Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

[Scott Patterson]

I get so aggravated when I get a call from a buyer saying that their inspector does not inspect Stucco or EIFS. So now the buyer has to hire me for more than what they paid for their full home inspection! We all need to know how to look at EIFS and Stucco, it is our job!

This morning I had this type of inspection, but the home had been inspected by 2 home inspectors! The first inspector was hired by the owner for a Pre-Listing inspection. This was some type of inspection that was marketed by INACHI, he even had a sign for it ( it was in the garage). This inspector said that the home was a Hybrid PB EIFS home. Anyway it was done 6 months ago and that inspector is no longer in business.

On to the second inspection! This was done last week.. The inspector told the buyer that the home was an EIFS home and that he did not inspect EIFS so they need to have an inspector who specializes in EIFS to take a look at it.

So, this is how I come into the picture.

Enter Stage Right! I drove up the drive and parked. Took off my sunglasses and the first thing I see are control joints all over the structure. I walk up to the wall and wrap my knuckles on it. It sounds like a solid piece of concrete! I remove an intercom speaker cover and low and behold I find concrete and metal lath! It is a Stucco home! It took me 10 minutes to do all of this. Next I started to look at the problems. No header flashing over the wood windows, that were rotting & No diverter flashing at roof to wall joinings. I found moisture in the interior walls under the windows with a Tramex ME. Even found soft drywall and rotting baseboards.

None of this was found or reported by the two home inspectors! It is not rocket science by any means, nor did it take me any time to find the damage on the drywall or baseboards. Granted the rotting wood windows had been painted and were a little harder to see. ;)

I say all of this in hopes that with the vast number of new folks entering our profession that you need to learn about all exterior cladding's that can be found on a home. Take a special class and learn, it will save you down the road!

Off Soap Box......

Here are some pics
The first is a closeup of the stucco plaster and you can see the wire lath that was cut for the speaker hold.
The second is a closeup of the same location
The third is the shack.

[Eric Barker]

We have the same problem here - inspectors shy away from stucco. Of those that do try to tackle stucco many of them are not familiar enough with it.

[Nick Ostrowski]

I think it's laziness, an idea that they should never exceed SOPs, and a resistance to expanding their knowledge base. Not everybody takes their profession seriously.

[Ken Rowe]

Don't complain Scott. If one of the first two knew what they were doing you wouldn't have gotten the job. :)

[Steven Turetsky]

I agree that a Home Inspector should be able to tell the difference between EIFS, Stucco, Stone veneer, Vinyl siding, Brick, and any other cladding. There are certain faults that are very common that should also be recongnizable. An inspector that does not specialize in this type of work and does not recommend a full inspection, or makes a client think that he did a full inspection, can be dangerous.

EIFS, Stucco, and Stone veneer require an inspection that goes beyond the normal home inspection... especially when they are installed on a wooden structure. Although a superficial inspection of these claddings could be done during the course of a normal home inspection, I can't see how a complete inspection could be done at the same time. A home inspection on an average house takes me about 3-4 hours. An EIFS inspection on the same home takes about the same time.

Also, when you are doing this type of inspection (a real inspection) YOU ARE THE EXPERT! Or should be, anyway. There is no more recommending that another expert be called in to verify what appears to be, or to prescribe a fix. You also have to be prepared to face off with builders and/or installers. When you find a problem, which you almost always do, you must be prepared to prescribe a fix. In most cases a fix does not mean to simply report "get it fixed". A REAL EIFS/Stucco inspector will prescribe a retrofit that will prevent the problem from reoccuring. You can't simply quote manufacturer's specifications and walk away thinking you did your job.

[Matt Fellman]

It might be a regional thing to some extent. In my area I see maybe 2 true concrete stucco houses a year and about the same number of EIFS houses a year. There used to be a lot more EIFS but we had an extremely high failure rate (another regional thing I imagine). So much so that it's actually not allowed to be installed on residential structures anymore.

So, with all that being said, I don't feel I'm an expert at all. I don't see enough of it to become familiar and I just can't see investing the time to become an expert in something that is so rare in my area.

Now, of course I can tell the difference between the true stuff and the synthetic in about 3 seconds so IMO that's inexcusable for an inspector to not know. And, I still inspect the exterior and look for signs of damage and report on them. I just put a sizeable note in the report that concealed damage is common.

The thing I'm struggling with lately is all the boasting by listing agents and sellers that their EIFS is the "new" type and "not the bad type" - This has been the case on the last few EIFS I've seen and I just don't buy it. I've found big cracks with water trails around windows and doors and other clear signs of problems.

Just curious.... how much stucco/EIFS do you guys in other parts of the country encounter? Maybe as a % of houses you see?

[John Carroll]

The problem is not inspectors who do not know stucco/EIFS. it is clients who don't ask the right questions before hiring one. If the client wanted an inspection report to cover the exterior cladding, then ASK the potential HI if he is qualified to render that opinion before he is hired.
The incompetant HI's would fade away if the clients would educate themselves a little.:cool:

[Elliot Franson]

Mr. Carroll: Maybe some of the fault lies with the inspectors themselves. Upon receiving a call from a prospective client, it behooves the inspector to ask many questions. Some of those might be, for example, "do you know what type of exterior cladding is on the house?", et al. While many clients may not know what type of cladding is on the house, an inspector could at that time state that he/she is not competent to inspect stucco claddings, if that is his or her belief.

Unless Mr. Patterson is performing these rudimentary inspections for free, I have to wonder why he is complaining about the situation.

[Steven Turetsky]

The problem is not inspectors who do not know stucco/EIFS. it is clients who don't ask the right questions before hiring one. If the client wanted an inspection report to cover the exterior cladding, then ASK the potential HI if he is qualified to render that opinion before he is hired.
The incompetant HI's would fade away if the clients would educate themselves a little.:cool:

John,

I disagree.

Is inspecting the exterior cladding an add on option in your contract?

What happened to the "GENERALIST" theory? A HI should be enough of an "EXPERT GENERALIST" to identify anything included in his contract/license/State SOP, and to recommend a "SPECIALIST" when they see something that goes beyond their SOP.

The client should not have to test the inspector. They hire us because they don't know how to inspect a house. HI's should be able to do what they advertise.

[Scott Patterson]

Mr. Carroll: Maybe some of the fault lies with the inspectors themselves. Upon receiving a call from a prospective client, it behooves the inspector to ask many questions. Some of those might be, for example, "do you know what type of exterior cladding is on the house?", et al. While many clients may not know what type of cladding is on the house, an inspector could at that time state that he/she is not competent to inspect stucco cladding's, if that is his or her belief.

Unless Mr. Patterson is performing these rudimentary inspections for free, I have to wonder why he is complaining about the situation.

I guess I'm fussing about it because it kind of paints a bad picture of the inspection profession. I'm getting paid and paid fairly well for what I'm doing. I'm very involved in our profession, and I just see it as another flaw with the training and our professions SOP's. If you are going to inspect a home then inspect the home, especially the most important part of it.

I just see too many inspectors taking the easy way out and disclaiming that they do not inspect X and you need to hire an expert. The don't even attempt to learn or expand their knowledge base on what is a fairly common product. I do not mind being the expert, I worked hard to earn my knowledge and reputation, but my expertise is not always needed on so many of the homes I look at.

As for the "New" EIFS..... It is still crap if it is installed wrong. Two of the major problems of the first generation EIFS was that it was a very technical product to install and it did not have a WRB (house wrap, felt, etc.).

With the Second generation EIFS, it is still a very technical product to install but it does have a WRB so that is a plus. You still need all of the detailed flashing and joints at windows and penetrations. Nothing has really changed in that department, and guess what is still left out on so many of the installs!

[Eric Barker]

Scott, you hit right on a nerve.

I was at a training seminar over the weekend that concentrated very heavily on moisture and its effects on buildings. It basically ignored "code" requirements and industry standards and instead got into the science of moisture. A couple of people there made comments that the presentation was too advanced and was not what they really wanted to hear about.

But for those of us who have been around the block a time or two this was an absolutely excellent program. As the speaker said, the industry has been commercialized and it too often follows or adheres to inferior information. A good inspector needs to get around this and look into the science aspect of construction - obviously this is way outside of any puny SoP.

[Elliot Franson]

But for those of us who have been around the block a time or two this was an absolutely excellent program. As the speaker said, the industry has been commercialized and it too often follows or adheres to inferior information. A good inspector needs to get around this and look into the science aspect of construction - obviously this is way outside of any puny SoP.

Mr. Barker: Eloquently stated.

[Jon Errickson]

Are there some good online resources where an inspector with not as much experience with Stucco/EIFS as you can go to learn more? (Besides just downloading a free PDF that talks about the 12 different kinds of stucco)

Thanks!

[Elliot Franson]

Stucco (Portland Cement Plaster) | Portland Cement Association (PCA) (http://www.cement.org/stucco/)

Stucco Manufacturers Association - Fit Stucco into your Plans (http://www.stuccomfgassoc.com/)

National One Coat Stucco Association - Stucco Contractors, Manufacturers, Associates (http://www.nocsa.org/)

http://www.tlpca.org/home0.aspx

That should get you started.

[Ted Menelly]

Mr. Carroll: Maybe some of the fault lies with the inspectors themselves. Upon receiving a call from a prospective client, it behooves the inspector to ask many questions. Some of those might be, for example, "do you know what type of exterior cladding is on the house?", et al. While many clients may not know what type of cladding is on the house, an inspector could at that time state that he/she is not competent to inspect stucco claddings, if that is his or her belief.

Unless Mr. Patterson is performing these rudimentary inspections for free, I have to wonder why he is complaining about the situation.

Amen.....brother Elliot

[Philip]

EIFS. I am beginning to think they are like Lexan. The third generation of this material was not supposed to turn yellow, scratch, or become brittle.
I gave up listening to them after the fifth new and improved product. The EIFS today are some kind of variation of Drivet Board. When inspecting these homes I look for little black spots near transitions, especially window and door openings. I inform on my report the occurrence or absence of these clues as to the condition of the siding. I also point out that sealant warranties never match the warranties of the material they are sealing.

[Jerry Peck]

Unless Mr. Patterson is performing these rudimentary inspections for free, I have to wonder why he is complaining about the situation.


Amen.....brother Elliot

Seems you guys missed what Scott said:

(red, bold and underlining is my highlighting)

I guess I'm fussing about it because it kind of paints a bad picture of the inspection profession. I'm getting paid and paid fairly well for what I'm doing.

[bruce m graham III]

I woild be happy if the contractors would put it in right to start with

[Jack Feldmann]

I'm one of those guys that does not do EIFS inspections.

I do inspect the home, and identify the material. I do look for installation defects, and adverse conditions.

What I don't do is probe the EIFS and do the typical "EIFS inspection". To me it's a specialized inspection, that has little to do with a normal home inspection.

I thought about getting into EIFS inspections about 10 years ago. A friend of mine did, and I helped him on several. He did make good money doing them. The main reason he quit doing them was the scheduling thing. Since we get about 55 inches a year in Knoxville, it rains a lot. He might have a job set for Wednesday, and it rains heavy all day Tuesday. So he would have to re-schedule the job. In the process, he also lost a day's work. He quit doing EIFS inspections after a couple years.

[John Carroll]

John,

I disagree.

Is inspecting the exterior cladding an add on option in your contract? .
Steven,
Apparently, you have gotten the impression that I am a HI. Let me clear that up for you. I am a Plaster/stucco/EIFS tradesman, Estimator/PM. You won't see me talking about any other trade on this board because of that. I come here for laughs, learning about how others present or represent my trade, and to disabuse those so called experts who presume to spout claptrap about which they know only enough to be dangerous. I can be helpful, sarcastic, rude, funny, or informative. I have also been known to be misinformed, and am more that receptive to correction, when necessary.
Unfortunately, most of the HI's on this board let their ego get in the way of considering that they may be wrong. When I see someone post, for instance, that all EIFS is crap, (AD, Scott), what I hear under that comment, plain and simple, is ignorance.
Try not to let it bother you, they will eventually fade away...:cool:

[Steven Turetsky]

Steven,
Apparently, you have gotten the impression that I am a HI. Let me clear that up for you. I am a Plaster/stucco/EIFS tradesman, Estimator/PM. You won't see me talking about any other trade on this board because of that. I come here for laughs, learning about how others present or represent my trade, and to disabuse those so called experts who presume to spout claptrap about which they know only enough to be dangerous. I can be helpful, sarcastic, rude, funny, or informative. I have also been known to be misinformed, and am more that receptive to correction, when necessary.
Unfortunately, most of the HI's on this board let their ego get in the way of considering that they may be wrong. When I see someone post, for instance, that all EIFS is crap, (AD, Scott), what I hear under that comment, plain and simple, is ignorance.
Try not to let it bother you, they will eventually fade away...:cool:


Hi John,

You're up late, but then again, so am I. It is the only way I can keep up with my reports.

Yes, perhaps I did think you were a HI, only because you seemed to defended HIs by stating that the client was to blame for not asking the right questions.

Considering that a client hires a HI because they realize that they do not have the expertise to inspect a house, why do you think they should have the expertise to know what questions to ask? By the way, what questions should they ask? Also, since the HI wants to "book" the job, what answers do you think the HI would give?

Do you realize it's easier to select a surgeon (doctor) than it is to select a HI?

Unfortunately, in most cases, a client does not know if the HI did a good job until it is too late.

As far as AD or Scott, AD is old school. I don't always agree with him, but let me tell you, he has a great deal of knowlege. I trust his ability in a heartbeat.

Scott is an absolute professional. He knows more than most. Actually, if I needed help with something, Scott is on my "shortlist" of who to go to.

While I'm on the subject of my "shortlist," Ron Huffman is very close to the top of the list.

