Furnace exhaust

[Lisa Kucken]

Forgive me if this isn't the proper forum.

Our neighbors switched from oil heat to a gas furnace.

On the exterior of their home, there are two plastic pvc pipes coming from their house, one comes up and then curves downard toward the ground next to their house, the other has a curve that directs the exhaust outwards from their house, and this is where we see the release of vapor, so I'm assuming the other is an intake??? (I know nothing about HVAC).

There is an easement and they have their furnace exhausting directly onto our iron fence. It's literally within a couple of inches, and probably exhausting no more than twelve inches from their own operable windows, I thought this was a violation? Our municipality is pretty strict with codes, so I'm assuming the inspector would have caught this if this were a violation????

However, regarding the easement, I read somewhere on the internet that a furnace exhaust cannot be situated where the vapor will cause potential damage - i.e. rust on our iron fence. Our structure was there before they had the furnace installed, and we have documents to prove it.

Can anyone comment on the code?

[A.D. Miller]

Forgive me if this isn't the proper forum.

Our neighbors switched from oil heat to a gas furnace.

On the exterior of their home, there are two plastic pvc pipes coming from their house, one comes up and then curves downard toward the ground next to their house, the other has a curve that directs the exhaust outwards from their house, and this is where we see the release of vapor, so I'm assuming the other is an intake??? (I know nothing about HVAC).

There is an easement and they have their furnace exhausting directly onto our iron fence. It's literally within a couple of inches, and probably exhausting no more than twelve inches from their own operable windows, I thought this was a violation? Our municipality is pretty strict with codes, so I'm assuming the inspector would have caught this if this were a violation????

However, regarding the easement, I read somewhere on the internet that a furnace exhaust cannot be situated where the vapor will cause potential damage - i.e. rust on our iron fence. Our structure was there before they had the furnace installed, and we have documents to prove it.

Can anyone comment on the code?

LK: Right forum, wrong section, but since you're here . . . You will need to research several issues prior to making a decision about the installation you described. Which residential building code has your municipality adopted and which version of that code? What are the property setback limitations in your subdivision?

[A.D. Miller]

LK: You will also need to know the manufacturer of the furnace. The following is a typical statement from the installation instructions:

TERMINATION LOCATION AND CLEARANCES
Vent pipe and combustion-air-supply pipe (when direct
vented) may terminate through a roof or through a sidewall.
Roof termination has the advantages of better pipe
protection and fewer condensate-damage concerns. Use
the following guidelines when choosing a vent location:
Flue gases can be corrosive. When sidewall venting,
protect walls with a corrosion resistant material. Also,
terminate away from plants and shrubs.

Locate termination consistent with the National Fuel
Gas Code, ANSI Z223.1/NFPA 54 or the CAN/CGA
B149 Installation Codes.

Locate termination away from other air intake or
exhaust vents such as dryer vents, other gas appliance
vents, or plumbing vents. Allow at least 3 foot to any
other vent.

Terminal must not be located above a walkway,
driveway or within 10 feet of an adjacent building.

[Ted Menelly]

LK: You will also need to know the manufacturer of the furnace. The following is a typical statement from the installation instructions:

TERMINATION LOCATION AND CLEARANCES
Vent pipe and combustion-air-supply pipe (when direct
vented) may terminate through a roof or through a sidewall.
Roof termination has the advantages of better pipe
protection and fewer condensate-damage concerns. Use
the following guidelines when choosing a vent location:
Flue gases can be corrosive. When sidewall venting,
protect walls with a corrosion resistant material. Also,
terminate away from plants and shrubs.

Locate termination consistent with the National Fuel
Gas Code, ANSI Z223.1/NFPA 54 or the CAN/CGA
B149 Installation Codes.

Locate termination away from other air intake or
exhaust vents such as dryer vents, other gas appliance
vents, or plumbing vents. Allow at least 3 foot to any
other vent.

