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Anthony Alderman
08-17-2007, 12:24 PM
had both sides of the 240 range breaker going to the range without a neutral or ground. Now how does that work???? Can it be right ? Seen it twice this week..
Tony

Bob White
08-17-2007, 01:16 PM
It'll work 'cause each leg of the 240 acts as "return" for half of each cycle, especially with the purely resistive load of an electric range.....


It ain't right, though. The chassis is floating, and is (very) prolly a shock hazard.:eek:

Bruce King
08-17-2007, 01:49 PM
True, no neutral needed for 240V only devices, ground there for safety.

But....

How do you probe the outlet when you check it?

I have found that the voltage indicator probes are hard to make contact in range and dryer outlets.

added with edit: I see now where you did not see the neutral at the panel end.....

Anthony Alderman
08-17-2007, 03:16 PM
Thanks guys,
It makes sense now as to how it can work also why it's not done anymore.

Jerry Peck
08-17-2007, 05:02 PM
why it's not done anymore.


Why what is not done anymore?

Things not being grounded?

240 volt circuits?

Anthony Alderman
08-17-2007, 08:24 PM
Why what is not done anymore?

Things not being grounded?

Running a 240 circuit with out a ground "not being done anymore". I know terrible sentence structure. Now ,for example, on a hot water heater, do you not use a neutral. Are the 4 wire plugs only for equipment that has a 120 component to it?

Matt Fellman
08-17-2007, 11:10 PM
Doesn't there have to be a neutral on anything with 110 stuff?

example- a range has a clock and light, a dryer has a timer and maybe a light but a water heater is just juice to the elements.

Anthony Alderman
08-18-2007, 05:24 AM
I guess that's part of what I'm wondering too. I would think there would have to be, unless the other leg can serve as a neutral also. Seems that would make for an unbalanced load though.

Jerry Peck
08-18-2007, 05:50 AM
Running a 240 circuit with out a ground "not being done anymore".

Running a 240 volt circuit without a ground should not have been 'being done' since the 1950/60s when grounding became required.

That's why I didn't understand the statement/question.


Now ,for example, on a hot water heater, do you not use a neutral.

Correct.

But ... it has a ground.


Are the 4 wire plugs only for equipment that has a 120 component to it?

Yes.

Anthony Alderman
08-18-2007, 05:55 AM
Thanks Jerry.

Also both the houses I was in were circa 40's so I guess that makes sense.

Jerry Peck
08-18-2007, 06:15 AM
Also both the houses I was in were circa 40's so I guess that makes sense.

Back then, and earlier, equipment grounding was not a requirement.

*IF* metal conduit was used, it was required to be grounded, but if metal conduit was not used, and metal conduit was not used with knob and tube and other methods, then no grounding was present.

Thus, you would find what you did: the two conductors for the 240 volt circuit, no ground (not required at that time) and no neutral (not required for a 240 volt circuit anyway).