electric baseboard heat

[Robert Mattison]

Hi everyone!

My question is about Markel Aluminum Fin electric baseboard that runs on
either 240/208 voltage, at 250 watts per foot.


Did or does the NEC past and present permit the installation of such heat
as describe above, to wall, that is short in height. And where above
you have glass doors that open onto a deck. The deck in question is
at the rear of a condo I am doing.


Please cite code the code art. and the code edition, if this is not allow.

And many thanks, to all that take a shot at answering this thread.

[Bob Elliott]

Hi everyone!

My question is about Markel Aluminum Fin electric baseboard that runs on
either 240/208 voltage, at 250 watts per foot.


Did or does the NEC past and present permit the installation of such heat
as describe above, to wall, that is short in height. And where above
you have glass doors that open onto a deck. The deck in question is
at the rear of a condo I am doing.


Please cite code the code art. and the code edition, if this is not allow.

And many thanks, to all that take a shot at answering this thread.

You get better replies with pictures.
Carry a camera during inspections with you and you will get better response.

[John Kogel]

Hello Robert. You mean like this, this and this? If it is wrong, 1000's of people are in trouble, including me. :D

[ken horak]

The problem with those low windows, is the curtains and blinds that end up laying on the heaters. Look at the photo the cords for the blinds are laying on the top of the hearter

[Bob Elliott]

Hello Robert. You mean like this, this and this? If it is wrong, 1000's of people are in trouble, including me. :D

OK if there is a 2" clearance John but the poster mentions at the threshold involving some kind of step up.
We need a picture as this could be a potential trip hazard.
We are all professional Home Inspectors so what is so hard about getting a picture ?

[John Kogel]

OK if there is a 2" clearance John but the poster mentions at the threshold involving some kind of step up.
We need a picture as this could be a potential trip hazard.
We are all professional Home Inspectors so what is so hard about getting a picture ?We are not sure about Mr. Mattison. He never posts a pic, so I put a few up for reference.

Those strings on the heater in pic 1 are metal chains from torn vertical blinds. "Keep draperies clear" goes in the report automatically.
90% of the homes I inspect have baseboard heaters in them. Hydro-electric power.

[Robert Mattison]

Thanks, John Kogel

The middle picture, is what I was talking about.

Thanks for putting then up.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

The glazing pictured would be required to be safety glazing. Listed Instructions reguards to spacing-offset from glazing, restrictions and limitations as to exposure from moisture, etc. off-sets from openings (doors-thresholds, etc.) if threshold is a covered or non-covered landing, would be indicated by virtue of the listing(s) and manufacturer's instructions.Obstructions and clearances for EEROs, passageways, even secondary exits, operable windows and doors likely covered under fire/safety/occupancy/building codes.I've seen baseboard proud heating (electric and hydronic based) in front of solitary operable side bedroom EERO windows many times, didn't make it correct.

Hard to see the details of indicated middle picture with contrast.

Presume the baseboard type heating has been installed "in the wall" or rather "in the riser" of a "step up" (think stair) threshold. I cannot tell if the balcony/patio floor/landing is of the same elevation as the interior room or at/near the elevation of the threshold.

Threshold elevation limits (trip/fall hazards) exist in the code(s) There are also rules for landings in the stair code(s), even for non-swinging doors.

[John Kogel]

The middle pic, pic #2 is from a new condo built in 2009. The deck is at the same level as the interior floor and has a partial roof cover, deck above.

[Glenn Mann]

Hi everyone!

My question is about Markel Aluminum Fin electric baseboard that runs on
either 240/208 voltage, at 250 watts per foot.


Did or does the NEC past and present permit the installation of such heat
as describe above, to wall, that is short in height. And where above
you have glass doors that open onto a deck. The deck in question is
at the rear of a condo I am doing.


Please cite code the code art. and the code edition, if this is not allow.

And many thanks, to all that take a shot at answering this thread.

Robert, checkout Article 110-3 (b) of the NEC -- pick just about whatever year you want, the requirement has been around for decades.

[brian schmitt]

The middle pic, pic #2 is from a new condo built in 2009. The deck is at the same level as the interior floor and has a partial roof cover, deck above.
reread hg's post about level landings and doors. that set-up is just plain wrong!,but you knew that?:D

[brian schmitt]

Brian,
Their codes North of the border are different, so from a Calif point of view you would be correct. Looking at the center pic, that looks like a 3 ft. slider which scales the glazing at 12 ft in width and the fenestration glazing to floor ratio would probably not comply to most US energy zoning requirements if not triple pane. Also there must be a receptacle outlet somewhere along the 12 ft. base because it is not legally a broken wall. JMO not knowing local Canadian codes.
ben,
i think i would be correct from a usa point of view:D

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Since the original poster asking the question is from Vermont, which last time I checked was still in the US, I think we might want to stick with the codes applicable in the US, since he did ask for a presumably usable and applicable to Vermont, USA references.Floor box receptacles can be used to meet the linear spacing requirements brought up by others.

[Philip]

We know the heater was placed there to combat the 'cold wall effect', but after reading the replies I still do not know if it is within code. If it is not within code was it in the original architect's plan and the building inspectors ok'd it. If you call it out as wrong are you not saying the architect, electrician, and city-county building inspectors are wrong? Or was it installed after everyone looked at the building and is wrong.:confused:

[Jerry Peck]

Did or does the NEC past and present permit the installation of such heat as describe above, to wall, that is short in height. And where above you have glass doors that open onto a deck.

I've been following this thread and, with all the other posts about all the other aspects, this one nails it: (even though it is not an NEC reference)


I might add the step riser height 7 3/4" for the sill has a maximum IRC R311.5.3.1 that is exceeded when the heater 8.5" height stated by the manufacturer instructions are in conflict.

Not only that, but the heater projecting out beyond the tread (for lack of a better term to call that area) at the sill creates a trip and fall hazard. Think of having a stair and across the top or bottom tread is a baseboard heater which projects out from the riser, you know that is going to be a trip and fall hazard.

The only difference here is that there is one step in the stair.

[Glenn Mann]

Robert, these are probably not allowed per manufacturers' instructions. Every electric baseboard heater that I have seen has carried with it a warning label or set of instructions delineating a minimum clearance between the electric baseboard heater and appurtenant draperies, furniture, and /or other items. Moreover, to my knowledge, no electric baseboard heater is listed as a component for a step riser. You can use Article 110.3 (B) of the National Electrical Code is cited below.

NEC 2008, 110.3, Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
...
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

Robert, you may also want to check the Life Safety Code, NFPA 101, regarding primary and secondary means of egress requirements for the applicable structure type.

[Robert Mattison]

Thanks, to everyone who has answer my thread.

I now have the answer I was looking for.

But to others out there, please feel free to share your thoughts.

My hope is that everyone got something out this, beside me. R.M.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

R.M.

I'm remembering a six-inch (6") high markel less than 3" depth. Think that's still out there face in and out - might just be listed commercial. Might be a 1" clearance over top?

Might be thinking hydronic electric or a wall convector with semi-flush or full-flush wall mount trims, those I recall taller more like 8-11" H, closer to 4".

Trim options front in front out..

Both convector and hydronic electric could have aluminum fins.


You'd need to check for in-the-wall installation information/flush trim kits.

I presume that is the case, or rather in-the-riser with a flush face which is protected with a proper threshold and nosing and a different base/box top trim housing (with a top) rather like a long boxed "C" chanel. Like the taller 4125s or 3900s with no projecting louvers beyond 3/4-1" shy of the nosing or lip of the threshold.

You'd also need to check height clearances if modifying or alternate install of a 2900 (6"H less than 3" d) series is or was allowed (or different older model?) I'm guessing that's what you're looking at at 250 W/ft @ 240 V, and have an idea regarding vintage of the installation. Don't know if the products were listed for Residential ETL not UL, right?).

IIRC Vermont allowed 8"+. Presume residential.

Sure would be easier if you could throw some information out - Did you pop the Left cover and check the listing, model, and date information? Also curious if this was line (240v) thermostat or lower voltage thermostat.

If there is projection or standard baseboard style it would be an encroachment for egress issue, Unless a semi-recess mount, covered mount met clearance, semi-flush or flush mount, or a tread/threshold over top - it could be a trip hazard, etc.

If its a unit listed "not for residential" and its in a residential setting - that too would be an issue.

[Robert Mattison]

Thanks H.G. for that very useful thread your recently posted.

Also thanks to Glenn & Jerry.

With the information I have gather, I have decide to bring the engineer
on board with this project.


All heat is control by switching on leg of the 240 volt circuit, using
a low voltage thermost controling a switch heating relay.