Glued Copper Pipes?

[Michael Chambers]

A fellow inspector found copper water pipes glued, possibly with clear epoxy, instead of soldered. Is this an acceptable repair? Does anyone know what the glue is that is approved for this? Thanks a lot for your help!

[Rick Cantrell]

A fellow inspector found copper water pipes glued, possibly with clear epoxy, instead of soldered. Is this an acceptable repair? Does anyone know what the glue is that is approved for this? Thanks a lot for your help!

No, not acceptable to glue copper.

[Michael Chambers]

No, not acceptable to glue copper.
That's what I thought! I tried to add photos to my original note. That was successful, but it ended up starting another thread. Sorry for the confusion there!

[Steven Saville]

Looks like there is a product which does just that... Welcome to the Just-for-Copper Home Page!Â*Â* Brought to you by Jackson Industries, Inc. and JACO! (http://www.justforcopper.com/)
I don't know anything about how good this is though. Having been a plumber, I prefer soldered connections. Other new products on the market are the "shark-bite" fittings which are quite interesting, but not proven over the long term so we'll have to wait and see,

[John Kogel]

I have a question. If you decide to solder those joints, how will you take them apart? :D


Copied from Steven's link:
"JACO is the cooperative business of the Jackson and Coba families and specializes in bonding and thread compound materials for copper pipes, connectors, and threaded fittings.
In the early 1990’s, the government of Colombia, S. A. was searching for a copper bonding material that could be used to install the copper pipe in the natural gas infrastructure in the city of Bogotá. The bonding material could not require heat or generate heat, which eliminated epoxies.
Grupo Corassa, S. A., owned by the Coba family, formulated the product which later became trademarked as JUST-FOR-COPPER Solderless Copper Bonding. After six years of testing, it was approved by the Government of Colombia and a federal specification was written authorizing only the use of JUST-FOR-COPPER on the copper pipes within the natural gas systems throughout the country of Colombia. The first use of JUST-FOR-COPPER was in 1998. There have been millions of bonds using JUST-FOR-COPPER since that date, and there has never been a failure attributed to JUST-FOR-COPPER.
Jackson Industries, a marketing and distribution company, and Grupo Corassa formed a business relationship in 2003. Grupo Corassa manufacturers the product in Bogota, Colombia, and Jackson Industries markets JUST-FOR-COPPER around the world.
In addition to the United States of America, JUST-FOR-COPPER is sold in Canada, Mexico, Japan, European Union, Australia, and many other countries
JUST-FOR-COPPER is the only product that bonds copper that does not require heat or mixing. JFC is a single part bonding agent that forms a covalent bond with the copper that has been tested to simulate 50 years of use without failure."

Link to the pics:
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/26106-glued-copper-pipes.html
(http://www.justforcopper.com/Default.htm)

[Jack Feldmann]

I have not seen this stuff, but looks pretty cool.

[Bode Cavallaro]

Interesting. I understand why its used on gas pipe but I wonder why someone would use it on water pipes?
Some thoughts on that:
Water in pipe makes soldering next to, if not, impossible.
Mechanic does not know how to solder.

Bode

[Bode Cavallaro]

Turns out all of the above. I should have looked at JFC website first before my last post.

Bode

[Jerry Peck]

Took me a while to find it, but ... here it is:

"
Q. Will JFC PRO conduct electricity?
A. No! JFC PRO is an insulator
"

So much for using that on piping systems which need to be bonded ... EVERY joint would need to be jumped, just like with the SharkBite fittings.

[Rick Cantrell]

From the 2006 IRC
P2904.13 Soldered joints. Soldered joints in tubing shall be
made with fittings approved forwater piping and shall conform
to ASTM B 828. Surfaces to be soldered shall be cleaned
bright. The joints shall be properly fluxed and made with
approved solder. Solders and fluxes used in potable water-supply
systems shall have a maximum of 0.2 percent lead. Fluxes
shall conform to ASTM B 813.

What is shown in the picture are solder type fittings, not glue type fittings. Solder type fittings are not approved for use with glue.
Glue is not approved therefore it is not acceptable.

[Jerry Peck]

From the 2006 IRC


P2904.13 Soldered joints.

Soldered joints in tubing shall be

made with fittings approved for water piping and shall conform
to ASTM B 828. Surfaces to be soldered shall be cleaned
bright. The joints shall be properly fluxed and made with
approved solder. Solders and fluxes used in potable water-supply
systems shall have a maximum of 0.2 percent lead. Fluxes
shall conform to ASTM B 813.

What is shown in the picture are solder type fittings, not glue type fittings. Solder type fittings are not approved for use with glue.
Glue is not approved therefore it is not acceptable.


That's not exactly what it is saying (although I wish it did ... sort of ... but it would then eliminate new and innovative products, which are, by the way, allowed under alternate methods and materials in R104.11). All the above really states is that a soldered joint must meet that ... IF the joint is soldered ... but if the joint is not soldered it does not apply (and copper joints are not required to be soldered, see P2904.18 below).

This allows the SharkBite fittings (i.e., copper not being required to be soldered):
- P2904.18 Press joints. Press-type mechanical joints in copper tubing shall be made in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions using approved tools which affix the copper fitting with integral O-ring to the tubing.

Even this only addresses the material and quality of the material, not the method of installation (i.e., not soldering of the pipe and fittings together):
- P2904.6 Fittings. Pipe fittings shall be approved for installation with the piping material installed, and shall conform to the respective pipe standards listed in Table P2904.6. Pipe fittings used in the water supply system shall also conform to NSF 61.

Then there is this, but it does not require soldered joints in pipe either:
- P2904.8 Joint and connection tightness. Joints and connections in the plumbing system shall be gas tight and water tight for the intended use or required test pressure.

What is going to be the real kicker is that such an installation would be, like a SharkBite installation, an interior metal water piping system which would be required to be bonded, and the joints would break the electrical continuity of the bond, which means that EACH and EVERY joint and fitting would need to have a bonding jumper across them.

I talked with the plumber yesterday, the plumber who is using the SharkBite fittings for installing tankless units, and to date he has been using the SharkBite fitting onto CPVC coming out of the wall, then using copper for the short plumbing piping to the tankless unit - thus not requiring any bonding or bonding jumpers, but ... he had come in to ask some questions about his next installation and that was indeed a copper piping system - he is now aware that he will need to install a bonding jumper all the way from the first SharkBite fitting to the last SharkBite fitting. Installing the bonding jumper will be easy, he will clamp the bonding jumper to the pipe before and after the first and last SharkBite fittings, bend the copper bonding jumper to follow the copper piping, then install a clamp on EACH section of copper pipe. As he said: "No problem, I'll just have to buy a few more clamps is all." Problem solved.

I can't see the problem being solved when (if) the entire branch water piping system was copper and either the SharkBite fittings or the glued joints.

I am interested in seeing if anyone has been able to find a code section which would prohibit those glued joints - I may just be missing it.

[Michael Chambers]

Took me a while to find it, but ... here it is:

"
Q. Will JFC PRO conduct electricity?
A.No! JFC PRO is an insulator
"

So much for using that on piping systems which need to be bonded ... EVERY joint would need to be jumped, just like with the SharkBite fittings.
Excellent point Jerry! Thanks for catching that one! Just another example of why this forum is really a great resource!

[John Kogel]

Jerry, if the glue or the connector breaks the electrical continuity of the copper pipe sections, only those pieces longer than 10' need to be bonded. :D

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, if the glue or the connector breaks the electrical continuity of the copper pipe sections, only those pieces longer than 10' need to be bonded. :D

Yes, because it is a "metal water piping system", with "system" being key.

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

That last part is going to be hard to do if the piping is concealed within the wall. :D

[steven x johnson]

Yes, because it is a "metal water piping system", with "system" being key.

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

That last part is going to be hard to do if the piping is concealed within the wall. :D


i know this thread is two years old but i just thought i would mention... a year ago i had a client have a solder joint fail under a concrete slab. i jack hammered access and found where someone had capped off an old branch and the cap had popped off... access was impossible . after a bit of research i found this " just for copper " and after cutting off the bit with solder stains on it i was able to clean the nub with 60 grit in the manner they described and , using this product , glue a cap back on. i figured worse case was it was garbage and i had to jump thru flaming hoops anyway and best case it saved me and him a lot of work. its been a year now and no issues. i am well sold on this stuff. they also make a version for various metals to various metals and i have used it to glue railing into interface fittings and the stuff is as good as welding. pretty amazing as far as i'm concerned... this is the carribbean where noone inspects anything and i can't speak to how this stuff would get by in the states under a formal inspection but i think its great stuff.