TPRV and gas line connected

[Tim Fuller]

I am a bit new to the home inspection field but here is one that befuddles me.
A dear friend in CA sent me her inspection report and asked me to read it. I got to the part about the water heater and the picture revealed that the gas line was indeed running down the wall and T'd into the TPR valve then CSST to the gas valve.
The inspector raised the question that this did not appear to be plumbed correctly. At a later time a licensed plumber reviewed it and stated that this was acceptable.
The TPRV did not appear to be plumbed anywhere else except to the gas line. Has anyone else seen or heard of this type of installation?
The logic as it was explained to me is that if the TPRV 'blows off' then it will extinguish the flame and protect the occupants.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

As Michael Thomas might say ...
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/worthless.gif

... so to speak.


Admit that I suspect your "word picture" is not accurate, nor correctly relaying what is present.

Possibilities that come to mind which might contribute to confusion....


Mistaking a gas appliance connector for csst;



Mistaking corregated or braided water connector for gas;



Mistaking a "California" seismic gas valve for a TPRV;



Confused by pressence of another safety system, example, a leak detector safety shut off system which includes closing the cold water inlet AND the gas supply (such as a Watts Floodsafe system for GAS supplied storage type water heaters)

Confusing PEX or other potable plumbing material with gas pipe.

....and others.

California requires flexible connections to storage water heaters and strapping for earthquake activities. TPRVs have same requirements as elsewhere.

TPRV discharge outlet should NEVER be directed in area of burner, plate, and "idea" that same would or should extinguish flames and that this would some how be safe is WRONG. TPRV discharge is never connected to gas line.

Looking forward to your posting the referenced pictures.

[Bob Elliott]

This post makes no sense.

[Dom D'Agostino]

Sounds like a Watts 210 valve (http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=3435) by the description.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Yes, another possibility for the overall catagory of automatic gas shutoff valves - however a TPRV would still be present; and generally 210s are for vessles dedicated to hydronic heating not domestic potable distribution, and wouldn't have a discharge as indicated by the OP.We could guess all day as to the confusing and doubtfully accurate or complete description by the OP, with out pictures, and with second/third.fourth-hand descriptions its not really worth exploring further.

[Dom D'Agostino]

Yes, another possibility for the overall catagory of automatic gas shutoff valves - however a TPRV would still be present; and generally 210s are for vessles dedicated to hydronic heating not domestic potable distribution,

Yes and No. Plenty of water heaters have Watts 210 valves, and they serve the domestic water supply, not hydronic heating (not much hot water heat in Florida or California, by the way).

Also, the system would need a PRV if a 210 is installed, not a TPRV, and it can be installed elsewhere in the piping.


with out pictures, and with second/third.fourth-hand descriptions its not really worth exploring further. I agree with that.

Dom.

[Tim Fuller]

Sorry about the pics. My technical advisor just explained to me how to get a picture off of a pdf file. I only have the one from the report that is not real good. You can see galvanized pipe that is T'd into what would seem to be the TPRV or PRV location then running down the water heater then becoming the CSST to the gas valve.

The post wasn't completely worthless. You did point me towards something that I have not seen in TN and that is the Watts 210 gas shutoff valve. Then I could follow the directions for plumbing it that Watts publishes. This site has been wonderful for improving my education in home inspection. I appreciate all the great advise.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Dom. A.:

Your "by the way" claim that there isn't much hydronic based "heat" in California is frankly FALSE. There are hydronic coil with air handlers, and other forms of hydronic heat employed in many areas of California. Many parts of California have more than an occasional need for heating. As far as hydronic being rare in Florida, or a heating system in general, I also disagree.

In fact large chillers and boiler or water heater for water coils for both heated and super cooled water was and is still employed. Hydronic radiant in-floor not uncommonly rare north FL either.

I further take "issue" with your photographed example of a Watts 210-5, as not being correct or "defect-free" as installed in your picture. It is not code compliant, Standards, WH, watts, or connectors, mfg instructions, listings, or safe as installed in your picture.

Perhaps other than a teeny-tiny sized photograph will make my concerns/issues more obvious:

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/attachments/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/19953d1287257502-tprv-gas-line-connected-watts210.jpg

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Sorry about the pics. My technical advisor just explained to me how to get a picture off of a pdf file. I only have the one from the report that is not real good. You can see galvanized pipe that is T'd into what would seem to be the TPRV or PRV location then running down the water heater then becoming the CSST to the gas valve.

The post wasn't completely worthless. You did point me towards something that I have not seen in TN and that is the Watts 210 gas shutoff valve. Then I could follow the directions for plumbing it that Watts publishes. This site has been wonderful for improving my education in home inspection. I appreciate all the great advise.

1. What you see after that lower elbow and valve is NOT site installed supply "CSST", that is a pre-manufactured gas appliance connector. Completely different standards, etc. They (gas appliance connectors) are NEVER to be referred to by a componant material - the standards for such are NOT THE SAME; neither are the code provisions which govern their installation or use.

It appears that atop may ALSO be a pre-manufactured gas appliance connector overtop of the water heater - which would be completely improper and is never allowed to have gas appliance connectors in series (even if interupted by different materials), they are NOT a substitute for gas supply piping.

Some of the "clues" which would indicate a pre-manufactured gas appliance connector - the manufacturer's label - engraved number on the nut - a metalic ring. I have marked an enlarged version of your posted photo pointing out the paper labels FYI.

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/attachments/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/19952d1287256532-tprv-gas-line-connected-new-20picture-20-281-29.jpg

2. The manual shut-off valve following that elbow and before the gas appliance connector, and that "hard pipe" is not properly supported. It and the "hard pipe" above is suspended by the stem of the temperature- automatic gas shut-off valve into the gas-fired storage type water heater: that is not allowed. It is further reliant for restraint by the earthquake strapping of the water heater.

3. There is no sediment trap following the gas supply system "drop" and valve, which compromises both the code and the WH mfg instructions (and the OEM supplied gas valve or replacement valve.

4. Highly suspect of the materials employed for the "hard pipe" portion of this gas supply.

5. Missing certification tag for temperature triggered gas shut-off valve.

6. Must meet "California" Lead-Free certifications which is/are stricter than generalized LF certifications.

7. California State Architecture has responsibility to list/approve all automatic gas shut-off valves - they have only approved three "types" - this "type" is not one of them.

8. Cat. I water heater have concerns regarding connections above WH and draft hood - worthiness AND proximity. Both the timer/leak detector/shut-off cold supply valve AND the gas line encroach on the 12" inch or so above NO combustible and free- air-space clearance above the top of the water heater and away from the draft hood and the wider clearance out from the single-wall ("flue") vent connector. The transition six inches or so above the draft hood is also incorrect.

9. We cannot confirm the presence of a properly installed PRV, we cannot identify a safety relief discharge in the photo.

10. You are right - it is a crappy picture! The installation is not defect-free - there are at least 2 safety and code violations present.

[Dom D'Agostino]

HG, you are a true piece of "work".

The picture I posted was a representative sample to illustrate the Watts product to those folks that have never seen one.

I never claimed the photo showed anything else, good or bad, or any defects, real or imagined.

And by the way, my last name begins with a "D" not an "A".

Now get over yourself, I'm tired of your demeaning behavior on this board. :mad:

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

HG, you are a true piece of "work".

The picture I posted was a representative sample to illustrate the Watts product to those folks that have never seen one.

I never claimed the photo showed anything else, good or bad, or any defects, real or imagined.

And by the way, my last name begins with a "D" not an "A".

Now get over yourself, I'm tired of your demeaning behavior on this board. :mad:

Your photo is a prime example of how NOT to illustrate the Watts 210-5. If you are of the opinion that it is a "representative sample", I take issue with your "representation", I contest its validity as a "sample", and dispute the correctness of your "Illustration".

Unfortunate you took any "real or imagined" offense at an abbreviation. There was no offense intended. In the future, I won't bother addressing at all. Without invitation you have both addressed and refered to me in all maner of ways, sprinkled repeatedly these last few months all over the board. In the instant, you type "HG" no puctuation, and no W, and you make personal and disparaging remarks.

With all "due respect", there is a time and a place and this is neither. I suggest that if you are tired, you might consider taking a rest; if you are bothered, skip or ignore it; if you are disturbed, P.M. it, report it, e-mail it; or keep it to yourself.

[Jerry Peck]

Your photo is a prime example of how NOT to illustrate the Watts 210-5. If you are of the opinion that it is a "representative sample", I take issue with your "representation", I contest its validity as a "sample", and dispute the correctness of your "Illustration".

Unfortunate you took any "real or imagined" offense at an abbreviation. There was no offense intended. In the future, I won't bother addressing at all. Without invitation you have both addressed and refered to me in all maner of ways, sprinkled repeatedly these last few months all over the board. In the instant, you type "HG" no puctuation, and no W, and you make personal and disparaging remarks.

With all "due respect", there is a time and a place and this is neither. I suggest that if you are tired, you might consider taking a rest; if you are bothered, skip or ignore it; if you are disturbed, P.M. it, report it, e-mail it; or keep it to yourself.

Sheesh ... look who is "telling other posters how to post, what to post, what and how to say, etc", and all the " abnoxious, goading, baiting posts, repleat with "ankle-biting" and "back-stabbing" remarks ".

[Dom D'Agostino]

Your photo is a prime example of how NOT to illustrate the Watts 210-5.


I know you love to hear yourself talk, but you may want to learn how to read.

The photo shows the valve. Period. The OP had obviously never seen a Watts 210, so I thought I'd post a photo.

Dissect it all you want, but is is still a Watts 210 valve.

Have a great day.

[Garry Sorrells]

Tim
These guys get fired up at times.
You gave it your best shot at explanation. Then came up with pict. Good enough.

Link to Watts 210-5 installation instructions.

http://media.wattswater.com/1910217.pdf

[Tim Fuller]

I tried to put the pic in the OP but found myself technically challenged beyond my 10pm capability. I have been following IN for about a year and I have just about figured out these guys mean well and are passionate about what they do. I knew I was going to take a lot of heat for lack of a photo but I still got good direction to follow about what I was seeing. I have been inspecting houses for family and friends for 30 years and never have I seen this before. And I also didn't know that people would actually pay you to do this type of work. This is a great gig!!!

If someone here was intending to insult me then they need to work harder than these postings. If they really want to start a fight just call me late for dinner and they will find themselves in some hot water.