New Home Construction and Flex Duct

[Judy Norris]

I am having a new home built in the Houston, Texas area and the flexible duct in the second floor attic is massive and many of the ducts are touching each other. Some are tied up and separated, but the majority of the ducts are touching and look very cramped. Having had a one story house in the past, I did not have this issue. What type of problems can this present? Is this a common occurrence?

[Ted Menelly]

Any pictures

All that you have said sounds like the norm but with out pictures or seeing how "cramped" and exactly what you mean by touching etc is almost impossible without pictures.

If you mean cramped as in squashed tight corners from hangers cutting them off then that is a problem. If any are lying around on the attic floor then that can be a problem.

To much to get into with out pics

[Nick Ostrowski]

What Ted said. Pics???

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Have you considered hiring a professional inspector to assist you during the building process and stage inspections and look out for YOUR INTERESTS?

[Elliot Franson]

Instead of hiring an inspector your money would be better spent hiring an HVAC engineer (not a technician, but an engineer) to assess the system, perform load calculations as per ACCA Manual J, and insure that the ducts are installed according to ACCA Manual D. This can be done in my area for about half the cost of hiring a home inspector.

[Ted Menelly]

Instead of hiring an inspector your money would be better spent hiring an HVAC engineer (not a technician, but an engineer) to assess the system, perform load calculations as per ACCA Manual J, and insure that the ducts are installed according to ACCA Manual D. This can be done in my area for about half the cost of hiring a home inspector.

And she might as well hire an electrician and plumber and framer and roofer and cabinet man etc etc etc.

That is what home inspectors are all about. I think a home inspector doing phase inspections for her would be more in line.

Judy

If you already have questions about certain aspects of the home and for that matter , even if you don't, you should hire a hoe inspector. Sometimes they find little to nothing in a new home sometimes they find things completely messed up.

[Rick Hurst]

Ted,

And where would one find this "hoe" inspector? :D

[John Kogel]

Ted,

And where would one find this "hoe" inspector? :DYou go to Hoe Depot and ask. :)

I'm with Ted on this. The ducts in the attic are only part of it, framing, wiring, plumbing, siding, perimeter drains, etc can all be checked now before they close the place up.

[Ted Menelly]

Ted,

And where would one find this "hoe" inspector? :D

As Realtors think....we are all a hoe. Sometimes that m does not work. I think it is from the brain washing that Realtors try on us.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Instead of hiring an inspector your money would be better spent hiring an HVAC engineer (not a technician, but an engineer) to assess the system, perform load calculations as per ACCA Manual J, and insure that the ducts are installed according to ACCA Manual D. This can be done in my area for about half the cost of hiring a home inspector.

Interestingly enough I didn't say "home inspector" I said "professional inspector".

Since same should have already been done, and submitted in the plans, a properly credentialed professional inspector should be more than capable of reviewing the plans, etc. and inspecting on behalf of the OP at appropriate stages of construction.

[Ross Neag]

Judy,

Apart from other comments, I would STRONGLY advise you to have your system ductwork inspected by a COMPETENT and CERTIFIED hvac contractor in AIR BALANCING who knows how to run a STATIC PRESSURE test and use a FLOW HOOD. You will be in that house for a long time--hopefully--and this is money well spent to optimize comfort and performance and equipment life.

The use of flex duct is fine for any lengths of less than 6' but, IDEALLY, all ductwork would be rigid, well sealed and insulated, and have as many well designed transitions as possible. Flex duct is prone to reduced airflow, kinks/damage/deterioration and poorer performance. We see a ton of absolute garbage ductwork here in Chicago's new construction and if you have the ability to catch it now you will be off on the right foot.

The National Comfort Institute should provide you with a list of contractors in your area who can do this.

[Chuck Evans]

Hi Judy,

In Texas you will find that flex duct is the norm for HVAC systems. It would be rare to find rigid metal duct in a new Houston area home unless you were building a multi-million dollar custom home and asked for it specifically.

Flex duct will typically be routed through the attic and in vertical chases. It is composed of multiple layers including a layer of insulation which is typically only rated R-6. Supply ducts should be routed/hung so that they do not touch one another as this compresses the insulation, reducing its R value even further and can cause them to sweat in the attic. Your supply ducts should be hung so that there is free air space between them.

