Attic access problems

[Brian E Kelly]

I have had a few problems with getting access to the attic hatch. Yesterdays inspection the hatch was located in a small walk in closet that was chuck full of the owners cloths. I could not even get my ladder in the closet with out removing almost all of the cloths. I chose not to as the cloths were to numerous and expensive for me to move properly.
I had informed my clients that the access was not possible. My question is what should I do to solve this problem in the future or should I just report as not accessible?
I am going to in the future inform my clients to call the Realtor and inform them that the home owner must provide easy access to the attic entrance. Any input would be great,
thanks

[David Banks]

Brian I usually ask the Realtor and client if they would remove the clothes etc so I can access the attic. I then go on to other matters and when I get back it is done. I have never had a problem as most clients know this is to there advantage.
If you can not access the attic make sure you document that it was not accessible.

[Bruce Mayfield]

I was in an older house that had an attic opening of 13x15 inches. I am not a large person but I could not get my shoulders through the opening. In the cases where for some reason that I can not get into the attic at all I will alsoway not that on the report. I also inform the the buyers agent while i am still there to provide a heads up.

[Scott Patterson]

If the attic has a scuttle hole in a closet that is full of the owners items, I simply tell everyone that they can either empty the closet, remove the hanging bars and I will be glad to inspect the attic. Most of the time nobody wants to do this so the attic is not inspected, "due to owners items blocking the access."

I really do not worry about this. I would say that out of 100 homes I might have 10 homes with an entrance like this and about 5 of those are full of crap. If I'm in a good mood and everyone is nice, I will offer to come back at my convenience when the owner cleans out the closet.

[Rick Hurst]

Yeah, what Mr. Patterson said is the best way of handling it.

Once I attempted to place a ladder slightly against some clothing to get in the attic. As soon as I moved the panel, all of this cellulose insulation fell onto all the tops of these clothes. I tried to clean it up, but the more I tried the worse it looked on the clothes.

I was expecting the seller to raise a stinky over it, but they didn't. They apologized for not being prepared for the inspection. That you don't get very often.

[Jon Randolph]

I try not to move occupants property. Always try to get the client, realtor, seller, etc. to move them so you are not liable. I also carry a painters drop cloth and a small vacuum cleaner to clean up the insulation.

If you cannot gain access, be sure that you document that and the reason why.

[Nick Ostrowski]

"I could not even get my ladder in the closet with out removing almost all of the cloths. I chose not to as the cloths were to numerous and expensive for me to move properly."

Hey Brian, what were those clothes made of? Waterford Crystal? TNT? Nitro glycerin?

[Brian E Kelly]

No they are not crystal or other breakable items but they are someones cloths and i did not want to destroy or damage any of them. Nick how do you deal with this situation?

[Dom D'Agostino]

I tour the house upon arrival and look for attic access points. If I find a packed closet, I tell everyone that in about XX minutes I need the junk removed to gain access to the attic.

I carry a large (clean) sheet, and I will drap it over people's stuff if I need to. Have a vacuum that I just can't stand to dig out of the van, but if I need it, its there.

Dom.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Just having some fun with you Brian.

Honestly, I do whatever I can to get into the attic. If there are clothes in the way, I move them aside or put them on the bed. Boxes, I move them. There are too many things to possibly find in the attic for me to let somebody's Calvin Klein collection stand in my way. It's really a judgement call each of us has to make on our own. If I saw something up on the roof that made me say "I really need to see what's going onn in that attic" then I do what I can. Sometimes the owner has permanently installed shelving in front of the closet, then it's no go.

[Martin Baker]

If the seller is home, I ask them to make way. If not, I will move boxes and clothes when the hatch is indeed accessible. If not I dsclaim it loudly. I find my "Telespteps" ladder is pretty good at being poked through these hatches so as not to lean on anything. The ladder's case makes a great drop cloth, and wall protector! I also carry a dirt devil and sheet. Depending on what the roof and ceilings look like, I will at times exceed standard care to get in the attic, but I know I shouldn't, it's a bit risky.

[Jack Feldmann]

I also handle it like others here. I will move some stuff if it is not too much, but if the stuff looks expensive or just too much - I don't move it.

I had a seller file a claim against me with the BBB about how I "damaged" all her clothes. She wanted something like $300 - 500.

The hatch was damaged before I went in the attic (documented in writing and photos in the report). I went in without any problems, but sometime between my inspection and her complaint (a month or so) the hatch fell and go drywall dust and some insulation on a few jackets. She had photos.

I ended up settling with BBB for something like $21.00 for cleaning 5 or six jackets.

On another house, I set my ladder against an already overloaded cloest bar and the entire thing came off the wall. I told the sellers that if they emptied the closet, I would come back and re-hang the shelf/bar. Cost me about $5.00 in materials and about half hour in time.

I too carry a sheet and a dustbuster, and put my booties (shoe covers) over the top of my ladder when it leans against the wall.
JF

[Eric Shuman]

I'm with Jack on this one. After losing money because of damage to items I moved on a job, my standard policy is that I don't move other people's stuff.

I don't like to work for free and you never know what may be tucked in a closet behind the clothes or in a box that falls from a shelf. It is similar to why I do not light pilots, there is an unknown factor that might cost me money or worse.

My pre-inspection agreement clearly spells out that I need access to certain areas but I still make it a point to tell the client that they need to let the agents know that I need access to scuttles and panels, just like I make it clear that the utilities need to be on. The one time I don't mention these things prior to the inspection will be the one time the gas is off or I can't get to a scuttle.

If no one will move the things while I am on inspection I let them know that I can return later for an additional fee, which often times is paid by the seller or their agent since they dropped the ball. Even a rookie agent should know the drill for inspections.

[Fred Duemig]

When I am in the midst of booking a job, I ask certain questions, one being, Is there access to the attic? And then ask if it is accessed through a closet or a drop down. Sometimes they know and sometimes they don't, but I always tell them to make sure if the access is in a closet that the closet is cleaned out, shelving is removed and the hangar rod dismantled, or I won't be able to inspect the attic. Rarely is it not done before I get there.

Fred

[David Banks]

I would try your best to get to the attic. I have personally been in at least 5 attics with some pretty good fire damage. Client may be understanding at the inspection but when they own the home it may be different story.
No disclosure on any of them. Realtors were surprised when I came down and told them.

[Bob Harper]

I would think you guys had some sort of info. sheet for homeowners on how to prepare the home for inspection:
what to have 'on' or 'off', accessibility, people pets and junk out of the way, utilities still 'on', somewhere to park within one space of the property lines, etc. Experience would dictate what to include. This notification could be sent to both Realtors. That way, if anything is missed, such as a problem in the attic, it makes for a better case that they knew you wanted access up there but deliberately left it inaccessible hoping you wouldn't look, therefore it is a hidden defect. Just puts everyone on notice to cooperate so you can deliver the best objective inspection of the facts as they exist on that date and time.

As for attics being inaccessible, I know some would make that a case for not getting up on the roof. We've all seen enough patch jobs that would act like a trap door if you stood on that section of roof. How about leaning against a framed chase that is simply spiked into platform framing with 3 12d nails? I've repaired a number of chases where they either blew over by wind snapping off at the roof or when someone like me leaned against them. How about when you hop down 4 feet from a chimney onto a roof decked with 1/2" plywood?

How about all the things that would not get inspected?--Chopped off chimneys, disconnected stink pipes, clearances, wiring nightmares, water damage, missing or inadequate insulation, dryer venting into insulation, non-IC rated can lights buried under insulation, rotten roof sheathing, disconnected ducts, etc. --you guys know this better than me.

If there is not accessibility into the attic, then it should be written up as such.

FYI, LittleGiant makesa combination ladder that might be of interest. Can be configured as either step or extension. I still use my Telesteps though I've been wanting a Fire Dept. attic ladder for some time. Just can't justify the cost yet. Wes, you could stop by Alco-Lite and see them being made. They invented the aluminum ladder.

Of course, there is always the ever popular chainsaw that will make the cutout for a future skylight!!! Sounds like a real PIA.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has tried this approach.
TIA,
Bob

[Jim Robinson]

I have a sheet that I email along with my contract stating the various things that we need access to in the house. It usually helps. It does let people know ahead of time what we need to see in order to inspect properly. I don't know how often it gets all of the way to the seller, but it helps.

[Kenton Shepard]

If I can, I stick my camera up there and shoot a bunch of pictures and mention in the report that access was blocked.

[Eric Shuman]

Yeah Bob, All of that info is included in my Pre-inspection agreement that gets faxed or emailed to the client prior to the inspection. I also verbally tell them about access to items so they can pass it on to the agent. A lot of the agents that I have dealt with are on the ball, of course I'm sure some of them roll their eyes and those are the ones I will have utilities or access proeblems with.:(

As far as roofs, I will get on anything that is not too steep or not too high. I have found that I can get on the majority of roofs in my area. If I can't, My ladder goes up on every side of the house so I can view from roof level and at the very least I view with binoculars. I always inform the client as soon as possible how the roof or attic is inspected and it is also written in the report.

I agree that it is very important to get in the attic (as well as the roof) and will make every good faith attempt to do so before I disclaim such items.

As always, my safety and liability comes first!!:)

Eric

[Vince Santos]

When booking the inspection I tell my clients to let let the sellers know to remove all clothes and personal items from the closet to allow me to access the attic area. Of course that information does not always get passed on so either the realtor or buyer have to remove the items, if they are blocking the access, or it just does not get inspected.

A couple weeks ago I came across an attic entrance that was painted shut and could not be removed without breaking open the entrance. My clients realtor contacted the sellers and they agreed to allow me to break the entrance.

[Brandon Chew]

When booking the inspection I tell my clients to let let the sellers know to remove all clothes and personal items from the closet to allow me to access the attic area. Of course that information does not always get passed on so either the realtor or buyer have to remove the items, if they are blocking the access, or it just does not get inspected.


I know a lot of inspectors do not move things because they are afraid of claims from the seller that they broke or damaged something of value that belonged to the seller (My grandmother's ming vase was in that box on the shelf that you moved!).

Your general liability insurance (not your E/O) is there to cover you in case you break or damage property during your inspection. I recommend all inspectors have a discussion with their insurance agent and attorney to understand what their liability is in the event that any of the various parties who may be present during the inspection (seller, buyer, "uncle joe", seller or buyer's real estate agents, etc) do something that damages the property during your inspection.

[Randy Aldering]

The subject of liability is always an interesting discussion. It is always good to keep in mind that as a home inspector, we generally do not do any thing that a normal person would not do. If something occurs unexpectedly as a result of an action that should have been anticipated, then it seems reasonable that it is due to the seller's negligence.

What would a buyer do? Would they light a pilot light to see if the appliance was working? Unless they were woefully ignorant, they most likely would. Might they open an attic scuttle? Certainly.

It amazes me how Americans (and everybody else nowadays, it seems) like to blame others for their errors. A good home owner maintains their appliances, for example. If it is broken, a reasonable person would say so up front. A good home owner checks their attic once in a while. They would have insulation cleared away from the attic scuttle, or have it arranged so that it would not fall down out of the attic scuttle once the scuttle was opened. Glass vases should not be placed so that they fall out of a cupboard when the door is opened. Air conditioner evaporator coils should be kept clean, so they do not ice up. Air handler filters should be changed or cleaned to allow proper airflow through a heat exchanger or evaporator coil. Electrical systems should be maintained in safe working order. And so on.

Just because the home inspector came to visit does not mean that everything that went wrong was his or her fault. That's a little like blaming the dentist for cavities.

[j.Peter Buss]

Hi there
I am a new member to this site, and have a question ? I inspected a new home in chicago and it did not have an attic hatch installed, It appears a large attic is present. The builder is refusing to install the hatch, needless to say i cannot inspect attic interior to confirm conditions. I am wondering if this is a code issue requirement. At this point i have not found any written info about attic hatch installation requirements other than a furnace in attic requirements, Does any one have any info about this that i can share with this wonderful builder.

P S. I also am looking for gfci requirements at the kitchen island - No outlet installed
any info would be appreciated

Thanks

Peter Buss
Buss Inspection Services,Inc
Chicago

[Rick Bunzel]

Peter,

Good Question - my Code Check doesn't say anything about but I would be surprised if its not required. I don't know how the insulation installers or building inspector could access the area to check it.

Bob,

I am a fireman who gets to use an attic ladder on a regular basis and given a choice between my Xtend & Climb and a fire dept. attic ladder, I will take the Xtend & Climb. Its more versatile and stable. The FD attic collapse horizontally but are still 12 ft. long so you are back to the issue of banging walls when your carrying it around.

Attics - if they are inaccessible I take pictures and bring the issue to the attention of the client and REALTOR, and let them figure it out. I don't mind moving stuff but if theres a ton of stuff, its outside my scope to make it accessible.

//Rick

[Jerry Peck]

I am wondering if this is a code issue requirement. At this point i have not found any written info about attic hatch installation requirements other than a furnace in attic requirements, Does any one have any info about this that i can share with this wonderful builder.

If you are under the IRC, here is this: (if you are under some other code, I'm sure it's requirements are similar)

- SECTION R807
- - ATTIC ACCESS

- - - R807.1 Attic access. Buildings with combustible ceiling or roof construction shall have an attic access opening to attic areas that exceed 30 square feet (2.8 m2) and have a vertical height of 30 inches (762 mm) or more.
- - - The rough-framed opening shall not be less than 22 inches by 30 inches (559 mm by 762 mm) and shall be located in a hallway or other readily accessible location. A 30-inch (762 mm) minimum unobstructed headroom in the attic space shall be provided at some point above the access opening. See Section M1305.1.3 for access requirements where mechanical equipment is located in attics.


P S. I also am looking for gfci requirements at the kitchen island - No outlet installed any info would be appreciated

From the 2005 NEC.
- 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
- - (C) Countertops.
- - - (2) Island Counter Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each island counter space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. Where a rangetop or sink is installed in an island counter and the width of the counter behind the rangetop or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.) the rangetop or sink is considered to divide the island into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4).

Here is 210.52(C)(4): (4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (2), and (3).

[Erby Crofutt]

It seems poor ole Bob Harper ain't going to hear from anyone who tried the chainsaw approach.

Notify them of requirments ahead of time and that you charge if you have to go back.

Here's the PDF file I use for this purpose.

Pre-Inspection Requirements (http://b4uclose.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/pre-inspection_requirements.pdf)

Comes in handy for days like today.

Two hatches. Both blocked by storage and shelving.

Can't say I didn't warn them.

It's a wonderful day when you wake up in the morning!

[Billy Stephens]

Erby,

You might want to add:

Remove vegetation from around the foundation and overhanging limbs from the roof. :)

[Matt Fellman]

The pre-inspection contact with the seller is the most logical solution but the most difficult. I have sent out 'how to prepare the home' marketing stuff to my regular agents but that doesn't do me a lot of good for houses I inspect.... maybe it's making the life of some of my competition a bit easier.

When you ask 100 buyers on the phone if there is clear access to the attic 99 of them will say "Um, I dunno...." - I chalk it up to one of the few downsides to an otherwise great profession. Whenever I'm faced with a closet full of dirty socks I try to remind myself how happy I am to not be sitting in a cubicle.

I'm like the others if it's not too much, too expensive or too gross I'll move it.

[Jerry Peck]

Erby,

You start off talking to your client in the first person with "You as the client" and then switch to referring to your client in the third person, as in: (underlining is mine as you already have some in bold)

"As returning to this home to perform a re-inspection prevents us from scheduling another full inspection during the re-inspection time, there WILL be a re-inspection fee charged to our client to return to the home for a re-inspection of those items necessary. Our client is encouraged to seek reimbursement of the fee from whoever failed to ensure that these issues have been addressed."

I would re-write that to read in the first person all the way through, the section above, for example, could be:

"As returning to this home to perform a re-inspection prevents us from scheduling another full inspection during the re-inspection time, there WILL be a re-inspection fee charged to YOU, our client, to return to the home for a re-inspection of those items necessary. YOU, our client, are encouraged to seek reimbursement of the fee from whoever failed to ensure that these issues have been addressed."

That puts more emphasis on them ... "YOU, our client".

Also "The gas (or propane)," ... ? I thought "propane" 'was' a "gas". :confused: :)

I didn't read it all, but you might want to review it for editing. ;)

[Matt Fellman]

Total aside from the topic but somewhat relevant..... I've taken to calling these a 'completion inspection' rather than 're-inspection' - mainy just to clearly define what I'm there to do.

[Erby Crofutt]

Stick your neck out around here, and sure as hell, someone (or two) will show up to make it better. Thanks!

Around here (localism) people differentiate between natural gas and propane with "gas" and "propane".

Yeah, they are both gases, but Kentucky is Kentucky.

Kentucky Real Estate Sales "At it's Finest" (http://activerain.com/blogsview/311075/Kentucky-Real-Estate-Sales)



-

[Rick Souter]

Hey there.
If a vapour barrier and caulking are sealing an attic hatch, is the hatch still deemed accessible.
Naturally it would be accessible with the aid of a utility knife, but I'd appreciate some input.
Thanks, Rick

[Rick Cantrell]

Hey there.
If a vapour barrier and caulking are sealing an attic hatch, is the hatch still deemed accessible.
Naturally it would be accessible with the aid of a utility knife, but I'd appreciate some input.
Thanks, Rick

The decision is yours.
Seems that many inspectors will not cut the caulk.
I'm kinda in that crowd myself.

[Rick Souter]

The decision is yours.
Seems that many inspectors will not cut the caulk.
I'm kinda in that crowd myself.


Thanks Rick,

I'll include myself in the group as well, not interested in any form of backlash.

What I'm really wondering though; is an appropriately sized hatch deemed "accessible" if indeed you'll need to cut your way through a continuous vapour barrier and associated caulking to do it?
Should one be required to use special tools (well maybe not so special) and have special knowlege to just open an attic hatch.

I'm aware the code is pretty vague about anything other than size, depth and location.
Anyway...I'm throwing it out there in hopes that I can be enlightened.
Thanx
Rick

[Rick Bunzel]

Rick,

As the person on the spot and responsible for any "damage" that occurs you need to make that call. Most of us have had the owner / realtor calls that the "inspector" damaged the home. One example is not getting a clean cut and tearing the sheet rock paper. I had this happen and even though it was in the master closet this particular client said every time she walked into her closet she saw the "damage". I am reluctant to cut the hatches in the more open areas without the approval of the realtor and my client. If I don't get approval the areas is in accessible until the seller makes it accessible. I then get to do a re-inspection.

//Rick

[Rick Souter]

Rick,

As the person on the spot and responsible for any "damage" that occurs you need to make that call. Most of us have had the owner / realtor calls that the "inspector" damaged the home. One example is not getting a clean cut and tearing the sheet rock paper. I had this happen and even though it was in the master closet this particular client said every time she walked into her closet she saw the "damage". I am reluctant to cut the hatches in the more open areas without the approval of the realtor and my client. If I don't get approval the areas is in accessible until the seller makes it accessible. I then get to do a re-inspection.

//Rick

Hi Rick & Rick,

Thanks for your responses.

Unfortunately I was tossed into the mix about an upcoming inspection with an uncooperative homeowner

Think the owner will now be making access possible if he's interested in selling.

Rick

[John Kogel]

Depends on the house. If it could have been sealed to hide a problem, I'd be inclined to find a way to get the camera in at least.

The sellers left a Ford Flex parked under the attic hatch. So now we know the roof of a Ford Flex is kind of like an oil can, like it flexes pretty good, eh? :D

[Ian Page]

It really is your call. whatever you feel comfortable with as long as you comply with your State's and organizational sop. However, if you decide not to gain access to the attic, for whatever reason, make sure you photograph the reason why as well as recording it in the report. The same applies to whether the crawl or attic space is fully accessible. A few pics of the obstructions may be worth their weight in gold if some deficiency is discovered in the future. I find I am taking more and more pics these days, many of which are just CYA and for my own benefit.

Like others I also carry a clean(ish) old bedsheet for covering clothes etc and use a mover's blanket on the floor under the hatch for my ladder to stand on.

[Raymond Wand]

November 12, 2005Check sealed areas during home inspection
Check sealed areas during home inspection (http://www.aaron.ca/columns/2005-11-12.htm)

[Rick Souter]

November 12, 2005

Check sealed areas during home inspection


Check sealed areas during home inspection (http://www.aaron.ca/columns/2005-11-12.htm)

Thanks for the input fellas.

Its an adventure out there huh? ;)

That was an interesting read Raymond.

Turns out there were three such attic hatches in a new home. In the end, the buyer decided not have them cut open.

Duly noted decision of course.

R

[Joe Funderburk]

Put this in your PIA:

"***The inspector will not open gas or water valves, light pilot lights or gas appliances, activate electrical services that have been turned off, or cut locks open. All utilities must be turned on, breakers turned on, all water and fuel valves must be opened, all pilot lights lit, all rooms and crawl spaces must be unlocked, and all components such as attics and panel boxes must be accessible prior to the inspection.***"