Association Accreditations

[Bruce Ramsey]

There are several accreditation programs available from associations and private enterprises. Each claims that their "certification" is worthwhile and difficult to accomplish therefore has meaning and will draw clients.

I operate in a licensed state. In over 5 years only one potential client has ever asked if I belong to any associations. Never have they asked if I hold any specific certifications. Occasionally they may ask why they should choose me over other potential inspectors. Theoretically these certifications can be used to differentiate me.

There is a state wide home inspector association in North Carolina. Currently the only requirement is to pay your dues. There is a fraction that would like to develop a tiered membership where in members who complete a series of tasks are granted a designation that they and the association can market to say that these members have met a higher standard and are more worthy.

Just curious of those holding association certifications like CMI, ACI, RHI, or similar saw an increase in customers as a result of their holding the various certifications.

If you were developing a certification or stratified membership for an association, what do you think would be worthwhile achievements to be included?

[Lisa Endza]

Each claims that their "certification" is worthwhile and difficult to accomplish therefore has meaning and will draw clients. Those are not the reasons that the CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR professional designation "draws clients."

[Ken Rowe]

If you were developing a certification or stratified membership for an association, what do you think would be worthwhile achievements to be included?

Whatever the requirements, they should be verified. Non-proctored testing and affidavits by the inspector don't mean anything.

[Lisa Endza]

Read post #2.

Consumers don't research qualifications in depth. They certainly don't demand to know what percentage of the pre-licensing or continuing education courses required to earn a particular professional designation included exams that were proctored. Besides, proctoring doesn't verify competence or make an exam more difficult, it only verifies identity. Consumer choice of inspector is made in under 20 seconds, often in less than 5 seconds.

Again, qualification research is not the reason that the CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR professional designation "draws clients."

[Scott Patterson]

Who knows if the alphabet soup that folks use behind their names attracts business. Like Bruce, I work in a licensed environment and I have found that folks call me or find me most of the time via a past client referral or from my website. I can attribute about 10-15 inspections a year that come directly from the ASHI website.

ASHI's highest membership level is the ACI (ASHI Certified Inspector). ASHI is the only home inspector organization that has had their certification process verified and approved by a third party organization. No other home inspector organization has been able to accomplish this; I belive one other has attempted but was unable to accomplish it. It took ASHI about 3 years to acquire approval of their certification process through the NCCA.

Most if not all professional certifications are self serving and are only recognized within that organization or profession.

[Lisa Endza]

Most if not all professional certifications are self serving and are only recognized within that organization or profession.Scott is right!

No consumer takes the time or energy to research to find out how many years it took the association the inspector belongs to, to go through some approval process created by some other organization. You only get 5 - 20 seconds.

Again, qualification research is not the reason that the CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR professional designation "draws clients."

[Lisa Endza]

Try this for an exercise.

Imagine that you grab your ladders and flashlights and a few extra changes of clothes and climb into to a silver space ship and fly to a new planet. This new planet is much like earth only the consumers decide what inspector to use very quickly, within seconds. They don't do much research. Which one do you think will work on this strange new planet?
I am a member of a society that took 3 years to go through some approval process from some other organization that used to certify wedding planners and so now I'm a registered candidate that took a proctored exam from the national achievement institute of council-sanctioned associates, bla bla bla.or
I'm a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR.?

You tell me which one sells you in the 5 seconds the consumer invests in the decision.

BTW, your silver space ship didn't reach a new planet. It just went up into space, turned around, and landed back on earth. Right or wrong, earth is where you have to make a living.

[Ken Rowe]

The name can be as flowery as you want, but without verifying who the person is and verifying their credentials it's meaningless. I'm not talking about a name to dupe the uneducated public, I'm talking about having an association and designation which stands out from the rest. Something its members can be proud of and which the educated public will have confidence in. Not a marketing tool

[Lisa Endza]

CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is both (criminal background check, documented proof of 3 years in business, 1,000 inspections/continuing education hours). It is the highest professional designation an inspector can earn and it is a marketing tool that works like nothing else (consumers who know nothing about our industry instantly recognize it as the best of the best).

[James Duffin]

In NC a CMI designation will not allow you to do an inspection so what good is it? Same as having a car with no drivers license...pretty uesless.

[Ken Rowe]

(consumers who know nothing about our industry instantly recognize it as the best of the best).

Exactly, people who know nothing about our industry. Those who know the industry; inspectors, real estate professionals and the educated consumers know the truth.

If you read what Bruce originally wrote, they already have a State Association and would like to develop a tiered membership. He didn't ask what association to join and I'm sure they're not interested in popping $1,000 each for a self title which only impresses people "who know nothing about our industry".

Notice how nobody who holds a CMI designation has responded?

Bruce, this year it looks like I'll get about 50 inspections for being an ASHI Certified Inspector. I don't use it behind my name because nobody outside the profession knows what it means anyway. I do use the logo on my website and have many first time buyers who've attended a class call me because I'm an ACI. Apparently people instructing first time buyers seminars are telling them to find an ACI.

[Bruce Ramsey]

CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is both (criminal background check, documented proof of 3 years in business, 1,000 inspections/continuing education hours). It is the highest professional designation an inspector can earn and it is a marketing tool that works like nothing else (consumers who know nothing about our industry instantly recognize it as the best of the best).

