have been a Raytek unit, not sure though (Raytek is now part of Fluke).

Professional Equipment used to carry it. I played with it at one of the FABI meetings they came to a number of years ago.

[Michael Thomas]

Thanks!

[Richard Soundy]

MT, the original unit was a Raytek MX Series (designed & manufactured in Raytek German facilities)
30:1 SD released ~ 1997

Due to a patent infringement (Omega if I recall correctly) it could not be sold in the USA.

Not sure how Fluke/Danaher handled it after the legal suite!

Regards - Richard

[Jerry Peck]

MT, the original unit was a Raytek MX Series (designed & manufactured in Raytek German facilities)
30:1 SD released ~ 1997

Found some on a Google search, but they may no longer be available, also, the one I remember was not quite as complex - either that or I am just remembering wrong.

Raytek MX IR Thermometers (http://www.reliabilitydirect.com/tempproducts/RAY-mx.htm)

raytek infrared thermometer (http://www.geneq.com/catalog/en/raytek_mx_infra.html)

Raytek MX4+NI High Performance Infrared Thermometer (http://www.process-controls.com/Alpha/Raytek_mxni_series.html)

[Dana Bostick]

AD, change the batteries in your calculator please, 200x5=1,000x5=$5,000.00 in five years:cool: It is clear that you do not wish to get involved with the IR technology and there is nothing wrong at all with that, it is just another way to make a few bucks. But wow Bob, only five dollars to pull it out? How puch extra to put it in?:D
Not every tool i buy is to recover the actual cost over a specific period of time but mostly to make what i do easier. I guess if a camera would cut just a half hour off of each inspection at my hourly rate of what i charge for other services i perform, is $65.00, then eventually it will pay for its self. No matter i will be able to take on maybe another inspection or other service in the same day or i could be just be home basking the the hot tub and smoking another Habana Made in Habana,Cuba "ROMEO JULIETA"s I purchased on my last trip to the Carribean. Either way it could be a win win situation.

My camera pays it's freight every month with ONE inspection. After that, it's all GRAVY!:D

[Dana Bostick]

Next best thing (at least for electrical inspections are concerned).
No contact laser therm imaging now on sale at Harbor Freight Tools.
item # 96451/91778 reg 59.99 sale 25.99
Remember my original post stated, "not necessarily a camera".
U might not be able to produce a photo, but these cheepies will at least allow U to report.
If this is all the sellers want to pay for......well, what he wants, he gets.
Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector

Accuracy guaranteed to +/- 30 degrees at 3 inches!:rolleyes:

[David Argabright]

For me and I suspect most inspectors, it's more of a curiosity than a money maker.

[Michael Thomas]

OK, found a "reasonably priced" Omega with the "circle dot pointer":

http://www.omega.com/Temperature/pdf/OS423-LS.pdf

30:1 $199.00

Low Cost Infrared Thermometer (http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OS423-LS)

50:1 $259.00

Infrared Thermometer with 50:1 Field of View (http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=os425-ls)

[Nick Ostrowski]

I haven't gotten one request for or inquiry about thermal imaging for an inspection since the cameras came out. Not one. Of the two inspectors I know that have the cameras around here, one said he uses it on every inspection at no additional cost and the other said he wanted to sell his.

If there is a market for IR in my area, I haven't heard about it. People around here like the idea of extra tests, inspections, or services until they are told how much those extras will cost.

[A.D. Miller]

I haven't gotten one request for or inquiry about thermal imaging for an inspection since the cameras came out. Not one. Of the two inspectors I know that have the cameras around here, one said he uses it on every inspection at no additional cost and the other said he wanted to sell his.

If there is a market for IR in my area, I haven't heard about it. People around here like the idea of extra tests, inspections, or services until they are told how much those extras will cost.

NO: Same down here.

[Dan Harris]

This discussion came up with 5 or 6 guys at IW. Three were from AZ.
Despite all the certifications, fancy websites, not one saw any demand on the residental side for IR inspections..
A couple of the guys were thinking about giving up, and selling the cameras.

[Raymond Wand]

Same up here. Not one of my clients has inquired about IR service.

[Dana Bostick]

I vote money maker!
Since the rain started here in California, I've done 4 IR moisture leak jobs in the last 4 days and have three more scheduled today At $300 a pop, I would say I'm making money with my "toy". This is in addition to my regular HI work and FHA Compliance inspections.
Dana

[United Infrared]

Same up here. Not one of my clients has inquired about IR service.

Everyone needs to remember that it is not the Residential side that will be asking for this stuff from a home inspector. The only marketable solution with IR for a home inspector "that is with a Realtor" is the Moisture Side. The realtor is not interested in complicating the sale however when it comes to mold, they like the idea that IR can help map the moisture to the source without creating the negative conotation about mold. FYI: It is raining pretty good here in California lately, my home inspector phone line (14 yrs in the business) is not ringing for moisture surveys however my personal IR business phone is with all kinds of calls for leak detections. Mold inspections commonly identify the mold type, moisture testing (ir) identify the cause (obviously with your brain involved). FYI: I have not had a case for moisture that I havenot been able to solve....I am sure it will happen but not yet. Home Inspectors are ideal candidates for IR as they already know the house, the IR camera gives you more information but obviously the biggest tool is your brain.

