Trade or profession? [Archive] - InspectionNews

Raymond Wand

08-14-2010, 04:53 AM

Semantics?

Industry refers to the production of an economic good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_good) (either material or a service) within an economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industry#cite_note-0) There are four key industrial economic sectors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_sector): the primary sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_sector), largely raw material extraction industries such as mining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining) and farming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farming); the secondary sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_sector), involving refining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refinery), construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction), and manufacturing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing); the tertiary sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_sector), which deals with services (such as law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) and medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine)) and distribution of manufactured goods; and the quaternary sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_sector), a relatively new type of knowledge industry focusing on technological research, design and development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%26D) such as computer programming, and biochemistry. A fifth, quinary, sector has been proposed encompassing nonprofit activities. The economy is also broadly separated into public sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_sector) and private sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_sector), with industry generally categorized as private. Industries are also any business or manufacturing.

Eric Barker

08-14-2010, 06:15 AM

My vote is that home inspecting is a profession.The Oxford Dictionary defines a profession as: work that involves some branch of advanced learning of science.

For Professional it says: Adjective - trained, practiced, veteran, experienced, qualified, licensed; competent, able, skilled, expert, masterful. Noun - master, expert, specialist, authority, proficient.

Now a lot of inspectors will fall under the Professional heading.

Others will fall under "quick buck BillieBobs" and totally miss the definition of professional.

Raymond Wand

08-14-2010, 06:18 AM

So.. plumbers, electricians, HVAC's are also professionals?

chris mcintyre

08-14-2010, 08:37 AM

So.. plumbers, electricians, HVAC's are also professionals?

Yes, according to Dictionary.com
Professional | Define Professional at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/professional)

Scott Patterson

08-14-2010, 10:37 AM

Yes, according to Dictionary.com
Professional | Define Professional at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/professional)

How about "professional tradesmen", I think that covers it pretty good.

Glenn Duxbury

08-20-2010, 01:57 PM

Hi, ALL &

No doubt - I'm a true Professional (cannot speak for others, however)...

We're really not that far from 'Engineers' - if you think about it - those at least who are members in good standing with a recognized professional Ass'n.

Those who may not be sure - 'elevate' yourselves !

Am sure there are lots of UN-professional Inspectors, too (ones that tend to make the News, etc.), but I won't go there.

CHEERS !

Ted Menelly

08-20-2010, 02:24 PM

So if one is a Professional and one does not act Professional is one still a Professional?

I think professional has multiple meanings no matter what a dictionary says.

When I was a tradesman I was very professional at what I did. So, I guess I was a professional tradesman or a "Professional"?

Thieves......There are thieves and there are Professional Thieves so I guess the professional thief is a "Professional"?

We can go on all day. Once upon a time men used to ask each other what trade the other was in. That was even if they were considered a Professional at what they did and not at what their job description was. I remember years and years ago a professional was just one that went to college. Everyone else was just blue collar or a tradesman (as far as the college folks thought). I think it has been pretty much that way thru time.

I do not wear a tie or jacket but then again most "professionals" do not now a days.

I also remember when one used to put decent clothes on for church or "Sunday Best". Look at most churches now. Many folks are just in shorts and a Polo or T shirt.

If one is a Professional and does not dress the part in dress pants and shirt and tie is he still a Professional? I am a professional and dress in jeans, descent soft soled shoes and Polo shirt in the summer and a T shirt and dress shirt or nice long sleeve shirt in the winter. Because I do not dress in a dress shirt, tie and slacks am I still a professional?

Mike Truss Guy

08-20-2010, 05:37 PM

It's a pseudo-science. Like psychology. ;)

Richard Soundy

08-20-2010, 06:44 PM

Of course, you can call yourself anything you want. But, give thought to the original definition (per my #4 post = "The origin of a "professional" is one who had to qualify in a specific subject of "higher" learning and generally had to take a specific oath of practice.") The position started in religious order and then moved to medicine.

In todays world "higher" learning is beyond a degree, more like a Masters or Doctorate. Take an oath???? We hardly stick to our SOP's .....

Basically, it comes down to what is the "in" thing. In the western world, old days, the ARTISAN (now we call it tradesman) held high respect amongst the people e.g. Masons etc.. Even today, in China, artisans are equal to engineers/doctors and highly admired.

The pendulum will swing and the artisan will be in demand once again.

All the best - Richard

John Ghent

08-21-2010, 06:41 AM

What's your vote - is home inspection a trade or a profession?
If you can please state - what's your rationale for your choice.
Thanks in advance

There once was a Profession called Home Inspection. Many of the early practitioners were professionals. Unfortunately the profession has reverted to a pseudo profession due to the high number of trades persons who have become home inspectors. While the influx of inspectors was expected, the lowering of standards was not.

The trade has become overly influenced by realtwhores,
The tradesmen have garnered much of the little work they get by cutting fees and catering to realtwhores,
The level of knowledge has deteriorated among these tradesmen, as is evidenced by some of the simplistic questions posed on this and other forums,
The access to certification is a joke.

Just my two cents.

bobhaley

10-10-2011, 01:13 PM

Yes, we are truly Professionals!
We just do not,will not,or afraid to charge fees that would enable us to be considered professional.
Many professionals ie: Drs.,Attorney's, CPA's,business owners etc. for whom we perform inspections consider us to be tradesmen,technicians etc. since we work for such low fees.
Consider who is buying those big expensive homes that we inspect.
Are they professionals?
Why aren't we as Professional Home Inspectors buying these big homes etc.??

Michael Thomas

10-12-2011, 10:31 AM

I'm a professional inspector who is always trying to learn more about the work done by tradespersons, and who everyday wishes he could be a master of each of their trades.

Bill Mullen

10-14-2011, 04:11 AM

I'm a professional inspector who is always trying to learn more about the work done by tradespersons, and who everyday wishes he could be a master of each of their trades.

That's an interesting view of our job, Michael.

In my opinion, we can call ourselves Tradesmen, Professionals, or even (Yikes !!) Master Inspectors, but we also have to start walking the walk.

As long as some segments of our industry try to get work using gimmicks, instant certifications, unmonitored online testing and questionable add-ons to our inspections, we are no better than anyone else and have no right to call ourselves 'Professionals'.

We could be a Professional industry easily if the will was there by everyone to raise the competence and knowledge bar to a strong level that it would take much moire education and practical training to be a home inspector.

For instance, in Canada we have the 'National Occupational Standards for Home Inspectors' (NOS) that was developed in 2001 and reviewed in 2008. It outlines what we do for a living and how we do it. It is a nationally accepted, government approved and respected set of guidelines, but only one or two organizations in the country insist that ther inspectors adhere closely to the NOS.

If we could get uniformity that would be a good start.

All the best

Bill Mullen NHI, ACI, PHPI, RHI
Sarnia, Ontario

Jim Robinson

10-14-2011, 07:57 AM

We can say whatever we want about wanting to be paid well, respected, etc. When there is little to no barrier to entry, and practically no formal training required, most folks out there are not going to consider us on a par with a doctor, attorney, or other white collar professional. In many states it's easier to be a home inspector than a hair stylist, not to mention an electrician or plumber.

As far as pay, it comes back to supply and demand. If you or I aren't here tomorrow, how hard will it be to find someone else to do this job? That will be the primary determinant of how much money you will make. You can rise to the upper end of that scale by being great at what you do. You can lower the average by selling price instead of quality, which is what a new inspector almost has to do until he/she becomes more established. It's pretty straight forward economic principles.

Matthew Steger

10-14-2011, 12:38 PM

We are a profession.

Bill Mullen

10-16-2011, 01:30 PM

We are a profession.

Based on what?

Professionals don't offer their services at one third to one half of the cost of their colleagues. (Many in our industry do this)
Professionals don't offer coupons or other gimmicks to gain business. (Many in our industry do this)
Professionals don't compromize their own integrity and ethics to please someone else who can send them more business. (Many in our industry do this)
Professionals take actual third-party accredited courses and write exams that are proctored. (Not enough in our industry do this)
Professionals can't become 'Professionals' by simply passing a brief online, unproctored test and 'promising' to complete some other online tasks. (Many in our industry do this)
Professionals don't consider themselves 'Masters' of their industry after merely paying a fee and signing a statement that you have completed some requirements, with no third party verification. (Many in our industry do this)
Professionals do not practice until they have met stringent requirements including education, on-the-job training, testing and verification by objective, third-party accredited trainers. (Many in our industry begin practicing with only new business cards and a flashlight as their only qualification)

etc.Sorry, but until our industry agrees to a consistent, high level of competence and third party verification every step of the way, we aren't even qualified to be called a trade.

Bill Mullen

Stephen G

10-16-2011, 04:57 PM

Bill.

Glad to hear from you.

Steve Gazo

Jim Luttrall

10-16-2011, 05:55 PM

Bill Mullen

10-16-2011, 06:14 PM

In Texas, we have three classes of licensing, apprentice, real estate inspector, and professional inspector.
My license calls me a professional... and so do I; and I try to act like it!
Of couse many of Bill's concerns are valid and not all of them are dealt with by our state licensing but a good many are.

There is no reason that we could not eventually become a Professional industry, but it would take a lot of people to take more pride in what we do rather than just using it to make some fast money as so-called educators and self-appointed associations.

It sounds like Texas is at least trying to do what's right.

Bill Mullen

Raymond Wand

10-17-2011, 05:07 AM

There is no reason that we could not eventually become a Professional industry, but it would take a lot of people to take more pride in what we do rather than just using it to make some fast money as so-called educators and self-appointed associations.

It sounds like Texas is at least trying to do what's right.

Bill Mullen

Strange indeed, I guess that is why the president of one new upstart association in Canada is also president of an inspection school, and another is chair of a inspection supplies company, I won't even comment on the "self-appointed associations" comment, because that is exactly how the association who looks after national certification in Canada got started.

Maybe, just maybe putting what look like major conflicts at the top aside would help draw together those inspectors who are skeptical about standardization by those who have much to gain financially.

Thomas McKay

10-17-2011, 06:09 AM

As an ASHI Certified Home Inspector I consider myself a professional, can't speak for some others. :)

Rick Ramirez

10-17-2011, 10:24 AM

Profession!

bobhaley

10-17-2011, 05:30 PM

As an ASHI Certified Home Inspector I consider myself a professional, can't speak for some others. :)

Thomas --I see that you consider yourself as a professional. How do you think your income compares with other professionals ie. Dr's, Attorney's,CPA's,or even Real Estate Professionals??
I am also ASHI cerified ACI ,but don't consider my income as even coming close to these other professionals.d

Rick Ramirez

10-18-2011, 05:25 AM

Professional doesn't meant you get to make more money. But you can still be a professional. Note: in this economy I know plenty out of work lawyers, engineers, teachers, hitman, etc..

Ted Menelly

10-18-2011, 03:36 PM

Professional doesn't meant you get to make more money. But you can still be a professional. Note: in this economy I know plenty out of work lawyers, engineers, teachers, hitman, etc..

The hit men are out of work? Darn, what is this world coming to. You think out of all of the the good he could do ;)

Thomas McKay

10-18-2011, 04:29 PM

Bob Haley:

Speak for your self, I have been in this business for 18 years and am still enthusiastic every day, what can you that is so different every day? Home inspection is a challenge if you equate it to money you are lost; think about the stress that all thoes other professionals have, we got it good! ;)

Rick Ramirez

10-18-2011, 05:21 PM

As Tom said, HI is a good place to be. Most HI I have met are good hard working peps. Keep it straight and honest you will do well.

James Duffin

10-18-2011, 05:29 PM

If you do it right it's a trade....if you don;t it is a profession. How many professions break out a shovel when they go to work?

Jerry Peck

10-18-2011, 05:47 PM

If you do it right it's a trade....if you don;t it is a profession. How many professions break out a shovel when they go to work?

Engineers.

I know many engineers who will do that when they need to find out what is down there.

Yes, I also know many engineers who haven't held a tool in their hands in a very long time.

Let's see ... dentists pick up and use drills all the time ... doctors pick up and whack knees with little hammers all the time ... and that is just a sampling of tools with names you would recognize, EVERY PROFESSIONAL uses the TOOLS of their profession.

Then there are professional firefighters ... professional police officers ... the list of professionals who get down and dirty when needed is really quite long.

Stephen G

10-18-2011, 06:47 PM

I was a professional soldier for 27 years (no pay in that). Lots of digging.

To trade (work) in ones profession: Home Inspection

I am a professional tradesman.

If you call yourself a professional, people have their perception on what to expect. Money has nothing to do with it. Its about deportment and conduct. Like calling yourself an expert. You have to stand up to that scrutiny. Its not an easy task. We all work at it. Its a tenant we must observe.
Just by coming to this board demonstrates professionalism.

back to the hockey game...

sdg

Engineers.

I know many engineers who will do that when they need to find out what is down there.

Yes, I also know many engineers who haven't held a tool in their hands in a very long time.

Let's see ... dentists pick up and use drills all the time ... doctors pick up and whack knees with little hammers all the time ... and that is just a sampling of tools with names you would recognize, EVERY PROFESSIONAL uses the TOOLS of their profession.

Then there are professional firefighters ... professional police officers ... the list of professionals who get down and dirty when needed is really quite long.

Robert Schenck

10-19-2011, 08:32 AM

Hmmm - interesting topic. I'll chime in and call it a Trafession !! :p

Joseph Peake

10-21-2011, 05:37 AM

My vote - Home Inspection is a Profession. We (with some noteable exceptions) are "professionals" - noun. We're selling our "professional opinion" and are perceived by Clients as deserving of a high degree of confidence in our professional opinions.

Only skimmed this thread; there are a lot interesting points of view.

How 'bout "building scientist"? We would expect an experienced inspector certainly has extensive knowledge of building science.

"Professional", when used as an adjective, ie "professional electrician", to me, means that the electrician has demonstrated his proficiency and conducts himself in a way that elevates him above the crowd.

However, if a person makes a living at a particular task, he's frequently considered to be a "professional" in that field. I made $ as a cab driver for a brief period so I could get to learn the layout of the area as I was preparing to enter the home inspection field. I kept the cleanest cab in the fleet and tried my level best to offer top flight service. For that reason, and to this day, I consider myself to be a "professional cab driver".

Philip's comment regarding tradesmen is right on! I learn from them at every opportunity and hold professional tradesmen in very high regard. They are a critical part of my team. I need them and seek their counsel regularly.

In conclusion, "professional" carries with it a lot of nuances and subtleties; he definition of the word can only be determined by the context in which it is used and is subjective.

Hank Spinnler

10-21-2011, 08:26 AM

I consider myself to be a professional inspector and demonstrate it in all aspects of operating my business. Which brings up another point. I own and operate a small business. I am also a professional businessman.

Darrel Hood

10-22-2011, 05:45 AM

I am curious. What is the value of the distinction? It seems to me the value is in the perception that clients have, not in the perception we have.

Bob Elliott

10-23-2011, 12:49 AM

I am curious. What is the value of the distinction? It seems to me the value is in the perception that clients have, not in the perception we have.

The perception you have of yourself is the exact perception others will have of you.

Value = $$$

You want to be the a--s crack Plumber or the guy in the suit?

Darrel Hood

10-23-2011, 06:01 AM

Bob Elliott

10-23-2011, 11:22 AM

"You want to be the a--s crack Plumber or the guy in the suit?"

I want to be the honest businessman who uses his experience, knowledge and skill to provide value to customers and a good standard of living for my family. I know plenty of tradesmen and professionals who share this set of objectives. Some of them are plumbers.

Keep that mentality and you are a contributor to clients that look at us as a trade where price shopping is more of a factor in selection than knowledge.

Sorry you do not get it.

Darrel Hood

10-23-2011, 11:43 AM

Help me get it. Which part of my prior statement was problematic? Should I not want to be honest? Shouldn't I want to provide value? Shouldn't I wish to provide a good standard of living for my family?

James Duffin

10-23-2011, 01:06 PM

The perception you have of yourself is the exact perception others will have of you.

Value = $$$

You want to be the a--s crack Plumber or the guy in the suit?

You wear a suit when you do inspections?

Raymond Wand

10-23-2011, 01:37 PM

Darrel wrote in part:

I want to be the honest businessman who uses his experience, knowledge and skill to provide value to customers and a good standard of living for my family. I know plenty of tradesmen and professionals who share this set of objectives. Some of them are plumbers.

And there are many professionals and tradesmen who don't.

Darrel, I think you have a fresh look and take on things. At the end of the day its your reputation as a person plying knowledge that is sound and respected that will win you esteem. Not semantics on titles.

Continued success.

James Duffin

10-23-2011, 03:22 PM

The day before I did my first home inspection I wired the controls on a boiler for a commercial building. I guess the day I did my first inspection made me a whole new person. I knew I felt different and did not know why until now. I made $3000 wiring the boiler controls and $350 for the home inspection. I still do both so I guess one day I am a butt crack showing low life and the next day I am a suit wearing professional.

Bob Elliott

10-23-2011, 04:18 PM

Most Inspectors come from the trades and unfortunately never get out of that mindset.

Before you got paid for your labor and now you get paid for your brain.

Goofy jokes asking if I Inspect in a suit simply show the lack of brain power in some that are not smart enough to understand the metaphor.

I leave this thread knowing the smart newbies will get it while the rest......well they may not be here very long.

Those guys can wear the Bib overalls and pretend to be Holmes while collecting $199 a home as proud low bidder.

Ken Rowe

10-23-2011, 09:12 PM

Definition of PROFESSIONAL

1
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profession) b : engaged in one of the learned professions (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professions) c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace

2
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional#) return <professional football>

3
: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

So I guess the answer is "It depends". From the definition I can see how some home inspectors are not "professional" and some are. I guess it's all in the way you see yourself and how you conduct your business. Personally, I'm a professional home inspector.

Darrel Hood

10-24-2011, 06:32 AM

Chris Skoczylas

10-24-2011, 07:07 AM

When I first set up my HI business, the para-legal I used told me she couldn't find Home Inspector in any of the IRS listings. I told her to look under Professional, she laughed and said that that was for doctors and lawyers. I told her to humor me and check. Boy, was she surprized. The IRS considers HI's as professionals.

Kevin O'Hornett

10-24-2011, 07:45 AM

Apologies in advance for the length of this post, but the question is one which I posed to two attorneys and the following is a synopsis of their answers.

Many home inspectors have a liability limitation clause in their home inspection contracts which limits their liability to a specific amount – often the fee charged for the inspection. A state which allows contractual limitations on liability may not allow such limitations where the individual performing work or providing a service is regulated by the state, particularly if the state views such individuals as “professionals.”

The issue of referring to oneself as a professional or one’s occupation as a “profession” is important because professionals have independent duties which may make the economic loss rule inapplicable. The liability limitation places a limitation on recovery regardless of the legal theory upon which recovery may be sought, i.e., contract or negligence. The issue of the use of the term professional might also important because licensed professionals are typically unable to limit their liability as a matter of public policy (otherwise doctors, CPAs, architects, engineers, and lawyers could take undue advantage of their clientele).

Whether or not a specific state which regulates home inspectors also views them as professionals may not be determinable until an inspection company’s contractual limitation on liability is challenged by a plaintiff’s attorney, is upheld or denied by a lower court, or an appellate court makes a ruling regarding such a limitation on liability.

Regardless of whether or not a state regulates home inspectors, inspectors should be aware that referring to themselves as professionals or as professional home inspectors or referring to their work as a profession may be viewed by a plaintiff’s attorney as sufficient reason to argue that a limitation on liability is unenforceable or by a court as a sufficient reason to rule that the limitation on liability clause of an inspection contract held unenforceable and struck from an inspection contract, thereby potentially leaving an inspection company open to much higher or even open-ended liability.

Professionals work for clients while others provide goods or services to customers. The primary difference between a customer and a client is that a protective, ongoing business relationship is formed with a client, but not necessarily with a customer. A “client” is someone who depends on the protection of another. The nature of the relationship between home inspectors and those who engage their services is neither an ongoing one nor one in which inspectors are protecting the individuals who engage their services.

Home inspectors are not parties to the contracts between real estate buyers and real estate agents, between home sellers and real estate agents, or between home buyers and home sellers. Their function is not to protect home buyers or anyone else from anyone or anything. Their function is to examine a home’s readily accessible systems and components for adverse conditions and to provide their customer with a written report of their findings along with implications of adverse conditions and recommendations to have appropriate qualified individuals correct or further evaluate such conditions. The mere fact that an increased potential for personal injury may be among the multiple implications of an adverse condition does not mean that the function of home inspectors is the performance of “safety inspections.”

When home inspectors or home inspection trade associations directly or indirectly imply that one of the functions of a home inspector is to “protect” anyone from anything or anyone, the potential liability of home inspectors rises.

Finally, avoiding using the term practice when referring to the work of home inspection as in the practice of home inspection is important because the term practice refers to the exercise or pursuit of a profession.

We are all aware that Murphy’s Law is inevitable. Ask yourself if you want to be the test case, if you want to face a plaintiff’s attorney who argues before a court that your use of the term client, your reference to yourself as a professional, or to your work as a profession or a practice constitutes grounds for setting aside your limitation on liability.

These may seem like minor or unimportant points. They are not. A court’s application of the law often comes down to such fine distinctions. Keep in mind that there can be costs for proving a point or for being right. While an inspection company’s attorney may be able to successfully argue that the use of such terms isn’t sufficient grounds for striking a limitation on liability clause form the inspection contract, that attorney will charge for the time spent preparing for and making such an argument. It only makes sense to minimize risk by avoiding the use of these terms in the first place so that plaintiffs’ attorneys cannot hang their hats on them later.

Whether a home inspector likes or dislike the legal aspects of their work is immaterial – they are an ever-present reality in business. As the great American Olympian, Jackie Joyner-Kersee, observed, “It is always better to look ahead and prepare than to look back and regret.” Therefore, home inspectors would be well-advised and are strongly urged to consult with their legal advisors regarding the points discussed here, their own contractual duty of care, and any duty of care they may have outside of their inspection contracts.

Bob Elliott

10-24-2011, 08:43 AM

Bob,
In an earlier post, I asked you to help me understand, but I assume you didn't see that request since you didn't attempt to help me. I make that assumption because a person with a professional outlook will go to great lengths to help a colleague.

I also must question the professionalism of a person who denigrates the entirety of an honorable trade in a public forum. Please, help me understand.

Thanks in advance,

Darrel I see you have over 200 posts here and I should assume that you do not need to ask such a basic question on a public forum if we are going there ,and I doubt clients care about you feeding your family.
They are trying to get a professional ,objective 3rd party view of the property they are about to purchase.

Tradesmen come in and do the physical work while a professional is one who examines the tradesmen s quality of work.
Tradesmen's mistakes are why we even exist.

Furthermore on embarrassments in a public forum "I guess you have not read many of the past threads here":rolleyes:

Fidel Gonzales

10-24-2011, 08:54 AM

How about "professional tradesmen", I think that covers it pretty good.

I agree with Scott, My vote - Home Inspection is a Profession

Russel Ray

10-24-2011, 08:09 PM

I've met some home inspectors who are anything but professional. In fact, Jerry, the college kid who serves me burgers at Jack in the Box, is more professional than them.

Professional is an attitude.

James Duffin

10-25-2011, 05:16 AM

Attitude is not knowledge. I know some people who use attitude to mask their lack of knowledge. I'll take a knowledgeable trades person over HI who has an attitude any day.

Also anyone can inspect since all they are doing is looking at something someone else has done. The lowly tradesman has to actually know how to do something....not just look at it. Of the NC state exams I took for my electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and HI license....the HI inspector exam was by far the easiest of the four to pass. I doubt very seriously many HI could pass any of the other three or even qualify to sit for the exam.

People can call themselves anything they want but a monkey in a suit is still a monkey.

Scott Patterson

10-25-2011, 05:58 AM

Call it whatever you want! It really makes no difference in the long run, it is what it is and you are what you are!

If you (as I do) consider yourself to be a professional, you act, dress, learn and treat everyone in a professional manner I would consider you to be a professional.

A name does not change anything, Guano is still Bat Chit!

Joseph Peake

10-25-2011, 06:14 AM

Kevin,
Thanks for the post - valuable information to consider.

James,
If I were buying a home, I'd seek out a professional home inspector, a generalist, then follow-up with professional tradesmen (specialists) or others as appropriate. In that you "do both", you can likely provide more valuable information to your Client on the topic of HVAC than most of us.

Hank touched on an interesting point - most of us operate our own businesses; therefore, assuming a certain level of competence and perfomance, we are professionals.

Overall, what Scott said.

Raymond Wand

10-25-2011, 07:24 AM

From the perspective of one Canadian provincial court.

¶ 20 While I suggest there are obvious limitations to what one can expect from home inspections of the type undertaken in this case, one also needs to be mindful of the responsibility which is taken on by the home inspector. Persons who hold themselves out to the community as professionals prepared to provide advice for a fee - accountants, lawyers, engineers, architects, physicians, and other professionals immediately come to mind - must know that in marketing and providing their services, they invite reliance upon their advice and, in doing so, they create a risk that their client will suffer harm if the professional falls short of the standard of care which reasonably may be expected of that category of professional in the particular circumstances, and their advice is wrong. Further any case law I have read and I read a lot of them - all frame home inspectors as 'professional(s)' as they are in the business of providing a service and advice.

Joseph Hagarty

10-25-2011, 09:06 AM

Call it whatever you want! It really makes no difference in the long run, it is what it is and you are what you are!

If you (as I do) consider yourself to be a professional, you act, dress, learn and treat everyone in a professional manner I would consider you to be a professional

Home Inspection is a Professional Practice...
We are not Tradesmen...

James Duffin

10-25-2011, 11:45 AM

Joseph Hagarty

10-25-2011, 12:04 PM

So trade-people are not professional but HI are? Then why do HI use the term "refer to licensed professionals" if there are none? There are only butt-crack tradesman. I have to say that is quite an outlook on the trades-people of which I am one and have been for over 35 years.

Exactly why I do not use that terminology.

Only Licensed Trades in PA are Architects and Engineers (PE)
Contractors are Registered....

There is no Testing, Training, Insurance requirement of General Contractors
I know, because I have a GC License in PA

But
Home Inspectors are required to have Training,
Continuing Education
E&O Insurance

And then defer findings
to Untrained, Unlicensed, Underinsured Contractors.....
by current PA Statute
go figure?

obvious ASHI had a hand in current legislation...
lol

James Duffin

10-25-2011, 01:52 PM

I have say that I have been spoiled by the NC rules and regulations..sorry to hear about PA. What good does it do to have an inspection in PA if any tom, dick, or harry can do the repairs?

Joseph Peake

10-26-2011, 04:04 AM

It's my understanding that residential contractors are to be licensed in PA, registered with the attorney general's office and insured.

In practice, it's like the wild west. As a practical matter, anyone with a hammer and a truck can ply their trade here and call themselves a "contractor" or "HI" with little/no intervention by the govt.

Recently, a local licensed contractor friend approached the municipality to report work by an unlicensed contractor. He was told that the municipality had no interest in enforcing the law due to budget constraints.

I'd venture a guess that many of my HI competitors are non-compliant with PA law, but I haven't expended time/effort being the HI Police. Our "Home Inspection Law" would be a good one IF IT WERE ENFORCED, but it isn't.

One day after I'd inspected a building with glaring electrical and other defects, a CO was issued by the municipality's "building code official"; I'm guessing that's because the seller was a politically connected businessman. As background, Luzerne County is likely to be among the most corrupt areas in the country, but it seems that we have a lot of competition. (as an aside, uhhh... where's the $535 million?). We now have two judges in federal prison for taking over a million $ in kickbacks to send kids to a "juvenile detention center" owned by a local corrupt businessman.

However, it's my personal belief that the market will (and should) ultimately determine who succeeds and who fails and I'd prefer no govt intervention to the selective intervention we have now. The "sheeneys" (local term for those who do substandard work) ultimately fail, but it takes time.

On the bright side, I'd place the quality of our buildings and inspections as equal to, or superior to, any I've seen in other areas of the country, despite govt intervention or lack thereof. Sort of like Darwin's Theory applied to construction/inspections - my conclusion, govt is ultimately irrelevant to quality and in the long run can only serve to drive up cost and interfere with the market.

Raymond Wand

07-07-2012, 05:35 AM

I have a problem with Certified Master Inspector designation, given the way it is structured, and set up, and the manner in which anyone can obtain one. And the fact several were given the designation gratis with no qualifying checks, let alone NG claiming he is a CMI!

Also the Cdn government does not endorse nor recommend use of CMI, the trademark is just that - a registration of a trademark only. Further the trademark Cert. Master Inspector is - DISCLAIMER TEXT: (http://www.cipo.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/en/wr00662e.html#disc)
The right to the exclusive use of the words CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is disclaimed apart from the trade-mark.

CANADIAN TRADE-MARK DATA: 1274564 - Canadian Trade-marks Database - Canadian Intellectual Property Office (http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/vwTrdmrk.do?lang=eng&status=OK&fileNumber=1274564&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=1)

Since I am a senior inspector for now over 20 years and having been a full member of OAHI and ASHI, I am not going to obtain a CMI designation due to concerns of a questionably marketed program, and the people who sit on its board, and the fact its patently false advertising.

It dismays me that so called professionals would overlook logical, ethical and a standard of care in choosing and signing on with such a designation which was admitted by its creator simply as a marketing tool.

Contrary to the repeated claims of the CMI marketing hype, no one has had their applications verified nor their affidavits, nor has anyone had a police background check done in Ontario. That is contrary to what is specifically being sold to inspectors who think CMI is something to behold.

It seems to me the inspection associations are too interested in protecting their turf and their nests and are not interested in protecting the public.

Associations made up of inspectors overseeing themselves is a farce given whats going on in Ontario.

It appears the associations are hell bent on pushing their questionable agendas to the government in order to establish their foot hold, and income streams from gullible members.

Raymond Wand

07-07-2012, 06:13 AM

Kevin,

From what I understand Alberta did not research into the background facts of CMI, they were told and took as facts what CMI was supposedly to be.

Also it has also been admitted by those that sat in on the licensing committee set up by the Alberta Government, that any input by the two or three associations at the table that advice/input from the professionals at the table were completely ignored in the final licencing act, and dependent on who one speaks to the licencing is a farce and is actually to restrictive and not necessarily what is best for the profession.

Kevin perhaps you could explain to me how the CMI board deals with complaints from members of the public?

As you also know I and others have been openly critical of the Nat. Cert. program and the issues that surfaced with it.

The industry in Canada at least in Ont. is more fractured now with competing designations and associations than it ever was.

What is required is the profession to have one voice, with a blend of both worlds as far as association requirements.

I know for a fact licensing is not on the radar for our provincial government and likely will not be for sometime into the foreseeable future.

Stats indicate contrary to others trying to promote otherwise that there is NOT a huge problem within the inspection profession.

Even the stats presented on the Nat. Cert. site indicate the problem has been over stated as well as BBB stats, and case law, given the number of home sale transactions each year in Canada.

Stephen G

07-07-2012, 12:52 PM

Anyone who did their inspection exams on-line and not proctored is not qualified anything. Regardless of association. They may be good inspectors, but, education without confirmation is a farce.

If you think that after two years in school (Humber College) and then another two in business I cant call myself professional then you most certainly drank Nicks kool aid...:(
Who certified you? A non partisan second body? Where you required to send all your CV into this second party for examination. Oh you mean qualified. Semantics eh.
I been a tradesman for over 30 years Lots of licenses and a Certified Engineering Technician, CERTIFIED. That means I had to send all my course reports and eduction into a non partisan second party for verification, namely the Institute for Engineering Technology Ontario (IETO). My association could do not that, it would most certainly be a conflict of interest for them to infer a "certified" moniker.

As for professional, if you got paid one dollar for doing your job your a professional, because thats what your business is and professional get paid, not the length of time doing it.:cool:

Raymond Wand

07-07-2012, 04:57 PM

I am no longer a member of any association.

I can't remember the last time a client inquired whether I was a member of an association, does that make me non professional?

No one cares if I am an RHI, or an Ashi Cert. Inspector, let alone the Nat. Cert. CMI ... At one time I thought they did.

The established associations in Ontario all have some explaining to do both to their members, and the public. How can we call ourselves professionals when we tolerate non professional governance?

Which association is leading by example?

Titles dreamt up solely for marketing purposes by a bunch of marketeers,
and to-line-pockets is in my view an affront to professionalism from the top on down.

Raymond Wand

07-08-2012, 04:09 AM

Deceptive Marketing?...Canadian Academy of Certified Home Inspectors.

Home Inspector Training in Canada (http://www.cachitraining.com/#!home/mainPage)

In a sea of fly-by-night inspectors you will stand out and reap the rewards of your success. The hurdle for inspectors is that all associations require hundreds of hours of previous inspections and have now teamed up with colleges to promote full time correspondence programs. These courses can cost thousands of dollars and take up to 3 years to complete.

FAQ
Home Inspector Training in Canada (http://www.cachitraining.com/#!faq/c214y)

This exactly what the 'profession' does not need.

Thanks Nachi for making 'fly-by-night' so meaningful at the very least I hope you certify the attendee with a certificate of training for Visual Flight Rules! :D

Raymond Wand

07-08-2012, 05:01 AM

Yes I would rather have colleges turning out inspectors. Their courses take longer than 40 hours and upon graduation you don't get a shingle to hang out you get a diploma.

The question you propose is moot. Mr. Holmes is not teaching the courses.

For any wannabe association such as Nachi to be promoting that a 40 hour course is sufficient is absolutely deceptive both to the the student and the public.

The other disconcerting info is the lack of any information as to who the teachers are or any contact names on the site.

Wannabe inspectors would be well advised to avoid these type course providers.

Stephen G

07-08-2012, 08:29 AM

My point has nothing to do with your association or mine. It has everything to do with perception. One of my clients, one, asked if I was with an association. Doesn't matter. Its education and proof that you are who you say you are. Raymond and many others dont need the the title, they are established and all of those question abuot how you cam to call yourself 'Home Inspector' have been answered.
Nick has my address...if he has a beef with my post....:)

You mean to say Raymond you are no longer a RHI?
It would not matter anyways you have the hours behind you and inspections.
Nick just responded to this on the InterNachi site.
As for CMI no one is lining the pockets from it.
It is a one time payment and you are done.
So what! great you have 2 years Humber and 2 years business so do most Professional HI's
As for Proctored Exams you are full of ****. I have been through many and see only one result. Those that come out forget all the stuff they learned in less than half a year and never now what they did wrong. The best way to learn is online and no Schooling could hold a candle stick against the education provided by Nachi.
And no Association has more Professional Inspectors.

Stephen G

07-08-2012, 08:41 AM

[quote=Kevin Wood;202435]
As for Proctored Exams you are full of ****. I have been through many and see only one result. Those that come out forget all the stuff they learned in less than half a year and never now what they did wrong. The best way to learn is online and no Schooling could hold a candle stick against the education provided by Nachi.
And no Association has more Professional Inspectors.[/quot

No I am not full of manure, and everyone here knows that. Why would writing an exam with an Invigilator reduce my intelligence after I write the exam. The purpose of a witness is to confirm that you wrote the exam without assistance, and that the person is competent enough to do that task without supervision.
You wrote these; any grade school exam; post secondary; driver license and road test; your trade tickets, and thru your reasoning we finished those tests and forgot everything.:confused:

What selling point is it to my client when I tell them we have more inspectors.

Darrel Hood

07-08-2012, 01:02 PM

The state says I am a professional, so I guess I is one. I still don't see any importance in the designation.

I was a professional pilot for 14 years. This included constant training (practical and theoretical, OJT and classroom), near constant testing (closed book) and check rides and professional rules of ethics. As a professional HI I am required to take only two classes per year, each with an open book test and I have never experienced the equivalent of a check ride. In fact, every test I took during the licensing training, for the license and for the ICC certs has been open book. Therefore, in terms of academic accomplishment and performance evaluations HI is a much less difficult profession to enter and maintain than being a professional pilot.

I have known butt crack personalities in both the professions and the trades. However, none of the professionals I have ever respected would have stereotyped a trade with such snobbish characterizations.

Raymond Wand

07-08-2012, 04:35 PM

A view of What Are Professional Services are viewed by the courts, lawyers and insurers.

What Are Professional Services? (http://www.sacslaw.com/CM/Articles/Articles18.asp)

Jerry Martin

07-09-2012, 01:21 AM

Professional gets paid.
Amature does not get paid.

John Kogel

07-09-2012, 07:57 AM

[quote=Stephen G;202470]

Stephen you might not be aware but I taught the CARSON DUNLOP so I know what is required along with the EXAMS. I still have them all and found they are joke compared to the knowledge InterNachi has to offer and the way they are taught.
I do agree that someone can cheat easily on the EXAMS for Nachi but he most likely will not last long in the field of inspection so there really is no threat.Kevin, since you are in Ontario, you may not know much about CAHPI(BC), but since you have proclaimed superiority because you are a fee-paying interNACHI member, let me enlighten you.

Anyone can cheat the online exam, as you admit. Anyone can lie about their past experience, and anyone can claim to have completed 1000 paid inspections and get their CMI sticker. Anybody.

CAHPI(BC) inspectors have written proctored exams, no cheating. New associates have performed mock test inspections with peer review. Don't make me describe it, look it up TIPR. :D Continuing education is mandatory, no cheating there either.

CAHPI(BC) is the only association in the world that has it's own E+O insurance policy funded by members. We can afford to do this because members are trained and tested like any professional association should.

Garry Blankenship

07-09-2012, 08:39 AM

Semantics; good fodder for debate and growing a bit. Because of my experience in the construction "trades" and comparing a trade specific electrician or carpenter to a generalist like a home inspector - - - so profession. Then I went to Webster. Of the 22 definitions for trade; definition # 4 said "any occupation pursued as a business or livelyhood" - - - so trade. Webster's definition of a profession is also totally consistent with inspecting - - - sooo final answer - - - BOTH

John Kogel

07-10-2012, 08:58 AM

I have a problem with Certified Master Inspector designation, given the way it is structured, and set up, and the manner in which anyone can obtain one. And the fact several were given the designation gratis with no qualifying checks, let alone NG claiming he is a CMI!

For those in CANADA here is something to think about. I feel strongly that those who have fulfilled what is required as Certified Master Inspectors give them the full permission to be considered a PROFESSIONAL. for those that are learning you cannot achieve this status until after 3 years in the business. I don't agree that someone can call themselves CERTIFIED after a one week course even though many do.

Anybody can claim to have done 1000 inspections and get the CMI sticker.

Very true but they would not last the 3 years in the business and would not get a signed Notary of Public. Somehow that is not very reassuring. The client wants a professional with valid credentials right now, not 3 years from now.
As the imposters drop out of the business, are new members being signed up all the time? You bet they are.

They are what your grandma would have called the rotten apples. Your association and your certification is only as good as your lowest qualified members, which are dragging the rest of you down to their level, bottom of the barrel.

I will also point out there is not a single CAPHI inspector in my area. They all went out of business.CAHPI Ontario has had some internal problems, as Raymond knows very well. The association must be run as a non-profit organization, and that means committed volunteers are needed. Here in BC we are working to raise the bar to the highest possible level, to set an example for professionalism in this country.

You ticked me off saying your beloved for profit association, with no checks or balances in place to weed out the unsavory elements, is the best we can do.

That, as somebody said above, is BS.

Claude Lawrenson

07-10-2012, 06:02 PM

So which association spearheaded this program?

Actually from a professional educators POV the curriculum appears "reasonably sufficient" and well rounded. It seems to be a blend of construction techniques along with home inspection education, and a bit of "general education".

Seems great for 2nd career candidates, or those looking for a blend of the two disciplines - just like what you see on the show!

However, I personally have no FACTS on the quality of the graduates. That remains to be proven. Time will tell.....

Claude Lawrenson

07-10-2012, 06:09 PM

What does it take to get a signed affidavit from a notary?

I've had several notarized documents signed by lawyers selected at random out of the yellow pages. They did not know me or my business at all!

My response to my question - Payment for the service and swearing an oath that the facts are true. Almost as good as the paper it's written on!

Jerry Peck

07-10-2012, 07:47 PM

Notary of the Public is not the same.

Different how?

They are only attesting to the fact that they know *who* *signed* the document (whatever the document is or what it says is inconsequential to them).

John Kogel

07-10-2012, 08:18 PM

Hello Claude. Please edit your last post, #89. That quote was posted by Kevin Wood, not me.

If you can lie to your clients, you can also lie to a Notary.

Raymond Wand

07-11-2012, 04:01 AM

An affidavit is a document sworn under oath to be true 'to the best of his (or her) knowledge'. Anyone who swears that the contents of an affidavit are true knowing that any part is untrue is guilty of perjury.

I suspect there are instances of abuse given who set up this CMI and how its structured. No one has been audited for truthfulness as to what they claimed on their affidavit as per the CMI requirements.

CMI is nothing but a money grab for a false and misleading certification just like all the others offered by Nacho.

Criminal Code of Canada

PART IV: OFFENCES AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION OF LAW AND JUSTICE

Misleading Justice
Perjury
131. (1) Subject to subsection (3), every one commits perjury who, with intent to mislead, makes before a person who is authorized by law to permit it to be made before him a false statement under oath or solemn affirmation, by affidavit, solemn declaration or deposition or orally, knowing that the statement is false.

Video links, etc.
(1.1) Subject to subsection (3), every person who gives evidence under subsection 46(2) of the Canada Evidence Act, or gives evidence or a statement pursuant to an order made under section 22.2 of the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act, commits perjury who, with intent to mislead, makes a false statement knowing that it is false, whether or not the false statement was made under oath or solemn affirmation in accordance with subsection (1), so long as the false statement was made in accordance with any formalities required by the law of the place outside Canada in which the person is virtually present or heard.

Idem
(2) Subsection (1) applies, whether or not a statement referred to in that subsection is made in a judicial proceeding.

Application
(3) Subsections (1) and (1.1) do not apply to a statement referred to in either of those subsections that is made by a person who is not specially permitted, authorized or required by law to make that statement.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 131; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 17; 1999, c. 18, s. 92.