Shower Head Leak Causes Flood?

[Fran Rice]

I'm new to this forum and I thank everyone in advance for any insights..

I'm a tenant living in a house. The landlord lives on the 2nd floor. The main floor is divided into 2 units. I live in one of the units.

Recently the landlord told me about water leak in the other unit and it's probably due to our bathtub problem. The landlord just purchased this house for less than 1 year so he still has warranty from the builder.

Today the builder came and checked the bathtub. He said the leak is caused by the shower head. The shower head is missing a gasket in the junction so it's leaking. We did notice a leak in the junction when we first install it, but we thought it's ok because the water is leaking into the drain anyway.

What I don't understand is how is it possible that a leak in the shower head that goes into the tub would cause water leaking into the other unit? The landlord claims that they pulled the floor up on the other unit because it's all damaged. Now they want us to pay for fixing the floor in the other unit and they haven't collected rent for the whole month.

I'm trying to understand if it's possible that changing a shower head would cause so much damage and whether we are liable for that. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Right after I post this I checked the tub, the hose attached to the wall is not sealed. The landlord told us because the shower head is leaking, water went back up to the hose on the outside and into the wall. I guess my question is whether between the hose and the wall should it be sealed?


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[Bruce Ramsey]

Pictures would be helpful.

Does your bathroom share a common wall with the other tenant?

[Rick Cantrell]

Today the builder came and checked the bathtub. He said the leak is caused by the shower head. The shower head is missing a gasket in the junction so it's leaking. We did notice a leak in the junction when we first install it, but we thought it's ok because the water is leaking into the drain anyway.

What I don't understand is how is it possible that a leak in the shower head that goes into the tub would cause water leaking into the other unit?

Even a small water leak can travel a distant.

The landlord claims that they pulled the floor up on the other unit because it's all damaged. Now they want us to pay for fixing the floor in the other unit and they haven't collected rent for the whole month.

I'm trying to understand if it's possible that changing a shower head would cause so much damage

yes, very easily

and whether we are liable for that.

Depends on the laws in your state, but yes, you are responsible for damages you cause, even indirectly.


Right after I post this I checked the tub, the hose attached to the wall is not sealed. The landlord told us because the shower head is leaking, water went back up to the hose on the outside and into the wall. I guess my question is whether between the hose and the wall should it be sealed?

No

[Fran Rice]

Pictures would be helpful.

Does your bathroom share a common wall with the other tenant?

It's the same wall. I will post some pics in a moment..

[Nick Ostrowski]

I'm not sure I understand all the terminology you're using Fran so I'll take a stab at this. It sounds as though water from the leak may be running backwards on the shower head supply pipe and is running down inside the wall cavity to your neighbor's ceiling below. Sometimes the water pressure can shoot a leak at odd angles and make water run in directions it normally would not.

If you installed the head yourself and the leak is originating from the fixture you installed, I'd say you are responsible.

As for whether or not the area on the wall where the shower head supply pipe passes through should be sealed, I never seem them sealed as the shower head and supply pipe are not supposed to leak. But leaks can work themselves into strange places.

[Jim Luttrall]

I guess my question is whether between the hose and the wall should it be sealed?
I cannot imagine any installation in which a hose would properly be installed through a hole in a wall.
Sounds like you removed the shower head extension neck and connected inside the wall. Most hand held showers have a bleeder valve that dribble water intentionally when in use and once shut off, part of anti-siphon requirement.
If this is the case then you screwed the pooch. Pay up.
If in doubt, call a plumber to examine and correct any defects. Take photos before and after and get a statement from the plumber for your defense (if you have any)

[Fran Rice]

I cannot imagine any installation in which a hose would properly be installed through a hole in a wall.
Sounds like you removed the shower head extension neck and connected inside the wall. Most hand held showers have a bleeder valve that dribble water intentionally when in use and once shut off, part of anti-siphon requirement.
If this is the case then you screwed the pooch. Pay up.
If in doubt, call a plumber to examine and correct any defects. Take photos before and after and get a statement from the plumber for your defense (if you have any)

I unscrewed the old shower head and screwed in the new shower head. I am not familiar with the terminology about all the parts in plumbing. The hose I mentioned I mean the arm that the shower head attaches to and runs into the wall. I thought the arm and the wall should be sealed because any splashes during shower could cause water running into the wall. It's a matter of time. So I'm quite surprised it does not need to be sealed.

[Ron Bibler]

I unscrewed the old shower head and screwed in the new shower head. I am not familiar with the terminology about all the parts in plumbing. The hose I mentioned I mean the arm that the shower head attaches to and runs into the wall. I thought the arm and the wall should be sealed because any splashes during shower could cause water running into the wall. It's a matter of time. So I'm quite surprised it does not need to be sealed.

Fran... Today... Right now...A.S.A.P. Get some to come over and look at this issue... A contractor Friend. a Brother in law some one with 2 cents of construction... Take a lot of photos 20 or 30 from the inside out side from every angle of the bathroom and every section of plumbing. adjacent rooms.

Do this now. Today tonight. Or you could be out a few $Ksand

Good luck

Best

Ron


P.S. Are you in Vancouver Washington state or B.C. ? If you can not find some one there are inspectors on this board that can help you with this... and it may be best for you to employ one of these inspectors. Could save you many thounsand...

[Fran Rice]

Fran... Today... Right now...A.S.A.P. Get some to come over and look at this issue... A contractor Friend. a Brother in law some one with 2 cents of construction... Take a lot of photos 20 or 30 from the inside out side from every angle of the bathroom and every section of plumbing. adjacent rooms.

Do this now. Today tonight. Or you could be out a few $Ksand

Good luck

Best

Ron


P.S. Are you in Vancouver Washington state or B.C. ? If you can not find some one there are inspectors on this board that can help you with this... and it may be best for you to employ one of these inspectors. Could save you many thounsand...


I just took some pictures and posted it in my original post.

I'm from Vancouver BC. I called several plumbers they are not available until Monday. Still trying to find one..

[Scott Patterson]

Is the shower head leaking and spraying water back on the wall?

I do not see how water from the shower head could cause this problem unless it is spraying water back on the wall and it is then entering the wall cavity between the two units.

My guess is that there is a leak in the supply or shower supply line.

[Fran Rice]

Is the shower head leaking and spraying water back on the wall?

I do not see how water from the shower head could cause this problem unless it is spraying water back on the wall and it is then entering the wall cavity between the two units.

My guess is that there is a leak in the supply or shower supply line.

Thanks for the reply.

We just had a plumber come in to see. He said there is no way the shower head leak would cause so much water on the other side. He said he has to check the other unit and it should be caused by something else. But the landlord wasn't home so he couldn't go in. We installed the "leaky" shower head back to see the leak. There were water dripping down the drain but not back up to the wall. The arm that holds the shower head is totally dry. So we will see how it goes...

[chris mcintyre]

Sounds like you removed the shower head extension neck and connected inside the wall.quote]

[quote=Fran Rice;119315]I unscrewed the old shower head and screwed in the new shower head. I am not familiar with the terminology about all the parts in plumbing. The hose I mentioned I mean the arm that the shower head attaches to and runs into the wall. I thought the arm and the wall should be sealed because any splashes during shower could cause water running into the wall. It's a matter of time. So I'm quite surprised it does not need to be sealed.

I think Jim had this one figured out.

Fran,
Did you put Teflon tape on the threads before you installed the shower head? I would suggest using the tub and not the shower until you can get a plumber to come by.

[Fran Rice]

[quote=Jim Luttrall;119312]Sounds like you removed the shower head extension neck and connected inside the wall.quote]



I think Jim had this one figured out.

Fran,
Did you put Teflon tape on the threads before you installed the shower head? I would suggest using the tub and not the shower until you can get a plumber to come by.

I did not remove the shower head extension neck. And no, I did not use Teflon tape.

[Ron Bibler]

Fran get some on paper from that plumber.

Best

Ron

[Ron Bibler]

Looking at your photos your land loard is a wack job and is trying to stick you with the repair bill. get that plumber to state the fact on paper you may need that in court.

best

Ron

[Jim Luttrall]

Your pictures and clarification on terms tell a much different story. I'm leaning to Ron's "wack job landlord" theory.
Still need an investigation by a plumber (someone besides the landlords guy.)
Good luck!

[Daniel Leung]

Hi Fran, I don't think the water damage is caused from changing the shower head, however it may be come from the cracked tile-grout.
Please make a visual inspection on the tile-grout between wall tiles. You may find some hair cracks on the tile-grout which caused water penetration into the wall. If no cracks found, check any caulking (silicon rubber) around the cover of valve handle and faucet spout.
If you need a Moisture Tester to confirm any water behind the wall tiles, please ask your plumber or call me (you may find the phone number on my website).

[Rick Cantrell]

Ron
"your land loard is a wack job and is trying to stick you with the repair bill."

LL discovered a leak
Since house is less than 1 year
LL called the builder, which is what he should have done.
The builder reports to LL that
damage was caused by leak, that
leak was caused by shower head that
teneat installed shower head.

Why do you think the LL is a wack job
If anything the builder is trying to find someone else to blame

[Ted Menelly]

Not touching the extension arm that connects to the fitting inside the wall then it is not leaking back into the wall. If the shower head connection to the arm is leaking and spraying out of your shower to the floor and then finding its way thru cracks and joints and such then it would be like you overflowing a sink or tub and causing damage to the building.

Are you responcible for repairs ??? Who knows. It sounds more like the buildings "owners) insurance would take care of it.

[Fran Rice]

Thanks all for the great advices.

We talked to the landlord and he still wanted to insist to make us liable, until we tell him we will go through the court. If we are not liable we will sue for loss of enjoyment in life due to stress caused by his accussation. Immediately he's taking us seriously that we are not some kind of fool.

Yesterday he told us there is still water leaking out even after the builder changed back to the original shower head. He asked the builder to come to fix it. The builder came in and put some silicon to seal around the tap and the extension arm of the shower head.

Now we will see if there's still water leaking out. If there is, it could be the pipes inside. Anyhow, it won't be our problem anyway.

We greatly appreciate all the professional advice from everyone. We did every step to protect ourselves. We recorded all our conversation with the landlord, took pictures, and drafted an agreement for the landlord to state that we are no longer liable for the water damage. I'm glad that I came to this forum so I could be firm to tell my landlord that I'm not liable for this problem and why I'm not liable. Thanks all ;)

[Bob Elliott]

Fran I think that is a new shower wall and I see Teflon tape on the thread.
If the water is squirting backwards it is not your fault as the landlord should have sealed the opening where the pipe comes out with silicone.
I call this issue out in almost every report.
Here is a picture showing what I think you are talking about.

16061

All tub and shower openings need to be sealed and I recommend the grout be sealed with a silicon based grout sealant as water will penetrate the grout and loosen the wall tile.This can also possibly lead to mold issues.

These are landlord Deferred maintenance items.
I recommend you call a tenants right organization for help.
Check if the grout is sealed by getting part of it wet and looking to see if it changes color Fran.

If it does then he never sealed it.
Stand up for your rights and do not be bullied.

Bob Elliott
Protection of People and Property

[Fran Rice]

Fran I think that is a new shower wall and I see Teflon tape on the thread.
If the water is squirting backwards it is not your fault as the landlord should have sealed the opening where the pipe comes out with silicone.
I call this issue out in almost every report.
Here is a picture showing what I think you are talking about.

16061

All tub and shower openings need to be sealed and I recommend the grout be sealed with a silicon based grout sealant as water will penetrate the grout and loosen the wall tile.This can also possibly lead to mold issues.

These are landlord Deferred maintenance items.
I recommend you call a tenants right organization for help.
Check if the grout is sealed by getting part of it wet and looking to see if it changes color Fran.

If it does then he never sealed it.
Stand up for your rights and do not be bullied.

Bob Elliott
Protection of People and Property

Thanks Bob. I just splashed some water on the tile. The grout changed to a deeper color. Maybe I can tell my landlord about this too. Great info! Thanks.

After the builder came to fix the leak, below is how it looks now.. I heard the builder cut the tile and tighten "something" inside the wall (I wasn't there so I don't know) and he sealed between the wall and the tap. The builder said he miscalculated the position, so there is a hole on the wall..

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4348510656_dca7200d33_m.jpg

[Fran Rice]

Ron
"your land loard is a wack job and is trying to stick you with the repair bill."

LL discovered a leak
Since house is less than 1 year
LL called the builder, which is what he should have done.
The builder reports to LL that
damage was caused by leak, that
leak was caused by shower head that
teneat installed shower head.

Why do you think the LL is a wack job
If anything the builder is trying to find someone else to blame

The builder didn't want to care. The landlord was dishonest too. I heard water has been leaking three days ago, even after the builder came to change the shower head. The landlord didn't tell us it's not our fault after he knows the water leak is not caused by our shower head. He just wants to make it easy for himself finding whoever he can blame to pay for his bill.

[Bob Elliott]

Fran I am not a Lawyer but I can tell you what I would do.

First print this Q and A session.

Write down exact dates of everything ,including who you spoke with and what they said.

Get all contractors phone numbers.

Is that wall on proper cement board or drywall ?

Send the Landlord a a "documented letter" I am worried about the water causing Mold and request he pay for a Mold Inspection.

Your persistence tells me you are honest .

[Ted Menelly]

Fran I am not a Lawyer but I can tell you what I would do.

First print this Q and A session.

Write down exact dates of everything ,including who you spoke with and what they said.

Get all contractors phone numbers.

Is that wall on proper cement board or drywall ?

Send the Landlord a a "documented letter" I am worried about the water causing Mold and request he pay for a Mold Inspection.

Your persistence tells me you are honest .

And the red highlight has to do with what about the subject matter of leaks?

[Bob Elliott]

And the red highlight has to do with what about the subject matter of leaks?
How about if I turn that around and ask you what happens when it starts to dryout with tile on it?

Why is standard drywall not used in bathrooms?
Answer those questions and you will have the answer to what you asked me.

I am trying to help the lady , not turn this into an Inspector pi--ing match.
Thanks for all the help :(

You are a credit to mankind.:)

In case you were just asking a question because you do not no (never mind) :)

The reason is the landlord may be creating a petri dish for Mold if he is dumb as I think he might be for not taking care of this nice woman.

Here is an excerpt from a site to help out, with credit at the bottom:::

The great value of cement board is does not rot, warp, grow mold, or deteriorate, when subjected to water. Wood obviously is not a great material to use in wet applications, and even green board (http://homerenovations.about.com/od/wallsandtrim/a/artgreenboard.htm), a more hardy type of drywall, is not recommended for places with constant water usage, such as showers. Cement backer board is mainly used as a sub-surface for tiling.

Cement Board - Cement Backer Board - What is Cement Board? (http://homerenovations.about.com/od/floors/a/cementboard.htm)

[Ted Menelly]

My curiosity was to the immediate leak concern which I thought you were thinking that whether there was drywall, durock or what ever would have something to do with the leak at hand. Overall time concern and other concerns down the road yes.

Not questioning your help for the nice Lady.

[Bob Elliott]

My curiosity was to the immediate leak concern which I thought you were thinking that whether there was drywall, durock or what ever would have something to do with the leak at hand. Overall time concern and other concerns down the road yes.

Not questioning your help for the nice Lady.

Sorry then
I was thinking that she needs to go offensive with this jerk and I would lay odds that he used green board or regular drywall which will possibly lead to mold or loose wall tile and he will blame her for that too if she does not stick first.
Sorry if not clear, as I am running in and out or sometimes doing this off my phone.

[Jerry Peck]

All tub and shower openings need to be sealed and I recommend the grout be sealed with a silicon based grout sealant as water will penetrate the grout and loosen the wall tile.

"water will penetrate the grout and loosen the wall tile"

If it does that, what is wrong is not the grout not being sealed but how, and to what, the tile was installed.

Water WILL soak through the grout. The grout DOES NOT need to be sealed. If however the tile is installed comes loose because of that little water soaking in, then the tile WAS INSTALLED INCORRECTLY.


This can also possibly lead to mold issues.

Oh, please, not this 'mold' garbage again.

[Bob Elliott]

"water will penetrate the grout and loosen the wall tile"

If it does that, what is wrong is not the grout not being sealed but how, and to what, the tile was installed.

Water WILL soak through the grout. The grout DOES NOT need to be sealed. If however the tile is installed comes loose because of that little water soaking in, then the tile WAS INSTALLED INCORRECTLY.



Oh, please, not this 'mold' garbage again.

Mold Garbage?
Jerry it is important to keep grout sealed as it lets water through it absorbs odors and germs.

Loose Ceramic Tile (http://www.leakyshower.com/loosetile.htm)

Wall tiles become loose when water seeps through broken grout lines that usually are installed over sheetrock. The solution is to replace the tile and backer board. Contractors either float concrete walls, use a cementitious backer board, or claim to use (greenboard) waterproof sheetrock. Waterproof sheetrock does not exist. The correct term is moisture resistant sheetrock (M.R.sheetrock). Gypsum is not waterproof. The green paper on M.R. sheetrock makes it resistant to moisture. Grout absorbs moisture. Cracks in the grout absorb water. Water absorbs into the sheetrock like a wet sponge, eventually making the sheetrock fall apart.
Most dampness troubles in the home stem from three major causes:

faulty construction
improper maintenance
lack of awareness about the tricks humidity, vapor and condensation can play on your home.

http://www.onlinetips.org/porcelain-tile-countertops
Care should be taken to choose the correct tile for the purpose; there is more at
stake when choosing a tile than its style and color. This is because not all
porcelain tiles absorb the same amount of water. Non vitreous tiles absorb water and
they are not suitable for areas around showers and sink countertops.
Semi vitreous tiles have a low rate for water absorption which makes them a good
choice for areas that will be splashed. High density glazed porcelain tiles absorb
no water, so they can be used for shower areas as well as a countertop..