The proposed requirements for the tiered membership exceed the CMI requirements. 5 yr min in business, 1000 inspections, min. 20 hrs CE annually, reports reviewed annually to ensure compliance with licensing requirements, community service, and association service. Candidates must re-apply annually due to ongoing CE, report review, and service. Since we are licensed, all home inspectors have already gone through a background check and must report annually to the licensing board if they have any misdemeanors or felonies. A proctored exam is required to get a state HI license.

CMIs do not meet the minimum requirements for the proposed designation. Nor do ACI or RHI or any other designation we have found in the industry.

Please do not comment on which alphabet soup is best. Don't care since we are creating a NEW designation. I asked if anyone is seeing any business as a result of having the alphabet soup. I don't care which if any association you may belong to. I just want to know if anyone saw a rise in business because you have ANY designation. Thank you.

[Ken Rowe]

I'd also suggest a liability and E&O requirement if your state doesn't already require it.

[Bruce Ramsey]

I'd also suggest a liability and E&O requirement if your state doesn't already require it.

The state requires one or the other but not both. If liability only, then you gotta have assets of $17k

[Jerry Peck]

The name can be as flowery as you want, but without verifying who the person is and verifying their credentials it's meaningless.

That what Lisa is saying: that "Certified Master Inspector" has no meaning and the consuming public DOES NOT CARE ENOUGH TO CHECK ON IT - You could call yourself "Certified Doctoral Inspector", "CDI", "Inspector PhD", "I PhD", "Certified Inspector PhD", "CI PhD", "Certified Inspector PhD", "CI PhD" - all of the forgoing are copyrighted by Jerry Peck, 2011 and earlier ... whenever it was I posted those the last time ... :D


I'm not talking about a name to dupe the uneducated public,

YOU aren't, but LISA is ...

... and Lisa has a point - the public, by and large, does not care enough to check out the credentials ... they are just looking for something which "sounds good" and "looks good".

[Rick Cantrell]

"... and Lisa has a point - the public, by and large, does not care enough to check out the credentials ... they are just looking for something which "sounds good" and "looks good"."

Thats it exactly

[Marc M]

CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is both (criminal background check, documented proof of 3 years in business, 1,000 inspections/continuing education hours). It is the highest professional designation an inspector can earn and it is a marketing tool that works like nothing else (consumers who know nothing about our industry instantly recognize it as the best of the best).

1,000 inspections huh...? Still a newbie IMO.

[Lisa Endza]

Confused, James writes:
In NC a CMI designation will not allow you to do an inspection so what good is it? Same as having a car with no drivers license...pretty uesless. It sells inspections for licensed inspectors who are CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTORS. How is that "useless?" Read Jerry's posts. The public doesn't research anything. CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR sounds good to their ears. That's all that matters to your bank account.

Jerry writes:

... and Lisa has a point - the public, by and large, does not care enough to check out the credentials ... they are just looking for something which "sounds good" and "looks good".Now if someone starts posting some nonsense about CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR's requirements being too low or too high, or that we should raise the 1,000 to 2,000 or that we should require insurance, or anything else about the actual requirements, I'm going to scream. I have no idea if the requirements to be a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR are too easy or too difficult or too little or too much and I don't care to know. All I know is that the professional designation sells inspection jobs, for reasons Jerry explained.

[Stuart Brooks]

Accreditation has to be more than drawing clients. It is my personal opinion that nachi is marketing, marketing, marketing. Not much meat on the table but lots and lots of marketing. Who needs the marketing from nachi? Other than nachi in order to stay in business, mostly those just starting. Then there are some more experienced inspectors who apparently just think it may look good to belong to an organization but either can't meet or don't wish to bother with real verifiable requirements of other organizations. Of course, there are the 30-minute wonder boys who want to draw in as many suckers as they can in a day.

Note to Liza: I know you have a job to do but until you go into the home inspection business, actually inspect, report, and run the business, please leave your senseless rants about home inspector qualifications and certifications at the office. I don't believe anyone with any credibility, as a home inspector, who regularly visits this site considers a "marketing director" to have any qualifications to make credible claims regarding the subject nor will they miraculously see the nachi light and become converts.

[James Duffin]

Confused, James writes: It sells inspections for licensed inspectors who are CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTORS. How is that "useless?" Read Jerry's posts. The public doesn't research anything. CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR sounds good to their ears. That's all that matters to your bank account.

Jerry writes:
Now if someone starts posting some nonsense about CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR's requirements being too low or too high, or that we should raise the 1,000 to 2,000 or that we should require insurance, or anything else about the actual requirements, I'm going to scream. I have no idea if the requirements to be a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR are too easy or too difficult or too little or too much and I don't care to know. All I know is that the professional designation sells inspection jobs, for reasons Jerry explained.

I am not confused at all. Since no one will check anyway I can add any three letters after my name and accomplish the same thing. I think I will add the letters CMHI after my name and save the cost of your association membership.

[Lisa Endza]

Since no one will check anyway I can add any three letters after my name and accomplish the same thing. I think I will add the letters CMHI after my nameYou could. But there are several reasons you might want to get the real thing. CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR (written out) is much better than a few alphabet soup letters. Ask anyone outside of our industry. You'll see. Another reason not to make up qualifications is that if you ever get sued, the plaintiff's attorney is going to ask you what those letters mean and ask you how you earned them. There are many other reasons as well.

[Claude Lawrenson]

Lisa you mention in your last post about the importance of "how you earn them". Let me mention from my own personal experience, I was magically bestowed that much touted title of "CMI". Yes and I at least know of another, and yet another.

Let me also state this was gifted without ANY FORMAL PAPER WORK from me to validate or authenticate my background, let alone a criminal check, or sworn affidavit from a notary.