Terminal must not be located above a walkway,
driveway or within 10 feet of an adjacent building.

His situation sounds like just about zero lot lines as the neighbors exhaust is right on his iron fence.

[Lisa Kucken]

Actually, an easement grants us a right to use their property, i.e. install a fence on THEIR property, we own the fence, they own the property it is situated on. So the setback rules regarding property lines aren't really applicable, considering our fence abutts their house. As I stated earlier the fence existed prior to the furnace installation. Technically, I believe the building setback code, if that's what you are asking, is 18".

I did come across some HVAC regulations for the U.S. in a pdf file found on the internet, though I am unaware of this relates to a specific unit or type of installation, but it did state the termination could not be placed such that the vapor causes damage to property, i.e. the iron structure.

City inspector, in an anonymous call, said it sounds like a violation, but then why wouldn't they have caught this upon inspection? I confirmed a permit was pulled for the installation.

My attempt was to figure this out without getting the city involved, or at least wait to file a formal complaint once we were able to confirm that a violation does indeed exist. These neighbors are less than cooperative, to put it nicely, and that's just the icing on the cake. We have genuine concerns about the safety and maintenance of our property.

I don't know what codes were adopted by our municipality, or how I find that information.

[MaMa Mount]

There is nothing like causing some grief between the neighbors is there?:eek:
Good-gawd lady what is the worst thing that could happen? A little rust on your wrought-iron fence. Ever hear of Rustoleum and a little paint now and then??
You talk as if they are houligans with your I lived here first attitude.
Sounds like they have upgraded their oil polluting system to a more enviromental high efficient system.
Give them a break.

[Gunnar Alquist]

His situation sounds like just about zero lot lines as the neighbors exhaust is right on his iron fence.

His? Lots of men named "Lisa" where you come from, Ted? :rolleyes:

Lisa,

Pay no attention to the lady behind the alias. Call and ask at the building department what code is currently being enforced for furnace installations. You can also take a picture down to the building department and ask them if it is acceptable or not.

[David Bell]

The only violation seems to be your total disdain for you neighbor,,they are trying to be energy effeicient and you are worried about an iron fence. As long as the vent is not within 10 feet of one of the egresses whether it be window or door the system should be legal.

[Ed Snedaker]

Easement or not, why would you build a fence on their property unless you are deliberately trying to provoke them?

[Lisa Kucken]

Okay, I found state code adopted, the best I could find was a reference to ASHRAR Handbook 23.08 (5) (a) *& (e) systems & equipment found at Wisconsin Department of Commerce: S&B List of Administrative Codes - (http://www.commerce.state.wi.us/SB/SB-DivCodesListing.html). Chapter Comm 23

But, I still couldn't find anything regarding the clearance from a window or a structure, though I did see some reference about installing according to manufacturers specifications, which of course is why you mentioned that I would need to know the manufacturer, which I do not. Do I have a right to get a copy of the permit from the city? Is this information included with the permit? If not, I'm assuming at this point my only option is to get the inspector involved.

What are the odds the unit has a reference that it cannot be installed in a manner such that the vapors could damage property?

[MaMa Mount]

Okay, I found state code adopted, the best I could find was a reference to ASHRAR Handbook 23.08 (5) (a) *& (e) systems & equipment found at Wisconsin Department of Commerce: S&B List of Administrative Codes - (http://www.commerce.state.wi.us/SB/SB-DivCodesListing.html). Chapter Comm 23

But, I still couldn't find anything regarding the clearance from a window or a structure, though I did see some reference about installing according to manufacturers specifications, which of course is why you mentioned that I would need to know the manufacturer, which I do not. Do I have a right to get a copy of the permit from the city? Is this information included with the permit? If not, I'm assuming at this point my only option is to get the inspector involved.

What are the odds the unit has a reference that it cannot be installed in a manner such that the vapors could damage property?