One thing you have to consider is not the home inspection business but rather the world of infrared. Since most home inspectors have found that with a down economy comes slower real estate sales, diversification might help. Here is a link to a paper I wrote on Diversification: http://www.unitedinfrared.com/downloads/files/2009-041_Hopkins.pdf

So in summary, I do not recommend adding IR to your home inspection business. The true opportunity for money is in opening up a new business. Your new IR business can feed off your home inspection work and open up new stuff....like horses for example...Believe it or not, our equine course class is about 75% home inspectors.

Much of ASHI leadership was in attendance at IW in Vegas and much interest was expressed in IR. Here is a link to a video interview from Kurt Soloman (President Elect ASHI) United Infrared – Blog – ASHI 2010 Inspection World Las Vegas (http://www.blog.unitedinfrared.com/?p=45) click play on ASHI 2010 Inspection World Las Vegas

[Jason Kaylor]

To add to what Peter just stated, I think IR marketing is drastically different than the standard marketing used in an HI business. IR marketing is actually pretty different than any marketing used in most businessess. If any of you guys are familiar, or have worked in, any high tech industry (especially software and services) you will know the marketing is more about education of the customer rather than just getting your name out to the masses.

Here is a couple of examples of what I would consider good and bad IR marketing.

Bad: Marketing to realitors. As Peter already stated, realitors do not want to complicate the sale. And although this might be one of the best marketing tools in your HI business, it might be a dead end for an IR business. In my experience I have found HI's that dedicate most of their IR marketing to this channel find IR to be a waist of money and time. Other channels that work well for HI's that do not work well for IR would be yellowpages, web, flyers, etc. You cannot educate your customer as to the "why" for IR by those means very well.

Good: Educating a group or single commercial building owner(s) or organization, on why doing semi annual (quarterly even better for them and your revenue) IR inspections on their electrical panels can highly lower their risk for electrical fires. Another avenue in the same area would be the insurance companies that cover those fires when they happen. Once again you are not just going to throw up a website or send out fliers to these customers to simply scoop up the work.

Best: Word of mouth. This is obviously the best type of marketing for either business. But just like when you started up your HI business the word of mouth just didn't flow in, it will be the same in IR. You have to be able to educate your potential customers (even the ones that don't do it might give you word of mouth business) as to the "why", and then perform quality inspections, produce informative reports and show where you saved the customer money, resources, etc (value).

Even though this type of marketing is more time consuming and you really have to think out of the box, it is very rewarding (revenue). Do you guys think you will be against someone else that is offering the "inspection" for $99 or $149? I highly doubt it, and because of that, once you educate the potential customer on the "why" then you can set your price where you want it.

This is also where the higher end training, that many say is too expensive, comes in to play. If you are not fully educated yourself, how are you going to educate your customer? Sure you can pick up a camera for under $4k these days, and even get training for $500, or even free online training (very basic stuff), and you are now in the IR business. I find those are the people that are selling their cameras on ebay inside of 6 months. On the flip side I know inspectors that now make more money than they ever did in the HI business, and don't even really do HI's anymore. Those are the guys that bought a camera that covers most applications, and they went out and spent the money on good training and continue to add to that training.

JJ

[Dana Bostick]

I agree Jason,
Most of my work comes from my two websites dedicated to IR and search results from them. Promotion is about education of the potential clients of the benefits of using my services. Posting to Forums like this one, blogging and word of mouth generate the rest. Realtors don't want to hear about it.
Dana

[Jerry Peck]

What I found worked, and worked very well (keeping in mind that this was about 5 years ago) was to break out and actually use my infrared camera on every inspection.

I was it for insulation, structural uses, and, to a much lesser extent, moisture issues. I believe most HIs today have reversed that order and are trying to sell it for moisture issues and basically ignore all the other issues they are good for, and, they do not break it out and use it on every inspection.

If you want your name to be spread around and you and your inspections to be talked about, you have to give your clients something to talk about, and that is not "Oh, by the way, my home inspector did have in infrared camera, whatever that is and whatever it is used for, but he/she never used it so I don't even know what it looks like." That does not do you any good.

Instead, you want your clients telling all their friends and people they meet "You should have seen that camera my home inspector used, I don't remember what it was called, but he used it to show me all the insulation which was missing - I could really see it, and then there was ... (as they go on and on about all the other things their home inspector should them, and let them look at in the camera) ... YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST CALL ... (and there is your name and information being given out) ... you really should not call anyone else."

When THEY *SEE* what the infrared camera can show THEM, and THEY *SEE* their inspector using it ... THAT is what THEY TALK ABOUT.

None of this 'I have this neat camera in the truck I can bring in and look at blah, blah, and blah with if you would like me to, it only costs $XXX.00 for that.

You start off including it, it adds to your time, but its marketing effect is exponential, you slowly add to your inspection prices to cover its use, and between the extra work (which more than pays for the camera) you have the higher fees (which make you more money).

To me, it simply made all the difference in the world and set me even further apart from the everyday home inspectors than I already was, and allowed me to charge even more than I already was, which was already considerably more than the everyday home inspectors were charging.