TPR pipe [Archive] - InspectionNews

H.G. Watson, Sr.

11-25-2010, 10:54 AM

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/attachments/heating-ventilation-air-conditioning-hvac-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/20421d1290671882-tpr-pipe-mvc-007s.jpg

Pictured copper assembly is not a gravity DISCHARGE (note right side is lower than left).

You have a defiance of gravity drainage situation - a trapped situation, a cross contamination potential situation (with TPRV discharge ingulfed in the drain) and yet another "situation" defying california plumbing code with regards the material used for the drain (not the discharge), unapproved material - missing air gap, indirect within the conditioned or semi-conditioned (should it be exterior to the conditioned envelope WH closet) etc.

This is an aspect of the applicable safety and codes language which has not changed and is violated in the pictured installation.

Note your location is California. This topic has been addressed, complete with (I believe to be still current) California code sitations (at least till the 2011 next eff. date, if I'm recalling that correctly) elsewhere on this forum, which if I'm recalling correctly, the current are still based on the Uniform Plumbing and Mechanical codes with California ammendments.

There is printing on both sides of the yellow tag, perhaps its been a while since you read one.

BTW, a 1/4 bend, offset or elbow is a 90-degree change in orientation not a 45. Greater than a 1/4 bend, offset, or elbow would be greater than 90 degrees, not less than, thus as pictured elbows or 90s and a 135 offset or change in direction before improperly terminating the improperly, illegally, unsafely fashioned TPRV discharge INTO the reported as "ABS pipe" drain(age) which again questionable discription.

TPR valve discharge terminates prior to a drain. It must be an indirect/airgap termination - this is not only to provide pressure/temp ENERGY release/dissapation to atmosphere prior to drainage, and/or to visualize discharge; but to prevent contamination of the potable water system and the storage vessle - via the unclosed valve which does NOT prevent backflow, esp. when corroded, scaled, and partially unclosed/open.

Usually designing a correction is far beyond the scope of an HI, especially in a state which regulates plumbing and mechanical (even one that does not regulate HI); however your contention that correction must involve "busting the slab" I find questionable, to say the least.

I suspect the "hole in the floor" may have a purpose other than floor drain as do not see a grid, guard, etc. and with the upper portion of this alcove, closet or cabinet having been closed, and the "opening" seemingly lower than the top of the water heater, suspect lack of sufficient make up/combustion air. I am also doubful/dubious of some of your other systems componants identifications.

Seemingly insufficient earthquake strapping (nothing pictured at lower half from "floor" view - upper strap seems insufficiently secured or at upper 1/3. Connections at top are not flexable connection as viewed, etc. Again note location stated on profile.

Admit assuming natural gas fueled and at lower elevations due to stated location on profile.

Check the current California Plumbing Code, used to read something like this:

- 608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper pipe and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to the outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610 mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152 mm) abovethe ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building's crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.

Numerous other citations applicable, to this inproper, and unsafe installation; not to mention the installation instructions for the TPRV, the storage type water heater, and others.

Suspect unpermitted, uninspected replacement and upsize, by unskilled, unqualified individual.

Benjamin Thompson

11-25-2010, 12:30 PM

I would recommend they install a pex drain line.

H.G. Watson, Sr.

11-26-2010, 09:50 AM

I would recommend they install a pex drain line.

Interesting, since, IIRC California Plumbing Code prohibits PEX from being installed within 18" of a connection to a water heater,
CPC 604.11.2
Water Heater Connections. PEX tubing shall NOT be installed within the first eighteen (18) inches (457 mm) of piping connected to a water heater.

Internal diameter is more restrictive than CPC allows in associated sizes.
and, PEX is sold as coiled tubing not straight length TUBE, and as the pictured WH and discharge is greater than 32" in length, and as so many municipalities (AHJs in California) require horizontal to vertical changes in direction of PEX tubing be sleeved in long sweep PVC, etc. and PEX is required to be secured 32" oc, and THERMAL expansion and contraction of oh, approx 3/16" PER FOOT is required, and securement to an approved AIR GAP device would be required at its (the TPRV discharge) termination to an approved drain - oh and the intermixing of materials outside of an approved manifold, etc. And CPC requires pressure testing of 100 PSI OR One-and-one-half times the system or componant exposure, which ever is higher.

Nobody wants TPRV discharge "a-flipping" and "a-flopping" around when exposed to high temp or high pressure relief evacuation, or expansion/contraction to dislodge from airgap - or so restricted that it fails or causes another componant to fail, when subjected to forces of thermal expansion or contraction.

AFAIK, and IMO, both unwise and not compliant in CA.

Ian Page

11-27-2010, 01:07 AM

Thank you all for your observations and information. A special kudos to Mr. Watson who consistently continues to provide more information than necessary. You are correct of course re. the 45 Vs 90 - My error/my bad. Though I appreciate all the extraneous verbage, pointing out issues (some assumed) which I already know to be of defect, no solution to the matter on hand was forthcoming. So I wonder what would your solution be?

It's probably pretty obvious to most (I hope all) Home Inspectors that this particular installation of the TPR line is just plain wrong on many levels. There are other issues also but my post was with regard to the TPR discharge only. However, any one of those issues in connection with the WH would have (did) cause my recommendation of a complete review by a licensed and qualified plumber to correct/realign the TPR pipe (and other issues), so as to be code compliant and non-hazardous.

I do not recall the age of the WH (installed 2003, I believe) but the TPR discharge should have been made compliant for that time at the very least. Having said that, and assuming the work is performed for today's standard, does anyone have any idea how it would be accomplished?

The WH stands approximately 18" above the (slab) laundry floor. Use of the existing ABS pipe in the side wall, amongst other issues, fails to provide an observable outlet point. The hole on the cabinet floor (adjacent to the WH) may or may not be the 'other end' of the hole adjacent to the dryer vent outside - and in any event - is below grade. Discharging the TPR onto the laundry floor, sans drain is simply not safe and would likely cause damage. Turning the WH so that the TPR and sidewall drain are aligned is not feasable as it puts the controls and access panel to the rear - thereby inaccessible. So what is the solution?

Mr. Watson please re-read and comprehend my original post, I did not recommend 'busting through the slab' as you so eloquently stated - it was merely an offering of a possible but unlikely solution. I accept that this is not a DIY forum but with so many WHs observed, I am wondering how this install has been remedied. Perhaps a Plumber might chime in...

ip

Bob Harper

11-27-2010, 06:57 AM

You could talk to the AHJ about a few options. One might be to move the ABS drain to the front and install a basin where discharge could be observed, provide an air gap yet drain effectively. Another option we've used locally is to discharge into a basin that then dumps into a high temp. condensate pump with overflow alarm wires and heater hose. These wires are tied into a wet switch in the basin to alert the homeowner if either the basin gets wet or the pump overflows. This discharge is then pumped away to a remote open drain using heater hose. The pump is the same used for Honeywell True Steam humidifier's drainage. You also have the option of rotating the WH if that helps with the angles but you still need that drain up front.
With the entire unit sitting on a platform, you could place a drain pan connected to the ABS first then set the WH in a separate pan with a hockey puck alarm to drain into it. I've seen units place in shower pans for drainage before. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

Bruce Adams

11-27-2010, 08:55 AM

Ian
There is nothing right about this installation.other than the size of the pipe. You can go to the Watts web site and see there installation instructions of which all manufacture here in the United States follow. You can go to the ASMI site and for a fee can get the same information.
IBC-International Building Code; P2803.6.1 requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
!. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater
3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall full size to the air gap.
4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
5. Discharge to the floor to an indirect waste receptor, or to the outdoors.. Where discharged to the outdoors in an area subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
8. Not be trapped.
9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
10. Not terminated more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor.or waste receptor.
11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested and approved. for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1

A newer water heater should meet these standards.
Bruce

Bruce Adams

11-27-2010, 09:05 AM

Ian
After looking at your pictures it looks as if the gas vent does not meet the requirement of either the National gas or International Building Code. See chapter 24 in the International Building Code.
Bruce

Widdershins Saunders

11-27-2010, 01:09 PM

Internal diameter is more restrictive than CPC allows in associated sizes.
and, PEX is sold as coiled tubing not straight length TUBE

Uponor/Wirsbo has been selling Pex tubing from 1/2" thru 2" in 20 foot straight lengths for a good 6 or 7 years.

Widdershins Saunders

11-27-2010, 01:17 PM

The codes *USED TO* require the drain line to discharge to the outdoors or to an indirect waste receptor (such as a floor drain), however, the codes now require the discharge to be *in the same room or space* as the water heater is located in, and, the discharge is allowed to be onto the floor (but is still not allowed to discharge such that it could cause personal injury - "Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.").

I thought we cleared this bit of misinformation up a few weeks ago, Jerry.

To the best of my knowledge, the State of Florida is still using the 2007 edition of the Florida Plumbing Code, which states in chapter 5, section 504.6:

The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall:

1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.

2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.

4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.

5. Discharge to the floor, to the water heater pan, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where dis- charging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.

7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.

8. Not be trapped.

9. Be installed so as to flow by gravity.

10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.

11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such piping.

12. Not have valves or tee fittings.

13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section 605.4 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME AI12.4.1.

There were a number of revisions to the 2007 code adopted in January of 2009, but none of those revisions supersede Chapter 5 Section 504.6

Jerry Peck

11-27-2010, 03:07 PM

I thought we cleared this bit of misinformation up a few weeks ago, Jerry.

I thought we did too, Widdershins.

I've added underlining and bold, and made the text ALL CAPS to highlight the important part:

To the best of my knowledge, the State of Florida is still using the 2007 edition of the Florida Plumbing Code, which states in chapter 5, section 504.6:

The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall:

1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.

2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.

4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.

5. Discharge to the floor, to the water heater pan, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where dis- charging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.

7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.

8. Not be trapped.

9. Be installed so as to flow by gravity.

10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.

11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such piping.

12. Not have valves or tee fittings.

13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section 605.4 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME AI12.4.1.

There were a number of revisions to the 2007 code adopted in January of 2009, but none of those revisions supersede Chapter 5 Section 504.6

Now, and explained BEFORE when I thought we CLEARED THIS UP BEFORE (as you stated), the only way to discharge "or to the outdoors" AND to meet "through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater" would be for the water heater to be LOCATED "outdoors", and, of course, the water heater would need to be listed and labeled for installation "outdoors". There are some special water heaters which are listed and labeled for installation "outdoors", but the water heaters under discussion are not those types and ARE NOT installed "outdoors".

Thus, the "or to the outdoors" option IS NOT AVAILABLE to 99.999999% of the water heater installations.

Now, though, THE WASTE RECEPTOR'S DRAIN LINE which the T&P discharge pipe drains to may, indeed, discharge to "the outdoors". But that is not the discharge line being discussed, that is a different discharge line.

Jerry Peck

11-27-2010, 03:17 PM

One might be to move the ABS drain to the front and install a basin where discharge could be observed, provide an air gap yet drain effectively.

