There are over 12 different types of stucco/EIFS cladding

[Benjamin Gromicko]

There are over 12 different types of stucco/EIFS cladding.

To be able to identify the "stucco" system you must understand system components.

You should understand the basic components of the most common stucco systems. Some homes have multiple systems on them. At times it may not be possible to identify the system. Occasionally the cladding will not be a standard system but rather a combination of components or systems.

Use this FREE document (pdf download) to learn how to inspect the common types of stucco and EIFS cladding.

What if your next inspection is a house covered with stucco? Do you know how to identify the type of siding - as required by your Standards of Practice? Don't learn from your mistakes. Get some training. Start here.

Checklist for inspecting stucco and EIFS (http://www.bengromicko.com/checklist-for-inspecting-stucco-and-eifs.aspx)

[Dan Harris]

There are 24 reasons I would strongley recommend using this company.
The ASHI School Home Inspection In the Field Training (http://www.theashischool.com/) for any inspection training anyone needs

Here are the first 12

1- They provide hands on training.
2- They are experienced professionals
3- They only use experienced inspectors to teach.
4- They respect this site and don't spam it to get leads.
5- They don't take dollars from their training courses and use them to sue other inspectors
6- They are affiliated with a nationally known, respected HI org.
7- They don't lie to the public on an open to the public web site about other inspectors
8- They don't tell the public only one group of inspectors are only qualified to inspect a home.
9- They don't try to get customers by hijacking someone website by leaving an [n] out of a website
10- They don't call me a scumbag, dumb and stupid if I don't buy their products
11- They don't sell useless non-verifed certificiations.
12- They don't sell their products with the statement " I can possibily make millions if I pay them a membership fee. :D

[Benjamin Gromicko]

There are 24 reasons I would strongley recommend using this company.
The ASHI School Home Inspection In the Field Training (http://www.theashischool.com/) for any inspection training anyone needs

Here are the first 12

1- They provide hands on training.
2- They are experienced professionals
3- They only use experienced inspectors to teach.
4- They respect this site and don't spam it to get leads.
5- They don't take dollars from their training courses and use them to sue other inspectors
6- They are affiliated with a nationally known, respected HI org.
7- They don't lie to the public on an open to the public web site about other inspectors
8- They don't tell the public only one group of inspectors are only qualified to inspect a home.
9- They don't try to get customers by hijacking someone website by leaving an [n] out of a website
10- They don't call me a scumbag, dumb and stupid if I don't buy their products
11- They don't sell useless non-verifed certificiations.
12- They don't sell their products with the statement " I can possibily make millions if I pay them a membership fee. :D
I agree.
I was an ASHI member for many years. I love the Reporter magazine.

[Jim Luttrall]

And, there are at least a dozen reaons why I don't give a $hit.:D

AD, I know you like the fight but the "ignore" feature works well for people that are known for less than helpful self promoting posts.
This ignore feature does not keep the riffraff out when legitimate users quote them though.
If Brian chooses to allow their posting, the least we can do is to ignore and let them fade into obscurity without perpetuating their lunacy.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

http://www.bengromicko.com/images/PB-EIFS-bengromicko.jpg

Barrier or Face Seal PB EIFS

This is the most common type of EIFS. PB = Polymer Based. Barrier means that the system is designed such that water should not get behind the exterior surface.

Components of Barrier
· EPS insulation adhesively or mechanically attached to a substrate
· Polymer Based Base Coat with embedded fiberglass mesh
· Acrylic Finish Coat

Things to look for to Identify a Barrier PB EIFS clad home:
· EPS foam insulation (by itself EPS does not mean the cladding is EIFS)
· Fiberglass mesh
· Thin lamina (base coat, mesh & finish coat); about 1/16 inch
· The wall surface gives slightly to hand pressure
· Typically no accessories although PVC starter tracks or casing beads are allowed
· Sounds hollow when tapped
· Typically adhesively attached to substrate (OSB, plywood, etc.)

Base Coat for PB EIFS
· Trowel applied
· Weather resistant layer
· The fiberglass mesh provides the impact and crack resistance
· Encapsulate the mesh with base coat.
· Applied in 1/16 inch thicknesses

[Dan Harris]

And you are telling us what?
I can see that you are good at pasting and posting, and posting someones photo, that most likley copy written, by a professional stucco company.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

And you are telling us what?
I can see that you are good at pasting and posting, and posting someones photo, that most likley copy written, by a professional stucco company.
It's a copy/paste from a book and course I wrote in conjunction with Ron Huffman, expert instructor and founder of EDI Exterior Design Institute - Ronald Huffman (http://www.exterior-design-inst.com/huffman.html)
Here's Ron with 5 Tips to Inspecting Stucco and EIFS: Stucco/EIFS Inspection Tips - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/stucco-eifs-tips.htm)
Enjoy.

[Dom D'Agostino]

More commercials from someone with an agenda.

Big yip, move along....

[Benjamin Gromicko]

http://www.bengromicko.com/images/MD-EIFS-bengromicko.jpg

Moisture Drainage MD-EIFS

The basic installation appears very similar to Barrier PB EIFS with one additional component. A Moisture Barrier and drainage plane is first placed over the moisture sensitive substrates. PVC accessories are permitted but not required. Most systems have a weep screed (PVC starter track with weep holes), but not all systems. Historically they were mechanically fastened thus they flex more than PB EIFS; however, the most advanced systems are now adhesively attached.

Each system is proprietary thus there are many variations.

Things to look for to Identify a MD-EIFS Clad Home:
· There will be a moisture barrier over the substrate
· EPS foam insulation (by itself EPS does not mean the cladding is EIFS)
· Fiberglass mesh
· Thin lamina - about 1/16 inch
· The wall surface gives slightly to hand pressure
· There may be accessories such as PVC starter tracks or other drainage provision at bottom of wall
· Sounds hollow when tapped
· Typically mechanically attached to substrate (OSB, plywood, etc.) although new systems adhesively attached to liquid applied membranes

[John Carroll]

This last post illustrates perfectly that EIFS systems can only be determined as drainage or barrier thru destructive testing, that is, some portion of the system must be removed to see what components lie beneath. Simply applying a checklist does not work. Looking hard doesn't work, and tapping certainly doesn't work. Please leave system determination to EIFS professionals. Get a solid result you can trust. Hire a pro.
This commercial brought to you by someone who knows, not someone who took a class...:cool:

[John Carroll]

...or bought a book.:eek:

[Dan Harris]

...or bought a book.:eek:

John .. If you have a book to sell, you might as well jump in and advertize it here for free, help trash this site, and make it look like the site that the gromicko brothers own.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...Please leave system determination to EIFS professionals. ...
Sorry. We can't. I refer you to any home inspector's SOP. Home inspectors are required to identify the type of stucco or EIFS.

Both ASHI and InterNACHI SOPs require the inspector to "inspect" and "describe" the siding, its flashing and trim. By definition, describing the siding means to "identify (in writing) a system or component by its type or other distinguishing characteristics."

To say a house has "stucco" is not enough. The siding must be identified by its type. Home inspectors are held to a very high standard.

"Destructive testing"... That is a good way to inspect the siding. HOWEVER home inspectors are RESTRICTED to performing NON-destructive, VISUAL-ONLY inspections. We can't do destructive testing. Not allowed by our SOP.

To inspect a house with stucco or EIFS cladding, a home inspector (required to perform an inspection using visual-only inspection techniques) is REQUIRED BY THE SOP to inspect the siding WITHOUT using destructive measures, which John recommends is the only way.

Since home inspectors can't identify the siding using destructive measures (such as the ones recommended by John), home inspectors must know more about stucco and EIFS than most stucco/EIFS professionals! IMHO

Our hands are tied behind our backs, yet we're held to the same standard - that is - we're both REQUIRED TO IDENTIFY THE SIDING.

If only we home inspectors could just blow a hole in the walls here and there... our job would obviously be much easier.

I am proud to be a home inspector who's held to such a high standard, while restricted to such a limited arsenal... knowledge and eyes.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

You are FOS, as usual. Please illustrate to us where the Texas SOP requires identification of the type of exterior caldding...
TREC SOP should be eliminated. IMHO

[Dan Harris]

TREC SOP should be eliminated. IMHO


IMHO .. Instant on-line, non-verified home inspector certifications , and SOPs written at the whim of one or two people should be eliminated.

Oh wait they are one by one and are being replaced with the states taking control. :D

[Benjamin Gromicko]

IMHO .. Instant on-line, non-verified home inspector certifications , and SOPs written at the whim of one or two people should be eliminated.

Oh wait they are one by one and are being replaced with the states taking control. :D
I was simply sharing the opinion of a very intelligent TX inspector about the TREC SOP who seems to have a good argument.