In fact it was questioned a number of times right on the NACHI forum. So you see the forum even provided more evidence that questions the value of the CMI.

It was a nice gift, however, it was one that I gladly relinquished. So I see the CMI as having many different levels of let's call it "credibility" in the home inspection industry.

Perhaps some of the naysayers of the CMI have made some valid points about its (CMI referenced) questionable rigor and defendability. Or is it just a credential one can purchase, or automatically bestow upon an inspector.

Take another example how within a matter of weeks the 14 CMI's in the Province of Alberta has grown to 35, which raises more questions and suspect concerns.

On another note it also raises the question about why certain education providers have been favoured over those that have applied many times.

You see the question once again comes back to marketability of credentials and the reality of how rigorous some really are, versus the apperance of actual rigor and authenticity required to achieve that "credential".

Just my humble opinion and personal experience!
I simply believe in earning my credentials.

Regards, Claude

[Marc M]

It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$
I dont know why Lisa bothers defending this program.
IMO, all associations are a joke. I've never booked an inspection just from an association in which I belonged. In the real world of HI, and when compaired to other forms of "qualifications", they mean little. At least here they dont.

[Lisa Endza]

Marc, all joking aside and I don't mean to offend you, but you are totally out of your mind. I think you might want to rethink your position after a review of this. (http://www.nachi.org/benefits.htm)

Walk into the light.

[Lisa Endza]

On another note it also raises the question about why certain education providers have been favoured over those that have applied many times.

Claude, I don't know why InterNACHI enjoys over 700 government approvals and accreditations. But I can guess.

[Marc M]

Marc, all joking aside and I don't mean to offend you, but you are totally out of your mind. I think you might want to rethink your position after a review of this. (http://www.nachi.org/benefits.htm)

Walk into the light.

What the heck is that? A list of discounts? See, you are such a Nachi Kool-aid drinker you cant get past the fact that someone disagrees with the Nachi way of life.
I live inspections every day. Never in all my years have I EVER got an inspection from any association. NOT EVEN YOURS. Its all about the money.

[Lisa Endza]

It isn't a list of "discounts." It is all the things that you absolutely need to get rich in the inspection business. You are either a businessman or you are not. If you just like doing inspections for fun, disregard my comments.

[Marc M]

It isn't a list of "discounts." It is all the things that you absolutely need to get rich in the inspection business. You are either a businessman or you are not. If you just like doing inspections for fun, disregard my comments.

So you are implying that if you dont do those things on that list of discounts you wont be sucessful, of "rich" as you put it? Anyway...
How do you explain my success or the success of so many in here who do not subscribe to the Nachi propaganda?

[James Duffin]

Thank goodess there is only one CMI guru within 50 miles of me. I was scared there for a minute! :rolleyes:

[Lisa Endza]

Marc, if you are not a businessman, the absurd value proposition offered (http://www.nachi.org/benefits.htm) will be of no use to you whatsoever and it wouldn't make you any more money each year. You'd be wasting your $365 by joining InterNACHI.

[Stuart Brooks]

Apparently, business is slow at nachi headquarters.
People, just ignore Lisa. Every time you punch back at her, it just makes her day. Make her sit in her cubicle by herself and give her nothing to do.

[Jerry Peck]

GUYS ... YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION ...

Lisa ... er ... Nick ... is selling MARKETING, and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH 'NACHI' or 'InNACHI' or whatever name it is currently, it has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH being a "Certified Master Inspector" - whether you are a 'master' inspector or not - THEY SAID YOU WERE.

To keep it simple, try this exercise:
- Home inspector John Doe advertises his business and says he is a member of ABCD, WZXZ, and MNOP inspection associations and has performed over 10,000 inspections.
- Home inspector Billy Bob advertises his business and says he is a "Certified Master Inspector", and then in small print says he belongs to HIJK inspection association and that he has "earned" this designation by performing "over a thousand inspections".

WHO do you think John Q., and Mary Jane, Public will call FIRST?

A betting man would say they will call the "Certified Master Inspector" FIRST - THEY ARE HIS TO LOSE, only then do then call inspector John Doe.

You guys keep talking about inspections and knowledge and qualifications, and experience and ... Lisa keeps saying "I have no idea if the requirements to be a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR are too easy or too difficult or too little or too much and I don't care to know." - Lisa does not know, nor does she care, about knowledge and qualifications and experience and ... Lisa is talking about MARKETING ... MARKETING ... as though it was nothing more than the difference between Coke and Pepsi.

Think about it before you reply.

[Lisa Endza]

Excellent post Jerry. Thanks for helping me explain it.

[Jerry Peck]

Excellent post Jerry. Thanks for helping me explain it.

The fallacy of that marketing that aspect is that, during good times, there will be many inspectors who only work with referral customers, and those referral customers will have NOTHING to do with anyone relying on a lame "Certified Master Inspector" gimmick.

The people who would call those so-called 'master inspectors' would have crapped their panties when they heard how long I would be at a house and what I would charge, so them not calling me to start with simply ended up not wasting my time, and I was never at a lack for inspections to be done on my time and schedule.

In times like these, though, with so many fewer people buying houses, and with so few inspectors who get enough referrals to survive and prosper on, that marketing is what may make the difference between staying in business and finding something else to do or going part time.

I am in NO WAY saying that Lisa is correct in her actions, or that her ... Nick's ... marketing is the way to go, I am just simply explaining *why it works* for so many in this market.

That marketing is simply treating all inspectors as being either Pepsi or Coke ... sooo ... which are you? Pepsi or Coke? (If you are partaking in that marketing scheme.)

[Dan Harris]

CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is both (criminal background check, documented proof of 3 years in business, 1,000 inspections/continuing education hours). It is the highest professional designation an inspector can earn and it is a marketing tool that works like nothing else (consumers who know nothing about our industry instantly recognize it as the best of the best).

I come back to this great site, almost three months later only to still the same marketing crap by a convicted person for de- frauding the public,[ by the state of Pa] still selling more crap and encourging honest inspectors to mislead and decieve the public on this site.

Is it only me or does anybody else notice a boy named Lisa :) posts back to back post on this site and the nacho rag at the same time.
Or I am let out of the loop and nobody told me nick and lisa live together and post on this site and the nacho rag within 2-3 min. often at 10-11- PM or sometimes 12 and 3AM :D
.
For what is worth nickos buy your on-line master certificiation DOES NOT require anyone to do 1,000 inspections.
Truth is some one could do 0 inspections, pay nick $1000 and simply by fill out a form stating they tried to be a home inspector for three years and did 1000 hr continued nicko aproved CE, and bammo your a nicko approved certifed master home insp.

[Lisa Endza]

Even if that was true, and it isn't, how would that change the marketing power of being a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR?

[Stuart Brooks]

Even if that was true, and it isn't, how would that change the marketing power of being a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR?

Honesty and integrity have to count for something in the business world.

[Lisa Endza]

CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is "honestly" the highest professional designation one can earn in the inspection profession. Be honest with your clients and tell them you aren't a CMI. LOL!

[Rick Cantrell]

Lisa

If you were to say that being a CMI or a member of iNACHI is a good business decision, because of the marketing, then you make a good point. However when you say that CMI are more qualified, have higher standards, well then, it would be laughable if it were not insulting.
Why would anyone marketing their service be insulting to their market group?

[Jerry Peck]

CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is "honestly" the highest professional designation one can earn in the inspection profession.

Now that is a joke ... you WERE joking ... weren't you?

That may be one of 'the most successful marketing ploys for home inspectors', BUT ...

... that IS NOT even remotely close to the highest "professional designation" ... :rolleyes:

I was explaining the marketing aspect of what you ... er ... Nick is doing, but that in NO WAY indicates any mark or level of "professionalism" or any "professional designation".

YOU may think that is equivalent to the Queen's ceremony where she Knights someone, but YOU are only in a play and when the play is done you will watch Nick remove the costume where he was playing 'the Queen' and all those inspectors who thought they were 'Knighted' end up with a fancy title with no actual meaning.

[Lisa Endza]

Jerry, the part of your forum post that listed the associations that have more difficult requirements than CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is not appearing in your post for some reason. I'll ask Brian to look into the issue. But in the meantime, could you list them again for us?

[Stuart Brooks]

Jerry, the part of your forum post that listed the associations that have more difficult requirements than CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is not appearing in your post for some reason. I'll ask Brian to look into the issue. But in the meantime, could you list them again for us?

It's just marketing isn't it? That's what you stated previously. Heck, there's been snake oil marketing for centuries. Honesty, integrity, truth in advertising, professionalism have nothing to do with, Right? Fill out a form, pay Nick, get your certification. Makes it all right. I'll say this, Nick owes you a big bonus for blind loyalty.

[Lisa Endza]

Wrong. I said the reason to become a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is for marketing purposes only. If you are doing it because you hope that overnight, all the consumers in the world are going to change and tomorrow morning they are going to start researching actual qualifications before they choose an inspector, you are dreaming.

Jerry can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is what he is saying in essence as well.

[Stuart Brooks]

Wrong. I said the reason to become a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is for marketing purposes only. If you are doing it because you hope that overnight, all the consumers in the world are going to change and tomorrow morning they are going to start researching actual qualifications before they choose an inspector, you are dreaming.

Jerry can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is what he is saying in essence as well.

One could claim to be have PhD in home inspection too. I really don't care. I have enough business to keep me as busy as I want to be and often more. Did I use marketing? Yes - through advertising, my website, and SEO. I didn't get into the business to "get rich". Anyone who does in the current housing market is not firing on all cylinders. You can make all the claims you want but reality is what it is. There is no open road to instant riches if you are honest. It takes hard work and dedication. An inspector can have all the titles and initials after their name they want but if they are totally useless "take the money and run" screw ups they won't last long anyway. If they paid nachi, Nick made his money and paid your salary. THAT is the bottom line here.

[Lisa Endza]

You are incorrect again. I don't work for them and never have. I wish InterNACHI had something like CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR. From a marketing standpoint, it is a wrecking machine.

[Jerry Peck]

Wrong. I said the reason to become a CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR is for marketing purposes only. If you are doing it because you hope that overnight, all the consumers in the world are going to change and tomorrow morning they are going to start researching actual qualifications before they choose an inspector, you are dreaming.

Jerry can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is what he is saying in essence as well.

As stated, I am correcting you ... that is NOT what you have been stating or bragging about or agreeing with me when I've been pointing out that it is all just "marketing".

Lisa, you really do need to think when you read and post here and before and after agreeing with people and what they have been saying.

I repeat: The above IS NOT what you have been saying. You have been saying that it is all marketing, and when I so clearly explained it was all just marketing - you said the I was right and told the others that it was just marketing.

Your ... er ... Nick's ... CMI is JUST MARKETING - that is all it is.

No one can blame you (as in the plural you and Nick) from trying to advance your marketing program, and no one can blame the others for recognizing snake oil when they see it.

Here is a famous quote:
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Abraham_Lincoln/), (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)
You (the plural use) fit that quote with: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, ... ", which is why you have your followers, and the rest of the quote is why some people came and left "... and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

Nick had offers of help to actually make his association into one which actually meant something, but instead he stuck with his marketing approach - so be it - and that is what he now has.

[Lisa Endza]

Nick had offers of help to actually make his association into one which actually meant something, but instead he stuck with his marketing approach - so be it - and that is what he now has.Countless government agencies and inspector licensing boards that have awarded InterNACHI over 700 approvals and accreditations for InterNACHI's free, online inspection courses (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm) disagree with you.

Can you name an inspection association that has been awarded more approvals/accreditations?

Jerry, even your own state of Florida's DBPR (http://www.nachi.org/florida-approved-education-provider.htm), DOFS (http://www.nachi.org/ben-gromicko-florida-approved-instructor.htm), and CILB (http://www.nachi.org/florida-approved-education-provider.htm) approved us, and it wasn't for our marketing programs.

[Jerry Peck]

Countless government agencies and inspector licensing boards that have awarded InterNACHI over 700 approvals and accreditations for InterNACHI's free, online inspection courses (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm) disagree with you.

Can you name an inspection association that has been awarded more approvals/accreditations?

Jerry, even your own state of Florida's DBPR (http://www.nachi.org/florida-approved-education-provider.htm), DOFS (http://www.nachi.org/ben-gromicko-florida-approved-instructor.htm), and CILB (http://www.nachi.org/florida-approved-education-provider.htm) approved us, and it wasn't for our marketing programs.


Not much else to say in this discussion than repeat this - you have proven it true:


Here is a famous quote:
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Abraham_Lincoln/), (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)
You (the plural use) fit that quote with: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, ... ", which is why you have your followers, and the rest of the quote is why some people came and left "... and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

"Please don't feed the animals!" We said PLEASE.:)

[Scott Patterson]

Countless government agencies and inspector licensing boards that have awarded InterNACHI over 700 approvals and accreditations for InterNACHI's free, online inspection courses (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm) disagree with you.

Can you name an inspection association that has been awarded more approvals/accreditations?

Jerry, even your own state of Florida's DBPR (http://www.nachi.org/florida-approved-education-provider.htm), DOFS (http://www.nachi.org/ben-gromicko-florida-approved-instructor.htm), and CILB (http://www.nachi.org/florida-approved-education-provider.htm) approved us, and it wasn't for our marketing programs.

Funny you should bring this up.. :)

Over the past few weeks, ASHI has been doing a marketing study and it seems that over the past 10 years ASHI National has had over 3,000 individual CE programs approved by the various states for CE. Then we have the individual chapters who have almost double that number, so I would say that Inachi is not the only organization providing CE for their members.

[Lisa Endza]

Well if you're counting merely hosting, I suppose the Marriot Hotel chain has us all beat. :)

[Mike Schulz]

(There is a fraction that would like to develop a tiered membership where in members who complete a series of tasks are granted a designation that they and the association can market to say that these members have met a higher standard and are more worthy.)

That is a crock and is self serving for those who are on the board and have allot of free time on there hands to acquire all that is asked and those who have no work. It is hard enough for those of us who work 12 to 16 hrs aday to keep up with the associations let alone adding more meaningless task to acquire a meaningless name.

Anyone with enough free time on there hands can achieve the proposed goals. Those of us who have a life and work long days may not but the lesser gets a certificate of achievement in a bullshit, worthless, snake oil, deceive the public name.

NCLHIA should focus on how to benefit all not just a few of the members. If it goes through I am sure many will leave and I will be one of them. :mad:

[Bill Mullen]

Who knows if the alphabet soup that folks use behind their names attracts business. Like Bruce, I work in a licensed environment and I have found that folks call me or find me most of the time via a past client referral or from my website. I can attribute about 10-15 inspections a year that come directly from the ASHI website.

ASHI's highest membership level is the ACI (ASHI Certified Inspector). ASHI is the only home inspector organization that has had their certification process verified and approved by a third party organization. No other home inspector organization has been able to accomplish this; I belive one other has attempted but was unable to accomplish it. It took ASHI about 3 years to acquire approval of their certification process through the NCCA.

Most if not all professional certifications are self serving and are only recognized within that organization or profession.

A couple of Canadian organizations, including the NHICC and CAHPI Atlantic, have also applied for review and accreditation from NCCA. I believe that third-party approval and accreditation provides validity to an organization and their credential. Anything less, as you say, Scott, is merely self-serving and not actually worth the paper they are written on.

I'm also not sure if the NCCA carries as much weight in Canada because after all, it is American. There are a couple Canadian accrediting agencies but their requirements are very lofty and expensive.

I'm sure that when the NHICC receives its approval, (and it is very close) the critics will downplay its importance because it is American.

Bill Mullen

Bill Mullen

[Raymond Wand]

Lisa

You continually go in circles.

Nick Gromicko has repeatedly stated that CMI is nothing but a marketing tool. He has given the title away numerous times with no conditions attached, no background checks, no affidavits! That is false marketing and fraudulent, and deceptive.

Even Nick gave himself a CMI and we know he is not even a seasoned inspector regardless what you are told to say and we can't take Nicks word for it as he has a credibility problem!

You offer no stats to back up any claims whatsoever! This is a repetitive theme with you as Nachi spokesperson. And contrary to your oft stated mantra that you know nothing about CMI or how it works, if that is the case why are you defending it?

The accreditation is a false credential. A one time fee where the money is shared amongst the cronies on the BOD.

Some of the so-called schools listed on the CMI site are not even active.

And as I have repeated numerous times no one in Canada has had their affidavits verified, nor have police background checks been completed.

Who is being deceptive and marketing falsities, you along with your boss, thats who!

Even your own members question the CMI designation, that is very telling.

I am warning everyone I can in my area to avoid anyone with CMI, let alone a Nachi member where anyone can obtain an online accreditation.

You're a paid employee, and are paid to defend the organization at all costs. This leads me to wonder about your own scruples.

[Stuart Brooks]

Lisa

You continually go in circles.

Nick Gromicko has repeatedly stated that CMI is nothing but a marketing tool. He has given the title away numerous times with no conditions attached, no background checks, no affidavits! That is false marketing and fraudulent, and deceptive.

Even Nick gave himself a CMI and we know he is not even a seasoned inspector regardless what you are told to say and we can't take Nicks word for it as he has a credibility problem!

You offer no stats to back up any claims whatsoever! This is a repetitive theme with you as Nachi spokesperson. And contrary to your oft stated mantra that you know nothing about CMI or how it works, if that is the case why are you defending it?

The accreditation is a false credential. A one time fee where the money is shared amongst the cronies on the BOD.

Some of the so-called schools listed on the CMI site are not even active.

And as I have repeated numerous times no one in Canada has had their affidavits verified, nor have police background checks been completed.

Who is being deceptive and marketing falsities, you along with your boss, thats who!

Even your own members question the CMI designation, that is very telling.

I am warning everyone I can in my area to avoid anyone with CMI, let alone a Nachi member where anyone can obtain an online accreditation.

You're a paid employee, and are paid to defend the organization at all costs. This leads me to wonder about your own scruples.

She would do well in Washington, D.C.:D

[Lisa Endza]

Ray. The most recent Province to adopt licensing, Alberta, grandfathered all CMIs. Nick has been going back and forth to Ontario to assure CMIs are grandfathered again in Ontario when Ontario adopts licensing next year.

I know, it hurts.

[Raymond Wand]

Lisa

I have contacts in government and licencing is not being introduced. There is chance of an election in Ontario due to the poor performance and questionable spending by the current government.

CMI is a false credential and I am pleased to see you engaging as spokesperson for your boss who could care less about public protection and more interested in lining his and his goons pockets.

But then again you like your leader have no credibility, like so many in your half arse outfit you are being duped.

[Lisa Endza]

There is chance of an election in Ontario due to the poor performance and questionable spending by the current government.Cry about CMI being used for grandfathering, cry about InterNACHI which now has approvals and operations all over the world, cry about your government.

[Raymond Wand]

Lisa

And you have no scruples presenting falsities about licencing in the hopes of gaining CMI's to jump on board and pay a meaningless $1000.

Don't preach to me about your ethics, Nicks, the ESOP and all the other baloney Nick and you are good at spreading.

At the very least buy a manure spreader less your jaw gets tired.

[Lisa Endza]

I can imagine how you are going to be crying when all the CMIs in Ontario are grandfathered like they were in Alberta, and you have to go to school.

InterNACHI, 65 countries, 235,000 page website, 905,000 post message board, 1,200 government approvals.

[Raymond Wand]

More baloney. Stats mean nothing much like CMI.

Per chance is Nick paying you per word regardless if its truthful or not?

Thanks for nothing. :D

[Lisa Endza]

More baloney. Stats mean nothing That's why I chose to post four verifiable stats.

[Raymond Wand]

There you go again Lisa ... your verifiable stats are not verifiable, they are compiled by your employer, not an independent third body. Your message is tiresome and holds no validity other than you thinking it does.

Secondly a message board, website and educational approvals are meaningless and do not relate to a meaningless title. And to top it off then Nick tries to pass off that a trademark registry as an endorsement which is more bull.

Heck even your own senior members on your fabled message board think CMI is a joke, you had better go punish them for having the balls to speak up and tell the truth.

Nice try skirting the facts from fiction.

:D

[Bill Mullen]

I can imagine how you are going to be crying when all the CMIs in Ontario are grandfathered like they were in Alberta, and you have to go to school.

InterNACHI, 65 countries, 235,000 page website, 905,000 post message board, 1,200 government approvals.

Raymond is so right when he denounces the CMI credential. Sure enough the CMI people were grandfathered in Alberta, but this was in a climate where the government did not want to put anyone out of business, and the poor bureaucrats were confronted by a person from Colorado who could convince them black was white. More interesting is that within two months the number of CMI's in Alberta miraculously jumped from 14 when licensing was announced to 68. All it took was $ 1,000 from each, so Nick cleared a cool $ 50,000 +. Two of these 'Masters' previously had applied to another approved organization (and were advised about their shortcomings) and their applications showed they had been in business for less than one year and one had fewer than 50 inspections under his belt........Nonetheless, the NACHI machine immediately annointed them both Certified Masters. (Ka-Ching !!!)

What the Canadian industry needs is an independent organization to offer a strong, common standard and make sure people have to meet the standards. I'm not thinking about any group now doing certifications. I'm thinking about a third party, such as AAAC or the Standards Council of Canada. That would take it out of the hands of individuals who stand to profit from the process and would place the industry in a much more credible position.
However, too many people inthe industry would object for this to ever become a reality.

[Lisa Endza]

That sounds reasonable Bill. There is one little problem with your thinking though. You are grandfathering regulation, licensing legislation, Trademark awards, and 1,200 government approvals too late. :p

It's an InterNACHI world, and you're living in it.

Ontario is next.

[Raymond Wand]

Lisa you are outright prevaricator and its very evident you will say anything in order to please your master. He has taught you well how to skew the real facts.

And in case you haven't read this quote below, its from your own forum..


Sure makes the CMI requirements and application process suspicious, doesn't it?

Perhaps some of you are now finally seeing why a handfull of us on the MB have been battling this for the last few years. All our negative remarks really did have a reason behind them. This affects all home inspectors credability, not just those that claim to be "Masters" of the profession. If this is what the "Creme de la creme" equates to, how does the public perceive the rest of us? By failing to make corrections to the program, the CMI program has become the laughing stock of the industry. Pity. It could have been so much more than was ever intended as a marketing ploy to dupe unsuspecting consumers. I think you and Nick have a big problem on your hands, your members are speaking out and all you can do is spread false information in order to make yourself and your organization look good. Shame on you.

Better call in the big guns the ESOP and discipline these outspoken members by having a few public hangings, that should keep everyone in line.

I think you need to brush up on the term public relations, thus far you seem not to be able to grasp anything other than mistruths, but then again you are reliant on a pay cheque.

You are also stuck in a groove repeating the same nonsense over and over, that tells me you are not capable of be truthful, let alone being able to present tangible facts.

I know I won't be disappointed with your non answers. :p

[Dan Harris]

Funny you should bring this up.. :)

Over the past few weeks, ASHI has been doing a marketing study and it seems that over the past 10 years ASHI National has had over 3,000 individual CE programs approved by the various states for CE. Then we have the individual chapters who have almost double that number, so I would say that Inachi is not the only organization providing CE for their members.

I didn't catch this post from a year ago..

This is great information to pass on to New and established inspectors, they DO Have another place to go for free and low cost CE, and they can get it from an association that they don't have to be embarresed to say they are a member of.,

[Lisa Endza]

They often teach our courses through our providers and don't even know it. If you knew how many industry vendors are actually wings of InterNACHI, you'd cry even louder.

InterNACHI, resistance is futile.

[Dan Harris]

They often teach our courses through our providers and don't even know it. If you knew how many industry vendors are actually wings of InterNACHI, you'd cry even louder.

InterNACHI, resistance is futile.

What ever, the truth is ASHI has been offering it's members continued education for 25 years. Nacho has only been around for 10 years and offering cont ed for the past 5 or 5 years .

If new inspectors want free stuff from an org that doesn't have a clue of the qualification of their instructors , oh well, facts are less than 5 % new inspectors make it past 5 years.
With nacho master certified inspectors, instructors like this guy..

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/31466-would-you-call-out-outlets-closets.html

Many of us that have made it past the five years, understand why the new guys never make it past 4 or 5 inspections, and appreciate the fact some orgs verify the source of information being passed on to other inspectors, PRIOR to approving CE credits.

[Raymond Wand]

Oh oh
Here is another quote from another senior member of Nacho... commenting on the open public side...


CMI is a crock of s h i t. It deceives the public into believing a "Master Inspector" is performing their inspection. Pure bull s h i t. Sad but true.

And another...

I'm not sure if it was ever free... but I do know it was $50 not that long ago (5 or 6 years ago?).

Nick himself has stated a few times in the last couple of years that the CMI designatiuon is strictly a marketing ploy. Don't believe me? Ask him yourself.

When discussions occur about the qualifications to be toughened, the only thing that happens is the fee get's raised. Currently at $1,000 USD.

Fact... I was qualified many years ago, and I refuse to participate until if and when the CMI program actually means something. I don't care what it costs, as long as it is appropriate for what it is. $1,000 for a marketing Logo? No F-ing way! Anyone spending that kind of coin for this is an idiot.

In my opinion, there are only a handfull of inspectors on this MB that are true Master Inspectors. Guess which ones are not!



and another...


Gee JJ, it seems that link doesn't work anymore. Go figure. http://www.nachi.org/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

CMI was tainted from the beginning. The 1000 total needed may have meant something if that was the starting point for inspections alone, but adding CEU's into the mix made it a farce. And what happens if the 1000 inspections were done poorly or with multiple errors? Nobody checks.

The opportunity to be a CMI without ever having inspected a home made it lose any credibility as an actual certification.

The background check, while it may sound good to the public, means nothing when it comes to being able to inspect or not inspect.

You only need look at some of the questions and answers that some CMI's or "pre-approved" CMI's write on this message board to determine whether the designation is worth the paper it is printed on.

There was a discussion several pages long about CMI but all the content has been removed because is was not flattering, and was truthful. Why do you suppose Nick had it removed?

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f11/honest-questions-certified-master-inspector-22936/

But in lieu of that missing info here is another link...Lisa you better get on this and have the thread removed...

Can I be a CMI without ever having performed an inspection? - InterNACHI Inspection Forum (http://www.nachi.org/forum/f55/can-certified-master-inspector-without-ever-having-performed-inspection-72214/#post911737)

Members of the public reading this thread would be well advised to stay away from anyone with a CMI logo on their site, better still boycott anyone who says their a Nacho member, you know the association 'Nacho' where you can become an inspector instantly after passing an online exam in less than 15 minutes... where there is no complaint process, where designations can be bought under the table...

Thanks Lisa you make my job so easy!

[Lisa Endza]

You mean they've been SELLING continuing education for 25 years. Who out there still pays for continuing education? Did they not get this memo? (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm)

[Ken Rowe]

You mean they've been SELLING continuing education for 25 years. Who out there still pays for continuing education? Did they not get this memo? (http://www.nachi.org/education.htm)

They've been selling education and you've been selling meaningless certifications. Which is worse?

[Lisa Endza]

Our 1,200 government approvals for our courses say otherwise.

[Lisa Endza]

ASHI #242887

https://www.homeinspector.org/join/application/default.aspx

LOL!

[Lisa Endza]

And here is that free Mastering Roof Inspections article series. (http://www.nachi.org/mastering-roof-inspections.htm)

Enjoy fellas.

[Raymond Wand]

Post 22 above from 2011.

Here is a person who was given his CMI gratis. Self explanatory. Calls into question the legality of a fraudulent title.




Claude Lawrenson (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/members/claude-lawrenson.html) http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/ca_evo/statusicon/user_online.gif
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Windsor Ontario
Posts: 60


Re: Association Accreditations
Lisa you mention in your last post about the importance of "how you earn them". Let me mention from my own personal experience, I was magically bestowed that much touted title of "CMI". Yes and I at least know of another, and yet another.

Let me also state this was gifted without ANY FORMAL PAPER WORK from me to validate or authenticate my background, let alone a criminal check, or sworn affidavit from a notary.

In fact it was questioned a number of times right on the NACHI forum. So you see the forum even provided more evidence that questions the value of the CMI.

It was a nice gift, however, it was one that I gladly relinquished. So I see the CMI as having many different levels of let's call it "credibility" in the home inspection industry.

Perhaps some of the naysayers of the CMI have made some valid points about its (CMI referenced) questionable rigor and defendability. Or is it just a credential one can purchase, or automatically bestow upon an inspector.

Take another example how within a matter of weeks the 14 CMI's in the Province of Alberta has grown to 35, which raises more questions and suspect concerns.

On another note it also raises the question about why certain education providers have been favoured over those that have applied many times.

You see the question once again comes back to marketability of credentials and the reality of how rigorous some really are, versus the apperance of actual rigor and authenticity required to achieve that "credential".

Just my humble opinion and personal experience!
I simply believe in earning my credentials.

Regards, Claude

[Lisa Endza]

Ray, this from Nick
CMI's requirements have evolved (increased) over the years.

The most recent evolution requires the applicant to submit (mail in) documented proof of being in the inspection business for at least three years.

Now one might complain that some inspectors became CMIs before this requirement was adopted.

But because this requirement was adopted more than three years ago, such a complaint would lack merit.

[Ken Rowe]

Our 1,200 government approvals for our courses say otherwise.

And we all know government never gets anything wrong.

[Lisa Endza]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All those governments all over the world and over 36,900 inspectors in 65 countries got it wrong.

Perhaps you should examine your forum signature.


ASHI #242887LOL!

Remind me not to ever go to the track with you. Talk about picking the wrong horse!

[Ken Rowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All those governments all over the world and over 36,900 inspectors in 65 countries got it wrong.

Perhaps you should examine your forum signature.

LOL!

Remind me not to ever go to the track with you. Talk about picking the wrong horse!

Sorry, but I don't go for the instant gratification offered to dupe the unsuspecting public. I earned my accreditation.

[Raymond Wand]

Ken

Its readily apparent that Lisa is a paid spokesperson for her task masters.

Since she needs to be employed in order to make ends meet she is not going to ruffle the feathers of the cheque writer, and takes her orders without question. She has made the obvious choice for the money rather than scruples.

Having said that and given the credibility of NG and his zealots ... well birds of a feather flock together.

I think we should have a lottery as to how long Lisa will be employed once she has been used as so many have by NG and then discarded to the trash heap of Nachi history.

Here today, gone to Maui. :D

[Ken Rowe]

Kevin,

Training and education offered by HI associations isn't the point here. Lack of actual accreditation is. Self-certification and flowery titles are worthless.

[Claude Lawrenson]

Education is not just about memorization or test taking. Formal education is the process of training and developing people in knowledge, skills, mind, and character in a structured and certified program. Education is also a socialization process where individuals have an opportunity to interact and learn acceptable skills such as norms, values, attitudes and a better understanding of rules and regulations.

"Thurow (1976) states, education generates inequality. The skills gap created in formal education between lower and higher educated individuals further extends during the working career. Moreover, the finding that undereducated workers acquire just as much or even less additional skills than their adequately educated colleagues in similar occupations confirms Heckman’s (1999) statement that the trainability of low-skilled workers is limited."

[Lisa Endza]

Education is not just about memorization or test taking.
I think you are right. That is why we use so much onsite video. Online video allows the inspector to inspect hundreds of different roofs with subject matter experts on each type. This can't be done from a chalkboard in a classroom.

[Claude Lawrenson]

To me one hour of reading Professional written articles is Continuing Education.
If you call it self certification consider the mess the world is in because students memorize what is needed on an exam and then 6 months down the road don't even now where they went wrong.
Then they carry that same info and train someone else as they climb the ladder so to speak. It is best to train in such a way that no mistakes can be made.
I do believe that the best type of teaching is what you "can remember" not what you remembered to pass.

Just as a follow-up - how can you quantify or measure what you can remember?

Mistakes are made - perhaps the slip and fall course (Fall Arrest) is one example of why people are trained and than tested on their knowledge. Yet slip/fall injuries still happen.