To my knowledge, ABS is not rated to receive the discharge from the T&P discharge drain line. Even the water heater drain pan's drain line is not allowed to be ABS, it is required to be a material which is suitable for use as potable water, which includes that which is rated for the temperature of the hot water.

- P2801.5.1 Pan size and drain. The pan shall be not less than 11/2 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 3/4 inch (19 mm). Piping for safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Table P2904.5.

Table P2904.5 includes, among other materials, PEX, CPVC, copper, stainless steel pipe, poly bute, galvanized steel, brass, and some others, but it does not include PVC, ABS and those which are only approved for DWV piping in which the water is presumed to not be as hot.

Bruce Adams

11-27-2010, 04:59 PM

[quote=Jerry Peck;151997]To my knowledge, ABS is not rated to receive the discharge from the T&P discharge drain line. Even the water heater drain pan's drain line is not allowed to be ABS, it is required to be a material which is suitable for use as potable water, which includes that which is rated for the temperature of the hot water.

- P2801.5.1 Pan size and drain. The pan shall be not less than 11/2 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 3/4 inch (19 mm). Piping for safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Table P2904.5.

Table P2904.5 includes, among other materials, PEX, CPVC, copper, stainless steel pipe, poly bute, galvanized steel, brass, and some others, but it does not include PVC, ABS and those which are only approved for DWV piping in which the water is presumed to not be as hot.

Standard Pex is not allowed according to Watts. I know that there is going to be allot of plumbers out there that are going to say it can be and they do is all the time. .As the fittings interior diameter is less than 3/4 inch. And according to the code the pipe cannot be downsized nor restricted. The only PEX that is allowed is the PEX discharge pipe supplied by the manufacture for that purpose. As the fittings are the correct size for the valve. And the pipe has to be secured to the tank. I have yet been able to find anywhere that you can find that correct fitting by itself. Nor a tool to stretch the PEX over the fitting and properly secure it.

Jerry Peck

11-27-2010, 05:34 PM

As the fittings interior diameter is less than 3/4 inch. And according to the code the pipe cannot be downsized nor restricted.

That is referring to "nominal" sises, thus 3/4" copper = 3/4" iron pipe (even though the internal diameter of the 3/4" copper is much smaller - so, is copper acceptable?) = 3/4" CPVC = 3/4" PEX = 3/4" etc.

And the pipe has to be secured to the tank.

Something I point out to plumbers all the time - the allowable spacing for supporting and securing the material which is used.

Bob Harper

11-27-2010, 07:04 PM

JP--the correct table is P2905.5 ;-)

This table is for 'water distribution pipe, which seems counterintuitive. This is for a 'drain' yet the code specs pipe for 'distribution. My question is, where does this effluent go? I mean, how do you discharge 'distribution'? Now, what makes even less sense is the temp. ratings of this chart http://www.plasticpipe.org/pdf/tn-11_temperatue_limits_for_thermoplastic_non_pressur e.pdf

So, I have another question: Can you use a material approved in table P2905.5 for a certain distance then switch to another material or does it have to remain this pipe until the point of discharge into the DWV or ground---no, wait a minute, you cannot discharge into the DWV or ground because they are not on the approved list.

This is assine!

Bruce Adams

11-27-2010, 07:35 PM

[quote=Jerry Peck;152004][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font]

That is referring to "nominal" sises, thus 3/4" copper = 3/4" iron pipe (even though the internal diameter of the 3/4" copper is much smaller - so, is copper acceptable?) = 3/4" CPVC = 3/4" PEX = 3/4" etc.

Jerry
Pipe is measured from the interior. 3/4 copper pipe is going to be 3/4 interior or 0.75. Copper tubing is measured by the exterior. The interior of the 3/4 copper tubing is going to be about 1/2 inch and is not allowed to be used for the for the drain pipe. There is some pipe out there that is metric that is questionable. You can take a mike and measure the interior of the pipe and it will be very close to 0.75. If you ever get a chance visit a pipe manufacturer. You will see that they check size of pipe quite often.

Jerry Peck

11-27-2010, 07:35 PM

JP--the correct table is P2905.5 ;-)

Bob,

Depends ...

Without referencing a code edition, it (the table) could be either :) . I posted the code section from the 2006 IRC, that section has been renumbered in the 2009 IRC - but the table is the same. ;) I should have specified that I was posting from the 2006 IRC.

This table is for 'water distribution pipe, which seems counterintuitive.

Correct, that table is for 'water distribution pipe', and while it may seem counterintuitive it is not.

The reason it is not counterintuitive is that DWV piping does not have the same higher temperature rating as water distribution pipe has. DWV piping is typically handling water which is either cold, hot mixed with cold, or at most 'hot' within the limitations of 'hot' water temperature, whereas the T&P relief valve is designed and intended to not discharge water unless it is 210 degrees *at pressure*, which means that *at atmosphere* the 210 degree water is almost instantaneously steam. DWV piping is not intended to have water that hot in it. Water distribution piping can handle that temperature for various time periods depending on the material, copper and galvanized can handle it a lot longer than CPVC or PEX can - but - when the T&P relief valve releases cold water is drawn into the water heater, cooling the water, which in turn cools the water being discharged out the T&P relief valve.

My question is, where does this effluent go? I mean, how do you discharge 'distribution'?

Not understanding your question.

So, I have another question: Can you use a material approved in table P2905.5 for a certain distance then switch to another material or does it have to remain this pipe until the point of discharge into the DWV or ground---no, wait a minute, you cannot discharge into the DWV or ground because they are not on the approved list.

All I can try to explain is that even the drain pan the water heater is setting in is required to have a drain line, and that drain line is required to be a material listed in the table for water distribution piping, and that drain line is all the way to its termination.

Now, if you were to discharge the T&P relief valve to a concrete floor, and the water were to drain across the floor to a floor drain, the water would cool to some extent (no, there is no minimum separation for this cooling effect to take place) and thus be safe for the DWV piping connected to the floor drain.

The code does not, cannot, take all potential possibilities into consideration. If the code attempted to try to do that, one would need an 18 wheeler tractor trailer with a 50 foot long trailer just to haul the code around in ... and it would *still* not be able to address *all* potential possibilities.

Thus we get back to the code is "minimum", but not even 'good' (see other discussion for that :) ).

Jerry Peck

11-27-2010, 07:52 PM

Jerry
Pipe is measured from the interior.

I am aware of that.

3/4 copper pipe is going to be 3/4 interior or 0.75. Copper tubing is measured by the exterior. The interior of the 3/4 copper tubing is going to be about 1/2 inch and is not allowed to be used for the for the drain pipe.

3/4 nominal size pipe IS allowed, regardless of exactly how large it is.

This has been discussed many times, I suspect you must have missed it. The intent is to make sure that the nominal size pipe is not reduced, not that the actual size is not reduced.

If not, only iron pipe would be allowed for the discharge line as the T&P relief valve discharges are iron pipe sizes and only iron pipe (i.e., galvanized pipe and the like) is in iron pipe sizes.

Also, actually iron pipe sizes are not internal diameter sizes. They are approximate internal diameter sizes, 1/2" is *larger than* 0.50"; 3/4" is *larger than* 0.75"; etc.

That said, 3/4" copper is a suitable size for the discharge pipe of a 3/4" T&P relief valve, even though it is *smaller* than the 3/4" I.P. (iron pipe) size and thread on the valve. That is because 'nominal' pipe size is used, not actual pipe size.

Widdershins Saunders

11-28-2010, 10:31 AM

I thought we did too, Widdershins.

I've added underlining and bold, and made the text ALL CAPS to highlight the important part:

Now, and explained BEFORE when I thought we CLEARED THIS UP BEFORE (as you stated), the only way to discharge "or to the outdoors" AND to meet "through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater" would be for the water heater to be LOCATED "outdoors", and, of course, the water heater would need to be listed and labeled for installation "outdoors". There are some special water heaters which are listed and labeled for installation "outdoors", but the water heaters under discussion are not those types and ARE NOT installed "outdoors".

Thus, the "or to the outdoors" option IS NOT AVAILABLE to 99.999999% of the water heater installations.

Now, though, THE WASTE RECEPTOR'S DRAIN LINE which the T&P discharge pipe drains to may, indeed, discharge to "the outdoors". But that is not the discharge line being discussed, that is a different discharge line.

Jerry, Chapter 5 Section 504.6 gives you a number of options -- And piping to the outdoors is one of those options.

Jerry, I have spent most of my summers since Hurricane Katrina plumbing in the Gulf States (Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida and Alabama although not in Texas) for Habitat for Humanity and a number of Catholic charities -- And I assure you most of the slab on grade homes we've rebuilt in Florida have the T&P's piped to the outdoors and were signed off without any issues from local inspectors.

I'm sure you must still have some contacts from your days as a Plumbing Inspector -- Give 'em a call Monday between 8:00 and 8:45 and put the question to them yourself.

Jerry Peck

11-28-2010, 05:00 PM

Jerry, Chapter 5 Section 504.6 gives you a number of options -- And piping to the outdoors is one of those options.

Widdershins,

That section gives you a number of "options" as you said, BUT ... it also gives you a number of REQUIREMENTS ... and the REQUIREMENTS must be met while selecting the "options" you choose.

The "requirements" are cast in stone and must be met, the "options" are only optional if they work with the "requirements".

Jerry, I have spent most of my summers since Hurricane Katrina plumbing in the Gulf States (Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida and Alabama although not in Texas) for Habitat for Humanity and a number of Catholic charities -- And I assure you most of the slab on grade homes we've rebuilt in Florida have the T&P's piped to the outdoors and were signed off without any issues from local inspectors.

Yep, as I said, that USED TO BE the acceptable method, and that it is NO LONGER acceptable, that the T&P is REQUIRED to discharge in the same space as the water heater is located in.

When rebuilding is done, short of total gutting and rebuilding, many methods of construction *which were allowed by are not longer allowed* are allowed to remain.

If the house is a total gut and rebuild - then the AHJ *should* (is required to be code, which does not mean they will do it) make the new installation meet the new code.

Widdershins Saunders

11-28-2010, 10:12 PM

Widdershins,

That section gives you a number of "options" as you said, BUT ... it also gives you a number of REQUIREMENTS ... and the REQUIREMENTS must be met while selecting the "options" you choose.

The "requirements" are cast in stone and must be met, the "options" are only optional if they work with the "requirements".

Yep, as I said, that USED TO BE the acceptable method, and that it is NO LONGER acceptable, that the T&P is REQUIRED to discharge in the same space as the water heater is located in.

When rebuilding is done, short of total gutting and rebuilding, many methods of construction *which were allowed by are not longer allowed* are allowed to remain.

If the house is a total gut and rebuild - then the AHJ *should* (is required to be code, which does not mean they will do it) make the new installation meet the new code.