Its probably not any worse than the pollutants that spew from your fireplace chimney and travel throughout the neighborhood for everyone to breathe into their lungs.:mad:

Happy Holidays

[Lisa Kucken]

Lets get the facts straight before jumping to conclusions.

It was the neighbors choice to have the fence installed on their property, not ours. We paid for the costs associated with the easement, to ACCOMMODATE the neighbors specific request for placement.

They chose the easement, they were in favor of it, and they granted it. We PAID for the custom designed iron portion that sits on their property, which increases the value of their property. We are responsible for maintaining that portion of our property (i.e. fence).

They neglected to inform us of their intent to install a vapor exhaust in that exact area, and had we known this, we would have installed the fence solely on our property. Yes, I am concerned with the upkeep to property that I own, and that is my right and my obligation as the owner to maintain it. When I have neighbors harassing me when I approach the fence on their property, which is my right within the easement rights, yes, I do have legitimate concerns knowing that I will be harassed each time I try to maintain what I own.

This is not a matter of disdain towards our neighbors, we are not causing grief, else I wouldn't be here to ask questions BEFORE getting the city involved.

And considering the numerous police reports that were filed regarding their ongoing offensive, confrontational and nuisance behavior, I suggest that you withhold judgement without first knowing all the facts. Our contractors were amazed at their ridiculous behavior, to say the least.

This isn't about the easement or provoking these neighbors. The only party doing the provoking is them.

This is about electrical code and potential damage to property. Now, can we get back to the subject at hand?

[Lisa Kucken]

Mama, it's an improvement compared to what comes out of your trap, apparently.

Prozac. Need I say more?

[Gunnar Alquist]

Lisa,

It sounds like you are seeing a catagory IV furnace. They have specific requirements regarding flue termination. I wonder why they did not take the flue pipe up through the roof.

Unless your area is different from mine, you will probably not be able to find out what the manufacturer is. Generally, the permit (at least around here) just states furnace replacement and does not specify which brand/make.

Once again, take a couple of photos and head down to talk to the inspector. He/she should be able to give you a straight answer.

[Lisa Kucken]

Thanks Gunnar.

Watch out for firecrotch. Sounds like she's got a little too much 'rust' going on herself, if you know what I mean.

[Billy Stephens]

But, I still couldn't find anything regarding the clearance from a window or a structure,

What are the odds the unit has a reference that it cannot be installed in a manner such that the vapors could damage property?
.
I'm not seeing the Could Damage Property the attachment is a General Guide Line Not Specific to The Unknown Installed Furnace for vent termination clearances.
.
There is a Nuisance Statement but I find that a Stretch ( how do you Annoy a Fence? )
.

[MaMa Mount]

Mama, it's an improvement compared to what comes out of your trap, apparently.

Prozac. Need I say more?


I may have red on the roof top but I have fire in the furnace. The crack in heat exchanger probably has sealed over with soot and scaling.

Prozac? Sounds like you know your meds all to well.:rolleyes:

[Jerry Peck]

Okay, I found state code adopted, the best I could find was a reference to ASHRAR Handbook 23.08 (5) (a) *& (e) systems & equipment found at Wisconsin Department of Commerce: S&B List of Administrative Codes - (http://www.commerce.state.wi.us/SB/SB-DivCodesListing.html). Chapter Comm 23

But, I still couldn't find anything regarding the clearance from a window or a structure,

From your link: (underlining and bold are mine)
- (3) VENTING SYSTEM LOCATION. (a) A venting system shall terminate at least 3 feet above any forced air inlet located within 10 feet horizontally. This provision does not apply to the combustion air intake of a direct−vent appliance.
- - (b) The venting system of other than a direct−vent appliance shall terminate at least 4 feet below, 4 feet horizontally from, or one foot above any door, window, or gravity air inlet into any building. The bottom of the vent shall be located at least 12 inches above grade.

- - (c) The vent terminal of a direct−vent appliance with an input of 10,000 Btu per hour or less shall be located at least 6 inches from any air opening into a building.
- - (d) The vent terminal of a direct−vent appliance with an input over 10,000 Btu per hour but not over 50,000 Btu per hour shall be located at least 9 inches from any air opening into a building.
- - (e) The vent terminal of a direct−vent appliance with an input over 50,000 Btu per hour shall be located at least 12 inches from any air opening into a building.
- - (f) The bottom of the vent terminal and the air intake of a direct−vent appliance shall be located at least 12 inches above grade.
- - (g) The exit terminal of a mechanical draft system shall be not less than 7 feet above grade where located within 3 feet of a public walkway that is intended for use by the general public.

"any air opening into a building" includes windows and doors.

Being as that is THEIR property, and you simply have an EASEMENT on which to build and maintain your fence, I am not sure there is a lot you can do about making anything meet anything in your favor other than what is stated in the codes as minimum requirements.

I am having a hard time understanding how YOUR fence on THEIR property improves the value of THEIR property ... to me ... that seem like it would reduce the value of THEIR property because YOU now have a easement over/onto it, and a future buyer may not want that, thus it would likely REDUCE the value of their property regardless of what you built on it.


though I did see some reference about installing according to manufacturers specifications,

Correct. ALL appliances must be installed in accordance with the installation instructions for that appliance.


which of course is why you mentioned that I would need to know the manufacturer, which I do not. Do I have a right to get a copy of the permit from the city? Is this information included with the permit?

It is a "public document" and is therefore available for you (and anyone) to view and get a copy of (the copy may have a slight charge per page, however, viewing it at the building department should not have any cost to it).


What are the odds the unit has a reference that it cannot be installed in a manner such that the vapors could damage property?

Not great odds in that it would be worded that way.

[Ted Menelly]

His? Lots of men named "Lisa" where you come from, Ted? :rolleyes:

Lisa,

Pay no attention to the lady behind the alias. Call and ask at the building department what code is currently being enforced for furnace installations. You can also take a picture down to the building department and ask them if it is acceptable or not.

Yep

Talking to a male client as I was responding

[A.D. Miller]

Goils will be goils.:D

[Craig Ervin]

Lisa, I understand your concern, but you should just let is go.
FWIW sounds like you installed a nice fence that most likely has a powder coated finish. In fact if you got the fence from a place like HD or Lowes most of those manufactures even galvanize the metal before the powder coat. Which means it will be 10 years before you would even notice any issues. The exhaust is not that big of a deal. If it was there would be a lot more codes about it. If this really makes you upset, you should move the fence and call it a day as thats what a judge would tell you to do. :)

[ken horak]

I seem to remember a person posting the same exact issue on another forum a few months back. I can't recall the forum, but do recall the topic.
Same set up, same caompliats plus on that forum they were also complaining about a noise from the exhaust vent.

Seems someone is just trying to find "ammo" to shoot at the neighbor ??

I agree, move the fence to your property. WHY would you build a fence on your neighbors property anyway?

[Brad Peterson]

Merry Christmas to all- This whole mix of comments has me thankfull I live out West where there are more important and meaningfull disagreements to have.
If the owner of the furnace is within code and no safety hazard VISIBLE and an agreement between the two land owners was workable with them both then why get your hackles tied up in a knot.
If either one of these items is not in agreement, then simply move the furnace vent and move the fence to the origanal lot line.
I say we all go to Hopenhagan and and save the world from it's own demise and if that doesn't work we can turn all our furnaces all on at once and change the tempature of the world and save a poal bear or harp seal who are not threatened at all anyway..
In other works enjoy the day and don't swet the small stuf.

Brad Peterson
Tri-City Inspection Agency, LLC
Nunn, CO.

[A.D. Miller]

Merry Christmas to all- This whole mix of comments has me thankfull I live out West where there are more important and meaningfull disagreements to have.
If the owner of the furnace is within code and no safety hazard VISIBLE and an agreement between the two land owners was workable with them both then why get your hackles tied up in a knot.
If either one of these items is not in agreement, then simply move the furnace vent and move the fence to the origanal lot line.
I say we all go to Hopenhagan and and save the world from it's own demise and if that doesn't work we can turn all our furnaces all on at once and change the tempature of the world and save a poal bear or harp seal who are not threatened at all anyway..
In other works enjoy the day and don't swet the small stuf.

Brad Peterson
Tri-City Inspection Agency, LLC
Nunn, CO.

BP: Besides being an inbred redneck Republican from "out West" and an avid poor speller, what other talents do you possess?:D

[Gunnar Alquist]

BP: Besides being an inbred redneck Republican from "out West" and an avid poor speller, what other talents do you possess?:D

A.D.

I have seen no state or national association's Standards of Practice or any state licensing that requires accurate spelling from home inspectors. ;)

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

ditto the above.

An easement doesn't perscribe a taking nor squatting. Easement allows access and use not permission of a taking. Your fence, Lisa is an encroachment, a squatting, a taking, and if on your neighbor's property is a tresspass. An easement allows access to service or use, not a reliquishment of ownership. From the sounds of it your neighbor is fully entitled to discharge the products of combustion and acidic condensate upon his own property irrespective of your "occupation" with your fence at your own peril; which apparently serves to restrict the neighbor's use and enjoyement of his own property by its mere existance.

Somebody has their panties in a bundle over nothing. Keep pushing your gracious neighbor who afforded you an easement and you proceeded to trespass, encroach, and attempt a "taking". THEY have a case against you (as you've presented it), for your fence is restricting their own "enjoyment" and use of THEIR OWN property.

You have a choice, shut up and eat it, or persue and end up having the neighbor force you to move your dang fence encroaching on their property - the choice is yours. Suggest you STFluffUp and send them a holiday floral arrangement with gratitude.

The alternative might include the neighbor remove the obstruction, scrapping the fence keepin the proceeds and/or forcing you to pay to move the fence upon the property line still allwoing your easement for servicing it - or even moving that fence upon your property within the setback provisions affording you only the prerequisite easment upon their property for MAINTENANCE.

It isn't your land - you can't "take it", nor restrict their own use and enjoyment of it.

[Jerry Peck]

An easement doesn't perscribe a taking nor squatting. Easement allows access and use not permission of a taking. Your fence, Lisa is an encroachment, a squatting, a taking, and if on your neighbor's property is a tresspass. An easement allows access to service or use, not a reliquishment of ownership.

Keep pushing your gracious neighbor who afforded you an easement and you proceeded to trespass, encroach, and attempt a "taking". THEY have a case against you (as you've presented it), for your fence is restricting their own "enjoyment" and use of THEIR OWN property.


H.G.,

You are correct in the way MOST easements operate, however, as explained in the information given us ... SHE PAID ... THE OWNER ... for the easement SPECIFICALLY TO INSTALL THE FENCE ON IT.

That does not result in a "taking" nor is there any "trespass" going on ... that was was bought and paid for ... i.e., fulfilling the terms of the contract the easement was entered into.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

A service easement on a set-back to maintain something on the property line which allows her to go onto the neighbor's property to service it, or a shared use (such as a driveway), is not the same thing as errecting a fence on the neighbors property which prevents the neighbor from using HIS/HER OWN PROPERTY.

That may have been her INTENT all along (Lisa's) but I do not believe the "easement" she refers to GIVES HER EXCLUSIVE USE AND CONTROL of the neighbor's property - or gives her the right for all time to exlude and deprive the present owner and all future owners from the use and enjoyment of the strip of property - thus a tresspass and attempt at a squatting or taking. Fact is an Easement here preserves the property owner's title to the land - and a fence maintenance easement never usurps zoning/setback provisions provided by law - a varience would have to be gotten from the civil authority - unless the fence is on the neighbor's property and technically belongs to the neighbor, and Lisa is allowed by existing to tie in to said fence. If the neighbor wants to take it down (or move it) its the neighbor's perogative.

