What's wrong with these shingles?

[JB Thompson]

Today's inspection:

From the ground and roof, sections of shingles do not appear to be laying down well. Some waviness going on too.

Under one shingle, I found a nail that wasn't fully seated AND the head was slightly bent as if the gun was discharging a few feet of coil nails poorly. This would account for the long runs of lifted shingles, but I wanted a second (and 40th) opinion from you guys. :D

Thanks
Bruce

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

How many layers? Looks like might be a poorly started/lined up overlay project.

[JB Thompson]

How many layers? Looks like might be a poorly started/lined up overlay project.

Just one layer

[Gunnar Alquist]

Just one layer

JB,

I would have bet it was over a previous layer of comp or even wood shake. That is pretty weird.

Sorry, I can't help.

[chris mcintyre]

Any pictures from the attic?

[Jerry Peck]

Am I having a mental fart or aren't you supposed to pull the cut valley back 2" from the center of the valley to the high side??? That valley looks to be pulled back 6" to the low side.

The wrinkles possibly from very poorly laid and wrinkled 30 pound felt?

I know you said it was one layer, but it sure looks like a recover instead a reroof. How old is the roof, how old is the house?

[JB Thompson]

Am I having a mental fart or aren't you supposed to pull the cut valley back 2" from the center of the valley to the high side??? That valley looks to be pulled back 6" to the low side.

The wrinkles possibly from very poorly laid and wrinkled 30 pound felt?

I know you said it was one layer, but it sure looks like a recover instead a reroof. How old is the roof, how old is the house?

It's possible, but as I said the nail head bent and this created a small hump. It exaggerated the lift of the shingle above it. I was wondering about the gun malfunction.

The roof is approx. 1 year old. The house is a 1998 model.

Most of the decking was not visible due to radiant barrier stapled to the bottom of the rafters. Of the decking that was visible, I didn't see any issues.

[Jim Luttrall]

Today's inspection:

From the ground and roof, sections of shingles do not appear to be laying down well. Some waviness going on too.

Under one shingle, I found a nail that wasn't fully seated AND the head was slightly bent as if the gun was discharging a few feet of coil nails poorly. This would account for the long runs of lifted shingles, but I wanted a second (and 40th) opinion from you guys. :D

Thanks
Bruce
My bet is the underlayment was weathered and maybe wet when the shingles were applied causing the felt to wrinkle and lift the shingles from the back side. Of course and improper nails will effect the individual shingle tabs directly above the under driven nail but I doubt that would have the wide spread effect seen in your photos. The second pic shows a horizontal raised area several shingles tall located in the bottom third and another about two thirds up the photo that would just about coincide with the width of felt.
Were the shingle tabs adhered for the most part?

[Nick Ostrowski]

That roof sucks.

[JB Thompson]

Were the shingle tabs adhered for the most part?

Yes, I tried to lift several of them to understand why this was occurring. Not sure if the photo shows it well, but there would be 2-3 courses of lifted shingles and then several courses of shingles laying flat.

[Jim Luttrall]

Yes, I tried to lift several of them to understand why this was occurring. Not sure if the photo shows it well, but there would be 2-3 courses of lifted shingles and then several courses of shingles laying flat.

I'm picturing old weathered felt that was covered over with new felt or possibly just felt that was overlapped more than the standard few inches that was weathered enough to not lay flat even when the shingles were nailed down. Kind of looks like a quilt where the nails have "stitched" the padding down but it is still "fluffy" everywhere except at the nailing strip.

[Jim Luttrall]

Yes, I tried to lift several of them to understand why this was occurring. Not sure if the photo shows it well, but there would be 2-3 courses of lifted shingles and then several courses of shingles laying flat.
Yeah, that is what I am seeing in the photos. The middle of each shingle tab is humped up higher than the top and bottom.
Wonder what it would do in a hail storm...?

[JB Thompson]

I'm picturing old weathered felt that was covered over with new felt or possibly just felt that was overlapped more than the standard few inches that was weathered enough to not lay flat even when the shingles were nailed down. Kind of looks like a quilt where the nails have "stitched" the padding down but it is still "fluffy" everywhere except at the nailing strip.

Nice analogy. :)

I'm trying to decide how to write it up. I think it looks bad and though I can't tell if the shingles were 20 yr, they looked cheap.

A friend of mine is buying this house and hired me. I know we can get a roofer out there to look at it.

[JB Thompson]

Yeah, that is what I am seeing in the photos. The middle of each shingle tab is humped up higher than the top and bottom.
Wonder what it would do in a hail storm...?

trampoline effect...the hailstones would just bounce off :D

[Jim Luttrall]

trampoline effect...the hailstones would just bounce off :D

Hey, you might want to check out a patent on that:D

[JB Thompson]

Am I having a mental fart or aren't you supposed to pull the cut valley back 2" from the center of the valley to the high side??? That valley looks to be pulled back 6" to the low side.

I think you're right. I didn't catch that the first time (I guess I was occupied with the wavy surf up there) Glad I took photos.

[JB Thompson]

"The roof is approx. 1 year old. The house is a 1998 model."
So why do you re-roof a 1998 home in 2009?
I am guessing the original singles weren't installed correctly and they added another layer but cut back at the rakes and eaves so it looks like 1 layer.

Hail storm

[Brandon Whitmore]

Maybe the hail is stuck between the 2 layers of shingles. That would explain the weird look......:D

[John Kogel]

I don't think the nails alone are to blame, although loose nailing could be part of it. There is definitely a layer of something under those shingles. I vote with Fritz Kelly, they may have cut back the edges so it looks like one layer at the edges, then roofed over the old shingles.
The valley is cut wrong, as JP pointed out.

A poorly adjusted nail gun gives the results shown in these pics. These pics are from the top of my ladder, too steep and too crappy to walk something like this.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Assuming all that you have subsequently shared is true, i.e. tearoff of old shingles one year ago, unknown if tear off included removal of old felt and old applied flashing/ice-water sheild membrane(s), and radiant barrier stapled up to underside of deck (most but not all) unknown when same was applied.

Deep eave overhang? Does the first area of lifted shingles line-up with the outside wall, or a above (old ice/water sheild membrane holding moisture)? What is the decking material? How complete was the tear-off, do we know the felt was removed? were the valleys re-flashed? When was the radiant installed? Was the MC of the decking measured/checked inside and outside before re-roofing? Was the roof protected from rainfall during the project or was there a weather interuption? Was the project done during or just before a cold spell?

I'd guess that deck and possibly (old?) felt was saturated at the time of the roofing project, and that the radiant barrier is further trapping liquid water. Effects of sun futher "steaming" roof, deck and felt not dry adhesive strips never fully sealed, or later gave way as weakest during dog days this season as it became warm.

May be deck was wetted/damaged after effects of hail damage, or ongoing process due to moisture migration from home/ineffective venting since application of radiant barrier (which may be semi permiable to vapor but retaining of liquid water). Perhaps since the valley is wrong, there may be other areas as well that are allowing infiltration and the radiant barrier is holding/retaining rain water leaks as well.

Any sense of moisture under the unadhered tabs? Moisture Content readings where the barrier was incomplete? Thermal imaging might reveal something.

Local rep from shingle manufacturer could be invited to make a visit. Where is the roofer who did this work?

[Frank Bombardiere]

That looks like either poor roof over or plank sheathing that is cupping. Roof may have been installed during cold wet weather. The sheathing dried and shrunk causing waviness and the shingles did not seal properly due to getting dirt under them before getting warm enough to seal down. Poor nailing combined with above issues could cause it to do that. I would have my friend get another roofer for a second opinion and then the seller could take your opinion and the roofers to pressure the installer to replace it.

[JB Thompson]

House built 1998

New roof: 2009 (per disclosure)
Decking: OSB
No moisture or other indications of leaking roof from viewing insulation, decking, drywall, etc...
I physically observed only one layer of roofing material (but I didn't check in multiple locations)
Lifted shingles were random with respect to outside walls
I wrote it up along with the valley cuts and told him to get a different roofer out there for an opinion.

My friend even commented that his own Realtor said, "what's wrong with that roof??"

Sincerely,
Capt. Obvious:D

[Wayne Schultz]

I would say that not only is the sub layers a factor. Heat and wind can add to that. Living in a hot windy desert area, I've seen this before. In this area tile roofs are favored. When the tempatures rise to over 100 and the winds pick up. And they usually do, it will cause shingles to flap like sheets of paper. And shorten the life of the shingles by half. So if your area is windy that may be one of the factors that is affecting the roof.

[Randy Aldering]

Improperly installed - rip it off and start over again. And do it right this time. Hopefully the seller has some kind of warranty on the roof, and the roofer is still in business.

[JB Thompson]

"The roof is approx. 1 year old. The house is a 1998 model."
So why do you re-roof a 1998 home in 2009?
I am guessing the original singles weren't installed correctly and they added another layer but cut back at the rakes and eaves so it looks like 1 layer.

We have a winner.

Apparently the roofer cut back the singles so that when the inspector inspected (me), the second layer wouldn't be visible.

These were 20 yrs shingles installed over a 30 yr dimensional shingle. Apparently the dishonest roofer took the insurance money and did a sorry job.

Thanks for all of the help and answers

[Mike Schulz]

Roofer wasn't trying to hide anything. It is normal procedure to cut back the rakes and eaves for roof over. They just didn't start correctly so the top of the shingles butt to the bottom of the old shingles for a flat finish. This is accomplished by cutting back the third row face along the eave and measuring the distance between your first course and fourth course and split the reveal between the first two courses.

They did do a sloppy job by not knowing how to do a roof over but they where not hiding or scamming anyone. I'm sure they gave the owner two options, tear off or roof over and they chose the latter.

[Joao Vieira]

Jerry,
it depends on the manufacturer detail. Sometimes the the roofer does not have to leave the metal showing at the valleys if the detail shows otherwise. I have seen both ways approved by the architect. If they know what they are doing or not, that is another question.
For an existing house I would not write that down as a hot item but as a general observation.