Just out of curiosity, Jerry, do you even know what an air gap as it pertains to this particular section of the code is?

Do us both a favor, Jerry, call your local Planning & Building Department Monday morning between 8:00 and 8:45 before they go out into the field or between 3:00 and 4:00 in the afternoon and clear this up for yourself.

Drop me a private message if you need the phone number -- I still have it saved in my phone from the last time we had this discussion.

Jerry Peck

11-29-2010, 05:40 PM

Just out of curiosity, Jerry, do you even know what an air gap as it pertains to this particular section of the code is?

Yes I do know.

Sounds like you do not know, and that you also do not know what you are talking about in this matter.

Do us both a favor, Jerry, ...

Do us all a favor Widdershins and learn what it is that we are talking about, and how to read the code, even when it uses simply words in lists instead of in more complex paragraphs. :rolleyes:

Widdershins Saunders

11-29-2010, 07:25 PM

[quote=Jerry Peck;152209]Yes I do know.

I'm all but sure you don't, Jerry.

In fact, I sent this thread out to Plumbing Inspectors all across the country this morning -- Those who replied complained of neck pain from shaking their heads so much at your ignorance.

No lie, you really are kind of clueless, Jerry.

Y'know, you wouldn't be in this pickle if you'd simply taken the 'out' I offered you in my last post.

BTW, the offer still stands -- Send me a private message and I'll send you contact information, basically a direct line to your local inspectors (Ormand Beach, FL), in exchange for you taking just a few minutes to educate yourself.

And trust me, in the spirit of fairness, I have deliberately left your local Inspectors out of the loop -- They have no idea just how much of a fool you're making of yourself.

Also, FYI, line 2 of chapter 5, section 504.6 of the Florida Plumbing code is a continuation of line 1.

Here's the gist, Jerry; Lines 1 and 2 require that if the T&P is to be discharged into the sanitary sewer, then the T&P must be discharged into a trapped indirect drain, within the same room, and with no less than a 1" air break/air gap.

And here's why, Jerry -- Protection against cross connection is a given, hence the air gap requirement -- The reasoning behind the same room requirement is that 'Joe Homeowner', with a modicum of good sense, will put 2 and 2 together and make the connection that the water spurting sporadically into his hub drain is coming from his H/W tank.

It's really that simple, Jerry.

Why you would choose to complicate it beyond that is an absolute mystery to both myself and any of a number of other Inspectors on my e-mail distribution list.

Jerry Peck

11-29-2010, 08:02 PM

It's really that simple, Jerry.

Widdernshins,

Yes, it really is THIS simple - from the 2006 IRC:
- P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
(Jerry's note: As the above states, the following are the REQUIREMENTS for the discharge pipe - I am listing the REQUIREMENTS first, then the OPTIONS second.)
- - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.

- - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
- - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.
- - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
- - 5. Discharge to (Jerry's note: This first part gives OPTIONS, see below where OPTIONS are). Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
- - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
- - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
- - 8. Not be trapped.
- - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
- - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
- - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
- - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
- - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

Now for the OPTIONS:

- - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

Note that 2. comes before 5., and that 2. is a REQUIREMENT while 5. lists OPTIONS.
- - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
- - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

Thus, yes, one MAY discharge the T&P relief valve drain piping to the outdoors ... *IF* the water heater is located outdoors ... *OTHERWISE* the T&P relief valve drain piping is REQUIRED to discharge *through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater*.

Not sure what your problem in reading that is, nor what problem whoever else you have reading has, but the above is VERY CLEARLY laid out with REQUIREMENTS.

Have your other people point out the items in the list where I am wrong. Go through the list REQUIRED item by REQUIRED item.

Widdershins Saunders

11-30-2010, 06:25 AM

Yes, it really is THIS simple - from the 2006 IRC:

Look, Jerry, I have repeatedly offered to put you in touch with the final arbiters in Plumbing code interpretation/compliance in your area. That you've failed to/refuse to do so says a great deal about you.

The offer still stands.

Ian Page

12-01-2010, 12:55 AM

Bruce Adams

12-01-2010, 05:53 AM

Sorry guys, I wish somehow I hadn't started this thread.

In any event, based on everything I have read, including P2803.6.1. 2006 IRC, it seems to me that a reasonable solution so as to be in (semi?) compliance is if the existing ABS (in the side wall) is lowered, perhaps changed over to PVC, re-routed behind the WH and an open drain installed, thereby providing an indirect waste receptor. The TPR would then drain directly into it, with limited bends, via an air gap. Does that sound reasonable? Of course the AHJ would have the final say. Thanks again for all your efforts.

ip
Ian
You can not go to PVC either It starts to melt at about 73 degrees. You have the right idea.though. If the water heater safety valve were to go off because of malfunction it would melt the PVC and you would have water everywhere. You might go with an indirect drain or go to the floor with an alarm.
Bruce

Jerry Peck

12-01-2010, 04:36 PM

Look, Jerry, I have repeatedly offered to put you in touch with the final arbiters in Plumbing code interpretation/compliance in your area. That you've failed to/refuse to do so says a great deal about you.

The offer still stands.

Widdernshins,

Have your other people point out the items in the list where I am wrong. Go through the list REQUIRED item by REQUIRED item.

That offer still stands too - let them tell US ALL which of the "requirements" are not really "requirements" - I am sure that we ALL would like to know.

So, have them come here and tell us which requirements are not requirements, and then have them be prepared to explain why they have that position.

That is really the only thing you need to do, because when you keep saying something which directly goes against the code it falls on flat on its face.

Mike Inspector

12-01-2010, 06:37 PM

Jerry,

My comments are in red

- - 5. Discharge to (Jerry's note: This first part gives OPTIONS, see below where OPTIONS are). Where in the IRC does this say the below are options?
Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
- - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
- - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
- - 8. Not be trapped.
- - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
- - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
- - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
- - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
- - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

Now for the OPTIONS:

- - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

Again how are getting that the below are options?

Note that 2. comes before 5., and that 2. is a REQUIREMENT while 5. lists OPTIONS.
- - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
- - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

Thus, yes, one MAY discharge the T&P relief valve drain piping to the outdoors ... *IF* the water heater is located outdoors ... Where did you pull that statement from? Please explain the IF statement as that makes no sense whatsoever, What you are claiming here is the "CODE" says you can only discharge the T&P line out doors if the water heater is out doors, that is ridiculous.

*OTHERWISE* the T&P relief valve drain piping is REQUIRED to discharge *through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater*.

So what you are claiming that if a water heater is indoors the ONLY way to discharge a T&P line is through an air gap located in the same room? What about a Watts 210 Valve???

I have seen hundreds if not thousands of indoor water heaters that have T&P discharge lines terminating to the exterior.

Jerry Peck

12-01-2010, 07:48 PM

Jerry,
My comments are in red
- - 5. Discharge to (Jerry's note: This first part gives OPTIONS, see below where OPTIONS are). Where in the IRC does this say the below are options?

Read 5. and then ask the question again ... if you need to.

Here, I'll post it for you and explain it to you: (my explanation is in bold red)
Now for the OPTIONS:

- - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

Those are THREE OPTIONS: 1) "to the floor"; 2) "to an indirect waste receptor"; 3) "or to the outdoors".

That subsection then goes on to RESTRICT discharging to the outdoor in areas subject to freezing by stating "shall be first piped to an indirect waster receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area".

*OTHERWISE* the T&P relief valve drain piping is REQUIRED to discharge *through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater*.

So what you are claiming that if a water heater is indoors the ONLY way to discharge a T&P line is through an air gap located in the same room?

Yeppers. That be true.

What about a Watts 210 Valve???

Ummmm ... Mike ... think about what you just said ... then get back to me. :rolleyes:

I have seen hundreds if not thousands of indoor water heaters that have T&P discharge lines terminating to the exterior.

Yeppers, just like the rest of us have.

Did you not read my earlier post?

[quote=Jerry Peck]The codes *USED TO* require the drain line to discharge to the outdoors or to an indirect waste receptor (such as a floor drain), however, the codes now require the discharge to be *in the same room or space* as the water heater is located in, and, the discharge is allowed to be onto the floor (but is still not allowed to discharge such that it could cause personal injury - "Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.").[/qutoe]

Mike, what part of "The codes *USED TO* require the drain line to discharge to the outdoors ... " do you not get?

However, the current codes require many things first, one of which is: "P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater."

Ready on the Watts 210 valve yet? ;)

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-01-2010, 10:07 PM

the tpr discharge terminates at the air gap. The rest is drainage for the indirect waste receptor. Apples and oranges.

Ian Page

12-01-2010, 11:52 PM

Jerry
I don't see how the TPR draining to the floor indoors (required) is not likely to cause either injury or damage, with or without an air gap. The valve is a pressure relief valve and thereby under pressure (with hot - perhaps scalding) water if activated. Seems to me that code requirements preclude themselves, in part anyway. Kinda like a double negative. I'm sure that wasn't the intent of the drafters.

ip

Widdershins Saunders

12-02-2010, 05:17 PM

That offer still stands too - let them tell US ALL which of the "requirements" are not really "requirements" - I am sure that we ALL would like to know.

Nobody said anything about any part of subsection 605.4 not being required, Jerry, not myself or anybody else.

So, have them come here and tell us which requirements are not requirements, and then have them be prepared to explain why they have that position.

Jerry, if you aren't willing to accept the detailed explanation of a Licensed Master Plumber and you aren't willing to make a local call to your own local Plumbing Inspectors, then there is no point whatsoever in bringing in more people.

Two people thinking you're a Jackass is two people too many as it is -- Beckoning more is a disruption I'm not willing to put this Board through.

However, that should not discourage you from seeking information outside of this forum -- Something I have repeatedly offered to assist you with, BTW.

That is really the only thing you need to do, because when you keep saying something which directly goes against the code it falls on flat on its face.

No, Jerry -- The quickest end to this little drama is to call the folks charged with enforcing the code and pick their brains yourself.

As I've said numerous times already -- Send me a private message and I'll pass on contact information for your local Plumbing Inspectors.

Jerry Peck

12-02-2010, 07:35 PM

Jerry
I don't see how the TPR draining to the floor indoors (required) is not likely to cause either injury or damage, with or without an air gap.

Ian,

Precisely one of my pet peeves of things where I think the code is wrong in what it requires or allows.

The codes used to say that it could not discharge so as to be a nuisance, but that is exactly what they want - they WANT that running water to be NOTICED, and making it a nuisance does exactly that.

The Chief Plumbing Officials I talked to about it said: "If it was up to us, the water heater would be smack in the center of the living room or dining room and the T&P discharge would discharge right there so no one could miss it." A bit over the top in my opinion, but that was what they want so that the occupants will not miss the T&P discharging water.

Stuart Brooks

12-02-2010, 09:29 PM

Go Jerry! I don't have any problem interpreting the issues as you have done.

1) I have little faith in code inspectors to interpret anything correctly. There is too much individual "interpreting" allowed. No checks to counter bribery and "good ole boy" inspections.
2) Master Plumber: Is this the guy who skipped every academic class (science, chemistry, physics) he could to take shop classes. Learned his trade by following directions from and observing how somebody else who learned the same way whether it was right or wrong but "it's the way it's been done for umpteen years."

Sorry - I have developed a really poor attitude about contractors, tradespeople, and code inspectors. For every 1 that is good at and cares about their work, there's 100 that aren't worth the paper their license or certification is printed on. (My opinion, not a scientific study or valid statistical sampling)

Ian Page

12-03-2010, 12:56 AM

Interestingly, I contacted the HOA for this particular housing unit today (about 250 duplexes altogether) and according to their records this WH was installed by a 'reputable' local plumbing company. They also installed several more in much the same manner throughout the complex at the same time. Needless to say I crossed them off my referral list.

I've come to the conclusion that a Watts 210 is really the best and least disruptive answer, with a TPR valve installed elswhere in the system.

ip

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-03-2010, 09:13 AM

Well two sections of the California Plumbing Code have already been quoted and apparently not read.

The discharge may not be PEX in any form for the first 18".The drainage for the discharge may not be PVC, it MAY be CPVC, however for a threaded transition between copper and CPVC that portion would HAVE to be sc. 80 and maintain an unrestricted 3/4" I/S.

See previously quoted sections of CPC in two of my earlier posts above. The materials which are allowed are listed but one must read both sections. The application of those sections is dependant on other areas of the CPC and other portions of the California Codes as well.

The earthquake requirements for California are not made correctly, this includes flexible connections between the storage type water heating device and the hard piping.

Questionable makeup/combustion air since opening in the door at the top has been boarded up, and the top of the w/h jacket sits higher than the opening to the compartment, closet, or room.

The suspected or apparent exterior air inlet (pictured from outside) supplying the floor area of appears to have been restricted.

Last time I checked California still utilized plumbing codes based upon the UPC and had not adopted the plumbing chapters of the IRC, mechanical also IIRC Uniform Codes not I-Codes I believe for at least until next year.

Local units of government can further restrict but not lessen restrictions of the state-wide code adoptions.

TPR Valve discharge size restrictions are based on the I/D, NOT the O/D or "trade size". See ASSE/ASTM standards, instructions referenced on the mfg'r of TPRV, and mfg WH instructions.

I really don't understand why two Floridians are debating 2006 IRC relative to a CALIFORNIA HI inspecting a CALIFORNIA installed fuel-fired storage type water heater, neither of which seem to be familiar with the UPC or UMC??? The Uniform Plumbing Code (even as ammended by CA) is MORE RESTRICTIVE than the I-Codes, this a "higher" standard.

High sediment water supply easily scales TPRVs. Dribbling, unclosed, and not under sufficient pressure with cross connection/cross-contamination to potable water supply is a Health Hazard.

Vacuum break needed with outlets lower than WH (older hose bib for example) for those times pressure is not maintained in the water supply (blackouts even suspend the pumping stations for water supply), etc.

Mike Inspector

12-03-2010, 01:28 PM

I inspected a WH yesterday with at least 5, 45 ells and one 22 in 3/4 copper, literally wrapping around the WH before disappearing into an ABS vent appearing out of the closet wall (on the opposite side of the valve) which may be an approved discharge point in 1978. The WH was a newer install located in a laundry in the center of the building. I reported it as having too many restrictions (all the bends) but could see no real alternative, short of cutting through a slab to run straighter pipe outside - not a cost effective solution. A Watts 210 could be installed but that doesn't resolve the restrictive piping issue Anyone else have any ideas/opinion?. Many thanks...

ip

Ian,

San Diego County allows T&P discharge lines to terminate into ABS drains as long as there is an air gap. Condos in San Diego County do it all the time, especially in the laundry room they terminate into the washer drain. Manufactures recommend no more than 4 90 degree elbow2 with a discharge line less than 30 feet in length.

paul hardy

12-03-2010, 02:10 PM

That is because the indirect waste receptor is part of the drainage system and can be of any material allowed for sanitary drainage like H G said the t&p line stops at the waste receptor with a air gap.

Mike Inspector

12-03-2010, 02:20 PM

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 06:03 PM

I really don't understand why two Floridians are debating 2006 IRC relative to a CALIFORNIA HI inspecting a CALIFORNIA installed fuel-fired storage type water heater, neither of which seem to be familiar with the UPC or UMC??? The Uniform Plumbing Code (even as ammended by CA) is MORE RESTRICTIVE than the I-Codes, this a "higher" standard.

I'm from Washington State actually, Mr. Watson -- My Florida connection is through my work with Habitat for Humanity and a number of Catholic charities in the Gulf States.

I also have a number of connections with Florida's Coastal Plumbing Inspectors through my membership in IAPMO, the UPC Code Development Committee, ANSI, ICC and the ICC Code Development Committee.

As for the UPC being more restrictive than the IRC, which is essentially a dumbed down version of the IPC, you are correct.

The irony here, is that the 2007 amended release of the 2003 IPC was deliberately dumbed down to ensure that enough prospective apprentices passed the exam to fulfill the regions requirements.

Yes, that's just how desperate the situation was -- We were in a housing boom, afterall.

The IPC is a joke, always has been -- OTOH, it *IS* the dominant code.

Chad Fabry

12-03-2010, 06:42 PM

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 07:00 PM

Go Jerry! I don't have any problem interpreting the issues as you have done.

Your inability to comprehend the most basic nuances of the English language has been duly noted.

1) I have little faith in code inspectors to interpret anything correctly. There is too much individual "interpreting" allowed. No checks to counter bribery and "good ole boy" inspections.

And yet most of the Code Inspectors plying their trade have had to sit for exams that make the exams you had to take to receive your Inspection Credentials seem like a week in the Caribbean.

Seriously -- Inspectors are indemnified. Bribery is like pissing in the wind.

These guys and gals are fully protected by both Law and Charter -- You can offer them money if you like, but it isn't going to effect how they rule.

I think you're confusing Municipal Inspectors with privately funded Inspectors. During the housing boom, a number of municipalities allowed privately funded Inspectors to sign off on jobs -- A huge mistake, BTW, one this country will be paying for for the next 40 years.

2) Master Plumber: Is this the guy who skipped every academic class (science, chemistry, physics) he could to take shop classes. Learned his trade by following directions from and observing how somebody else who learned the same way whether it was right or wrong but "it's the way it's been done for umpteen years."

That's funny. Holding degrees in Behavioral Sciences, Chemistry and Clinical Psychology from the University of Washington, I imagine I'm far better 'edjumacated' than you and most of your peers.

No big deal, actually -- Although it should be noted that these degrees were made possible on the pay of a Plumbers Apprentice in the mid 80's -- No student loans to repay, If you catch my meaning.

Sorry - I have developed a really poor attitude about contractors, tradespeople, and code inspectors.

Y'know, the irony here is that you have your nose stuffed so far up Jerry's arse you can't smell the sawdust and the wood chips.

Clue time, Stuart -- Jerry is a retired General Contractor.

For every 1 that is good at and cares about their work, there's 100 that aren't worth the paper their license or certification is printed on. (My opinion, not a scientific study or valid statistical sampling)

Well, I really appreciate you qualifying your bigotry, Stuart.

Y'know, I interface with a Home Inspector at least once a month, more before the housing bubble burst -- And I can say without any hesitation that a good 95% of them are good people just trying to make an honest living.

The majority recognize that their limited experience is derived almost exclusively from classrooms and labs and that there is no substitute for practical knowledge.

Who knows, maybe they're shining me on, but most seem to appreciate the visceral experiences of Tradespeople.

You're a 5 percenter, Stuart, as is Jerry -- No big deal, actually.

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 07:06 PM

Watson and Saunders; two folks (maybe one) arguing code whilst comfortably concealed behind a curtain of comfortable anonymity.

What an unusual state of affairs. Oddly, I'm not moved to confirm the statements of either.

My name is Steven Saunders, Chad -- Google away and drop me a line sometime.

I am in the 'BOOK', afterall.

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 07:15 PM

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 07:17 PM

One does not install a TPR valve with a Watts 210 valve only a pressure relief valve gets installed with a Watts 210.

These folks don't get it, Mike -- And they never will.

Bruce Adams

12-03-2010, 07:17 PM

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 07:41 PM

Ian,

San Diego County allows T&P discharge lines to terminate into ABS drains as long as there is an air gap. Condos in San Diego County do it all the time, especially in the laundry room they terminate into the washer drain. Manufactures recommend no more than 4 90 degree elbow2 with a discharge line less than 30 feet in length.

Here's the rub, Mike -- Neither Jerry or Ian understands that the airgap requirement presupposes that an indirect drain has been provided (they don't understand what an airgap is).

All of the dominant Plumbing codes throughout the US (UPC, IPC and SPC) include provisions for the introduction of T&P discharge into the Sanitary Sewer -- Yet not one of the three dominant codes specifically requires that an indirect drain be provided -- Hence the options of plumbing the discharge to the outdoors or to the floor of the H/W tanks location.

Let me reiterate -- Not one of the three dominant Plumbing codes in force in the US can or does specifically require you to to provide an indirect drain for the purpose of capturing the discharge from a T&P relief valve.

It's really that simple.

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 07:56 PM

This one needs to end. To much name calling that is doing no one any good. The code inspector and the home inspector have two different different job and they both have there place. And there are good and bad in both. We do not need to be calling each other names. Ian got the information he needed.
Bruce

I agree, to a point.

You have a regular contributor to this forum who bills himself as the 'Code Man'.

If he's wrong about this, and he is, then what else has he been wrong about?

And for the sake of clarity -- I was invited to this forum.

It seems some are weary of hearing the same nonsense repeated ad infinitum.

Chad Fabry

12-03-2010, 09:34 PM

My name is Steven Saunders, Chad -- Google away and drop me a line sometime.

I am in the 'BOOK', afterall.

Steven, forgive me, but there are so many folks calling themselves "Steven Saunders", please forward me your contact info.

I digress... is "afterall" really a word or are you screwing with me?

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 09:46 PM

Steven, forgive me, but there are so many folks calling themselves "Steven Saunders", please forward me your contact info.

Drop me a private message and I'll forward you my contact information -- Please be considerate of the time zone differences and my work schedule.

I digress... is "afterall" really a word or are you screwing with me?

I dropped a keystroke.

Please forgive me (I'm screwing with you now, BTW).

Jerry Peck

12-03-2010, 10:02 PM

Clue time, Stuart -- Jerry is a retired General Contractor.

Seems that Widdershins is the clueless one.

Yes, I am a retired General Contractor - AND I am a retired Home Inspector - AND I am an ACTIVE code inspector for Building, Mechanical, Electrical, ... and, yeah, and Plumbing too ... both commercial and residential. Oh, and Coastal Construction, and 1&2 Family Dwellings, and ...

Oh, I am also an ACTIVE Building Plans Examiner, and ...

Oh, and I am also an ACTIVE construction consultant who may one day be called to save Widdershins butt ... nail him. :D

Widdershins Saunders

12-03-2010, 11:11 PM

Seems that Widdershins is the clueless one.

Yes, I am a retired General Contractor - AND I am a retired Home Inspector - AND I am an ACTIVE code inspector for Building, Mechanical, Electrical, ... and, yeah, and Plumbing too ... both commercial and residential. Oh, and Coastal Construction, and 1&2 Family Dwellings, and ...

Oh, I am also an ACTIVE Building Plans Examiner, and ...

Oh, and I am also an ACTIVE construction consultant who may one day be called to save Widdershins butt ... nail him. :D

That was fascinating, Jerry, but exactly what does it mean?

billy claggett

12-04-2010, 08:29 AM

I think i would of recomended a plumber install a drain pan and then that can be piped to the drain in the floor there by eliminating all the bends and still be safe

Jerry Peck

12-04-2010, 10:31 AM

That was fascinating, Jerry, but exactly what does it mean?

I can only presume that, by you asking that question, it means you either cannot read or do not comprehend what you read ... which goes a long way toward explaining some of your other posts. :confused:

Ian Page

12-05-2010, 01:31 AM

Don't wanna play this game anymore...can I have my ball back, please.:(

ip

Rich Goeken

12-05-2010, 07:18 AM

That was fascinating, Jerry, but exactly what does it mean?

Widdershins,

OK. Games over. If you want to convey information---good. If you want to make snide remarks about people----bad. I'm tired of seeing a message from you with, perhaps, one fact---but including blindsiding someone at the same time.

Let's stop here and try to keep it on a professional level.

Thanks,

Rich

Garry Sorrells

12-05-2010, 07:44 AM

Don't wanna play this game anymore...can I have my ball back, please.:(

ip

Just reread the entire thread to-date. I have a question but will not ask since things have degenerated to ??????/

I will ask if all the balli hooing back and forth is specific to CA . CA being unique to the universe and CA being the original question point.

Please correct me if I am wrong. All Building Code is dependent on what a state or locality chooses to use as the basis for their codes. Then that locality chooses to alter that Code for their own needs. Thus a county can alter their Code requirements however they want. Furthermore each Permit Inspector can intemperate and/or exempt an installation as a permitted variance to the Code by their own discretion.

I start with my local county code. What any world, international or national code is secondary. CA , WA, FL, LA are all different. Are you all arguing over the same locally specific code requirements?

Ian,
I think that you have lost your ball for good. Like Health Care bill it does not matter what you want they will do what they think is best for you.

Jerry Peck

12-05-2010, 08:35 AM

Don't wanna play this game anymore...can I have my ball back, please.:(

Ian,
I think that you have lost your ball for good.

I've passed the ball back to Ian, hopefully he does not through that same ball back out into play again. :)

Sometimes questions get answered, then someone disputes the answers, which leaves only a couple of options: a) let the misinformation stand; b) refute the misinformation and repeat the correct information.

Ian,

See you at the next game. ;)

Tim Spargo

12-05-2010, 05:05 PM

Don't wanna play this game anymore...can I have my ball back, please.:(

ip

Hi IAN...

Get a copy of the California Plumbing Code.. The CPC. For fast reference of everyday stuff, get the

* Code Check for California Edition *

I say this as you've been looking up IRC stuff and a bit of this and that for advice. We're in CA buddy. Your first comments were close with the mention of the 210 valve AND a pressure relief valve on the outside of the house.

Our building code very simply says to "terminate outside within 6-24 inches from the ground OR OTHER APPROVED LOCATION *

This is section 608.5 of the CPC

I would suggest living in Oceanside a quick call to your building dept is warranted to determine the use of:

210 valves
AND
TPR discharge end points - accepted locations.

Good Luck!

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-05-2010, 10:14 PM

Oh no, that might get him busted, performing critical plumbing not just REPAIRS as a handyman without a plumbing license on a residence he just inspected, doesn't own or occupy, and isn't exempt from requiring a license, upon work that was likely unpermitted, uninspected, earlier, on the sly!

That section of the CPC was cited and quoted much earlier in the thread - but explicit how-to step by step "how to" instructions were not immediately forthcoming to Mr. Handyman - but instead the means were fully provided to an end (how to terminate the discharge) it just required an understanding and careful reading of a series of posts; hence the venomous reply early on!

Remember, one of his first few posts here (from this topic discussion: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/general-chit-chat-home-inspectors-commercial-inspectors/20990-we-more-conflicted-than-other-guys.html
IMO - and yes, we are all allowed to have one (or more) without being flamed...the 'Code of Ethics' is way to broad .

I know that may be in conflict with most but...I am a Handyman AND perform Inspections. I am extremely ethical and fair with all my clients and customers.

That's probably why I get calls to repair some of the issues I have I identified during the Inspection. I don't offer a bid at the time of the inspection. I don't find things wrong, just so I can fix them later. I report what I find and leave it up to the client. If they want to use my findings as a bargaining chip or have them repaired before or after the sale, it's their choice. In fact I encourage them to get bids from any and all other sources. If they want to call me, perhaps a month or two later - after the inspection (and the sale) to change out a perfectly good toilet or install new faucets - I see absolutely nothing wrong with providing that service nor am I conflicted in any way. I'm sure there are those that do, but I simply can not follow their reasoning...the old saw..."conflict of interest" just doesn't cut it for me.

I have built numerous relationships with customers, with the handyman side of the business, which have lead to dozens of inspections and vice versa.

I know my limitations and fully abide my my State's Contracting and Licensing regulations.

If you have your own personal standard and live by that, that's your perogative. It doesn't mean that someone who has a different standard is less or more ethical. I am not convinced that you are a better or more ethical person than I or perform a more thorough inspection, simply because you support a wordy, incongruous statement. It really is about honesty, trust and integrity, a 'Code' I'm a dues paying member of and fully subscribe to.

There are simply too many variables and 'what ifs?' with 'ethics' to be functional.

Furthermore, where is the conflict of interest in attending to items that were not part of the inspection in the first place?

Recently a client for whom I had done the inspection for called me to construct and install a gate - at the inspected house - which was not even in existence at the time of the inspection. And that makes me 'conflicted' how?

I also have several clients, from inspections, who have called on me months after the sale to paint and hang wall-paper (a profession not readily found in which I have decades of experience) - areas not specifically subject of any home inspection.

I chose to perform that service, if you don't that's your choice and maybe your State's mandate. I personally like to make repairs etc. and consider it a very rewarding service for those that don't or can't.

Perhaps any HI 'Code of Ethics' might be more workable if it referred specifically to items which were found "...in need of repair" during the inspection rather than the blanket statement of not performing work period.

I happened to have taught several 'Ethics' classes in a previous career. One thing I am sure of...there is no right answer.

Okay...your turnHe also added this to the discussion as he continued:
Nowhere in my post did I claim to make repairs (following an inspection).

The B and P code specifically prohibits 'repairs' - only identifying them as a bad business practice.

The examples I gave (and was very careful to chose my words wisely) included installations or improvements. Installing a previously non-existent gate and 'changing out a perfectly good toilet or faucet and hanging wall-paper or painting' are not repairs.

Repairs are usually what happens after something is broken and you fix the same thing to make it whole.

The aforementioned items are purely cosmetic in nature and are not precluded under the wording of the above regulation.

Hey, I didn't write the regulation, don't blame me.

Certainly they may fall under other aspects of the Licensing regulationsand Trades. I do not represent myself as a Contractor of any nature but as a Handyman.

I limit my work to under $500 per job, therefore no specific trades license is required, under current CA regulations.

BTW, I have a very good attorney.

I also believe that being a Handyman makes me a better Home Inspector (not better than anyone else - just better). I am able to impart my knowledge to the customer and at least know what I am talking about through practical experience.

No wonder he's been so nasty and now wants his ball back!!!

The vast majority of HIs regulated or not, are bound by a Code of Ethics. "Ian Page" has declared himself to not be one who is so inclined; and thinks he is not prohibited from making repairs, designing and performing corrections, etc. to properties he has inspected. His definition of "repair" is convenient for his argument, but not in keeping with the law, IMO, and I think some of what has been displayed on the instant topic string demonstrates that he doesn't always know what he is talking about.

Tim Spargo

12-05-2010, 11:12 PM

You are Correct Mr Watson... I didn't see that section of the post...playing on both sides of the proverbial fence isn't a good place!!

IAN... listen :D
As well as the CPC in CA.. If you offering repair services, you are very likely *subject to* Business and Profession Code 7197a.1 - as *repairs* are specified as prohibited. This is fairly well known by experienced Brokers as well... it will come to bite ya or leave you in a position of... how shall I say "manipulation" :confused:

Other types of construction (obvious items outside the general SOP or Inspection Report) *may* be permitted... but what is mentioned is clearly within the SOP and sounds like it was reported. In my opinion, you would be better served by those who know you for your inspection services to know little or none at all of your "handyman services". I feel this discredits you Ian. It's just my opinion, but hey... I've survived in the inspection business for 13 years. It's tough "out there".. it's friendly in here!

I recommend becoming more familiar with guidelines in our friendly "Land of Fruit and Nuts", or you may find your self admonished by someone else other than posters here. Maybe a local inspector meeting? Just a thought!

We all makes mistakes.. learn from it and move on and forward!

That's the point of coming here and *learning*.. don't take offense, just take the benefit!

Good Luck!!!

Widdershins Saunders

12-07-2010, 06:16 PM

I can only presume that, by you asking that question, it means you either cannot read or do not comprehend what you read ... which goes a long way toward explaining some of your other posts. :confused:

No, I understood what you said -- The confusion lies in just how proud you are to have been called out, Jerry.

Still waiting for you to suck it up and defer to the actual experts, BTW.

Widdershins Saunders

12-07-2010, 06:37 PM

Widdershins,

OK. Games over. If you want to convey information---good. If you want to make snide remarks about people----bad. I'm tired of seeing a message from you with, perhaps, one fact---but including blindsiding someone at the same time.

Let's stop here and try to keep it on a professional level.

Thanks,

Rich

If you follow the thread, Rich, you'll note that I have never once escalated beyond the escalation of the previous post.

Here's the deal, Rich -- My "one fact" should be obvious to everyone -- Including Jerry.

What I find most troubling is that not one of the participants in this thread seems even remotely interested in arriving at the truth.

Did you ask for the contact information to ascertain the truth?

Did Ian, Stuart or Mr. Watson?

No -- Not one of you did.

I'm right -- I would have dropped this 8 or 9 posts ago if I didn't think I was.

Here's the deal -- I contacted the AHJ in Jerry's neck of the woods 5 or 6 weeks ago and spoke with the Lead Inspector -- I cannot and will not quote him verbatim -- But the general consensus was and is, is that Jerry is full of Shite.

Yeah -- They, meaning the final arbiters, don't have a very high opinion of Jerry down there.

Widdershins Saunders

12-07-2010, 06:59 PM

Furthermore each Permit Inspector can intemperate and/or exempt an installation as a permitted variance to the Code by their own discretion.

They can until they happen upon a bulldog like me.

When a code is adopted, it is codified as law -- Granted, regional amendments are also codified as law.

OTOH, every once in awhile a trades person encounters a person like Jerry who thinks they can twist the adopted code to meet their own narrow interpretation.

I've never put up with it in the past, and I'll be damned if I'll put up with it this close to retirement. If this were a real time issue involving me, Jerry and the outcome of a sign off, I'd immediately go over his head -- And if that didn't result in a sign off -- I'd go to the body who approved the code and plead my case. I've done it before and I'll do it again -- Thus far my success rate is 100%, BTW.

Bottom line -- There is a built in appeals process in every municipality, city, county and jurisdiction in the lower 48 that allows for the overruling of capricious decisions made by code inspectors -- I know this because I've done it time and time again over the past 30 years.

Jerry Peck

12-07-2010, 07:29 PM

They can until they happen upon a bulldog like me.

I've found that bulldogs spend more time licking themselves after marking their territory than they do anything else.

Other than that, they are pretty useless.

OTOH, every once in awhile a trades person encounters a person like Jerry who thinks they can twist the adopted code to meet their own narrow interpretation.

I've never put up with it in the past, and I'll be damned if I'll put up with it this close to retirement. If this were a real time issue involving me, Jerry and the outcome of a sign off, I'd immediately go over his head -- And if that didn't result in a sign off -- I'd go to the body who approved the code and plead my case. I've done it before and I'll do it again -- Thus far my success rate is 100%, BTW.

Probably because you act you are a bull in a china shop and you think you can run over others by using "attitude".

Fortunately, here, you will run into people who actually use their brains and think more than they try to bully their way through things, and when that happens ... the bull is distracted by the red cape, which is when the bull gets speared ... then we get together for a bar-b-que ... and we do not have to go far for the steak to through on the barbie either, its just been freshly speared. :D

Not unlike that other post in another thread where I asked about what it meant when John shot the bull with Jerry ... :cool:

... and someone responded that we were having bar-b-que!

Widdershins, you really do need to come to grips with what little you can do and that being a bully does not always get your way. :rolleyes:

Ian Page

12-08-2010, 01:09 AM

So now Watson - I refuse to grace you with a title - you have succeeded in pissing me off. I extend my congratulations because that doesn't happen very often. You have made assumptions about my motive(s) for my original post, debunking my character and integrity, based on previous posts in other threads. I had given you the benefit of the doubt with your knowledge of technical issues on a variety of other matters but I see communication, understanding, comprehension and the ability to share one's knowledge without offending are not your strong points.

Suffice to say, I am a Handyman and proud to provide that service. I also completed the inspection on the duplex from which this post originated. The WH and TPR were as photographed and I sought opinions from this board as to how the issue could be remediated FOR MY OWN PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AND GRATIFICATION - though I may share that knowledge with the client if called upon (I wasn't). Furthermore any information I do glean will be of future use. I appreciate all contributors - as you can see information varies around the country, and good people disagree.

It was not my intention to post further until I had received a response from the AHJ - as yet none despite two left messages. The thread, despite still receiving useful information, had degenerated and it was time to go. I had started it and thought appropriate to end it.

I was not asked, nor did I ever offer to provide any plumbing service, nor any other work of any nature, at this inspection - not that it is any business of yours. I am not answerable to you, which is reciprocated, but your latest post, making disparaging remarks has roused my ire. You think you know me. You think you know the Inspection business but based on your postings - I beg to differ. If you approach clients in the same manner as you post, no wonder you travel from State to State. It's hard to catch up with a moving target. Please do not make assumptions about me, respond to any future posts of mine or add un-asked for information or un-called for comments. They will not be appreciated or read.

However, if you are ever in my area and need an honest, reliable, trustworthy handyman, please don't hesitate to send me an email. I am, however, pretty booked up until well into the New Year. Thank you.

Ian Page

12-08-2010, 01:56 AM

Garry Sorrells

12-08-2010, 07:43 AM

Tim
Please read my quotes by Watson carefully and comprehend. I do not/have not performed repairs on homes I have Inspected. I do offer my experience to inspection clients as to what it may take to fix or repair discovered issues. I see this as both reasonable and obligatory as they are typically looking for an 'Answer Man' and are paying for it. Who else are they likely to turn to within the short term window of negotiations?

On occasion and without remuneration I have also referred them to licensed and qualified trades persons who can provide any necessary repairs. I do provide a handyman service and have performed work at homes I have inspected. However, the work includes that which is outside aspects and issues typically identified, examined or otherwise evaluated during an inspection. I do get referrals from both aspects of the business which compliment each other. This, IMO, is NOT in conflinct with my States mandates or regulation (I am not affilliated with any group or organization and therefore not bound by them) AND if it's not (I have a good legal basis for determining so) then where is the argument? Other than perhaps it's not something you, or other Inspectors, would chose not to do. Choice being the operative word. There is no ethical dilemma or dichotomy on my part.

As I previously posted, I did not begin this thread with any other motive or reason other than to become informed and solicit varying ideas to remedy a problem. For Watson to 'assume' and insinuate that my reasoning to be somewhat underhanded is completely eroneous and out of line. I truly appreciate the good intentions of your comments, knowledge sharing and valuable insight, however. I suppose we shall agree to disagree on some issues.

ip

Ian I am a little confused. A previous posting by you that HG Watson listed in line posting #69 had you quoted as stating :

" That's probably why I get calls to repair some of the issues I have I identified during the Inspection. I don't offer a bid at the time of the inspection. I don't find things wrong, just so I can fix them later. I report what I find and leave it up to the client. If they want to use my findings as a bargaining chip or have them repaired before or after the sale, it's their choice. In fact I encourage them to get bids from any and all other sources. If they want to call me, perhaps a month or two later - after the inspection (and the sale) to change out a perfectly good toilet or install new faucets - I see absolutely nothing wrong with providing that service nor am I conflicted in any way. I'm sure there are those that do, but I simply can not follow their reasoning...the old saw..."conflict of interest" just doesn't cut it for me. "

Which is it?
Either : " That's probably why I get calls to repair some of the issues I have I identified during the Inspection." ----- "If they want to call me, perhaps a month or two later - after the inspection (and the sale) to change out a perfectly good toilet or install new faucets"

Or: "..... I do not/have not performed repairs on homes I have Inspected. "

I admit I do not know CA licensing law as it pertains to Home Inspections, so clue me in. Is there no time specification as to when a Home Inspector can return to perform any type of work on the property that the Lic HI had inspected?

In Maryland it is one year from date of inspection. There is no fuzzy line between what was in the report and other types of work. Work is work and not permitted.
Also, does CA require you to be Licensed to preform Home Improvements (basically any type of work on the property) ?

Not jerking your chain, just wanting to broaden my understand of other states.

Garry Sorrells

12-08-2010, 07:50 AM

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-08-2010, 08:19 AM

Thinking of just starting different thread, but since you all are here.

Is if in conflict with code to use flexible 3/4" copper to go 190 degrees around WH. No elbows just a continuous curve?

I can see how code strives to reduce friction and increasing pressure by restricting the number of 90s or elbows. Thus the idea of a curved line application to going around WH.

Not permitted, yes in conflict.

See Sections referenced earlier above and referenced in the following thread relative to California: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/16228-tpr-valve-drain-pipe.html

Additionally, the length of copper corregated flexible connctions (inlet and outlet of water heating storage type vessle) are further limited as to length by the CPC.

Hard drawn copper tube. Pressure and temperature ratings. Corregated copper flexible connectors are pre-manufactured, approved/listed as an assembly, and cutting off the threaded connector on the terminal end is an adulteration of the product. These are also not designed to be connected end-to-end and doing so would be violative of the instructions.

See additional notations and discussion on the above (clickable link) thread, and you'll also find references in other threads on the subject.

We are talking about storage type water heaters which are of a reasonable size such as pictured, not insty-hot devices or thse with minimal gallon capacity, right?

Mike Inspector

12-08-2010, 10:02 PM

Tim
I do provide a handyman service and have performed work at homes I have inspected. ip

Ian,
You are in direct violation of California B&P Code 7197 by your own admission

7197. (a) It is an unfair business practice for a home inspector, a
company that employs the inspector, or a company that is controlled
by a company that also has a financial interest in a company
employing a home inspector, to do any of the following:
(1) To perform or offer to perform, for an additional fee, any
repairs to a structure on which the inspector, or the inspector's
company, has prepared a home inspection report in the past 12 months.
(2) Inspect for a fee any property in which the inspector, or the
inspector's company, has any financial interest or any interest in
the transfer of the property.
(3) To offer or deliver any compensation, inducement, or reward to
the owner of the inspected property, the broker, or agent, for the
referral of any business to the inspector or the inspection company.
(4) Accept an engagement to make an inspection or to prepare a
report in which the employment itself or the fee payable for the
inspection is contingent upon the conclusions in the report,
preestablished findings, or the close of escrow.
(5) A home protection company that is affiliated with or that
retains the home inspector does not violate this section if it
performs repairs pursuant to claims made under the home protection
contract.
(b) This section shall not affect the ability of a structural pest
control operator to perform repairs pursuant to Section 8505 as a
result of a structural pest control inspection.

However, the work includes that which is outside aspects and issues typically identified, examined or otherwise evaluated during an inspection.
ip

B&P code is plain and simple- (1) To perform or offer to perform, for an additional fee, any repairs to a structure on which the inspector, or the inspector's company, has prepared a home inspection report in the past 12 months.

NO EXCEPTIONS listed at all

Ian Page

12-09-2010, 02:44 AM

Mike

Thank you for posting the applicable CA law as it applies to Home Inspectors. However only item (a) 1, is applicable in the is case. As you can clearly see the operative words here are "...shall not perform or offer to perform any REPAIRS...". Please look up any definition of that word you care to. It does not, in any way, shape, or form include installing , placing any new item which was not in need of repair or issues improved solely for cosmetic purposes. Repair means to make broken or non-working things whole or if they can not be made whole then replaced with a working item (so as to make the item whole). If a perefectly working bathroom fixture is replaced for cosmetic purposes only, then no repair is effected. The fixture was not broken, was therefore in no need of repair or to be made whole from a broken or inoperative condition.

Neither would it include installing or improving any item, considered to be cosmetic in nature which is likely outside the scope of a standard Home Inspection. The 'gate' installation - referred to in a previous thread and resurected by Watson - is an example. The item was not in existence at the time of the inspection, consequently outside the scope. Neither was it a replacement of an existing gate in need of repair. That work, therefore does not fall under the purview or authority of BP 7197, which specifically refers to REPAIRS. It makes no mention of providing other work or installation(s). That's the language of the statute. It matters not how you wish to interpret it, the language and the legal definition of REPAIR is clear to me and without ambiguity. Now if the CA legislature had wanted to add the words 'or work', or 'provide additional services' etc. then we would not be having this discussion, but they have not.

Over time, the HI industry and most HI organizations have included the word 'work'. (Inspectors shall not etc...) in their SOP Code of Ethics, but that's not what CA law decrees. It's not semantics, I am not playing around with the word or its definition to make my case. I read BP 7197 the way it is written without adding my own words to it, I encourage you to do the same. If you find any other reference to HIs 'working' within any other CA Code, please share it with me, though any such research will be duplicative.

I do not solely rely on my own opinion - though I do have many years of legal procedure to rely on. I have learned to interpret codes and statutes as to how they read and not impose any inuendo or alternative meaning. I also have a very close connection with an ex-member of the State Legislature, previously working at the Better Business Bureau, who also confirms my position. I do not wish to rehash every aspect of my previous post(s) except to say my argument and position remain intact. I have performed WORK which did not include making REPAIRS, at homes I have inspected. I have never maintained to have made Repairs at these homes. If you care to, just read the words as written without applying your own concept of what they mean.

Gary - furthermore...

Currently there is no specific requirements, under CA law, for 'Handyman' licensing. The issue is how much work is performed, the nature of the work and contractual obligations. The general opinion from the Legislative body is no State license is required if the work performed, including materials is under $500. per job. All of my Handyman work falls under that category. Nevertheless, most trades do require a State license of some sort but that is if the business performed is over and above the $500 limit. For example, installing the gate - as referred to previously - was NOT a repair (neither was it at a 'structure' refered to in the BP code). It took about 6 hours and material $50. The bill was well under the imposed limit. Is there risk and opportunity to circumvent the law, of course, but I chose not to. I apply integrity and honesty in all aspects of my business. Neither do I consider myself hypocritical by joining any organization which imposes a rule I can not conduct a legitimate business under.

ip

Garry Sorrells

12-09-2010, 06:07 AM

Ian,
Interesting, no lic req under $500. I can see why so many illegal aliens flock to CA.
I guess the state legislature only was interested in protecting those home owners that have money to spend on the larger projects or more expensive items. $500 doesn't go far today but even the smallest job should offer protection for the home owner, though licensing is not perfect it helps.

Parsing the definitions of repair and work is interesting.
Has there been any formal legal president established to confirm your position on repair vs work?
Has anyone been taken to task for performing work and it being deemed as repair?
Or, has CA Licinsing Board posted a formal position on what their interpretation is?

Gregory Booth

12-09-2010, 07:15 AM

Not permitted, yes in conflict.

See Sections referenced earlier above and referenced in the following thread relative to California: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/16228-tpr-valve-drain-pipe.html

Additionally, the length of copper corregated flexible connctions (inlet and outlet of water heating storage type vessle) are further limited as to length by the CPC.

Hard drawn copper tube. Pressure and temperature ratings. Corregated copper flexible connectors are pre-manufactured, approved/listed as an assembly, and cutting off the threaded connector on the terminal end is an adulteration of the product. These are also not designed to be connected end-to-end and doing so would be violative of the instructions.

See additional notations and discussion on the above (clickable link) thread, and you'll also find references in other threads on the subject.

We are talking about storage type water heaters which are of a reasonable size such as pictured, not insty-hot devices or thse with minimal gallon capacity, right?

Don't think I saw anything about corrugated connectors-I believe the question related to soft, or flexible copper tubing.

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-09-2010, 11:32 AM

Don't think I saw anything about corrugated connectors-I believe the question related to soft, or flexible copper tubing.

Gregory Booth,

The question referred to flexible copper.

I addressed both possibilities.

What about the CPC earlier citation and language I provided earlier in the instant topic discussion, my prior posts in the instant topic discussion, the referenced other topic discussion, and the reference to "hard-drawn copper pipe" in my responses did you find lacking, regarding addresing the possibility of soft copper tubing for a TPRV discharge in California?

Previously posted Citation:
608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper pipe and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to the outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610 mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152 mm) abovethe ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building's crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.

Gary's question:

Thinking of just starting different thread, but since you all are here.

Is if in conflict with code to use flexible 3/4" copper to go 190 degrees around WH. No elbows just a continuous curve?

I can see how code strives to reduce friction and increasing pressure by restricting the number of 90s or elbows. Thus the idea of a curved line application to going around WH.

My response:

Not permitted, yes in conflict.

See Sections referenced earlier above and referenced in the following thread relative to California: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...rain-pipe.html (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/16228-tpr-valve-drain-pipe.html)

Additionally, the length of copper corregated flexible connctions (inlet and outlet of water heating storage type vessle) are further limited as to length by the CPC.

Hard drawn copper tube. Pressure and temperature ratings. Corregated copper flexible connectors are pre-manufactured, approved/listed as an assembly, and cutting off the threaded connector on the terminal end is an adulteration of the product. These are also not designed to be connected end-to-end and doing so would be violative of the instructions.

See additional notations and discussion on the above (clickable link) thread, and you'll also find references in other threads on the subject.

We are talking about storage type water heaters which are of a reasonable size such as pictured, not insty-hot devices or thse with minimal gallon capacity, right?

And CPC requires pressure testing of 100 PSI OR One-and-one-half times the system or componant exposure, which ever is higher.

Nobody wants TPRV discharge "a-flipping" and "a-flopping" around when exposed to high temp or high pressure relief evacuation, or expansion/contraction to dislodge from airgap - or so restricted that it fails or causes another componant to fail, when subjected to forces of thermal expansion or contraction.

Further, it must not be able to be pinched, crushed, bent, or otherwise restricted.

Gregory Booth

12-09-2010, 12:04 PM

H.G.--While I can't say for sure, I think that post 78 was, most likely, referring to soft, flexible copper tubing. You have, I believe, assumed that the reference was to corrugated, flexible,copper connector-assemblies. You missed the intent of the question--why don't you just say so...better yet, just say nothing (for a change). And BTW, learn how to spell corregated(sic).

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-09-2010, 12:17 PM

Ah, yes the old typo/spelling complaint. Petty. You had no problem determining my intent. When you're down to one-handed stylus typing and have more than 8 decades under your own belt, perhaps if you're still living and walking, you can try walking in my shoes. In the meanwhile you may "can" your pettiness regarding a question that was not yours, and your determining what Garry S was or was not asking.

As far as my having missed anything regarding the intent of Garry's question, that is up to Garry to decide, not you.

I addressed both soft copper and copper water heater connectors, both are flex, neither are allowed for a TPRV discharge in California.

Ian Page

12-10-2010, 01:12 AM

Garry

California is obviously a border State but I don't think it tops the list for an undocumented workforce. A State 'Handyman' lic. (Home Improvement Contractor) was available a few years ago (repealed 2004) but for some reason the Legislature did away with it in preference to having 43 identified trades having individual licenses. A General Contractor's lic. provides a limited 'umbrella' license but the work I perform would not fall under its definition. Furthermore I have no interest in becoming a GC and my work does not solely consist of any of the other trades mentioned. I basically perform DIY stuff for people who are unable to DIT. As for 'protecting the public' - I am a registered business with Business lic. 99% of my work is from referral or personal knowledge. I have built up quite a large client base over the years and my reputation with them is unblemished.

I assume that because the old Handyman law was repealed, the legislature did not recognize this service or licensing requirement as a significant problem. I am not aware of any legal precedent being set over the wording of BP 7197. I have sought legal advice and opinion from the Contractor's Lic. Board and BBB on which my business model is based and to that extent, follow the applicable law.

ip

Garry Sorrells

12-10-2010, 05:15 AM

Ian,
Again interesting. In today's society allowing anyone into your home that is not Lic ., Insures and Bonded is a grave mistake. Even if its to just screw in a light bulb (a little unde $500). I have a small but active segment of business that I service which require some real simple (do it your self) work. But the allowing of random workers onto your property is foolish on nothing other than the simple liability of the property owner. I am sure that the law changes had nothing to do with those that should not be there in the first place.

Thanks for your reply

Robert Hronek

12-10-2010, 10:55 AM

Why not extend the PVC across the closet behind the WH. Have a pipe reducer on the pvc with the larger end pointed up. Now extend the copper pipe so it is over the reducer with the required air gap. Use the largest size cooper pipe that is reasonable.

The goal is a safe discharge from the TPR valve and to collect the discharge. A typical discharge is a small amount of water followed by dripping as the valve can not reseat due to lime/scale deposits. A massive discharge is likely to overwhelm any drain pipe if there is an air gap.

David Bell

12-10-2010, 06:35 PM

I think this thread has lasted longer than my first marriage! But there was more arguing here. Code unfortunately is always going to be interpreted by human beings that see things differently.

Rick Cantrell

12-11-2010, 05:55 AM

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-11-2010, 07:45 AM

"Here's the gist, Jerry; Lines 1 and 2 require that if the T&P is to be discharged into the sanitary sewer, then the T&P must be discharged into a trapped indirect drain, within the same room, and with no less than a 1" air break/air gap."

That should be "not less than 1.5" air gap", not 1".

I'm probably gonna hate myself for posting this.:(

Where in the California Plumbing Code or otherwise are you basing this? Citation, please.

Flood level includes the flood level rim of a waste receptacle or fixture.

2006 plumbing chapters of the IRC are not applicable in California.

California utilizes Uniform Plumbing Code and Uniform Mechanical Code basis for its codes, at least at the present (modified with state-wide ammendments and local ordinance/code ammendments/further restrictions). The UPC, and the California Plumbing Code are more restrictive than the I-codes, a "higher" standard, i.e. more restrictive.

Regards another's "all 'trade size' being equal" argument, that is erroneous and in conflict with the actual language from the CPC, the UPC, and the standards for which the TPRV are manufactured to.

Again, the CPC citation offered several times already specifically states regarding the discharge for such valves:

[quote] '...that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing...'

Regarding any unlicensed contractor, including a unlicensed contractor "HANDYMAN" performing work irrespective of the dollar amount in or upon a residence in California, and especially those operating under the "apparent loophole" of the "less than $500" ... There is no requirement that said homeowner, tenant, occupant, etc. has to PAY for such work, even when performed ... and such proclaimed deblts are unenforceable - by lien, by litigation, small-claims or otherwise, there is NO basis to do so - expressly in California law, lack of a contractors license is an affirmative defense - and unlicensed work is deemed un-meritorious of payment, and unlicensed contracts (verbal or otherwise) are deemed un-worthy of enforcement.

Rick Cantrell

12-11-2010, 09:48 AM

Where in the California Plumbing Code or otherwise are you basing this? Citation, please.

Since you asked
The Cross Connection Control Manual published by the University of Southern California, which is approved, accepted and adopted by most states (including California) as the standard for cross connection control.
I do not have my manual with me, but a quick search found this:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/fccchr/airgap.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/fccchr/airgap.html)

An Air Gap is a physical separation of the supply pipe by at least two pipe diameters (never less than one inch) vertically above the overflow rim of the receiving vessel. …

Two pipe diameters of the ¾” pipe, which is 1.5”

Your welcome
Rick

Flood level includes the flood level rim of a waste receptacle or fixture.
Yeah, your point being?

2006 plumbing chapters of the IRC are not applicable in California.
I’m not talking about the 2006 IRC, but I understand why you thought I might be.

California utilizes Uniform Plumbing Code and Uniform Mechanical Code basis for its codes, at least at the present (modified with state-wide ammendments and local ordinance/code ammendments/further restrictions). The UPC, and the California Plumbing Code are more restrictive than the I-codes, a "higher" standard, i.e. more restrictive.
OK, but is there anything in it that is contrary to what I’ve said?

I don’t see where anything you’ve said below has anything to do with what I said.

Regards another's "all 'trade size' being equal" argument, that is erroneous and in conflict with the actual language from the CPC, the UPC, and the standards for which the TPRV are manufactured to.

Again, the CPC citation offered several times already specifically states regarding the discharge for such valves:

[quote] '...that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing...'

Regarding any unlicensed contractor, including a unlicensed contractor "HANDYMAN" performing work irrespective of the dollar amount in or upon a residence in California, and especially those operating under the "apparent loophole" of the "less than $500" ... There is no requirement that said homeowner, tenant, occupant, etc. has to PAY for such work, even when performed ... and such proclaimed deblts are unenforceable - by lien, by litigation, small-claims or otherwise, there is NO basis to do so - expressly in California law, lack of a contractors license is an affirmative defense - and unlicensed work is deemed un-meritorious of payment, and unlicensed contracts (verbal or otherwise) are deemed un-worthy of enforcement.

Rick Cantrell

12-11-2010, 03:16 PM

More than 5 hours and still no comeback.
Must be searching my criminal history, aliases, divorce papers.:eek:

H.G. Watson, Sr.

12-12-2010, 09:19 AM

More than 5 hours and still no comeback.
Must be searching my criminal history, aliases, divorce papers.:eek:

Rick Cantrell,

Uncalled-for-demanding impatience, petulance, rudeness, demanding and snarkiness, especially on an older, exhaustingly long thread and your latest revival of same.

A mere "air gap" as YOU have presented, at drain termination is not specified for relief valves installed indoors in california plumbing code and does not meet the requirements spelled out in CPC 608.5 for permissive approval as an alternate location for relief valve drain termination.

A 6" minimum termination of the relief valve drain above flood level of the area receiving the drainage IS specified. This "gap" at the discharge termination serves to release to atmosphere the energy (temperature and/or pressure) i.e. dissapate - in a safe location/manner prior to introduction to "the area receiving discharge". Minimum 6" superceeds a mere 1-1/2 times.

If you're not going to bother to refer to the applicable code or the quoted citations already provided, why should I bother responding to you or your obviously erroneous application of inapplicable information? Let alone within your 5 hours, and especially when you make snarky remarks.

CPC 608.5 does not use the word "gap" or the term "air gap". It does specify a minimum 6" elevation termination above the flood level of the area receiving discharge - that includes the flood level rim of a receptacle receiving that drainage - and thereby requires indirect 6" gap to be minimally considered as another "approved location" for drainage for same.

"Such drains may terminate at other approved locations" must do so meeting the "SHALL" requirements for such drains for relief valves installed indoors. This includes minimum 6" and not to exceed 24" "gaps" and that the drain termination "points downward".

A mere "air gap" as you have described does not meet with, superceed or comply with the requirements for CPC 608.5 for RELIEF valve drains. Unlike a washing machine discharge, for example, a relief valve discharge located inside a building, in California which may further be in a confined space but accessible, observable, and with ready access, and at a wide range in elevation/atlitude - requires more than you suggest, at a minimum, in California.

Some equipment requires even more stringent requirements. Depends on the manufacturer and the equipment, and its approval status and/or limited acceptance in California.

Rick Cantrell

12-12-2010, 11:47 AM

"Uncalled-for-demanding impatience, petulance, rudeness, demanding and snarkiness, especially on an older, exhaustingly long thread and your latest revival of same."

You are right, it was uncalled for, my apologies.

However, you seem to think it's perfectly OK for you to question everyone about anything. You question their motives, and qualifications, demand citations and references. But let someone respond to you with a comeback and you don't like it at all.

If you think I'm wrong, then show me where I'm wrong.
I'm here to learn, and hopefully even to teach others on occasion.
You seem to be an intelligent and educated person.
But You seem to always want to fight someone.
Use your education to help others instead of being so antagonistic

BTW
I was responding to a post that said a 3/4" pipe needed a 1" air gap
I said
The air gap on a 3/4" pipe is not less than 1.5"

I provided a link to USC that showed the same.
Again, If you think I'm wrong , I'm listening.
Oh, and try to keep it on topic. You many times drift away from the topic, and make obscure references that I don't understand.

Are you here to learn or to teach?
From what I can see you don't do either.
An Inspector should not only find faults, but also tell why it's a fault THEN say what should be done.
All you do is find faults, almost never do you offer advice or constructive criticism.

And my guess is, there are more than a few people on here that are saying to themselves, "I wish I'd said that".

Jerry Peck

12-12-2010, 04:12 PM

"Uncalled-for-demanding impatience, petulance, rudeness, demanding and snarkiness, especially on an older, exhaustingly long thread and your latest revival of same."

You are right, it was uncalled for, my apologies.

I thought you were describing H. G. Watson in that quote, then I went back and re-read the posts above and say it was the reverse ... I wonder why I first thought it was you describing H. G. Watson ... ???? :confused:

:D

Rick Cantrell

12-12-2010, 04:20 PM

"I thought you were describing H. G. Watson in that quote, then I went back and re-read the posts above and say it was the reverse ... "

Yeah, when I read it I was thinking
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Rich Goeken

12-13-2010, 05:35 AM

Hay Guys!!!

Have a Happy Holidays!!!! :D

Rich

Widdershins Saunders

12-14-2010, 04:09 PM

Uncalled-for-demanding impatience, petulance, rudeness, demanding and snarkiness, especially on an older, exhaustingly long thread and your latest revival of same.

Well, this is both interesting and educational.

It's interesting to know that the personality conflict between Jerry and myself isn't the only personality conflict to beset this board -- OTOH, it's educational to know that two participants I follow the most closely wouldn't urinate on the other if he were fully engulfed in flames.

Widdershins Saunders

12-14-2010, 04:51 PM

I've found that bulldogs spend more time licking themselves after marking their territory than they do anything else.

Other than that, they are pretty useless.

Jerry, given your contributions to this thread to date, it is immediately apparent you couldn't find your own arse armed with a map and a flashlight.

Probably because you act you are a bull in a china shop and you think you can run over others by using "attitude".

No, Jerry -- I run over others in the name of bringing the cost down for my clients.

There is a framework and process for challenging the decisions/ineptitude of Code Inspectors for a reason -- Namely, because AHJ's are human, and subject to the same arrogance, narrow-mindedness and arseholiness as that of the rest of humanity.

Fortunately, here, you will run into people who actually use their brains and think more than they try to bully their way through things, and when that happens ... the bull is distracted by the red cape, which is when the bull gets speared ... then we get together for a bar-b-que ... and we do not have to go far for the steak to through on the barbie either, its just been freshly speared. :D

I imagine most folks reading that were every bit as offended by your assumption that you speak for them as I was.

Here's the deal, Jerry -- A quick perusal of this forum shows that most of the regulars view you as a necessary evil -- You seem to have a fairly decent grasp of the oft varying codes of the land.

OTOH, it is immediately apparent you haven't taken the time to keep yourself current on the varying Code cycles, adoptions and Amendments.

Not unlike that other post in another thread where I asked about what it meant when John shot the bull with Jerry ... :cool:

Deflection noted.

... and someone responded that we were having bar-b-que!

Deflection noted.

Widdershins, you really do need to come to grips with what little you can do and that being a bully does not always get your way.

And therein lies the rub, Jerry -- You're one of those 'holier than thou" sumbitches who thinks his word is the 'Final Word'.

D00d -- I've laid so many of you arrogant arseholes to waste over the past 40 years that I finally stopped counting some 20 years ago.

Jerry -- I know that you're so drunk with power you'll never fully understand this, but humor me nonetheless -- I know exactly who you are, exactly which licenses/accreditations you hold (including the expired ones you claim to hold) and exactly how much power you actually exert, not so much, actually.

Pray you never face me in a Court of Law.

This thread and your ineptitude will be Exhibit A.

Jerry Peck

12-14-2010, 07:53 PM

OTOH, it is immediately apparent you haven't taken the time to keep yourself current on the varying Code cycles, adoptions and Amendments.

I doubt that you will find many, if any, who would agree with that, but, that statement is further evidence of ... (see below) ...

And therein lies the rub, Jerry -- You're one of those 'holier than thou" sumbitches who thinks his word is the 'Final Word'.

D00d -- I've laid so many of you arrogant arseholes to waste over the past 40 years that I finally stopped counting some 20 years ago.

... further evidence of that you described yourself quite accurately - thinking that you know ... make that 'knowing' that you know ... (in your own mind, you think you 'know') ... more than anyone else.

Jerry -- I know that you're so drunk with power you'll never fully understand this, but humor me nonetheless -- I know exactly who you are, exactly which licenses/accreditations you hold (including the expired ones you claim to hold) and exactly how much power you actually exert, not so much, actually.

So, you can read after all, as in reading my web site ... wait, you can't read can you, because if you could then you would know that I don't claim to hold any expired licenses/accreditations- you would have read that they are certifications I previously held, such as my Certified Pest Control Operator, which I did not renew in 2006 as I no longer had any need for that license given what it cost yearly to maintain that license. You will find that true of the certifications I no longer hold or hold as inactive (until this past year I held both my Certified Building Contractor and Certified General Contractor as active, and finally placed my Certified Building Contractor as inactive as there is absolutely no reason to maintain both as active - my Certified General Contractor can do everything my Certified Building Contractor can do ... and more ... so there was absolutely no need for me to have kept it active for the last 8 years or so that I have kept it active.

But you would know that stuff ... if ... if you could read and if you did read.

Pray you never face me in a Court of Law.

Yes, I would be quite embarrassed to eliminate you so quickly, I really like people who are more knowledgeable and challenging, as that causes me to learn more about more things, which I like doing.

From your posts ... it is quite obvious that you dislike learning more about things. That it is either 'your way' or 'get-out-of-your-face' ... which just what causes people who actually know how little you know to stand there and endure your spitting while trying to educate you.

This post, and your others, have shown more about you than you planned, and it is not a pretty sight to behold. :rolleyes: