Main breaker dissconect

[Martin Holtmeyer]

I just looked at a home that has a main disconnect located on the outside of the home, and a pannel located on the inside that does not have main disconnect and would require more than six hand movements to shut everything off. Violation?

[Jerry Peck]

I just looked at a home that has a main disconnect located on the outside of the home, and a pannel located on the inside that does not have main disconnect and would require more than six hand movements to shut everything off. Violation?

No violation.

That is a typical installation (in the areas I have been in) where the service equipment is located outside and the distribution panel is located inside.

The requirement is not to have no more than 6 mains to shut down a panel, the requirement is to not have more than 6 mains to shut down power to a structure.

[Martin Holtmeyer]

Thank you Jerry for the reply. I understand the code here.

[Bob Elliott]

Jerry do you happen to know if a sub-panel is required inside the living space of a Condominium or can it be down the hall in a locked closet?

This question came up because I had been in this high rise a few times before when first built in 2008 and they both had the remote panels but this one did not just last week.
My impression is that it is Okay if the owner has the key but the place has no 24 hour staff or live in Janitor and it is not always possible to obtain that info in time for the report.

[Robert Meier]

Occupants are required to have access to their service disconnecting means unless it meets the exception in 230.72(C).


230.72 Grouping of Disconnects.
(A) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in 230.71 shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked to indicate the load served.
Exception: One of the two to six service disconnecting means permitted in 230.71, where used only for a water pump also intended to provide fire protection, shall be permitted to be located remote from the other disconnecting means.
(B) Additional Service Disconnecting Means. The one or more additional service disconnecting means for fire pumps, emergency systems, legally required standby, or optional standby services permitted by 230.2 shall be installed remote from the one to six service disconnecting means for normal service to minimize the possibility of simultaneous interruption of supply.
(C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant shall have access to the occupant’s service disconnecting means.
Exception: In a multiple-occupancy building where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the service disconnecting means supplying more than one occupancy shall be permitted to be accessible to authorized management personnel only.

[Bob Elliott]

That is what I read and it seems a little foggy.
What is continuous supervision?

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry do you happen to know if a sub-panel is required inside the living space of a Condominium or can it be down the hall in a locked closet?

This question came up because I had been in this high rise a few times before when first built in 2008 and they both had the remote panels but this one did not just last week.
My impression is that it is Okay if the owner has the key but the place has no 24 hour staff or live in Janitor and it is not always possible to obtain that info in time for the report.

Their panel, not their main service disconnect, needs to be in their unit.

[Jerry Peck]

From the 2008 NEC:
- 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
- - (B) Occupancy. Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy, unless otherwise permitted in 240.24(B)(1) and (B)(2).
- - - (1) Service and Feeder Overcurrent Devices. Where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the service overcurrent devices and feeder overcurrent devices supplying more than one occupancy shall be permitted to be accessible only to authorized management personnel in the following:
- - - - (1) Multiple-occupancy buildings
- - - - (2) Guest rooms or guest suites
- - - (2) Branch-Circuit Overcurrent Devices. Where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the branch-circuit overcurrent devices supplying any guest rooms or guest suites without permanent provisions for cooking shall be permitted to be accessible only to authorized management personnel.

[Bob Elliott]

So in other words sub panels are required and in unit .

[Jerry Peck]

So in other words sub panels are required and in unit .

Subpanels are in submarines, distribution panels are in condo units. :)

[Corey Friedman]

Hi Guys,

Breaker panels are not required to be in apartments (or condo's).

Chicago does not follow the NEC.

An electrical panel (that is not a service entrance panel) that is located in a basement is subterranean and therefore a sub-panel :)


Corey

[Bob Elliott]

Hi Guys,

Breaker panels are not required to be in apartments (or condo's).

Chicago does not follow the NEC.

An electrical panel (that is not a service entrance panel) that is located in a basement is subterranean and therefore a sub-panel :)


Corey

Hi Cory ,I actually called you on this a few weeks ago and had a few different answers so been trying to be absolutely sure.

I have gotten any built after 2000,anything over 850 sq feet must have inside the unit.
Looked at AM legal and got the pretty much same wording as in the code Jerry posted also.

Jerry thanks for the reply however let me add I have text in every Electrical section of my reports that states as follows........(If main is not accessed of course)

For purposes of this inspection the visual portion of the electrical begins at the remote distribution panel.
The remote distribution panel is also commonly referred to as a sub panel.

I like simple and easy to understand as I never right for the Lawyers but always for my client.

[Corey Friedman]

Hi Bob,

I forgot that it was you I spoke to about this and thought this another person with the same issue. I thought that was odd, but its late and I'm tired.

The vast majority of electricians, home inspectors, AHJ inspectors, authors of electrical articles and books, and others in or related to the electrical / inspection professions use the word sub-panel all the time. It is standard jargon throughout the country. There are a few who don't like it and it has become a long running joke on this forum.

Have a great evening and weekend.

Corey

[Bob Elliott]

OK you have a great one too.

Cory was a teacher at one of my H.I classes years ago and would like to add very good at what he does.
Co Founder / Owner of the Bellman group.