Inspecting and describing the siding is very difficult requirement to which home inspectors must comply, considering the visual-only, non-destructive inspection of techniques that must be employed to inspect "stucco" siding.

[Steven Turetsky]

I started reading this thread but became bored. The facts posted are obviously cut and pasted. And although each individually is correct, as presented they will get you nowhere.

The very same componants that are in a Barrier system are in a Water Managed System... plus more. And although it is sometimes possible to determine if a system is Water Managed without destructive testing, it is almost always necessary to remove a piece of the system to be sure.

Yes, I feel that a home inspector should be able to determine if a system is EIFS, but the facts that have been posted will not get him anything more than get him in trouble.

The best thing a Home Inspector can recommend to his client is to recommend that an expert EIFS inspector be called in to test the system. As far as testing goes, if you really want to know what an EIFS system is doing, it is going to require invasive testing. Also, if you are going to inspect EIFS, you had better lose the "A Home Inspector is a generalist" spiel. and "call in a specialist." An EIFS inspector is a specialist, and on every day of the week, he had better be prepared to make recommendations and specify repairs. He had also be prepared to lock horns with the "experts" that have been "doing it this way for thirty years"

If you want to confirm this, you can verify it with Ron Huffman, who in my opinion is one of the most knowlegable experts in the field. As far as being "THE FOUNDER" of EDI, well, check with Ron, see if he agrees with you. If Ron is busy, call Ray Lynch, he is usually available during regular business hours.

You really should be careful what you sell and how you use people's names.

[Matt Fellman]

I started reading this thread but became bored. The facts posted are obviously cut and pasted. And although each individually is correct, as presented they will get you nowhere.

The very same componants that are in a Barrier system are in a Water Managed System... plus more. And although it is sometimes possible to determine if a system is Water Managed without destructive testing, it is almost always necessary to remove a piece of the system to be sure.

Yes, I feel that a home inspector should be able to determine if a system is EIFS, but the facts that have been posted will not get him anything more than get him in trouble.

The best thing a Home Inspector can recommend to his client is to recommend that an expert EIFS inspector be called in to test the system. As far as testing goes, if you really want to know what an EIFS system is doing, it is going to require invasive testing. Also, if you are going to inspect EIFS, you had better lose the "A Home Inspector is a generalist" spiel. and "call in a specialist." An EIFS inspector is a specialist, and on every day of the week, he had better be prepared to make recommendations and specify repairs. He had also be prepared to lock horns with the "experts" that have been "doing it this way for thirty years"

If you want to confirm this, you can verify it with Ron Huffman, who in my opinion is one of the most knowlegable experts in the field. As far as being "THE FOUNDER" of EDI, well, check with Ron, see if he agrees with you. If Ron is busy, call Ray Lynch, he is usually available during regular business hours.

You really should be careful what you sell and how you use people's names.

Totally agree.... I keep getting listing agents telling me "Oh, this isn't the bad stuff" - this is the "new" hardcoat stucco. Or, "It's EIFS installed over hardcoat". Given the high risk of this stuff I now have a no nonsense approach: Unless it's true old style hardcoat (as in, sounds like concrete when you hit it and looks basically like a sidewalk) it gets the "specialist needed" spiel. It's just too much of a circular path everytime I try to nail someone down as to what the product is and how it was installed.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...The facts posted are obviously cut and pasted. ...

If you want to confirm this, you can verify it with Ron Huffman, who in my opinion is one of the most knowlegable experts in the field. As far as being "THE FOUNDER" of EDI, well, check with Ron, see if he agrees with you. If Ron is busy, call Ray Lynch, he is usually available during regular business hours.

You really should be careful what you sell and how you use people's names.
Thank you for the advice.
Ron and I produced an online training course specifically for home inspectors to inspect stucco and EIFS. The previous information came directly out of that online course we developed and produced. That's why it appears to have been cut and pasted... we wrote it.

Upon successfully completing the course Ron and I produced, a residential home inspector should be able to:
OBSERVE wall claddings on a property and identify the common stucco systems (There are over 12 different types of stucco & EIFS common to residential and commercial properties);

APPLY non-invasive, visual-only inspection techniques, as required by the inspector's Standards of Practice;
IDENTIFY points of concern about the stucco or EIFS installation or its condition; and
REPORT your findings to your clients in a concise, factual manner that is specific to the property Those are things that all home inspectors not only should be able to do, but are required to do.

You brought up a good argument about the limitations of the home inspectors knowledge. However, home inspectors are still required to correctly inspect and identify; yet many home inspectors do not know how to visually inspect and identify "stucco" cladding using visual-only inspection techniques. Reporting that a house has "stucco" is not enough.

BTW: Steven, I see Ron Huffman every week. We spend every Tuesday together, every week, brain-storming about new ideas on how to train home inspectors on various topics. Just had a breakfast meeting with Ron yesterday, and we're spending the entire day on Tuesday next week at InterNACHI headquarters.
You're invited to join us. Check with Ron.
Performing Home Inspections in Colorado for over 20 years | Huffman Inspections, Inc. (http://www.huffmaninspections.com/)

[Jim McMillan]

In his posts Mr. Gromicko seems to believe that he and organizations with which he is associated have the right to make inspection guidelines that supercede individual state standards. North Carolina has used the ASHI SOP as a "guideline" for developing our SOP and has subsequently developed a state SOP (through a tremendous state agency) that is well thought out and professionally developed with input from many different groups. Inspectors in NC are required, by law, to abide with the letter of that law and follow the NC SOP. However Mr. Gromicko appears to presume that he, and those that he has a financial consideration with and to, have the right to make determinations of what constitutes "describing" a component or system (exterior siding) that supercedes the individual state standards.

There are obviously a number of different companies that design and manufacture "EIFS" type products. However, to assume that every inspector should have intimate knowledge of each of these products is akin to assuming that every inspector should know everything about every type of component and system used in construction practice today in every part of the US, and possibly the western hemisphere. There is no organization that can logically "require" or expect every inspector to have that knowledge. It is our job to use the knowledge and experience we DO have as generalists (rather than specialists) in order to determine if a "specialist" in a particular area should be called in for a additional evaluation of a particular component or system. I dare say that no home inspector, even the most esteemed and knowledgeable constributors to Inspection News, will admit to knowing "everything about everything". It would appear to me that Mr. Gromicko does not represent the interests of the Home Inspection Professional, only the interest of his purse.

[Steven Turetsky]

Inspecting EIFS is never limited to the EIFS, and in most cases, when there is a failure, it is rarely the EIFS that has failed. Most failures usually involve a problem at a transition between the EIFS and the adjacent constructiuon. An EIFS inspection is also a Building Envelope Inspection and Moisture Analysis.

As far as "old fashioned stucco", well, any stucco system whether it be polymer based or sand based should be inspected by someone that specializes in that type of cladding, same thing goes for stone veneer. I find similar prolems with all of these systems. Many of the faults are similar.

A Building Envelope Inspection consists of visually looking for faults and/or weak points. Determining the moisture content to determine what is really happening. Determining the extent of the damage, and then you have to determine a solution.

An expert does not prescribe total removal as the only solution. How do you tell someone with 10,000 sq.ft. of a cladding, to remove the entire system, if there are one or two failures involving a small portion of the system? And yes, at some point, you may have to recommend total romoval.

Another reason you must test invasively is that not every fault is a failure. Imagine recommending thousands of dollars in repairs or retrofits, and when the system is removed, you find little or no damage.

On any given day, you must be prepared to put your cherries on the line.:eek:

[Benjamin Gromicko]

In his posts Mr. Gromicko seems to believe that he and organizations with which he is associated have the right to make inspection guidelines that supercede individual state standards. ....
.... North Carolina has used the ASHI SOP as a "guideline" for developing our SOP....
...Mr. Gromicko appears to presume that he, and those that he has a financial consideration with and to, have the right to make determinations of what constitutes "describing" a component or system ...
Hm...
Once a State has required an inspector to follow a certain SOP, that's it. A privately developed home inspection Standard would never "supersede" a state law. That would be absurd.

Let's see what NC SOP says...

NORTH CAROLINA HOME INSPECTOR Code of Ethics and Standards of Practice (http://www.ncashi.com/north_carolina_home_inspectorStandards_co.htm)

According to the NC SOP to which you refer:
The home inspector shall observe the wall cladding, flashing and trim.
The home inspector shall describe the wall cladding materials.According to the NC SOP - Describe means to "Report in writing a system or component by its type, or other observed characteristics, to distinguish it from other components used for the same purpose."

According to the NC SOP, a home inspector should be describing a house clad with "stucco" by its type - for the purpose of DISTINGUISHING it from other claddings.

WOW! That's a challenge IMHO, since there are over 12 different common types of stucco and EIFS, and home inspectors are required to inspect ONLY VISUALLY, not invasively. (If only home inspectors were allowed to probe...)

The point of this whole thread is - Do most inspectors know the 12?

[Dan Harris]

The point of this whole thread is - Do most inspectors know the 12?


All any member here has to do is post a photo or question and they will get an honest and straight answer from some of the most experience inspectors in the counrty, WITH OUT paying some one for that information.
That is provided to us due to the fact there are many honest venders choose to not spam this site to sell their product, and pay to market their products and inspection training here.

I believe the point should be most of the inspectors here DO KNOW that there are many ways to figure that out without paying you and your brother
over $500.00 to find out.

[Jim McMillan]

Mr. Gromicko has correctly quoted the NC SOP. However, there is stucco, or there is artificial stucco, or a combination of both. There are a number of companies who manufacture artificial stucco systems, and these use various components in a multitude of combinations as the manufacturer sees fit for their proprietary use. Regardless of the manufacturer the basic installation and application of these products, and the installation and application of non-proprietary components that are used in conjunction with the different brand systems, is essentially the same. As a masonry specialist, or professional "stucco" contractor, you may well have a need to know all there is to know about every possible "stucco" system, and any combination thereof. And as a home inspector it would certainly be interesting to have that knowledge, and many of us may indeed have that knowledge.

However, and contrary to Mr. Gromicko's implication, in NC all we are required by law to know, and report, is that the product is either "stucco" or "artificial" stucco, and how to recognized areas of potential failure and whether there has been, or could be, a failure that is "readily visible" (no assumptions). There is no stated or implicit statement in the NC SOP that would necessitate having the intimate knowledge of each system as Mr. Gromicko seems to be suggesting. Again, it would be interesting to have all of this knowledge, just as it would be interesting to know and understand each and every aspect of all facets of construction. But from the inspection standpoint this is not practical, or needed.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

... There is no stated or implicit statement in the NC SOP that would necessitate having the intimate knowledge of each system as Mr. Gromicko seems to be suggesting. Again, it would be interesting to have all of this knowledge, just as it would be interesting to know and understand each and every aspect of all facets of construction. But from the inspection standpoint this is not practical, or needed.
I disagree.
Knowledge = Power.

As an educator, teaching ONLY what is required by an SOP, is unethical. IMHO
Inspectors who know ONLY what the SOP requires them to know hurt the general public. IMHOWe teach inspectors as if they want to know everything, regardless of what the SOP requires them to know or do.

That's an awesome challenge, and I strive to do my best to that goal.

And so (if you've been following along...), the 3rd type we'll go over:

http://www.bengromicko.com/images/PM-EIFS-home-inspector-ben-gromicko.jpg
PM components include:
· Extruded Polystyrene (XPS) mechanically attached
· Heavy fiberglass mesh, mechanically attached
· Thicker basecoat ¼ to 3/8 of an inch
· Control and expansion joints; limit 144 sq. ft.
· Plastic or metal trim accessories

Things to look for to Identify a PM-EIFS Clad Home:
· XPS foam insulation
· Exposed heavy open weave fiberglass mesh
· Thick lamina; ¼ to 3/8 of an inch
· The wall surface is hard and firm
· Should have PVC or metal accessories
· Sounds solid when tapped
· Mechanically attached to substrate (OSB, plywood, etc.)
· Typically no drainage plane or Moisture Resistive Barrier

[Benjamin Gromicko]

Here's an excellent sample report of an EIFS inspection using visual-only inspection techniques by an expert in the inspection industry. Excellent sample report that you can download from Mr. Turetsky's website.

Excellent sample report, Steven. IMHO

As you can see from this sample report, inspectors CAN and DO perform certified stucco/EIFS inspections using visual-only, non-destructive inspection techniques.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Despite who may have authored or contributed or "produced" the product you are cut-and-pasting B.G., I would like to know WHO OR WHAT ENTITY OWNS the copyright.

I'd appreciate a prompt reply. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[Steven Turetsky]

Ben,

Thank you for the compliment. I feel like a movie star.

Yes, it is a good report for a LIMITED, non intrusive inspection. (the key word is limited), and there are times that you cannot do an intrusive inspection. With everything that report told that client, it is a pity it did not tell him if his building was rotting out from under him. BUT, that is what he wanted, so that is what he got.

As good as that report may or may not be, I personally do not recommend a limited inspection to my clients. But yes, sometimes there is no choice.

By the way, that particular report is a very early report. These days, I rarely do visual only inspections, and when I do, I make it very clear that the information is limited.

Without testing the moisture content there is no way to determine if there is any damage/or the extent of the damage to the structure below. Without testing the moisture you are only guessing... you really don't know.

Prior to that inspection, in addition to about 30 years of construction experience, I spent a great deal of time and effort studying with The Exterior Design Institute. I also spent a great deal of time studying EIFS on my own and was involved in its installation.

Since that inspection, I spent even more time at EDI, getting better and learning even more about what I knew... or thought I knew. I've also been involved in other moisture intrusion and BE studies.

Yes, because of what I learned, and because of my experience with EIFS, I can tell you a great deal about your EIFS home just by doing a visual inspection. But the biggest thing I learn when I do a visual is where I have to check for deeper problems.

After my first stint with EDI, I also thought that I could evalute a home with visual only. But after learning more, I know just how limited visual only is.

Quoting my instructors at EDI, when I told them I was doing visual inspections, "you cannot... and should not do an inspection without checking the moisture content." There were and are correct.

Now, my recommendation to anyone that REALLY wishes to inspect EIFS is to learn everything about it. No disrespect to you, I do not know you, but the only place I would ever recommend for learning about EIFS is EDI. They are the best and they specialize in EIFS inspector training. I don't have any confidence in anything less.

I don't want to knock anybody that is trying to teach basics to HI's about EIFS. But your statement

"Since home inspectors can't identify the siding using destructive measures (such as the ones recommended by John), home inspectors must know more about stucco and EIFS than most stucco/EIFS professionals! IMHO"

... really is silly. And when you mention a book that you wrote "in conjunction with Ron Huffman," sir. can you tell me what exactly does that mean?


Also, just like any training course, you don't leave the course as an expert, or anything close to an expert. A student out of cooking school doesn't start off as a head chef. You learn the very basics.

Years ago, I knew a Martial Artistst that learned everything he knew from a book. He could spin some really deep bulls_ _t. But when the rubber hit the road, he got his ass kicked.

Ben, I never have and I never will get involved in the association politics. I have good friends in all associations. I also know some real A-holes from all associations. I have no problem with anyone that is a successful businessman. If you can create a good product and market it well, you deserve to be successful. I do have a problem with Snake Oil salesmen that prey upon the weak.

If you would like, send me a copy of what you are promoting. I will look over it with an open mind. If you want me to critique it, so long as I can opine honestly, it would be my pleasure.

As far as cutting and pasting, so long as it is done honestly, and credit is given where due, I have no problem with someone going to multiple references and compiling a handbook of helpful facts or information.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

S. T.,

A delightful read, very well developed and written.

Thank you.

H.G.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

Despite who may have authored or contributed or "produced" the product you are cut-and-pasting B.G., I would like to know WHO OR WHAT ENTITY OWNS the copyright.

I'd appreciate a prompt reply. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
My friend, Ron Huffman. I may own the pictures - I can't remember.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...
Now, my recommendation to anyone that REALLY wishes to inspect EIFS is to learn everything about it. No disrespect to you, I do not know you, but the only place I would ever recommend for learning about EIFS is EDI. They are the best and they specialize in EIFS inspector training. I don't have any confidence in anything less.
...
I agree. And that was the spirit behind the course, video, publications of Ron and me. We always recommend getting an EDI-certified inspector to do probing. Our work essentially fed leads (new students) to EDI.


...But your statement
"Since home inspectors can't identify the siding using destructive measures (such as the ones recommended by John), home inspectors must know more about stucco and EIFS than most stucco/EIFS professionals! IMHO"

... really is silly. ...
Nope.
Not silly. Think of it as a "challenge."
It's a challenge to home inspectors who are unaware of how difficult it is to actually inspect stucco. I'd rather set the bar for home inspectors really high, than to bring it down and tell them, "Oh... You'd better just stick to your SOP and leave the complex, difficult stucco/EIFS inspecting to "professionals" who know it all and want to keep it to ourselves." Hee hee.

Nah. It's good to be taken out of your comfort zone, and be told that it's possible (just possible) we've been doing it wrong all along and it's not adequate to just report, "It's stucco. I think. Get a pro to tell you more, while I hide behind my generalist, home inspector SOP."

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...And when you mention a book that you wrote "in conjunction with Ron Huffman," sir. can you tell me what exactly does that mean?....
The course we produced comes with a book. It like around 500 pages if I remember correctly.