As far as EIFS being "crap," I do not agree. I think that EIFS is a fantastic product. But I think that in most instances, it is installed like crap. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER inspected an EIFS home, and walked away without finding errors. Usually, stupid or lazy errors.

To be honest, in many cases it is not that the "EIFS" was APPLIED bad, it is usually because the installers, for some reason refuse to take responsibility for the preparation of the job. Usually flashing problems. Since they only care about the EIFS, they don't stop working, they just keep going... it's not their problem. But according to construction guildlines, once you accept it, you own it. So I hold them responsible. I think any EIFS installer should be a flashing installer (an EXPERT flashing installer). I also think that if they don't want to install flashing, they should work with someone who does, and they should at least inform the client that without the proper flashing, the job is DOOMED. They never do. They simply take the money and run.

I agree that limited knowlege is dangerous... unless you are willing to be honest about your limitations and call in a specialist.

John, how do you handle flashing, and overall site preparation?

[Elliot Franson]

I am a Plaster/stucco/EIFS tradesman, Estimator/PM.

That is not as impressive a CV as it might be.


I can be helpful, sarcastic, rude, funny, or informative. I have also been known to be misinformed

A sort or Jack of all trades, huh?



, and am more that receptive to correction, when necessary.


OK, then get ready for that correction.

Barrier (face sealed) EIFS applied to wood frame structures is "crap" to use your words. It is an inherently defective system as per the NAHB, Building Science Corp., et al., all homeowners insurance carriers and yours truly. So then, if by "crap" you mean "inherently defective", we will have to agree to disagree.

As the expert you may envision yourself to be, surely you concur. If not, please explain to us how it is that you are correct and all of the other players mentioned, though they are recognized authorities, are somehow wrong.

[John Carroll]

Barrier EIFS is not an inherently defective product. It is designed to keep water out. Properly designed, detailed, installed, and maintained it does just that. You can't make water go thru EIFS unless you blow it at 70 mph for hours on end. Under those conditions, cement block will also let water thru.
It will, however get behind the system through failed sealant joints, or faulty window designs. That's when the problems start, not in the unbroken field of the system itself.

It is not, never was, and never will be a system that can deal with faulty sealants, disregarded maintenance, or stupid design. No product can stand up to that abuse and perform as advertised. Guess what, genius, there is rot underneath brick, wood siding and most other claddings over wood framed buildings.

When will the "experts" admit that window, roof and door design and maintenance are as important as the system itself.

I won't hold my breath...:cool:

[Joseph Peake]

I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER inspected an EIFS home, and walked away without finding errors. Usually, stupid or lazy errors.

This is alarming and it is consistent with my limited experience with EIFS and Stone Veneer; albeit EIFS is a rare bird on the homes I've inspected.

Another, maybe regional issue, is that there seems to be an aversion to weep holes in face brick. Inspected many brick homes; no weeps, but the 40yr old brick looks great.
What gives?

I've got an ugly situation going on right now where the stone veneer manufacturer who, in response to my request for an evaluation of the installation of his product, simply ignored some of his own published installation instructions. He actually told the Client's agent that "90% of the installations don't use weep screed". Ok, Mr. manufacturer, are we to follow your instructions or not? Do we need to stop the stone above the roof covering and windows or do we not? How bout the grout that you specifiy to be installed between the stacked stone as it's being installed? Why can I see lath and it doesn't bother you? How come having no sealants is ok? (FYI - I submitted a post about this home a few weeks ago).

Any comments would be appreciated.

Hi Scott - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - i'm wearing the "billy mays shirt" too, but I couldn't replicate the wall color :)

[Rich Goeken]

I agree that a Home Inspector should be able to tell the difference between EIFS, Stucco, Stone veneer, Vinyl siding, Brick, and any other cladding. There are certain faults that are very common that should also be recongnizable. An inspector that does not specialize in this type of work and does not recommend a full inspection, or makes a client think that he did a full inspection, can be dangerous.

EIFS, Stucco, and Stone veneer require an inspection that goes beyond the normal home inspection... especially when they are installed on a wooden structure.

Also, when you are doing this type of inspection (a real inspection) .....



So I understand it, you may have three prices: GOOD @ X $$$, BETTER @ $$$, or BEST ("a real inspection") @ $$$. Like buying tires?

How would you tell the client how much should be expected to pay for the inspection service? As many homes have stucco, where do you draw the line on inspections? I would expect to purchase the services of a person that is able to inspect the complete home should it take 2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours, etc. Ethically, should the inspector decline prior to the inspection if he/she feels that they are not familiar with a specific type of construction? What is a "real inspection"?

.

[Mark Howe]

So I understand it, you may have three prices: GOOD @ X $$$, BETTER @ $$$, or BEST ("a real inspection") @ $$$. Like buying tires?

How would you tell the client how much should be expected to pay for the inspection service? As many homes have stucco, where do you draw the line on inspections? I would expect to purchase the services of a person that is able to inspect the complete home should it take 2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours, etc. Ethically, should the inspector decline prior to the inspection if he/she feels that they are not familiar with a specific type of construction? What is a "real inspection"?

.

I don't think you understand at all. Try reading Stevens response again.

I learned in this thread that two of the very best in the business, Steven and Scott, don't know what they are talking about, but an eifs installer (who did not fully respond to the 'inherently defective' assertion), and an inspector with reading comprehension problems, do?

Oy vey.

[Scott Patterson]

Barrier EIFS is not an inherently defective product. It is designed to keep water out. Properly designed, detailed, installed, and maintained it does just that. You can't make water go thru EIFS unless you blow it at 70 mph for hours on end. Under those conditions, cement block will also let water thru.
It will, however get behind the system through failed sealant joints, or faulty window designs. That's when the problems start, not in the unbroken field of the system itself.

It is not, never was, and never will be a system that can deal with faulty sealants, disregarded maintenance, or stupid design. No product can stand up to that abuse and perform as advertised. Guess what, genius, there is rot underneath brick, wood siding and most other claddings over wood framed buildings.

When will the "experts" admit that window, roof and door design and maintenance are as important as the system itself.

I won't hold my breath...:cool:

Well I'm glad you are not holding your breath, it is not healthy :)

While I do not claim to be an expert like you, I do agree that penetrations in the building envelope are the main culprits when it comes to water seepage into the structure.

I also agree that 99% of the problems I find with EIFS relate to improper installation of the product and the associated flashing. I will also stand by this statement; "Any exterior cladding system that depends on sealants to keep water out of the walls is crap!"..... I do not know of any other exterior cladding that is as dependent on sealants to keep water out as EIFS is.

Like it or not, this is my opine on EIFS and is based on a few thousand inspections of it since 1998. I bet that I have only found a couple dozen homes/buildings that did not have any major problems since I have been inspecting it.

[Scott Patterson]

Hi Scott - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - i'm wearing the "billy mays shirt" too, but I couldn't replicate the wall color :)

The "wall color" is actually a picture in our living room....

[Joseph Peake]

I keep trying to upload the Scott Patterson lookalike pic, but it keeps saying "upload failed". Pic complies with the size requirements. I can see it in my profile, but not on my post to the site!

[Elliot Franson]

I keep trying to upload the Scott Patterson lookalike pic, but it keeps saying "upload failed". Pic complies with the size requirements. I can see it in my profile, but not on my post to the site!

Here it is:

http://www.fiftiesweb.com/tv/captain-kangaroo.jpg

[Elliot Franson]

Barrier EIFS is not an inherently defective product.

Mr. Carroll: From your lips to god's ears, I suppose. No recognized experts in the field agree with you, but hey, why let the facts interfere with your flights of fancy?

I have inspected 100s of houses with barrier EIFS and have yet to find one, yes, not even one, that was functioning as a WRB. So then, that leaves us with the following choices:

(1) The product is inherently defective when installed according to the manufacturers' installation instructions.

and/or

(2) The product is never installed correctly by the tradesmen like yourself in charge of that particular job.

I vote for both inherently defective AND never installed properly. By the way, so do the NAHB, Building Science Corp., insurance companies, owners of homes with the stuff glued to them, and anyone with a lick of experience and common sense. Present company excluded, of course.:D

[Joseph Peake]

Here it is!

Elliot, do your clients typically walk away from an EIFS home after having read your report?

[Elliot Franson]

Elliot, do your clients typically walk away from an EIFS home after having read your report?

Mr. Peake: The majority do, yes. Those who really like the house and the location usually opt to reclad the building with a reasonably durable material such as Portland cement stucco, et al.

[Joseph Peake]

Mr. Peake: The majority do, yes. Those who really like the house and the location usually opt to reclad the building with a reasonably durable material such as Portland cement stucco, et al.


I've been a HI since 2004, but have 25yrs of general experience with EIFS (mostly on commercial bldgs). Rhetorical question: why would a homeowner want to deal with this product family when there are other more reliable options?

I completely agree that nothing good can come from depending on sealant to maintain the envelope - unrealistic expectation in the real world and, therefore, IMHO, a misapplication on a residential structure. My understanding is that a sealant failure on an EIFS system can be catastrophic unless detected and repaired almost immediately. Most homeowners don't even change their air filters in a timely manner, so I don't feel confident in their ability to maintain the sealants.

Now, I'm feeling the same way about adhered stone systems, in particular the stacked stone look .... ugggg!
Very similar situation "must be installed correctly and maintained; great looking system". As they say in the "horse biz", "ya can't ride the looks".
The disconcerting fact is that I have yet to see a stone veneer system installed on a home that appears to be 100% compliant with the manufacturer's instructions.

[Tim Twite]

I am a fairly new inspector and do not claim to be an expert in any way, still strugleing to find business. I watch this site often and use it as a learning tool. Some times I learn, some times I laugh, but this is the first time I have posted so go easy on me.

I am in Minnesota, not sure how much EIFS we have around here maybe Jon or Ken can supply that info. I noticed the post and replys are from what I would call the steamy states TN - NY - IL - OR - FL - not real sure about TX and the person defending EIFS is from AZ. I lived in Tucson for several years and can tell you the differance is huge. Very little rain fall mostly during monsoon season when it rains like crazy for a 15 min. and the sun is back out. The humidity is very low so what moisture you do get goes away fast.

My point is could it be that in Johns area with little rain and low humidity the product works well due to the fact it gets wet on a limited basis and takes no time to dry with the low humidity. And in the areas that are having problems it is not a good fit due to the amount of rain we get and the high humidity holding the mositure in the air?

[Elliot Franson]

why would a homeowner want to deal with this product family when there are other more reliable options?

Mr. Peake: Usually because they have been misinformed by builders and stucco contractors who are still about 20 years behind the times regarding the EIFS issue. Or, perhaps because they have a vested interest in being ignorant of the facts. Take your pick.


My understanding is that a sealant failure on an EIFS system can be catastrophic unless detected and repaired almost immediately.

Mr. Peake: Yes, and what other exterior cladding are you aware of where the manufacturer REQUIRES annual professional inspection and maintenance in order to validate the product warranty?


As they say in the "horse biz", "ya can't ride the looks".

Mr. Peake: Many people who cannot afford a house that is properly clad but still like the look of Portland cement stucco and cast stone will be tempted to buy a house with EIFS. This country consists to a great extent of people who are all about appearances - what they drive, where they live, etc. And, if they can get it cheap, such as an EIFS house which is very difficult to sell even in a brisk market, why the hell not? Common sense and practicality be damned.

Just my opinion.

[Scott Patterson]

I am a fairly new inspector and do not claim to be an expert in any way, still strugleing to find business. I watch this site often and use it as a learning tool. Some times I learn, some times I laugh, but this is the first time I have posted so go easy on me.

I am in Minnesota, not sure how much EIFS we have around here maybe Jon or Ken can supply that info. I noticed the post and replys are from what I would call the steamy states TN - NY - IL - OR - FL - not real sure about TX and the person defending EIFS is from AZ. I lived in Tucson for several years and can tell you the differance is huge. Very little rain fall mostly during monsoon season when it rains like crazy for a 15 min. and the sun is back out. The humidity is very low so what moisture you do get goes away fast.

My point is could it be that in Johns area with little rain and low humidity the product works well due to the fact it gets wet on a limited basis and takes no time to dry with the low humidity. And in the areas that are having problems it is not a good fit due to the amount of rain we get and the high humidity holding the mositure in the air?

Hey Tim,

Yes, the location does have a great deal to do with it. In the dry Southwest and West it can take a great deal of time for problems to show. In my part of the South on the average we get around 45" to 55" of rain a year, so we are going to have more problems than areas that get 10" of rain a year.

[Joao Vieira]

I have to disagree and agree :D with some of the comments above.

If the EIFS cladding is done properly it will last a long time.. More than many people think..
Here is some info that I stole from google since I am feeling lazy in a Friday:
"""""
http://www.lifetime-remodeling.com/HTML%20Pages/EIFS/Fireworks/Fails.png http://www.lifetime-remodeling.com/HTML%20Pages/EIFS/images/EIFS_Mold_sm.jpgEIFS fails because moisture gets trapped between the foam backing of the EIFS system and the wood sheathing it is attached to. Water penetration allowed to enter behind the EIFS is unable to evaporate. The moisture attacks the wood sheathing, framing, and studs. This leads to dry rot and toxic mold problems.
If untreated, the dry rot and mold damage can often cost as much as the new siding to replace it. The rotting wood ultimately leads to the destruction of the homes structure.
Common moisture problems appear around the areas where the EIFS meets against the wood trim, roof flashing, windows and doors. EIFS that terminates below grade (ground) is also an easy entrance point for moisture and insects.
Although most EIFS manufacturers have detailed installation instructions, these are often ignored by installers.
Another common issue is the failure to install proper flashing systems. On 9 out of 10 EIFS homes that we deal with the existing flashing is improperly installed or missing altogether allowing large amounts of moisture infiltration causing dry rot and mold damage on the interior framing and wall surfaces.
"""""""""


We all needed to learn at some point. I never left that stage...Today I learned something new.