Ask your inspector to ensure that your flexible ductwork is installed in accordance with the Air Diffusion Council Standards. The ADC is an industry consortium of duct manufacturers and they have a collective, shared set of standards for flexible duct installations. Your home inspector should be able to speak to the applicable elements of these standards and determine if your installation complies with the manufacturer's specifications.

[James Duffin]

Judy....

If Texas is like NC....in a two story house you have to have either two separate systems (one for each floor) or a single system with zone dampers and a thermostat for each floor. The goal is to keep the two floors within 4 degrees of each other. If you have a damper system the ducts have to be run close together to make them all fit. Also most HVAC contractors normally give you one free air balance after you have lived in the house a while so it is to the HVAC contractor advantage to install the system correctly so he want have to do it again later to be able to maintain that 4 degree maximum difference between floors.

[Rich Goeken]

Instead of hiring an inspector your money would be better spent hiring an HVAC engineer (not a technician, but an engineer) to assess the system, perform load calculations as per ACCA Manual J, and insure that the ducts are installed according to ACCA Manual D. This can be done in my area for about half the cost of hiring a home inspector.


I would think, if there is a concern that the HVAC system is not being installed correctly, I would ask the contractor to provide the documentation used to design the new system. No cost here. If they can't or won't, then a closer look is warranted by an engineer or competent HVAC contractor. There may not be a problem, but if there is a concern, it should be addressed.

Here in NJ, a lot of homes in the newer communities are using flexible ducting, and if in the attic---trunk line too.

[Elliot Franson]

Ms. Norris:

As you may know, home builders in the State of Texas are not regulated. They are some of the worst in the nation. There is also quite a bit of competition in their profession which leads to them hiring the absolute cheapest contractors they can find. This in turn leads to shoddy practices in all of the trades, even those such as HVAC which require state licensing.

It is not uncommon for the builder to leave the entire design of the HVAC systems for their new homes to the inexperienced apprentice and journeymen HVAC technicians who do the actual installation. This leads to a practice of installing "just whatever is on the truck" in houses and in the most expeditious fashion possible.

If issues are found with the system they are usually not discovered until after the 2-year mechanical warranty has expired. Then the repair bill will be yours to foot.

Follow the advice of others if you like, but if it were my house, and I have been both a builder and inspector for more years than I care to admit, I would hire an HVAC engineer to assist you. The money will be some of the best you have ever spent.

[Wayne Carlisle]

It is composed of multiple layers including a layer of insulation which is typically only rated R-6.

Texas requires R-8 insulation on the ducts unless you use a higher efficiency unit than the standard 13 SEER.

[Chuck Evans]

Texas requires R-8 insulation on the ducts unless you use a higher efficiency unit than the standard 13 SEER.

I just about never see R-8 insulation on flex ducts here. Not that it would make any difference in how they need to be routed or why they should not be in contact with one another anyway.

Would you please provide a reference for the statewide R-8 requirement? I have not seen it.

[Jeff Euriech]

Judy

It is not uncommon on smaller two story houses, for the attic to be very congested with flexible ducts etc. While the ducts may appear to be cramped or touching, it does not necessarily mean there is a problem. I have never heard or read anything that says you cannot have ducts touching each other. If anybody has any reference material for this, please post it.

We tend to be looking for other items that would indicate problems. Such as sags in the ducts, crimped ducts, crushed ducts, sharp corners, ducts not stretched out, missing supports, air leaks, ducts not properly secured, torn vapor barrier, exposed to sun light, etc.

For your piece of mind, I would recommend having a home inspection done.

Chuck

I'm not sure which codes you are using down there. However, the 2006 IRC under N1103.2.1 says: Supply and return ducts shall be insulated to a minimum of R-8. Ducts in the floor trusses, shall be insulated to a minimum of R-6.

Jeff Euriech

[imported_John Smith]

Hire a home inspector to follow the job. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.


Soliciting this board to do a virtual home inspection on your house isnt good for inspectors and it wont be good for you in the long run. You are only posting the stuff that you or someone else thinks is wrong with the house. People on this board do this stuff daily and there is no substitute for having a licensed inspector follow the work to see the stuff that you arent seeing or arent aware of as being a problem.

[Elliot Franson]

At the risk of repeating myself, a home inspector is not adequate for this situation. The Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (http://www.license.state.tx.us/acr/acr.htm) strictly prohibits unlicensed personnel from practicing as HVAC technicians and the Texas Board of Professional Engineers (http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/) takes the same stance when it comes to pretending to be an engineer.

The load calculations necessary to design an effective HVAC system are a bit more sophisticated than what can be handled by the average HI. Additionally, home inspections in the State of Texas are visual inspections that do not require the use of special tools.

So then, put away your sling hygrometers, anemometers, your AACA manuals and other such pricey gizmos and leave this sort of work to those who are trained to do it.

HIs are generalists who must be willing to overcome their hubris in order to defer to those who know better.:eek:

[Jeff Euriech]

This can be done in my area for about half the cost of hiring a home inspector.


If you can get an expert for half the cost of a home inspection, by all means do it. However, in my area, the expert will cost you a lot more money.

I'm not sure how we got from 'ducts touching and looks cramped' to doing load calculations. I would not even suggest load calculations unless I first identified some sort of a problem. (currently we only have a concern)

While I agree that home inspectors are generalists, they do serve a purpose. Based on the concerns expressed, I would not jump immediately to an HVAC technician or an engineer at this time.

Jeff Euriech

.

[Elliot Franson]

However, in my area, the expert will cost you a lot more money.

Mr. Euriech:

Judging solely by recent irrational decisions made in your state regarding subjects taboo on this forum, I would surmise that experts of any kind are difficult to come by in your area. Hence, the elevated fee structure.

[James Duffin]

In NC the HVAC contractor is required to do a load calculation before a system is installed. This has to be available to the owner and will be used in the case of a dispute with the operation of the system. I bet if a NC HVAC contractor to do a load calculation one in Texas can too.



21 NCAC 50 .0505 GENERAL SUPERVISION AND STANDARD OF COMPETENCE

(d) Every newly installed residential heating system, air conditioning system or both shall be designed and installed to maintain a maximum temperature differential of 4 degrees Fahrenheit room-to-room and floor to-floor. On multilevel structures, contractors are required to either provide a separate HVAC system for each floor or to install automatically controlled zoning equipment for each level with individual thermostats
on each level to control the temperature for that level. The seasonal adjustment needed to maintain the 4 degree Fahrenheit room-to-room and floor-to-floor maximum temperature differential shall not be accomplished through the use of manual dampers.

(e) All licensed HVAC contractors are required to perform a thorough room-by-room load calculation for all new residential structures prior to installing heating systems, air conditioning systems, or both which
calculations shall be specific to the location and orientation where the HVAC system or equipment is to be installed. A written record of the system and equipment sizing information shall be provided to the owner
or general contractor upon request and a copy shall be maintained in the job file of the licensee for a minimum of six (6) years.

(f) When either a furnace, condenser, or air handler in an existing residential heating or air conditioning system is replaced, the licensed HVAC contractor is required to perform a minimum of a whole house
block load calculation. When a furnace, condenser or air handler in a residential heating or air conditioning system is replaced, it is the responsibility of the licensee to ensure that all systems and equipment are
properly sized. The licensee may utilize industry standards, reference materials, evaluation of the structure, and load calculations. A written record of the system and equipment sizing information shall be provided
to the homeowner, owner or general contractor upon request and a copy shall be maintained in the job file of the licensee for a minimum of six (6) years. If a load calculation was not performed or if a load
calculation was performed and it is later determined by the Board that the unit installed was undersized or oversized, the installation will be considered as evidence of incompetence.

[Mitchell Toelle]

Judy,

I'm not sure what your relationship is with the Builder, or what your contract/ agreement might be like. As others have said here, have the building inspected by a Professional Inspector first. If the advice and recommendations of that Inspector provide for further review and corrections regarding the HVAC system you may be able to put this cost on the Builder as a requirement. Almost for sure, if the Inspector you hire is worth their weight (do your homework and interview several...not based on price) they are going to find reportable conditions on other structure and systems within the building. This is about being a smart consumer.... or not.

[Elliot Franson]

While I am certain that you folks have this lady's best interests at heart, a perusal of the requirements for a real estate inspector in the State of Texas may change your mind about your specious recommendations.

: Texas Administrative Code (http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=22&pt=23&ch=535&rl=230)

[James Duffin]

Based on the information on that link a licensed HVAC contractor should do that inspection. That is a lot more than a typical home inspector would do around here. Is that part of the SOP for a typical home inspection in Texas?

[Rich Goeken]

In NC the HVAC contractor is required to do a load calculation ......


"21 NCAC 50 .0505 GENERAL SUPERVISION AND STANDARD OF COMPETENCE

(d) Every newly installed residential heating system, air conditioning system or both shall be designed and installed to maintain a maximum temperature differential of 4 degrees Fahrenheit room-to-room and floor to-floor. "




Very surprised to see a 4 degree allowance. A HVAC system installed, but not tuned should reflect this amount of variance. I would expect to see a 2 degree allowance, but not 4----4's a lot.

[James Duffin]

I understand that the 4 degrees allowable difference was decided upon because it was obtainable in real-life situations. In most cases it will be less than 4 degrees in a properly installed system.

In two story houses I have seen 8-10 difference in the two levels during the cooling season when the thermostat was on the first floor. It also does away with the question "When is the temperature between floors too large?" I have used the new 4 degree regulation in a couple of inspections on new houses and the HVAC contractor had no choice but to fix it or get reported to the licensing board by the builder. It makes my job easier to have a standard rather than sounding like the Three Bears...It is Too Hot....Too Cold...or Just Right. Just my opinion of course...

What is the rule in your area?

[Elliot Franson]

Based on the information on that link a licensed HVAC contractor should do that inspection. That is a lot more than a typical home inspector would do around here. Is that part of the SOP for a typical home inspection in Texas?

Mr. Duffin: Yes that link is to the Texas HI SOP.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

A construction stage inspection on behalf of the contractee of the builder's stage performance, is not a "home inspection pertaining to the sale of real property" even in the State of Texas, it is contract performance outside of a real-estate transaction. The construction is not yet complete, there is no certificate of occupancy, the permits are still open, it is not yet an occupiable residence. "Home Inspection" and "Inspection Report" limitations, guidelines, rules, etc. do not apply to such "stage inspections" or "consultations in Texas.

OP is obviously not at the point of a final walk-through in anticipation of final settlement or closing on a completed residence or a real estate transaction.

It is unclear from the OPs various post strings as to if she OWNS the land, and has contracted a builder to errect a home for her on her LAND, or if she is working with a spec builder and builder's sales agent to purchase both land and home when completed.

In either case, mid-construction, is not a "home inspection" under TREC. If she owns the land and has contracted the builder even "final" would not be a home inspection under TREC.

And, I repeat, I did not recommend a "home inspector" to perform a "home inspection" I recommended a "professional inspector" to consult/employ for construction "stage inspections" and consultation - distinctions with differences.

Mr. Miller, or Franson or whatever he calls himself today, fails (intentionally) to understand both distinctions with a difference (in both my posts and the Texas Administrative Code) and in "classic" fashion has introduced the idea of an inspector designing or performing HVAC calculations relative to the design of the required filed plan, neither of which has been sugested by anyone else on this thread.

The Off Topic banter about areas undeveloped by the original poster, and inapplicable jurisdictions (who cares what North Carolina's rules or codes are on anything - the Original Poster, a non-home inspector, a private party, is asking questions about her Houstin-area, TEXAS future residence currently under construction!!).

We do not know if she owns the land and has contracted with a DEVELOPER or "builder/GC" to effect "her project home", or if she is looking to buy a residence upon completion of some other entity's "development".

ENOUGH SAID. The Off-topic debates and hijacks of Ms. Norton's thread need to stop, as well as the disinformation. It is neither helpful to the non-professional OP nor the HI. Those wishing to develop other topics or amuse themselves, should do so on a different topic thread.

[James Duffin]

I apologize....I misread the last section that covers exclusions. I read it the first time as things that had to be inspected. When you remove these items you are back to a normal inspection. The one thing that stuck out to me was e) (2) (A)...Refrigeratant Pressure.




e) Specific limitations for the heating equipment, cooling equipment, duct system, chases, and vents. The inspector is not required to:

(1) program digital thermostats or controls;

(2) inspect:

(A) for pressure of the system refrigerant, type of refrigerant, or refrigerant leaks;

(B) winterized evaporative coolers; or

(C) humidifiers, dehumidifiers, air purifiers, motorized dampers, electronic air filters, multi-stage controllers, sequencers, heat reclaimers, wood burning stoves, boilers, oil-fired units, supplemental heating appliances, de-icing provisions, or reversing valves;

(3) operate:

(A) setback features on thermostats or controls;

(B) cooling equipment when the outdoor temperature is less than 60 degrees Fahrenheit;

(C) radiant heaters, steam heat systems, or unvented gas-fired heating appliances; or

(D) heat pumps when temperatures may damage equipment;

(4) verify:

(A) compatibility of components;

(B) the accuracy of thermostats; or

(C) the integrity of the heat exchanger; or

(5) determine:

(A) sizing, efficiency, or adequacy of the system;

(B) uniformity of the supply of conditioned air to the various parts of the structure; or

(C) types of materials contained in insulation.

[Elliot Franson]

A construction stage inspection on behalf of the contractee of the builder's stage performance, is not a "home inspection pertaining to the sale of real property" even in the State of Texas, it is contract performance outside of a real-estate transaction.

Mr. Watson:

Before you get that particular foot inserted too deeply:

“Under current law, TREC's (the Texas Real Estate Commission’s) jurisdiction extends to any inspection of real property performed in anticipation of a purchase or sale of real estate. This includes any inspection in connection with the anticipated purchase of real estate from a builder, including phase inspections (but not the inspection of a structure being constructed on land already owned by the homeowner-to-be). Likewise, any inspection performed for an owner in anticipation of selling falls under TREC's jurisdiction, regardless of whether there is a specific buyer in mind at the time of the inspection.” – Devon Bijansky, Deputy General Counsel, Texas Real Estate Commission.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Mr. Watson:

Before you get that particular foot inserted too deeply:

“Under current law, TREC's (the Texas Real Estate Commission’s) jurisdiction extends to any inspection of real property performed in anticipation of a purchase or sale of real estate. This includes any inspection in connection with the anticipated purchase of real estate from a builder, including phase inspections (but not the inspection of a structure being constructed on land already owned by the homeowner-to-be). Likewise, any inspection performed for an owner in anticipation of selling falls under TREC's jurisdiction, regardless of whether there is a specific buyer in mind at the time of the inspection.” – Devon Bijansky, Deputy General Counsel, Texas Real Estate Commission.

TREC has no jurisdiction over Construction Contractors, architects, engineers or municipal, county or state employed inspectors. Their jurisdiction is limited. I further note your supposed quotation has no citation as to sourced publication, nor date. Furthermore such statements authored by subordinate staff attorneys are not binding jurisdictionally, they represent an opinon of an individual and are in no way authoritative.

[Elliot Franson]

TREC has no jurisdiction over Construction Contractors, architects, engineers or municipal, county or state employed inspectors. Their jurisdiction is limited. I further note your supposed quotation has no citation as to sourced publication, nor date. Furthermore such statements authored by subordinate staff attorneys are not binding jurisdictionally, they represent an opinon of an individual and are in no way authoritative.

Mr. Watson: Would it be too much trouble for you to post a copy of your credentials allowing you to practice law in the State of Texas? If so, then please let us not lead the masses down the wrong road with your wild suppositions.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

It is you sir who are wild and intentionally misleading in your posts and postulations.

Licensed Engineers, and those in their employ are NOT under the jurisdiction of TREC nor subject to 1102 of the Texas Occupations Code.
They are indeed authorized to perform under 1001. Those employed by a Licensed Engineer are subject to requirements further deliniated at that chapter. You claim ignorance of what the practice involves, and are invited to review Chapter 1001 of the Occupations Code. Pay special attention to 1001.3(c) and 1001.52 as you read.

Chapter 1051 of the Occupations Code governs the dicipline of Architecture. Again far beyond the reaches of the Realtors Commission or its recently installed Ms. Deputy General Counsel.

Furthermore 1102.002 additionally limits the applicability of Chapter 1102, and gives examples of other occupations which engage in inspection





Sec. 1102.002 APPLICABILITY OF CHAPTER.
(a) THIS CHAPTER DOES NOT APPLY TO A PERSON WHO repairs, maintains, or INSPECTS IMPROVEMENTS TO REAL PROPERTY, INCLUDING an elevctrician, plumber, carpenter, or person in the business of structural pest control in compliance with Chapter 1951, if the person does not represent to the public through personal solicitation or public advertising that the person is in the business of inspecting those improvmenents.
(b) THIS CHAPTER DOES NOT PREVENT A PERSON FROM PERFORMING AN ACT THE PERSON IS AUTHORIZED TO PERFORM UNDER A LICENSE OR REGISTRATION ISSUED BY THIS STATE OR A GOVERNMENTAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE UNDER A LAW OTHER THAN THIS CHAPTER.

determinations of systems which again, despite claimed quotation, unsubstantiated, verified, and apparently UNPUBLISHED, apparently overbroad and therefore erroneous, unknown limitations of context, is incorrect as you have presented it.

Now, Mr. "Elliot Franson", "Aaron Miller", "Aaron D. Miller" or "A.D. Miller" or whatever you chose to call yourself today, as you have again resorted to Off Topic diversions and your usual devices, you have again exposed yourself.

As you well know in your myraid submissions to General Counsel "or delegate" for opinions on rules or standards of YOUR practice, when you make those requests you cite the same, that they are not authoritative. You CYA yourself to avoid expenses or punishment should you later be accused of a violation.

The administrative rules for "Real Estate Inspectors", do NOT apply to those not under the jurisdiction of TREC.

Furthermore, we DO NOT KNOW if the land on which subject HOME is being constructed BELONGS TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER, and if not, we DO NOT KNOW when the Original Poster contracted for her building project, or when work commenced, as to Title 16. TRCC is not completely kaput, it is in sunsetting mode but not completely sunset.

Finally, links to and shots of your posts pertaining to alledged quotation of Ms. Deputy General Counsel have been forwarded to same and Ms. General Counsel for their information, to do with what they chose in their capacity, cc'd the Ethics Commission and AGs Office. Both have been invited to correspond with the owner/administrator of this site regarding any quesitons they may have as to content and contributions, especially represented as to be from them, regarding "your" posts on this site.

[David Bell]

[quote=Elliot Franson;140584]
So then, put away your sling hygrometers,

Some folks call it a hygrometer, I's just call it a sling blade uh huh.
Or in this case a Psychrometer. PSYCH.

[Elliot Franson]

Mr. Watson: As usual your blowhard tactics are transpicuous. After all that wind I find not a shred of evidence drifting down that you are somehow qualified to hold forth on the subject.:D

[David Bell]

Back to the same old you A.D. You are like a drunk at closing time, refusing to leave. I think you're starting to slur your pontifcations.

[Wayne Carlisle]

I just about never see R-8 insulation on flex ducts here. Not that it would make any difference in how they need to be routed or why they should not be in contact with one another anyway.

Would you please provide a reference for the statewide R-8 requirement? I have not seen it.

Here you go!


N1103.2 Ducts.
N1103.2.1 Insulation. Supply and return ducts shall be
insulated to a minimum of R-8. Ducts in floor trusses shall
be insulated to a minimum of R-6.

Exception: Ducts or portions thereof located completely
inside the building thermal envelope.

[Chuck Evans]

Here you go!


N1103.2 Ducts.
N1103.2.1 Insulation. Supply and return ducts shall be
insulated to a minimum of R-8. Ducts in floor trusses shall
be insulated to a minimum of R-6.

Exception: Ducts or portions thereof located completely
inside the building thermal envelope.


Thanks Wayne