View Full Version : another roofer hates me

William Mize
08-31-2007, 12:35 PM
Roofer maintains that there are two layers and I admit when I looked along the eve there were two layers, with the bottom being very deteriorated. But along this rake I count 3. And arent they supposed to install a starter course for the new layer I looked in several places and did not find any. The Guy does such a good job that he leaves a little extra on some shingles. Questions (1)would you count that as three layers, (2) should there be a starter course that will seal the shingles down.

Bruce Breedlove
08-31-2007, 12:57 PM
It is hard to tell by your pics (your camera is focusing on infinity rather than the nearby objects) but it looks like 3 layers to me. Three layers is not allowed around here.

Rick Hurst
08-31-2007, 04:24 PM
I hope you commented about the lack of pride in craftmanship. To just leave a plastic bottle under the shingle material and think no one will see it is criminal.

Git her dun.

imported_John Smith
08-31-2007, 05:12 PM
Thats the new shingling system "Redundanteed".

If you cant be 100% sure, report that you suspect multiple layers of shingles (>than 2), some of the problems associated with multiple layers of shingles, and that to truly determine the number of layers of shingles you would have to remove some (which is outside the scope of your inspection).

It looks like a pretty crappy job and will likely leak at some point (when the client will come after you for repair/replacement cost).

Jerry Peck
08-31-2007, 05:54 PM
Looks like it could even be 4 layers.

Richard Rushing
08-31-2007, 07:03 PM
By the way you separated them at the rake, I'd agree with 3 layers present.


Ken Amelin
09-04-2007, 03:54 AM
It looks like two layers to me.

Your screw drivers look like they are separating the shingles and not the layers. The courses overlap on layers, so you would see two shingle thicknesses for each layer.

William Mize
09-04-2007, 05:43 AM
The bottle and screwdrivers are mine, I used the bottle to hold up the shingles,and the screwdrivers to separate what i thought were layers. I do have one more pict showing a shingle that was not trimmed when the job was done. I do not have it with me to post, I will show it later.
Back to the question about the starter course, should there be a starter course for the overlay?

You guys are great and thanks for the help


Jerry Peck
09-04-2007, 05:44 AM
The courses overlap on layers, so you would see two shingle thicknesses for each layer.

That's why I said ... (see photo) :)

Erby Crofutt
09-04-2007, 12:58 PM
And the Seller, and the Seller's Agent


Someone else does something wrong. We point it out and almost everybody acts like it's our fault.

The closed cut valleys (where one roof slope joins another) are not installed properly. In a cut valley such as these, the shingles on the higher slope are supposed to overlap the shingles on the lower slope and the high slope is the cut shingle. On this roof, the low slopes overlap the higher slopes and the lower slope shingles are cut. This can let water from the higher slope run under the shingles on the lower slope.

Shingle manufacturer's void their warranties when the shingles are not installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. If conflict over these issues arises, consult the shingle manufacturer directly to ask if they will warranty the roof without the shingles being installed in accordance with their instructions.

Michael Thomas
09-04-2007, 03:53 PM
I've read it should be done this way, but I've not been able verify that any major manufacturer requires it be done this way. Here are the Owens Corning 3-Tab instructions, which are typical of what I've seen:

William Mize
09-11-2007, 09:05 AM
Just an update. The buyer asked me to contact the RE. I emailed the pictures I had taken and the pict that Jerry P. was so kind as to number. Teh RE said taht I should meet with the roofer and show him what was wrong. I told her that she had my pictures, my comments, and that if I met with the roofer I would probabally wind upn hurting his feelings. She laughed and said OK.

The house is junk but the buyer wants to buy it. When the seller fixes all the things I noted the house will be less junk, but still....

I hope that the repairs are done properlly

You guys are great and I learn something every day on this site, or is it cite or sight? :cool:

Oh, by the way the University of Oklahoma (OU for some of the spelling impaired) did soundly beat Miami; on to a great season.:D


Jim Gecz
09-11-2007, 03:20 PM

From what I see in your photos I disagree there is anything wrong with those valleys. Here is an illustration from an article in JLCOnline that I think shows best how to lay out the valley.

Or am I missing something here?


Richard Rushing
09-11-2007, 04:27 PM
Erby is right in one respect. It is always the higher slope that is cut back. However, it also the greatest pitched slope that gets cut back.


Jerry Peck
09-11-2007, 05:36 PM
Or am I missing something here?


Yes, but it was actually the author of drawing who mislead those who view/read it.

The main point that author appears to be trying to state (at least in my opinion) is the installation of the shingles, not which overlaps which.

"When shingling a closed valley, the author tries to avoid nailing through the aluminum flashing, so that it's free to expand and contract with temperature changes. The shingles that run through the valley are laid out so that nails can be placed on either side of the aluminum."

The author is more concerned about the ability of the valley metal to move than anything else. This is strange as every installation of valley metal I've seen has the valley metal securely nailed in place on both sides (in hurricane regions) or on one side (in some non-hurricane regions), I've never seen a valley metal for shingles installed with those clips - those clips look like 'slaters' clips and those used for System One Tile Roofs, both of which use that preformed valley metal with the returned edges - except that those also have a water diverter in the center, and the valley metal shown does not. Supposedly, the reason for leaving one side not nailed is to allow for that movement and not damage the valley flashing, yet historical evidence from South Florida shows that even more significant movement than expansion and contraction (movement of the roof during a hurricane) does not result in valley metal being torn (of course, though, down there the valley metal is galvanized 26 gage minimum or 16 oz copper.

The real reason to try to avoid the valley metal with the shingle nails is to not penetrate the valley metal (just like with any flashing - don't nail through it, all you do is make holes where you just installed metal to avoid holes - except for the nails which are used to secure the valley metal to the roof, same with any flashing).

As Erby stated, the high side roof shingles overlap the low side roof shingles. The reason is that there is more water, flowing at a higher rate, coming off the high side, this greater amount of water will overpower the water flowing down the low side, pushing the 'center' of the flow toward the low side of the valley center. In the drawing, and in Erby's photo, that would simply drive the water up under the overlapping shingles.

Trying to diagnose that drawing is like trying to separate different systems drawn all together - its like (to me anyway) the author has intermixed various materials from various systems (slate and shingles to name two) into one drawing.

Anyone out there seen an installation like that shown in the drawing? Curious because I have not and am wondering if the drawing is truly representative of any one given system for shingles.

Brandon Whitmore
09-11-2007, 09:30 PM
The only reason I know of for not installing fasteners through the valley metal is to prevent leakage. I have seen valley metal such as indicated in the picture on a "W" valley (open valley) and have used them. You can use the special clips to secure the metal or use roofing nails at the edge of the flashing so the head of the nail holds the flashing in place-- no fasteners through the flashing.

It gets pretty tricky trying to figure out which way to overlap the cut valleys at times. CertainTeed has a Master Shingle Applicator course that you can take for free that is very informative (may even qualify for CEU's). Just sign up on- line and they send you a book which is a good resource.

Erby Crofutt
09-12-2007, 05:08 AM
Go here:

GAF Materials Corp - Residential and Commercial Roofing (http://www.gaf.com/General/GafMain.asp?Silo=ARCH&WS=GAF)

Click on "Quality Shingles"

When it expands click on "How to do valleys"

That's just one manufacturer that is a quick reference readily available online.

Look at other manufacturer's instructions also.