...
If you would like, send me a copy of what you are promoting. I will look over it with an open mind. If you want me to critique it, so long as I can opine honestly, it would be my pleasure.

As far as cutting and pasting, so long as it is done honestly, and credit is given where due, I have no problem with someone going to multiple references and compiling a handbook of helpful facts or information.

I'm not promoting anything, other than what I'm PASSIONATE about - training inspectors and professionals using online technology.

Remember - You all keep asking me "Where does this information come from?"

Now, Steve, what you ask is very dangerous around here.
All, Steve has requested to look over and critique something. He asked me!
Steve, here's the link that YOU ASKED FOR. It's a promo with Ron Huffman. Ha. Just kidding (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/index.php).
(http://www.nachi.org/stucco-eifs-tips.htm)

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...
As far as cutting and pasting, so long as it is done honestly, and credit is given where due, I have no problem with someone going to multiple references and compiling a handbook of helpful facts or information.
http://www.bengromicko.com/images/ron-huffman-stucco-eifs-inspection-training-ben-gromicko.jpg
I have only one reference when it comes to stucco and EIFS, my buddy, Ron Huffman, founder of EDI.

[Ted Menelly]

The course we produced comes with a book. It like around 500 pages if I remember correctly.



I'm not promoting anything, other than what I'm PASSIONATE about - training inspectors and professionals using online technology.

Remember - You all keep asking me "Where does this information come from?"

Now, Steve, what you ask is very dangerous around here.
All, Steve has requested to look over and critique something. He asked me!
Steve, here's the link that YOU ASKED FOR. It's a promo with Ron Huffman. Stucco/EIFS Inspection Tips - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/stucco-eifs-tips.htm)


How convenient, huh Ben? Funny how it just worked out like that....huh?


And all that is the only reason you are on here. I have no idea what kind of arrangement you have with Brian but I assume it is to stop what you are doing (because you work it that way to get PROMOTED) because it is blatant free advertising.

You see Ben. You just have absolutely no way of hanging with the guys because the only reason you are on here is to promote you own commercial business in training and selling and getting a cut from etc etc etc You live for nothing else and care about nothing else. You are a promoter, marketer, salesman and every breathing day is spent in making the right moves in so many places and spend as little as possible and try to con the world. I have known people like you all my life and saw right thru them with the first meeting. The con game is what you are all about. It is kind of a shame because I know the cons so so well. I could be filthy stinking rich but I just cannot force myself to do it and still look at myself in the mirror.

You cannot honestly say that you came here for any other reason than promote you and sales and cuts and links etc etc etc.

You did not come to chit chat with the inspectors and be their buddy.

You know a man ( even though he was insulting quite often) got banned from here for not following the rules.

You have no shame in continuing to do the same thing and think nothing of it. You know. You did not have to guess where he was coming from or what he was all about. No one can say the same for you. You are a flim flam man and a sham. Sorry. If the truth hurts then clean it up and it won't hurt so much. Try opening you mouth and say "Hi folks. This is a very interesting site and I am looking forward to reading in and contributing when ever possible. I look forward to chatting with you folks in the future." Hm....what do you do. You pop right in promoting yourself and sales and end game and partners and organizations all for an absolute big zero in investment and you can reach 13000 members and if there are that many members just think of the crowd I can get in front of that are not members.. Sell to the home owners. Sell to the inspectors. Sell to the siding men and eifs men. Sell, sell, sell, sell. No it is not like a home inspector that may get in front of a buyer on a rare occasion and just might get an inspection out of it. Percentages just are not there.

You have no choice but to try and hang with the guys and continue to promote your multi-leveled businesses because if you just quit outright the 13000 folks that are members here would see right thru you.....Got a bit of information for you.....They already see right thru you so it is safe to back off now and bow out.

Pay for the advertising thru banners and such like all the other marketers on here do.

See the banner for the ASHI school. You could pay for a banner like that. Oh, wait, you don't have to. You can get it for free.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

How convenient, huh Ben? Funny how it just worked out like that....huh?
....
I knew you'd take it that way. :) So, I changed the link for ya.

Can't believe it. Ah, well. Guilty by association, and always will be?
I hope to change you mind.


So... Let's go to another type of stucco that home inspectors should be able to identify and describe:

Modern Polyisocyanurate (PI) EIFS
http://www.bengromicko.com/images/PI-EIFS-inspection-ben-gromicko.jpg

These systems perform much better but have lost the economy that they originally had.

Most current PI systems require:
· Substrate
· Moisture Resistive Barrier
· Joints must be base-coated and meshed
· Then PI insulation board must be fully meshed and base coated

[Nolan Kienitz]

Brian,

You indicated that you would be doing something about getting rid of this blatant advertising and yet he is still here.

I've written you personally asking that you address his blatant advertising.

... By the way ... don't forget Lisa as well.

You jumped all over AD ... some may have been deserved, but at least AD was holding people honest and attempting to have them learn and do the right thing.

Yes, he is "in your face", but he is also the client's best friend. Lord help the builder who tries to scam a client when AD is representing them.

You need to jump all over the advertising that Ben, Lisa and others from that realm keeping foisting on the readers and sucking up your bandwidth.

[Jim McMillan]

Nah. It's good to be taken out of your comfort zone, and be told that it's possible (just possible) we've been doing it wrong all along and it's not adequate to just report, "It's stucco. I think. Get a pro to tell you more, while I hide behind my generalist, home inspector SOP."[/quote]

Is Mr. Gromicko implying that there is something detrimental in being a generalist? If we don't buy into Mr. Gromicko's thinking are we indeed "hiding" behind or home inspector license? Are all doctors that are licensed as "General Practicioners" "hiding" behind there medical license? Me thinks not. Me thinks that Mr. Gromicko is attempting to convince us that we all "need" what he is selling. Sorry, I don't subscribe to that line of thinking. I expect this type of flimsy sales tactics from used car salesmen. And by the way, when I tried to download the "free" information from his website it was not free, but $.50. (Oh, I'm sorry, but the tires on your used car cost extra!)

[Dan Harris]

Here's an excellent sample report of an EIFS inspection using visual-only inspection techniques by an expert in the inspection industry. Excellent sample report that you can download from Mr. Turetsky's website.

As you can see from this sample report, inspectors CAN and DO perform certified stucco/EIFS inspections using visual-only, non-destructive inspection techniques.

I agree that Mr Turetskys report is a good sample report addressing visual and common defect items on exterior wall coverings.

I fail to see why an inspector would need to pay for additional basic information that should be included in any home inspection training.

My suggestion to Mr Turesky. Since ben is using your sample report as a marketing tool to sell his course, instead of allowing him to use it for free, you should consider charging nickes little brother .50 everytime some one checks out your site :)

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Who owns the copyright to the book? What or who is the publisher? WHAT IS THE NAME OF THIS SO-CALLED 500 pg. BOOK/REFERENCE MATERIAL?I don't give a hoot about the video you "produced". and PLEASE DO NOT POST MORE OF YOUR ORGANIZATION(S) various LINKS, I'm tired of not getting a specific direct reply.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

Who owns the copyright to the book? What or who is the publisher? WHAT IS THE NAME OF THIS SO-CALLED 500 pg. BOOK/REFERENCE MATERIAL?I don't give a hoot about the video you "produced". and PLEASE DO NOT POST MORE OF YOUR ORGANIZATION(S) various LINKS, I'm tired of not getting a specific direct reply.
H.G.,
Feel free to call me directly. 303-862-2611. That would be a lot more effective. I await your call anytime on Monday. You could also Skype me "ben-gromicko".

In answer to your question: Ron Huffman is the author. He owns the content. I published it. I contributed to it as editor and publisher. It is included with the online video course. You can't get the book separately from the course. The course is free.
I hope that helps.

If there are links that you don't like, I do apologize. I do not mean to be a spammer, like many say here. But my work is all online. That's what I do. Online education. - online education for a particular association that has a lot of "history" and "baggage" that happened long before I joined.

When people ask information about what I do or have developed, my response may link back to my work. For example, someone wanted to know to what capacity I worked with Ron Huffman, and I linked back to a video on NACHI.TV.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...Is Mr. Gromicko implying that there is something detrimental in being a generalist? ...
Not at all.
However, being a generalist should NOT prevent an inspector from being specific, particularly when required to identify the type of "stucco" cladding on a house.

Saying, "The house is covered with stucco," seems to be a disservice to the client.

Why?

It's too general. My 8-year old daughter could deduce that.



And by the way, when I tried to download the "free" information from his website it was not free, but $.50...
That's incorrect. Most of the downloads at the website to which you refer are free. Go to my website, click the "home maintenance" tab, then click the "home maintenance information for homeowners" tab

Show me where anything under that tab (home maintenance information for homeowners) is for sale, and I'll give it to you for free.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...
I've written you personally asking that you address his blatant advertising...
Nolan,
I respectfully disagree, and I do apologize if you believe the following information is "blatant advertising." Training inspectors and other professionals is what I do. I love it, and am passionate about sharing knowledge. Please allow others to enjoy the information in this thread.

Please call me directly anytime. My personal cell is 303-862-2611. Skype me "ben-gromicko"

----


Direct Applied Exterior Finish System (DA or DEFS)

Historically, DEFS had lamina directly applied to an approved substrate such as DensGlass or Cement Board (No insulation board).
http://www.bengromicko.com/images/DEFS-stucco-eifs-inspection-bengromicko.jpg
Current specifications call for cement board in all exposed wall areas, while DensGlass or equal is approved in protected areas. Originally mesh was only required at joints in approved substrate. Now all manufacturers require that the mesh cover entire wall surface. DEFS uses system accessories. Each system is proprietary thus there are a number of variations.

[Dan Harris]

Saying, "The house is covered with stucco," seems to be a disservice to the client.

Why?

It's too general. My 8-year old daughter could deduce that.
.

You claim to be a former inspector that inspected thousands of homes. If that's true, prior to deciding you can make more money selling what you claim to be continued education by scamming / posting free advertizing on home inspector chat boards, what did you tell your customers about stucco walls?

[Benjamin Gromicko]

(1) You claim to be a former inspector that inspected thousands of homes. (2) If that's true, prior to deciding you can make more money selling what you claim to be continued education by scamming / posting free advertizing on home inspector chat boards, what did you tell your customers about stucco walls?
(1) I was an inspector for 12 years. Performed thousands of inspections. Southeastern PA. Peach Home Inspections.

(2) I am NOT making more money being a Certified Distance Education Instructor. Ha! Hardly.

Before attaining proper training and knowledge, I made many mistakes. As I think back on my inspection career, I wonder how much I missed. That's what motivates me to bring great training for inspectors with online education.

[Steven Turetsky]

I have very mixed emotions about everything that has been discussed in this thread.

First off, I am not really so concerned about any free advertising that may or may not be occurring. In my opinion, that is not my concern. I'm sure that Brian Hannigan is very aware of this and every thread that appears on this forum. He is the one that has to deal with it. He is the one that has to answer to any paying advertisers that want to know why they have to pay, and others don't. And really, who really knows what has transpired behind the scenes.

As far as a Home Inspector knowing basics about EIFS, I think they should. Anytime I've ever read a post, and some home inspector asks "how can I tell if it's EIFS?" I wonder how good of an inspector can this guy possibly be if they don't even know that much? The same red flags that pop up when looking at any type of cladding should pop up when looking at EIFS. But for some reason they act like it's something from outer space.

Imagine asking; "How can I tell if it's aluminum or vinyl siding?" or "How can I tell if it's a gas or oil fired furnace?"

Regarding the "book" that is a matter of this discussion, well, as a stand alone product, although as I previously stated, the material may be factual, it is incomplete. I think it will be more confusing than helpful. In conjunction with a class, just like any power point presentation, it can be helpful.

I watched one of the presentations that Ron Huffman gave. Ron is very good and knows a great deal. He is also a very honest and honorable man. Ron has my full respect.

There was one statement that Ron made during his presentation that bothered me very, very much. It was; "As you know, home and commercial property inspectors are required to inspect the siding and describe the exterior wall covering to the Internachi Standards of Practice."

Does that mean that Internachi's SOPs are the only Assoc. SOPs recongnized? Or does that mean I don't have to follow my state's SOPs? Perhaps the SOPs are similar, so technically, that statement may or may not be true. It just didn't sound right. I actually found it insulting.

And Ben, you keep saying that Ron is the founder of EDI. If you check the link that you provided for Ron, to EDI. Why would it not say that on his profile? FYI, Ray Lynch is the founder of EDI.

Now, as far as the link to my website/report. Ben, please remove the link. You and/or your book and/or your class had nothing to do with the knowledge that put that report together. I prefer it not be used for this purpose. If not. I will have to remove the report, and then what you are doing will have an effect on me. That will not make me happy. Please respect my wishes.

As far as the certification that one will achieve after completeing your course. Since as I stated previously, without full testing, you really don't know what is happening, will your "Certified Stucco/EIFS Inspectors" tell the clients that the are not stucco/EIFS experts and are only certified in the basic surface faults? Will they warn the client, just like I do when they ask for a visual inspection only, that although I can tell them a great deal by doing a visual, they really won't know for sure what is happening?

Be careful, I'm sure you think what you are doing is good. But it is dangerous. Partial knowledge can be more dangerous than no knowledge. You are putting your inspectors in harms way, you are putting the public in harms way.

[CHARLIE VAN FLEET]

brian

please stop this trash--please

charlie

[Rich Goeken]

Brian,

You indicated that you would be doing something about getting rid of this blatant advertising and yet he is still here.

I've written you personally asking that you address his blatant advertising.

... By the way ... don't forget Lisa as well.

You jumped all over AD ... some may have been deserved, but at least AD was holding people honest and attempting to have them learn and do the right thing.

Yes, he is "in your face", but he is also the client's best friend. Lord help the builder who tries to scam a client when AD is representing them.

You need to jump all over the advertising that Ben, Lisa and others from that realm keeping foisting on the readers and sucking up your bandwidth.


I agree totally!!!!!!!! I too am concerned about AD being banned. Someone here is very thin skinned about this. If you have ever been on any construction site----AD's comments, while colorful, is like it is...... The only ones offended are the people that have made stupid comments and AD is responding. He is not as diplomatic about crap as others, but he provides the needed balance and the contractor would not be able to slide something by in an inspection.

I posted a comment on a different thread about Lisa or what ever his or her name really is. Lock posts! Problem solved.

As for advertising. I got this far in this thread and got very tired with the same picture and the same 39 steps. The way I see it is the HI sees a stucco wall, identifies it as real or a Memorex. Inspects for proper installation, proper caulking, proper height from roof, deck, ground, flashing installed correctly, edges treated, moisture, etc.

Not anything that they wouldn't do normally in an inspection of any home with any type siding. Does he or the homeowner really care if it is a AYZ system or a QJK system? Gee whiz Capt. Marvel, don't think so----as whatever the system is it must meet common installation features such a serviceability, water tightness, etc.

If the HI determines it doesn't meet basic requirements for a siding---recommend that a specialist be brought in to furnish additional specific information. Don't need the book, movie, trip to Orlando for training to figure this out.
Let's kill posts that are blatant advertising! One warning to them---phaser blast the next ad.



Rich

[Steven Turetsky]

I agree totally!!!!!!!! I too am concerned about AD being banned. Someone here is very thin skinned about this. If you have ever been on any construction site----AD's comments, while colorful, is like it is...... The only ones offended are the people that have made stupid comments and AD is responding. He is not as diplomatic about crap as others, but he provides the needed balance and the contractor would not be able to slide something by in an inspection.Rich

I haven't commented on AD getting banned because I thought perhaps something new happened that I may have missed. But if all that happened is the same ole AD, I regret his absence.

AD was AD, sure he could have been more diplomatic at times, but then it would not have been him. He made me laugh, and although I may not have agreed with everything he said, I agreed with most. He made me think about things from different aspects. I've also seen others that disagreed with him present a good arguement and sometimes prove their cases.

I would recommend him anyday.

Yes, I miss AD.

[Dan Harris]

(1) I was an inspector for 12 years. Performed thousands of inspections. Southeastern PA. Peach Home Inspections.

(2) I am NOT making more money being a Certified Distance Education Instructor. Ha! Hardly.

Before attaining proper training and knowledge, I made many mistakes. As I think back on my inspection career, I wonder how much I missed. That's what motivates me to bring great training for inspectors with online education.

After reading all of the replies to your, what you call on-line education, .. If you believe you are helping other home inspectors by offering on-line education instead of real class room training, where the inspectors/students can have Live, Hands on Training, In the Field Nearly Every Day, Learn by Doing and discuss the topic with the teacher and other inspectors in the class ... I Really hate to be the one to break the news to you..... If you are really motivated on helping inspectors make less mistakes that you did.
You should also wonder how much your on-line students are missing from you new career.

Maybe you should continue trying to get better at driving your supper dupper dodge hemi truck over some more of your books that you copied from another former vender on your site:D

[Dan Harris]

Ben. I was shocked when I noticed your name was not on the list, on the current update posted by Brian today of members who donated $s to help keep this site free

[Benjamin Gromicko]

Ben. I was shocked when I noticed your name was not on the list, on the current update posted by Brian today of members who donated $s to help keep this site free
Oh. I didn't know. How do I do it?

[Benjamin Gromicko]

After reading all of the replies to your, what you call on-line education, .. If you believe you are helping other home inspectors by offering on-line education instead of real class room training, where the inspectors/students can have Live, Hands on Training, In the Field Nearly Every Day, Learn by Doing and discuss the topic with the teacher and other inspectors in the class ......

I believe there is great value being brought to inspectors who not only need but prefer live, traditional classroom training. For that type of training, I highly recommend the ASHI School. (no link here, I don't want to get accused of spamming). But I think Mr. Casey is doing a great service to hundreds/thousands of inspectors by bringing the live classroom into the market. It's a big challenge (considering the benefits of online education, eUniversities and online video), but the ASHI School will surely be prosperous. I would love to work in cooperation with the ASHI School somehow.

For example, there's only so much that you can do online when teaching about stucco. A live classroom setting is very helpful indeed, particularly when you have to learn how to tap or press on the cladding and listen to its sound in order to comply with an SOP requiring identifying the cladding by type.


...
Maybe you should continue trying to get better at driving your supper dupper dodge hemi truck over some more of your books that you copied from another former vender on your site:D
Hmm... I don't understand. Please be extremely specific and detailed in your response, but I'd rather you call me directly at 303-862-2611 my cell. or ben@nachi.tv. That's a serious accusation, but likely based upon some simple mis-information that I can clear up.

[Scott Patterson]

I believe there is great value being brought to inspectors who not only need but prefer live, traditional classroom training. For that type of training, I highly recommend the ASHI School. (no link here, I don't want to get accused of spamming). But I think Mr. Casey is doing a great service to hundreds/thousands of inspectors by bringing the live classroom into the market. It's a big challenge (considering the benefits of online education, eUniversities and online video), but the ASHI School will surely be prosperous. I would love to work in cooperation with the ASHI School somehow.

For example, there's only so much that you can do online when teaching about stucco. A live classroom setting is very helpful indeed, particularly when you have to learn how to tap or press on the cladding and listen to its sound in order to comply with an SOP requiring identifying the cladding by type.


Hmm... I don't understand. Please be extremely specific and detailed in your response, but I'd rather you call me directly at 303-862-2611 my cell. or ben@nachi.tv. That's a serious accusation, but likely based upon some simple mis-information that I can clear up.

Ben, if you want to work with ASHI Education you might try contacting Mike Casey and or Kevin O'Malley. They should be able to help you.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...He made me laugh, and although I may not have agreed with everything he said, I agreed with most. He made me think about things from different aspects. I've also seen others that disagreed with him present a good arguement and sometimes prove their cases.

I would recommend him anyday.

Yes, I miss AD.
I agree.
If AD was banned because of the conversations between he and I, then I think that's between he and I.
I have a thick skin (and a thick skull :) ). I don't need protection.
Bring AD back in.
I look forward to my conversations with AD again.

[Steven Turetsky]

Thank you.

[Rick Cantrell]

I don't know Ben, except from his resent postings here on IN.
I don't know anything about his videos or other works.
The only thing I do know is that he has shown that he responds in a respectful way, even when provoked (which has been often).
For this I commend him.

[Dan Harris]

Oh. I didn't know. How do I do it?

How do you do it??

Dumb, stupid, scumbag me [ per your brother ] found it at the bottom of this page.. InspectionNews Donations (http://hanntech.com/payment/donation.html)

If your not making enough money to pay for advertizing here, I would also suggest paying for Brians Cost of doing business class. :D

OBTW: If you cannot find the info on Brians class, click on the guy with his head stuck in the sand on the upper left side of the front page. No one can miss that. It kinda reminds me of inspectors that think they can get certified by taking an on-line quiz, and some on-line courses. :D :D

[John Carroll]

Whenever I start to take myself too seriously, I come to this site and visit with the experts at it. Does wonders for my self esteem...:rolleyes:

[Rich Goeken]

It kinda reminds me of inspectors that think they can get certified by taking an on-line quiz, and some on-line courses. :D :D


Gee... You can't do it that way??? Heck, I was all set......... :(

[Benjamin Gromicko]

NEXT....

Traditional or Three-Coat Stucco

http://www.bengromicko.com/images/Stucco-EIFS-traditional-3-coat-inspect-training-education-ben-gromicko.jpg
Look for the following basic components:
· Portland Cement Stucco
· Requires a Moisture Barrier, metal lath and accessories on Moisture Sensitive Substrates but not on concrete or masonry substrates
· Hard & prone to cracking
· Requires control or expansion joints every 144 sq ft over lath and 250 sq. ft. without lath
· Metal or PVC casing bead or J-bead or weep screed
· Scratch, brown and finish coats

[Jerry Peck]

NEXT....

Traditional or Three-Coat Stucco

http://www.bengromicko.com/images/Stucco-EIFS-traditional-3-coat-inspect-training-education-ben-gromicko.jpg
Look for the following basic components:
· Portland Cement Stucco
· Requires a Moisture Barrier, metal lath and accessories on Moisture Sensitive Substrates but not on concrete or masonry substrates
· Hard & prone to cracking
· Requires control or expansion joints every 144 sq ft over lath and 250 sq. ft. without lath
· Metal or PVC casing bead or J-bead or weep screed
· Scratch, brown and finish coats

Ben,

Your posted information needs to have some clarification: 1) some of it is incorrect - provide documentation on where you got the information from, such as the code, ASTM standards, etc.; 2) the drawing/photo is not very clear, but if it shows what it looks like it shows to me, the lath is an incorrect type; 3) there are other problems too.

[Jerry Peck]

Between the information which has been provided by Ben and Aaron's antics, as course and crude as they were, I would take accurate information given crudely over inaccurate information passed off as "free educational" crap any day.

Brian, you made a big mistake on this one, either both (and the others involved in it too) or none should have been banned.

Brian, granted, Aaron may have egged you on and you felt you had no choice, but in that same time you either missed or ignored Ben's postings of crap information ... to me, you booted the wrong person ... :eek: :(

[Benjamin Gromicko]

Ben,
Your posted information needs to have some clarification: 1) some of it is incorrect - provide documentation on where you got the information from, such as the code, ASTM standards, etc. ...
Please refer to previous posts. Again, the information comes from an online video course produced by me with Ron Huffman as the instructor.


.... 2) the drawing/photo is not very clear, but if it shows what it looks like it shows to me, the lath is an incorrect type; ....
I'm forwarding your question to Ron.


.... 3) there are other problems too. ...
I'll pass them on.

[Dan Harris]

Please refer to previous posts. Again, the information comes from an online video course produced by me with Ron Huffman as the instructor.


I'm forwarding your question to Ron.


I'll pass them on.


LOL ...I thought you are the expert/ instructor that's approved by the states.

Now I understand the comment that taking on-line courses at your own pace is a good thing. :D
If I paid good dollars for a course, asked a question, then got this answer after waiting for two days for an answer , I would be pi-sed.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

LOL ...I thought you are the expert/ instructor that's approved by the states. ....
Oh, there you go again.
You are funny.
I'm not an expert in anything. I am an approved instructor in some states for some courses.

As a Distance Education Instructor for Professional Training and Continuing Education, I work in collaboration with other Directors of Education throughout the world, industry experts and resources specific to the industry. I develop, market, administer, assess, and continuously improve and expand the online courses and related programs under my direction.

Remember, online education is very different from traditional, live classroom. In a live classroom, a student only "gets" what the instructor can verbally communicate on that day. In an online setting, the student sets the learning pace, and the curriculum is essentially unlimited in scope and content. There are pros and cons for each format, both are essential.

[mathew stouffer]

Steven,
What is the class you recommended, there is an online class. It's about 800 dollars.

[Benjamin Gromicko]

...the drawing/photo is not very clear, but if it shows what it looks like it shows to me, the lath is an incorrect type; ...
I asked Ron about the lath. His response:
"There are two gauges of stucco netting one is heavier than the other. The
stucco netting we used is the lighter gauge and it looks like chicken wire;
however, it is an approved stucco netting. Many parts of the country only
use diamond lath; it also comes in two weights."

[Steven Turetsky]

Steven,
What is the class you recommended, there is an online class. It's about 800 dollars.

The only on-line class that I can attest to is from EDI (Exterior Design Institute).

It is a great starter course. More than enough information for a Home Inspector.

[John Carroll]

Expanded metal lath comes in THREE types, 1.75, 2.5, & 3.4.
Now, can the "expert" tell us what these numbers mean?
Good thing I don't come here for correct info, only laughs!:cool:

[Steven Turetsky]

Too easy. If you want to make this a learning session, add; what factors are considered when selecting which lath to use.

[Rich Goeken]

A good reference on metal lath installation may at found at

NAAMM Standard EMLA 820-09 (http://www.naamm.org/landing_pages/EMLA_920-09.htm)

"Guide Specifications for Metal Lathing and Furring".

[Tom Mcdonald]

A Question for John Carroll and Dan Harris,

I am in Tucson and most of my inspections are in the "Stucco Jungle". Most of my 800 plus inspections have been on stucco homes. I have only had one that was not an obvious standard stucco system. I was told by the seller that it was Pre engineered panels and wrote it up that way in my report. Is This EIFS or something else.

I have never seen what I thought was EIFS here in Tucson, Am I missing something?

Thanks
Tom McDonald
Certified ASHI inspector

[John Carroll]

Not sure,Tom. Pre-engineered panels could be almost anything, do you have any pictures?

I don't think EIFS is done anymore on residential production homes out your way, You will probably see more 1-Kote stucco out here on homes with some of the custom homes employing a synthetic, or EIFS manufacturers such as Dryvit, Senergy or STO, acrylic finish coat.
If you want to go see what EIFS looks like, go to most any Walmart, Sam's Club or major food store like Albertsons or Safeway that has been built in the last ten years, and more than likely part of it will have EIFS.

[Tom Mcdonald]

Thanks for the reply John.

I dont have any pics, I inspected the house about two years ago I was working for another company so I dont have access to the report anymore. It was obvious panels with metal joints every four feet as well as the top and bottom. I did not see any evedence of moisture intrusion although the hose had a covered patio all the way around.

Most Stucco homes here are single coat, although some older ones are the old three coats (scatch, brown, and color) at least thats what we called them 30 years ago when I was "slinging mud' just out of high school...... Boy, I was in good shape back then.

There is a brand new Wal-Mart here in Oro Valley. I will go poke and prod it next week.

Thanks again

[Bob Elliott]

“Five years from now on the web for free you’ll be able to find the best lectures in the world,” Gates said at the Techonomy conference in Lake Tahoe, CA today. “It will be better than any single university,” he continued.

Above is a quote from Bill gates.

I print the above because I can not believe the closed minds here.
ASHI Inspectors full of hate for a man that came here to educate through the internet that you guys hate so much that you hang out here looking for answers.
What hypocrites.

Now go here Bill Gates: In Five Years The Best Education Will Come From The Web (http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/06/bill-gates-education/) try to learn something from this internet link that you all claim can not be learned from even though all of you come here asking or answering questions.
perhaps we should all just jet to each others homes to ask in person to make sure we are not learning the NACHI way.:rolleyes:

P.S I give Ben a hard time on the NACHI forums for being a single minded salesman, but that does not change how valid his message is.
Yes he is not good at being one of the guys.:)

[Jerry Peck]

but that does not change how valid his message is.


The problem is not just the validity of Ben's message but also of the accuracy of his message - inaccurate information leads to not being pertinent or valid.

[Bob Elliott]

The problem is not just the validity of Ben's message but also of the accuracy of his message - inaccurate information leads to not being pertinent or valid.
Please explain what in his course is incorrect ,as I am sure if you provide proof with a verifiable source he will make corrections.

[Rich Goeken]

Please explain what in his course is incorrect ,as I am sure if you provide proof with a verifiable source he will make corrections.


Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.

[David OKeefe]

Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.
I believe he said he was not an expert and he does not teach courses in this subject. Reread post #65. Your statement is inaccurate.

[Rich Goeken]

I believe he said he was not an expert and he does not teach courses in this subject. Reread post #65. Your statement is inaccurate.

I disagree---didn't want to go here, did not want to pick, but read the following posts (I stopped at #44): #7 - Expert implied by association with "expert"; #25 - reference to doing Training; #40 - Reference to doing On-line education; #42 - Reference to doing Training; #44 - Reference to giving Instruction.

Yes, in post #65 he does say he feels that he is not an expert. Who does admit they are an expert? Do you? I don't, although I have been in my field for many years. If you want to split hairs--yes he did say that he isn't. However, the unspoken implication is there based upon the variety of accomplishments. Experts make mistakes, we all do. But, Ben's heart is in the right place.

As for the other issues---I always remember my engineer's pencil---it has an eraser on both ends! (Sorry engineers) :D

[Bob Elliott]

Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.

I am suspect of what?
Was information being attacked or a person?
Drama

[Rich Goeken]

Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.


Sorry to everyone--- clarification needed here!!! "B G's" = Bill Gate's. Apologize for any confusion. :(

[Benjamin Gromicko]

http://www.bengromicko.com/images/Stucco-EIFS-traditional-1-coat-inspect-training-education-ben-gromicko.jpg
Basic Components include:
· Many are proprietary requiring ICC Evaluation Reports.
· Portland Cement Stucco with polymers and fiberglass reinforcing.
· Requires a Moisture Barrier on moisture sensitive substrates.
· Hard surface which helps resist impact damage.
· Control joint are required but spacing is to be specified by the design professional (typically to limit panels to 144 square feet).
· Metal lath (stucco netting or diamond lath)
· Metal casing bead or J-bead or weep screed
· Minimum 3/8” basecoat plus finish coat

The incidence of cracking is dependent on the materials used and installation techniques. May or may not have foam insulation behind stucco; it can have EPS or XPS insulation behind the system. This does not make this an EIFS system as defined by stucco or insurance industries. One-Coat Stucco systems are very popular since problems with EIFS have surfaced.

[Steven Turetsky]

Reposted

Sometimes I get all "forum'd out," and may not come around for a while. Because of that, it is possible that I may have missed something. I am really not privy to, nor do I wish to become privy to all of the politics. I do not know Ben Gromiko, nor do I know much about him. I believe there are 3 sides to every story… your side, my side, and what really happened.

There have been some complaints about free advertising that I agree with. But, I don't think that if BG came here, took out an ad, and said; "hey guys, I'm trying to develop an on line course for inspectors, about EIFS," that he would have gotten any different reception.

G-D knows, some HIs do need help with EIFS.

I did notice that the moment he stuck his head up, the responses were more personal in nature, as compared to factual. Guys, that is getting so boring.

Now, like I said, I really don't know Ben. Maybe he is Dracula in disguise... or Dracula’s brother and he's not in disguise, and he just looks that way.

But, unless he bit Ron Huffman on the neck, anything that Ron is connected to, at the very least deserves the respect of an open mind. Personally, I value what I learned from Ron Huffman and I appreciated his input during a past EW case. He is a good man and he is a nice man. I respect his integrity and credentials.

What bothers me is the certification part. In the EIFS world, a Certified EIFS Inspection is a very specific item. And although technically, anybody that takes a online class, is "Certified," and in the real world may very well be capable of doing a Home Inspection of an EIFS home, really isn't qualified to do an EIFS inspection... a real EIFS inspection. The kind that if any one of us had a Grandmother that lived far away, we would advise her to get.

I am reminded of a true story. My family was in the meat business for generations. Years ago, my brothers had an opportunity to invest in a pig that was being developed that would have been kosher. They didn't invest, which was good. It turned out the project failed because the Chief Rabbis did not accept the pig. They felt that because of the similarity to the non-kosher pig, people would not be able to tell the difference and choose the wrong one.

By the way, my first EIFS class was online (EDI). I think it was great! It gave me the opportunity to learn at my own pace. Which also means I could read and reread as much as necessary. There was an absolutely tremendous amount of information. The final test was proctored.

When I was done I was "certified", and I inspected EIFS. But it took years of practice, more classes, live class, studies, and experience to be able to do the inspection for Granny. It also took the opportunity to have access to enough EIFS to experiment with.

New
The reason I deleted the original post was that I suddenly felt that this thread was going in circles. I would appreciate if it could be factual and not personal. I would also appreciate if Ben would respond to the technical challenges that are presented, and stop simply pasting pages from a Power Point presentation. They are incomplete thoughts, I question some of the content, and as they are presented, they are gibberish.
Also, to be fair, earlier in this thread I requested that a link to my website be removed. It was removed some time ago. If you read up, I posted "thank you," in respect to its removal.
Thank you to those that have contacted me. You friendship and comradery is valued and respected.

[Steven Turetsky]

This past Saturday I did an EIFS inspection. With a helper I worked on the home for 10 hours. My findings will have an effect on about $150,000.00 - $200,000.00 dollars worth of decisions by the homeowner.

Does anybody think they are going to do this in the course of a normal home inspection? The best advice a knowlegable Home Inspector can give his client is to have a full EIFS inspection by someone that specializes in EIFS. Just like when you inspect a boiler, you turn it on, you turn it off... but the bottom line is; if you suspect something , you recommend a "boiler specialist?"

Yes, a HI should know how to identify EIFS. But don't fool yourself or you clients. It doesn't matter what you think you see, you really don't know anything for sure unless you do a full inspection. You are not an EIFS Inspector unless you are willing to prescribe repairs/retrofits. You have to also be willing to make the decision of ripping it off, and living with what is found... or not found.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Thank you Steven Turetsky!

[John Carroll]

One last comment about the EIFS issue, then I'm done. The thing everyone needs to remember is this.
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Commercial Architects and specifiers have continued to use this system right on through the North/ South Carolina lawsuit storm. Why do you think that is? Hundreds of thousands of buildings across the country using the same barrier system that was under attack in those lawsuits.
Maybe, just maybe, the incentive to bring class action lawsuits is directly proportional to the size of the class. After all, there would be far less possibility of getting a class action involving a hundred or so buildings in one state against a hundred different builders versus 500 homeowners against one builder in a single city.
Why has no one sued the Architects who designed the buildings, specified the systems, and approved the submittals if the system was inherently defective?
ANSWER: BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY THERE!
An awful lot of lies and distortions, misdirection and obfuscation can occur when there is a lot of money involved. (See BP spill):cool:

[Steven Turetsky]

Hi John,

How's it going?

In a perfect world the architect would be at blame... to a point. Yes, he should include specifications in the plans. But it is not necessarily his responsibility to verify that the installer is following specs... unless he is getting paid for that service, in which case, he probably isn't an EIFS specialist, so an EIFS specialist would be money better spent.

In the real world, the way an architect specifies EIFS is by simply including the manufacturer's specifications. (Just hands over a booklet) Once again, an EIFS specialist is better qualified for verification. In reality and unfortunately, many if not most build plans are conceptual only, and don't include in-depth details. They are simply adequate to pull permits, and also in actuality, most builds do not have the budget for inspections. Most homeowners are under the impression that since the AHJ does building inspections; it has to be a good job. (Excuse me while I puke) We all know that is simply not true. Most homeowners fall for the “Certified Installer” spiel. Certified by the supply house that sells him the material. Hahahahaha They think because the installer is “Certified” there are surely going to get a good job. They get a good hosing.

In most cases they get the cheapest job, for the cheapest price, with as many corners cut as the installer can get away with. You are an installer. What percentage of your installations are under the architect's eye? Probably not many, I would also venture to guess that you do quite a few jobs that involve no architect at all.

So John, do you do all of you installations according to manufacturer's specs? Do you have any specs that exceed the manufacturer's specs? Well, I'm sure that you do, so let me ask you this; how many other installers do you think follow the same high standards? Most? Some? Few? None?

I’m sure you’ve seen EIFS failures and repaired EIFS jobs. Who do you think installed it? The architect, or perhaps it is the homeowner's fault for not asking the right questions. My guess is that some EIFS installer installed every poor EIFS installation. Or maybe it was one bad installer that did all the bad work we hear about, and all the other installers do great work.

From all of the installations you have seen, how many of them were due directly to a failure with the ... "stuff that comes in the bucket, or defective EPS, or defective mesh"... probably few. So is EIFS crap? I don’t think so. But if you ask me if EIFS installations are crap, I would have to say the major majority are. So, in extension, most EIFS homes are crap.

You know, I probably spend more time with clients that are trying to save/correct (if possible) the home that they already own, than I do with clients that are considering purchasing an EIFS home.

You also stated that besides being an installer (PM), you are an estimator. Does that mean that it is your job to keep the men working, to get the work? The most work? Do you get the jobs by charging double what the other installers charge? I mean, all the extra work and materials cost money. Do you throw in for free and lose money on the job? Probably not if you want to keep your job. Or do you try to submit proposals that will win the job?

I used to think that all of the bad installations were because the installer did not know how to do it right. What I learned it that many installers know the manufacturer's specs, but it order to get the job they don’t charge for it and they don’t do it because they didn’t charge for it. It sounds like a vicious circle… it is.

I'm also sure that most installers don't even advise the client about the upgrades... or flashing. Do you think they say... do you say; "yeah lady, I'll do the job for $10,000.00, but you will need another $3,000.00 worth of work if you want a good job, and you're also going to need an additional $1,500.00 worth of flashing." do you also say;" and if you don't do the extras, I won't do the job."

When you crew shows up to do the installation, do you send everyone home and shut the job down because the flashing isn't right? Who is responsible for your flashing?

Well, I'm sure... most (or course not you), simply book the jobs, do the work, take the money and run. Since most failures don't shop up for quite some time, most get away with it.

One other thing, in order to get the job and calm down the frightened client who heard about all the bad EIFS, most installers (not you), tell the client about the "Ten Year Warranty," from the manufacturer. Do you, I mean they, tell the client that when the manufacturer comes to inspect the job, and it is not installed as per specs; that the warranty is null and void?

Or in addition to the manufacturer's warranty, do you (or your company) also issue a guarantee that the job has been installed as per specs?

The good news is that some AHJs are smartening up. There are some states that require a contract with a EIFS Inspector before the initial building permit is issued.

[John Carroll]

Hi John,

How's it going?

In a perfect world the architect would be at blame... to a point. Yes, he should include specifications in the plans. But it is not necessarily his responsibility to verify that the installer is following specs... unless he is getting paid for that service, in which case, he probably isn't an EIFS specialist, so an EIFS specialist would be money better spent.

In the real world, the way an architect specifies EIFS is by simply including the manufacturer's specifications. (Just hands over a booklet) Once again, an EIFS specialist is better qualified for verification. In reality and unfortunately, many if not most build plans are conceptual only, and don't include in-depth details. They are simply adequate to pull permits, and also in actuality, most builds do not have the budget for inspections. Most homeowners are under the impression that since the AHJ does building inspections; it has to be a good job. (Excuse me while I puke) We all know that is simply not true. Most homeowners fall for the “Certified Installer” spiel. Certified by the supply house that sells him the material. Hahahahaha They think because the installer is “Certified” there are surely going to get a good job. They get a good hosing.

In most cases they get the cheapest job, for the cheapest price, with as many corners cut as the installer can get away with. You are an installer. What percentage of your installations are under the architect's eye? Probably not many, I would also venture to guess that you do quite a few jobs that involve no architect at all.

So John, do you do all of you installations according to manufacturer's specs? Do you have any specs that exceed the manufacturer's specs? Well, I'm sure that you do, so let me ask you this; how many other installers do you think follow the same high standards? Most? Some? Few? None?

I’m sure you’ve seen EIFS failures and repaired EIFS jobs. Who do you think installed it? The architect, or perhaps it is the homeowner's fault for not asking the right questions. My guess is that some EIFS installer installed every poor EIFS installation. Or maybe it was one bad installer that did all the bad work we hear about, and all the other installers do great work.

From all of the installations you have seen, how many of them were due directly to a failure with the ... "stuff that comes in the bucket, or defective EPS, or defective mesh"... probably few. So is EIFS crap? I don’t think so. But if you ask me if EIFS installations are crap, I would have to say the major majority are. So, in extension, most EIFS homes are crap.

You know, I probably spend more time with clients that are trying to save/correct (if possible) the home that they already own, than I do with clients that are considering purchasing an EIFS home.

You also stated that besides being an installer (PM), you are an estimator. Does that mean that it is your job to keep the men working, to get the work? The most work? Do you get the jobs by charging double what the other installers charge? I mean, all the extra work and materials cost money. Do you throw in for free and lose money on the job? Probably not if you want to keep your job. Or do you try to submit proposals that will win the job?

I used to think that all of the bad installations were because the installer did not know how to do it right. What I learned it that many installers know the manufacturer's specs, but it order to get the job they don’t charge for it and they don’t do it because they didn’t charge for it. It sounds like a vicious circle… it is.

I'm also sure that most installers don't even advise the client about the upgrades... or flashing. Do you think they say... do you say; "yeah lady, I'll do the job for $10,000.00, but you will need another $3,000.00 worth of work if you want a good job, and you're also going to need an additional $1,500.00 worth of flashing." do you also say;" and if you don't do the extras, I won't do the job."

When you crew shows up to do the installation, do you send everyone home and shut the job down because the flashing isn't right? Who is responsible for your flashing?

Well, I'm sure... most (or course not you), simply book the jobs, do the work, take the money and run. Since most failures don't shop up for quite some time, most get away with it.

One other thing, in order to get the job and calm down the frightened client who heard about all the bad EIFS, most installers (not you), tell the client about the "Ten Year Warranty," from the manufacturer. Do you, I mean they, tell the client that when the manufacturer comes to inspect the job, and it is not installed as per specs; that the warranty is null and void?

Or in addition to the manufacturer's warranty, do you (or your company) also issue a guarantee that the job has been installed as per specs?

The good news is that some AHJs are smartening up. There are some states that require a contract with a EIFS Inspector before the initial building permit is issued.



Sorry, Steven, not following what this diatribe has to do with my comment above...feel free to make the connection for me, use as many words as you like. I'll check back in a week or so...:cool: