Splice to A/C

[Tom Rees]

Junction box at rear of house, used to be old main service and meter. Installed new main panel, meter and main breakers at new garage. They spliced together the service wires which run to interior panel and back out to new main panel. Small wires at splice are to A/C-fused service disconnect (black box to right). Question 1- is the splice allowed because there are different sized wires. Question 2- There is no breaker for A/C just the fused service disconnect, is this allowed. The homeowner (who did the wiring with friend) claims that because the disconnect is fused it is protected. I would appreciate any feedback. Thank You.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

No, not right.

Between new service entrance and old interior panel needs to be a "four wire" 120/240V circuits, including the newly tapped AC circuit. Neutral (grounded conductor) and grounds (grounding conductor) segregated. Neither Feeder nor Condensor tap have ecg.

Plastic conduit, locknut nut and box not grounding conductor.

No bare neturals allowed after ("downstream") of service equipment.

Circuit protection can be fused or circuit breaker - the labeling on the AC compressor will say if fused and/or circuit breaker is permissible.

Condensation/drainage/no drip loop from conduit body side entrance to box. Bending raduis too tight in conduit body. Conduit above rusting. No closure. Suspect repurpose of old masthead.

Rusting conduit above, new metalic conduit below alternate (only) path to earth via bare neutral-conduit-conduit body-box-conduit-earth. Nice lightening rod, unacceptable connection to electrical system and alternate path to ground in lieu of ecg. A/C improperly bonded.

[Tom Rees]

H.G. I am not an electrician, the only way I learn is by asking questions even if they may make me look dumb. What is ecg.? I assume it is something to do with grounding but I am not sure. Thanks for your feedback.

[Jim Port]

Do you have an overall picture of this setup?

HG, that is a factory made LB type fitting listed by UL. Why would you say the bend radius is too tight?

[Jerry Peck]

HG, that is a factory made LB type fitting listed by UL.

Actually ;) that is an SLB.


Why would you say the bend radius is too tight?

Note because of the SLB but because bend radius on some of the conductors.

[Jerry Peck]

As that was the original meter can, those are service entrance conductors in there ... unless this is fed from the new service, in which case these all become feeders, and more problems are created by that.

Questions for clarification:
1) The conductors coming up from the bottom go to/come from where?
2) The conductors coming down from above go to/come from where?
3) The conductors going out the side obviously go to the a/c disconnect and are tapped from the service entrance conductors.

[Tom Rees]

Jerry, The conductors coming up from the bottom come from the new main service panel at garage. They put in new service at garage with main panel and breaker (main disconnect). The conductors going out the top go to the distribution panel in mechanical closet.

[Roger Frazee]

Hi Tom

I would also like to know the answers to Jerrys questions.

However, if the was the old location of the dwelling service equipment and meter ... then is the a/c tapped in before the new meter?

Also those are polaris connectors and are not rated for more than one conductor per lug.

[Jim Port]

OK, now that becomes more clear. Since this is a feeder to an attached structure it should have been a 4 wire feeder, not the two hots and a ground as was installed. I also do not see a ground to the enclosure.

The Polaris connector should be one wire per hole, not the two into one.

ECG should have been EGC, equipment grounding conductor.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, The conductors coming up from the bottom come from the new main service panel at garage. They put in new service at garage with main panel and breaker (main disconnect). The conductors going out the top go to the distribution panel in mechanical closet.

Then, unless the metal conduit coming up from the bottom is continuous all the way to the new service equipment and is being used as the grounding path, ... it is ALL screwed up.

If that metal conduit is used for the grounding path, then it is ... only PARTIALLY screwed up.

And there is not as much difference between "all" and "partially" as you might think. ;) I.e., it is "mostly" screwed up anyway, the metal conduit just makes it "all" or not.

[Tom Rees]

Roger, The a/c is tapped in after the new main panel and before the old interior distribution panel.

[Roger Frazee]

I can't find better words to explain what you have there than what Jerry just said.