Grout gets stained and also is there anyone that has not seen mold all over the grout in tubs.








I would hate to smell yours:)

Your opinion is wrong on that one ,and not in step with expert opinion.

[Richard DAquanno]

No way is it from a shower head, if the house was over 20yrs old maybe the shower arm inside the wall, i have seen the threads just fall apart

i have seen tile guys cut the tile too short around the fixtures and you cant get the proper seal around the flanges.
if thats not it there could be a leak on the plumbing system behind the wall

i would think its coming from the tub spout fittings or the pipe going to the shower head (check out all the solder joints)

[Jim Ellison]

I bought a house from a contractor that lived in it for two years. Two years later I found the sheetrock near the shower head damp. After opening it up, I found a slow drip anytime the shower was on. I found the extension neck not properly seal with teflon and screwed in enough. Your leak must be rally bad to cause that much damage.

[RANDY NICHOLAS]

Look at the picture in Fran's post #22.

The ceramic tile corner is broken to the upper left of the water control lever.

The escutcheon does not cover the tile.

Looks like the source of water intrusion into the wall cavity.

[Richard DAquanno]

Randy, when the builder came out he cut worked on something behind the plate but to get to it he cut the tile, and a little too much

he must of found a joint that was leaking and couldn't get to it, now the tile has to be replaced

are these people licensed contractors

[Richard DAquanno]

Randy, when the builder came out, he worked on something behind the plate but to get to it he cut the tile, and a little too much

he must of found a joint that was leaking and couldn't get to it, now the tile has to be replaced

are these people licensed contractors

[Bert de Haan]

The builder didn't want to care. The landlord was dishonest too. I heard water has been leaking three days ago, even after the builder came to change the shower head. The landlord didn't tell us it's not our fault after he knows the water leak is not caused by our shower head. He just wants to make it easy for himself finding whoever he can blame to pay for his bill.I'm not sure if I understand correctly; If the attachment to the shower head is missing a gasket, it would still only leak when the shower is on. Unless it is spaying back at the opening in the wall, it is immaterial if the person taking a shower gets wet from the water coming out of the shower head or out of the joint. As soon as the shower is turned off, the leak would stop as well. You say you didn't change the actual pipe that goes through the wall so I think you are in good shape.

[Jerry Peck]

Mold Garbage?
Jerry it is important to keep grout sealed as it lets water through it absorbs odors and germs.

Loose Ceramic Tile (http://www.leakyshower.com/loosetile.htm)

Wall tiles become loose when water seeps through broken grout lines that usually are installed over sheetrock.

That is what I said:

If it does that, what is wrong is not the grout not being sealed but how, and to what, the tile was installed.

Water WILL soak through the grout. The grout DOES NOT need to be sealed. If however the tile is installed comes loose because of that little water soaking in, then the tile WAS INSTALLED INCORRECTLY.

Did you miss that part above?

Also applies to the other reference you posted. Do you not read, or simply insist that "sealing grout" solves IMPROPER INSTALLATION AND IMPROPER MATERIALS?

The solution is not to "seal the grout", the solution is to replace the improperly installed materials. To suggest otherwise is not looking out for your client's best interest.

[Fran Rice]

Fran I am not a Lawyer but I can tell you what I would do.

First print this Q and A session.

Write down exact dates of everything ,including who you spoke with and what they said.

Get all contractors phone numbers.

Is that wall on proper cement board or drywall ?

Send the Landlord a a "documented letter" I am worried about the water causing Mold and request he pay for a Mold Inspection.

Your persistence tells me you are honest .


Thanks Bob for a lot of information and suggestions.

I'm not sure it's cement board or drywall.. not sure how to identify them.

However, we plan to move next month, so don't want to care too much about the landlord's mess. I hope we can find a better quality place to rent. Now whenever we shower we are anxious whether water will leak out from here or there. It sucks.