Lead Abatement Enforcement

[David Bell]

Has anybody seen or been party to any enforcement of the new lead abatement laws. It has been my understanding that the municipalities are turning a blind eye to the issue and only requiring back-up documentation after the fact.

[Ron Bibler]

The Calif. Structural Pest Control Board has given us and extension up to the first of the year as long as we are singed up for a class.

Its all in holding for now. Some attorney is going to make a killing off of this. The real estate agents in my area don't have a clue that this is even a law and the it has a fine up to $ 35k a day...

I keep advising my clients of it...

Best

Ron

[Rick Cantrell]

"Has anybody seen or been party to any enforcement of the new lead abatement laws."

You said abatement, however I think you are talking about leat paint.
The RRP Rule that went into effect in April.
I receive emails about RRP news.
At this time there is very little if any enforcement of the new law.
Talk is, it will be Certified RRP Contractors turning in the not certified contractors. Then in order to avoid paying the bill, the Homeowners will report them. Followed last by local Goverment enforcement.

[David Bell]

"Has anybody seen or been party to any enforcement of the new lead abatement laws."

You said abatement, however I think you are talking about leat paint.
The RRP Rule that went into effect in April.
I receive emails about RRP news.
At this time there is very little if any enforcement of the new law.
Talk is, it will be Certified RRP Contractors turning in the not certified contractors. Then in order to avoid paying the bill, the Homeowners will report them. Followed last by local Goverment enforcement.

Contractors turning in contractors, seems to me this will accomplish nothing but to clog up an already overburdened municipal inspection dept. This legislation is about money, pure and simple. Proof of that is the removal of the homeowner waiver option.

[Rick Cantrell]

"Contractors turning in contractors, seems to me this will accomplish nothing but to clog up an already overburdened municipal inspection dept."

My thoughts are, it will be reported to the EPA not the local building department. The local will not be enforcing the RRP rule, at least for a while. The EPA is the enforcement agency one will have to reckon with.
If and when the EPA allots some of the money from fines to the locals, then the locals will have an incentive to enforce the rule.
I think reporting violators to the EPA will be from other contractors, homeowners and property renters.

[Lisa Endza]

InterNACHI offers this course.

[Rick Cantrell]

"InterNACHI offers this course."

Lisa
I presume you are referring to the RRP course.
We have been over this before.
You (INACHI) do not have this course.
What you have is the information that is covered during the course.
It is misleading to say otherwise.

You did put a notice at the beginning stating that it was not certified.
However, there were several places in the presentation that indicated that it was certified, or that after completion one would be certified.

I think you (Ben) has done a good job by putting it online.

I'm sure you will let me know of any updates on this.

[Jim Robinson]

Has anybody seen or been party to any enforcement of the new lead abatement laws. It has been my understanding that the municipalities are turning a blind eye to the issue and only requiring back-up documentation after the fact.

They are doing absolutely nothing about it in my area. Our local AHJ said they have not even talked about enforcing the law.

[Lisa Endza]

Lisa
I presume you are referring to the RRP course.
We have been over this before.
You (INACHI) do not have this course.
What you have is the information that is covered during the course.
It is misleading to say otherwise.

You did put a notice at the beginning stating that it was not certified.
However, there were several places in the presentation that indicated that it was certified, or that after completion one would be certified.

I think you (Ben) has done a good job by putting it online.

I'm sure you will let me know of any updates on this.I refer you to the U.S. EPA site Lead Home | Lead in Paint, Dust, and Soil | US EPA (http://cfpub.epa.gov/flpp/searchrrp.cfm?Applicant_Type=TRAINING&static=true&qlat=40.0521545112133&qlong=-105.19627176225185&Discipline=Renovator&TxtLocation=80301+++&distance_1=50&state_2=&doSearch=Yes)

Note the second provider down on the list.

[Rick Cantrell]

I recently heard a PSA on the radio saying something about using RRP certified contractors. But it was weak.

The EPA is having a meeting in Atlanta to discuss enforcement of RRP.
I plan on being there.

Several states have adopted their own standards and enforcement.
The standards are identical to the EPAs, so are the fines.
The difference is, it seems that the state gets to keep the fines.
I expect that if the state keeps the fines, the state is much more likely to enforce the RRP rules.

[Lisa Endza]

Home Depot now gives you the RPP notice, which is quite scary, every time you buy paint.

InterNACHI's course is EPA approved.

[Rick Cantrell]

Good for you Lisa.
I stand corrected.
I believe that makes you (INACHI) the only course that has been accredited for online training.
Question.
How did you satisfy the requirement for "Hands on" training?

[Rick Cantrell]

Let me be the 1st to congratulate you.
Well, maybe not the 1st, but, congratulations.

[Rick Cantrell]

Lisa
Am I correct in thinking that a person taking your online course must go to Colorado to get the "hands on" training, and also take the test, in person, before they are actually certified?

[Lisa Endza]

Both portions have been approved by the EPA. You should first take the six hours online for free. Then take the two hours of hands-on training which is available through any number of InterNACHI School/EPA-approved instructors across the U.S. Our Colorado location offers it every week at no charge for InterNACHI members.

As you point out, the big advantage of InterNACHI's course is that you can complete most of it online.

The certification is valid for five years. After that you will have to take InterNACHI's online refresher course.

[Rick Cantrell]

So I can expect to see you in Columbus, when?:)

[Fred Comb]

Has anybody seen or been party to any enforcement of the new lead abatement laws. It has been my understanding that the municipalities are turning a blind eye to the issue and only requiring back-up documentation after the fact.

I can speak only for MN - We have a state law that requires all municipalities in MN to look up the EPA certification of contractors who request permits for work in/on/at homes built prior to 1978. And yes, to the other part of your question.

[Garry Sorrells]

Home Depot now gives you the RPP notice, which is quite scary, every time you buy paint.

InterNACHI's course is EPA approved.

Let me jump in. Reading posts have me a little confused. (nothing new) So Lisa, as a representative/agent of InterNACHI you are saying that I can fulfill the Maryland MHIC EPA Contractor Certification requirements through InterNACHI online and that there is someone Certified in Maryland that is connected to and part of InterNACHI that will complete the certification program requirements for the applicant. All free (killer deal) to members of InterNACHI. And you have a name of the representative in Maryland that I can have to confirm their status as acceptable for Maryland. ( a little wordy sorry, want to be clear in what I am asking ).

[Lisa Endza]

No, you can't. InterNACHI members can.

[Jeff Langhorn]

No, you can't. InterNACHI members can.
I may have to sign up with Internachi if the RRP training is free. Average cost for RRP training is $250 in my area. If I hook up with Internachi for $390, get RRP certification and take advantage of some of the other online courses I could easily justify the cost. Any hidden costs for the RRP cert.?

[Garry Sorrells]

No, you can't. InterNACHI members can.


Sorry, maybe I did not word my inquiry correctly.

""""..."So Lisa, as a representative/agent of InterNACHI you are saying that I can fulfill the Maryland MHIC EPA Contractor Certification requirements through InterNACHI online and that there is someone Certified in Maryland that is connected to and part of InterNACHI that will complete the certification program requirements for the applicant. All free (killer deal) to members of InterNACHI. And you have a name of the representative in Maryland that I can have to confirm their status as acceptable for Maryland".....""""

Let me try again. Adding to/clarifying my post. Presumptive that the free part is a result of being a InterNACHI member in good standing (paid up membership), ergo "..(killer deal)...." = great deal. My reiteration, " And you have a name of the representative in Maryland that I can have to confirm their status as acceptable for Maryland"? Sorry that I left the question mark off the original post.

[Garry Sorrells]

I may have to sign up with Internachi if the RRP training is free. Average cost for RRP training is $250 in my area. If I hook up with Internachi for $390, get RRP certification and take advantage of some of the other online courses I could easily justify the cost. Any hidden costs for the RRP cert.?

That was my thinking also. MD runs about the same, depend who is the extortion agent for the EPA. Never apposed to a good deal, but always wherry.

[Jeff Langhorn]

That was my thinking also. MD runs about the same, depend who is the extortion agent for the EPA. Never apposed to a good deal, but always wherry.
Training for certification is one cost and the EPA wants some money as well. Last time I check between training cost and EPA cost it was around $500.:mad: Is that about rights?

[Garry Sorrells]

Training for certification is one cost and the EPA wants some money as well. Last time I check between training cost and EPA cost it was around $500.:mad: Is that about rights?

Certification class @$ 250 + EPA Registgration @ $400 ? + Equipment @$300 to $500 +
Then to actual follow protocol add $300 min to job cost for each job. Botttle of Excedren for the headache from vining by client when told of new added costs and why (I always explain every thing in detail to clients). And that is the beginning of what the Nanny State will be requiring in the future. I think that the blowhards in gov are saying that there is only $50 added to job costs. And health care will be free for all at no cost to anyone.

[Lisa Endza]

With InterNACHI's system, you don't have to pay the EPA for the certification. InterNACHI provides the certification for the EPA at no additional cost.

[Jim Robinson]

I just registered for the class here at our local community college. It looks like it will be $225 total, including the certification. I'll find out on Thursday and let you know if there are other costs involved. I don't really need it for inspections, but I may for working on my rental properties if they ever get around to enforcing it here.

[Rick Cantrell]

"
With InterNACHI's system, you don't have to pay the EPA for the certification. InterNACHI provides the certification for the EPA at no additional cost."


Lisa,
I don't think thats the way it works.
Its not just INACHI, It's like that with all trainers.

A person takes the training and is certified, no charge from the EPA
A Company pays $300 to the EPA and is registered as a Certified firm.
Gotta have both.

[Rick Cantrell]

Jim
If your properties were built before 1978, then yes, you should get it.
You will also need to be a Certifying firm, $300 to the EPA.

I also have rentals.
Instead of thinking about IF the EPA will ever do anything, think instead, "Will my tenants sue me or turn me in, if given half a chance?".
Hint, yes they will

[Jeff Langhorn]

With InterNACHI's system, you don't have to pay the EPA for the certification. InterNACHI provides the certification for the EPA at no additional cost.
Lisa, I may not understand "No additional cost" for InterNachi Members....Am I reading this from the Nachi training site correctly?

To become certified, renovation contractors must submit an application and fee payment to EPA and take an 8-hour training course from an EPA-approved training provider. InterNACHI is an EPA-approved training provider.

Complete the 6-hour online portion of this course (free);
Attend the required 2-hour hands-on training session (There is a fee associated with the hands-on portion); and --Fee ????
Submit an application and fee payment to EPA (There may be a fee associated (http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/lead/pubs/lscp-renovation_firm.htm)).(I high lighted the next paragraph from the Nachi training site in red because it appears there is an extra cost required. Is there a fee of $200+ for Nachi members to complete rrp training.)


Note: There is a fee associated with the required 2-hour hands-on training session (national average $200-250). The 2-hour hands-on training session is a required element of any EPA RRP course to become a Certified Renovator. You can not become a Certified Renovator without completing the 2 hours of live, classroom hands-on training. Hands-on training is available through The InterNACHI School (http://www.nachi.org/school.htm). The training fee varies from $200 to $250, according to the student's location and the instructor's availability.

[Lisa Endza]

No. The fee is only charged to non-member students which we believe will be mostly contractors who are required by law to have this certification. We don't see much demand for this renovator's certification coming from InterNACHI inspectors, other than maybe for general knowledge which they can already get from our online course for free.

We have to be careful because we've been burned in the past by having some of our free membership benefits each individually worth more than the cost to join InterNACHI. This attracted non-inspectors into InterNACHI who only tried to join to access one or two high-value benefits and who had no true intention of ever offering inspection services, which the boss man doesn't like.

[Jeff Langhorn]

No. The fee is only charged to non-member students which we believe will be mostly contractors who are required by law to have this certification. We don't see much demand for this renovator's certification coming from InterNACHI inspectors, other than maybe for general knowledge which they can already get from our online course for free.

We have to be careful because we've been burned in the past by having some of our free membership benefits each individually worth more than the cost to join InterNACHI. This attracted non-inspectors into InterNACHI who only joined to access one or two benefits and who had no true intention of becoming home inspectors, which the boss man doesn't like.

Lisa, Thank you for the clarification.

[Garry Sorrells]

Sorry made an error on cost for EPA registration, not $400

The EPA application/registration is (to get the EPA Certificate) go to:

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/firmapp.pdf

Renovation Firm Certification $300
Lead-based Paint Activities Certification (Abatement, Inspection, Risk Assessment) $550

Firms must be re-certified every five (5) years for renovations and three (3) years for lead-based paint activities (abatement, inspection, risk assessment).

Some states have their own certification programs. Wisconsin (http://dhs.wisconsin.gov/lead), Iowa (http://www.idph.state.ia.us/eh/lead_poisoning_prevention.asp#regulations), North Carolina (http://www.epi.state.nc.us/epi/lead.html), Mississippi (http://www.deq.state.ms.us/MDEQ.nsf/page/Air_Lead-BasedPaint), Kansas (http://www.kshealthyhomes.org/), Rhode Island (http://www.health.ri.gov/leadpoisoning/index.php), Utah (http://www.airquality.utah.gov/HAPs/lead/index.htm), Oregon (http://oregon.gov/DHS/ph/lead/Renovation_Repair_Painting_Rule.shtml), Massachusetts (http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=elwdterminal&L=4&L0=Home&L1=Workers+and+Unions&L2=Licensing+and+Certification&L3=Lead+Program&sid=Elwd&b=terminalcontent&f=dos_lead_RRP_RRP_overview_Mar_2010&csid=Elwd), and Alabama (http://www.adph.org/lead)
go to:

EPA Lead-Safe Certification Program | Lead in Paint, Dust, and Soil | US EPA (http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/lscp-renovation_firm.htm)


Now that I have corrected myself. Back to the horse on the ground.

Lisa,

Would you provide the name of the person/persons/company that are Certified in Baltimore Maryland to provide the 2hr hands on instruction that work in conjunction with InterNACHI's on-line course (free to members that are Lic HI) that meet the EPA training requirements for the Training Certificate.

You posed the following:

"With InterNACHI's system, you don't have to pay the EPA for the certification. InterNACHI provides the certification for the EPA at no additional cost."

You were referring to the training certification not the the EPA Registration Certificate?

[Garry Sorrells]

Lisa,
Would you give me the link that takes you to that part of the InterNACHI's site dealing with the EPA RRP course certificate training. You have so much I was just able to find it. Thanks

[Garry Sorrells]

Did find the InterNACHI.org site : "Lead Safety for Renovation, Repair and Painting (RRP)" course - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/lead-safety-rrp-course.htm)

Found at site:

"To become certified, renovation contractors must submit an application and fee payment to EPA and take an eight-hour training course from an EPA-approved training provider. InterNACHI is an EPA-approved training provider."

Also found the training accreditation # NAT-RV-I-61589-1-EL

Saw listing of EPA Training Accreditation @ :

http://cfpub.epa.gov/flpp/searchrrp.cfm?Applicant_Type=TRAINING&static=true&qlat=40.0521545112133&qlong=-105.19627176225185&Discipline=Renovator&TxtLocation=80301+++&distance_1=50&state_2=&doSearch=Yes

Which leaves me with the question of who and where in the Baltimore Maryland area provides the 2 hr complement training to the 6 hr on-line course.

[Jim Robinson]

I'm curious if I need to register a firm to work on my own properties. I guess I'll find out tomorrow.

[Rick Cantrell]

"I'm curious if I need to register a firm to work on my own properties. I guess I'll find out tomorrow."

Yes

[Garry Sorrells]

I'm curious if I need to register a firm to work on my own properties. I guess I'll find out tomorrow.

Any work done by a contractor (Lic or not, yes even illegal aliens) must now follow the EPA RRP rules. In MD we had our own state rules to work within. The EPA RRP now trumps what each state required. It does not make a difference who owns the property. The property owner can not wave the methods to preform the work. Is it possible to do the work yourself and not fall under the new regulation somehow, technically probably not.

[Rick Cantrell]

Any work done by a contractor (Lic or not, yes even illegal aliens) must now follow the EPA RRP rules.
Correct


In MD we had our own state rules to work within.
I heard that your state has some of the strictest rules in the country.


The EPA RRP now trumps what each state required.
Just as with national, state, and local building codes, the more restrictive code will apply.


It does not make a difference who owns the property. The property owner can not wave the methods to preform the work.
The owner of the property can do the work themselves. IF they live at the property, they are not bound by the EPA RRP rule.
NOTE: They may still be subject to state and local.

Is it possible to do the work yourself and not fall under the new regulation somehow, technically probably not.
Yes, it is possible, but only when the property is your residence, not when the property is a rental property.

[Garry Sorrells]

Lisa,
Knock----kknock???

Which leaves me with the question of who and where in the Baltimore Maryland area provides the 2 hr complement training to the 6 hr on-line course.

Also, is there a list of instructors by state?

[Lisa Endza]

I just got word. We are only offering the course to InterNACHI members.

[Jim Robinson]

Took the class today. You can work on your own home without being subject to RRP. There is no longer any opt out scenario. A landlord working for free on his own property still must follow the RRP requirements. The instructor was not completely clear about if I had to register as a firm to work on my own property. I guess you just notify yourself. I will probably just go ahead and register in my company name, which may leave me some other options in the future. Maybe I'll hire myself to remodel my rental.

It's not that huge of a deal to implement. People who are good at documentation and paperwork will have an easier time. The rest of it is pretty basic dust control taken to a higher level. The big hang up for a lot of people will be the need to pick up a HEPA vacuum. One funny thing is I am now certified to test for the presence of lead as part of an RRP project, but not to test for lead as a home inspector. Kind of funny.

The instructor gave us some deadlines to expect an enforcement stand in our state, with some details about how it will go down. I'm curious to see what happens. Apparently there were some heavy fines in Denver. Did anyone hear of them?

[Jim Robinson]

Also, she said this guys web site is a good source of information. He's opposed to the law. My instructor was not opposed to the law, but said his information is pretty accurate as far as the status of the law.

Shawn McCadden Remodeling Industry Specialist, EPA RRP Consultant (http://www.shawnmccadden.com/)

[Rick Cantrell]

The instructor was not completely clear about if I had to register as a firm to work on my own property.
Yes, you will need to be a registered firm, or else have a registered firm document and retain the paperwork.


I guess you just notify yourself
Most important, notify your tenants.

From what I've heard, when they fine someone, they fine them for improper documentation.

[Garry Sorrells]

I just got word. We are only offering the course to InterNACHI members.

Which leaves me with the question of who and where in the Baltimore Maryland area provides the 2 hr complement training to the 6 hr on-line course.

Also, is there a list of instructors by state?

[Lisa Endza]

Also, is there a list of instructors by state?

It appears that there are ten in Maryland. Here is the link to the EPA site Lead Home | Lead in Paint, Dust, and Soil | US EPA (http://cfpub.epa.gov/flpp/searchrrp.cfm?Applicant_Type=TRAINING&static=true&qlat=&qlong=&Discipline=Renovator&TxtLocation=&distance_1=50&state_2=MD-Maryland&doSearch=Yes)

[Garry Sorrells]

Lisa,
Very sorry that I am apparently not making my question clear enough.

You are only offering the course to InterNACHI members. OK
I was able to fin the InterNACHI training certification number.

You stated that InterNACHI has certified EPA instructors that will provide the 2 hr additional training/class that will fulfill the course certification.

What I am asking for is the ability to verify that those instructors are actualy accresiated to sign off on the additional training that is required beyond the on-line course that InterNACH offers free to its members (that are HIs).

I am asking for a list of those instructors that are participating in the InterNACHI training that is being offered to its members, by state or just as a list. That way I (we) can determine how far one would have to travel to obtain the required face to face training that is required by the EPA to have InterNACHI provide a Certificate of completion that will be excepted by the EPA for their registration process.

What I and others want to see and be able to verify is that there are no loose ends to what InterNACHI is offering as a free to members who are Home Inspectors.

If you have to go 300 miles, to find a InterNACHI participating instructor, that will make a difference.

[Lisa Endza]

It actually won't make a difference. Although I'm sure I wouldn't be permitted to publish any list anyway, yesterday, after receiving EPA approval, InterNACHI closed the course to non-members. Sorry. Try the EPA link of approved trainers I gave you. It looks like they have quite a few in Maryland.

[Garry Sorrells]

To anyone following this thread if I am not being clear or there is a better way on what I am asking from Lisa and InterNACHI,

Please give me a hand !

[Dan Harris]

To anyone following this thread if I am not being clear or there is a better way on what I am asking from Lisa and InterNACHI,

Please give me a hand !

It's very clear to me.
All you have to do is join nacho, pay nicki for your instant cert, and you'll get an answer. Until then your just another dumb stupid scum bag like the rest of us. :D

[Garry Sorrells]

It actually won't make a difference. Although I'm sure I wouldn't be permitted to publish any list anyway, yesterday, after receiving EPA approval, InterNACHI closed the course to non-members. Sorry. Try the EPA link of approved trainers I gave you. It looks like they have quite a few in Maryland.


OK, LET ME TRY AGAIN.

I JOIN InterNACHI AND BECOME A MEMBER. AGAIN I REPEAT,
I JOIN InterNACHI AND BECOME A MEMBER.
THAT AS A MEMBER I PREFORM HOME INSPECTIONS.
ONE REASON TO JOIN IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO OBTAIN THE CERTIFICATION TO REGISTER WITH THE EPA VIA THE FREE TRAINING RECEIVED AS A MEMBER OF
InterNACHI.

I WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO WHO DOES THE HANDS ON TRAINING FOR InterNACHI , AND THEIR CREDENTIALS.

I WANT TO VERIFY WHAT InterNACHI IS OFFERING AS AN INCENTIVE/INDUCEMENT TO JOINING IS VIABLE OR IF IT IS NOT.

WHO / WHERE WOULD I HAVE TO GO TO
AND
HOW FAR WOULD I HAVE TO TRAVEL TO FINISH THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS AFTER COMPLETING THE ON-LINE TRAINING THROUGH InterNACHI ???

AGAIN THIS IS ALL PREFACED THAT:

I JOIN InterNACHI
AND
THAT AS A MEMBER I PREFORM HOME INSPECTIONS.

This is not about non-member training in any terms !
It is all about being a member.

[Jim Robinson]

From what I've heard, when they fine someone, they fine them for improper documentation.

Repeated several times by the instructor.

[William Brady]

First let me say that I am a Lead Paint Inspector and Risk Assessor along with also being a long time HI. We are certified by the EPA for Region 6 and the Region 6 Tribal Lands and Licensed in Texas. States that administer there own Lead programs have enforcement powers and are doing that. EPA is still working out the details but will address complaints as needed.

States like mine do not require contractors to prove anything at this point when pulling a permit to do any work on pre 1978 homes. Sounds like a problem waiting to happen. For example contractors are taking the RRP course but for some they do not apply to the EPA or the State for certification. Then when asked by realtors if they are OK to do the work they say yes which is causing lots of problems for everyone. Next week we are doing a lead inspection just because some contractor did the work for a property manager and was not certified. When the house was listed for sale the listing broker found out about this and called us in to advise him as to his oblgation to disclose this information to the buyer. Here in New Mexico Brokers have to disclose this type of information or they are risking a license problem. So I think the problem is that lots of people have little or no knowledge about the regulation and say things that are just not true.

My advice to anyone is to call a Lead Inspector or Risk Assessor in your area if you need questions answered right away. The big agency's can not handle the volume.

[Garry Sorrells]

William,
Not absolutely sure, but believe that there is a responsibility of the party obtaining a service from a contractor to request/demand that they produce evidence that they are certified.

Now this may surprise you. Some contractors will lie through their teeth. Even some contractors are illegal aliens who are not eligible to work in the US. If they will not get one document why would they get another?


"...listing broker found out about this and called us in to advise him as to his oblgation to disclose this information to the buyer...."

I guess that New Mexico has poor disclosure regulations if the Realtor would even think that there is a question of not disclosing the issue. And why would they ask you unless you are a lawyer. It sounds like a legal opinion.

I would think the the property owner now has to keep all records and documentation regarding any renovations that fall under the new statutes by the EPA. Even if a permit for the work was not required.

[William Brady]

You are corrrect about asking for proper documentation from someone doing the work. What I am trying to talk about is the real world issues that I see coming up. In good faith this broker asked about his qualification and he produced the class cert. of attending the RRP class. She thought it was what she needed. What I was trying to say also is that some contractors have attended the RRP class but for one reason or another they have not gone the next step to get the required EPA certification. Maybe it's the money it cost, or maybe after they seeing what is required they decide not to get the certification. I have been told by contractor friends that both are reasons for not haveing gone forward. They in turn do not do work on homes built prior to 1978. In this case this contractor was observed doing the work and not using Lead Safe Work Practices.

To your point as to why they called me. As a Risk Assessor I can consult with a customer regarding the requirements to do Lead Paint work. Both prior to the work and the abatement issues and also the cost to do a job from beginning to end. Maybe you did not know that. That is what a Risk Assessor does. There is a difference between a Risk Assessor and a Lead Paint Inspector. I also teach CE to Realtors on inspections issues. One class is Lead Paint Inspections and Risk Assessments. Locally and state wide they know me becaue I am the only one teaching those courses. By the way in this case and you might disagree I do not need to be a lawyer to answer these kind of questions.

As for New Mexico disclousuer requirement they are very strict. However in the case of Lead Paint like everywhere else this comes as a new regulation and it has created many quesions for everyone. I think it is important to get good and correct information from someone who knows what they are talking about. In this case this realtor was led in the wrong direction by a contractor who's motive was the work and not the regulations or laws. This house was in the process of being sold and they wanted to make sure before the future buyer made a complaint after a sale.

Let me ask you this question If for example you were doing a Radon inspection and someone asked you questions regaring how that worked. Would you feel confortable in answering that question or would you advise them to seek counsel. Would you tell them why radon was harmful or advise seeking counsel. If you were a pest inspector would you not tell your clients whow it works and the damage termits can do to a home or would you tell them to seek a lawyer.

Also please let me say that I am not looking for a big disagreement with you. As a home inspector I read this site often and know that it can be a place where some want to bully others with there knowledge. I am in no way trying to do that. I am stating the facts as I know them from the EPA, HUD and OSHA regarding Lead Paint Inspections and Risk Assessments. I am not guessing about any of this. I am sure that I have not covered this topic fully and you can read into it and find fault. It would be better to talk about the issue an not start the blame game. I am not sure I know everything as a matter of fact this topic is so complicated that I need to check the manules often. I hope I have been of some help in answering your concerns.

[Garry Sorrells]

William,
The part dealing with you as a lawyer was as a result of what you stated.

" ... When the house was listed for sale the listing broker found out about this and called us in to advise him as to his oblgation to disclose this information to the buyer. ..."

Disclosure > This I would take as a legal point for an opinion. To disclose or not to disclose. To be truthful or deceptive. What is required, by law, of the broker. Who's responsibility is it and if not done by the primary party does it become the responsibility of others to preform if fact are known.

Its not about prior and post requirements of the work, but more about the legal ramifications of the non EPA registered contractor. Being in position of the certificate ".... he produced the class cert. of attending the RRP class. ...." does not meet all of the requirements as set by the EPA, but in court hairs are split. Again in court the statement that "In this case this contractor was observed doing the work and not using Lead Safe Work Practices. " would be a final judgment by the court. Not to say that any of that can not be determined by the understanding of what the requirements are and how they should be followed. Legal (sad to say) is not about right and wrong, its about an argument of fact (or its twisting) and then a determination by the presiding authority.

It was very wise that the seller wanted to be informed of future remediation that may be required as a result of the work done at the owner's direction. Not sure why the Realator was asking the contractor if they were qualified, unless the Realtor was acting by power of attorney in some form, to handle (be an agent/representative of the owner) the work and its contracts. The point here is if the Realtor procured the contractor and contracted for work as a owner's representative then the Realtor is on the hook. If the owner relied on the expressed (by Realtor) professional expertise of the Realtor as the source to authenticate the contractor as qualified, then again I would deem that the Realtor is on the hook for the post work remediation and liability. Did the Realtor proffer to the owner the contractor as a referred qualified source to preform the work Then Realtor is on the hook. I am not a lawyer, just personal interpenetration of situation. Many times I will get into a discussion with lawyer friends and there seem to be a twist in the law that I did not understand. And this all differed by State and jurisdiction.

I understand that they called you first as a familiar face and a source of information. That in certain areas you can offer an Expert Opinion. But, as I took their question as to disclosure to buyer, I would have thought that the Realtor would have wanted a legal opinion as to their liability in the matter.

Today it seem that if a client is refereed to a trade professional by another trade professional there is an implied representation by the referring party. Ergo when it hits the fan the referring party is drug into the mess (right or wrong). Which is why I choose making referrals cautiously.

[Garry Sorrells]

It actually won't make a difference. Although I'm sure I wouldn't be permitted to publish any list anyway, yesterday, after receiving EPA approval, InterNACHI closed the course to non-members. Sorry. Try the EPA link of approved trainers I gave you. It looks like they have quite a few in Maryland.


Lisa,

As a prospective member I would like to know who does the hands on/ in person training that completes the InterNACHI on-line EPA RRP in the Maryland region.

If you feel that you can not respond in this thread publicly, please send me a reply via utilizing the "Send a private message to..." option.

[Lisa Endza]

We don't offer that information, or the course, to non-InterNACHI members.

[Rick Cantrell]

Lisa
If Nick were to invite you to a cookout.
And at the cookout he was serving Grilled Turds.
When he hands you a Grilled Turd on a bun, would you say, Mmmmm?

[Lisa Endza]

No. I don't get what you are trying to say. Can you explain?

[Rick Cantrell]

It's a metaphor

[Lisa Endza]

I don't get it though. What is the "cookout" Nick is inviting me to in your metaphor?

[Rick Cantrell]

What is the "cookout...

Employment,
A paycheck
In short, your job.

[Lisa Endza]

Oh. I love my job. I'm only a year into a very long-term contract with InterNACHI, so I'm glad it's a job I love. It's more than just a great job though. InterNACHI is succeeding in becoming the world's first, truly global professional association, and it is really exciting to be part of something so big.

[Rick Cantrell]

" ...would you say, Mmmmm?"

Oh. I love my job. I'm only a year into a very long-term contract with InterNACHI, so I'm glad it's a job I love. It's more than just a great job though. InterNACHI is succeeding in becoming the world's first, truly global professional association, and it is really exciting to be part of something so big.


Mmmmm.

[Lisa Endza]

Your metaphor isn't. Because no one "handed" me my job. I earned it.

[Rick Cantrell]

I wasn't questioning your ability.
You are a smart person.
It just seems that sometimes you are expected to... well, eat S***.

[Lisa Endza]

"expected" by whom?

[Rick Cantrell]

"expected" by whom?

I cannot answer that
Maybe it's You

[Dan Harris]

" ...would you say, Mmmmm?"

Oh. InterNACHI is succeeding in becoming the world's first, truly global professional association, .
Mmmmm.

LOL.. The biggest and professional is only in your mind :D
This past weekend I was at a CE seminar with 50 plus other inspectors. I asked 10 of them about nacho and nick..

Four didn't have a clue who nick or nacho was.

Two were nacho members, new inspectors, claimed they hated him and what he stands for, but choose to stay a member because they get 1 or 2 inspections a month from the search engines. One of them admitted he keeps sending his dues in and hasn't been asked for or turned in any Cont. Ed reports since being a member for the past three years.

Three said they used to be members and quit after seeing all the crap and lies about others, open to the public.

One [that nick once claimed they were buddies] said I refuse to talk about nick or anything about his club because all he wants is attention, and us to talk about him. :D

[Lisa Endza]

Dan Harris provides evidence to support his claim that non-InterNACHI members are financial morons when he writes
because they get 1 or 2 inspections a month from the search engines. So Dan, you are claiming that it costs money to remain a non-InterNACHI member. Good thing you don't have stockholders, or a wife to answer to. They'd be furious that you aren't a member of InterNACHI. LOL!

[Dan Harris]

Dan Harris provides evidence to support his claim that non-InterNACHI members are financial morons when he writes So Dan, you are claiming that it costs money to remain a non-InterNACHI member. Good thing you don't have stockholders, or a wife to answer to. They'd be furious that you aren't a member of InterNACHI. LOL!

Auctualy after I told them how many inspections I get monthly from non nacho search sites, and ask them if they knew how many inspections they may be loosing due to the reputation of nacho, they appeared to have second thoughts about remaining a member. :D

[Lisa Endza]

Hey, if you want to steal food from the mouths of your own kids to remain hung-up on refusing to join InterNACHI as if it amounted to switching religions or churches, that's your decision. Just don't call yourself a good father or businessman. You're neither.

InterNACHI is all about feeding your family.

[Dan Harris]

Hey, if you want to steal food from the mouths of your own kids to remain hung-up on refusing to join InterNACHI as if it amounted to switching religions or churches, that's your decision. Just don't call yourself a good father or businessman. You're neither.

InterNACHI is all about feeding your family.

LOL.. Typical nicki, start name calling when exposed for what his club is.

My kid is grown up, my grand kids think I'm cool. :D

After showing my wife all the name calling and lying about other inspectors from nicko, on the nacho site, that I was supporting and promotoing, my wife helped me make the best business decision I ever made.
Her quote , [ a lawyer] Customers will search your name and business and will associate you with the people you associate youself with. The best thing you can do for your business and reputation is DO not have anything to do with that person or association. .

[Lisa Endza]

Don't make me laugh again. InterNACHI does more for inspectors in a week than all other associations have done in the past 20 years. And inspectors rewarded InterNACHI by making it the industry's lone superpower.

The days of paying hundreds of dollars, year after year, in return for nothing are long gone. If you want to survive and thrive as a professional trade association nowadays, you have to help inspectors, not just charge them for diploma mill logo usage.

You seem to like stalking me and you're always trying to pick a fight. OK, I'll give you one. Your association lost so many members to InterNACHI in 2010 because your little rip-off society has all but run out of idiots. Dan, since you'll likely be the last to leave, help the environment and remember to turn out the lights. Take that, if you can handle it.

[Garry Sorrells]

We don't offer that information, or the course, to non-InterNACHI members.


Lisa, as Director of Communication for InterNACHI, why are you so reluctant to provide verification that the free on-line EPA RRP Certicication can be completed so that a valid certificate, that will be recognized by the EPA for their registration, can be obtained ?

Is it that InterNACHI has only one person in the United States that can complete the training required by the EPA ?

If InterNACHI has only one person to completet the training, is it not a fraud or at least misrepresentation to say that InterNACHI offers free EPA RRP Certification to InterNACHI members ?

You say that the information is only available to InterNACHI members, Why ?

Does InterNACHI have trainers for the EPA RRP Certification ?

Will you guarantee as Director of Communication for InterNACHI that the free EPA RRP Certicication offered by InterNACHI for its members will be able to be completed in the Baltimore, Maryland area ? And that InterNACHI certification will be accepted by the EPA for registration for EPA RRP ?

This really should not be this hard to get a direct answer about InterNACHI accreditation for the EPA RRP Certificate.

[Garry Sorrells]

Oh. I love my job. I'm only a year into a very long-term contract with InterNACHI, so I'm glad it's a job I love. It's more than just a great job though. InterNACHI is succeeding in becoming the world's first, truly global professional association, and it is really exciting to be part of something so big.

Lisa as Director of Communications for InterNACHI you seem to be fixated in arguing with others on which organization is better. At times sounding like a child in the school yard. As a Director of Communications I would think you would strive to take a more professional tone, even as others are not.

You seem to have failed at understanding what your organization is actually offering. At least I hope that it is a failure and not poor (unethical) salesmanship. You are a sales arm of the organization (nothing wrong with that), with a function of promoting your organization. To which I have concluded you are failing at your function.

When asked questions about an offering (EPA RRP Certification) of your organization you provide veiled answers. Answers that you have failed to research or answers that you know will put your organization in a poor light. Hopefully not an answer that would make the recipient to think that your organization is attempting deception or fraud.

Your response that certain information is proprietary to organization members is sad. The excuse of not wanting people like me calling them and asking questions was al disingenuous. I received more information with one e-mail to Mr. Gromicko than all of your combined disguised answers. You act like there was something to hide; and there may be something to hide.

I am referring how you seem to harp on how many areas that InteerNACHI has been certified by one department or another. It is exemplary that an organization strives to attain levels of expertise that they are willing to pass on to others. The problem is over stating your position or what you may be offering. Sales are all about presenting your product in the best manor. The problem comes when you inflate something or make it something that it really is not.

I am directing you to InterNACHI’s Free on-line EPA RRP Certification. While I attempted to have you provide the validity of the actual training and how practical it may be, I failed. Your position to not answer the questions left me uneasy about the entire offering. Sad to say that I now question all other offerings that InterNACHI have for their members. This would not be the case if you had been forthcoming at the first contact. I had considered joining InternNACHI so that I could make an informed opinion by participating in the organization. I also now have reservations about weather it would be worth the time and expense to join.

Now to a less obtuse discussion.

EPA RRP Certification requires 8hrs training.

From the InterNACHI web site:
InterNACHI is an EPA-approved training provider (http://cfpub.epa.gov/flpp/searchrrp.cfm?Applicant_Type=TRAINING&static=true&qlat=40.0521545112133&qlong=-105.19627176225185&Discipline=Renovator&TxtLocation=80301+++&distance_1=50&state_2=&doSearch=Yes).
Six hours of this course is online and free to InterNACHI members
The required two hours of hands-on training is available through the InterNACHI School for a fee.

Email response by Ben Gromicko;
“What we do is find EPA instructors (located in the areas you listed) and negotiate with them to provide you with the required 2-hours hands-on session. There's no guarantee on the fees; the average is about $200 for the trainer. We provide the 6-hours online for free; then we help you get the 2-hours training in your area.”

Conclusion from response is that InterNACHI does not have trainers across the country, as you stated ("...we do is find EPA instructors..."), meaning you do not have them at present. So you could not have given me the name of these trainers since they do not exist at this time. Which I now understand is why you were so reluctant to provide that information. If you had said just told the truth in the first place, you would not have developed this mistrust for you and the InterNACHI Organization.

The free online certificate training to be worth anything will cost $ 200 or more.



Now for the dollars and cents of it all. Reality check.

INDEPENDENT CERTIFICATION TRAINING FOR EPA RRP CERTIFICATION:
One day 8 hr course offered at a location in your State/City $ 145 , $ 199 , $ 250
(Certificate printed at completion that day) (Actual advertised costs) ________________
__ -FINAL COST (one of three prices) $ 145 , $ 199 , $ 250

InterNACHI FREE ON-LINE TRAINING FOR A CERTIFICATE:
InterNACHI Membership Cost $ 365
InterNACHI On-line (free) course, 6 hr, Free to Members
Hands on training to complete InterNACHI On-Line Aprox $ 200
(Certified Training providers unknown)
(Certified Training location unknown)
(Travel time and distance unknown)
(Method to combine classes to obtain Caertificate unknown) _________________

_ _ --FINAL COST $ 200+ to $ 565

If the a reason to join InterNACHI was to save money on EPA RRP certification you will want to think again.

To obtain the certification via InterNACHI the cost is $ 200 +

To obtain independent trained certification $ 145 , $199 , $ 249 actual prices

Conclusion is that it can actually cost you more to utilize InternNACHI On-line course., since there are so many unknown factors to obtaining the certification required to register with the EPA.

When free doesn’t mean free.

If you wanted to obtain the certificate you might as well just go for a one day class and be done with it.

At least you know where you stand at the end of the day.

[Katie Bedard]

It's very frustrating to read what started out as a very useful thread and have it turn into a battle of "who can make the most childish statement first." Next someone will be the 12-year-old disinviting someone else to their birthday party.

For those business-owners out there, it's your perogative how you represent yourself. I hope your clients don't read threads like this.

For people representing larger corporations (you all know whom I am referencing), I hope your CEO doesn't read how your attitude is advertising their business.

Grow up, people. Stick to the subject at hand.

[Lisa Endza]

Katie, InterNACHI is offering the EPA approved hands-on portion free next week (http://www.nachi.org/forum/f25/free-live-training-lead-safe-certified-rrp-course-our-colorado-classroom-59360/). Please come. The online portion is free too and Nick is paying for everyone's hotel rooms.

[Garry Sorrells]

Katie, InterNACHI is offering the EPA approved hands-on portion free next week (http://www.nachi.org/forum/f25/free-live-training-lead-safe-certified-rrp-course-our-colorado-classroom-59360/). Please come. The online portion is free too and Nick is paying for everyone's hotel rooms.

Well folks;
It seem like beating a dead horse, may on the rare occasion, get it to rise.


EPA approved hands-on portion free next week (http://www.nachi.org/forum/f25/free-live-training-lead-safe-certified-rrp-course-our-colorado-classroom-59360/)

(http://www.nachi.org/forum/f25/free-live-training-lead-safe-certified-rrp-course-our-colorado-classroom-59360/)
Free Live Training - Lead-Safe Certified RRP Course in our Colorado Classroom - InterNACHI Message Board (http://www.nachi.org/forum/f25/free-live-training-lead-safe-certified-rrp-course-our-colorado-classroom-59360/)

It is some what curious, in its timing, that there was an offer by Ben to come to Colorado for the hands on training and that they will pick up the room tab.(( If in fact that is what will really happen.)) I posted on 3/22/11 and Ben picked up on it and reacted. (I may have sent him an email copy of 3/22 post) and the offer came out 3/23/11.

It is also curious that Lisa had no response to my positing, well maybe not so curious.

It seems that there is only one location that InterNACI can fulfill the 2hr hands on requirement. As apposed to Lisa's assertion that there were instructors "...across the us ...". Having a hope is different than having it in place.

It seems that Lisa was blowing a lot of smoke, sad to say. I have nothing personal against her or InterNACHI. But at times I do go on a quest for the truth and will just not let it drop.

I just do not like being lied to by anyone. Especially someone who is a spokesman for an organization.


Lisa in the future why not just come out and be truthful. You have jaded one prospective membership in InterNACHI and possibly many others by your statements. I have to date just read the play ground squabbling and name calling with some amusement, but in the future I will have to make sure what is said is backed with facts which are verifiable. Especially since you seem to willing to obfuscate the truth, so sad and unnecessary.



You have positioned yourself and InterNACHI as to be questioned by myself and others on any matter that you present in the future, which is regrettable. At least on my behalf.

It is better to tell the truth and suffer the rejection, than to lie and from that point not be listened to (not just unbelieved but just dismissed).

[Lisa Endza]

Again Garry, the course isn't open to you at any price, so it really doesn't matter does it? Sorry, not my decision.

Calculating the real cost of the course by adding in the cost of membership is as ridiculous as calculating the real cost of the cigarette lighter that came with your new truck by adding up the cost of the cigarette lighter plus the cost of the truck.

[Garry Sorrells]

Again Garry, the course isn't open to you at any price, so it really doesn't matter does it? Sorry, not my decision.

Calculating the real cost of the course by adding in the cost of membership is as ridiculous as calculating the real cost of the cigarette lighter that came with your new truck by adding up the cost of the cigarette lighter plus the cost of the truck.


Lisa,
Again as you have consistently failed to comprehend where my questions were generated from. That of some one looking at what membership in InterNACHI offered. And that of a potential member.

Your age be a factor, but as you get older you learn to question and not take things at face value. Thus I like many others look below the surface to gather a better understanding of any group and any offering that the group makes.

The entire exercise of costing out of obtaining the EPA RRP certification via InterNACHI was just that an exercise of understanding an offering. I do not think I would have bothered if you had been upfront in the beginning. But it seemed so fuzzy.

You should take off your blinders that seem not to allow you to take a non confrontational approach to those that seem to rock your boat.

Would you explain your statement ....
"Again Garry, the course isn't open to you at any price, so it really doesn't matter does it? Sorry, not my decision. "

[Lisa Endza]

Garry, perhaps you skipped over my post #30 where I wrote


We have to be careful because we've been burned in the past by having some of our free membership benefits each individually worth more than the cost to join InterNACHI. This attracted non-inspectors into InterNACHI who only tried to join to access one or two high-value benefits and who had no true intention of ever offering inspection services, which the boss man doesn't like.

[Garry Sorrells]

Garry, perhaps you skipped over my post #30 where I wrote

Lisa, you seemed to forget or were wearing you confrontational blinders again.

I prefaced that the questions were based on a membership and a person doing inspections.

Still it seem your response is all about confrontation.

[Dan Harris]

To anyone following this thread if I am not being clear or there is a better way on what I am asking from Lisa and InterNACHI,

Please give me a hand !

I'll try to give it a shot:)
1st, who are you really ? I noticed you joined this site in 2008, you have over 300 posts.
I searched your past posts in an attempt to see why nicko will not let you join their club.. I did not see any posts where you were bashing nicki, I don't see anything stating you are an ASHI or NAHI member.. I see several posts that sure look like you may be an inspector.
I don't see any posts that state, or indicate you are only interested in one or two items, I didn't see any thing that indicates you know it all, and would not use several nacho offerings.
Soooo I guess you must look funny and lisa is afraid you would not be a good person tp reprensent her club.

[Garry Sorrells]

I'll try to give it a shot:)
1st, who are you really ? I noticed you joined this site in 2008, you have over 300 posts.
I searched your past posts in an attempt to see why nicko will not let you join their club.. I did not see any posts where you were bashing nicki, I don't see anything stating you are an ASHI or NAHI member.. I see several posts that sure look like you may be an inspector.
I don't see any posts that state, or indicate you are only interested in one or two items, I didn't see any thing that indicates you know it all, and would not use several nacho offerings.
Soooo I guess you must look funny and lisa is afraid you would not be a good person tp reprensent her club.


Dan, I am starting to think that it may be ethnically or racially motivated.

[Garry Sorrells]

In general having participated with groups like the LIONS Club, Optimist Club boy Scouts of America and others I do not get into which is better than the other. It is up to the person to decide with whom they associate with and for what reasons.

I just like to be informed about what any group offers its members. Especially if I take an interest to become involved in that group or organization.

There are times that my interest is peaked when it is difficult to get a straight answer from someone or that the answers are suspect. Especial if it is a public or business organization.

Unlike in religion where you first must believe and then you will understand.

I tend to first want to understand so that I may believe.

[Dan Harris]

[QUOTE=Garry Sorrells;1639

I tend to first want to understand so that I may believe.[/QUOTE]


BINGO!!!!! I think you got it. He knows if someone understands or questions what his club is about, that person or others that start asking questions will not join his club.
In nickis world as a non-member you are forbidden to question anything he says. After you pay him you can question him, only after you worship and praise him so new members will see your posts and join.

It looks like the only way to get in is, change your name , take his on-line quiz and fail it several times. After he sees you don't have a clue he can have the honor of certifing you, and telling the public how he made another rookie sucessful.
Then you will need to put his logo on everything you have and post serveral times here how great nicki and his free stuff is.:D

OBTW: After you finally pass his on-line certificiation quiz, if you really want to be a hero, send nicko an email telling him how great his club is, he will then post it for all of the other members to see..:D

If you tell him your from a country, [ it doesn't matter if the houses there are straw huts], that nobody ever heard of you will even get a nicki special post telling everyone to welcome you ..

[Garry Sorrells]

Dan,
The issue is not with Nick nor him responding to questions. I have had some communications with him and all were informative, professional and without any confrontation.

It is about Lisa not responding in a non-confrontational manor and without misdirecting, obfuscating, misleading, or using other methods as to evading a truthful answer.

Still would like to know why :
"... Again Garry, the course isn't open to you at any price, so it really doesn't matter does it? Sorry, not my decision. ..."

As Director of Communications if seems that there is a problem communicating. At least with me. It may be the generation gap. I am not a Twitter-LOL-texting person.

[Rick Cantrell]

"How to Report RRP Violations"

Reporting RRP Violations (http://www.forrenovationpros.com/web/online/Features/How-to-Report-RRP-Violations/5$1542)

[Wayne Carlisle]

I'm one of those AHJ. We do not enforce the regulations since it is a Federal law. Just like OSHA, we do not enforce OSHA rules.

It is the contractors responsibility to make the homeowner aware of the law and provide them with a pamphlet.

We have enough unfunded mandates from the State little alone trying to enforce all of the Federal laws.

[Garry Sorrells]

Hear nothing. See nothing. Say nothing.

Same mantra across the US.

Until all contractors get with the program the public will not feel the actual cost of the regulation.