I'm also pretty sure the junction box used is going to be too small to meet code and will violate NEC 314.28(A)(2)

Here are some of the things wrong without considering the means used for equipment grounding.

Most of these HG touched on in his reply ... he speaks with a heavy accent and it takes awhile to catch on....:)

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Tom,

Sorry took me so long to get back. Keyboard took a spill this morning and my "g" button is sticking. THought when I edited the post (got hung up for like 20 mins wouldn't update) I corrected both typos (due to sticking "g" button) to read EGC as in Equipment GroundING Conductor or "ground".

There are two "grounding" systems - one is the GEC which is the "grounding electrode" (grounding "rods", "made electrodes" and water service pipe, if applicable, etc.) system which is "bonded" to the service panel at the groundED ("neutral") conductor from the service entrance - the other is the equipment bonding system - or "grounds" or EGCs that we bond or ground the electrical system (and equipment) to.

As you know the service from the power company is two "hots" (ungrounded conductors) and a "neutral" (groundED conductor). Those are brought to the service panel where the "neutral" is bonded to the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC - to the Electrode(s)) and from there to the EGC equipment Grounding Conductor(S).

It is common in the US to have "neutrals" (grounded conductors) and "grounds" (equipment grounding conductors) on the same terminal bars in SERVICE EQUIPMENT ONLY. Any thing "downstream" from that SERVICE EQUIPMENT should have isolation/separation between the grounded conductors ("neutrals") and the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs or "grounds"). This has been the case with 120V circuits since the 60s (when "grounds" were being required), and for 120/240V circuits since the 80s and 240V circuits since the 90s.

As I said originally, both the feeder circuit and the tap are required to have equipment grounding conductors. The Long length and location of the feeder circuit require the grounded conductor (neutral) be covered/insulated. Although we call this type of 120/240V circuit a "four wire" type - it doesn't necessarily have to be "four wires". There are permitted ways to use an electrically continuous bonded pathway (such as EMT) as the "Equipment Grounding Conductor" or "ground(s). As pointed out that is not the case here.

Although a tap to A/C is permitted, as others have indicated the type of splice connector used here is not listed for two different size conductors in one terminal.

Therefore as previously indicated both the feeder and its tap to A/C are not correct due to them not having an electrically continuous grounding path to the service panel. Others have further indicated that the splice connector(s) used for the tap are an unlisted unapproved use of that particular equipment. As indicated previously tap circuit protection with fuse or circut breaker is permitted, appropriateness to your particular A/C condensor would have to be confirmed via the plate on the condensor (some require fused protection, some require circuit breaker, some can have either) as to what is required by the equipment manufacturer as the last protection prior to the equipment.

Hope that clears things up. Sorry for the typo/sticky keyboard key transposition x2 on the EGC.

P.S. perhaps I should explain "feeder circuit". The circuit which is spliced and tapped in the pictured and described box is "downstream" of the service equipment (service entrance/main breaker/main disconnect). It is being "fed" electricity from the service equipment, there for it is a sub-feeder circuit or a feeder circuit. The A/C circuit is being "tapped" off the "feeder circuit". The feeder circuit is "feeding" the panel in the house (also "known" as a "sub-(feeder) panel" or "sub-panel". This panel must be fed by two "hots" (ungrounded conductors), a "neutral" (groundED conductor) and in this case it must be a covered/insulated one (so as not to contact the equipment grounding conductor (which can be bonded box, electrically continuous EMT (metalic conduit) and create an alternate path to "ground", and a "ground" (Equipment GroundING Conductor - aka EGC) which may be bare wire, green insulated wire, or other acceptable means (such as a wire trough, metallic conduit, raceways, boxes) which must be electrically continuous. There may be no alternate paths to earth or points in the system where the "ground(s)" are in electrical contact with the "neutrals" beyond that service equipment.

[Jerry Peck]

Here are some of the things wrong without considering the means used for equipment grounding.


I see you did not circle the upside down lock nut on the bottom. ;)

Probably should be a bonding bushing anyway.

[Roger Frazee]

I see you did not circle the upside down lock nut on the bottom. ;)

Probably should be a bonding bushing anyway.


Ya know I was debating that bonding bushing but actually didn't notice the locknut ...:)

[Bill Nolte]

Folks, my 2.25¢

First notice that the mains are not (1) grouped (the A/C disconnect just became a main disconnect in this situation), (2) labeled as Main number X of XX with the required labeling showing location of the other main(s), allowed only with special permission of the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). The A/C may be considered as a separate structure, however in order to do so the separate structure will be required to have its own main attached to the separate structure (I am willing to bet it is not there along with the independent grounding electrode system as required for that structure). If we are going that route than the mains must be grouped with a maximum of 2 main disconnects (for residential) if the work is performed under current editions of the National Electrical Code.
There is also no grounding electrode system attached to the neutral bus in the A/C disconnect. I assume the homeowner retained the grounding electrode conductor in the original panel/load center inside.
Simply stated this installation is no where near meeting code and will require proper inspection and correction by a licensed electrician.
As everyone else covered wire terminations and conductor fill I will not go into those. What type of cover did the homeowner utilized for the old meter base enclosure as the original cover had a rather large opening for the meter base to fit into?? I doubt that his cover is UL Listed or approved for his reuse of the meter base.
Master Electrician 1979-current.

[Roger Frazee]

Bill

As I understand things a new dwelling service is installed at the attached garage and the 'service equipment' is located in the garage in the form of a main breaker panel ... or possibly meter/main. The old inside panel for the 'old' service is now just a panel fed from the 'new' service equipment. They tapped this 'feeder' to the interior panel to supply the A/C via a fused disconnect.

IMO the tap conductors are allowed (though not correct as shown) and no grouping is required for this situation. I'm not understanding how the A/C would be considered a separate structure needing a grounding electrode installed at that disconnect. I am also not understanding how that disconnect is considered a 'main' service disconnect or part of a 'main' service disconnect for the dwelling by requiring it to be grouped at the 'new' service location.

Now having said that ... this installation shown by Toms pictures was done by an owner and his friend, now whether they also did the 'new service' is unknown but assuming things are correct at the 'new' service equipment and the A/C is allowed to be fused I'm not on the same page with you as to how you are considering that a/c disconnect a service main. The disconnect shown likely isn't even rated for use as a service equipment disconnect ... though some are if a field installed ground bar is utilized.

I do agree that the entire installation be reviewed by an electrical contractor for past proper inspections and any corrections necessary.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Folks, my 2.25¢

First notice that the mains are not (1) grouped (the A/C disconnect just became a main disconnect in this situation), (2) labeled as Main number X of XX with the required labeling showing location of the other main(s), allowed only with special permission of the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). The A/C may be considered as a separate structure, however in order to do so the separate structure will be required to have its own main attached to the separate structure (I am willing to bet it is not there along with the independent grounding electrode system as required for that structure). If we are going that route than the mains must be grouped with a maximum of 2 main disconnects (for residential) if the work is performed under current editions of the National Electrical Code.
There is also no grounding electrode system attached to the neutral bus in the A/C disconnect. I assume the homeowner retained the grounding electrode conductor in the original panel/load center inside.
Simply stated this installation is no where near meeting code and will require proper inspection and correction by a licensed electrician.
As everyone else covered wire terminations and conductor fill I will not go into those. What type of cover did the homeowner utilized for the old meter base enclosure as the original cover had a rather large opening for the meter base to fit into?? I doubt that his cover is UL Listed or approved for his reuse of the meter base.
Master Electrician 1979-current.


Junction box at rear of house, used to be old main service and meter. Installed new main panel, meter and main breakers at new garage. They spliced together the service wires which run to interior panel and back out to new main panel. Small wires at splice are to A/C-fused service disconnect (black box to right). Question 1- is the splice allowed because there are different sized wires. Question 2- There is no breaker for A/C just the fused service disconnect, is this allowed. The homeowner (who did the wiring with friend) claims that because the disconnect is fused it is protected. I would appreciate any feedback. Thank You.


Jerry, The conductors coming up from the bottom come from the new main service panel at garage. They put in new service at garage with main panel and breaker (main disconnect). The conductors going out the top go to the distribution panel in mechanical closet.


Roger, The a/c is tapped in after the new main panel and before the old interior distribution panel.

It was not ever made clear that the "new garage" and/or "new main panel, new meter location, new service point, new main breaker" was a separate structure, or attached to the residence.

There was no indication that GEC bond was not made at the new service point.

The A/C condensor is not a separate structure to the residence.

It was stated/confirmed on three occasions that there IS a main disconnect at the main panel. The fused disconnect is a secondary disconnect and protects the short tap.

Please provide substantiation and citations for your statement:


If we are going that route than the mains must be grouped with a maximum of 2 main disconnects (for residential) if the work is performed under current editions of the National Electrical Code.


Also please explain your contention that a GEC to the fused disconnect for the A/C?????? would be allowed.

[Roger Frazee]

It was not ever made clear that the "new garage" and/or "new main panel, new meter location, new service point, new main breaker" was a separate structure, or attached to the residence.HG ... I appreciate the clarification as I see I made the statement that the garage and new service location is attached to the dwelling. I should have reviewed the thread before getting foot in mouth. It is entirely possible this is not the case.

Will discuss comments made previously if service equipment is verified to be located in a detached garage. Otherwise IMO comments made about service equipment located in a detached garage only confuses the situation.

[Bill Nolte]

It was not ever made clear that the "new garage" and/or "new main panel, new meter location, new service point, new main breaker" was a separate structure, or attached to the residence.

There was no indication that GEC bond was not made at the new service point.

The A/C condensor is not a separate structure to the residence.

It was stated/confirmed on three occasions that there IS a main disconnect at the main panel. The fused disconnect is a secondary disconnect and protects the short tap.

Please provide substantiation and citations for your statement:

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Also please explain your contention that a GEC to the fused disconnect for the A/C?????? would be allowed.

I believe the ambiguity of the description led us to take differing tracks the spliced “service wires” feeding the new meter and new main panel led me to understand that they were ahead of the main. If they are “service wires” as stated, they are ahead of the main. If not service conductors, they are a feeder and mislabeled in the statement.
Code mandates the Electrode Grounding System be terminated into each of the mains and bond each main’s neutral at each first means of disconnect point.
If the fused disconnect is ahead of the main (as stated by being tapped from the service wires) it becomes a main disconnect. A circuit breaker or set of fuses as the over current device becomes irrelevant as to which is utilized, the point is it is a first means of disconnect.
Electrical code allows the A/C unit to be considered as a “separate structure” and wired as such. (You can check Mike Holt’s code forum for discussions on this) A separate tap may be made off of the meter load side and feed this separate structure just as if it were a detached garage or other out building. The separate structure requires its own Electrode Grounding System, as we are no longer permitted to run a separate ground to the separate structure and not install the separate Electrode Grounding System. Although allowed, it is however not mandatory to make the A/C Condenser a separate structure for purposes of the electrical service. This is similar to a farm where all outbuildings are tapped off of the same electrical service metering point. Each structure requires its own Grounding Electrode System and main or group of main disconnects. The main(s) is/are not required to be adjacent to the point of metering.
Due to some ambiguity in the description, I chose to use meanings as defined in the NEC for my explanation.

[Jerry Peck]

I believe the ambiguity of the description led us to take differing tracks the spliced “service wires” feeding the new meter and new main panel led me to understand that they were ahead of the main. If they are “service wires” as stated, they are ahead of the main. If not service conductors, they are a feeder and mislabeled in the statement.
Code mandates the Electrode Grounding System be terminated into each of the mains and bond each main’s neutral at each first means of disconnect point.
If the fused disconnect is ahead of the main (as stated by being tapped from the service wires) it becomes a main disconnect. A circuit breaker or set of fuses as the over current device becomes irrelevant as to which is utilized, the point is it is a first means of disconnect.
Electrical code allows the A/C unit to be considered as a “separate structure” and wired as such. (You can check Mike Holt’s code forum for discussions on this) A separate tap may be made off of the meter load side and feed this separate structure just as if it were a detached garage or other out building. The separate structure requires its own Electrode Grounding System, as we are no longer permitted to run a separate ground to the separate structure and not install the separate Electrode Grounding System. Although allowed, it is however not mandatory to make the A/C Condenser a separate structure for purposes of the electrical service. This is similar to a farm where all outbuildings are tapped off of the same electrical service metering point. Each structure requires its own Grounding Electrode System and main or group of main disconnects. The main(s) is/are not required to be adjacent to the point of metering.
Due to some ambiguity in the description, I chose to use meanings as defined in the NEC for my explanation.

Bill,

I don't know where to start, but in these posts of yours, and those on another thread, you are spreading A LOT is misinformation and using incorrect terms, and revising terms (such as "Electrode Grounding System" when the term is "Grounding Electrode System", however, I think you meant the "Grounding Electrode Conductor"?).

Also "Electrical code allows the A/C unit to be considered as a “separate structure” and wired as such.", the a/c unit is not a "separate structure", nor is the a/c disconnect, nor is it wired as such either.

Short of almost totally disassembling your post piece by piece, I don't know where to start correcting you as there are just to much misinformation spread throughout the posts of yours.

Hopefully the people here already know enough to catch much of what you stated and to not take it as being correct.

[Bill Nolte]

Bill,

I don't know where to start, but in these posts of yours, and those on another thread, you are spreading A LOT is misinformation and using incorrect terms, and revising terms (such as "Electrode Grounding System" when the term is "Grounding Electrode System", however, I think you meant the "Grounding Electrode Conductor"?).

Also "Electrical code allows the A/C unit to be considered as a “separate structure” and wired as such.", the a/c unit is not a "separate structure", nor is the a/c disconnect, nor is it wired as such either.

Short of almost totally disassembling your post piece by piece, I don't know where to start correcting you as there are just to much misinformation spread throughout the posts of yours.

Hopefully the people here already know enough to catch much of what you stated and to not take it as being correct.

Disagreement does not necessarily make my statements incorrect.
Transposition of words is not necessarily misinformation. I apologize for transposing Grounding and Electrode, my error.
“specifications” does not mean “manual”. The commentary from the NFPA 70, 2008, NEC Handbook following your quotation of NFPA 70, 2008, NEC Article 90.1(C):
“The NEC is intended for use by capable engineers and electrical contractors in the design and/or installation of electrical equipment, by inspection authorities exercising legal jurisdiction over electrical installations; by property insurance inspectors; by qualified industrial, commercial and residential electricians; and by instructors of electrical apprentices or students.” (Sure sounds like a design manual or guide to me.)
Uncommon application of the NEC does not necessarily make such application incorrect.
Interpretative disagreements usually assist in refining the code hopefully making future divergent interpretations less common.

[Roger Frazee]

I've always been at odds with the use of the word "design" in article 90. I googled it to make my point

Design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design)

This argument over the use of the NEC as a design guide or design tool is very misleading and is often taken out of context.

If your a manufacturer then your equipment must be compatible with installation under the NEC. So when you "design your equipment' I suppose you reference the NEC in that design to meet minimum safety requirments.
If your an electrician then your circuits and wiring must be recognized as an acceptable wiring method for the application at hand.
So you reference the NEC so that your wiring "design" is code compliant/safe.

IMO they could use a better word than "design" ......:)

[Jerry Peck]

I've always been at odds with the use of the word "design" in article 90. I googled it to make my point

Design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design)

This argument over the use of the NEC as a design guide or design tool is very misleading and is often taken out of context.

If your a manufacturer then your equipment must be compatible with installation under the NEC. So when you "design your equipment' I suppose you reference the NEC in that design to meet minimum safety requirments.
If your an electrician then your circuits and wiring must be recognized as an acceptable wiring method for the application at hand.
So you reference the NEC so that your wiring "design" is code compliant/safe.

IMO they could use a better word than "design" ......:)

They do use a better word, and it is in (B) above from where I posted (C), but I posted (C) because it did use the "design" word.

Adequacy.

Followed by "necessary for safety".

Those are not how-to "design" words, those are "do it at least this well", i.e., the NEC, like all codes are "minimum" levels for work which allow for "adequacy" to attain a level "necessary for safety".

90.1 Purpose.
- (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
- (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.
- - FPN: Hazards often occur because of overloading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in conformity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes provide for future increases in the use of electricity.

From the "minimum" code you "design" the system to handle all the loads intended, and if you are smart, to handle future potential loads you can see being added.

The last part of the last sentence states a mouthful: "but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use."

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Disagreement does not necessarily make my statements incorrect.
Transposition of words is not necessarily misinformation. I apologize for transposing Grounding and Electrode, my error.
“specifications” does not mean “manual”. The commentary from the NFPA 70, 2008, NEC Handbook following your quotation of NFPA 70, 2008, NEC Article 90.1(C):
“The NEC is intended for use by capable engineers and electrical contractors in the design and/or installation of electrical equipment, by inspection authorities exercising legal jurisdiction over electrical installations; by property insurance inspectors; by qualified industrial, commercial and residential electricians; and by instructors of electrical apprentices or students.” (Sure sounds like a design manual or guide to me.)
Uncommon application of the NEC does not necessarily make such application incorrect.
Interpretative disagreements usually assist in refining the code hopefully making future divergent interpretations less common.

"Nolte"

STOP disagreeing with the Original Poster, who has confirmed what I said, responded to questions of others in subsequent posts, and indicated before you joined in on this post what IS and IS NOT the Pathway of what is pictured.

A NEW SERVICE ENTRANCE /service point was installed ELSEWEHRE ahead. What is pictured is Between that service equipment (which includes a Meter, Main Disconnect and circut protection) and before the panel in the interior. Part of the old location wiring was repurposed (incorrectly). You are looking at a less-than-correct FEEDER Circuit and its tap to A/C.

Apparently you are having great difficulty with the language to follow along.

Everything you have said is total nonsense!

[Roger Frazee]

They do use a better word, and it is in (B) above from where I posted (C), but I posted (C) because it did use the "design" word.

Adequacy.

Followed by "necessary for safety".

Those are not how-to "design" words, those are "do it at least this well", i.e., the NEC, like all codes are "minimum" levels for work which allow for "adequacy" to attain a level "necessary for safety".

90.1 Purpose.
- (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.
- (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.
- - FPN: Hazards often occur because of overloading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in conformity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes provide for future increases in the use of electricity.

From the "minimum" code you "design" the system to handle all the loads intended, and if you are smart, to handle future potential loads you can see being added.

The last part of the last sentence states a mouthful: "but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use."

You might be surprised how many electricians never read article 90 ....:)

Anyway as always you make very good points and show where your thought process is coming from ... that always makes for an interesting read and most of the time I actually learn something....:)

What's the latest on Earl ? Seems it is going to miss your area....

[Jerry Peck]

What's the latest on Earl ? Seems it is going to miss your area....

Just higher winds than normal and higher surf, thanks to Earl, but ...

North Carolina and the Outer Banks - Watch OUT!

Every time they issue an update Earl seems to be coming closer and closer to the east coast states.

By the way, *I* learn a lot here too, from your posts and from others.

[Tom Rees]

Speaking of Earl, do any of you do any FEMA disaster inspections. I was thinking of signing up with a company called "PB Disaster Services" anyone heard of them.

[bob smit]

I've had a few 'homeowner' new installations to inspect today that would rival this mess, uggg. Thanks be to god for the weekend.
Y'all have a good L-DAY:rolleyes: