Kitchen update electrical code

[Saul Bendersky]

With a kitchen renovation I have added an additional receptacle for the gas stove and a multi-wire branch circuit for the dishwasher/disposal. There is still only one original 1940's era 15amp circuit for the counter tops and the 24" spacing requirement is not met. GFCI was added to it.

Since a renovation was done will a later inspection when I sell my house flag this as a violation or just a recommendation?

[Stuart Brooks]

With a kitchen renovation I have added an additional receptacle for the gas stove and a multi-wire branch circuit for the dishwasher/disposal. There is still only one original 1940's era 15amp circuit for the counter tops and the 24" spacing requirement is not met. GFCI was added to it.

Since a renovation was done will a later inspection when I sell my house flag this as a violation or just a recommendation?

Depends on the inspector. I don't know the PA or Pittsburgh codes. Some places want a full upgrade when remodeling others don't require it. Some inspectors are dumb as a stump and wouldn't know one way or the other. Check with your local AHJ

[Jerry Peck]

With a kitchen renovation I have added an additional receptacle for the gas stove and a multi-wire branch circuit for the dishwasher/disposal. There is still only one original 1940's era 15amp circuit for the counter tops and the 24" spacing requirement is not met. GFCI was added to it.

Since a renovation was done will a later inspection when I sell my house flag this as a violation or just a recommendation?

"Since a renovation was done will a later inspection when I sell my house flag this as a violation"

I would say yes, a violation would be reported because the kitchen was 'renovated', and that would indicate that it was, well, "renovated", which it was not, it was only partially renovated.

Regardless of whether or not your local building department allowed you to not add the proper number of circuits and receptacles, the home inspector *should be smart enough* (although, as Stuart said, some are not) that issue will be on the report and the buyer will be aware that there IS ONLY ONE receptacle outlet for the 'renovated' -partially renovated - kitchen and THEY will likely want a credit to pay for, or help pay for, installing the proper circuits and receptacles in the 'renovated' kitchen.

Sometimes the holes one digs for themselves in not doing what is needed, required or not, come back as a tiger traps and catches the owner in the same hole they dug 'back then'.

[Saul Bendersky]

Thanks for the input. I don't know if I will get the wiring updated but will know not to argue with any potential buyer.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

You extended/expanded (added a receptacle) to the "1940s era" circuit (no ecg or insufficient ecg), and didn't bring same up to code standards..not allowed.

Apparently also added a circuit to supply a newly added garbage disposer and dishwasher (alterations of plumbing systems as well).

If you had pulled a SABC to supply your stove and added receptacles to serve a countertop area the pre-existing un-extended 1940s era circuit might have passed, but you couldn't and shouldn't refer to what you have described as a "rennovation". Look up what that word actually means.

Yep you should expect to get nailed for your unpermitted, uninspected alterations of the electrical system, and the circuit in question, in conflict with the codes. Likely you altered more than just the electrical system in your kitchen "rennovation", "remodel", or "redecorate", whatever you choose to call it, expect all to be called into question, esp. your plumbing systems (potable, DWV) modifications (newly modifying for installation of DW and Disp) if also without necessary permits, approved plans, inspections, etc. where required. (altering potable plumbing system, DWV, gas (cooktop or range), venting, etc.) Modern gas "stoves" require to be "sufficiently grounded" that's not likely with a 1940s vintage circuit supplied extension with undersized grounded conductor and insufficient grounding conductor (if present at all) and certainly not with a bootleg ground to plumbing pipes or on old armor.

Expect also your Insurance will likely not imdenify, or severely limit coverage and exclude significantly, if discovered modifications unpermitted, uninspected, or not to plan & min. code at time of alteration (extension of circuit, modifications to systems, etc.).

[Saul Bendersky]

H.G. - Sorry, I didn't mean to upset you. My original post was not clear. I did not extend the old circuit. The receptacle that I added for the stove is on a new branch circuit just for that.

Does the word "renovation" have a specific meaning in the code books? I did look it up and one of Webster's definitions is "to clean up" so can cover a lot. Realtors around here will call a house "renovated" if it has new paint.

My local government does not provide permits except for "buildings, additions, permanent or portable swimming pools, outdoor air-conditioning units, signs, dish antennas, lawn sheds, decks, fences, parking pads, excavation and filling."

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

H.G. - Sorry, I didn't mean to upset you. My original post was not clear. I did not extend the old circuit. The receptacle that I added for the stove is on a new branch circuit just for that.

Does the word "renovation" have a specific meaning in the code books? I did look it up and one of Webster's definitions is "to clean up" so can cover a lot. Realtors around here will call a house "renovated" if it has new paint.

My local government does not provide permits except for "buildings, additions, permanent or portable swimming pools, outdoor air-conditioning units, signs, dish antennas, lawn sheds, decks, fences, parking pads, excavation and filling."

Had to save that for a good laugh.

You list your location as "Pittsburgh" Commonwealth of PA has adopted minimum IRC, International Property Maintenance Code, NEC, etc.

As far as your claim that alterations, extentions of systems and new installations etc. are exempt is not going to fly, along with pigs.
Neighboring states to the greater Pitts area too have minimum codes relative to plumbing, mechanical, and electrical.

You have to actually apply to receive a permit from the authority, this also involves a fee.

Even work exempt from permit requirements must still be performed under the applicable codes.

Not beliving your latest nonsense regurgitation excuses either.

[Saul Bendersky]

Please don't twist what I said. I did not say exempt. I did not say anything about codes. I said that my local government doesn't provide permits except for what I listed. That is the information they gave me. It is not up to me to police them.

I posted here looking for advise, not abuse.

[Jerry Peck]

My local government does not provide permits except for "buildings, additions, permanent or portable swimming pools, outdoor air-conditioning units, signs, dish antennas, lawn sheds, decks, fences, parking pads, excavation and filling."

I suspect that came in part from here: BBI Permit Information (http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/bbi/html/permit_information.html)

However, here: BBI (http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/bbi/html/building_permit_residential.html) it says otherwise:
- "When You Need A Residential Building Permit: A building permit is required prior to the construction, enlargement, alteration, or repair of any building, structure, or part thereof."

And then there is this from here: BBI (http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/bbi/html/building_permit_residential_not.html)
- When You Don't Need a Residential Building Permit:
- - In accordance with section R105.2 of the 2003 IRC, as amended by the City of Pittsburgh, permits shall not be required for the following. Exemption from the permit requirements shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction.
- - - Installation of an uncovered deck; where the floor of the deck is no more than 30 inches above grade.
- - - Fences not over 6 ½ feet high (will require an occupancy permit – please call the Zoning Department at 412-255-2246).
- - - Retaining walls that are not over 4 feet (1219 mm) in height measured from the bottom of the footing to the top of the wall, unless supporting a surcharge.
- - - Water tanks supported directly upon grade if the capacity does not exceed 5,000 gallons (18927 L) and the ratio of height to diameter or width does not exceed 2 to 1.
- - - Sidewalks and driveways not more than 30 inches (762 mm) above adjacent grade and not over any basement or story below. Note: Concrete on grade may require approval by Zoning Department at 412-255-2246 and Public Works Department at 412-255-2737 prior to starting work.
- - - Painting, papering, tiling, carpeting, cabinets, counter tops and similar finish work.
- - - Prefabricated swimming pools that are less than 24 inches (610 mm) deep.
- - - Swings and other playground equipment accessory to a one or two-family dwelling.
- - - Window awnings supported by an exterior wall which do not project more than 54 inches (1372 mm) from the exterior wall and do not require additional support.
- - - Hanging gutters and downspouts.

The above tells me that you did need a permit, it also specifically states:
- Exemption from the permit requirements shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction.

The above is the best information we can give you.

[Darrel Hood]

Some of the folks on this forum seem to believe that every location has a government entity that will issue permits. However, in Texas, only in most municipalities are permits available. In non incorporated county areas, and in some small municipalities, there is no permitting authority. Also, there is no authority to perform inspections. I'm sure Texas is just an example and that similar situations exist in other states. Believe it.

Therefore, when many of the visitors to the forum say they are not required to have permits, it can be true. We should not treat them as ignorant, liars or kids who did not do their homework.

This means that many of the DIY visitors are using us as their only advisors. Be careful what you say.

[Jerry Peck]

Some of the folks on this forum seem to believe that every location has a government entity that will issue permits. However, in Texas, only in most municipalities are permits available. In non incorporated county areas, and in some small municipalities, there is no permitting authority. Also, there is no authority to perform inspections. I'm sure Texas is just an example and that similar situations exist in other states. Believe it.

Therefore, when many of the visitors to the forum say they are not required to have permits, it can be true. We should not treat them as ignorant, liars or kids who did not do their homework.

This means that many of the DIY visitors are using us as their only advisors. Be careful what you say.

The original poster stated he was from "Pittsburgh", and ... drum roll ... the information I posted above, and Watson posted, is applicable to ... drum roll ... "Pittsburgh".

A little reading would have noticed that obvious fact.

[Darrel Hood]

"I said that my local government doesn't provide permits except for what I listed. That is the information they gave me. It is not up to me to police them."

Jerry P., based on the quoted statement, there is a very good probability that Pittsburgh is the nearest city. BTW, what do drum rolls have to do with permits?http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Jerry Peck]

BTW, what do drum rolls have to do with permits?

The ones with cinnamon and sugar are nice, but the cinnamon and sugar gets all over the permits from sticking to your fingers. ;)

[Saul Bendersky]

I live outside of the city limits.

[Nikolay Kassabov]

I am remodeling my kitchen and bathroom. The local city inspector told me that the new outlets in the kitchen and bathroom have to be grounded. The problem is that I have a really old house and the old receptacles are not grounded. From reading the NEC, I can't seem to find anywhere stating that Bathroom and Kitchen receptacles have to be grounded. However, they do have to be GFCI. There is no way to bring a ground wire up to these receptacles without knock out some walls. I think all my countertop receptacles need to be GFCI with a label that they are not grounded, while the remaining kitchen receptacles can be replaced with non-ground receptacles.

Please advice!

Thanks,

Nik

[Harold Doughty]

I have to agree with Darrel on this one. I have a property in a remote part of Montana and no permits were required for me to build a house there. However, I pulled an electrical permit anyway, just in case power ever runs through the area (nearest pole 4 miles away). Allowing me the option of connecting my solar system to the grid at some point in the future.
However, all installations have to be done to code, regardless of whether or not permits are required.