Can a electrical subpanel act as a junction box?

[Barrington Sheffield]

Good Morning,
I inspected a house a couple days ago and found a sub panel in the laundry room. The panel was not accessible to the home owner because rivets were put in the panel. The pan does not breakers and just seems like a junction box. The main panel is directly above it on the second floor. If access is denied to the occupant does this need to have breakers?

Barrington Sheffield
Aggie Property Inspections, LLC
Duluth, GA
http://www.myapinspections.com

[Rick Cantrell]

Sounds like this was the orginal location for the panel. A new panel was installed in a different location (upstairs).
This is not uncommon and is allowed.
Someone else on the board can tell you more.

[Trent Tarter]

This is allowed and is quite common in my area. Many times older panels get gutted and are used as junction boxes. They pull the feeds to the new panel location.

[Jerry Peck]

This is allowed and is quite common in my area. Many times older panels get gutted ...

Except that one was not gutted, they left the interior in there.

If they remove the interior it would probably be fine, but not with the interior still in there. (Removing the interior "panelboard" from the "cabinet" leaves you with just a "cabinet", and that use would be okay.)

[Darrel Hood]

Jerry P,
Why is the presence of the interior components harmful?

Darrel Hood
DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES

[Trent Tarter]

The remaining interior components (bus bar) was probably difficult to remove so they just left it there. It most likely has no way of becoming energized and is not a concern. However most times you see the panel entirely gutted.

[Nick Ostrowski]

The remaining interior components (bus bar) was probably difficult to remove so they just left it there. It most likely has no way of becoming energized and is not a concern. However most times you see the panel entirely gutted.

Not unless some yahoo gets a bright idea and decides he wants to try some DIY expansion of the electrical system. I'd say as long as the bus bars and guts remain inside the panel, it is a possibility.

[Jerry Peck]

Why is the presence of the interior components harmful?


Because:
- With the panelboard interior left in place it is "still" a panelboard which is not allowed to be used as a junction box.
- The panelboard interior bus bars, terminal bars, etc., have sharp edges which could damage the insulation of the wiring laying on them.
- With the panelboard interior left in place there is the risk that a damaged conductor could energize the panelboard, which could then lead to other conductors becoming energized.
- Because the listing on the panelboard in that enclosure would not allow it to be used that way - the only way is to use the cabinet *only* and then follow the listings for the cabinet and the requirements in the code for cabinets.
- Someone could intentionally energize the bus bar and insert some breakers, making that into one large dangerous mess.
- The above should do for starters. ;)

[chris mcintyre]

The panel was not accessible to the home owner because rivets were put in the panel.


Is it OK to use rivets on a "junction box"?

[Jerry Peck]

The panel was not accessible to the home owner because rivets were put in the panel.


Is it OK to use rivets on a "junction box"?


Nope.

Dang, I missed that part in the original post, had to go back and re-read the posts to find where that was. :(

[James Duffin]

Just an observation....if there is not a main breaker before the SEC/feeders get to this panel you could have both fused and unfused wires in this panel and that is a no-no. Most likely not an issue but worth mentioning.

[Billy Stephens]

.
Just an observation....if there is not a main breaker before the SEC/feeders get to this panel you could have both fused and unfused wires in this panel and that is a no-no. Most likely not an issue but worth mentioning.
.
If The Tooth Fairy Don't Come by Tonight, I Won't have My Ice Cream Money for Tomorrow.
* just an observation.
.

[Jerry Peck]

Just an observation....if there is not a main breaker before the SEC/feeders get to this panel you could have both fused and unfused wires in this panel and that is a no-no. Most likely not an issue but worth mentioning.

James,

Good point.

I presumed the 4-wire feeders were ... well, "feeders" ... as they are 4-wire. Typically (but not always) service entrance conductors will be 3-wire instead of 4-wire.

Service entrance conductors, being unfused at their source, are not allowed to run with other conductors while feeder conductors, being protected at their source, are allowed to be run with other conductors.

[Darrel Hood]

Jerry & Nick,
Thanks for your replies to my question. They make sense.

Darrel Hood
DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES

[Heron Longoria Jr.]

From what I understand , it is allowed as long as the "guts" have been removed, it's accessible, then it pretty much, basically becomes a giant junction box.

[John Kogel]

Nope.

Dang, I missed that part in the original post, had to go back and re-read the posts to find where that was. :(It looks to me like the rivets are in the hinged door, but the cover was removable by the screws. That's OK, right? With the breakers gone, it would Not be OK if the hinged door was Not riveted, IMO.

I believe the point was that the bus bars should have been removed, and that those large cables may not be service conductors. There are enough questions there to call for repair.

[Jerry Peck]

It looks to me like the rivets are in the hinged door, but the cover was removable by the screws. That's OK, right? With the breakers gone, it would Not be OK if the hinged door was Not riveted, IMO.


As a "junction box" the hinged cover needs to be permanently secured to the main part of the cover.

*IF* it was still a panel, that would be a major no-no.

[chris mcintyre]

It looks to me like the rivets are in the hinged door, but the cover was removable by the screws.

Good eye John, that is what I get for reading and not looking at the pictures.

I need to send this post to my mom, because she never believed me when I said I was reading and not looking at the pictures.:D

[Ian Page]

Hi all. Long-time lurker and Inspector - first post.
I don't think I would have 'popped' any rivets to take a look inside the box. Not without the homeowner's permission anyway. Even then I would be very hesitant. Undoing a few screws is a different matter. If I considered the panel/box to be suspicious, I would have called it just that and encouraged further evaluation by a licensed qualified professional. Is that too 'passing-the-buckish'?