If that were the case - the strip would have been subdivided and transfered, with the seller retaining an easement allowing them to access and service their own property. She also indicated that the fence was upto/on the neighbor's home's wall.

Anyway, as indicated by another poster, I too have seen this nearly exactly the same post discussion, recently, elsewhere. I don't expect Lisa will return here, and if "she" does, I would expect similar reactions as previously displayed ("crotch" comments, "prozac", etc.) to those which do not agree with her "innocent victim of the evil neighbors" view.

I do not wish to get into a pi## match about easements with you JP. As already evidenced in the past - this area is not your strong point, esp. outside of your local experience.

[Rick Cantrell]

In this case, Watson's understanding of what an easement is, and is not, is also my understanding. An easement does not convey exclusive use, only access.

[Jerry Peck]

That may have been her INTENT all along (Lisa's) but I do not believe the "easement" she refers to GIVES HER EXCLUSIVE USE AND CONTROL of the neighbor's property - or gives her the right for all time to exlude and deprive the present owner and all future owners from the use and enjoyment of the strip of property - thus a tresspass and attempt at a squatting or taking.


No one is saying that it gives her EXCLUSIVE USE AND CONTROL, only that it gives her THE RIGHT TO PUT HER FENCE THERE, and you indicated otherwise.

The easement also gives her the right to maintain her fence.

The easement probably also gives the owner the right to locate the discharge wherever they deem appropriate.

That last part is what the question was about, and what has been debated by some, while others have tried to state that she did not have the right to put her fence there:


An easement doesn't perscribe a taking nor squatting. Easement allows access and use not permission of a taking. Your fence, Lisa is an encroachment, a squatting, a taking, and if on your neighbor's property is a tresspass.

SHE DOES HAVE PERMISSION to put her fence there, it IS NOT "an encroachment, a squatting, a taking" and her fence on their property IS NOT "a tresspass" so long as the PURCHASED easement allows for that, and we were told that WAS THE REASON the easement was PURCHASED, i.e., the owner of the property received compensation for giving up the right to put the fence there. Now, without reviewing the document, we HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING the limitations, all all inclusiveness, of that document, WHICH IS A BINDING CONTRACT and WAS PAID FOR.

You are stating a lot of negatives without knowing what the contract covers and includes, or for that matter, what it does not cover or include.

[Jerry Peck]

In this case, Watson's understanding of what an easement is, and is not, is also my understanding. An easement does not convey exclusive use, only access.

Rick,

Like H.G., you are not understanding, in fact not even knowledgeable in, what the easement covers. That information has not been disclosed here, other than to state that it was *purchased* to *allow them to build their fence* on that property.

Regarding other inclusions and/or exclusions, we have not been given that information.

The *purchased* easement may very well state that the owner of the property will not create an undue hazard to the fence ... we simply DO NOT KNOW ... what the contract (that "easement" is a "contract") covers.

[Rick Cantrell]

Jerry
Maybe I'm wrong, but the way I understand an easement is pretty much how Watson described it.
("Easement allows access")
The way I understand it. The easement holder has a right of access or right of passage over the easement. The easement holder has no right to erect any structure, including a fence, on the easement.
The person who owns the property, cannot restrict or deny access, nor are they allowed to build any structure on the easement, includeing a fence, unless the easement allows for it.

"Like H.G., you are not understanding, in fact not even knowledgeable in, what the easement covers."
I do not know, nor did I comment on if this pertains to the OP
I only commented that I agree with him on what an easement is.

[Jerry Peck]

I do not know, nor did I comment on if this pertains to the OP
I only commented that I agree with him on what an easement is.


Rick,

And H.G. was stating what it is in relation to the post and question, and was stating that she did not have the right to have her fence there, when in fact, according to her post, they bought and paid for that right.