April 19th "Don't Tread on Me" Campaign

[James Foy]

Step 1. Print out FIVE COPIES of the most descriptive flag in American history, the symbol Benjamin Franklin felt was the most appropriate for the revolution when he wrote, "She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage. ... she never wounds 'till she has generously given notice, even to her enemy, and cautioned him against the danger of treading on her."

<img alt="Don't Tread On Me" border="0" height="266" width="400"> (http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/images/dont-tread-on-me.html)
Click on Flag to Get Printable Version (http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/images/dont-tread-on-me.html)
Note: It does not matter whether you print color or black and white copies. The message, not the color is what is important!
Step 2. Fold one of the 8 1/2 x 11 inch flags and insert it into an envelope addressed the President of the United States. The President's address is:

President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
Fold another and insert it into an envelope addressed to your Federal Representative. Fold another two flags and address them to each of your Senators in Washington, DC.

Click here to find the addresses of your Senators and Representative. (http://capwiz.com/gunowners/directory/congdir.tt)
Place all four envelopes in the mail so they are postmarked MONDAY, APRIL 19th. Why April 19th? Because April 19th is the anniversary of the "Shot Heard Round the World." On that day in 1775, our forefathers stood their ground against British tyranny in the Battle of Old North Bridge at Concord, Massachusetts.
Save the FIFTH FLAG for the reward I will give you after April 19th. That fifth flag will be worth thousands of dollars to you to show my thanks for your participation in sending a clear message to our government that the Silent Majority in this country will not tolerate the direction America is heading.
Step 3. Forward this email to your family and friends, everyone on your e-mail lists, and place it on all the chat rooms you frequent. Make this April 19th postmark "Don't Tread on Me" mail campaign go viral throughout the Internet and OVERWHELM our elected officials in Washington, DC so they know, without a doubt, that the Silent Majority, who understand the Constitution -- whether Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, or undeclared are NOT TO BE TREAD UPON!


Forwarded from:Dr. Ignatius Piazza, owner Frontsight

[Corn Walker]

Maybe you can help me, since I can't get any answers from anyone else and you seem to be active and informed.

What freedoms have we lost since Obama became president? I'm sure there are several, seeing how large and loud and angry the protests are, I just don't know what they are.

I apologize if this request is too basic; I've tried using the Google but I must not be putting in the right search words.

[Jerry Peck]

the Silent Majority in this country will not tolerate the direction America is heading.


But it will tolerate the direction American was heading which got America to this point?

Seems to me someone's head is either: a) screwed on backward; b) screwed on too tightly; c) screwed on to where it has stripped out; d) not screwed on at all; e) just plain screwed up ... take your pick. :rolleyes:

[Ted Menelly]

But it will tolerate the direction American was heading which got America to this point?

Seems to me someone's head is either: a) screwed on backward; b) screwed on too tightly; c) screwed on to where it has stripped out; d) not screwed on at all; e) just plain screwed up ... take your pick. :rolleyes:


Jerry

Give it up man about what was. It could have been fixed by a recession. You cannot fix what is taking place now with a recession. One of the reasons we became in so bad a shape at the end of GB Presidency is that neither the Dems or the Republicans let a hard recession hit at the end of Clinton's run for 8 years. If that was allowed to happen then we would not have gotten the double whammy at the end of GBs run.

You really need to get in touch with what is happening right now and in the future. That was not an insult. Just a fact. We are headed down a road that has no fixing. The only way to fix it in the future is to become a full socialist country and then it will still need fixing because it can only go down hill from there.

Is that what you want Jerry. An unable to be fixed society. There is a point one can go before the direction he is headed is far worse than what he is in right now.

That is not all bloated hype or republican jargon. Just simple fact. Stop thinking like a republican or a democrat and step outside the boundaries of both. Then when at that point get out your calculator and start adding things up. Look at the rest of the world around you.

A capitalistic country fixes itself every several years with a recession. No chance. No gain. Is that what you want. This health care thing should have been crept into and not a head on dive of the cliff from 100 feet. Step by step should have been taken over a period of years. Sound thought out means of how to pay for each step should have been thought about before all this took place.

As far as CWs question. It is not so much what he has already taken away but what is about to be taken away. Do you realize that auditors from the IRS by the thousands are going to have greater control and be the govs police auditing doctors and hospitals to see who was treated for what. How much it cost, who did or did not have health insurance etc etc etc etc. And then after all this is done yearly, fines levied on those that may not have health insurance. If it is found that they cannot afford health insurance then you will be paying for theirs increasing your cost for everything. There is absolutely no way that the cost will not continue to rise yearly for everything. You pay for the emergency room visit now for those that do not have health care. What you are not paying for yet is the massive cost of continuing to pay month after month after year after year for their policy. Hundreds of dollars a month. They will be going to the doctors office for the slightest sniffle. A little bitty splinter. A scratchy throat. Every time they go for such foolishness you will pay for it. Think about when you go to the doctors office now. Look around. See what the mass majority of folks are there for. Petty crap. Blood tests run, x rays for things that would have been gone in another day or so. You will be paying for that as well. Do you realize that everything you buy and everything you do is going to be higher priced whether it be the "VAT" tax or what ever they wish to call the fees imposed on everyone.

How about the lie that the health care cost will go up a little but by doing so than everyone will have health insurance and it will lower the deficit and eventually cost us less. There is not a mathematician in the world that can figure that one out. You are already paying for those that are not insured. Why should it cost you more and then more and then more over time. Pre existing conditions and no caps (although that is the only things right now that should have been worked on) in themselves is going to add an absolute fortune to the deficit. ou folks are going to be paying for my bad back forever and like health insurance for all....there is no fixing it.

This story has no end. The way this country IS HEADING now cannot be fixed. We will soon be paying out 50 percent of our income just on fees, services, taxes, what ever you wish to call it.

Is that what you want. To be like Brittan at, what, 48% plus plus plus before you see a dime of your money. How about the other countries. As high as 56 percent of their money is gone before they see, it.

You tell me how the housing market is going to pick up and stay up. Eventually a 150,000 dollar home might still say 150,000 but in reality it will be the equivalent of 4 to 500 grand. Go to Germany. My daughter worked for a pharmaceutical company over there. They paid for her apartment...nice place....550,000.00. 1500 square feet. No, not a luxury condo down town. In that area it was the average apartment.

Like I said. This can go on for days. We have been lied to. Conned, deceived. Belittled and any other name you wish to put to it. The cockiest President of all time. Trust me. His backside still stinks like everyone else.

Facts folks. Not hyped up lying bull. You all really need to take a serious look at what is taking place before you want to walk up to the President and kiss him.

Heads twisted around, backwards, stuck up where. ne might want to take a look in the mirror before making those kind of statement.

As I said in an other thread. This is a home inspection board. What does this have to do with home inspection.

Really. Stop. Think. Smell the air. If you are wondering what stinks look and see what is happening to the country that was once the controlling factor of the worlds economy. That is about to end. Anything to this importance that will affect life in the United States for the rest of all time should have been voted on by the people of the United States. Not the people that this will never affect in anyway.

Take a look around the world. If you still do not see what it has to do with home inspection....just wait...you will for sure. Oh wait. Some of us will be gone soon and we won't have to worry about it.

Corn Walker

What do you think is going to happen to Mass now the Government is not going to bail them out of the mess they put themselves in. It is the highest priced and highest taxed state in the US. If it were not for the rest of the US bailing Mass out fr the past years they would have floundered long ago.

The spend and worry about it later take care of everyone and supply all kinds of services California is about to fold as well.

What should have been addressed was the millions and millions of folks slowly, actually quickly, getting older toward that non working age and then living for decades after. What do you think this country is going to do with the multitude that maybe had money. Lost a good portion and now cannot work anymore. Folks we are talking about a mass amount of old folks. Literally a multitude. Were do the mutiple hundreds of billions a year come from just to take care of those folks that made it the slightest possible for you to be anywhere near some of you are now.

Before anyone attacks anyone else about speaking their mind about the crap that is going on right now. Forget about hatred, red or blue. Step back. See what is taking place rather silently right now all around you and then speak reality.

Think about it.This is not a bunch of crap. Think about it.

I'm done. You can cheer now or later but I am done

Good night.

[John Dirks Jr]

November - thats like tomorrow in terms of political history. History...I think you get my point.

[Matt Fellman]

The pendulum is swinging for sure..... It's pretty annoying to the 80% of the country in the middle of the road. Honestly, it's hard to say which of the previous two administrations is/was worse. I could write pages of complaints about each and fit the good stuff on a cocktail napkin (in the space leftover around my drink).

[Bruce Breedlove]

Save the FIFTH FLAG for the reward I will give you after April 19th. [/b]That fifth flag will be worth thousands of dollars to you to show my thanks for your participation in sending a clear message to our government that the Silent Majority in this country will not tolerate the direction America is heading.


That sounds tempting but I am still waiting for my $1,000 check from Bill Gates for forwarding his e-mail to everyone I know so he could Beta test his new e-mail tracking software. And I still haven't gotten the $5.5 million promised to me by the daughter of a Nigerian king.


Step 3.[/B] Forward this email to your family and friends, everyone on your e-mail lists, and place it on all the chat rooms you frequent. . . .
Forwarded from:Dr. Ignatius Piazza, owner Frontsight


OK, that sounds like a chain letter. Aren't those things illegal?

[James Foy]

Glad to see such a lively discussion. Hard to argue which of our past administrations was worst. But, we might as well do our patriotic duty and bury DC in mail, on the anniversary of the 'shot heard round the world'.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Maybe you can help me, since I can't get any answers from anyone else and you seem to be active and informed.

What freedoms have we lost since Obama became president? I'm sure there are several, seeing how large and loud and angry the protests are, I just don't know what they are.

I apologize if this request is too basic; I've tried using the Google but I must not be putting in the right search words.

I am wondering that as well. I still live my life the same way with no known restrictions hindering me and to the best of my knowledge, so does everybody else.

[Vern Heiler]

Perhaps we should print an equal number of pictures of the Titanic’s stern as it was slipping into the abbess. The same direction the country was heading with an arrogant fool at the helm who believed the ship was unsinkable.

Trying to creep into fixing health care is like trying to pull a one wheeled wagon. Destined to fail, which is exactly was some wish to see.

[John Arnold]

...
Forwarded from:Dr. Ignatius Piazza, owner Frontsight



Firearms "Disneyland" Fraud Case Settles for $8M (http://www.onpointnews.com/NEWS/firearms-qdisneylandq-fraud-case-settles-for-8m.html)

[Ted Menelly]

Perhaps we should print an equal number of pictures of the Titanic’s stern as it was slipping into the abbess. The same direction the country was heading with an arrogant fool at the helm who believed the ship was unsinkable.

Trying to creep into fixing health care is like trying to pull a one wheeled wagon. Destined to fail, which is exactly was some wish to see.

And as it was written and as for how it will be paid for....it should fail completely. The biggest spending bill and taxing bill in all of US history and literally.......voted on knowing that it was a bad plan and we would fix it later.....Yeah...Right. There is not going to be any fixing. The dem leadership sold all the dems that voted on this bill the fact that "vote it all in now (because something has to be done) and then we will fix it later"

That is an absolute fact. No matter how much in this bill you do not agree with "vote yes on it now and we will fix it later. Lets see. Vote it into absolute law so matter whether anything gets fixed in it or not it will be absolute law. The biggest flim flam job on the US citizens ever. Again, this is not like the economy going into the tank. You can fix that with a recession every several years. There is no fixing this and it will only mushroom over time. This is worse than personal credit card debt. Well, I have all this money on credit cards to bail me out in the slow times!!!!!!!!!!! Then I guess you just have to worry about it in the busier times....If they come and if you make enough money.

The biggest fiasco ever to come from the US Government.

No, I am not just a dem basher. I am neither a dem nor a republican or a straight out conservative.

[mathew stouffer]

What freedoms have we lost. Well let's see...when the federal government fines you for not buying something from a private corporation, that would be a lost freedom. But that is according to our constitution, and what does that piece of conservative rag know.

[mathew stouffer]

So you agree with the feds fining people for not having health insurance.

[mathew stouffer]

Just like a liberal, always avoiding the answer to a simply question;)

[Ted Menelly]

The morons on this thread, aka TM, JF, et al., need to get out more often. Since last November the country has a new president who is a black man. The sky has not fallen, the flag has not changed, and the constitution (the parts of which the republicans have not already disabled) is still in place.

The fear that motivates you to talk the trash you talk stems solely from your country's current figurehead being someone who is actually more intelligent than you. This is quite the opposite of your choice who presided over the past 8 years of infamy.

People that cannot see the need for health care and civil rights for their fellow citizens are not people we need for companions. Pack your stuff and move elsewhere.

Better yet, come and pay me a personal visit so I can explain it to you up close and personal. Tea bagger assholes . . .:D

AD

For God sakes man. For such an intelligent man you sound like the village idiot at times. Civils rights??????????????????????

The moron you chose to be president and his smiling face little morons in the congress and senate does not have a clue as to how to do anything but serve his own agenda.

Before you go calling people morons I suggest you look strongly in the mirror. This is a no win situation. It has come about all wrong. Were you not one of the biggest for the fiscal responsibility.

How can you be for anything when you know not what anything is all about besides home inspection and codes.

I never once said that there was not a need for health care reform. In moderation, done properly. Find out how it is going to be paid for. No AD. You are the moron. You are about the smartest idiot I have ever talked to. What is your problem. There is nothing I said that was not true. None of it. Everything I said was fact not some fantasy fiction that you seem to love so much. Do you want this country to become yet another member of the EU. Where so many can no ;longer afford to pay for all the free give aways.

Pull your head out of your back side and get off of the last couple hundred years of evolution in the US. For God sake get off the Bush crap. Your man before Bush, which I happen to like those years as well, allowed this country to follow the phony dot com boom and neither he nor anyone else allowed the recession that hit at the end of Clinton's terms to go into a full blown recession and just continued everything that took place and enhanced it twice fold. WE had a very slight recession that should have been huge and a natural correction that is needed in a capitalistic society.

For God sakes man. Put down you Republican and Democrat crap for once in your life and breath the real air. You cannot remain locked in your room forever. It is OK to come out now and then and experience reality. Put the damn books away. Let yourself experience real life and not some fictional readings from a book. There is in fact a world out there that you need to experience.

And you no what. What the hell is this thing about electing the first black President. What the hell does that have to do with anything. The only ones that find that a miracle of sorts are the ones still hung yup on race. Drop the race crap as well. It has nothing to do with the absurd policies he has pushed thru riding on the vapor trails of what you are blinded by.

This is not a white, black, republican, democrat thing and should have never been. This is simply something that was about as poorly planned out as all those folks you despised for buying homes that they could not afford. We cannot afford this as it is. It should have been broken up in pieces and each piece planned thoroughly as to how each program would work.

No one but you is spouting hatred and racialism. Think about it before you respond. What is being talked about is fiscal responsibility. Again is it not what you have been blowing your guts out about Bush and all those nasty republicans. Why is it Mr moron that you cannot see past your own nose. Everything that you are spewing is hatred and racialism. Everything you are spewing is the poor fiscal reponcibility of the republicans but when it becomes a matter of your Moron Obama it seems to be alright. How about the fact the the reality is he did about zero for getting this country back on its feet. When the unemployemnet rate was over 10% all he wanted to do was to see how much more in debt he could push this country. When the banks paid back their money all the Dems wanted to do is to see where esle they could spend it to get another debt accumulating program started.

How about you write a letter with all the knowledge behind you and remind the government.................If you do not have the money to buy it then don't. Don.t ring up the credit card bills. Do not borrow more than you are capable of paying back. Don't start programs that you cannot afford. Don't freaking vote on something that you know needs major fixing and then try to fix it later. They voted it into absolute law. The voted it in because.....................................

"Oh well. Something had to be done." The President even said in a speech that we should vote on this ebven though there are many things that need fixing because iot is high time that this took place. What was the freaking rush. Another 6 months or a year to fix it???????????????? Considering all of time and the length of time it took to get to this point,,,,,,,,what the hell was another 6 months to a year of fixing. What a freaking ass. And you fell for it. What does that make you moron. Oh yeah, that's right. It makes you a freaking moron, moron. What a bunch of freaking Morons. Oh yeah AD. You have no kids so they are not going to feel the brunt of this and you will be dead soon so you don't care but I want to thanks you in advance for your over abundance of ignorance that they will be paying for forever and then some.

I think I am going to go out and accept all those five and ten thousand dollar credits cards being pushed on me weekly. After I ring up about 50,000 I think I will look for a bail out like bankruptcy. Maybe everyone else should do the same thing. Then we can all bring down the US economy for decades to come. Oh wait. That's right moron. The government is already doing that.

I'm done. Gotta get out there for that afternoon inspection so I can make believe I am making an attempt at paying all those credit card debts so it won't look so bad filing.

Schmuck.....get a grip

[James Foy]

I don't understand what "black man" has to do with anything. I voted for Alan Keyes in two California primaries. It has to do with ideology. I suggest reading Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams if you prefer to mix your intelligence and insight with "blackness". These two guys are brilliant.

BTW if you think the Patriot Act is bad (and I think it is), the healthcare is even worse, and run by the IRS, where 'we the people' are guilty until proven innocent. Put another way, it doesn't matter whether or not cattle go to the slaughter house led down the left chute or the right chute, it's still the slaughter house.

[John Arnold]

...I voted for Alan Keyes in two California primaries....

Congratulations. You voted for one of the biggest wack-jobs in American politics, who happens to be black.

How about Dr. Ignatius Piazza, who forwarded your/his 3 Step Program?
$cientologist? Ponzi schemer?

[mathew stouffer]

George Washington himself could not make me a believer of this "health care", hard to even call it that, bill. Let alone, A.D Miller, nothing personal AD;) It is a socialistic ideology, and uncontitutional.

[Michael Thomas]

IMO, depends on what your priorities are, and how much risk you believe individuals ought to accept - for their children and spouses as well as themselves.

It's true that people in Europe pay more taxes, and live at a somewhat lower level of material prosperity than we do - smaller houses, smaller cars, fewer and less expensive toys, and the like.

But It's also true that when my wife's cousin - who lives in the Netherlands - developed a serious heart condition in her early 50s and could no longer work, she didn't have to worry about personal bankruptcy, or her losing her modest home or ready access to adequate medical care, whereas in this country she would almost certainly have experienced all of these problems.

Every once in a while we read a post here about inspector who's been seriously injured or is experiencing a serious illness - sometimes so serious that they may never work again, or will likely be bankrupted by the cost of treatment.

We did dig into our pockets if were able to that month, and send a donation, and often we never hear about that inspector again.

But often what's happened is economic devastation not only for themselves, but for their family, and radically reduced life chances for their children - medical treatment that will be deferred, colleges that will not be attended, and a myriad of other similar difficulties which reduce their life chances and often hold them well short of their potential.

[Troy Eskew]

Nice job A.D. 5 ignorant and/or attacking posts (so far) and not a single question answered. You would make a great politician. Keep spiking that kool-aid. This ******* is going to make some tea.

[MyraAnne Healey]

TM and AD, I must say very, very interesting topic, I was all "eyes" reading it. I wish I could carry on a conversation and be able to say what TM was saying or at least relay what he was saying because thats how I feel, and AD I love the rebuttal and how it came across. Look forward to more posts. Thank you,
Myra in NH;)

[Jerry Peck]

Give it up man about what was.


Ted,

One cannot simply give it up about what was when "what was" is the cause of "what is" and the current administration is being blamed for "what is".

That is totally nuts, both and James Foy for posting that here, and all others who think that one can blame "those in power now" for the mess created by "those in power before".

You guys "need to give it up" and join the real world, work with what we have in making it better ... oh, wait, that is a foreign idea isn't it? To work with what we have to make it better. :rolleyes:

[Billy Stephens]

.
To work with what we have to make it better. :rolleyes:
.
I'm willing ( But You need Something to Work With. ):(
.
* photo taken before Recent Budget Vote.

** names and Districts represented upon request.

*** hint they all start with a D.

*** screens show Important Research in order to conduct The Peoples Business such as Solitary , Face book and Current Baseball Scores.
.

[Corn Walker]

I hate to say it, but the conservatives are right. The growth in entitlement spending is unsustainable as long as tax increases remain the third rail of politics.

The previous administration racked up an enormous bill through the expansion of entitlements (aka Medicare Part D for those not paying attention) as well as through prosecuting two wars while cutting taxes and increasing the size of government. This would be bad enough as it is, if at the same time we didn't suffer through the collapse of the housing market due to a combination of lax regulation, misguided government policies (supported by both democrats and republicans, mind you), and unchecked greed.

The reduction in defense spending (as a percentage of GDP and not including extra-budgetary appropriations for prosecuting the wars) has allowed us to absorb the increased cost of our entitlements, particularly Medicare. Both Medicare and Social Security are underfunded (largely due to tax policy) to meet their projected growth.

So what do we do? Here are some options:

1) Let the entitlements wither and die.
We can save money by skipping the Obama death panels and just cut grandma off now. No more feeding at the government trough that is medicare and medicaid - she'll need to use her personal savings to pay for treatments.

2) Reduce entitlement spending.
There are a few ways to do this. Some involve simply reducing payments for services (part of the current health care legislation). Others by raising the age of eligibility. Or, on a more radical note, we could reduce costs by not paying for ineffective interventions (government meddling in health care).

Conservatives are often opposed to this last idea (similar to negotiating payments for drugs that was nixed in the Medicare Part D bill), often on free market grounds. The idea (which makes no sense to me) is that somehow if I have private health insurance they should be able to save money by negotiating reimbursement rates and deciding which interventions to cover, but any plan offered by the government should be prohibited from doing so. It's like a guarantee that the government plan will waste money.

3) Raise taxes.
Obama is attempting to do this by raising the FICA tax wage base. Currently it is indexed to inflation and the wage base sits at $106,000. But raising taxes is for some reason a terrible thing to do, especially as we continue to prosecute two wars. Instead, let's have a tax cut!

(Ted: I didn't realize Massachusetts had the highest tax rates. Funny thing is, neither does any other organization that tracks income, sales, or property taxes. Don't take my word for it though, search the interwebs yourself.)

As far as the constitutional argument is concerned, anyone raising this objection seriously needs to read the document. In particular pay attention to the clause that specifically says the government can tax the population to provide for the general welfare. You may not agree with it, but it is simply dishonest to say that the government doesn't have this authority when it so plainly does. Think of it this way: everyone is getting taxed for health care. Some people, namely those who have purchased a health care policy, will receive a credit for the tax.

And please, can we stop saying the word "socialist." It has no meaning. All governments that collect taxes and provide services for their people are socialist. Providing for the common defense? That's socialism right there for you. The non-socialist version of it would be the federal government saying, "sure hope that al Quaeda doesn't blow up your town - you guys should do something to protect yourselves."

So if you're going to decry "socialism" then you should take a long, hard look around you and decide when you're going to stop funding those "socialist" fire and police departments, and pull your kids from the "socialist" schools, and stop driving on those "socialist" roads. Let's stop paying for those "socialist" air traffic controllers - I say the airlines and general aviation pilots should have the freedom to fly wherever and whenever and as fast as they want. We all hate the FCC - let he who has the strongest TV and Radio signal win! That's the free-market way to do things.

[Ted Menelly]

Ted,

One cannot simply give it up about what was when "what was" is the cause of "what is" and the current administration is being blamed for "what is".

That is totally nuts, both and James Foy for posting that here, and all others who think that one can blame "those in power now" for the mess created by "those in power before".

You guys "need to give it up" and join the real world, work with what we have in making it better ... oh, wait, that is a foreign idea isn't it? To work with what we have to make it better. :rolleyes:

For God sake Jerry

You call anything than what is going on and is a change good. Why do you wish the US to become another 50% tax country. What would it have hurt to have, after all this time, ride it out another month or a year or even 2 to do things right. Oh yeah. I know why. Because the populous would have come to realize that they were about to become another 50% tax country. Obama spent more money on his campaign than he has checking the facts or taking an effort to get it right. How stupid is that. The real world. I thought everyone escaped to this country , for one of the reason, to get away from taxation with out representation. The deficit was made up of 1/6th of the intake from the American people for health care. That is quadrippling. We will still pay ther smae to the Gov alth care and then multiply that times 4 to do waht they want to do.

Jerry

Growing the IRS by not only sixteen thousand but then all the cars, sick days, holidays, retirement, gas, insurance, their health care cost, office space, heating and cooling desks chairs, printers, computers, laptops etc etc etc etc.

Unless I am mistaken there are 138 0r is it 180 new departments/programs created just to pull this off. You think this is good for the country. This is a freight train running out of control. Stop with the come backs and think, real hard, do some figuring. It is not just health care that has to be paid for . It is the absolute mass of crap and growth of government that comes with it. Grow the Gov that big and then there is no stopping it.

Jerry

Look at the post office. The amount of people it employs and the amount of folks retiring that all have to be paid for quite handsomely for the rest of there days. All the senate and congress that collects money very ridiculous amount of money, California teetering on the edge as well as Massachusetts. How can you possibly even consider that what is taking place is sustainable or even affordable for even a short time. You are looking at the entire restructuring of America and a continuing restructure till the end of day.

If you cannot afford it then figure out what to do to afford it and I am not talking bankrupting the country of the United states.

You were also one of the biggest folks about fiscal responsibility. What happened to that Jerry. Now it is for the better even though it cannot be afforded. Why is that. Because you are an old dog and don't have to worry about seeing what happens. Think of your kids and your grand babies and stop thinking about the rainbows and the angels singing. None of that is going to help your children or grand children unless it is done right and only if it can be afforded.

You must have someone in your house hold that is going to or is getting a decent retirement with benefits. Who do you think is paying for that Jerry. Thatys right . Everyone else. Don't give me the hard work thing. Someone else is either paying for it now or is going to for all time until the recipient drops. Yes Jerry. That is what you are talking about. The number of retirees coming on board that will live at or below the poverty level is staggering. Who is going to pay for all them with your wonderful new programs. Yup Jerry. hat will be another new program. A program that will have to be paid for. We might as well be a communist country where there are different levels in society. Each is given a home. A certain amount of food, free health care and a job that they have for life.

Yes Jerry. There is only one place to go from a full socialist country. Yep, that's it. Communism.

Get a grip. I did get a grip. Sat here and thought for a short period of time about everything that is going on and bingo. You got it. I got a grip all right. I woke up. Smelled the coffee and said. Holly ****. You need to do the same thing Jerry.

Oh....health care is the best thing since sliced bread.......................now pay for it................forever.

[Ted Menelly]

Corn

Taxes????????????? I am talking about taxes and everything named something else. You live in Mass. How do you think Mass has been kept from going under since the enacted their health care program. And yes corn. Helath insurance and cost are more than anywhere in the country.

As far as folks getting a tax credit??????????????????????????// Where do you think the tax credit comes from. Yup. You me and the rest of the US.

Do you seriously think that these wonderful tax credits are free???????????????? Do you think they are just a wonderful thing that God Obama is giving you and everyone else out of his own pocket and the goodness in his heart.

Socialist???????????? Yes socialist. There is a difference with socialistic programs paying for some of the help for its citizens. After that little bit of help when it turns into a major source of livability then it becomes a true socialistic country. Not just helping but paying for their every breath. What do you think happens over time when people keep getting more and more and more benefits and living paid for. Yep. They expect more. In a socialist country. True socialist, they just keep getting more until the rest of the working country can simply not afford it anymore.

After health it will be food, after food it is housing. After housing it is a life long job. Soon there is no one paying for all these programs.....................the country collapses.

Oh wait........wasn't that the welfare program that went bust and almost went completely by the way side. Hm. I wonder why......................Maybe because it could not be afforded anymore and folks were made to go back out and work.

[Ted Menelly]

For all those I may have offended in anyway I am truly sorry. I just do not want our great country to become a welfare state. We all know welfare did not work.

If I ticked anyone off I also apologize as well. If I personally attacked anyone I am also sorry.

If someone has a differing opinion I apologize.

If someone thinks that I do not want to help the helpless in many ways. You are truly wrong.

For those that lost everything I am truly sorry. There are many ways to lose everything and yes, health care is one of them. Not the only one for financial ruin but one of them.

For those that just don't see where all this is headed I am truly sorry.

For those that think they are entitled to be supported by someone else I am truly sorry.

[Billy Stephens]

.
I am truly sorry
.
. I am also sorry.

I am truly sorry.

I am truly sorry.

I am truly sorry.
.
:D We Know Ted, We Know. :D
.

[Jerry Peck]

Sat here and thought for a short period of time ...


Obvious ... that is painfully obvious.

Then you let it spew all over again.

Painfully obvious that you on thought for a short period of time ... or is that the limit of your capability?

It never ceases to amaze me that people can mutter something senseless and then others in the same like mind follow the first lemmings over the edge. Rant about conservativeness and all the odd balls will stand up and rant with you ... and then they all complain about 'what a state of affairs this country is in' when it was all that ranting which led everyone astray into the current state of affairs the country is in.

(sigh)

Some will never get it.

Other will get it but refuse to accept it.

Others will get it and accept it, but disclaim getting it and accepting it because their friends will speak poorly of them in their circles.

Uneasy rider ... kicked old green teeth in the knee and then sped away ... :D YouTube - Charlie Daniels "Uneasy Rider" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMN7fGZW_BY)

[Corn Walker]

Corn

Taxes????????????? I am talking about taxes and everything named something else. You live in Mass. How do you think Mass has been kept from going under since the enacted their health care program. And yes corn. Helath insurance and cost are more than anywhere in the country.

Hey, I'm not the one who claimed Mass had the highest taxes. (Or, for that matter, wrote sentences whose grammar defies parsing.)


It is the highest priced and highest taxed state in the US. If it were not for the rest of the US bailing Mass out fr the past years they would have floundered long ago.

Okay, so you were wrong. Doesn't mean you lose all credibility when you're wrong on the few facts you provide and the rest is hyperbole. Well, not to everyone at least - I can't speak for AD and Jerry but I'm sure there are a few teabaggers on here that still find you credible.

[Ted Menelly]

Obvious ... that is painfully obvious.

Then you let it spew all over again.

Painfully obvious that you on thought for a short period of time ... or is that the limit of your capability?

It never ceases to amaze me that people can mutter something senseless and then others in the same like mind follow the first lemmings over the edge. Rant about conservativeness and all the odd balls will stand up and rant with you ... and then they all complain about 'what a state of affairs this country is in' when it was all that ranting which led everyone astray into the current state of affairs the country is in.

(sigh)


Some will never get it.

Other will get it but refuse to accept it.

Others will get it and accept it, but disclaim getting it and accepting it because their friends will speak poorly of them in their circles.

Uneasy rider ... kicked old green teeth in the knee and then sped away ... :D YouTube - Charlie Daniels "Uneasy Rider" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMN7fGZW_BY)

Sorry Mr Jerry

I have to say it and I am apologizing before hand because I truly feel for you.

Mutter something senseless you poor ignorant soul. I truly never realized how truly your pitiful thought was. I am no longer going to even attempt to talk of this with such a mindless fool. You have been wandering through life thinking you had a clue obviously taking advantage of any poor fools around you thinking that this is the way it should be. I mentioned thinking for a short time in relevance of the time they thought about this foolish act that they have committed.

Welfare state.....do you get it Jerry. Why is it that when you have no damn clue at all you sigh and then say that people that actually have there own thought just don't get it. Oh wait. I know, you are truly blinded by the foolishness that everyone has to and is obligated to take care of anyone that not only cannot (I do believe we should help) but those that will not help themselves because they know some absolutely foolish ass as yourself wants to pay their way.

Help when needed. No help when they don't need it. Do you understand

Welfare State Jerry.

Welfare State Jerry.

Socialist Republic. USSR, Remember Jerry. The Soviet Union collapsed.

And why did they. Hm, I guess it does not take to long to think about that one does it.

Stop with the ignorant comeback about Bush and his eight years. He was not the only one in the Government. Every single one of them had a hand in the last recession.

What is it that you just do not want to see....That you are wrong??????? It is OK to be wrong as long as you do not destroy an entire country.

Oh wait.

Did you complain about the money you were making and give it all back when times were better???

Yep. I did not think so.

Did you take a family in from say, Detroit, that was down on their luck or did you just happily spend your money Jerry and not give a sweat **** about the family in Detroit. Yep, I thought so.

I know you are an old duff. I also know that because you are an old duff you know what a toll that the welfare mentality did to individuals (mostly) and then this country.

USSR Jerry.......It failed....remember. as will all complete socialist states and communist countries. Oops.............Cuba. China is making it because they ave slowly worked and are still working their way out of straight socialism and communism. They are doing quite well. Well.....the government is. The poor slob workers live 8 to a room and only eat and sleep and make next to nothing.

There is only one way to go from here Jerry. Deeper in the hole.

Spew all over again? Only for the sake that poor fools like yourself that have been brainwashed will be able to be healed again and made right.

[Jerry Peck]

Spew all over again?


And all over again.

You can be counted on to spew like that whenever the heat is turned up a little ... not unlike a tea pot whistling when the heat is one and it is full of hot steam ... :rolleyes:

[Michael Thomas]

The "16.500 IRS agents" mentioned in various posts below are a good example of it's hard to have a rational discussion of this stuff:

IRS Expansion | FactCheck.org (http://factcheck.org/2010/03/irs-expansion/)

[Nick Ostrowski]

The "16.500 IRS agents" mentioned in various posts below are a good example of it's hard to have a rational discussion of this stuff:

IRS Expansion | FactCheck.org (http://factcheck.org/2010/03/irs-expansion/)

I'm sure Rush Limbaugh is helping promote this type of inaccuracy. A lot of people listen to him and buy into to his sky-is-falling hysteria lock, stock, and barrel. I've turned him on a couple times and can't get through more than 1 or 2 minutes of his crap.

[Corn Walker]

Ted, I just noticed that some keys on your keyboard don't appear to be working properly. Specifically the punctuation keys have a tendency to stick. Perhaps you should consider a new computer - Apple released their new MacBook Pro line just yesterday. I give them my full endorsement.

[mathew stouffer]

Cute article! "We expect to get a simple form, that we won’t look behind". LOL. Simple and the IRS do not go together. Have you looked at your corporate tax form:) As for the CBO, they are always spot on. Medicare has ended up costing 9x their original score. The following sums up the problem with our fed gov't CBO Director Elmendorf, March 11: CBO has not completed an estimate of all of the discretionary costs that would be associated with H.R. 3590. … [S]uch costs would probably include an estimated $5 billion to $10 billion over 10 years for administrative costs of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).

[Corn Walker]

nice changing of the subject, mathew. you've learned well from your conservative masters.

for the liberals who may not know the ways of the masters, here's what you do:

1) tell a lie
2) repeat the lie
3) inflate the lie
4) if you get caught in the lie, distract others from the lie by pointing out some ephemeral tangential triviality

For example:

1) this new healthcare law will add up to 16500 IRS employees
2) this new healthcare law will add up to 16500 IRS agents
3) this new healthcare law will add 16500 armed bureaucrats to jail you and your family if you don't buy health insurance
4) hey, look here, even the CBO is unsure of the total cost of this thing

I get it, you're angry. You don't know why. Maybe it's because this guy is black (although you'd NEVER admit it to yourself, let alone others). Maybe it's because your own republican party has sold you out to the big money interests like war contractors and wall street. Whatever the issue is or the reasons are, let me set out some things that we should be able to agree on.

1) Obama is an american citizen eligible to be president.
2) Obama is not a racist. He does not hate white people and he does not hate America, nor does he want the terrorists to win.
3) Obama is not a socialist, or a fascist, or a communist, or a nazi. And honestly, admit it now, you don't know the difference anyway.
4) Obama hasn't tried to outlaw your right to own guns. He hasn't turned water cannons on your peaceable and not-so-peaceable demonstrations. He hasn't curtailed your right to free speech. He hasn't even raised your taxes (not to say that he won't in the future, but then that's just you and I guessing more than anything).
5) Obama's policies haven't been much different than those of his predecessors. Look, I don't like this any more than you do (albeit for different reasons), but it's true. The TARP bailout? That was a Bush II administration idea. Drones in Pakistan? Also Bush. Health care expansion? Bush did it with Medicare Part D. Fetid response to Wall St. exercise of political power? You'd have to go back to Eisenhower, and even then...


So please, if you're going to make an argument at least take a second or ten to breathe deeply and figure out what exactly it is that you're so opposed to. Otherwise you just come off looking like that street preacher ranting about the end of times with eyes full of crazy. And you shouldn't be surprised when my kids point at you and ask, "daddy, why is that man not institutionalized when our new universal health care policy can provide him effective medications and therapy?"

[Billy Stephens]

.
nice changing of the subject, mathew. you've learned well from your conservative masters.

for the liberals who may not know the ways of the masters, here's what you do:

1) tell a lie
2) repeat the lie
3) inflate the lie
4) if you get caught in the lie, distract others from the lie by pointing out some ephemeral tangential triviality


.
Corn,

That's The Pot Calling The Kettle Black ( is it not? )
.
Both Parties have Spent like Drunken Sailors. ( and spin The Facts )

How can a Bill

( supported by 41% of the Voters )

mandated by a President that garnered

52.87% of the Voters ( didn't even listen to the people that voted for him. )
* He does Represent All The People or is suppose to.

be The Will of The People?

Don't be Surprised when my Grand Children point at you and ask How Do I Pay For This ?
.

[Corn Walker]

Billy, you're not making sense.

What I pointed out is that on the right, many people are opposed to the bill. That's fine. But when you ask what they don't like about it, they make up sh*t. They talk about things that are simply not true, such as "death panels" or "16,500 armed bureaucrats" or "jail time for non-compliance." And when you point out to them that these things are not true, they change the subject (usually to something either not true or irrelevant).

All I'm saying is, if you want to have a dialog, just figure out what exactly it is you're opposed to.

And for Christ's sake, stop quoting numbers that are either misleading or meaningless or outright lies. 41% of voters are in favor of the legislation. So? Does that mean 59% are against it? No. There's a third option: no opinion. And a fourth option: neither in favor or against. And a fifth option: did not respond.

And of those people against it, it doesn't say WHY they're against it. There are many liberals against the legislation because they see it as a giveaway to the insurance industry and wanted a single-payer program. They're against it for entirely different reasons than you are.

And what does the plurality of voters for Obama have to do with anything? Should Bush have only done what Gore wanted since he got fewer votes than Gore? Should Obama take a poll before signing any legislation? Should the US move to a direct democracy rather than the representative republic?

If the answer to these questions is "no" then what's your point?

If you don't like Obama's policies, there's a simple fix for that. Find a candidate you like better, convince the majority of voting Americans that the candidate is better, and vote for that candidate in 2012. What's more, you get the chance to manifest your disagreement with policy every four years. But this simple-minded parroting of dishonest, disgraceful, and seditious talking points created by the worst elements of the right wing movement is getting nauseating. I'd rather file my taxes.

[Billy Stephens]

Billy, you're not making sense.

What I pointed out is that on the right, many people are opposed to the bill. That's fine. But when you ask what they don't like about it, they make up sh*t. They talk about things that are simply not true, such as "death panels" or "16,500 armed bureaucrats" or "jail time for non-compliance." And when you point out to them that these things are not true, they change the subject (usually to something either not true or irrelevant).

All I'm saying is, if you want to have a dialog, just figure out what exactly it is you're opposed to.

And for Christ's sake, stop quoting numbers that are either misleading or meaningless or outright lies. 41% of voters are in favor of the legislation. So? Does that mean 59% are against it? No. There's a third option: no opinion. And a fourth option: neither in favor or against. And a fifth option: did not respond.

And of those people against it, it doesn't say WHY they're against it. There are many liberals against the legislation because they see it as a giveaway to the insurance industry and wanted a single-payer program. They're against it for entirely different reasons than you are.

And what does the plurality of voters for Obama have to do with anything? Should Bush have only done what Gore wanted since he got fewer votes than Gore? Should Obama take a poll before signing any legislation? Should the US move to a direct democracy rather than the representative republic?

If the answer to these questions is "no" then what's your point?

If you don't like Obama's policies, there's a simple fix for that. Find a candidate you like better, convince the majority of voting Americans that the candidate is better, and vote for that candidate in 2012. What's more, you get the chance to manifest your disagreement with policy every four years. But this simple-minded parroting of dishonest, disgraceful, and seditious talking points created by the worst elements of the right wing movement is getting nauseating. I'd rather file my taxes.
.
First You Say Someone has Wrong Numbers.

Then ( Correct Numbers ) are useless.

I'm Against The Bill ( if you want to see the very best case of a Government Ran Heath Care Facility visit your Locale VA. Hospital )

Then the Insults of simple-minded parroting talking points ( We Calling The Kettle Black Again ? ) Yep Nauseating.

:D Filing out your Taxes, can you chip in a Little More to Reduce The Deficit? :D
..

[Corn Walker]

.
First You Say Someone has Wrong Numbers.

Then ( Correct Numbers ) are useless.

I'm Against The Bill ( if you want to see the very best case of a Government Ran Heath Care Facility visit your Locale VA. Hospital )

Then the Insults of simple-minded parroting talking points ( We Calling The Kettle Black Again ? ) Yep Nauseating.

:D Filing out your Taxes, can you chip in a Little More to Reduce The Deficit? :D
..

First I say someone is parroting made-up lies. It's one thing to have a true disagreement about something (i.e. how much the legislation will increase/decrease the deficit) and then provide arguments backing up your point of view. It's another to make up numbers (aka lie) and then use those made up numbers with no basis in reality as scare tactics.

Second, the numbers you're quoting aren't in any way shape or form related to the fantasy 16,500 number. What level of education do you have? Fourth grade? It's a completely different subject... oh, wait, I get it. You got me, you sneaky bastard. You changed the subject on me when I wasn't paying attention.

I'm tired of arguing with grade school intellects and I'm bored with typing. Let me know when you're ready to come to the table with a real argument, not some conspiracy theory new world order crap you heard elsewhere.

By the way, my local VA hospital provides excellent care. If you're ever in the area let me know and I'll give you a tour.

[Billy Stephens]

First I say someone is parroting made-up lies. It's one thing to have a true disagreement about something (i.e. how much the legislation will increase/decrease the deficit) and then provide arguments backing up your point of view. It's another to make up numbers (aka lie) and then use those made up numbers with no basis in reality as scare tactics.

Second, the numbers you're quoting aren't in any way shape or form related to the fantasy 16,500 number. What level of education do you have? Fourth grade? It's a completely different subject... oh, wait, I get it. You got me, you sneaky bastard. You changed the subject on me when I wasn't paying attention.

I'm tired of arguing with grade school intellects and I'm bored with typing. Let me know when you're ready to come to the table with a real argument, not some conspiracy theory new world order crap you heard elsewhere.

By the way, my local VA hospital provides excellent care. If you're ever in the area let me know and I'll give you a tour.
.
Looks Like Ted isn't the only Ranter among us.
* typical Elite Liberal Rhetoric
** if you disagree with ME you be a Moron. :rolleyes:
And or Your Parentage is in Question. :p

***Are You a Veteran Receiving care there?
or just someone trying to Parrot a Published Propaganda Talking Point?

So You Have You or Have You Not ( Personally ) Been a Patient at this Excellent care VA Hospital ?

*** not arguing ( as you have long ago made up your mind.)
.

[Dan Harris]

[QUOTE=Corn Walker;127795]

I get it, you're angry. You don't know why. Maybe it's because this guy is black (although you'd NEVER admit it to yourself, let alone others).

QUOTE]

Give me a friggen break, WHY is it when someone disagrees does this crap come up?

While waiting for a better slam, or the next slam , I'm going back to finish listening to Palens tea party speach, then on to my next job listening to Hannity :D

[Ken Rowe]

It is a socialistic ideology, and uncontitutional.

Everything we as Americans pay taxes for is considered socialism. Police and fire protection, street and highway maintenance etc. It's funny how many people I hear complaining that the government does nothing to fix their streets or protect their children, then in the next breath call health care reform "socialism" in a negative tone.




Growing the IRS by not only sixteen thousand but then all the cars, sick days, holidays, retirement, gas, insurance, their health care cost, office space, heating and cooling desks chairs, printers, computers, laptops etc etc etc etc.

That's 16,000 more jobs for us Americans. That's 16,000 more cars for our American auto makers to build. Not to mention the additional American construction workers to build the buildings they'll need. You make it sound as if 16,000 IRS agents will be tracking you down.

[Corn Walker]

Give me a friggen break, WHY is it when someone disagrees does this crap come up?

Why? My what a short memory you must have.

YouTube - Obama And The White Vote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKX2LVaRnk8)
YouTube - Obama faces racism in West Virginia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-q4MDQ0cDI)
YouTube - Can Obama win white vote in Mountain State? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1uA30cXWkI)
YouTube - Obama And The White Vote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKX2LVaRnk8)

Look, whenever people have a difficult time saying WHAT they disagree with it's usually because they don't actually know. Sometimes, but not always, it's because they are uncomfortable with some aspect of the person. Maybe it's race, or sex, or religion, or whatever, but they will never say this and some honestly don't realize it. Instead they will stammer and dodge and try and fail to find something, anything, concrete they can disagree with that supports the general "uncomfortable" feeling they have.

Now many of the teabaggers will say he's "taking away our freedoms." Well, which freedoms specifically and how? Our freedoms are all there, listed in the constitution. Which freedoms are now gone?

Some will say he's saddling our children with debt. Yes, he is, following in the great tradition of Reagan and Bush the Elder and Bush the Younger (I was going to include Clinton but gosh darn it if he didn't actually balance the budget and reduce the deficit). But it's not like he created this budget deficit out of a surplus. He inherited an economy in free fall, and some of you would like to pretend things were great until he moved into town. Perhaps you don't remember but the economy was in the tank in 2008, before Obama was elected. It continued to tank in 2009, before Obama passed any policies. It has actually started to improve a bit since then.

If Obama instead said he was going to balance the budget by increasing taxes and allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire (which some republicans claim is also increasing taxes), would you honestly be cheering him on? No, the only thing that would make you happy is abolishing the IRS, and f*ck grandma and her social security and her medicare. She should have saved more for her retirement (actually, she did, but half of it was lost in a Ponzi scheme and the other half is only worth 45% now post-crash).

Barack Obama campaigned on the issue of universal health care and people voted for him anyway. Why act all surprised when he fulfills a campaign promise? You didn't vote for him? Well, sorry, your guy lost and the winner in November 2008 is trying to do the stuff he said he would. If in 2008 the majority of Americans truly wanted their next president to adopt the Republican agenda they should have elected John McCain.

[mathew stouffer]

Corn,
Ask me a question and I will answer it. Change of subject, I was simply responding to the article. And I do believe there will be an additional hiring of IRS agents likely more then 16.5 thousand. Do you really have faith in our government to prognosticate any type of financial related issue. I don't, simply based on their track record. So ask me a question, unlike a liberal, I will be able to answer it. But let me ask a simple one to you first, how are we going to pay for this health care mess.

[mathew stouffer]

Federal gov't fining people for not having health care. That is a loss of a freedom, Corn.

[Billy Stephens]

.
My what a short memory you must have.
.
As You were saying? :D
.
YouTube - Obama Is Going To Pay For My Gas And Mortgage!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI)
.

[Corn Walker]

Federal gov't fining people for not having health care. That is a loss of a freedom, Corn.

Sorry if I'm being a bit obtuse here, but are you equating higher taxes with a loss of freedoms? Or something else? (I use the word "taxes" incidentally because if you read the bill it's implemented as a tax penalty, much like the "subsidies" low income residents will receive are implemented as a tax credit.)

Is it because the health insurance you will be required to purchase is from a private company? Would it still be a "loss of freedom" if, in providing for the general welfare as explicitly authorized in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution of the United States, the Congress were to levy a tax (also authorized under the same section) and implement a single-payer system?

Do you consider taxes for the Interstate Highway System or to support our Armed Forces in non-combat deployments a "loss of freedom?" How about taxes supporting the funding of the Centers for Disease Control?

I'm not being facetious - I honestly don't see the difference between these government expenditures that provide for the general welfare and universal health coverage that also provides for the general welfare. I much prefer universal benefits like those listed above to the typical congressional pork that benefits a few connected individuals and companies.

[Ted Menelly]

Free fall economy

Should have left it to collapse. The natural correction would have taken place.

16,000

Sorry folks the words came directly out of the mans mouth. The lord himself Obama. I will try to find the broadcast. Also no matter what you read elsewhere it is taking place. It is the only way they have to POLICE this program folks.

Rush

Loud mouth hysterical fool and goes overboard on everything. I don't talk crap. Its real life.


Get over Obama winning the election and shut up and do as he wishes.

That may not have been the direct words but pretty damn close.. Lets see. One does not agree with whats going on but "shut up and go along for the ride. What the hell is wrong with you folks. In case I slipped into a coma overnight I do believe this is still the US.

Black president

Who gives a sweet ****. KI could care less if he is black, white, pink, purple or blue. Last time I checked he was a mut just like me. Black man? Why? Because he looks like and African American. Like I said. Who gives a sweet ****.

Telling lies

Wake up and smell the coffee. Decade after decade after decade after decade the Gov keeps growing. This will be the largest growth in Government of , hm, I just don't know....since I, the old bastard was born....at least. Since when does one get so blind because someone with a slight majority gets elected and we are suppose to just agree no matter how wrong.

USSR

No hype. No bull, Just a fact. The people (kind of) rose up and demanded a fair share and lots and lots of pay for me crap so all things will be equal and anyone with anything must give it to someone else.......................Freaking failed

Spew lies.............................get off it folks. You may think the heavens opened up and the lord stepped on earth and he can do no wrong but I hate to tell you this but your program that you think everyone in the United states deserves to have because they are so God like and wonderful.................................They should have implemented programs slowly over a long period of time before just dropping the hammer down to make sure it was AFFORDABLE,

The reason for the big rush is because they did not want the momentum to slow to much or they and their program would have been up shits creek once the real figures and stories that are coming out now about just how it is going to be AFFORDED.

Do all of you think that everyone should be completely equal and if one person can afford something then everyone else should get it for free.


THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. IT DOES NOT STOP HERE AND WILL CONTINUE FOR ALL TIME UNTIL THERE IS NO UPPER, MIDDLE OR LOWER INCOME. EVERYONE WILL GET A PLACE TO LIVE, A CAR TO DRIVE, FULL HEALTH CARE, FREE FOOD VOUCHERS............SHOULD I KEEP GOING.

We live in a free capitalistic country. Instead of being so damn hot in changing it why not just move into another country that is already like it instead of forcing half of 300,000,000 to sit down, shut up, sit back and take it no matter what it is.

Do you really think that Obama getting his health care bill has anything to do with bringing this country back on its feet, lowering unemployment or anything else but growing government, raising taxes, fees....what ever you want to call it. He is going to be the one that is responsible that stagnates so much, including your beloved housing industry all to say that he was the one that got the health care bill thru.

Stop going to this article or that Democrat or that republican or this news show or that news show. Put 2 and 2 together and tell me ...................... is it really still adding up to 4

I think you will find once you stop defending the poor black man, as some are so pressed at discussing, (who gives a sweet crap) where he was voted in and we should shut up, he used that line on John McCain, "John, the election is over....I one" Who freaking cares. That is suppose to make it all right. No it does not. This, now anyway, is a free market capitalistic economy, for now anyway, and we all have free speech, for now anyway, and have the right to voice our opinions, for now anyway, and we should to keep foolish mistakes from happening.

Health care

Cap and trade

Whats next.

I said I was not discussing this anymore and I will not.

Now you can cheer.

My opinions folks. Based on facts. Not some glorious pie in the sky...everyone will soon have it all, bullshit.

This only leads us further down the road of no return the way it is. Fix it and then discuss it. Until then r Obama has won the election and I will shut up..................Right.

[Ted Menelly]

Sorry if I'm being a bit obtuse here, but are you equating higher taxes with a loss of freedoms? Or something else? (I use the word "taxes" incidentally because if you read the bill it's implemented as a tax penalty, much like the "subsidies" low income residents will receive are implemented as a tax credit.)

Is it because the health insurance you will be required to purchase is from a private company? Would it still be a "loss of freedom" if, in providing for the general welfare as explicitly authorized in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution of the United States, the Congress were to levy a tax (also authorized under the same section) and implement a single-payer system?

Do you consider taxes for the Interstate Highway System or to support our Armed Forces in non-combat deployments a "loss of freedom?" How about taxes supporting the funding of the Centers for Disease Control?

I'm not being facetious - I honestly don't see the difference between these government expenditures that provide for the general welfare and universal health coverage that also provides for the general welfare. I much prefer universal benefits like those listed above to the typical congressional pork that benefits a few connected individuals and companies.

Free goodies, tax increase or some other word the gov will use...VAT tax to pay for it.

Tax subsidies..........where the hell do you think the money will come from. You tree in the back yard

Where do you really think all this money is going to come from. When the multitude show what their monthly bills are and they truly have nothing left to buy health insurance....where the hell do you think the money will come from. This country could not afford welfare. Where do you think the money will come from. As far as the IRS.....you just talked about this that thjose 16000 IRS folks was a bunch of crap. Where do you think all the auditors that Obama talked about are coming from if those 16000 are made up freaking lies.

As far as you being OK with the IRS have a heavier harder hitting position in the US........You are shitting me right? You want and or like that idea ??????? ???????????????????????????????

The purple or what ever color that is.

Providing for the general WELFARE ??????????????????????????????? Thats right you me your neighbor and everyone else will pay MORE for health insurance, pay more for most of the goods they buy, overwhealm the medical industry with millions of people flooding the doctors offices and hospitalsd demanding care becasue they deserve it and it is their right.

Damn it. Someone put an end to this thread or just shoot me so I do not have to read anymore blind bullshit.

Sorry

No direct attack meant on you or any others. You are convinced (and that is sad) that the multitude is deserving of anything that anyone else has (no matter what the outcome). It is your opinion and I have mine.

I saw a lady not being able to stand crying out loud (yeah yeah on television) scraming and crying to her daughter that now that Obama has one that she would never have to worry about he rent or any bills or food ever again.

I literally cried like a baby watching that. Cried because I felt for her so bad and cried because at that moment in life she had been completely convinced of it and thought that her day had finally come and would be taken care of forever.

I am not kidding folks. The tears were flowing down this old bastards face. The saddest thing I ever saw or heard.

Again (yes Billy, I know) I am sorry. I won't trouble you folks anymore with this.

[Corn Walker]

Ted, Ted, Ted, poor, dear old Ted. I'm sorry that my lack of understanding is causing you such distress.

I am not arguing that the tax money is coming out of nowhere. I know all too well when I write that check tonight from whence the tax money cometh.

My question is simply how "more taxes" specifically relates to "loss of freedom" and whether other government programs that provide for the common welfare and are paid for by taxes also constitute a "loss of freedom." That is, is it specifically the health care policy of this president that is a "loss of freedom" or does that "loss of freedom" also apply to the Medicare Part D program passed by the previous administration? Is there a specific class of government policies (e.g. healthcare) that are a "loss of freedom" as opposed to other government spending (e.g. interstate highways) that are not a "loss of freedom?"

Most of us honest Americans here pay taxes. My tax money goes for some programs I like and for some I don't like. I don't consider the programs I like "all good" and the programs I don't like "loss of freedoms" so I'm wondering if there is a general consistency to the point of view that taxes, regardless of their reason, constitutes a "loss of freedom," if there is a class of spending that is a "loss of freedom," or if there are specific spending programs that are individually a "loss of freedom."

I've already agreed with the point that this healthcare proposal will cost money that we will need to pay in the form of higher taxes. Do you think that's still in dispute or is your outrage meter simply stuck on "high" like your punctuation keys are stuck on your keyboard?

[mathew stouffer]

Ted the difference is simple. The government is forcing you to purchase something from a private company. This is the first time in the history of our country this is happening. Comparing "consider taxes for the Interstate Highway System or to support our Armed Forces in non-combat deployments a "loss of freedom?" How about taxes supporting the funding of the Centers for Disease Control," is apples to oranges. The aforementioned are specifically addressed in the constitution. Forcing someone to purchase health care simply because they exist is not, and it is beyond a stretch to attempt to lump is into commerce. The loss of freedom is this, you just lost your choice not to carry health care. An applicable annology is forcing you to exercise at a private gym because it will reduce health care costs and if you dont provide a log of your routine you get fined. It is the exact same thing. ps sorry i can't spell.:o

[MyraAnne Healey]

Hey Dan, my next job is to listen to Rush :D

Myra in NH

[Ted Menelly]

Ted the difference is simple. The government is forcing you to purchase something from a private company. This is the first time in the history of our country this is happening. Comparing "consider taxes for the Interstate Highway System or to support our Armed Forces in non-combat deployments a "loss of freedom?" How about taxes supporting the funding of the Centers for Disease Control," is apples to oranges. The aforementioned are specifically addressed in the constitution. Forcing someone to purchase health care simply because they exist is not, and it is beyond a stretch to attempt to lump is into commerce. The loss of freedom is this, you just lost your choice not to carry health care. An applicable annology is forcing you to exercise at a private gym because it will reduce health care costs and if you dont provide a log of your routine you get fined. It is the exact same thing. ps sorry i can't spell.:o


My entire point is that it is to simple to understand

Understand. What is there not to understand. Every single event in this health care plan was a fraud and a lie. I could give a crap about freedom or what pres was or was not elected.

This is going to be a financial scourge on all in the nation. **** rolls down hill. It hits the top folks to take care of the lower folks on that totem pole. By the time everyone is included everyone will see exactly what is happening.

Corn keeps talking of freedom because someone already mentioned it. He also keeps talking about he knows he is going to pay more taxes.....that is just a minute part of the expense. one of my biggest beefs is the growth and strength of the IRS

The mention of "most of us here are honest tax payers" ???????? Besides medicare, Medicaid and social security the vast amount of us pays about zero federal taxes and everyone is already complaining about what they must pay to uncle SAM. Wait till the tax increases come. Wait till the unheard of cost of health insurance comes. Wait till the cost of all the goods we buy comes.

Shoot. ATT is raising the billed services on my cell phone by seven percent to recover what the gov is now charging them for a franchise fee in Texas. My bill is going up 7 percent. That is just for the cell phone. Just wait till all the fees come in. The vast majority of folks will not be able to pay for all there health insurance once the cost goes up. Then the gov will be taxing them more to pay for all those that are getting tax credits to pay for their health care.

ANGRY ?????????????????????? Wait a little while even folks like corn and Jerry and AD are going to be furious ab out paying more for everything to cover this absolutely enormous bill in front of us........Oh yeah, and the gov still has to be able to afford to run on the existing funking of all the programs. Oh yeah.......No one has even addressed the fact that the enormous debt that we are in still has to be paid back along with all of this tremendous expense. I guess the taxes will be going up even more

And talk about angry. Who gives a damn about punctuation on here. This forum is more talking to one another than writing. I could care less what my punctuation is or is not on here or my spelling for that matter.

Oh yeah

"Ted, Ted, Ted, poor, dear old Ted"

Your kidding right?

That is as bad if not worse than Jerry's pitiful sighing. He does that when he is frustrated about being confronted with the truth and really has nothing to say on the matter and cannot stand being in the wrong. The sighing and the belittling starts.

Screwed up plan. Completely screwed up plan and should have been another year in the making before anything got voted on or implemented. I am shocked that 50 % of the population is sitting around saying to their buddies.

"Oh well, something had to be done. I guess it was time no matter what action they took"

That is so damn sad. Kinda like that woman I mentioned earlier and it was not the woman posted earlier. Tears to my eyes/.

[Dan Harris]

Why? My what a short memory you must have.

YouTube - Obama And The White Vote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKX2LVaRnk8)
YouTube - Obama faces racism in West Virginia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-q4MDQ0cDI)
YouTube - Can Obama win white vote in Mountain State? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1uA30cXWkI)
YouTube - Obama And The White Vote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKX2LVaRnk8)


.

What a crock.. You are basing your infomation on 4, 2 are the same,
youtubes from some select interviews of hilbillies and rednecks.:D

Now if you said I don't like him due to him having big ears, or he is a man child, as Rush calls him, then I'm guilty. :D :D

[Corn Walker]

Ted the difference is simple. The government is forcing you to purchase something from a private company. This is the first time in the history of our country this is happening. Comparing "consider taxes for the Interstate Highway System or to support our Armed Forces in non-combat deployments a "loss of freedom?" How about taxes supporting the funding of the Centers for Disease Control," is apples to oranges. The aforementioned are specifically addressed in the constitution. Forcing someone to purchase health care simply because they exist is not, and it is beyond a stretch to attempt to lump is into commerce. The loss of freedom is this, you just lost your choice not to carry health care. An applicable annology is forcing you to exercise at a private gym because it will reduce health care costs and if you dont provide a log of your routine you get fined. It is the exact same thing. ps sorry i can't spell.:o

Mathew,

I didn't reference the commerce clause. That's the mistake a lot of people who don't know the constitution make - thinking that the federal government only has power with respect to regulating interstate commerce. Read Article I Section 8 (below is just the beginning of it):


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

What this clause, and the SCOTUS interpretation of it, is saying is that the Congress has the right to tax the citizens of the states provided those taxes are uniform (i.e. can't favor California over Texas) and the taxes are specifically to pay the debts of the US, to provide for the common defense (later in the same section the Army and Navy are mentioned specifically), or to provide for the general Welfare (i.e. can't tax just to pay for Boehner's tanning sessions).

Now for the appropriateness of the analogy. You are not "forced" to buy healthcare any more than you are "forced" to use the interstate highway system. However, you are taxed whether you do either of them or not. In the case of the highways, well, you're stuck with paying that tax. In the case of healthcare, you can get out of paying the tax penalty by showing you have credible coverage.

So back to my original question: if this had been a single-payer plan rather than using private insurance companies (recall during the election campaign that Obama pledged you could keep your insurance) would you have the same objection? That is, are you opposed to universal health coverage on principle or specifically because this particular legislation requires you to buy private insurance?

Having a small business I've seen health premiums rise by double digits for nine years running. Each year we reduced coverage just to keep the increases manageable. For two years I was personally in the private market and my rates rose 51% (no typo there) between year 1 and year 2 without any change in family size or health or hitting "trigger" ages.

I am in favor of universal coverage because I don't believe being able to afford medical care should be a function of whether you were lucky enough to have been born into a position of wealth or have a job that provides coverage. I don't believe people who are unfortunate enough to fall ill should lose their house or their savings to pay for treatment. And yet many people find themselves in that very position when they're dropped from the plan after an illness.

According to an article in the American Journal of Medicine over 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills. And who do you think pays for those bankruptcies? It doesn't matter if you pay for it on the front side (health insurance or tax penalties) or on the back side (increased charges and fees to cover uninsured and bankruptcy) you will pay. I would hope we'd all be less worried about how we pay and more concerned with not paying too much.

[Corn Walker]

What a crock.. You are basing your infomation on 4, 2 are the same,
youtubes from some select interviews of hilbillies and rednecks.:D

Now if you said I don't like him due to him having big ears, or he is a man child, as Rush calls him, then I'm guilty. :D :D

I don't know why you don't like him and frankly, I don't care. The point is that there are people out there who don't like him because of his race. Of those, some are honest about it, some are dishonest about it, and some don't realize that's why they don't like him. But to pretend that racism isn't a part of the anti-Obama movement is simply dishonest. That may not be your reason for disliking him, but it most certainly is for some others.

And don't forget, this wave of being anti-Obama started well before the healthcare debates. What I can't figure out is if the extremists are manipulating the conservatives, or if it's the other way 'round.

[Dan Harris]

I don't know why you don't like him and frankly, I don't care. The point is that there are people out there who don't like him because of his race. Of those, some are honest about it, some are dishonest about it, and some don't realize that's why they don't like him. But to pretend that racism isn't a part of the anti-Obama movement is simply dishonest. That may not be your reason for disliking him, but it most certainly is for some others.

And don't forget, this wave of being anti-Obama started well before the healthcare debates. What I can't figure out is if the extremists are manipulating the conservatives, or if it's the other way 'round.

I honestly don't pay attention of the race of who likes or dis-likes him/his policies, BUT after thinking about it, I sure see a lot of blacks, Reps and Dem's, speaking out against him/his policies.
What are they called?

[Dan Harris]

I honestly don't pay attention of the race of who likes or dis-likes him/his policies, BUT after thinking about it,
I sure see a lot of blacks, Reps and Dem's, speaking out against him/his policies.
What are they called?


Corn.. Never mind, Hannity just asked some black dude this question, his answer was, they are the racists..:D

Talk about name calling, You call tea party people, Tea Baggers?
Hick me found out the other day from listening to Rush, this a gross sexual action.

[Ted Menelly]

I don't know why you don't like him and frankly, I don't care. The point is that there are people out there who don't like him because of his race. Of those, some are honest about it, some are dishonest about it, and some don't realize that's why they don't like him. But to pretend that racism isn't a part of the anti-Obama movement is simply dishonest. That may not be your reason for disliking him, but it most certainly is for some others.

And don't forget, this wave of being anti-Obama started well before the health care debates. What I can't figure out is if the extremists are manipulating the conservatives, or if it's the other way 'round.


Corn...hopefully friend and not foe....what seems to be the hang up on race. Whether you are white, black, brown pink or blue or just redneck what gives. The only reason people are still hung up on race is due to the fact that there is always someone using it as a ploy.

Prejudiced. For Gods sakes man ever person on the face of the planet is prejudice against something. Obama may be what ever race or color he wants to be. He is a mut. I am a mut. You are a mut. We are all muts. We gotta drop it sooner or later. If someone IS predudiced against on a legal mattter then they can and most likely will pay for it. A very very very large segment of the united states (I did not stutter) is beyond that. Even if they are just accepting it or they truly do not care of the color or race they are still either over or getting over it and will continue that way for ever and ever.

I don't like folks for the food they eat and the spices in those foods. They stink. Cannot deny it I am predudice against them because they stink not their race or color. I cannot stand being around them. Does that make me a bad person. I know a lot of different nationalities where I like some folks and dislike others. As far as blacks, African American or what ever the particular individual wished to be recognized as, And just simply do not like, do like, despise or love some and then others I care nothing for.

Call it prejudiced if you like but that goes for redneck, white necks, crackers (Sorry bad white folk, common term in Florida that I never liked), Hispaniola, Italians, Jews, Arabs and any other race color or religion.

I personally do not like Obama but that has absolutely nothing to do with me liking, disliking, loving or hating his policies. I think he is one of the cockiest men I have ever watched talk walk or just pose with his head sideways and slightly turned up with his eyes slightly fluttering (now try and tell me you have not seen that pose a thousand times). That is a practiced trait that I do not like in anyone that does it. Its fake, just like I think he is.

He is the type of man that always looked for the folks that were around him to be slightly off guard all the time that he could have his way with. If they did not play they did not hang with him. That still has nothing to do with his color, race, religion, nationality, upbringing or anything else you may wish to throw in there. I know people from all backgrounds and upbringings and races and nationalities and religions. Every one of them is predudice against some look, some color or some action or religion in some way or another.......................So what. It is time to stop dwelling on it. It is what it is and will always be. If you live to be 1,000n years old you will still see some signs of it.

[Corn Walker]

Teabaggers (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teabagger), that's funny. I thought that's what they still called themselves; didn't realize they have been moving away from this term because of its other meaning.

I may be mischaracterizing this, but I believe a geneticist said that the genotype differences between humans of different "races" is about as diverse as the genotype differences between black and yellow and chocolate labs. I'm not sure where the concept of race comes from, but it's awfully important to some people, enough so that they'll fill in swimming pools before letting their yellow lab puppies play with the black lab puppies.

Here's an interesting and somewhat apropos article (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html) I read today. Some of the quotes are quite fascinating, such as this gem:


“I just feel he’s getting away from what America is,” said Kathy Mayhugh, 67, a retired medical transcriber in Jacksonville. “He’s a socialist. And to tell you the truth, I think he’s a Muslim and trying to head us in that direction, I don’t care what he says. He’s been in office over a year and can’t find a church to go to. That doesn’t say much for him.”

Yeah, must be his socialist muslim policies she's opposed to...

[Dan Harris]

[
Here's an interesting and somewhat apropos article (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html) I read today. Some of the quotes are quite fascinating, such as this gem:


“I just feel he’s getting away from what America is,” said Kathy Mayhugh, 67, a retired medical transcriber in Jacksonville. “He’s a socialist. And to tell you the truth, I think he’s a Muslim and trying to head us in that direction, I don’t care what he says. He’s been in office over a year and can’t find a church to go to. That doesn’t say much for him.”

Yeah, must be his socialist muslim policies she's opposed to...

Ohhh poor Barrock ... I still don't get it. Ever since I can remember crap talk like this has been said against many other Presidents, Dem's or Rep. since 08 things that cannot be posted here have been said against Sarah, where is the outcry there?
No I don't believe 2 wrongs make it right.

[Billy Stephens]

I may be mischaracterizing this,..
.
Yeah What else is New.
* like a backhanded Insult. :rolleyes:

I don't think the man has ever had a JOB.
* unless hanging around ACORN ( or Rolling Up Your Sleeves at a Speaking Engagement.) is considered a JOB.

I don't think the man has a clue about what will put people back to work.
* think tanks and Professors will create New Technology.
** just don't eat till all this comes on line.

The man does not have a clue about Foreign Relations.
*" Iran will come to realize The Cost Benifits of pursuing Nuclear Weapons "

The man thinks a Terrorist Nation that wants to kill you will sit down and negotiate.

How do you negotiate with a man that wants to Kill You?
* That's Nuts.

The man does not have any idea how The Military Works.
*New No Fire Rules for our Troops.

So I'm a Closet Racist?
* if I don't embrace this man (Just Because Of His Skin Color) and not displayed Abilities or lack of.

You Sir are a Social Bigot.
* that Pot calling the Kettle Black Again?
.

[mathew stouffer]

There is no way, not even close, that this falls under commerce. The highway anology, is again, comparing apples to oranges. That is infrastructure. I have to pay fed highway tax because I order goods from Ca and they arrive via intersate 80. Moreover, health care, under this bill is not interstate, it's intrastate. If I live in utah I can't buy health care from CA, unlike car insurance, since we seem to be stuck on roads. Here again, the gov't is forcing you to buy something just because you exist. Plus everyone is ignoring the big issue, 65percent of our country is over weight. Why should I have to pay into a system when I work hard to keep in great shape and then some fat ass with back problems, knee problems, diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease is killing the system. What if uncle sam want to tax your based on your body fat percentage. Then what, how are you going to defend that. Plus no one has mentioned we still don't know what the gov't is going to require to adhere to their parameters. It's simply a huge mess.

[Corn Walker]

There is no way, not even close, that this falls under commerce.

That's clause 3 of Article I Section 8. But who says it has to fall under commerce? Read the introduction and two clauses before that one.

[mathew stouffer]

FactCheck.org: What is the percentage of total personal bankruptcies caused by health care bills? (http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_is_the_percentage_of_total_personal.html)

There are all kinds of nonsense studies. What they don't tell you is what caused the medical bills and the person has 5 houses to 10 cars, oh yeah and 6 heart attacks. If you place 30 million people into a system who is going pay for that. It's a simple question which no one can answer.

[Ken Rowe]

If you place 30 million people into a system who is going pay for that. It's a simple question which no one can answer.

Who pays for it now? Do you really think those 30 million people never see a doctor for anything? We already pay for them through other taxes and high insurance premiums.


Why should I have to pay into a system when I work hard to keep in great shape and then some fat ass with back problems, knee problems, diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease is killing the system. That question goes both ways. Why should some "fat ass with back problems, knee problems, diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease" pay for you when you fall off a roof or trip on your treadmill?

[Jim Luttrall]

Who pays for it now? Do you really think those 30 million people never see a doctor for anything? We already pay for them through other taxes and high insurance premiums.

That question goes both ways. Why should some "fat ass with back problems, knee problems, diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease" pay for you when you fall off a roof or trip on your treadmill?

Precisely, where is the personal responsibility?

[Michael Thomas]

I know a number of people who are ineligible for individually purchased private health insurance, starting with my wife: 107 lbs,, non-smoker, no drug use, exercises daily, excellent blood pressure and similar risk factors.... and at 57 was diagnosed with cancer.

In fact every one of the half dozen people I know in this situation are leading reasonably "healthy life styles", their major misbehavior was to lose a job (often after 30 or more years of hard work and steady employment) after experiencing a major medical problem.

It's true that there are a lot of obese, under-active tobacco smoking Americans - but there are also a lot of better behaved people in their 50s and 60s who are falling into the gap between available individually purchased private insurance and Medicare.

There is nothing inherently intellectually dishonest about believing that such a high-risk arrangement is a better state of affairs than living in a place which chooses to insure against such risks via mandatory insurance system.

But if the experience of other advanced economies is any guide you can expect to eventually be on the losing end of such arguments - once mandatory insurance arrangements are in place, the vast majority of voters prefer them to the previous alternatives.

[mathew stouffer]

one more study:)
Obesity Healthcare Costs US 147 Billion Dollars A Year, New Study (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/158948.php)

[Ted Menelly]

I know a number of people who are ineligible for individually purchased private health insurance, starting with my wife: 107 lbs,, non-smoker, no drug use, exercises daily, excellent blood pressure and similar risk factors.... and at 57 was diagnosed with cancer.

In fact every one of the half dozen people I know in this situation are leading reasonably "healthy life styles", their major misbehavior was to loose a job (often after 30 or more years of hard work and steady employment) after experiencing a major medical problem.

It's true that there are a lot of obese, under-active tobacco smoking Americans - but there are also a lot of better behaved people in their 50s and 60s who are falling into the gap between available individually purchased private insurance and Medicare.

There is nothing inherently intellectually dishonest about believing that such a high-risk arrangement is a better state of affairs than living in a place which chooses to insure against such risks via mandatory insurance system.

But if the experience of other advanced economies is any guide you can expect to eventually be on the loosing end of such arguments - once mandatory insurance arrangements are in place, the vast majority of voters prefer them to the previous alternatives.

Existing conditions and no limits for medical conditions should have been the first and only health enactments at this time. The rest to very slowly take place over time...if that. Some form of it.

Also...this countries 30,000,000,000 uninsured and then the people that that have existing conditions and then the folks hampered by limits exceeds the population of most those countries or getting close to it. To dump it on society all at once in the tune of cash needed and then be sustained is outrageous. Where do you think all the Doctors and nurses are going to come from once all these folks start hitting the doctors offices and hospitals just like the abuse that goes on with those that have health insurance.

As far as the above...it took place.....it is law....there is no longer anyway to dispute it. It is their absolute law and is rapidly eating those countries alive with the cost and getting worse every year. It is unsustainable.

Look, n o one is saying that there is not items as mentioned above that needed changing whether it be slightly or completely in some way. Everyone wants the truly needy to be covered for major operations and near fatal diseases and such. There is just better and or slower and more economical ways to do it.

Medicaid, medicare, social security, post office etc etc etc etc etc . They are all about to implode do to lack of funds.

Massachusetts, California is about to implode. Corn wants to defend some things about Mass but for gosh sakes man...the only reason mass has survived was by government bail outs in the tune of billions.

The debt we are in is about to cripple us.

The cap and trade is about to cost a fortune.

The new health care bill is about to choke us to death.

I am certainly n ot trying to be a complete ass and I am sorry if I have offended anyone but please look at the right highlighted statements above. Where does one think the money is going to come from for all this.

And no think of the fact that the regular already in place not mentioned programs and entitlements still have to be taken care of yearly.

What seems to be the problem with figuring out that all of this is non sustainable. There just cannot be any possible way to explain why this is not possible at this time. To bring it on in a thriving, bubbling economy without 10 percent unemployment would have been a different story to absorb and buffer some of these costs and at the same time work in real profitable programs from the government to pull in real money and not by taxes. When the housing market picked back up, unemployment brought down to 3 to 4 percent etc etc etc.

Bringing it on in an economy where last month alone there were 500,000 people coming on to the unemployment rolls.

You don't see a problem with that.

Please folks. Consider the simplicity of what I have said. Don't just come back with it is high time we did this no matter what. Major corporations implement plans for growth over years not a year or a week no matter what they will possible do to the company. Then they don't do it unless the funds are available to do it. They don't do it and hope that the funds might be there later or they are going to price themselves out of business.

What happened to the sound business plan instead of throwing it against the wall and hope it sticks.

I am sorry for your families situation Michael and other families that fall into those same dilemmas Those things should have been changed long ago.

[Ted Menelly]

Who pays for it now? Do you really think those 30 million people never see a doctor for anything? We already pay for them through other taxes and high insurance premiums.

That question goes both ways. Why should some "fat ass with back problems, knee problems, diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease" pay for you when you fall off a roof or trip on your treadmill?


Ken

The fact is everyone I know that does not have health insurance only goes to the doctors or hospital when needed. Most of them pay for most if no all their needs. The other large part of those that cannot afford health insurance do not visit the doctor very often and contrary to popular belief most of them do not sit in emergency rooms waiting for free car. Most of them only go when absolutely necessary.

If the hospitals are doing so poorly because of their massive losses then how do you think they are building these massive additions on to their hospitals and hiring vast amounts more nurses, doctors and other hospital staff. Its a frigging scam. The stand alone doctor in his own office is no different than anyone else in this country getting into his own business. It cost a lot of money and high insurance and high risk. Some of their practices take off and they expand and bring more doctors in and some of them starve to death and flounder

The insurance companies are about to be billion and billions of dollars richer. If anyone wants to get into the work force fresh out of college they should get into the insurance industry. It is about to explode with new and continuing business.. Why.......................because the insurance companies that we are going to be forced to by insurance from are already a massively profitable business. That is what there should have been controls put on. To make massive fortunes off of the illnesses of others should be illegal and is a shameful sin as far as I am concerned.

We already pay for all of that now. Why would you want to pay three fold for it.

[Ken Rowe]

Ken

The fact is everyone I know that does not have health insurance only goes to the doctors or hospital when needed. Most of them pay for most if no all their needs. The other large part of those that cannot afford health insurance do not visit the doctor very often and contrary to popular belief most of them do not sit in emergency rooms waiting for free car. Most of them only go when absolutely necessary. While the people you refer to "do not sit in emergency rooms waiting for free care", how many of them actually pay their complete bills? I would bet not many. The rest of us end up paying for the care of those who simply let their bills go to collections.


If the hospitals are doing so poorly because of their massive losses then how do you think they are building these massive additions on to their hospitals and hiring vast amounts more nurses, doctors and other hospital staff. Its a frigging scam. The stand alone doctor in his own office is no different than anyone else in this country getting into his own business. It cost a lot of money and high insurance and high risk. Some of their practices take off and they expand and bring more doctors in and some of them starve to death and flounder
I'm not sure where you live but around here the smaller community hospitals and clinics closed years ago because they could not sustain themselves due to the massive losses they took every year. They couldn't hire descent doctors because they couldn't pay them enough to cover their student loans. If you're talking about the major medical centers in metropolitan areas most are expanding with grants from the Federal government. Money we're paying already in the form of taxes.


The insurance companies are about to be billion and billions of dollars richer. If anyone wants to get into the work force fresh out of college they should get into the insurance industry. It is about to explode with new and continuing business.. Why.......................because the insurance companies that we are going to be forced to by insurance from are already a massively profitable business. That is what there should have been controls put on. To make massive fortunes off of the illnesses of others should be illegal and is a shameful sin as far as I am concerned.

We already pay for all of that now. Why would you want to pay three fold for it.
In the original plan with the public option this would not be happening. But, the Republicans didn't want the public option. The Republicans wanted the private sector (insurance companies) to make money from the new program. And if the Republicans get their way, they will.

[Corn Walker]

If the hospitals are doing so poorly because of their massive losses then how do you think they are building these massive additions on to their hospitals

Most hospitals are incorporated as non-profit entities. For the additions and new buildings etc. they raise restricted gifts that are part of a capital campaign that runs 4-8 years (the first 2-3 years aren't publicized - they are used to cultivate major gifts). The major donors provide the bulk of the funds in exchange for naming rights to the new construction. Being "restricted" gifts they can not legally be used for any purpose other than allowed by the donor.

For operating revenue, most major donors set up foundations or endowment funds where the residual is used to fund current operations. Perhaps you've noticed in the past couple of years that most investments haven't done so well. A number of my non-profit clients saw their operating revenues drop significantly in 2008 and 2009 as the value of their endowments went underwater. In those cases, even though they have $50m in the bank, they legally can't touch that money. They can only spend the interest, dividends, and appreciation gains, all of which have been scarce until recently.

[James Duffin]

I got a letter from my insurance company that said my rates were going up and the coverage is going down due to obamacare. And that's a fact!

[Michael Thomas]

I got a letter from my insurance company that said my rates were going up and the coverage is going down due to obamacare...!

... as opposed to the letters you got for the last five years, that said that your coverage was going up and your rates were going down...:)

[James Duffin]

... as opposed to the letters you got for the last five years, that said that your coverage was going up and your rates were going down...:)

You do not know what you are talking about as regards to my situation. My rates have been steady and the coverage consistent over the past three years. Like I said it is a fact. Do you have a fact to share about my insurance coverage? If not......

[Corn Walker]

I got a letter from my insurance company that said my rates were going up and the coverage is going down due to obamacare. And that's a fact!

I got a letter from my phone company saying they were adding a regulatory compliance fee because of the telecom act of 1996. They didn't mention that this fee was NOT a regulatory fee or government imposed fee or pass-thru fee - it was just something they made up to add an additional fee to our bills. And that's a fact!

Two things:
- The plural of "anecdote" is not "data"
- Companies lie (or liberally interpret the facts to suit their narrative)

It could be the case that your rates are going up because they think the health care legislation will cost more money. Or it could be a convenient excuse. I suppose neither of us will know unless we can audit their books.

[James Duffin]

That is an opinion not a fact about my insurance coverage. And what does your phone bill have to do with anything? I am a bit tired of excuses about how this is going to help me save money. I am not so gullible to believe that you can add 30 million people to health care and cost go down. If this was so why not add all Canadians and Mexicans and then it will be free....after all more is cheaper....right? :rolleyes:

[John Ghent]

I got a letter from my insurance company that said my rates were going up and the coverage is going down due to obamacare. And that's a fact!

Please scan and post the letter.

[Michael Thomas]

Anyone fortunate enough not to have seen their health insurance premiums increase substantially year after year throughout the last decade is having a very unusual experience:

http://paragoninspects.com/images/temp/pre_per_year.jpg

In fact, I don't know personally anyone for whom this has been the case.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that if it's the case that someone has not experienced any decrease in coverage or increase in premiums over the last few years there is something highly unusual about either the insurer or the insurance - if I had such a policy I would be taking a very hard look at what's what's covered, the co-pay percentage, the yearly and lifetime coverage limits, and the complaint history of such an insurer, because either they have perfected a very effective method of not paying claims,or they have invented some kind of anti-gravity field to control medical costs.

[Corn Walker]

That is an opinion not a fact about my insurance coverage. And what does your phone bill have to do with anything? I am a bit tired of excuses about how this is going to help me save money. I am not so gullible to believe that you can add 30 million people to health care and cost go down. If this was so why not add all Canadians and Mexicans and then it will be free....after all more is cheaper....right? :rolleyes:

I made no opinion about your insurance coverage. Please show me where I did. You received a letter - I'll trust that you're accurately reporting its contents. That doesn't mean those contents are a true and accurate account. It could be true but we can't know that it is without the evidence. Just as I am willing to believe you received such a letter based only on your written assertion here, you're willing to believe that cost increases are due to the health care legislation based solely on their assertion. For my belief, it's because I don't see how you have much a motive to lie. On the other hand, I can see how your insurance company does. It doesn't prove they're lying, but because of that motive I'm less willing to take their word for it than I am to believe you actually received the letter.

I don't know if it will save money or not, but I understand the math of the people who say it will, and they have a plausible argument. However there are a lot of forward-looking assumptions and future actions that need to be put in place for those savings to materialize. If those things don't materialize then the savings likely won't either. Based on their track record, I have little faith that all of those pieces will be put into place in the future.

As for your gullibility, I can't say one way or the other. I do know this though. Those 30 million people are already in the health care system. My mother was one of them. She was unable to afford insurance and her health deteriorated to the point where she had serious complications and multiple cardiac surgeries on the public dime. The last six months of her life saw several major medical interventions, all paid for by the safety net care pool. We paid for her urgent care indirectly through higher taxes and higher medical costs (reflected as higher premiums and co-pays).

The question is, would her care have been less urgent and less costly had she had access to routine, preventative medical care? Could she have avoided the emergency room admissions for pneumonia if she were able to see a primary care physician for her lung infections? Would she have avoided major cardiac surgeries had she been able to afford her medications? I don't know, but actuaries say that there are a significant number of individuals that place a disproportionate burden on the health care system. At the same time, there are a number of healthy individuals that opt not to purchase health insurance, also placing a burden on it (non-participation is not a neutral action).

Insurance works best when there is a wide pool to spread the risk. By mixing in healthy individuals with the person unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with cancer, the latter doesn't have to bear the cost of treatment singly. This is the rationale behind the individual mandate. If health insurance companies are required to accept without respect to pre-existing conditions, they need some assurance that people won't decline purchasing health insurance until they get sick.

[James Duffin]

You are kidding.....right? LMFAO.....But I will send you the bill to pay if you like.

If you don't believe me then prove me wrong by quoting what is in the obamacare bill that proves me wrong. Since you are so gung-ho I am sure you have read it cover to cover.

[Billy Stephens]

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I will send you the bill to pay if you like.
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I've Never Meet a Liberal with a Problem ( or a perceived one ) that My Money Would Not Solve. :mad:
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[Ted Menelly]

I made no opinion about your insurance coverage. Please show me where I did. You received a letter - I'll trust that you're accurately reporting its contents. That doesn't mean those contents are a true and accurate account. It could be true but we can't know that it is without the evidence. Just as I am willing to believe you received such a letter based only on your written assertion here, you're willing to believe that cost increases are due to the health care legislation based solely on their assertion. For my belief, it's because I don't see how you have much a motive to lie. On the other hand, I can see how your insurance company does. It doesn't prove they're lying, but because of that motive I'm less willing to take their word for it than I am to believe you actually received the letter.

I don't know if it will save money or not, but I understand the math of the people who say it will, and they have a plausible argument. However there are a lot of forward-looking assumptions and future actions that need to be put in place for those savings to materialize. If those things don't materialize then the savings likely won't either. Based on their track record, I have little faith that all of those pieces will be put into place in the future.

As for your gullibility, I can't say one way or the other. I do know this though. Those 30 million people are already in the health care system. My mother was one of them. She was unable to afford insurance and her health deteriorated to the point where she had serious complications and multiple cardiac surgeries on the public dime. The last six months of her life saw several major medical interventions, all paid for by the safety net care pool. We paid for her urgent care indirectly through higher taxes and higher medical costs (reflected as higher premiums and co-pays).

The question is, would her care have been less urgent and less costly had she had access to routine, preventative medical care? Could she have avoided the emergency room admissions for pneumonia if she were able to see a primary care physician for her lung infections? Would she have avoided major cardiac surgeries had she been able to afford her medications? I don't know, but actuaries say that there are a significant number of individuals that place a disproportionate burden on the health care system. At the same time, there are a number of healthy individuals that opt not to purchase health insurance, also placing a burden on it (non-participation is not a neutral action).

Insurance works best when there is a wide pool to spread the risk. By mixing in healthy individuals with the person unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with cancer, the latter doesn't have to bear the cost of treatment singly. This is the rationale behind the individual mandate. If health insurance companies are required to accept without respect to pre-existing conditions, they need some assurance that people won't decline purchasing health insurance until they get sick.


Number 1

Why do you say that. That is another fallacy. The more people with health insurance , for one, the more that will be using it because "Why not, I have it I might as well use it to death". oops, little boo boo, gotta go to the doctors and have him kiss it. That alone will drive cost up because it depletes the funds that would have been there for the other things in the health care bill. Everybody uses health insurance when they have it. If they have a fever, a bad splinter, smash there leg and once limped around for a while now gets xrayed etc etc etc etc.

Number 2.

Health insured folks over time since its inception as far as folks getting it and using it has risen steadly over time and keeps getting more expensive. Yes there have been times like now the those rolls fell off due to recession and job loss, what ever.

Number 3

The number of folks going to the ER with no coverage has about remained the same with gains and looses over time but as time went on with more employers giving at least partial coverage the ones going without has not really changed.

Number 4

The insurance companies are going to have to accept no limits and that means for anyone no ,matter what the sickness, disease, what ever. The little things that they did not cover before cannot be denied because it was pre existing and the little things they only paid part of will continue to be paid for until time ends that means all illnesses, forever. Don't you see it rising by billions a year
Lots more numbers but I will stop there

Blue highlight above.

Which is it that you think you are going to save money on. Paying for millions of people to have health insurance that truly cannot afford and there are millions, don't know the real number and no one does but I can guaranty you millions of people. Then there are those that will not be able to afford it all and will get credits, tax credits, which they never paid anything into federal tax anyway or if they did they got a refund before.

Lets see. Lets take 3 million mothers or mother and fathers with two kids or more , lets say family plan and we will only figure it by 500.00 for health insurance coverage for a family plan to keep it simple............ 500.00 x 3.000,000.00 = 1,500,000,000.00 and lets remove all caps and pre existing conditions from them. Now that is not the only payout. The doctors and nurses get paid as well as the building, lights supplies etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc , the insurance company takes their cut, the families are poorer and more than likely more things going wrong and possibly poorer upkeep due to being poor (not knocking poor folks). 180 agencies, not just the 16,000 IRS folks and all there costs. Illegals still going to hospitals and cannot be refused care.

Lets go back

1,500,000,000 for the family plans is monthly whether they are sick or not. You are not paying anywhere near that in the absolute slightest now but yo will be. 1,500,000,000 x 12 months 18,000,000,000 plus plus plus plus plus plus plus.

Look I was going to go on for days but I am tired so you can be happy now that I stopped cause it would have went on for pages. The costs are absolutely staggering and will still have to pay for all other bills for gov services and protection and and and and and and and we have to pay for our debt we are in with the hundreds of billions if not trillions in interest over the years at the same time.


If you you don't get it yet than you absolutely never will. Stop reading the bill. There is not enough money in that bill for anything. You will be paid out to death

AND LETS NOT FORGET ALL THE GETTING OLDER, OLD AND REALLY OLD FOLKS THAT ARE HERE, GONNA BE HERE AND WILL FOR DECADES THAT WE WILL STILL HAVE TO PAY FOR AND THEY WON'T BE PAYING ANYTHING TO ANYWHERE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A FEW IN RELATIVE TERMS

Not yelling, just highlighting with caps. Stop reading the bill and the plans. There is nothing in there than plans for this massive amount of funding that is about to take place for ever.............................

Do you understand that

I talk in simple terms on here and am not going to exhaust myself talking in non layman's terms on a message board. I don't even care about spelling on here.

Before you or anyone responds please just take time and mull it over and stop looking in the bill. It tells you nothing on how this will really be handled. Not just health care but everything. You want to live in a foreign country that already has it go but don't bring the rest of us down with you. I know you just want to just talk health care and the new bill. The rest of life is out there to and will be right along with health care. Add them up. Trillions of dollars. Trillions of dollars. More for that than most countries entire budgets in a decade, debt, health care wars (they will be around a long long long long long time and when they go away there will be more), old folks (that figure alone from the time one cannot work anymore till they drop and then the folks getting to that age and then the folks like me that are following them to there grave) staggering figures, postal and gov workers retiring and beiong paid till death etc etc etc etc. This list alone is frightening.


Think about it folks then think of why everyone in the US should appose this until some real concrete plan of action with no crippling affect on 300,000,000 people.. ..Yes.... 300,000,000 people with no caps and no pre existing conditions and paying for those that cannot afford it every single month for eternity until one buy one everyone drops of old age. And the rest of the funding we must do for everything else on a yearly basis with all the interest.

Freaking staggering.

I keep saying I am sorry, so once again, I am sorry for the rant and any toe stepping I may have done.

[Michael Thomas]

There seem to be some misconceptions floating around in this discussion about what this bill does and does not mandate, for example there is some confusion over the difference between the requirement to enroll plan members irrespective of pre-existing conditions and requirements for what is covered under a plan once someone is enrolled - the fact that you can't discriminate in the first case does not mean that you required to provide unlimited care in the second.

For example the "exchanges" which will be pooling individual and small business purchasers to improve their bargaining power will be offering four different levels of insurance, which will essentially range from plans roughly equivalent to "high deductible catastrophic coverage" to plans which offer comprehensive access and lower co-pays similar to that provided by provided by "Premium PPOs".

(This is the way that supplemental Medicare plans are marketed today - insurers can offer plans at several different levels of coverage but the benefits at a given level of coverage have to meet specified standards at each plan level, which makes it far easier for consumers to compare choices - you are comparing apples with apples without reading through pages and pages of fine print and mysteriously arcane rules).

So while the exchanges cannot discriminate in enrollment on the basis of pre-existing conditions, all subscribers to a given plan will receive the same level of benefits - and only the level of benefits - mandated under the plan level they choose, and for example people who want low- deductible plans covering a wide range of services are going to have to pay up front for the privilege, while people who are willing to shoulder the risk of higher deductibles will pay substantially lower premiums in return for accepting a higher risk of unpredictable medical expenses.

[Ted Menelly]

There seem to be some misconceptions floating around in this discussion about what this bill does and does not mandate, for example there is some confusion over the difference between the requirement to enroll plan members irrespective of pre-existing conditions and requirements for what is covered under a plan once someone is enrolled - the fact that you can't discriminate in the first case does not mean that you required to provide unlimited care in the second.

For example the "exchanges" which will be pooling individual and small business purchasers to improve their bargaining power will be offering four different levels of insurance, which will essentially range from plans roughly equivalent to "high deductible catastrophic coverage" to plans which offer comprehensive access and lower co-pays similar to that provided by provided by "Premium PPOs".

(This is the way that supplemental Medicare plans are marketed today - insurers can offer plans at several different levels of coverage, the benefits at a given level of coverage have to meet specified standards at each plan level, which makes it far easier for consumers to compare choices - you are comparing apples with apples without reading through pages and pages of fine print and mysteriously arcane rules).

So while the exchanges cannot discriminate in enrollment on the basis of pre-existing conditions, all subscribers to a given plan will receive the same level of benefits - and only the level of benefits - mandated under the plan level they choose, and for example people who want low- deductible plans covering a wide range of services are going to have to pay up front for the privilege, while people who are willing to shoulder the risk of higher deductibles will pay substantially lower premiums in return for accepting a higher risk of unpredictable medical expenses.


And if someone can only afford the minimum with a high deductible.........you pay for the rest and they will still go bankrupt and and and and ..They will be in the emergency room when their plan does not cover something. What you are telling me is that they will be forced to buy insurance , for one, they cannot afford, they will be forced because they cannot afford it to go to an emergency room and be taken care of anyway and or be billed for it and put them into finacial strate anyway, so you are saying the new bill is worthless because all will not be covered.

Lets see

Be forced to buy something and give up something in life ...like food.

What they cannot afford in payment for insurance ...you will be paying.

Have a plane that does not cover them for everything forcing them into the poor farm.

I guess I will stop there

What you are saying is everyone in the country is about to pay a fortune for something that is pretty much useless and does not do what it was intended to do which is get everyone covered, be affordable, won't be, and the only ones that will be covered for anything that could possibly go wrong with them is the poor families which this is the only thing Obama plan was meant for anyway and everyone else is in the same **** with a massive bill to pay and still be going broke because they could only afford to pay for a particular level of coverage.

Michael.

What do you think I have been bitching about. It is going to cost an absolute fortune. Raise fees and taxes on everything only to hurt the middle or lower middle income and only help the people living under the poverty level. The upper income folks will not be harmed other than some of their hard earned money but the middle income will be in the same boat they are in now. The lower middle income are going to get screwed altogether and the folks that cannot afford health care are the only ones to benefit at all. And be smiling all the way to the hospital knowing their life won't be affected at all.

It is an absolute sham from a flim flam man that snowed the roughly 50% (maybe a lot less) into this is a wonderful plan for everyone.

Keep talking about it and you keep exposing more. I said it would take pages and pages to list all the cost and bad that will come of this. You are just keeping me from typing. Everyone that thinks this is a wonderful plan keeps on posting why it ios a shitty plan and does nothing for the multitude but hurt them...just the poor make out. Everyone else lives a harder life with a tremendous less amount of money for them to put away for that rainy day, vacations, that extra special gift they planned on buying their deserving wife, that car repair, that new car payment, that house they were saving for, less food on their table, that new pair of sneakers for the boy that wears them out all to soon, retirement etc etc etc etc. You name it. That is a freaking wonderful plan.

Thanks

[Billy Stephens]

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There seem to be some misconceptions floating around in this discussion about what this bill does and does not mandate,
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Yes There IS ! :rolleyes:


for example there is some confusion
all subscribers to a given plan will receive the same level of benefits -
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The HHS Secretary Has almost 2 years before The Standards are established.

#16 of the attachment already caps out of pocket expenses @ $2,000 an Individual and $4,000 for a Family. ( Low, Medium or High End as you call the Levels)

Governmental One Size Fits ( nobody) All . :rolleyes:


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[Michael Greenwalt]

Shouldn't this thread be somewhere else? In the rantings of the Tea Party forum or something?

[David Bell]

The insurance companies are doing now what the credit card companies did just before the new regs. kicked in, Fleecing America! As a small business owner I can assure you that I pay enough for health ins. to keep a small village in Africa well. About 32% of my operating expenses are insurance related.

[Michael Thomas]

IMO, one of the biggest mistakes many critics of this program make is the assumption that somehow the middle and working classes are the big losers under such a program - when in fact they are the biggest winners.

First, working and middle-class families have the most to lose.

The truly well off ( those with a net worth of $5 million or more outside of their personal residence) can self-insure (including the cost of long-term care should they become disabled) while and low net worth individual have little to lose economically should illness force them into bankruptcy. (Not that bankruptcy is a bed of roses for anyone; the emotional costs can be very high, and under the new bankruptcy laws you may find that your wages garnished for the next five years).

But families with substantial savings and/or significant equity their personal residence but without sufficient wealth to self-insure have everything to lose - there is a substantial likelihood that a serious illness during the period of involuntary uninsurance will cause them to lose the precarious financial stability they've acquired during an entire working lifetime.

Second, working and middle classes individuals and families have the most to lose if they attempt to improve their situation throughout entrepreneurial effort or change to a better job which creates an insurance gap - the affluent can afford to take such chances without risk of complete financial disaster, and low net worth individuals have little or nothing nothing to lose from gambling on improving their situation - so once again it's the working or middle class family that's often going to be putting their life savings and future financial security at risk of medical bankruptcy if they try to improve their situation.

This strikes me as completely perverse and counterproductive for both working and middle-class families and society at large - these are people you want to assist in their attempts to improve their situation (and strength of the national economy), instead, the current system often discourages entrepreneurial effort or taking a better job.

So if you are working, or middle class individual - and especially if you are self-employed or experiencing "job lock" resulting from insurance concerns - the new insurance law is likely one of of the best things that ever happened it you.

And once working and middle-class families realize that they no longer have to live in fear of medical bankruptcy, most will consider calls for return to a system in which only they - but not the comfortably affluent or the very poor - are forced to run such risks to be highly unreasonable.

Of course there will always be people who prefer to assume such risks - even for their children - and feel it is "unfair" that they are not allowed to do so.

But the evidence from every economy where such risks are limited is that a large majority of citizens prefer to pay the costs of being protected from such risks, and strongly believe that since they will have to pick up the tab for providing medical care to the "voluntarily uninsured" it's both "fair" and reasonable to require everyone to carry insurance, and thus assume at least some of the cost of their medical care and of the lifestyle choices which influence that cost.

----------------------------

I don't know exactly how so many conservatives came to be so opposed to the current plan (which bears a strong resemblance to previous Republican proposals, back when the Republicans were interested in presenting serious alternatives to Democratic proposals instead of soap-boxing about "socialism") nd a lot of such opposition simply doesn't make sense, as for example when the same people who believe that everyone ought pay at least some federal income tax so they "have at least some skin in the game" oppose requiring voluntarily uninsured people to purchase insurance for the same reason.

But I suspect that it often has less to do a specific policy concerns than with the conviction that government is inherently is designed to screw the working and middle classes, and that any proposal that comes out of Washington inherently has to be designed to serve the interests of the very rich and the verhimy poor at the expense of everyone else.

However while it's reasonable to be pretty cynical about the results of the political process, I don't think it's reasonable to assume out of hand that every result of that process worsens the situation of working and middle-class families.

[mathew stouffer]

Simply based on their own track record, there is no way the feds can pull this off. I have listed a couple of beauties myself and the website is pretty interesting.

amtrak
No student left behind
Social security
Medicare
medicade
War on drugs
Boarder security
F35
prohobition
our fed tax code
Broken Government | Failures by Full List (http://www.publicintegrity.org/investigations/broken_government/articles/full_list/)

[mathew stouffer]

This is good one also

The federal government’s 100% failure rate « Crush Liberalism (http://crushliberalism.com/2009/09/08/the-federal-governments-100-failure-rate/)

[Corn Walker]

You're wasting your time, Michael. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. The nearly complete lack of coherence in tea party beliefs and attitudes coupled with the anger and vitriol they use to express them should have been a sign that these people aren't interested in having a reasoned debate.

Go to a tea party rally - it's incredibly enlightening just talking to them. Not all of them are the angry Obama=Hitler misspelled sign-carrying types. Most are quite civil in their protestation. Talking to them though I'm struck that this supposedly better educated (according to the latest NYT/CBS poll) group has no ability to articulate what it is they're opposed to. Instead the people I've spoken with have talked vaguely about "taking our country back" and "freedoms" and "getting back the constitution."

This is visceral for them, and they don't know why. But I can tell you that Fox News and the GOP are playing them for all it's worth. From the lies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/video_2324.html?1271360625) they spread about jail time to the lies they spread about death panels, they're more than happy to provide the fuel for those seeking out justification for their feelings. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

[Billy Stephens]

Shouldn't this thread be somewhere else? In the rantings of the Tea Party forum or something?
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Or...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_(radio_network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_%28radio_network))

Oops, They Went Bust Didn't They? :D
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First, working and middle-class families have the most to lose.
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Michael,

I understand your heart is in the right place.

But you are basing your beliefs on Political Speeches.
* not The Passed Legislation.

Until The Definitions and Standards are Written Nobody Knows What they Will be.
* as it stands now there are holes big enough in The Law to float a Battle Ship Through.
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[Dan Harris]

This is visceral for them, and they don't know why. But I can tell you that Fox News and the GOP are playing them for all it's worth. From the lies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/video_2324.html?1271360625) they spread about jail time to the lies they spread about death panels, they're more than happy to provide the fuel for those seeking out justification for their feelings. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

Well dang it, if I only saved, or knew how to record interviews. Last night I swear the question about going to jail, was asked of Nancy Pelocie [ Sp? ]
I am almost positive she stated yes that could happen if someone don't pay. :)

[Billy Stephens]

. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
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From the lies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/video_2324.html?1271360625) they spread about jail .





I am almost positive she stated yes that could happen if someone don't pay. :)
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HotAirPundit: Nancy Pelosi Dodges Question About Jail Time For Not Buying Health Insurance (http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/11/nancy-pelosi-dodges-question-about-jail.html)
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[Dan Harris]

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HotAirPundit: Nancy Pelosi Dodges Question About Jail Time For Not Buying Health Insurance (http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/11/nancy-pelosi-dodges-question-about-jail.html)
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Thanks Billy. That one is close to the one I saw last night.

On to the Death panels, Now do we have the one where Barrock the great savour of all :) stated someting about giving an old sick person a pill. :D

[Billy Stephens]

Now do we have the one where Barrock the great savour of all :) stated someting about giving an old sick person a pill. :D
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YouTube - Obama to Jane Sturm: Hey, take a pill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo)
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[Steve Frederickson]

Don't get me wrong, I will probably benefit in the short run form the health care law. I have a 24 year olf son who works hard. He has three part-time jobs. He still lives at home, he's trying to find something full-time, but with all of the hours that he works, none of the jobs provide health care and his total pay won't allow him to afford to purchase it.

In the long term though, he and the rest of the country will be burdened by a tax debt that will be staggering. Yes, Bush left a trillion dollar deficit. But Obama is on his way to a multi-trillion dollar deficit. Some day, it will have to be paid. Maybe it's just me, but borrowing from China doesn't seem like a great idea.

I guess I'd have a lot more faith in the health care law if Congress hadn't exempted itself from it http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Ted Menelly]

You're wasting your time, Michael. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. The nearly complete lack of coherence in tea party beliefs and attitudes coupled with the anger and vitriol they use to express them should have been a sign that these people aren't interested in having a reasoned debate.

Go to a tea party rally - it's incredibly enlightening just talking to them. Not all of them are the angry Obama=Hitler misspelled sign-carrying types. Most are quite civil in their protestation. Talking to them though I'm struck that this supposedly better educated (according to the latest NYT/CBS poll) group has no ability to articulate what it is they're opposed to. Instead the people I've spoken with have talked vaguely about "taking our country back" and "freedoms" and "getting back the constitution."

This is visceral for them, and they don't know why. But I can tell you that Fox News and the GOP are playing them for all it's worth. From the lies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/video_2324.html?1271360625) they spread about jail time to the lies they spread about death panels, they're more than happy to provide the fuel for those seeking out justification for their feelings. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.


Whats with the tea party garbage

Whats with thinking everyone has hatred in them

Why are you calling people liars

Everything everyone is saying has something somewhere to back it up.

Just becasue your opinion is one way based on which part of this you wish to absorb the other folks are showing you things that you choose not to absorb

Do you think that any of the folks against this plan want to see people suffering....I think not

Do you think that everyone against this plan is a racist and not just a racist but they hate the poor folks. I think not

Where do you get all this garabge from

Why are you against an enormous group (which you act like is a little band of liars and hooligans) that just happen to call themselves the tea party. I for one am not a "member" of the tea party but I respect there right to have a difference of opinion unlike yourself.

As far as the go to jail.........Don't pay for health insurance and then refuse to pay the fines and or penalties to the IRS (which will have soul charge of the situation whether you believe it to be true or not) and you will go to jail and be hounded to death and audited and anything else they wish to do to you like confiscate any goodies you may have to pay for the fines, penalties and health insurance. You don' think that will happen????? Not to be rude and blunt but you better wake up, have a strong cup of coffee, smell the roses and get back to reality and start thinking straight. The IRS has the ability and authority to my your life a miserable freaking hell and do not ever doubt it.

Do you thionk the millions of people that do agree with, what do you call them, tea baggers are a bunch of freaking useless idiot Americans that do nothing but sit around all day and night and watch Fox news. My God man. It is one news channel. I watch it and CNN and others all the time. Most of them talk about the same things. Does that make them all bad? Now if you are referring to Shawn Hannity then, well, he is like a Catholic, Islamic, Baptist, Republican or Democrat extremist. He is overboard on everything he talks about. ITS A NEWS PROGRAM. He is an actor (even though he believes his extremism) he gets ratings for being outrageous.

Do you really think that your view is the only view and everything that comes out of your brain cells is the only comprehensible way things could possibly be.

I have repeatedly stated countless items that are bad about this program with only the poor will benefit from. Everything I stated has been true. It is repeated by The dems on short blurbs on TV and in other forms of news and Repubs and liberals as well.

Am I possibly somewhat wrong or a little off on anything I stated. I am absolutely sure I am. The basics of it is that this program won't hurt the middle to upper middle class with the exception of much, much higher taxes and fees on everything but they will still be able to afford decent health coverage. The lower middle class will be destroyed and moved into the or close to poverty level and will only be able to afford the cheapest most useless insurance that will put them in a poor farm as it does now but the poor will be completely covered. Why is it that every American must buy health insurance and pay massive fees and taxes and in essence the only folks this helps is the poor. This was suppose to make i affordable for everyone, not free for many and the rest get screwed. The poor can already go to the emergency room and be paid for and there is no such thing as pre existing conditions or limits. They get worked on until they are better...you pay for it now. Why do you want to pay a massive amount more for it all and still have worse coverage then them. why do you want individual to be forced to by cheap health in surance and possible a cheap family plan that covers them for crap and then have to pay the rest themselves and possibly go bankrupt and the poor folks have no toll against them at all. Where is your head at.

Taxes, fees, penalties, debt interest, ongoing programs wars, debt that we have to pay back (already mentioned the interest), the mass amount of government employess for all 180 plus departments to be created to hanndle all this, 16000 or so IRS agent (for a little fun...Gestapo, and not much different) and all their expense and retirement and benefits and autos, and insurance, and sick days, and holidays and and and and everything imaginable that brings to bare on the economy (our wallets)

The burden on our wallets for those things already paid for such as health care for those that cannot pay there hospital and doctor bills and those that file bankruptcy and all of the associated items will be looked back on as "why the hell did we not settle for that and just fix things like no caps and no denial for pre existing conditions.

A lot of people have brought forth a plethora of information. Something to combat everything you keep coming up with and like the Dems who brought this on us................"Oh well, something had to be done"


Which words do you not understand about socialism, yes, people watching out for one another and lending a hand as is done now ....to....A full blown Social Republic such as the about to flounder, for some reason or other , praised, European countries or the collapsed USSR, Cuba. All floundered and the rest about to just as California and Mass are about to.

Your last post again

"You're wasting your time, Michael. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. The nearly complete lack of coherence in tea party beliefs and attitudes coupled with the anger and vitriol they use to express them should have been a sign that these people aren't interested in having a reasoned debate.

Go to a tea party rally - it's incredibly enlightening just talking to them. Not all of them are the angry Obama=Hitler misspelled sign-carrying types. Most are quite civil in their protestation. Talking to them though I'm struck that this supposedly better educated (according to the latest NYT/CBS poll) group has no ability to articulate what it is they're opposed to. Instead the people I've spoken with have talked vaguely about "taking our country back" and "freedoms" and "getting back the constitution."

This is visceral for them, and they don't know why. But I can tell you that Fox News and the GOP are playing them for all it's worth. From the lies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/video_2324.html?1271360625) they spread about jail time to the lies they spread about death panels, they're more than happy to provide the fuel for those seeking out justification for their feelings. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic."

OK...I will try to be a little nice (only because there are some fools hanging with the te party gatherers)

What a pompous sounding, ignorant sounding, condescending sounding, arrogant sounding, blithering, belittling fool. You have a touch of edumication and suddenly you are trying to talk like you are the only one that has gone to school in life and are doing it in you post to try to belittle everyone because for some strange reason they are all complete and utter idiots.

Who in the world do you think you are.

Did you even read what you said. You are talking about a tremendous amount of your fellow men.

So which are you Corn

A man that for some reason has felt held down all his life ? A man that believes even though he works for a living that everyone owes him something ? A man so blinded by the left that he cannot put 2+2 together ? A man that hates Republican or conservative thinking (I am neither but tend to agree that this is just a seriously bad bill) Someone that feels like he has been kicked all his life and he is now getting his just deserves ?

Your last post brought you out no matter what you have said in previous posts. You are a very seriously angry man.There is a difference about being angry over the bill and being an angry man in life. Not about the bill or no bill but about life in general. The nasty ole tea baggers piss you off more than you can possibly imagine. Republican thought should be carved out with a knife. You talk of everyone's angers and hatred and disgust..

My friend corn. You need to go see someone for these pent up, life long feelings. You are about the most prejudice man I have come across in a long time. Prejudice about everything and anything that you feel treads on you. You feel as though you have been treaded upon all your life and are not going to take it anymore. This has left the discussion for you about good bill, bad bill,. for you this has become personal. You are putting yourself above all those nasty tea baggers like you are better than those misspelled sign carriers and then you continue putting yourself above all the rest of the tea baggers because they cannot articulate or comprehend and and and the are blind led sheep intoxicated by Fox news (serious funny but not)

The reality is you are far worse than anyone of them....Don't think so? Read your own last post. Absolutely pitiful.

Holy, holy, holy. I have to stop doing this.. What was it you said

"You're wasting your time, Michael. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. The nearly complete lack of coherence in tea party beliefs and attitudes coupled with the anger and vitriol they use to express them should have been a sign that these people aren't interested in having a reasoned debate."

What a freaking joke. Do you hear yourself Corn. Turn it all around, change a couple words and then that would be exactly you. But that's OK that is what the Democrats do. They can tell you the sky is blue even though there is overcast and then when confronted with it Um, ah, oh, well, uh huh stutter, stutter, stutter and then change the subject and turn it back around.

I should not say All dems. Just the serious left stokers (I think they are smokin something very serious) like Pelosi

[Ted Menelly]

.
.
YouTube - Obama to Jane Sturm: Hey, take a pill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo)
.
.


He did not just say that to that poor old lady about her mother.

He might as well have just said

Let the old bag die. She is a burden on society. Maybe that pace make would have pushed her life on for sometime to come. This program is not for the well off. The somewhat well off. The old folks, The middle income. It is all for (largely) inner city and outback country poor. It is not to make things better for everyone. The entire Bill was put forth as a lie.

Absolutely freaking pitiful.

[Michael Thomas]

I'm one of the few people I know who starts the day by reading Daily Kos AND FreeRepublic, and IMO I have a pretty good handle on the lies and evasions being pumped out by both sides on this issue .

And one general guideline I follow for myself when reading the propaganda from either side that pretty much universally applies is that anytime either side claims the health care bill does something that's obviously outrageous and politically suicidal, it doesn't do any such thing.

For example, does it appear remotely likely to anybody reading this discussion that someone running for national public office is going to advocate putting a few million people in jail for refusing to buy health insurance?

It appears unlikely because in fact the the health care bill does no such thing, and in fact is quite specific about the fact that no such thing as allowed to happen; the law specifically prohibits the IRS from using the liens and levies to money owed by taxpayers who refuse to purchase health insurance and/or refuse to pay the fine for failing to do so, and specifically prohibits any criminal penalties for individuals who refuse to obtain coverage, See pp 131 here:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3590enr.txt.pdf

(There has been some recent discussion of whether or not the IRS will be able to withhold refunds for this purpose, I don't know if that question is been settled yet).

But nobody is going to jail for refusing to buy health insurance, and those who claim otherwise are either ill-informed - or as in the case cases of the many politicians and media commentators who have had this specific prohibition pointed out numerous times, must know better, and keep making such claims - are flat-out liars.

[Michael Thomas]

Don't get me wrong, I will probably benefit in the short run form the health care law. I have a 24 year olf son who works hard. He has three part-time jobs. He still lives at home, he's trying to find something full-time, but with all of the hours that he works, none of the jobs provide health care and his total pay won't allow him to afford to purchase it.

In the long term though, he and the rest of the country will be burdened by a tax debt that will be staggering....


I'm not quite following that: you (or your son, if he is paying part or all of the employees contribution) are paying premiums to insure him under your private insurance plan.

Why is this "increasing tax debt" anymore then it will be "increasing tax debt" when he obtains full time employment and pays premiums into a different private insurance plan?

Or, are you okay with this provision of the plan, but expect other provisions of the plan will increase "tax debt"?

[Steve Frederickson]

He can't be insured under my family plan. He's too old and not in school, so he's not a dependent. He doesn't make enough to purchase a private plan, so right now he's uninsured and taking his chances. If he were to get injured or ill, he would get care (no one in this country is left lying in the street in front of a hospital). I should be all for public health care, and I am for some changes to the old system. I'm just concerned that the way that they went about it is all wrong. I pretty certain that no one actually read the entire bill before it was passed into law, and I'm not sure that the debt that we're incurring to acheive it is worth it.
Any plan that requires 16,000 more IRS agents to enforce is just plain wrong.
And again, if it's so great, why did congress exempt themselves from it?

[Michael Thomas]

As of September, if he's under 26 and has no option to enroll in group health insurance coverage through an employer your insurance will be required to offer him coverage under your plan - no limits on the premium they can charge, though (though it will likely be similar to other group plan members his age), and if coverage is "available" through one of his employers (but unaffordable) he still out of luck until 2014, when he will be able to purchase an individual policy via an exchange, which will likely be similar to his cost to purchase insurance through an employer, i.e. a lot less expensive than purchasing an individual policy.

[Billy Stephens]

I have a pretty good handle on the lies and evasions being pumped out by both sides on this issue .

It appears unlikely because in fact the the health care bill does no such thing, and in fact is quite specific about the fact that no such thing as allowed to happen; the law specifically prohibits the IRS from using the liens and levies to money owed by taxpayers who refuse to purchase health insurance and/or refuse to pay the fine for failing to do so, and specifically prohibits any criminal penalties for individuals who refuse to obtain coverage, See pp 131 here:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3590enr.txt.pdf

(There has been some recent discussion of whether or not the IRS will be able to withhold refunds for this purpose, I don't know if that question is been settled yet).

But nobody is going to jail for refusing to buy health insurance,.
.
Michael,
What does "(2) Special Rules- Not withstanding any other provision of law
paragraph above the section you site.
(A) waiver of criminal penalties

Mean ?
.

[Ted Menelly]

Give it a rest

What would the gov be doing in placing the IRS in charge of auditing doctors and hospitals to find the cost of services and the amount an who does not have health insurance.

Further more. Lets see. The congress and senate and the speaker and the President cannot answer any of these question without stammering and stuttering and stumbling all over themselves but Michael picks up the info on line and suddenly he has all the answers to everything by reading a few items The next thing Mike I am sure you will say you read almost all 1000 pages and know everything that is in it.

As far as the only one you know that wakes up every morning.............And. I am not sure what you are getting at. You do this and that so you are now the absolute expert because you do certain things and everyone else is just an idiot...I get it.

So Mike. What you are saying is that we have to buy health insurance but if we don't there is nothing anyone can do about not buying it and nothing is going to happen to anyone that refuses to buy it or pay the fines and penalties for not doing so.

That's your logic and you are sticking to it?

Lets see. "But officer, I just don't want to get into your police car" "Furthermore you cannot make me or do anything about it"

I see. I understand the logic.

Keep writing and I keep seeing more and more flaws in what you say and the program.

Nice piece of legislature. And so well understood. As well as your flawd understanding.

You have nothing but dispute about everything anyone has put forth. Do you also see the flaw in that. Even when things are laid out for you. I know you are an intelligent man Mike and have always admired that but sometimes you just have to let the idiots tell you a thing or to. Sensory overload in believing you know it all. If you think that was bull...Not. Many very intelligent folks cannot see past a written word or there own nose because they do not want to spite it.

[Michael Thomas]

.
Michael,
What does "(2) Special Rules- Not withstanding any other provision of law
paragraph above the section you site.
(A) waiver of criminal penalties

Mean ?
.

Just what it says: that irrespective of any other law (or regulation given the effect of law), no individual is subject to criminal prosecution for failure to pay the penalty for failure to obtain insurance (which is the only sanction attached to failure to obtain insurance).

The next section states that the IRS cannot lien or levy upon any property of a taxpayer who fails to pay such a penalty, i. e. that the IRS is prohibited from seeking effective civil recourse as well.

You could argue that given the lack of meaningful sanctions the whole plan may fail because people won't obtain insurance, what you can't reasonably argue in the face of that language is that people will be going to jail, or fined and lined or levied, for failure to pay the penalty for not doing so.

[Bruce Breedlove]

. . . what you can't reasonably argue in the face of that language is that people will be going to jail, or fined and lined or levied, for failure to pay the penalty for not doing so.

I will sleep better knowing I won't be lined.

(Would the lines have been temporary or permanent (e.g., tattooed lines)? )

[Michael Thomas]

IMO, the big problem with this bill is that it morphed from "Healthcare Reform" into "Insurance Industry Regulation", along the way dropping any pretense of effective cost control .

I'm not surprised about this because any kind of effective cost control involves rationing, and that's something that the party out of power can always use to club the party in power, so no politician the right mind is going to use the word or even realistically discuss the concept.

----------------

The reform of the insurance industry and the expansion of availability is going to be hugely popular politically, for example you can already see the Republican candidate for Senate in my state (Illinois, Kirk) backpedaling away from his original promises to fight for "repeal" as he starts looking at the opinion polls, which show that while voters are deeply suspicious of the concept of "healthcare reform" some of the actual provisions of the bill poll at 65% or better popularity, even in deeply "red" states.

In my opinion if you want to know where this actually going one of the best people to read is Joe Flower, who has an excellent record of predicting the general political shape of healthcare politics,and whose primary audience is the Healthcare Industry . He's paid for "telling it like it is" to healthcare executives who are trying to plan for profitable operation under likely future regulation, and is paid not to preach to the choir on either left or right, but to help pragmatic healthcare executives and corporate boards anticipate what they like to be faced with.... and so is paid specifically notto cater to the political prejudices or politically expedient talking points of the moment on either side.

Health Care Reform: Round 2 - Healthcare Futurist: Joe Flower (http://www.imaginewhatif.com/2010/03/health-care-reform-round-2.html#more)

-----------------

Finally, many of liberal friends acquaintances would be quite amused to discover that some readers here consider me "liberal", many of my political views are actually quite "conservative", I just think it's been extraordinarily stupid of the American conservative movement to let itself get captured by a bunch of people who believe for example that current healthcare insurance industry practices make sense and are politically sustainable.

The result has been that conservatives (for example) threw away their very real leverage on healthcare reform and walked away with nothing when for example they could easily bargained for substantial "tort reform", expansion and improvements of healthcare savings accounts and high deductible private insurance, and a lot of other things - but instead completely dealt themselves out of the process of shaping this bill.

IMO, that's been a very high-risk strategy, and unless Republicans can manage to take at least one house of Congress this fall the the wing of the party is interested in actually influencing and making policy is going to have to start negotiating with the Democrats (you can't retain political power in Washington if have painted yourself into a corner where you can't accomplish anything of value for your constituencies). and that will set off a civil war in the Republican Party and the American conservative movement, and would further marginalize both.

[Michael Thomas]

I will sleep better knowing I won't be lined.

(Would the lines have been temporary or permanent (e.g., tattooed lines)? )

I'm flattered that some people at least are reading my comments so carefully:)

[Billy Stephens]

Just what it says: that irrespective of any other law (or regulation given the effect of law), no individual is subject to criminal prosecution for failure to pay the penalty for failure to obtain insurance (which is the only sanction attached to failure to obtain insurance).

The next section states that the IRS cannot lien or levy upon any property of a taxpayer who fails to pay such a penalty, i. e. that the IRS is prohibited from seeking effective civil recourse as well.

You could argue that given the lack of meaningful sanctions the whole plan may fail because people won't obtain insurance, what you can't reasonably argue in the face of that language is that people will be going to jail, or fined and lined or levied, for failure to pay the penalty for not doing so.
.
Irrespective of any other law:

Like say a Judgment?

Or Court Order?

Or Lying to the Federal Police.
* Oh I'm going to Get That There Insurance Officer.:eek:

Or Whatever subchapter B of chapter 68 referenced above A as"(1) In General The Penalty SHALL be paid upon notice and demand....
.
As I nor You have Esquire behind our names any other law covers a lot of ground.
.
Your above Post # 111 concerning It's still to be decided if the IRS can withhold funds?

Section B continues concerning Civil Penalty
*directly under Section A after the You cannot be put in Jail ( unless ) see irrespective.

B"(Limitations of Liens and Levy -The Secretary Shall Not
"(i) file notice with respect to any property of a taxpayer of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section or
"(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure."

So are you saying the Plain Language of the amendment ( not the Full Law) is Clear you cannot be put in Jail, But the question of if The IRS can withhold Funds ( take Your Property) has Not been Settled Yet?
,

[Michael Thomas]

Don't take my word for it, research the opinions of health care analysts (as opposed to talking heads and politicians) with regard to what that language means, and what it covers.

AFAIK the only potential loophole anyone has been able to find is the possibility that the IRS made might be able to withhold refunds to the extent of the penalties assessed for noncompliance - which a far, far cry from the claims of 16,000+ armed IRS agents kicking down doors to arrest the uninsured, or from even the IRS emptying bank accounts or seizing physical assets, which the IRS is allowed to do in most cases but which it is specifically forbidden to do in this one.

There are lots of problems with this bill (and with the healthcare system in this country generally), but it only complicates matters when politicians and media personalities continue to pump out misinformation even after it's been clearly established that some of it is little more than pure fantasy, and with the result that we have to spend time discussing wild hypotheticals and even outright fabrications instead of having serious discussions about to straighten out the mess we're in.

[Billy Stephens]

Don't take my word for it, research the opinions of health care analysts (as opposed to talking heads and politicians) with regard to what that language means, and what it covers.

AFAIK the only potential loophole anyone has been able to find is the possibility that the IRS made might be able to withhold refunds to the extent of the penalties assessed for noncompliance - which a far, far cry from the claims of 16,000+ armed IRS agents kicking down doors to arrest the uninsured, or from even the IRS emptying bank accounts or seizing physical assets, which the IRS is allowed to do in most cases but which it is specifically forbidden to do in this one.

There are lots of problems with this bill (and with the healthcare system in this country generally), but it only complicates matters when politicians and media personalities continue to pump out misinformation even after it's been clearly established that some of it is little more than pure fantasy, and with the result that we have to spend time discussing wild hypotheticals and even outright fabrications instead of having serious discussions about to straighten out the mess we're in.
.
Thanks,

We have a long way to go for sure.

The Courts Will be Involved with this Monstrosity and will surely weigh in.

The Point I'm trying to make is Nobody Really Knows.

The Years in the Federal Court System will ( if The Bill Stands) flesh out some of those pesky details.:rolleyes:
.

.

[Michael Thomas]

Patriot Act: Under section 802, at the discretion of the Attorney General US citizens can be held without charge, without being told why they are being held, without access to legal council, without any requirement to let anyone else know they are in custody and effectively without access to judicial review - essentially they can be "disappeared". Indefinitely.

Heath Care Bill: If you don't buy insurance you can be fined greater of $695 per year up to a maximum of three times that amount per family or 2.5% of household income, with exemptions for financial hardship, religious objections, American Indians, those without coverage for less than three months, incarcerated individuals, and those those for whom the lowest cost plan option exceeds 8% of an individual’s income,and those with incomes below the tax filing threshold (in 2009 the threshold for taxpayers under age 65 was $9,350 for singles and $18,700 for couples).

Which the IRS is effectively prohibited from collecting.

In my opinion, to compare the two and conclude that health care reform is a worse abuse of American citizens or American values than the Patriot Act - or even remotely in the same league - is a pretty pretty tough position to defend.

[Billy Stephens]

Patriot Act: Under section 802, at the discretion of the Attorney General US citizens can be held without charge, without being told why they are being held, without access to legal council, without any requirement to let anyone else know they are in custody and effectively without access to judicial review - essentially they can be "disappeared". Indefinitely.

Heath Care Bill: If you don't buy insurance you can be fined greater of $695 per year up to a maximum of three times that amount per family or 2.5% of household income, with exemptions for financial hardship, religious objections, American Indians, those without coverage for less than three months, incarcerated individuals, and those those for whom the lowest cost plan option exceeds 8% of an individual’s income,and those with incomes below the tax filing threshold (in 2009 the threshold for taxpayers under age 65 was $9,350 for singles and $18,700 for couples).

Which the IRS is effectively prohibited from collecting.

In my opinion, to compare the two and conclude that health care reform is a worse abuse of American citizens or American values than the Patriot Act - or even remotely in the same league - is a pretty pretty tough position to defend.
.
Michael,

The Social Security Act of ( 1935 ? ) States No One But The Social Security Administration can Compel You to Give Them Your Social Security Number.

Now How Effective is That Statue?

Lets Talk in a Few Years.
.

[Ted Menelly]

Amen brothers and sisters. We were gathered here this day of 04/16/2010 to come together to agree that this will be reviewed a few years from now. Hopefully, God Willing we will still be around. On this day in 2013 we will review all notes from this time and compare them to 04/16/2010

God willing we will have smiles on our faces and wiping the sweat from our brows thanking God that this was all some nasty nightmare and our politicians made the proper fixes so health care is better and not worse than it is today without choking the life out of the citizens of the US. At that time I will be 59 and I hope all my older friends are well taken care of at that time and for all time to come and not cj=hoke the life out of the American citizens.

That lady earlier that was over 100 that was pretty much put to her daughter I believe was better off dead than have the proper instrument placed in her so she may breath a few more years and the blood pump a few more years instead of the ass Obama telling her that sometimes it is better to take that last breath for the sake of society.

Sorry but what a freaking jerk. I don't care what the reasoning was. For anyone to tell anyone else that they are better off dead than taking the chance for a few more heart beets should be arrested and locked away in some dark place with little to no food and water until their dying days.