A home inspector can't and does not know everything about a house. Period. Even the most seasoned inspectors are not experts in all the trades. The only way one can be an expert in All trades is to know every word in the code book and know how to work in all trades with outstanding workmanship. I see sometimes code books and recognize errors at many levels. Sometimes I don't find errata, sometimes I do.


With that said, must also say that I sometimes forget either to look at something or forget which code applies to what.


If you spend a couple hours on google with the words litigation, lawsuit, construction, contractor, bad workmanship, bad design, etc, you will see that there is a lot of room for everyone to improve (including myself) and there is a lot of work out there, some of which unexplored.


My research tells my guts that most of the ongoing current cladding/ veneer construction methodology is wrong because almost everyone is forgetting that wood framing buildings/home need air circulation in order to last a long time. Note: these are only my thoughts, I might be crazy :D



Now I go to have some diner before something happens to my heart rate :o

[Steven Turetsky]

Folks keep talking about EIFS and "Barrier" EIFS. Barrier EIFS is doomed when installed on a wooden substrate. Yes, when it was first introduced in this country, thats how it was done. Once enough lawsuits came into play the manufacturers developed a "Water managed" or "Drainable" system.

No longer was the EPS applied directly to wood. An interior drainage plane was incorporated, and weepable tracks were installed. In a perfect world, you would think that would have solved the problem. Too bad it didn't.

As I have mentioned before, the most frequant installation flaws has to do with flashing. Whether it be kickout flashing or flashing at interfaces, that is where most woodrot failures originate.

Yes, there are other areas that problems may exist. Yes, the system has to be maintained.

Does a water managed system solve all? I'm not so sure. Yes, when installed properly, a water managed system will allow water that has penetrated the system to drain. But, think about this; although water drains down, it evaporates up. If there is no way for the humidity to escape, no air exchange, it can still create havoc.

And... for those folks that keep swearing by sand mix stucco, There are problems with that type of cladding too. Same types of faults as with EIFS. Improper moisture barriers, drainage planes, flashing.

AND

Mr. Goeken,

I only do one type of inspection; the very best. My best testimonial is that the agents do not refer me... unless it is for one of their family members, then they come out of the woodwork.

I cannot remember one inspection that I have ever done, whether it be Building Envelope or traditional Home Inspection that has cost my client a cent. I usually save my clients much exponentially more money in repairs and aggrevation than my fee. They ALL say "thank you."

This past year, one of my clients got a price reduction of $150,000.00 because of what I found... and PROVED! There are many other similar stories.


GROWWWWWWWL

;)

[Rich Goeken]

I only do one type of inspection; the very best. My best testimonial is that the agents do not refer me... unless it is for one of their family members, then they come out of the woodwork.


;)

Steve,
As a client I would expect only the very best from a HI. Keep up doing the "family"... you are from NY, right? :D

[Joao Vieira]

Just one last comment:
It is important to clarify the scope of the inspection. What are the client's expectations from the inspection report?. This can be described as a fine line or a 4 lane highway sometimes :(. Better clarify beforehand to avoid trouble.

[Elliot Franson]

Barrier EIFS is doomed when installed on a wooden substrate.

Mr. Turetsky: Indeed.


No longer was the EPS applied directly to wood. An interior drainage plane was incorporated, and weepable tracks were installed. In a perfect world, you would think that would have solved the problem. Too bad it didn't.


Mr. Turetsky: Yes.



Yes, there are other areas that problems may exist. Yes, the system has to be maintained.


Mr. Tretsky: Agreed.


Does a water managed system solve all? I'm not so sure.

Mr. Turetsky: So far we are on the same page.


And... for those folks that keep swearing by sand mix stucco, There are problems with that type of cladding too. Same types of faults as with EIFS. Improper moisture barriers, drainage planes, flashing.

Mr. Turetsky: Yes, there can be similar problems. No, they are not as prevalent as in EIFS. Examples of three-coat Portland cement buildings older than we are abound with few problems. Not so with EIFS.

[Joao Vieira]

The majority of EIFS problems are due to poor workmanship on the EIFS installation and the broadly overlooked deficient installation of sealants AKA as caulk joints.

As an example I find that EIFS crew foremen (like roofers) rarely have relevant drawings and /or details and don't know the meaning of "end dams". Never mind the setup/ construction of a caulk joint, which by itself does not do the magic of protecting the hard work and expensive materials underneath.
Most of the EIFS failures that I have seen started at the joints or top edges.

Now I need to go finish the wife's chair :)

[Tim Twite]

Mr. Turetsky: Yes, there can be similar problems. No, they are not as prevalent as in EIFS. Examples of three-coat Portland cement buildings older than we are abound with few problems. Not so with EIFS.[/quote]

Mr. Franson: Do you mean the older homes that have little or no insulation, plank boards with a space between them rather that plywood or osb sheets, and no air or vapor barrier?

I would think that may be the differance. The old homes could breath and the water and vapor both have the ability to escape.

[Elliot Franson]

Mr. Twite:

I am a student of Joseph Lstiburek (http://www.joelstiburek.com/) and John Carmody (http://www.csbr.umn.edu/carmody.html) , among many others. You are preaching to the choir.

Ventilation can be achieved rather easily in any building. But, not by most of the "builders" practicing today.

[Tim Twite]

Mr. Franson:

You are right. I have read some of Lstiburek, I think he is dead on in his article Built Wrong from the Start but was not aware of Carmody. You would think being in Minnesota as he is I should be but that is part of why I follow this site to learn and find new resources. Thank you for the link I will do so looking into him and maybe seeing as he is in the same area be able catch a class or seminar with him.

Again thanks and have a great week end.

[Glenn Duxbury]

Hi, ALL &

Bottom Line, though - as has been at least 'hinted-at' above - is if all that bad work was NOT done, it'd be closer to a 'perfect' world out there and:

We wouldn't really be needed...

Keep up the bad work, everyone (even bad HI's lead to good business & I just love it) !

Have never 'not' looked carefully at the exterior - unless that Client didn't want to pay for it, but it is normally always included & a "given"...


CHEERS !

[John Carroll]

Folks keep talking about EIFS and "Barrier" EIFS. Barrier EIFS is doomed when installed on a wooden substrate. Yes, when it was first introduced in this country, thats how it was done. Once enough lawsuits came into play the manufacturers developed a "Water managed" or "Drainable" system.

No longer was the EPS applied directly to wood. An interior drainage plane was incorporated, and weepable tracks were installed. In a perfect world, you would think that would have solved the problem. Too bad it didn't.

As I have mentioned before, the most frequant installation flaws has to do with flashing. Whether it be kickout flashing or flashing at interfaces, that is where most woodrot failures originate.

Yes, there are other areas that problems may exist. Yes, the system has to be maintained.

[QUOTE]
Does a water managed system solve all? I'm not so sure. Yes, when installed properly, a water managed system will allow water that has penetrated the system to drain. But, think about this; although water drains down, it evaporates up. If there is no way for the humidity to escape, no air exchange, it can still create havoc.


Not sure about the problem there, if the water is out, what difference does the evap direction make?

All EIFS is vapor permeable, the point of condensation is the issue, not the presence of water vapor.



I only do one type of inspection; the very best.

That's right, you bad... wanna run a check on that ego, son?

[Elliot Franson]

Mr. Carroll: Your special location and circumstances may have led you to believe that EIFS is a fine product. And, in an arid (both meteorologically and mentally) area such as much of Arizona, a properly installed water managed system may prove to be satisfactory, given of course annual maintenance and no golf courses nearby.

In the real world where most of the rest of us live - if you doubt this check the census statistics - we have something called rain. We also have humidity, which is kind of like rain that just hangs there without falling. And then there is hail, which can be likened to frozen water shot from cannons. EIFS does not prosper under any or all of these conditions, drained or not. We will not even discuss the implications when EIFS is involved in a fire . . .

Additionally, we (at least here in my 7-million strong area) are not blessed with master applicators as you seem to be. So, I fear, is the case with everywhere else but Arizona.

EIFS is an inherently defective product. Always has been, and likely always will be.

[Steven Turetsky]

Hey John, How are you today? I didn't expect you until next week. Couldn't wait. huh?



Not sure about the problem there, if the water is out, what difference does the evap direction make?

All EIFS is vapor permeable, the point of condensation is the issue, not the presence of water vapor..

Not everything I know came from... "online courses" hahahahahaha. Some of what I know comes from past experiences and ongoing experience. As an "old dog," I must tell you I have had quite a few.

So this humidity thing; yes EIFS is permeable. Do you know the permeability of EIFS?... how about as compared to other building systems and materials. Do you know what the normal moisture content in wood is? Or how about at what different levels, different things happen?

You put up new EIFS for a living, I open it up to see what it looks like a few years later. Hey man, I've seen some that don't look so good. You see John, without reading it in a book, my scientific reasoning is that in osmosis, if a barrier (membrane) is less permeable, it will equalize slower. Call me silly, but in my head, I feel that if nothing else, a wooden area that has higher humidity for longer, is not better, or even just as good as one that can equalize faster. Just like in a basement, crawlspace, or attic; air exchange is crucial. I believe that a house is a living thing, any living thing that is healthy breathes. The less it can breath, the healthier it ain't.

I also have a solution for this anomaly that would elevate EIFS to the next level, but unless you sign a confidentially agreement... I ain't tellin'. Do you want to finance me?


That's right, you bad... wanna run a check on that ego, son?

My good man, I am truly a humble man. I have always treated everyone in this forum with the same respect that I want in return. I would love to introduce you to my friend AD. He wrote the book on detante. He hasn't been around lately, I think he's in Afghanastan.

I know some great inspectors, some of which are in this forum. Some know more than I can ever hope to know. But at the same time, although I don't know everything they know... they don't know everything I know.

As far as inspecting goes. I don't have an ego problem. I do have pride and confidance, but the way I see it, that is not a problem. I am very serious inspector, and do nothing except inspect buildings and or work on reports 6, sometimes 7 days a week. I fill my reports with relevant information... not cut and pasted fill. When I do an inspection, it is up close and personal. Most importanty, I don't give 2 shits about upsetting a real estate agent.

Now be a nice man, and tell me you love me.

Peace

[Joao Vieira]

But at the same time, although I don't know everything they know... they don't know everything I know.
Ahahahaha! you hit the nail in the head ;:D
Wisdom and experience is not measured by the bucket;;;

[Lisa Endza]

Are there some good online resources where an inspector with not as much experience with Stucco/EIFS as you can go to learn more?


NACHI.TV - Stucco & EIFS Inspection Training and Certification (http://www.nachi.tv/stucco/stucco-eifs-inspection-training-certification.htm)

The course is presented in hi-definition, online video.

[Ken Rowe]

Just for you Lisa, an excerpt of the forum rules:


Please note that unsolicited advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes and solicitations are STRICTLY forbidden. If you would like to take advantage of an excellent opportunity to promote your services/products in front of 5,300+ inspector members, please contact us (brian@hanntech.com).

[Lisa Endza]

It wasn't "unsolicited." Read the quote in my post slower.

[Bob Elliott]

Just for you Lisa, an excerpt of the forum rules:

Congrats Ken
I had no idea you worked for I.N or are you one of those guys that thinks he runs the forum?
Your job must be to chase people off it .

A link was posted to a useful site and you knock down the lady for trying to be of assistance.

Hope you are not married.:p

[Steven Turetsky]

I believe only Brian can determine if Lisa's post breaks any forum rules, In my opinion because INACHI pays for advertisng in this forum; I see nothing wrong with her posting the link. At the same time, Ken is a worthy contributer in this forum, and I see nothing wrong with him questioning or challanging any post.

I can personally attest to the qualifications of Ron Huffman and Dennis Rose (INACHI's instructors). They are both true experts in their field and anything you can learn from either of them is well worth paying attention to.

For years I've read posts from Home Inspectors asking how to identify EIFS. I believe any person that charges a fee to a client to inspect a home should at the very least be able to identify EIFS or any other cladding, and should at the very least be able to identify certain basic flaws in a cladding system... any cladding system. This can certainly be learned in INACHI's EIFS course.

The problem I have is with the title CERTIFIED. There is a difference between a Home Inspector that is certified in EIFS and a Certified EIFS inspection. If the intent of the certification is not a marketing ploy, I would prefer a Certificate of Completion be issued.

The posting of "Certified EIFS Inspector" on one's website is going to attract clients. Naturally, a client considering purchasing an EIFS home (or one that owns one already), will be led to believe that this inspector will be able to truly and completely evaluate the system.

I am not aware of ANY association that offers a basic course that will enable the attendee to perform an EIFS inspection that will offer their client the information they really need. If anybody doubts this... ask Ron Huffman or Dennis Rose.

Simply stating that an installation is (or is not) to manufacturer's specs is a dis-service to a client. An EIFS inspection should determine the efficiency of the system and the condition of the structure that the EIFS is installed on. You must specify repairs. You must be willing to argue with builders and installers. You must be willing to put your ass on the line with every inspection.

You must ou MUST perform an invasive inspection.

Imagine inspecting a home that has a system with a few flaws. OK, what do you advise... total removal? Or imagine a home with no visible flaws, does it get a clean bill of health?

And when they remove the system and find little or no damage, what do you say then? And if you give the building a good review, and 6 months later you get a phone call about thousands upon thousands of dollars in damage that you didn't discover...

The wisest advice that any Home Inspector can offer a client is to have a certified inspection by a real EIFS expert.

Unfortunately there is no Certified Certified Certification.

[Lisa Endza]

We agree with Steven's position. With few exceptions, an inspector who takes one of our approved inspection courses, passes all the quizzes, and passes its final exam receives a "certificate of completion. (http://www.nachi.org/certificatesofcompletion.htm)"

[Dan Harris]

A link was posted to a useful site and you knock down the lady for trying to be of assistance.
.:p

Bob this topic is 1.5 years old. It looks like lisa /nick are getting desperate by trolling posts for suckers willing to pay them $365.00 for information that can be found for free on this site and the internet.

As far as installations John C did 20 plus years ago, I've seen a few of them and can vouch they are still intact, he must of done his jobs the correct way.:)
If I need any stucco or eifs information I think I will continue getting all of the information I need from him for free.
I bet if I asked him to certify or me, or for a " certificiation of completion " he would also give that out for free. :D

[Lisa Endza]

Dan you are incorrect again.

The post before mine, #51, was made on 8/20/2010. At the time of this post, the oldest post displayed at bottom of the first page of this forum is dated 8/18/2010. That means that this thread was still on the first page of this forum when I replied to it.

[Ken Rowe]

Congrats Ken
I had no idea you worked for I.N or are you one of those guys that thinks he runs the forum?
Your job must be to chase people off it .

A link was posted to a useful site and you knock down the lady for trying to be of assistance.

Hope you are not married.:p

Nope, I don't work for I.N. Otherwise she would have been banned long ago. Let's take a look at this sentence.


A link was posted to a useful site and you knock down the lady for trying to be of assistance. "A link was posted to a useful site" Nope it's only useful if you pay to become a member. That's called advertising. "and you knock down the lady for trying to be of assistance." Nope, this lady decided to reply to a post that is a year and 5 month old and post a link that requires payment to get the information. Not useful at all. I have no problem if Lisa post information that is obtainable free of charge, but that's not what she did.

[Dan Harris]

Dan you are incorrect again.

The post before mine, #51, was made on 8/20/2010. At the time of this post, the oldest post displayed at bottom of the first page of this forum is dated 8/18/2010. That means that this thread was still on the first page of this forum when I replied to it.

I know it's fri. but what the heck are you drinking with the nacho kool aid? :D

The question you answered was posted on 7-20-2010

There is only one page to this topic, the 1st post was 07-2010, and this is Dec. 2011

[Steven Turetsky]

We agree with Steven's position. With few exceptions, an inspector who takes one of our approved inspection courses, passes all the quizzes, and passes its final exam receives a "certificate of completion. (http://www.nachi.org/certificatesofcompletion.htm)"


NACHI.TV - Stucco & EIFS Inspection Training and Certification (http://www.nachi.tv/stucco/stucco-eifs-inspection-training-certification.htm)

The course is presented in hi-definition, online video.

Lisa, if this is so, why does the link you posted above clearly state "... and Certification"?


Dan, Over time, having read some of your posts, I must say that I hold you in the highest regard. I just wish that at some point there could be a conversation (thread) that did not turn into a bashing session.

As far as charging a fee, $365 is a fraction of what I paid for my first EIFS course. I don't blame Nick for charging a fee. Why shouldn't he? Do you ? I do.

I have never seen John C's work and have no reason to question his workmanship. But, 20 years ago, there was no right way to install EIFS on wood, or should I say; the right way was wrong, and errors/defeciencies are built into installations since then to date.

Someday go into an EIFS showroom, check out the latest accessories, precautions, and techniques that are recommended. I'm sure the majority of folks have seen jobs in progress. You decide.

The whole point that I am trying to make is that although a system may APPEAR intact, there is no way of determining what is really happening without going invasive.

[Lisa Endza]

Because it is one of the exceptions I referenced in my post.
We agree with Steven's position. With few exceptions, an inspector who takes one of our approved inspection courses, passes all the quizzes, and passes its final exam receives a "certificate of completion. (http://www.nachi.org/certificatesofcompletion.htm)"The course does not cost $365. Membership does, which comes with free, unlimited access to all our inspection courses (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm) and all our membership benefits. (http://www.nachi.org/benefits.htm)

I suppose that if you want to attribute a portion of the membership dues to one course, the course would probably cost less than 4 cents.

[Bob Elliott]

Lisa, if this is so, why does the link you posted above clearly state "... and Certification"?


Dan, Over time, having read some of your posts, I must say that I hold you in the highest regard. I just wish that at some point there could be a conversation (thread) that did not turn into a bashing session.

As far as charging a fee, $365 is a fraction of what I paid for my first EIFS course. I don't blame Nick for charging a fee. Why shouldn't he? Do you ? I do.

I have never seen John C's work and have no reason to question his workmanship. But, 20 years ago, there was no right way to install EIFS on wood, or should I say; the right way was wrong, and errors/defeciencies are built into installations since then to date.

Someday go into an EIFS showroom, check out the latest accessories, precautions, and techniques that are recommended. I'm sure the majority of folks have seen jobs in progress. You decide.

The whole point that I am trying to make is that although a system may APPEAR intact, there is no way of determining what is really happening without going invasive.

Steve as an expert in this field how would you review the NACHI course?
I will accept your expert opinion over those who simply come to bash with zero knowledge in this topic.

[Dan Harris]

Lisa, if this is so, why does the link you posted above clearly state "... and Certification"?


Dan, Over time, having read some of your posts, I must say that I hold you in the highest regard. I just wish that at some point there could be a conversation (thread) that did not turn into a bashing session.

As far as charging a fee, $365 is a fraction of what I paid for my first EIFS course. I don't blame Nick for charging a fee. Why shouldn't he? Do you ? I do.
e.

Steven , thanks for the complement. I guess I should start working on my message board manners.
I'm just not sure where to start when it comes to someone that almost daily lies, bashes, even slanders home inspectors from different associations [ on this and other open to the public sites] that do not buy into the bogus certifications and marketing gimmicks that are focused to make the consumer believe, just because a person took an on-line quiz and paid $s to another person, that inspector is now certified and more qualfied to do their inspection.


As far a charging a fee, I agree. The problem I have with that is there are 10-15 other paying venders on this site, none of them jump in a topic and try to sell, or often per lisa give us something for free, when in fact it is not for free.
And NONE of the other venders openingly bash any inspector reguardless what association they choose to support and be a member of.

[Bob Elliott]

Steven , thanks for the complement. I guess I should start working on my message board manners.
I'm just not sure where to start when it comes to someone that almost daily lies, bashes, even slanders home inspectors from different associations [ on this and other open to the public sites] that do not buy into the bogus certifications and marketing gimmicks that are focused to make the consumer believe, just because a person took an on-line quiz and paid $s to another person, that inspector is now certified and more qualfied to do their inspection.


As far a charging a fee, I agree. The problem I have with that is there are 10-15 other paying venders on this site, none of them jump in a topic and try to sell, or often per lisa give us something for free, when in fact it is not for free.
And NONE of the other venders openingly bash any inspector reguardless what association they choose to support and be a member of.

You mean like you are doing right now and always.
Do a search and find Mr Harris attacking NACHI eveyr time the name is mentioned.
Imagine if someone attacked his business with as much venom.
Makes one wonder what his motivation is???

[Dan Harris]

You mean like you are doing right now and always.
Do a search and find Mr Harris attacking NACHI eveyr time the name is mentioned.
Imagine if someone attacked his business with as much venom.
Makes one wonder what his motivation is???

Ummm Bob.
My motivation ? Try researching your orgs owners name and see how many times you and your fellow members supported him with, YOUR Dues, to bash, lie about, slander and sue ASHI , NAHI and their members.

Heck if you look hard enough you will find your dues went to trying to hijack is site with INSPECTIONEWS.COM (http://www.inspectionews.com) and if you go back a little futher you will find he told you to stay away from [per him this nazi site]

[Steven Turetsky]

Because it is one of the exceptions I referenced in my post. The course does not cost $365. Membership does, which comes with free, unlimited access to all our inspection courses (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm) and all our membership benefits. (http://www.nachi.org/benefits.htm)

I suppose that if you want to attribute a portion of the membership dues to one course, the course would probably cost less than 4 cents.

Lisa,

I don't understand your response.

Are they

A. Certified EIFS Inspectors
or
B. INACHI members that have received a certificate of completion of a EIFS recongnition course?

Check one.

__ A.
__ B.
__ C. Other (add explanation)

Bob,

My opinion of INACHI's course is based upon my relationship with Ron, Dennis. The characters of both of these men are beyond reproach. Their credentials are impeccable. I am proud to have trained with them and the rest of my EDI family. Along with my experience, EDI brought me to the point that I can rely upon my own studies to evaluate many different systems.

I classify Ron and Dennis as scientists. If you are smart, you will try to absorb every word they say. Watch their movies over and over until you understand everything they said.

I only saw the initial introductary segment. It appeared well made, it was professional, informative and accurate. Because of this and more importantly because of my regard for Ron and Dennis; I have no reason to belive that the entire course would be less worthy.

There were a few statements in the seg that bothered me. Before I quote them, I would have to watch the seg again, not now.

INACHI clearly states in the description and SOP; no intrusive inspections and not to determine damage to the structure. I hope that the inspectors that attend this COURSE clearly do the same in their Inspection Agreements. I think that an automatic RECOMMENDATION for an CERTIFIED EIFS INSPECTION should be SOP.

This course is designed for the HOME INSPECTOR that wishes to familiarize themselves with EIFS, and include a cursary inspection in theie service.

Bob, I agree that sometimes it seems like anything that says either INACHI or ASHI starts a war. I find your accessment of Dan amusing. Perhaps if I get the time I'll do the search.

Dan, save me some time, what will I find? Are you in the Guinness Records for the most anti INACHI posts?

Bob, Dan is not always wrong, and sometimes Kool Aid is served.

If INACHI is the only sponser responding to posts on a forum they sponsor... well shame on the other guys. I think it is brilliant for INACHI to have a communications director that is as active as Lisa, and think she is v-e-r-y good at what she does. She holds her own, while others hold theirs.

[Lisa Endza]

My opinion of INACHI's course is based upon my relationship with Ron, Dennis. The characters of both of these men are beyond reproach. Their credentials are impeccable. I am proud to have trained with them and the rest of my EDI family. Along with my experience, EDI brought me to the point that I can rely upon my own studies to evaluate many different systems.

I classify Ron and Dennis as scientists. If you are smart, you will try to absorb every word they say. Watch their movies over and over until you understand everything they said. Thanks Steven. Ron is on staff with me at InterNACHI.

I have not taken the course but have been told that it provides a certification to perform a visual-only inspection of stucco and EIFS. It does not make the student a stucco/EIFS expert, teach the student to do an invasive inspection, teach destructive inspection techniques, or teach the student to use specialized equipment. It is a certification course to teach the student to perform a visual-only inspection. It is approved by many states and organizations.


Dan is not always wrong. So we're arguing about whether Dan is always wrong or mostly wrong. LOL.

Dan claims that we've sued ASHI and NAHI. I can assure you that he's wrong again and on both counts. We've never sued either.

[Dan Harris]

So we're arguing about whether Dan is always wrong or mostly wrong. LOL.

Dan claims that we've sued ASHI and NAHI. I can assure you that he's wrong again and on both counts. We've never sued either.

Me wrong ? I sure cannot change a title of a topic on your chat board

NACHI sues PHIC, NAHI Chapter and individual NAHI members personally. - InterNACHI Inspection Forum (http://www.nachi.org/forum/f14/international-association-certified-home-inspectors-sues-phic-national-association-home-inspectors-chapter-and-individual-national-association-home-inspectors-members-personally-19342/)

I can post 8-10 more if you need more proof, or all you have to do is google law suit nick :D

OBTW: Has anybody else noticed that 70-80% of nicki certifed from 2-4 years ago that posted on his site, ain't no longer nicki certifed.
If you look at the members here it's like 20-30% that are no longer in business.

I guess that helps explain why Lisa is here begging for $365.00 from members here every chance she can :D :D

[Steven Turetsky]

NACHI.TV - Stucco & EIFS Inspection Training and Certification (http://www.nachi.tv/stucco/stucco-eifs-inspection-training-certification.htm)

The course is presented in hi-definition, online video.

We agree with Steven's position. With few exceptions, an inspector who takes one of our approved inspection courses, passes all the quizzes, and passes its final exam receives a "certificate of completion. (http://www.nachi.org/certificatesofcompletion.htm)"


Lisa,

I don't understand your response.

Are they

A. Certified EIFS Inspectors
or
B. INACHI members that have received a certificate of completion of a EIFS recongnition course?

Check one.

__ A.
__ B.
__ C. Other (add explanation)




Lisa + Dan,

I think you guys should get a room.

Lisa, Before we get too far off track, would you please respond to my previous question.

[Lisa Endza]

C: InterNACHI-certified, visual-only stucco/EIFS inspector. Such an inspector is particularly trained to visually recognize and report stucco/EIFS problems, but not trained to perform destructive, invasive inspections or use specialized equipment. Ron test ran this stucco/inspection course in a hands-on, classroom setting (http://www.nachi.org/stucco2008.htm) at our studios and the inspectors' overall opinion at the end of the course indicated that they were somewhat astonished to discover how much they learned. It is our opinion that many home inspectors have never taken an in-depth course specifically dedicated to stucco/EIFS inspections.

If you'd like unlimited free access to the 16 hour, online video course, email fastreply@nachi.org and mention my name.

[Joseph Hagarty]

Don't complain Scott. If one of the first two knew what they were doing you wouldn't have gotten the job. :)

Exactly
But...
Scott likes to hear himself complain....

[Joseph Hagarty]

It wasn't "unsolicited." Read the quote in my post slower.

Lisa
....give him a break....
lol
:)

[Joseph Hagarty]

Lisa,

I don't understand your response.

Are they

A. Certified EIFS Inspectors
or
B. INACHI members that have received a certificate of completion of a EIFS recongnition course?

Check one.

__ A.
__ B.
__ C. Other (add explanation)



Steven,

Scott Patterson is suggesting that ALL Inspectors should be able to identify defects with stucco installations.

As Lisa has suggested, NACHI provides an Online Training Module FREE to all.

Please post the Link for the Training Module that ASHI provides...

[Joseph Hagarty]

Seems you guys missed what Scott said:



Not missed a word of it.
What Scott describes is resultant from a "Failed" Branding Concept and Licensing Model.

I am not aware of NACHI Participating in that endeavor.
(Do not fault me, Scott started the demise of this thread from the first post)

[Jerry Peck]

What Scott describes is resultant from a "Failed" Branding Concept

Joe,

You know that I am in full agreement with what you stated above - that is why I did no renew with ASHI when they crammed that down our throats, and many others did not renew with ASHI for that same reason.

Most of the others went back to ASHI when ASHI pulled their collective heads out of their butts ... while that debacle was going on, I found that I did not need ASHI - so I never looked back at ASHI.

You ALSO know how I feel about InterNACHI and Nick's actions, which are no better than ASHI's actions were then. The difference is that ASHI finally saw the light and DID pull their heads out of their butt holes ... you also know that I have no expectation that Nick will ever see the light.

In my book - and I will take flack for this from some - NEITHER of those associations are what they COULD BE, so don't go thumping your chest, NEITHER of you have won anything with anyone.

The frosting is gone, but there are some crumbs of the cake on the platter waiting for the last man out to clean them up, turn the lights out when you are done.

[Joseph Hagarty]

Jerry,

No thumping here.
I hear what you are saying.

I did not start this thread.
and I am sure I will not finish it either.....
:)

[Lisa Endza]

You know that I am in full agreement with what you stated above - that is why I did not renew with ASHINobody is renewing their membership in ASHI.


NEITHER of those associations are what they COULD BE, so don't go thumping your chest, NEITHER of you have won anything with anyone.Let's see. InterNACHI is now a worldwide trade association with operations in 65 countries and nine languages, has published dozens of inspection courses and hundreds of inspection articles, launched a online video training show for inspectors, has over 32,000 members, operates an 820,000+ post inspection message board on a 235,000 page monster website that has attracted nearly 11 million unique visitors, has created hundreds of marketing programs for inspectors, developed the International Standards of Practice for Inspecting Commercial Properties, operates a superb website creation system, an online inspection agreement system, a report uploading system, creates custom-designed logos and brochures for its members, offers hundreds of free membership benefits, owns all or part of many of the industry's top vendors, generated 1.8 million of click-thrus to its members' inspection websites, produced a library of 2,000 inspection-related graphics, hosts almost 300 inspection events a year, publishes the best selling inspection-related book with over 500,000 copies sold and 600,000 in print, and has been awarded over 800 government approvals and accreditations for its many inspection courses. Uh, I think InterNACHI is progressing quite well. ;)

[Jerry Peck]

Nobody is renewing their membership in ASHI.

Lisa,

You seem to jump on Scott about lying but do not hesitate to lie yourself. :rolleyes:

I suspect Scott will respond with a correction ... if Scott feels your post is worthy of his response ... which I am not sure it is. :rolleyes:


Let's see. InterNACHI is now a worldwide trade association with operations in 65 countries and nine languages, has published dozens of inspection courses and hundreds of inspection articles, launched a online video training show for inspectors, has over 32,000 members, operates an 820,000+ post inspection message board on a 235,000 page monster website that has attracted nearly 11 million unique visitors, has created hundreds of marketing programs for inspectors, developed the International Standards of Practice for Inspecting Commercial Properties, operates a superb website creation system, an online inspection agreement system, a report uploading system, creates custom-designed logos and brochures for its members, offers hundreds of free membership benefits, owns all or part of many of the industry's top vendors, generated 1.8 million of click-thrus to its members' inspection websites, produced a library of 2,000 inspection-related graphics, hosts almost 300 inspection events a year, publishes the best selling inspection-related book with over 500,000 copies sold and 600,000 in print, and has been awarded over 800 government approvals and accreditations for its many inspection courses. Uh, I think InterNACHI is progressing quite well. ;)

You CLEARLY have NO IDEA what I am referring to when I said "NEITHER of those associations are what they COULD BE".

Joe knows, he and I have met once or twice (I forget which) and have exchanged emails in the past - JOE KNOWS what I am referring to :cool: ... YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE. :rolleyes:

[Steven Turetsky]

Steven,

Scott Patterson is suggesting that ALL Inspectors should be able to identify defects with stucco installations.

As Lisa has suggested, NACHI provides an Online Training Module FREE to all.

Please post the Link for the Training Module that ASHI provides...

Joseph,

Joseph,

In a perfect world all inspectors would know everything about everything, with no need to recommend a specialist. The complete study of EIFS is a very specific field and is well beyond the scope of a Home Inspection as outlined by ANY organization's or licensing body's SOP.

I look forward to viewing the INACHI's course, and look forward to posting my opinion.
As far as posting the link; it is not mine to post. You should contact Lisa for this information.

I, like Scott (stated in the 1st sentence of this thread) have always been taken back when hearing of a Home Inspector cringing at the very mention of EIFS, and have always thought that every Home Inspector should at the very least be able to inspect EIFS with the same intensity as they would apply to any other cladding they encounter. There is no doubt in my mind that the INACHI course will prepare a HI well beyond that level.

I disagree with the idea that a HI should not refer to an EIFS specialist when they feel it is necessary. Should you feel that way when recommending a HVAC specialist, or electrician, structural engineer, solar panel expert, or whatever? Like Scott, from time to time I receive callers saying their Home Inspector recommended an EIFS inspection by a CERTIFIED EIFS INSPECTOR. What is wrong with that? Is that not the correct thing to do? I feel nothing less than respect for the insight of the inspector, and the client feels nothing less than total appreciation.

I feel that a visual only EIFS inspection is appropriate for a HOME INSPECTION. If the inspection notes something that makes them feel that a specialized inspection is necessary, they should recommend it. I do not feel a visual only inspection is appropriate for an EIFS INSPECTION.

Experience tells me that MANY installations that do no have visually apparent flaws are covering damage due to water intrusion. EVERY EIFS installation should be inspected, ESPECIALLY those installed on wood. There can be (and are) problems with installations not on wood. I feel that every EIFS installation merits a full and complete inspection, with EIFS on wood; it is crucial..

The problem is with semantics. Since this course is specifically designed for, and is a statement of qualifications for a Home Inspector doing HOME INSPECTIONS, I see no reason to question the course as intended and within its parameters. The title CERTIFIED EIFS INSPECTOR infers to the innocent that the holder is qualified to provide full/complete/pertinent information when doing an EIFS INSPECTION.

INACHI and other associations clearly post the intent and limitations of their certifications. I recommend all holders of this (or any) certification to follow suit, including within their inspection agreements and reports.

Lisa,

Pardon the delay in responding to your last post. I have been so busy these past few days, and have not seen a break.

[Steven Turetsky]

Lisa,

Your statement is not accurate and does nothing more that feed the sickening bashing cycle. You are a professional, and I would have much more respect if you were to challenge Jerry by asking him what he means. He is a very intelligent man, and I'm sure he will not respond with worthless banter.

If you know what he is referring to, I'm sure you could respond as well.

[Jerry McCarthy]

If one cannot tell the difference between EIFS and regular stucco they ain't a professional home inspector. What is truly discouraging is how a simple statement by one of our highly respected professional home inspectors degenerated into such ridiculous promotional drum beating nonsense from a home inspector association’s paid shill? Her stats are without doubt the most amusing I’ve ever seen posted on any BB. :D

[Rick Cantrell]

Lisa
You are like a JW.
I first admired them for their dedication and effort.
However I've heard it enough to know it's not for me.
But they keep knocking on my door.
Now I just don't even open the door to them at all because they are intrusive and obnoxious.

[Ted Menelly]

I repeat. I have known and do know a very large amount of CEOs Presidents, Vice presidents, communication directors of companies from Rebock and other huge corporations as well as tiny companies.

I have never see a communications director or any other corporate member get involved in scraps with the snickering and irritation of trying to sell their corporation in my entire life.

The actions from any of the large or small corporations from one of their employees would have been heavily chastised or they would have removed such a person for embarrassment reasons long long long ago and hired a more professional corporation member. Especially one with the title

Communications director

I also state that I would join InterNachi once again just for full access to the website and all materials after I "PAID" for the right. Not because I got it for free. If this person and other particular actions ceased from the corporation. This form of advertising where everything is put out there as free after paying for it is the lowest form of draw any company can put forth.

35,000 members worldwide at over 30 a piece. No. I would certainly never put forth that they are getting the information for free.

12,250,000.00 a year and that is not scratching the surface of all the kick backs from all the vendors/

You better dam well be constantly adding web pages and information and classes for your members.

I wonder how much of the 12.5 Lisa is getting? Some how me thinks, not very much.

[Steven Turetsky]

If one cannot tell the difference between EIFS and regular stucco they ain't a professional home inspector. What is truly discouraging is how a simple statement by one of our highly respected professional home inspectors degenerated into such ridiculous promotional drum beating nonsense from a home inspector association’s paid shill? Her stats are without doubt the most amusing I’ve ever seen posted on any BB. :D

Jerry, I agree with much of what you are saying, but disagree with the use of the word "degenerated". This topic is very important to some (me) and I appreciate the discussion. I hope the thread does not degenerate into the same old, boring, useless,and worthless association bashing.

As far as ridiculous drum beating nonsense from a home inspector association paid shill. If you are referring to me, you are wrong. I am not a member of any home inspector association, nor am I anybody's paid shill. Any opinion I have offered is honest. If there is anything that I stated that is rhetoric or factually inaccurate, please bring it to my attention.

[Ted Menelly]

Jerry, I agree with much of what you are saying, but disagree with the use of the word "degenerated". This topic is very important to some (me) and I appreciate the discussion. I hope the thread does not degenerate into the same old, boring, useless,and worthless association bashing.

As far as ridiculous drum beating nonsense from a home inspector association paid shill. If you are referring to me, you are wrong. I am not a member of any home inspector association, nor am I anybody's paid shill. Any opinion I have offered is honest. If there is anything that I stated that is rhetoric or factually inaccurate, please bring it to my attention.

He was referring to someone else Steven

[Jerry McCarthy]

"Her stats are without doubt the most amusing I’ve ever seen posted on any BB." You don't look like a her to me Steven.

Ted, I think you dropped half a million off that gross income figure and probably the reason the owner can't afford a decent haberdashery? Anyone ever notice his arm is always around the shoulders of the person he is posed with in the photos they publish??? (creepy)

[Steven Turetsky]

"Her stats are without doubt the most amusing I’ve ever seen posted on any BB." You don't look like a her to me Steven.

Ted, I think you dropped half a million off that gross income figure and probably the reason the owner can't afford a decent haberdashery? Anyone ever notice his arm is always around the shoulders of the person he is posed with in the photos they publish??? (creepy)

Thank you for the clarification.

[Lisa Endza]

Jerry writes without elaborating
You CLEARLY have NO IDEA what I am referring to when I said "NEITHER of those associations are what they COULD BE". That is correct. I have no idea what you are referring to. I tried to predict what you meant and reply by posting stats about InterNACHI, an appropriate response to someone who says we are not what we could be. But you're right, I have no idea what you really mean. I would expect a statement like yours to be followed by an explanation of what it is you think we "could be" but you didn't tell us what you mean.

Steven wisely advises
You are a professional, and I would have much more respect if you were to challenge Jerry by asking him what he means. He is a very intelligent man, and I'm sure he will not respond with worthless banter. OK. Mr. Peck, what do you mean?

[Jerry Peck]

NEITHER of those associations are what they COULD BE,

Lisa,

In the case of InterNACHI, that refers to a long list of items, including, but not limited to:
- an organization in which its members have control of the association and that the association is member-owned and operated
- an organization in which its members decide where the money goes, the members, through a board of directors, pays for the staff, not one where the owner pays for whatever the owner wants to pay for
- an organization in which its members main purpose of life is NOT feeling a compulsion to bash other associations
- an organization in which its members pass a meaningful proctored exam, not a internet based 'my dog can pass this exam and register as a member' - various pets have passed your exam and registered as members
- an organization in which its members main purpose is to learn more and promote more knowledge, and not to be given "Certified Blah-Blah-Blah' titles which have no real meaning
- an organization in which the purpose of the organization is to promote home inspections and home inspectors, not to promote 'feel-good' meaningless "certifications"
- an organization of which the owner missed a great opportunity to make great strides toward advancing its professionalism and lose it joke stance during another organizations blunder into "branding"
- an organization which is there to promote professionalism of the profession, not one which promotes meaningless "certifications" as though there was some substance to them (even you admit that the "certifications" are "marketing" gimmicks which draw in people seeking a highly qualified home inspector and instead are drawn to the "certifications" given without merit
- an organization which ... there are too many items to list, the owner created a great marketing plan to get rich by, and many home inspectors fell for that plan, and the owner started cranking out "certifications" for anything it feels will help with drawing unsuspecting home buyers into using inspectors with those "certifications"

If you want respectability, Nick (the owner of the organization) would need to give up the ownership and give full ownership of the organization to a duly elected (not appointed) board of directors and that board of directors would have the full power to do what is in the best interests of the organization and its members ... however, that would leave Nick, and you, out in the cold as I doubt any seriously elected board of directors would hire Nick and his crew to run the show ... but then, I could be wrong.

I suspect that there are a lot of good inspectors who belong to your (Nick's) organization and who would make good and capable leaders, inspectors who see the benefit in being professional and acting professional, and either do away with the meaningless "certifications" or make the "certifications" meaningful, and that would start with voiding all existing "certifications". There are also many members whom I believe are there only for the easy-to-get "certifications" and would leave if they had to take the effort to attain a meaningful level of knowledge for a proper "certification".

[Ted Menelly]

"Her stats are without doubt the most amusing I’ve ever seen posted on any BB." You don't look like a her to me Steven.

Ted, I think you dropped half a million off that gross income figure and probably the reason the owner can't afford a decent haberdashery? Anyone ever notice his arm is always around the shoulders of the person he is posed with in the photos they publish??? (creepy)

Hey, once you get to the 12,000,000,00 mark does anyone really count anymore :confused: The figure, I am sure , Is quite beyond that point anyway once you tally it all up.

The non profit org was blown out the window a very long time ago.

[Jerry McCarthy]

Jerry Peck nailed it. :p

Now can we move on? :)

[Lisa Endza]

There you go again Jerry, with another half post. You claim that a certification based on coursework, coursework that has been awarded over 800 government approvals including from your state of Florida, is "meaningless." But you failed to explain what a meaningful certification would be based on, if not education and training. Can you tell us?

Perhaps you are suggesting we get rid of our entrance requirements altogether, get rid of all our many robust courses, quizzes, and exams, close down our online, video training, tell all the subject-matter experts we no longer need them, stop publishing in-depth articles on inspection topics, stop developing inspection textbooks, DVDs and field guides and instead, have an online application that asks for nothing more than a credit card number and then just issue our highest certification for passing one beginner's exam used by many states to license newbies fresh out of school? Oh wait, there is already a "society" that does that. LOL.


as I doubt any seriously elected board of directors would hire Nick and his crew to run the show ... but then, I could be wrong. Yeah, you cold be wrong. I often I arrive at the office to find high-priced headhunters outside the door, waiting to try to convince Nick to go work for their organization.

[Raymond Wand]

This propaganda message was brought to you by Nachi. :D

[Steven Turetsky]

Lisa,

You CLEARLY have NO IDEA what I am referring to when I said "NEITHER of those associations are what they COULD BE".



Jerry, although in my opinion, your list was posted in a rhetorical fashion. That does not mean that many of your opinions do not mirror some of my own. But, to be honest, most of my opinions are based upon hearsay, and I have no personal first hand knowledge about many of them.

I agree about the worth of non proctored testing and the danger of easy certifications


You mentioned another organization that is not all it could be. Is there a complaint list related to the other organization? Since you posted a INACHI specific opinion complaint list, Please post the other list, of course please include the name. This way we may discuss it with the same intensity.

Hopefully we can have some valuable fact filled, discussion based on facts, without rhetoric, banter, or vulgarity.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, although in my opinion, your list was posted in a rhetorical fashion. That does not mean that many of your opinions do not mirror some of my own. But, to be honest, most of my opinions are based upon hearsay, and I have no personal first hand knowledge about many of them.

My knowledge is first hand ... a few other inspectors and I allowed Nick suck us into thinking he would actually allow us to propose some needed changes to his organization and that he would actually consider what was proposed; instead he allowed his followers to claim that we were trying to "take over" that organization. As I recall, not even once did Nick step up to the plate and admit asking us to do what we did. First and foremost, the meaningless process to get a "CMI" would have been replaced with a regime of requirements before an inspector could consider themselves as having earned any title with the word "master" in it - but I digress, this post is about the second organization, I am just explaining my knowledge of why I posted what I posted.


You mentioned another organization that is not all it could be. Is there a complaint list related to the other organization? Since you posted a INACHI specific opinion complaint list, Please post the other list, of course please include the name. This way we may discuss it with the same intensity.

The other organization is, quite obviously, ASHI.
- That organization could be much better than it is, however, the list would not be as easy to list as the organization with the previous list has made few, if any, changes since that time mentioned above, while the above organization has made some changes, and I have not been associated with that organization since the branding fiasco.
- I can tell you that, at the time, that organization had a forum similar to this one and it was a useful place for banter and the exchange information, however a group who only wanted to hear what they were saying inserted a moderator to keep others opinions squelched down. That moderator did not like my rebuttals to some of the other members, members of the "in group", so he banned me for 30 days - but here is the part that really turned me off on that organization: the moderator admitted, in a post on that forum, that what I said really was not that bad, that he banned me "because he could" ... I repeat ... "because he could" ... no other reason than he had been given that power and he wanted to use it. In my opinion, any moderator who does that should have immediately become "the former moderator" and have been replaced with someone who could separate their personal wants from that of the position.
- However, the attitude of that moderator was the same attitude of those in power in this organization, and is why this organization went headfast into the branding campaign, even though it was advised that many members would not renew if this was done ... and many members did not renew because that was done.
- This organization was supposed to be run for the benefit of its members, not for the benefit of those in power who insisted this would help "the association" when they meant that it would help themselves.
- This organization eventually had its head handed to them on a platter and changed (dropped entirely?) that branding marketing effort. In the meantime, it lost many good inspectors.
- This organization could look at Nick's marketing tactics and apply some of that marketing savvy to their marketing, staying away from things like the branding fiasco - they should develop free educational resources available online to all home inspectors, this could be used to entice non-members to join that organization.
- This organization chooses to try to market itself because it is better, but fails (in my opinion) to actually offer things which make them "better" than the previously mentioned 'other organization'.
- There are, I have no doubt, many other issues I could think back to and bring up, however, this organization has made 'some' changes and at least one of those changes has been for the good.
- Knowing how this organization operates, there would need to be a huge change in the attitudes of the inspectors running the organization to effectuate positive changes. I respect several of the members who have, and may still, help run this organization - specifically Scott Patterson and Jack Feldman. If West Coast Jerry was one of those who served on committees, etc., then WC Jerry is at the top of the list of respected inspectors who helped run this organization. As I recall, WC Jerry was instrumental in helping CRIEA become what it is (his state organization).

If need be, I will add to the above in a few days.

[Lisa Endza]

Referencing ASHI Jerry writes
This organization could look at Nick's marketing tactics and apply some of that marketing savvy to their marketing, staying away from things like the branding fiasco - they should develop free educational resources available online to all home inspectors Uh, I think there already exists an association that utilizes Nick's marketing savvy, doesn't spend member's money on branding itself, and offers free educational resources online. (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm) It's called InterNACHI.

[Joseph Hagarty]

.. That is correct. I have no idea what you are referring to. I tried to predict what you meant and reply by posting stats about InterNACHI, an appropriate response to someone who says we are not what we could be. But you're right, I have no idea what you really mean. I would expect a statement like yours to be followed by an explanation of what it is you think we "could be" but you didn't tell us what you mean.

Steven wisely advises OK. Mr. Peck, what do you mean?

Lisa,

Many years ago (2001),
NACHI was working to develop how we would move forward.
There were various Committees looking at many ideas.
Jerry (if I recall correctly) was active in one of the NACHI development committees.

Back in 2001, the direction was narrowed to 2 alternatives.
Jerry & I shared one of those visions for the NACHI Organization.

Our shared vision was not popular. The alternative was selected......

And NACHI is what it is today.

While different, many components were incorporated within both visions with Education being one of the most important factors.
Gerry Beaumont worked tirelessly to put the initial educational offerings into place. He was truly a driving force in getting NACHI to where they are today in Education.


Moving forward, I am certain that improvements will continually be made just as they have over the last 10 Years that I have been affiliated with NACHI.

[Jerry Peck]

Referencing ASHI Jerry writes Uh, I think there already is an association out there that utilizes Nick's marketing savvy, avoids spending money on branding the association, and offers free educational resources online. (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm) It's called InterNACHI.

Yeah, and it is also the association with the joke certifications ... sheesh, don't you even read the posts? :rolleyes:

Get your organization's act together and become respectable like the other organization, or maybe the other organization will gets their act together and offer the other things your organization does - THEN there could be a really good national organization for home inspectors.

Until then, there will be nothing but continued squabbling and name calling back and forth ... and THAT is really sad and makes BOTH appear to be juveniles.

Sheesh, Lisa, grow up.

You don't even realize that you are an obvious contributor to what is wrong with your organization.

[Lisa Endza]

There you go again Jerry, another half post. You claim that a certification based on coursework, coursework that has been awarded over 800 government approvals including from your state of Florida, is a "joke " But you failed to explain what you would use to offer meaningful certification. Can you tell us all what you would base certification on? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Joseph Hagarty]

There you go again Jerry, another half post. You claim that a certification based on coursework, coursework that has been awarded over 800 government approvals including from your state of Florida, is a "joke " But you failed to explain what you would use to offer meaningful certification. Can you tell us all what you would base certification on? Inquiring minds want to know.

Lisa,
Give up on this post.
You do not have the information to accordingly respond.
Debating Jerry Peck (who knows the information that you do not)
puts you at a disadvantage.

Tommorrow another day
and another battle to be won....

Me......
(I digress)
I am helping to bury a very good friend tomorrow...
A Strong influence in my Business and Life for many years.

About OATS index.htm (http://www.oatrains.org/OATS%20About%20OATS%20index.htm)

John Stevenson, Registered Architect.
http://www.oatrains.org/CJS%20Web%20Photo.BW_small.jpg (http://www.oatrains.org/CJS%20Web%20Photo.BW.jpg)


Rest in Peace.....

[Raymond Wand]

Lisa replying? I think its Nick using Lisa as a medium to get his tireless, broken message across. Fortunately there are enough of us who know how Nachi works behind the scenes.

Anybody wanting a CMI, save your money its nothing but a marketing scheme without any validation.

[Ted Menelly]

How about at the very minimum, proctored tests. Preferably classroom and proctored tests but classroom is not always an option unless offered locally in various places in every state. Most cannot travel around the country or to Vegas or Florida or where ever a national even is held. I am not talking about going to a meeting and someone has a talk on the subject and everyone walks out with that certification.

CLass room or at the least real study courses and proctored test. I am even guilty of taking a class and at the end walking out, with no testing, and having a certificate in hand for the class and cont ed points. Were they decent classes, yes. Was there any study involved at all, no. Keep you eyes open as they went on, walk out with CE points.

Not quite the same as real study and proctored tests.

[Scott Patterson]

Most meaningful certification programs and certifying groups/agencies are part of and have their programs approved and follow the guidelines of ICE > Home (http://www.credentialingexcellence.org/). It is not really all that costly, you just have to meet specific requirements and be able to document everything.

I belive Nick was trying to go through ICE/NCCA for some of his programs and his own certifications, he said that they hired a consultant to work on it. That was a couple of years ago, I have no idea if they proceeded with it or what happened. Nick was bragging about this at one of the confrences he was attending and on his site.

The important part of any certification program is that it is meaningful and that it is not driven to only make a profit. Just being approved by a bureaucratic state agency does not mean anything other than it meets that states guidelines for the approval process. ICE/NCCA have specific rules that have been adopted as the standard for certification programs around the world.Accredited Certification Programs (http://www.credentialingexcellence.org/NCCAAccreditation/AccreditedCertificationPrograms/tabid/120/Default.aspx)

[Lisa Endza]

CORRECTION:

I've just been informed that I've been giving out an incorrect stat regarding InterNACHI's inspection courses. I've been saying that InterNACHI's inspection courses have been awarded 800 government approvals and accreditations. This number is incorrect and I apologize for the error.

[Steven Turetsky]

Scott,

Are ASHI courses ICE approved, and tests proctored?

Lisa,

Are INACHI (all or any) courses approved by ICE (sounds like a spy agency)?

What is INACHI's position on having proctored testing? Personally, I think it's a great idea, and would add to the recognition of the certification.



To all,

If INACHI courses were ICE approved, and if the testing was professionally proctored, do you think it would put an end the validity issues that some have, with the hopes of putting an end to at least this portion of the squabble? Or is there nothing INACHI can do that will satisfy the naysayers?


.

[Rick Cantrell]

CORRECTION:

I've just been informed that I've been giving out an incorrect stat regarding InterNACHI's inspection courses. I've been saying that InterNACHI's inspection courses have been awarded 800 government approvals and accreditations. This number is incorrect and I apologize for the error.

800, 80, or 8000, no one here really cares.
Except for Dan, and the guy that likes to argue with him.

[Raymond Wand]

Scott,
To all,

If INACHI courses were ICE approved, and if the testing was professionally proctored, do you think it would put an end the validity issues that some have, with the hopes of putting an end to at least this portion of the squabble? Or is there nothing INACHI can do that will satisfy the naysayers?
.

No it would not. There is more than having your education verified, properly run associations have proper discipline procedures, defined conflict of interest rules, bylaws, voting, financial statements. You cannot have one while ignoring the other requirement of a credible association in my learned experience. Nachi has none of these.

[Raymond Wand]

800, 80, or 8000, no one here really cares.
Except for Dan, and the guy that likes to argue with him.

That is nonsense. We have seen no proof of anything other then numbers which are unverifiable, and other inflated unverifiable claims.

Its a private marketing association which cannot back up its so called certification titles by recognized industry certification process such as ICE.

[Steven Turetsky]

No it would not. There is more than having your education verified, properly run associations have proper discipline procedures, defined conflict of interest rules, bylaws, voting, financial statements. You cannot have one while ignoring the other requirement of a credible association in my learned experience. Nachi has none of these.

Do you feel the same way about ASHI? (refer to Jerry's list).

[Raymond Wand]

Steve,

I can only answer having been an ASHI member, that ASHI is what Nachi is not. And also being a member of the Canadian equivalent.

It has a certification in place accredited by ICE
It has membership voting.
It has policies.
It has financial disclosure
Proctored exams
Audited inspection review and CEU
It has bylaws
It has a discipline process overseen by a proper functioning committee
It does not have any conflicts of interest, particularly its Ethics and Standards Committee.
Its leaders do not run around making unfounded idiotic remarks about the other associations.
It is not in the habit of issuing certifications as gifts, giveaways or free memberships as promotional items.
It has an independent management team, and elected membership BOD.
It has accounting to the membership.

That's my list I am sure there are other differences.

[Lisa Endza]

That's my list I am sure there are other differences. There sure are! LOL

InterNACHI has entrance requirements, membership benefits, inspector marketing programs, government-approved inspection courses, inspection business success tools, I could go on forever. You can't seriously be trying to compare InterNACHI with any of the smaller associations, are you?

[Raymond Wand]

There sure are! LOL

InterNACHI has entrance requirements, membership benefits, inspector marketing programs, government-approved inspection courses, inspection business success tools, I could go on forever. You can't seriously be trying to compare InterNACHI with any of the smaller associations, are you?

Those are not tangible accreditation properties.
Its leaders do not run around making unfounded idiotic remarks about the other associations.
Better get Nick to write a retort. :D

[Lisa Endza]

Those are not tangible accreditation properties.Tell it to the US EPA and HUD.

[Lisa Endza]

Then tell these organizations that they are all wrong for approving InterNACHI's inspection courses.

Alabama Building Commission
Alaska Department of Commerce Community and Economic Development, Division of Corporations, Business and Professional Licensing, Home Inspector Program
Alberta Government, Service Alberta
American Council for Accredited Certification (ACAC)
Arkansas Home Inspector Registration Board
California Department of Pesticide Regulation
Colorado Department of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry
Connecticut Department of Consumer Protection, Home Inspector Licensing Board
Delaware Department of Agriculture, Pesticide Compliance
Delaware State Housing Authority
Environmental Protection Agency
Florida Construction Industry Licensing Board (CILB)
Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation (DBPR)
Florida Department of Financial Services
Georgia Department of Agriculture
IAC2
Idaho Department of Agriculture
Indiana Real Estate Commission, Home Inspector Licensing Board
Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation, Division of Professional Regulation*
InterNACHI
International Distance Education Certification Center
Kansas Home Inspectors Registration Board
Kentucky Department of Housing, Buildings and Construction, Board of Home Inspectors
Kentucky Public Protection Cabinet Office of Occupations and Professions Board of Home Inspectors
Louisiana State Board of Home Inspectors
Maine Department of Agriculture, Food & Rural Resources, Board of Pesticides Control
Maryland Department of Agriculture, Office of Plant and Pest Management
Massachusetts Department of Agricultural Resources
Master Inspector Certification Board
Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Growth
Mississippi Home Inspector Board
Missouri Real Estate Commission
Montana Department of Labor and Industry, Business Standards Division
Montana Department of Labor and Industry, Business Standards Division 2
Mountain Metro Association of REALTORs
National Environmental Health Association (NEHA)
Nevada Department of Agriculture
Nevada Department of Business and Industry, Real Estate Division
New Hampshire Home Inspector Licensing Board
New Jersey Office of the Attorney General, Division of Consumer Affairs, State Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors, Home Inspection Advisory Committee
New Mexico Department of Agriculture
New York State, Bureau of Educational Standards
North Dakota Secretary of State
City of Toledo, Ohio
Ohio Department of Agriculture
Ohio Department of Commerce, Division of Real Estate & Professional Licensing
Oklahoma Department of Agriculture
Oklahoma State Department of Health, Occupational Licensing Division, Committee of Home Inspector Examiners
Oregon Construction Contractors Board
Oregon Department of Agriculture
Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture
Rhode Island Division of Agriculture
South Carolina and Clemson University Department of Pesticide Regulation
South Carolina Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation, Residential Builders Commission
South Dakota Real Estate Commission
Tennessee Department of Agriculture
Tennessee Department of Commerce and Insurance, Division of Regulatory Boards, Home Inspector Licensing Division
Texas Real Estate Commission (TREC)
U.S. EPA
Utah Department of Agriculture
Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets
Virginia Board of Asbestos, Lead, Mold and Home Inspectors
Virginia Department of Professional and Occupational Regulation
Washington State Department of Agriculture
Washington State Home Inspector Advisory Licensing Board of the Department of Licensing
West Virginia Department of Military Affairs and Public Safety, State Fire Marshal's Office
Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing
Wyoming Real Estate Commission
Wyoming Department of Agriculture

[Lisa Endza]

That isn't even the entire list of organizations that approve InterNACHI's inspection courses.

Here is another organization that accepts InterNACHI's inspection courses. ASHI

[Raymond Wand]

Big deal - they okay your education, but that is not acknowledging Nachi as a certification entity.

Too bad you are continuing to spin a story supplied by your employer.

Strangely you keep over looking what makes and gives an association credibility. I expect to read more dissertation skirting the truth from you, but then again I expect no less from Nachi in order to promote itself with lies.

[Steven Turetsky]

Ray,

I agree and VALUE everything in your post #112.

ASHI is ASHI, INACHI is INACHI.
INACHI is not ASHI, ASHI is not INACHI.
If you like ASHI join ASHI
If you like INACHI, join INACHI
Join both
Join neither

Each person that joins either does so for their own reasons, and some join both.
Obviously, even with all the dislikes of either org, there seems to be quite a few folks that like what each is offering, as reflected by the membership numbers.

I have no personal connection with either association, nor do I wish to. Not because I think that they have nothing to offer, but because I am turned off by the bantering.

I don't think membership in either org is a guarenttee of ability, nor do I think membership in either is an indication of lack of fitness.

As an outsider looking in, sometimes I get the feeling that a certain amount of jealosy of NICK, and of what he has built, Jealosy of ASHI and the high standard it has set, and also feel that many feel threatened by the others existence.

What bothers me the most is that there cannot cannot be a conversation that does not end up turning into a feud between and/or about orgs.

I have friends that are members of both orgs. I don't see why any of them should be denied the right to live in peace and pride of who they are or what they do. Do you know any INACHI members? Are ANY of them worthy inspectors. Do you think that there are ANY worthy INACHI member inspectors anywhere?

I can't understand why a INACHI member can't pop his head out of the grass without it turning into a "my father can beat up your father" event.

If my friend the inspector, who is a good inspector, was a member of ASHI for years decided for his own reasons to join INACHI, is he now a bad inspector?

[Lisa Endza]

Ray, go whine about it to the organizations listed in post #116.

[Bob Elliott]

In Illinois we take NACHI courses and to get State CE's we go through the normal proctoring process.
Many members of ASHI,NAHI take them along side NACHI members.

My local NACHI chapter gives live education with Instructors and a test afterwards.

The fee is half what others charge including ASHI so why is that?

Tests ,tests, tests,and have little to do with business success or excellence gentleman.

Licensed Contractors take tests,pass and they are somehow better? lol
Buildings pass code and get written up by me all the time.

The market decides in the long run.

[Raymond Wand]

Ray, go whine about it to the organizations listed in post #116.

Lisa if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

You haven't provided any information other than Nachi is recognized for its education. That is fine, that is not what is being disputed, and never was.

When you can provide proper befitting accurate info please come back I am not easily impressed by bull and will call a spade a spade.

[Bob Elliott]

Lisa if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

You haven't provided any information other than Nachi is recognized for its education. That is fine, that is not what is being disputed, and never was.

When you can provide proper befitting accurate info please come back I am not easily impressed by bull and will call a spade a spade.

Ray you are not stupid and nether are most here.
NACHI is closer to being run like a private business than the other associations and we all know private business usually does a better job.

Business will always shout from the roof tops.

We just had our annual online Christmas party where Nick gives out tons of prizes most years but I bet the others do not.
There is no dispute you get more for your money as a member of NACHI or (interNachi) for you newbies.

[Raymond Wand]

Thats fine if that is what you want from your association. However as I repeatedly point out there are other disconcerting issues which are affecting Nachi and the members stature. If everyone wishes to overlook those issues that is fine, but no one should think that because other good things exist within Nachi do not cancel out the other legitimate concerns.

All the best Bob, to you and yours.

[Steven Turetsky]

We just had our annual online Christmas party

Did you get drunk?
Is Lisa a good dancer?

[Ted Menelly]

Did you get drunk?

I guess an online Christmas party is the best place to have a Christmas party if you were to get drunk. Cuts way down on the drinking and driving.

On a more serious note. What is this world coming to? I am not quite sure I love the idea of online this and that aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand even an online Christmas party.

Not sure Santa would be impressed.

[Ted Menelly]

Ray you are not stupid and nether are most here.
NACHI is closer to being run like a private business than the other associations and we all know private business usually does a better job.

Business will always shout from the roof tops.

We just had our annual online Christmas party where Nick gives out tons of prizes most years but I bet the others do not.
There is no dispute you get more for your money as a member of NACHI or (interNachi) for you newbies.


Bob

It is a private business. The company is making staggering profits. The write offs are needed.

[Steven Turetsky]

Ted,

Are you anywhere near Austin?

I'll be there for classes 2 weeks in Feb.

Maybe we can go to a rodeo.

[Bob Elliott]

Did you get drunk?
Is Lisa a good dancer?

I met the all the gorgeous intelligent ladies of NACHI and Lisa is part of that group.
Just shows Nick does something right.:)

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

[Bob Elliott]

Bob

It is a private business. The company is making staggering profits. The write offs are needed.

Maybe so but to my benefit.
Guess capitalism is not such a bad thing after all even though I just took a test posted over there that says I am 48% capitalist and 52% socialist.

Any NACHI members over here get back as Nick is still playing Santa.

[Steven Turetsky]

I met the all the gorgeous intelligent ladies of NACHI and Lisa is part of that group.
Just shows Nick does something right.:)

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Don't tease me Bob,

If I join INACHI, it will be just to meet Lisa ;).

[Ted Menelly]

Maybe so but to my benefit.
Guess capitalism is not such a bad thing after all even though I just took a test posted over there that says I am 48% capitalist and 52% socialist.

Any NACHI members over here get back as Nick is still playing Santa.

What does that make you then? A Sociocap :p

[Bob Elliott]

Don't tease me Bob,

If I ever join INACHI, it will be just to meet Lisa ;).

Never knew you quit.
You were a member but just never posted.

Maybe you can win a free lifetime membership as he does give them out every year.

Now if only Active Rain would give out Agents to refer us.LOL
May never happen after my post tonight however.How Do You View Home Inspections? (http://activerain.com/blogsview/2644249/how-do-you-view-home-inspections-#10739868)

[Steven Turetsky]

Never knew you quit.
You were a member but just never posted.

Maybe you can win a free lifetime membership as he does give them out every year.

Now if only Active Rain would give out Agents to refer us.LOL
May never happen after my post tonight however.How Do You View Home Inspections? (http://activerain.com/blogsview/2644249/how-do-you-view-home-inspections-#10739868)

I joined when I first acquired my license, and was advised to join an association. I let my membership lapse because I was turned off by the association bashing.

[Bob Elliott]

I joined when I first acquired my license, and was advised to join an association. I let my membership lapse because I was turned off by the association bashing.

Good thing you are a member here where that never occurs Steve.:confused:
No exit and No escape.
I am guessing the Handpuppet fellow at I.J did that to you.
Are they still around?
They threw me out years ago for the crime of disagreeing NACHI is a link farm and Google banned it.
What lies.

[Steven Turetsky]

Good thing you are a member here where that never occurs Steve.:confused:
No exit and No escape.
I am guessing the Handpuppet fellow at I.J did that to you.
Are they still around?
They threw me out years ago for the crime of disagreeing NACHI is a link farm and Google banned it.
What lies.

The bashing occurs here, there, and everywhere.

We each like a different flavor, and to be honest; I agree with some of the issues from both sides of the bash. Thus, neither became my flavor.

I just get annoyed when it always turns to the same old, stale, and worthless banter.

I haven't visited TIJ in quite a while, and sometimes I miss it. There are some really super super folks there. Some folks made a habit of addressing other folks in a way that was less than respectable. I didn't like that.

[Steven Turetsky]

Perhaps I should start my own org. I could call it International Trained Certified Home Inspectors... ITCHI

[Ted Menelly]

Ted,

Are you anywhere near Austin?

I'll be there for classes 2 weeks in Feb.

Maybe we can go to a rodeo.

About three hours away. What classes are you taking? I try not to venture too far away from DFW because someone my steal me and not let me come back but if the classes are good?

[Steven Turetsky]

My company is sending me for an advanced class on rating non sprinklered buildings.

[Dan Harris]

800, 80, or 8000, no one here really cares.
Except for Dan, and the guy that likes to argue with him.

Me? :D
I'm just one of many here that enjoys reading topics, and sharing info if I feel it will benefit another inspector, and seeing other inspectors share information on this site.
I was under the impression that was the purpose of this site.

If I want to purchase an inspection product, I'll do it by clicking the venders ads and determine if what a certain vender offers works for me.


I get sick of seeing non -ending sales crap [ and my weenie is bigger that your weenie crap] from one assoiciation, only to see that association owner and members on their site bash and lie about inspectors from different assocations, then come here and begs for our $s .. Dang 2 faced SOBs :D


Do you ever see Lisa posting on her site?

I do recall Ben doing the same amount of sales crap on her site , until the members there called him out on it.

[Ted Menelly]

Never knew you quit.
You were a member but just never posted.

Maybe you can win a free lifetime membership as he does give them out every year.

Now if only Active Rain would give out Agents to refer us.LOL
May never happen after my post tonight however.How Do You View Home Inspections? (http://activerain.com/blogsview/2644249/how-do-you-view-home-inspections-#10739868)

In my minds eye this is absolute ... well I am actually looking for your answers to what this sounds like and is.

A quote from an inspector and I left the inspectors and Realtors name out because I did not know the intent of his post or what the wording really meant.

"Realtor Name of realtor), What I do with my home inspections is to separate the maintenance items from the critical items. That way everything is shown but it makes it easier for the Realtor to determine what issues is more serious."

Yes, there are maintenance items and critical items. I do not and never have separated the two. If there is a concern then there is a concern. I highlight all concerns and do not highlight maintenance issues unless it is due to lack of maintenance as to why something failed. If it is a maintenance item that needs expressing so the concern does not happen again then I highlight it just as I would any other concern.

"""""It makes it easier for the Realtor to determine what issues is more serious""""""

The inspection was not done for the Realtor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is not up to the inspector or the realtor to try and figure out what the client wants to add to an addendum. It is not the Realtors inspection. It is the clients inspection and the report. I did not see one mention of a client in that short quote. Where the heck did the client go. When did it become an issue for an inspector to point out to a Realtor what is critical or not. Why is an inspector helping in the sale of the property instead of keeping things between the inspector and the client. Why is anyone giving a Realtor the first concern before the buyer.

That is why Realtors should be banned from ..... well you guys know the rest of the story.

That entire short quote says

I am working for the benefit of you to move the sale of the home along much smoother. I am going to do everything I can for you (the realtor) to keep getting all of YOUR inspections. I want to be your only vendor and let the client that gets between us be damned.

[Ted Menelly]

My company is sending me for an advanced class on rating non sprinklered buildings.

Please send me the info. It sounds interesting. Your company is sending you? I thought you were the company?

[Bob Elliott]

What does that make you then? A Sociocap :p

Heh heh,that may be true.
I think pure forms of either never would work.

Pure capitalism is well represented in the old film "RoboCop"
Socialism makes the masses lazy.

[Steven Turetsky]

Please send me the info. It sounds interesting. Your company is sending you? I thought you were the company?

Dan,

In addition to my private practice, I work for a company that specializes in underwriting surveys. Unfortunately, the class is not open to the public. This will be my second 2 week trip to Austin. After this I will be going to the University of Delaware for a class inspecting and rating sprinkler systems.

[Bob Elliott]

The bashing occurs here, there, and everywhere.

We each like a different flavor, and to be honest; I agree with some of the issues from both sides of the bash. Thus, neither became my flavor.

I just get annoyed when it always turns to the same old, stale, and worthless banter.

I haven't visited TIJ in quite a while, and sometimes I miss it. There are some really super super folks there. Some folks made a habit of addressing other folks in a way that was less than respectable. I didn't like that.

I agree with you as it was my first forum and the sad part is with all the knowledge many there think they are all knowing and think alike as if trained to be that way.
Watch "Village of the Damned".
Too many seem to answer according to what they think will get them a doggy treat and saying only what the several regulars want to hear.
After obtaining reports from some of these experts I was not as impressed as I thought I would be.
My sample report is very old and I leave it up just for kicks since it gives those who hate me a chance to rant.:cool:

[Bob Elliott]

Dan,

In addition to my private practice, I work for a company that specializes in underwriting surveys. Unfortunately, the class is not open to the public. This will be my second 2 week trip to Austin. After this I will be going to the University of Delaware for a class inspecting and rating sprinkler systems.

Glad that is working out for you Steve.
You deserve it.

[Steven Turetsky]

Glad that is working out for you Steve.
You deserve it.
Thank you.

[Jerry Peck]

Perhaps I should start my own org. I could call it International Trained Certified Home Inspectors... ITCHI

I feel the urge to scratch, so I must be ITCHI already? Where do we sign up? ;)

[Steven Turetsky]

We are all ITCHI ;)

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Perhaps I should start my own org. I could call it International Trained Certified Home Inspectors... ITCHI


We are all ITCHI

Just got a PM from SCRATCHI.org, the

Surreptitiously
Certified
Redundantly
Associatated
Transdisciplinarity
Credentialed
Home
Inspectors

Steve, apparently they're gearing up for the ITCHI-SCRATCHI edition of the .ORG WARS! :D

[Steven Turetsky]

Just got a PM from SCRATCHI.org, the

Surreptitiously
Certified
Redundantly
Associatated
Transdisciplinarity
Credentialed
Home
Inspectors

Steve, apparently they're gearing up for the ITCHI-SCRATCHI edition of the .ORG WARS! :D



If we are ITCHI, and they are SCRATCHI everyone should get along just fine.

Just as long as nobody is BITCHI:eek:

[Bob Elliott]

If you join I.T.C.H.I you automatically need S.C.R.A.T.C.H.I
I find both of them irritating.

[Steven Turetsky]

Dr. Watson,

You know some big words.

[Michael Chambers]

I started reading from the top of this thread, and there was a lively discussion about whether or not the modern EIFS was being installed incorrectly, or whether it should even be installed over a wood framed house. I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth, and zipped down to the bottom of the thread to see the latest postings. Wow, here we go again - I'm finding a pissing contest about HI organizations. Go figure! How, and more importantly, why does this happen?

I hope nobody minds, but I'm still going to offer my comment on the original topic, mostly just to remind you all of what it was. I see a combination of two main problems with houses that have the newer EIFS installed. One is that there are still a lot of installers that just don't know how to do it correctly. They sometimes don't flash it correctly, and more often they don't allow for proper drainage of the water that it still going to get behind it. The other problem is that other trades people that have to deal with it (EIFS) don't have the foggiest idea of how to properly protect it and work with it when they install the decks, slabs, HVAC installations, etc. that they're responsible for. They cut penetrations but don't reseal them properly, or they end up blocking the drainage features.

I would think that the architects should be doing a better job of designing and specifying details needed when doing installations where EIFS is involved. And then the general contractors should be doing a better job of overseeing and ensuring that the knowledge and experience necessary for working with this stuff is present with everybody working on a job where EIFS is being installed, no matter what their trade is.

That's my take on it. Sorry for the interruption. You all can get back to your off-topic ranting again now!

[Dan Harris]

I
- I'm finding a pissing contest about HI organizations. Go figure! How, and more importantly, why does this happen?

That's my take on it. Sorry for the interruption. You all can get back to your off-topic ranting again now!

My take, it's pretty simple, :D it's not only with this topic . If you follow this topic you have several inspectors discussing a topic and suggestions how to address them, IE just sharing free information [the intent of this site]

Everythings going fine UNTIL you have someone from from one association[an association owner that tells the public if you don't pay him, you are a dumb stupid scumbag and other choice words] that does not have anything to add to the comments.
Her, his sole objective is I wanta play BUT 1st you need to pay me $365.00 and then I'll teach you the way things should be done, :D :D

[Steven Turetsky]

Michael,

You are right about this thread being hijacked, and Dan is correct when he says that the threads always get hijacked.

Getting back to the intent of this thread, before it gets hijacked again; Yes ultimately it is the responsibility of the architect to include specifications with the plans, and usually it amounts to little more than the manufacturer's handbook (specifications). You can say the the general contractor should ensure it is done correctly, but I doubt if he knows what is correct, and usually listens to his sub who tells him "I've been doing it this way for 30 Years".

The only way to ensure that the product is done correctly is to hire an expert to oversee the installation, form day 1. No, from before the installer even bids the job, this way the installer understands what is expected of him.

Don't get the wrong idea about EIFS, every type of system has its problems, EIFS is no different. But if it is installed correctly the first time, it should be quite successful.

[Steven Turetsky]

By the way Michael, some day go into an EIFS showroom, check out all the techniques and different material they offer to prevent failures. See if even the most basic look like any installation you have seen.

[Michael Chambers]

By the way Michael, some day go into an EIFS showroom, check out all the techniques and different material they offer to prevent failures. See if even the most basic look like any installation you have seen.

Boy, I'll bet that would be an eye opener! I'll have to do that - good suggestion!

I like the stuff, but it's certainly not idiot proof!

[Joseph Hagarty]

General Rule...

All Stucco / Veneer Stone Applications are Improperly Installed.
Inspect looking for reasons to disprove your original findings and opinion.

You will always find something wrong 100 % of the time...

[Kristi Silber]

I didn't read all this thread, so I hope I'm not repeating someone else here. There were a lot of people complaining that EIFS installers do a lousy job of flashing. I just wanted to point out that some of the most important flashing is done when things like windows and doors are installed, and can't be done as effectively afterwards. So really there has to be better communication between subs, or better oversight by the contractor, to get things done right - it can't all be blamed on the EIFS installers.

Oh, and I think someone asked about regional differences. In the Minneapolis area I see lots and lots of stucco, and rarely any EIFS.

That's all! :)

[Billy Stephens]

I didn't read all this thread, so I hope I'm not repeating someone else here. There were a lot of people complaining that EIFS installers do a lousy job of flashing. I just wanted to point out that some of the most important flashing is done when things like windows and doors are installed, and can't be done as effectively afterwards. So really there has to be better communication between subs, or better oversight by the contractor, to get things done right - it can't all be blamed on the EIFS installers.

Oh, and I think someone asked about regional differences. In the Minneapolis area I see lots and lots of stucco, and rarely any EIFS.

That's all! :)
.
Kristi,

The EIFS Installers are Responsible for The Installation, proper flashing being a component.
.

[Kristi Silber]

Billy, you seem to be waiting for me to post so that you can knock down what I say.

My point is that they don't do all the flashing unless they also install the windows, doors, roof, etc, and that the people who do have to keep in mind the siding system when they flash. That's what I would think, anyway, though I don't know much about EIFS. I know that there's other flashing that's installed by the siding crew, but what's there to begin with must play a role.

[Steven Turetsky]

Kristi,

Your are point on about different flashings installed at different phases. For this reason, it is ultimately the responsibility of the architect to specify flashing, and or the builder to insure that they are installed.

The reason it all falls onto the EIFS installer is because once he installs, it is an indication that he has accepted it. It is the "last man to work on it owns it" scenario.

I always advise that prior to an installation the site be inspected by an EIFS inspector/building envelope inspector/quality control inspector to ensure that the site is properly prepared and ready for installation. I also recommend that the EIFS inspector be involved with the architect and that the installer be made aware of the specifications prior to bidding the job.

Finally, the installation should be inspected at phases to insure that each step is done properly, PRIOR to the next phase beginning.

[Billy Stephens]

Billy, you seem to be waiting for me to post so that you can knock down what I say.

My point is that they don't do all the flashing unless they also install the windows, doors, roof, etc, and that the people who do have to keep in mind the siding system when they flash. That's what I would think, anyway, though I don't know much about EIFS. I know that there's other flashing that's installed by the siding crew, but what's there to begin with must play a role.

There is No Siding .

EIFS is The Wall Cladding .

The Installer is Responsible to Inspect The Dwelling before Installation

** I have Subscriptions to many threads and receive email as to keep current. I'm Posting to my subscribed threads.:confused:

[Scott Patterson]

Billy, you seem to be waiting for me to post so that you can knock down what I say.

My point is that they don't do all the flashing unless they also install the windows, doors, roof, etc, and that the people who do have to keep in mind the siding system when they flash. That's what I would think, anyway, though I don't know much about EIFS. I know that there's other flashing that's installed by the siding crew, but what's there to begin with must play a role.

Kristi, the EIFS and most other types of cladding are installed after the flashing.doors and windows are already in.

[Kristi Silber]

Scott, that's my point exactly. That's why those who are doing the pre-cladding flashing have to know about any particular requirements for the EIFS.

Billy, some people call it siding, but if that isn't the proper term, thanks for letting me know.

[Scott Patterson]

Scott, that's my point exactly. That's why those who are doing the pre-cladding flashing have to know about any particular requirements for the EIFS.

Billy, some people call it siding, but if that isn't the proper term, thanks for letting me know.

Yes, that is true but in the end it is the EIFS contractor that has the final say so in the matter. If the flashing is not correct they should not install the cladding but we never see this happen. They just go ahead and slap it up and move on to the next victim!

My experience has shown me that the GC/Builder's do not have a clue as to how the various cladding's need to be properly installed. They all depend on the various contractors to do the job correct even though the GC/Builder has the final responsibility for the performance of the house and it's installed systems. If you were a GC/Builder would you not want to know how things in the home's you are building should be installed or built? I would!

[Jerry Peck]

Your are point on about different flashings installed at different phases. For this reason, it is ultimately the responsibility of the architect to specify flashing, and or the builder to insure that they are installed.

The reason it all falls onto the EIFS installer is because once he installs, it is an indication that he has accepted it.


Yes, that is true but in the end it is the EIFS contractor that has the final say so in the matter. If the flashing is not correct they should not install the cladding but we never see this happen. They just go ahead and slap it up and move on to the next victim!

The above is true with every contractor and subcontractor: It is the contractors responsibility to report non-conforming conditions/prior work by others to the general contractor, architect, or engineer (depending on the type of work) for corrections BEFORE the contractor starts work.

As soon as the contractor starts work and begins to cover up that non-conforming condition/prior work, then the contractor is deemed to have ACCEPTED that non-conforming condition/prior work as their responsibility and that the non-conforming condition/prior work will not impeded or affect their work.

On larger jobs, such as high-rises, non-conforming conditions/prior work is more likely to be reported as the contractor does not to take responsibility for that non-conforming condition/prior work.

On houses, it seems to be a matter of "Git R Done" without regard to how it 'gits done'.

[Kristi Silber]

Yeah, fair enough, I guess I made it sound like it was the responsibility of the others to ensure the flashing was right for the EIFS installers. All I really meant was that there had to be communication and oversight long before the EIFS actually went up, and that could be a reason so many installations fail. Who knows, maybe some good EIFS installers get fed up with others' lousy flashing!

That's one problem with the way houses are built today, I reckon: There are different people doing each step of the building, all having to deal with whatever stupid mistakes the guys (and girls!) before them made. It's a different experience doing almost everything to build a house - you tend to take more pride in the job, I'd think.