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View Full Version : Mike Holmes said we need an IR camera



Dan Harris
06-08-2012, 07:42 PM
Mike Holmes' home inspection checklist (http://video.foxnews.com/v/1673502703001/mike-holmes-home-inspection-checklist/?playlist_id=86871&intcmp=obnetwork)

Gunnar Alquist
06-08-2012, 08:56 PM
Well, if Mike says so, I guess we had better order one right away.

I particularly liked his incorrect description of efflorescence.

Marc M
06-08-2012, 10:10 PM
Whatever...

Eric Barker
06-09-2012, 06:17 AM
He states that as a contractor he has a half million dollars in equipment and that his camera is a $20,000 unit.
He states that he can rip open walls because it's a Holmes inspection.

No wonder people's expectations can be so distanced from reality.

Nathan Thornberry
06-09-2012, 12:07 PM
Obviously, he's had some success so he's doing something right. At the same time, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say anything about the show other than a home inspector.

Of course, he doesn't check for recalls like many of you- so he's missing fire hazards if you want to tell folks at least one reason you're better :)

Garry Sorrells
06-10-2012, 07:21 AM
Well if you should have one then you should have a backup also.

It is mostly theater of the absurd. Like the home shows with 2 people appearing to do the work when in reality there is a crew of workers actually doing the work. The actors just act like they are doing the work for the cameras and it all gets done in 30 min or an hour.

It is not reality only reality TV which is not the same.

Welmoed Sisson
06-10-2012, 01:44 PM
It is mostly theater of the absurd. Like the home shows with 2 people appearing to do the work when in reality there is a crew of workers actually doing the work. The actors just act like they are doing the work for the cameras and it all gets done in 30 min or an hour.

It is not reality only reality TV which is not the same.

Amen!! A few years ago I worked on an episode of "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" as a seamstress (my former career). It took very little time to recognize the whole setup is scripted from start to finish; many of the "spontaneous" scenes were filmed over and over until the director was happy. We did crowd reaction shots several hours before the event we were supposed to be reacting to. The designer I was working with designed a headboard that didn't fit up the stairs, and once we cut it in two to get it upstairs, realized he had never measured the wall space for it... turns out it wouldn't fit. It ended up in the dumpster (of which there were many!!).

When the episode aired, I ended up being on screen at least four or five times (more than any other of the dozen other people sewing for the episode), and I'm convinced it's because I recognized what the deal was and played along with it.

Ever since that experience I haven't been able to stomach any "Reality" shows because of the total lack of reality behind them.

Ken Rowe
06-10-2012, 09:48 PM
Nope, you don't need an IR camera, just like you don't need reporting software or a digital camera.

You can fight technology or embrace it. You can fight Mike Holmes, a semi-media giant who nearly every home buyer is familiar with, or you can work with it.

You can try to eek out a living doing just the basics or you can thrive by offering an inspection that's better than your competition.

My IR camera paid for itself in two weeks, but the income from my increased inspection fee is still coming in. I hope this Mike Holmes segment goes national.

...and Eric, he stated as a contractor, building houses, he has half a million dollars in equipment. He's being modest. Most of the home builders I worked for had well over half a million dollars in equipment.

Raymond Wand
06-11-2012, 03:35 AM
Your iR camera paid for itself in two weeks? Wow.

Mike has no certifications for his IR.

His camera was given to him by Flir as Flir is one of his sponsors, ditto for most of his equipment, other sponsor supply it gratis.

I have seen Mike introduced on various TV shows and radio as a mould expert and asbestos expert, yet he holds no certifications to claim that.

Ken Rowe
06-11-2012, 08:24 AM
Mike has no certifications for his IR.

His camera was given to him by Flir as Flir is one of his sponsors, ditto for most of his equipment, other sponsor supply it gratis.

I have seen Mike introduced on various TV shows and radio as a mould expert and asbestos expert, yet he holds no certifications to claim that.

It doesn't matter if he has no certifications. He is perceived as an expert by the general public (our clients). He has extreme media access. Instead of wasting time and money trying to fight it, except it and use it to your advantage.

Jeff Zehnder
06-12-2012, 05:34 AM
For some reason there is a tendency to pound on anyone who sticks their neck out. Is Mike perfect...no of course not but for any faults you can find, his show is both entertaining and informative. Has he made some misstatements, of course but that is not the point. Is his opinion his opinion?... He is making good points and attempting to improve the industry. You do not need to agree with him at all but at least give him the benefit of the doubt and stop picking nits.

Scott Patterson
06-12-2012, 07:40 AM
Y'all remember Bob Vila? He was touted as an expert and the homes he built and remodeled were revered as some of the best homes one could buy. It took a few years for the claims and lawsuits to catch up with him but he faded into the sunset after several years.

I look at Mike as our Bob Vila.. albeit Vila had a little more class!

I think Mike is fine and has actually helped to educate the home buying public with what they need to look for in a home inspector. He touts experience as the number on factor to look for with a good home inspector. Like Bob Vila, he has become an expert in the eyes of the media watching public and if you try to disarm or dispute what Mike says or does you will not look very good in the eyes of those who watch his shows; and those are the folks that are buying homes and hiring home inspectors.

Garry Blankenship
06-12-2012, 08:39 AM
Certainly a different world when all costs and exposure is covered by media money. I admit being intimidated by the I.R. camera seemingly bottomlesss pit of equipment cost/s, training, maintenence, etc. However, it is the liability that concerns me most. If you have and use an I.R. camera, the standard / expectation / bar has been raised exponentially. If your use of a camera is known, you best not miss any moisture, interior wall leaks, excessive electrical termination heat or insulation problems anywhere. I suspect a good law smith could eat up an I.R. inspection regardless of the report quality.

Raymond Wand
06-12-2012, 11:05 AM
It seems every week I read about someone selling their iR camera.

Have been inspecting since 1991 and only have had one client request a iR scan and it was for a legal case I was working on.

There is no way I am spending $10-20K or more on a camera, I can't justify the cost nor do clients seem prepared to spend addtional monies on their inspection.

Nick Ostrowski
06-12-2012, 12:14 PM
It seems every week I read about someone selling their iR camera.

Have been inspecting since 1991 and only have had one client request a iR scan and it was for a legal case I was working on.

There is no way I am spending $10-20K or more on a camera, I can't justify the cost nor do clients seem prepared to spend addtional monies on their inspection.

I too have gotten very few requests for IR scanning, less than 10 over 9 years of inspecting. And around here, people love the idea of extra tests and inspections until they see what they have to pay for those services.

wayne soper
06-12-2012, 12:24 PM
I use an IR camera, 2 grand model, works fine for me.
I don't advertise it's use and I don't even tell customers what it is. I tell them it's atool i use to read temperatures in the home.
It makes my job easier and has allowed me to find leaks I may not have found othgerwise.
Also testing heat and a/c is easy and accurate.
I do agree that it is overboard
But I like tools, i can use the write off, and I sleep better
As fas as MH goes
Why does every panel he installs lay on its side?
Is that a Canada thing.
Doesn't fly down here.

Nick Ostrowski
06-12-2012, 01:16 PM
As fas as MH goes
Why does every panel he installs lay on its side?
Is that a Canada thing.
Doesn't fly down here.


I never watched a full episode of the show but did see one where the panel they installed was on its side. I didn't understand it either.

Raymond Wand
06-12-2012, 01:48 PM
Up here the panel can be installed horizontal or vertical.

Ken Rowe
06-12-2012, 03:11 PM
I use an IR camera, 2 grand model, works fine for me.
I don't advertise it's use and I don't even tell customers what it is. I tell them it's atool i use to read temperatures in the home.
It makes my job easier and has allowed me to find leaks I may not have found othgerwise.
Also testing heat and a/c is easy and accurate.


Basically the same as me. I am not a moisture intrusion specialist nor do I do moisture intrusion testing nor am I a thermographer, and I tell the clients this. I do not do entire IR scans on homes or perform energy audits, but use it for suspected problems I observe.

However, I do advertise, on my website, that I have it and what I use it for. I've also gotten several calls and jobs of locating in floor heating pipes and wires for peoples' remodeling projects.

Jerry Peck
06-12-2012, 04:04 PM
IR cameras are now quite good in the under$5k range. Years ago I paid over $13k (maybe $15k, don't recall exactly what I spent anymore) for the camera and training.

BEST INVESTMENT I MADE with regards to tools.

The key is to not get hung up in using it to find moisture (although it works quite well for that too), but to let you mind search out new ways to use it AT EVERY INSPECTION.

Over the years that I had my IR camera I would put 'using it to find moisture' at less than 20% of the time. The other 80% of the time I was using it for everything else I could think of: showing structural items which were missing, showing insulation which was missing, showing (anything which created a temperature difference on the surface I was reading.

The simple fact that I had an IR camera and used it on basically every inspection brought in untold new clients, which means 'more $$$$' ... so, if you are looking for increasing the number of $$$$ you bring in, I suggest starting with an IF camera, and it does not have to be a top of the line $60k camera, probably those $3k-$4k ones work just fine for the uses you will put it too.

Using the IR camera as I did will also make you look at structures differently, and make you look at your inspections differently.

I suspect the reason so many inspectors are selling their IR cameras is that they thought they were buying the latest and greatest moisture and mold seeking x-ray machine - and that is simply not what they are for.

Raymond Wand
06-12-2012, 04:20 PM
Hi Jerry

'showing structural items which were missing' How so? Thats a new claim, I have never heard that one. :confused:

I think if iR were so popular you would see more inspectors getting them. I know more inspectors who bought them for whatever reason and then sold them.

I am going to stick to my moisture detector.

Cheers,

wayne soper
06-12-2012, 04:44 PM
Ray,
If you are looking at a ceiling with no access above and the surface is smooth as MH's wallet.
You can't determine if framing was installed properly.
With the camera you can see the distance between studs or rafters in the temperature differential.
If an exterior wall is set at 3 feet on center because mo larry and curly were there, you can see it.
As you work with the camera you can just sweep the room and pick up abnormalities.
Now I am not by any way an expert with it as I am just starting with IR, but have found it very helpful.
It also confuses the brokers, which is not too difficult, but is alsways fun to watch:D

Steven Turetsky
06-12-2012, 05:04 PM
IR is a very useful tool but it is not the "Silver Bullet". Unfortunately there are those that sell it as such... in my opinion because it is all they have to sell.

I have a IR cam and although I use it all the time, I make it clear that the results are not always definative. There are cases where had I not had the cam I would not have gotten the job. There are jobs that the client does not want or can not get approval for probe testing, in which case IR is another level of testing (albeit not definative).

Prior to getting my cam, when a client asked if I did IR, I had to go through the whole spiel about IR not being definative, and had to hope I got the job. Now I simply respond "of course", and move on.

As far as Ken's claim to having paid for his cam in two weeks...:) .
And as far as his hope that the MH segment goes national...:) .

Nick Ostrowski
06-12-2012, 06:47 PM
Mike Holmes said in that video clip he can see mold inside walls with it. Huh???

Jerry Peck
06-12-2012, 07:28 PM
Mike Holmes said in that video clip he can see mold inside walls with it. Huh???

Remember ... that is an ACTOR on a TV SHOW.

That said, if there is enough moisture for the mold to be growing, it may be possible to see *the temperature differences* in the surface of the wall between where the mold is (moist, which will likely show as cooler) and no mold is (dryer, which will likely show as warmer). The 'cooler' and 'warmer' may depend on if the season is air conditioning or heating as there are circumstances in which the too areas change temperature relationships and the mold may show as warmer and the non-mold area may show as cooler.

Attached are some photos showing the differences in 'warmer'/'cooler' and 'cooler'/'warmer' caused by daytime and nighttime temperatures

Think some cells which were supposed to be filled were missed in the attached photos? The darker areas in the first two photos are the filled areas (the lighter areas in the third photo are the filled areas), the walls were filled in 5 foot lifts ... well ... were *supposed to be filled* in 5 foot lifts. Think they missed some cells, even some entire wall areas? :)

Jerry Peck
06-12-2012, 07:35 PM
Think some they missed some insulation in the attached photos?

Could not tell it from inside the house or from inside the attic, but if the insulation is not installed properly ... it is like it is not even there. Darker areas are from cold air in attic going right past the insulation which *was* installed in the attic ... just not installed properly ... but not such that I could see it from in the attic.

Dan Harris
06-12-2012, 07:57 PM
Jerry. the 6th photo looks there is someone having a drink in the attic :)

Nick Ostrowski
06-13-2012, 08:41 AM
Remember ... that is an ACTOR on a TV SHOW.

That said, if there is enough moisture for the mold to be growing, it may be possible to see *the temperature differences* in the surface of the wall between where the mold is (moist, which will likely show as cooler) and no mold is (dryer, which will likely show as warmer). The 'cooler' and 'warmer' may depend on if the season is air conditioning or heating as there are circumstances in which the too areas change temperature relationships and the mold may show as warmer and the non-mold area may show as cooler.

Attached are some photos showing the differences in 'warmer'/'cooler' and 'cooler'/'warmer' caused by daytime and nighttime temperatures

Think some cells which were supposed to be filled were missed in the attached photos? The darker areas in the first two photos are the filled areas (the lighter areas in the third photo are the filled areas), the walls were filled in 5 foot lifts ... well ... were *supposed to be filled* in 5 foot lifts. Think they missed some cells, even some entire wall areas? :)

We as inspectors understand that part but he said he can see mold with the IR cam. I'm all for him putting the home inspection profession on a higher plane and giving it more credence and publicity. But the accurate explanation would have been that the camera can help detect conditions that are conducive to the presence of mold.

Ken Rowe
06-13-2012, 09:35 AM
As far as Ken's claim to having paid for his cam in two weeks...:) .


When a person calls to place an inspection order we always ask how they heard about us and why they chose us. My camera cost a little under two grand. In the first two weeks after I posted on my website that I use an IR camera I got four $500+ inspection specifically because they saw I have an IR camera. I also got a job locating the wires for an in-floor heating system which was $175. And they continue to come in.

Yes, it's a cheap low res camera. But I'm not doing moisture intrusion testing or energy audits and it works well for what I use it for. As Steven said, IR is not the definitive answer for moisture or mold, in fact, the basic IR classes I took stated that several times.

Ken Rowe
06-13-2012, 09:43 AM
Mike Holmes said in that video clip he can see mold inside walls with it. Huh???


No, he said ...with the temperature difference he can see mold and all sorts of moisture issues.

Nick Ostrowski
06-13-2012, 10:56 AM
No, he said ...with the temperature difference he can see mold and all sorts of moisture issues.

I was incorrect about the "inside walls" part but he said he can see mold. The temperature difference doesn't mean there is mold there. It means that a condition exists that may be conducive to the presence of mold. When Mike Holmes puts himself out there as an expert and says the camera allows him to see mold, it creates an unrealistic expectation for the capabilities of the camera and what home inspectors do. Please correct me if I'm wrong here but it is my understanding that IR cams read temperature differences only. I have never heard it be said that these cameras can see mold. And a moisture issue doesn't mean mold is present either. It's just another condition that is conducive to the presence of mold.

I have no problem with IR technology. If it works for you and get you business, great.

Raymond Wand
06-13-2012, 01:02 PM
I have been reading up on this ability of iR to find mould. However the consensus seems to be that one might be able to see conditions which cause mould, however the camera is incapable of finding or seeing mould.

Big difference in my mind.

Jerry Peck
06-13-2012, 03:10 PM
We as inspectors understand that part but he said he can see mold with the IR cam.

That's why I said this first:

Remember ... that is an ACTOR on a TV SHOW.

:)

Nick Ostrowski
06-13-2012, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
Remember ... that is an ACTOR on a TV SHOW.

And that's part of the problem. The general viewing public don't see him that way. He's comes across as a champion for all homeowners who got screwed or were lied to. He may indeed know what he's doing and I have no doubt that he is very knowledgeable and experienced. But he also said a home buyer should ask an inspector if he has and IR camera and if he says yes, tell him to come on in.

Steven Turetsky
06-13-2012, 03:37 PM
As far as Ken's claim to having paid for his cam in two weeks...:) .


When a person calls to place an inspection order we always ask how they heard about us and why they chose us. My camera cost a little under two grand. In the first two weeks after I posted on my website that I use an IR camera I got four $500+ inspection specifically because they saw I have an IR camera. I also got a job locating the wires for an in-floor heating system which was $175. And they continue to come in.

Yes, it's a cheap low res camera. But I'm not doing moisture intrusion testing or energy audits and it works well for what I use it for. As Steven said, IR is not the definitive answer for moisture or mold, in fact, the basic IR classes I took stated that several times.

Ken,

Did you think my smiley face equated to doubt?

Ken Rowe
06-13-2012, 04:49 PM
Ken,

Did you think my smiley face equated to doubt?

Nope, I didn't know what it meant. So I decided to give further explanation of my personal experience so there would be less confusion.

Marc M
06-24-2012, 09:35 AM
Hi Jerry

'showing structural items which were missing' How so? Thats a new claim, I have never heard that one. :confused:

I think if iR were so popular you would see more inspectors getting them. I know more inspectors who bought them for whatever reason and then sold them.

I am going to stick to my moisture detector.

Cheers,

I think he's referring to this type of image. JP can correct me if I'm wrong.
I look for missing structural components all the time. Especially in room adds, but only if solar loading permits.

Marc M
06-24-2012, 09:40 AM
I have been reading up on this ability of iR to find mould. However the consensus seems to be that one might be able to see conditions which cause mould, however the camera is incapable of finding or seeing mould.

Big difference in my mind.

I agree with this 100%. I get calls from prospects saying other guys will find mold with the IR cam and I say, "you should use them".

Jerry Peck
06-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Hi Jerry

'showing structural items which were missing' How so? Thats a new claim, I have never heard that one. :confused:

Attached are some photos showing filled cells ... er ... where filled cells *should have been*.

One photo shows the filled cells as lighter areas, the other photo shows the filled cells as darker areas, the difference is the time of day and whether cold or hot - the filled cells take longer to warm up on hot days (thus the filled cells are darker - cooler) and retain the heat of the day longer as the walls cool at night (thus the filled cells are lighter - warmer).

You can see the 5 foot lifts they were filling the cells at, and where they did, and did not, fill the cells, and where they did, and did not, do the second lift.

And a third photo showing a well done wall with filled cells showing as darker, and you can even see the vertical webs in the blocks and the horizontal mortar joints.

You can see the unfilled cells which should have been filled - those unfilled cells which should have been filled are structural issues. Just one aspect of finding structural issues with an infrared camera.

Raymond Wand
06-24-2012, 12:37 PM
Hi Jerry

Thanks for the clarification, that clears it up for me.

Thom Walker
06-25-2012, 12:14 PM
At first I was disappointed when I discovered that the camera and certifications were not the gold mines I had envisioned. Over the years I have found the camera to be a valuable tool for verifying or refuting what I suspect; particularly in the air loss/ insulation areas and for tracking down the musty odor source.

It also makes really cool pet pictures!

Steven Turetsky
06-25-2012, 01:59 PM
At first I was disappointed when I discovered that the camera and certifications were not the gold mines I had envisioned. Over the years I have found the camera to be a valuable tool for verifying or refuting what I suspect; particularly in the air loss/ insulation areas and for tracking down the musty odor source.

It also makes really cool pet pictures!

I guess we all have different niches (and needs). Today I met a man who owns an inspection business that specializes in vibration analyzation and remediation.

Raymond Wand
06-26-2012, 04:37 AM
For amusement purposes only.
Thread: Mike Holmes Inspections - BEWARE

Mike Holmes Inspections - BEWARE - RedFlagDeals.com Forums (http://forums.redflagdeals.com/mike-holmes-inspections-beware-1102097/)

Raymond Wand
06-26-2012, 08:53 AM
Another thing I found out is that Mike gets a royalty for every Flir iR that is sold. No wonder he flashes his camera around every chance he gets.

Steven Turetsky
06-26-2012, 03:56 PM
Is the importance of this thread the value thermal imagining or the person who said it?

The right inspector can do a good inspection without Infrared, but the same inspector can do an even better inspection with IR.

The wrong inspector will do a bad job... even with IR.

Darren Breckler
07-16-2012, 11:16 PM
I find that people whom are critical of Mike Holmes always leave out the facts to which they argue. Did the I.R. camera show a substantial heat loss, yes, in order for you to find out why do you need to open up the wall or surrounding area, yes. Was there a problem, yes. Was it fixed, yes. And he always states, that in a home inspection the inspector will not open up walls or pull up carpet etc. But he very clearly shows you what they missed in plain sight or did not comment on for whatever reasons, mainly due to lack of experience in that particular trade; plumbing or electrical. Inspectors are not a guarantee that if they diddnt see it it is not there of a problem. Remember why hes there in the first place...Hmm Who really cares if he gets royalties. If all inspectors did as good as he does up in Canada, there would never be a show for some to criticize.

Raymond Wand
07-17-2012, 03:56 AM
Mike is not an accredited home inspector and holds no memberships.

He does not conduct the inspections, he subcontracts them out, and the fee is split between Holmes inspection group and the inspector.

Mike also is not certified in the use and interpretation in the use of his free camera.

He has been falsely promoted on TV, print and radio as an expert in asbestos abatement, mould, home inspector, and yet he has no accreditation to substantiate those claims.

Marc M
07-17-2012, 08:21 AM
Is the importance of this thread the value thermal imagining or the person who said it?

The right inspector can do a good inspection without Infrared, but the same inspector can do an even better inspection with IR.

The wrong inspector will do a bad job... even with IR.

Well said Steve.

Darren Breckler
07-17-2012, 07:50 PM
@ Raymond. I have been watching Mike Holmes shows for a while now and not once has he ever declared to be a home inspector. He specificall states the he is there to do a , "Holmes Inspection" Which means he uses his knowledge and tools as well as the home owners complaints and digs down to ALL issues he finds. Also he has never said he is an expert on asbestos abatement, he very clearly states that when ever he suspects there might be asbestos to call in the experts to be sure. Same thing with mold. If you can tell me which episode he said any of those exact words or if he said them anywhere like a radio show, please prove me wrong. I am a very open minded person and know when to admit Im wrong. But having seen almost every episode and having NEVER heard him claim what you say he has clearly shows at this point your comments are not fact based. And to the other poster regarding his camera, Im wasnt aware that you had so much insight on what exact purchases Mr Holmes has made ? Please fill me in on what he has bought VS free gifts................

Dan Harris
07-17-2012, 10:08 PM
Darren

It took a bit to dig it up!

Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News Videos (http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-friends/index.html#/v/1673502703001/mike-holmes-home-inspection-checklist/?playlist_id=86912)

Kevin.. Why did it take you so long to dig it up??

Most Non Master Certified Inspectors on this site would have find it, [your link] . on the first post of this topic :D

Raymond Wand
07-18-2012, 02:49 AM
Darren

He (Mike) has been introduced on Dr. Oz as a abestos expert and mould expert.
I have heard him being interviewed on radio (CFRB) extolling how he was going to re-write the inspection standards. When I called in and questioned him about the current standards and how they were tried and true, and recognized by the courts and how he would go about changing it all and having his SOP recognized, he got testy and the radio station cut me off.

However I do agree that the episode I have viewed I too have never seen him openly state he is a home inspector, but perception is everything and he is looked up to by the public as an expert in home inspections.

Cheers,

Dan Harris
07-18-2012, 08:30 AM
[QUOTE=Kevin Wood;203274]At least I can right a complete sentence that makes sense.
QUOTE]

Yea your write :)

You claim to be a master inspector and instructor.. Me I'm just a lowly inspector that failed to change a word after I re-rightted :) my post

Thom Walker
07-18-2012, 01:04 PM
I don't begrudge MH anything. He found a pony to ride to the bank and he hopped on. That said, he enters a situation when something is already evident. That's quite an advantage and I love those kinds of jobs. I make far more money than I do on a regular Home Inspection, with none of the liability.

I do resent the two very different circumstances being presented as though they are the same.

Re the cameras, they are valuable tools, but I disagree that one cannot be a good general inspector unless he has one. And if he is not trained on it, he should not be using it.

Darren Breckler
07-18-2012, 05:04 PM
After watching the link, the only thing I find is that he does say he can see mold with the camera. If theres more please inform me and I will watch again.

Markus Keller
07-18-2012, 05:37 PM
I use 'mold like substance' in my reports. Also explain that it needs to be tested to verify what it is exactly, blah, blah, you know the drill.

Raymond Wand
07-18-2012, 05:59 PM
I use the word mould.

Inspected a 125 year old house today, the basement with dirt floor, stone rubble foundation, poor site grading, poor downspout management.

The basement reeked of mildew odour, was damp, the earth was wet, water staining, rotting wood column bases.

My client suffers from respiratory illness. I reported observable mould and rot.

The previous inspection a pre-listing inspection done by another inspector never even mentioned the water issues, let alone the rot and mould.

My client was very pleased and passed on the house.

I call a spade a spade I am not about to sugar coat a mould issue given the litigation which I have read about by those who neglected to say anything.

In my opinion if there is a lot of mould screw the testing and that is recommended by CMHC who state any mould should be treated as bad and the conditions fixed which created it; water entry.

Markus Keller
07-18-2012, 06:06 PM
Maybe someday you Canucks will learn to spell proper english without all that british and french influence :D

Stephen G
07-18-2012, 06:09 PM
and all the computers spell check to USA english,,,very frustrating...:mad:


Maybe someday you Canucks will learn to spell proper english without all that british and french influence :D

Raymond Wand
07-18-2012, 06:33 PM
Canadian case law suggests law suits result due to inspectors not pointing out conditions which cause mould, or there was mould but they didn't explain the implications of same to client, and/or failed to have the client take further investigative measures.

Here is one most recent example and the resultant costly outcome for the inspector who I happen to know. This case was posted sometime ago on this site.

CanLII - 2011 ONSC 390 (CanLII) (http://canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=home+inspection+%28mould%29&language=en&searchTitle=Search+all+CanLII+Databases&path=/en/on/onsc/doc/2011/2011onsc390/2011onsc390.html)

Jerry Peck
07-18-2012, 07:11 PM
I've always said mold, mildew, fungi, whatever you want to call it, the problem is not the mildew, its the moisture causing it.

Then I explain that, heck, mold can be a helpful thing, take penicillin as one example, and cottage cheese, and the fuzzy stuff which forms on cheese that you simply cut off and the rest of the cheese is still good - "mold" - is not necessarily a "bad thing" and does not necessarily mean that you throw the entire cheese block out just because it has fuzzy stuff growing on the outside of it, no, you replace the fuzzy drywall and solve the moisture problem ... it is ... after all ... a *moisture problem*.

Raymond Wand
07-18-2012, 07:23 PM
In Danish Blue, for example, a form of penicillium bacteria—also used to make penicillin—is intentionally used to develop a harmless, edible and really delicious blue mould. The downy white rind we see on a cheese like brie is another form of penicillium—one that instead of being blue, develops an edible white mould on the surface of soft-ripened cheeses.

Say cheese! :D

Jerry Peck
07-18-2012, 07:35 PM
In Danish Blue, for example, a form of penicillium bacteria—also used to make penicillin—is intentionally used to develop a harmless, edible and really delicious blue mould. The downy white rind we see on a cheese like brie is another form of penicillium—one that instead of being blue, develops an edible white mould on the surface of soft-ripened cheeses.

Say cheese! :D

Raymond,

Yep.

Another thing I frequently added to my mildew and mold spiel is to ask if they knew that chlorine is a poison, when then replied that they knew it was, I asked why they drank it everyday? After a brief bewilderment period, if they did not get it themselves, I would run some water out of the faucet into a glass and say 'Here, have some chlorine.' It's not necessarily 'what', it is more often 'how much' that makes something good into something bad.

Jerry Peck
07-18-2012, 07:41 PM
I like visual things.

The other day I had a contractor laying out a sloping walkway and telling me that it was going to have natural stone on it and be slippery when wet, but his client did not want steps in the walkway.

I suggested that if he (the contractor) had some Viscreen plastic he could lay it down the walkway and run some water on it, then ask his client if he (the client) wanted to take a walk down the walkway. I then said, to make it even more visual, he could get a Slip 'N Slide and lay it down the walkway, that is going to tell his client what is going to happen ... slip ... and ... slide ... :)

The contractor called today and said they were going to put steps at the bottom of the walkway to reduce the slope of the walkway from the steps up to the pool deck. :cool:

Welmoed Sisson
07-19-2012, 06:52 AM
In Danish Blue, for example, a form of penicillium bacteria—also used to make penicillin—is intentionally used to develop a harmless, edible and really delicious blue mould. The downy white rind we see on a cheese like brie is another form of penicillium—one that instead of being blue, develops an edible white mould on the surface of soft-ripened cheeses.

Say cheese! :D

My kids were and still are big blue cheese fans. They were and are still also hardly ever sick. They attribute this to their almost-daily intake of natural antibiotics in the blue cheese!

Dale E. McNutt
07-25-2012, 11:20 AM
Interesting thread. Going back to the original topic, Mike Holmes.
You Tube has numerous videos of inspectors criticizing Holmes. The IR camera thing is very misunderstood. In fact, cameras in general are misunderstood. Inspectors that do not put photos in a report almost always state legal concerns. Looking closer at this, I find that the main reason is agent push-back. If you generate a report with photos clearly showing defects, it can be very compelling and very convincing. The "words" are the report but the photo combined with words is very powerful. Inspect a building with a high number of "reportable conditions" and you have the potential for a very incriminating and powerful document. Well placed, well taken, annotated photos with concise, direct wording leaves much less "wiggle room" in negotiations than a report that uses the word "serviceable" a couple hundred times. (not to mention the word "appears" or potential, etc.) Most agents pride themselves as negotiators. Deliver a document that leans more toward "finite" and it leaves less room for negotiation. Throw an IR camera in the mix and it ratchets up the criticism even higher. If you read enough reports from 'others", you start to see where much of reporting is at or is headed. Deliberately vague, ambiguous, lots of "further evaluation" wording. Well taken conventional and IR photos are a powerful tool for a buyer to be used against a seller. I bought a Raytek (now Fluke) Ti30 8 years ago. It sits behind the seat in pick-up and only gets brought out when I feel the situation warrants it.

There will always be the "where do you draw the line" arguments. If you are doing all that you can on behalf of the person paying your fee, within the boundaries of your pre-inspection agreement, you are going to piss off a lot (not all) of agents. These are the people that are always gravitating to the lowest common denominator. Kind of like fast food vs a sit-down meal. Don't be afraid of an IR camera. You will make a lot of friends and also piss off a lot of agents. (but isn't that where a lot of this criticism of Holmes and the IR camera comes from?)

Bob R
08-04-2012, 09:04 AM
I have considered many times in investing in a IR camera. There is no doubt the IR camera will provide much more information about a homes condition vs. a conventional visual inspection. This is one of those situations were more info may do more harm than good. NO HOME IS PERFECT. In 22 years I haven't seen one yet. The knowledge and technology we, as HI's have, give us the ability to make almost every home appear undesirable to purchase or BAC (Bulldoze after closing). That is a power we must use wisely. Buyers are inherently skittish to start with and any hint of a problem with there intended purchase will send them running with little cause, regardless of how well (or kind) the report is written.

I see the IR usage as more of a marketing and income generation tool.

Marketing: Gain advantage on the competition. Increase IR sales for the camera manufacturer.

Income Generation: Charge inspection clients several hundred dollars (possibly multiple times) just to show them that ever home they desire to buy appears as a money pit.

Marketing and Income Generation may be good business but, is it necessarily good service.

Jerry Peck
08-04-2012, 02:34 PM
I have considered many times in investing in a IR camera. There is no doubt the IR camera will provide much more information about a homes condition vs. a conventional visual inspection. This is one of those situations were more info may do more harm than good. NO HOME IS PERFECT. In 22 years I haven't seen one yet. The knowledge and technology we, as HI's have, give us the ability to make almost every home appear undesirable to purchase or BAC (Bulldoze after closing). That is a power we must use wisely. Buyers are inherently skittish to start with and any hint of a problem with there intended purchase will send them running with little cause, regardless of how well (or kind) the report is written.

I see the IR usage as more of a marketing and income generation tool.

Marketing: Gain advantage on the competition. Increase IR sales for the camera manufacturer.

Income Generation: Charge inspection clients several hundred dollars (possibly multiple times) just to show them that ever home they desire to buy appears as a money pit.

Marketing and Income Generation may be good business but, is it necessarily good service.

Bob,

Hope I don't sound to negative about what you wrote, but ... you sound like a "real estate agent friendly" inspector, not one looking out for the interests of you client.

Your clients interests is to find out and learn as much about the house as the inspector can. Helping keep it in perspective is one thing, 'not wanting to know' is totally out of the realm of what good inspectors do (should do).

Steven Turetsky
08-05-2012, 09:58 AM
I have considered many times in investing in a IR camera. There is no doubt the IR camera will provide much more information about a homes condition vs. a conventional visual inspection. This is one of those situations were more info may do more harm than good. NO HOME IS PERFECT. In 22 years I haven't seen one yet. The knowledge and technology we, as HI's have, give us the ability to make almost every home appear undesirable to purchase or BAC (Bulldoze after closing). That is a power we must use wisely. Buyers are inherently skittish to start with and any hint of a problem with there intended purchase will send them running with little cause, regardless of how well (or kind) the report is written.

I see the IR usage as more of a marketing and income generation tool.

Marketing: Gain advantage on the competition. Increase IR sales for the camera manufacturer.

Income Generation: Charge inspection clients several hundred dollars (possibly multiple times) just to show them that ever home they desire to buy appears as a money pit.

Marketing and Income Generation may be good business but, is it necessarily good service.

Bob,

I was not going to respond at first, but I must.

How dare you think that you have the authority to decide what a client should and should not know about the condition of a home they hired you to inspect?

What other tools do you not have for fear that something that a client needs to know might be revealed?

If this is truly you attitude, I can't help but to agree with Jerry.
If this is truly your attitude, shame on you.
Do you advertise on your website that you avoid certain testing because it may reveal something that may turn a buyer off?

wayne soper
08-05-2012, 07:27 PM
I bought an IR camera for one reason, I care about my clients. I don't advertize it, I don't wave it around and tell them how I am so much better than you.
I use it the same way you use a moisture meter.
But I can scan an entire room in 45 seconds.
I can't tell you how many roof and window leaks I have found in the few months that I have been using it, But it's more than 6 or 7, and that equates to more than 6 or 7 call backs I would have gotten If i didn't use it.
None of these leaks could have been detected without looking very closely at every inch of the room.
And, after detecting the areas, and retesting with moisture meter, and getting back up on the roof, I was able to locate the exact location of the leaks.
I can scan a finsihed basement and detect how well the wall system is working and if moisture is present.
Isn't that something you want to know, and want your clients to know.
Being in denial as many of you are, you are perpetuating the lawyer dilema that we are all hounded by.
The lawyers don't want you to use IR, they would rather sue you.
I spend as much time as it takes to do what i consider to be a proper inspection and report.
It gets longer every year, I'm not getting any younger and I learn more every year.
I do what it takes to protect my clients
That protects me.
Brokers, some like me, some don't, that's life
I don't care if you use IR, but I think you should care more about your clients and less about your wallet.
and I think MH should be sued for impersonating a home inspector
This tread is over dead by now and i can't believe you old farts are so stubborn.
10 years ago none of you would even take pictures
Your taking pictures now aren't you?
If your not taking over 100 pictiures per inspection.
and saving them all.
You are up for a lawsuit.
A camera is a camera IR or standard.
Use it or LOSE it.
The lawsuit I mean

Raymond Wand
08-06-2012, 04:25 AM
1. I see more iR cameras (used) for sale than I see inspectors admitting to using one.
2. One will be sued for what you don't tell a client, whether you have an iR or not.
3. There is no set requirement as to how many pictures one takes at an inspection. It could be zero it could be 200.
4. For years I did not routinely include photos, now I do. But I do not take anywhere close to 100 pictures.
5. Not taking pictures does not equate to lawsuit.
6. A picture is just as liable to assist you as it is to aid the plaintiff.
7. Inspectors who think their high tech equipment is going to save them should reexamine their liabilities.
8. I see more misinformation about the ability of iR than I do factual information. (i.e. iR can find mould). It would appear marketing the abilities of iR outweigh truthfulness.
9. My market does not support the iR need.
10. There is no set right or wrong way in the inspection profession. Everyone seems to think the right way is there way. Its no different than those who say inspectors should not advertise their prices.

Just my top ten. Your mileage and risk, and business decision may vary.

wayne soper
08-06-2012, 06:18 AM
Right Ray, To each his own!
My guess would be that just like the photos, years from now your post will read.
4. For years I did not routinely us IR, now I do. :D
All I was trying to say is that, It ,In my opinion, is a useful tool and it has helped me.
I am not trying to sell it to those who I am sure, know so much more than I do.
One question, full garage, can't see the walls, do you take pictures or just type in blocked from view?
I'm asking because I take pics and keep them, I don't always add to the report. But is something came up in the future, I would have proof that I could not see.
Am I being overcautious?

Raymond Wand
08-06-2012, 06:43 AM
Hi Wayne

You are doing what you know best and your competition and market will guide you in those decisions.

I have recently switched report systems and now include pictures after years of not providing them. I do keep all my photos even though a good many don't end up in the report.

Cheers,

Jerry Peck
08-06-2012, 06:14 PM
I have offered to scan each room with IR temperature sensor but no one wants to pay extra.

Start scanning at no additional cost, it does not take much time. Not only will YOU be surprised what you were missing, but YOUR CLIENTS will see what they would not otherwise have been shown.

It will not take long before you are getting referrals BECAUSE you use your IR camera. Then, after a little while, you slowly raise your prices.

You are now in demand and are worth more, and people will pay more, because they will be calling you because their friend/relative said to call you because you have that neat camera which allowed you to see ... you just need to be patient and build it slowly. You need to SHOW them what the camera can do, then they will SELL you using the camera for you.

Even in tough times, or maybe I should say: Especially in tough times.

Why do you think auto dealers have demonstrator cars they will let you drive? Because they know that if they can get you into a new car, their chance of making a sale just increased. I've even had dealers let me drive the car home and keep it a day or two. SHOW them what the camera can do, let them WANT IT. :)

John Kogel
08-12-2012, 05:51 PM
SHOW them what the camera can do, let them WANT IT. :)They want it alright, but they want it for free. That is the quandary we find ourselves in. To book the initial inspection, we can't include IR in the price. If we find a leak with IR, of course we inform the client and they've just gotten a free IR scan. Can't just slap them with a surtax, can we? Next client wants the low price with the bonus free IR scan. It's a crazy business.

Miss a wet spot? You had an IR camera in the house and you missed a wet spot? :confused:

Jerry Peck
08-12-2012, 06:06 PM
They want it alright, but they want it for free. That is the quandary we find ourselves in.

John,

It's no quandary if you do as I said - give it to them for "free" - SHOW them what you can do with it ... they PAY you by giving referrals where you give it to them for "free" too, and as those referrals add up and pick up, then THAT is where you make it back, and then you HAVE A REASON TO RAISE your prices slowly over your competitors ... your past clients are referring your current clients who are referring your future client, and all of them as saying 'YOU HAVE GOT TO CALL THIS GUY, I know he is a little higher, but DO NOT CALL ANYONE ELSE, you should have seen what he found that camera of his, he found (and all the home inspectors are using the infrared camera can quite adequately fill that list in).

Yes, you did their inspection and used the infrared for "free", but you get paid back double, and in the long run it gives you a reason to raise your prices over your competition which is not using infrared or is only using it when someone wants to "pay" for it as a separate charge.

Steven Turetsky
08-12-2012, 06:36 PM
Nothing is free, and I have no problem walking around with my cam inside the home. If I detect something, I report it. There is no additional charge for this service. I do the best I can do for my clients at all times. They pay me for this service. Please understand, I do not go after jobs by attempting to be the "cheapest" price in town, and everything is considered.

There are those that use their cams to perform a dog and pony show. I do not have the need or desire to do so.

I charge an additional fee for scoping the exterior. The reason being , as I explain to my clients is that when scanning the exterior for moisture intrusion (depending upon the time of the year), I either have to be at the home at about 5-6 am (which obviously is not a normal time to arrive), or remain until about 9-10 pm (which is also beyond the normal inspection time).

Ken Rowe
08-12-2012, 08:10 PM
They want it alright, but they want it for free. That is the quandary we find ourselves in. To book the initial inspection, we can't include IR in the price. If we find a leak with IR, of course we inform the client and they've just gotten a free IR scan. Can't just slap them with a surtax, can we? Next client wants the low price with the bonus free IR scan. It's a crazy business.

Miss a wet spot? You had an IR camera in the house and you missed a wet spot? :confused:

Raise your base price and include the thermal. Then when the price shopper calls you have something to tell them when they ask why you're so much higher priced than the next inspector.

John Kogel
08-12-2012, 08:26 PM
There is no new info here, just rehashing an old subject. The time is not right for higher inspection prices in my area - too many inspectors and too few sales.

Jerry Peck
08-12-2012, 08:37 PM
There is no new info here, just rehashing an old subject. The time is not right for higher inspection prices in my area - too many inspectors and too few sales.

Which means that now is the right time to include using your infrared camera.

John, sounds to me like you are missing what the old info is stating, and that in rehashing it here you are still missing it.

What did you not understand in my post about using your infrared camera for free NOW and ... reaping the referrals over the NEAR future and then ... being able to raise your prices IN the future?

Especially in times like this, unless you are so friggin' busy you don't have time for more business ... in which case I could somewhat understand NOT WANTING MORE REFERRALS ... unless you are that busy, the ADDITIONAL REFERRALS are your payback.

Ken Rowe
08-12-2012, 08:41 PM
There is no new info here, just rehashing an old subject. The time is not right for higher inspection prices in my area - too many inspectors and too few sales.

I've said it before, if you want to increase your number of inspections and increase your inspection fees make yourself stand out from your competition. Thermal is one way to do it.

We've come a long way from the paper check list report. Thermal is one of the next big steps. If you're not willing to invest in your business, you may as well find another line of work because if you haven't noticed, there are a ton of new inspection companies opening there doors and you can bet their using the latest technology.

Heck, I've already spoken with the president of a company who does onsite medical x-rays about the potential of using it for home inspections. Gotta stay ahead of the competition.

Raymond Wand
08-13-2012, 04:00 AM
All I see and hear is a lot a talk, but no stats. Its all hear say, anecdotal evidence.

Yup new competition opening their doors and flooding the saturated home inspection market and many if they did invest in an iR are still under cutting established inspectors whether or not they have iR service.

How is it that many of us senior inspectors have been able to run our businesses without iR all this time and in my case still do not see a market for it. The demand is just not here at least in my area.

Anyone purchasing a iR camera on hype and then hoping to increase business had better do their research and have a marketing/business plan. I suspect many do not.

Eric Barker
08-13-2012, 06:01 AM
I'm going to side with Raymond on this one. I don't mind investing in equipment but and when I do I buy top drawer stuff. But no matter how I work the numbers, an IR camera does not fall into the game plan nor do I see where I can truly benefit from it. The real problem I have with the technology is that it's my belief that they cameras have been over-hyped. That's not to say that if someday an free camera showed up on my door step I wouldn't toss it in the truck next to the borescope I never use.

Markus Keller
08-13-2012, 07:31 AM
I keep thinking about IR and then wake up. I'm not spending $3-$10K on a piece of equipment I can't get money back from. The idea that the return comes from increased referrals is nonsense. Clients will refer you because they want to refer you, not because you had an IR. I get so few questions from clients about IR it isn't worth it at this point. It's August now, I've had maybe 2-3 people ask about it this year. When they ask its usually hype based and I've still booked the inspection.
There are a fair amount of HI's around here throwing in IR for free on normal HI. What a stupid waste. I'm not interested in keeping up with that type of competition. You know who needs IR for standard HI work, guys who don't know buildings.
I will probably buy one at some point but who knows when. I grew up on jobsites, I know where the leaks are in buildings. All the camera would do is verify what I probably already know.
Besides, if it's a water intrusion job I just give them MT's number.:)

Dan Harris
08-13-2012, 08:08 AM
I keep thinking about IR and then wake up. I'm not spending $3-$10K on a piece of equipment I can't get money back from. The idea that the return comes from increased referrals is nonsense. Clients will refer you because they want to refer you, not because you had an IR.

Besides, if it's a water intrusion job I just give them MT's number.:)

It may be different in some areas of the counrty.
I found what Jerry stated is very true in AZ . Here it's apx . 80% locating missing insulation, and 20% water leaks. When I got one 7or 8 years ago I started advertizng using the IR camera on new homes. My orders went up 2-3 per week, when I asked why they hired me almost every customer stated it was due to the IR.

Fast forward to today.. The majorty of those customers, including a couple RE agents, are now my sales people that are now reusing or refering me.

I had an out of town customer call me due to my postings on this site last week. The 1st thing he asked me when I called him to review my findings , is if I used the camera , and if I found anything with it.

Ken Rowe
08-13-2012, 01:03 PM
You know, I had long response typed out replying to Raymond, Eric and Markus giving my personal experience and stats showing how my thermal imaging camera has more than paid for itself and increased my business. Then figured, it's not worth it. If they're happy getting by with just the basics, so be it.

I am a little offended by the comment:


You know who needs IR for standard HI work, guys who don't know buildings. I guess I didn't realize Markus was born with x-ray vision and could see missing insulation in the walls and exactly where those in floor heating lines are run.

There are people who get it, and those who don't. They obviously don't.

Rick Cantrell
08-13-2012, 01:13 PM
I am a little offended by the comment:
"You know who needs IR for standard HI work, guys who don't know buildings."
I guess I didn't realize Markus was born with x-ray vision and could see missing insulation in the walls and exactly where those in floor heating lines are run.
Most do not consider looking for missing insulation, or locating in floor heating lines as a part of "standard inspection".

Hank Spinnler
08-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Obviously, he's had some success so he's doing something right. At the same time, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say anything about the show other than a home inspector.


Booked another one today thanks to Mike Holmes helping to tip the scales in my direction. Hear it every week. "Well...I've been watching that Holmes on HGTV"

Markus Keller
08-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Missing insulation - You don't need an IR camera - know your buildings.
Vintage buildings don't have it; something from the 70's or 80's is either defective, inadequate or not even there; NC will be poorly installed and under R value. Unless the Developer/Builder provides certification it is installed properly everywhere, IT ISN'T. Everyone of those moron contractors is the same. You don't need an IR camera to figure that out.
Radiant lines - If you are scoping out radiant lines and aren't charging extra for it, sorry to hear it. If a radiant line is leaking in a ceiling, some can see it just fine without a camera.
You want an IR camera for special services that pay. Sounds good. If you are throwing in the use of a multi-thousand dollar camera for free that's just plain stupid.
Kind of like the idiots I know (who won't be happy when they read this, still love you guys but you screwed the pouch on that one) who did a ~$2mil, 5000 sqft NC with multiple high end systems and glass walls for $525.
Know your buildings, know what you are getting into and charge accordingly.

Dan Harris
08-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Booked another one today thanks to Mike Holmes helping to tip the scales in my direction. Hear it every week. "Well...I've been watching that Holmes on HGTV"

Same here.. This AM a caller asked me for a price, I told her, she then stated OK thanks and was ready to hang up, at that point I stated the inspection included an IR inspection. Next question was when could I do it.
Another inspection scheduled, $400.00 Sat AM, 1st opening I had, now I'm booked for the week.. Lifes good even if it's 115 degrees today :)

Hank Spinnler
08-13-2012, 01:50 PM
Good deal Dan. Were those "dust storms" occurring out in your area?

Dan Harris
08-13-2012, 02:01 PM
Good deal Dan. Were those "dust storms" occurring out in your area?

Yea just another day in the desert, and another day the pool got trashed. The news makes them look like some big deal.. It's been a few years since we had so many in one summer, I'll take a few 15 to 20 minute dust storms over several days of blizzerds and 20 below days.

Ken Rowe
08-13-2012, 02:16 PM
Most do not consider looking for missing insulation, or locating in floor heating lines as a part of "standard inspection". As I said, if they're happy doing just the basics, so be it. Me? I want to do the best job I can for my clients and have a full schedule.



Curious does your Insurance Company charge you more for IR?
Other thing when you locate the problems with IR, How do you point out what you should not have seen to the Home Owner or RA?
When you spoke of X-ray vision it just made me think. WHAT:eek: No, I have insurance through Minnesota Joint Underwriters Association. No extra charge for radon, thermal, or anything else I do as a home inspector. I document the issues in my report to my clients, the buyers. I generally don't deal with the home owners or agents. If I did, I'd just tell them what I saw.


Missing insulation - You don't need an IR camera - know your buildings.
Vintage buildings don't have it; something from the 70's or 80's is either defective, inadequate or not even there; NC will be poorly installed and under R value. Unless the Developer/Builder provides certification it is installed properly everywhere, IT ISN'T. Everyone of those moron contractors is the same. You don't need an IR camera to figure that out.

Know your buildings, know what you are getting into and charge accordingly.

Really? Vintage buildings don't have insulation? My house was built in 1948 and I have 18 inches of cellulose in the attic and 3 1/2 in the walls. I know, I put it there. I see you didn't mention new construction or repair work where they forgot to put insulation in the walls, which you would never find just because you "know your buildings".


Radiant lines - If you are scoping out radiant lines and aren't charging extra for it, sorry to hear it. If a radiant line is leaking in a ceiling, some can see it just fine without a camera.
You want an IR camera for special services that pay. Sounds good. If you are throwing in the use of a multi-thousand dollar camera for free that's just plain stupid.

Stupid? Really, I raised my inspection fee across the board when I started including thermal. My number of inspections have increase over 20% since including thermal and raising my rates. As I said, some people just don't get it.

Jerry Peck
08-13-2012, 04:38 PM
You know who needs IR for standard HI work, guys who don't know buildings.)

Markus,

Guess I don't know nuttin' about dem der things ya'll call buildin's ... :p :D

Rick Cantrell
08-13-2012, 04:59 PM
Markus,

Guess I don't know nuttin' about dem der things ya'll call buildin's ... :p :D

Jerry
I wouldn't think you ( or Ken) would NEED an IR camera for what MOST people consider a STANDARD INSPECTION.

Ken Rowe
08-13-2012, 07:48 PM
Jerry
I wouldn't think you ( or Ken) would NEED an IR camera for what MOST people consider a STANDARD INSPECTION.

I don't need one to do a standard inspection, but, like codes, STANDARDS are the minimum requirements. I go above and beyond the minimum requirements and get paid more to do it. Funny how some inspectors want to see work done above minimum requirements, but only perform the minimum requirements for an inspection.

Thermal isn't the do all, be all but it is widely recognized by the general public (thanks to Holmes) and it is something that has increased my income. If other inspectors don't believe me or don't want to take advantage of Mike Holmes telling his viewers (potential clients) to hire an inspector with a thermal camera I guess that's their choice. In the mean time I'll take those paying customers.

Rick Cantrell
08-13-2012, 08:48 PM
I don't need one to do a standard inspection, but, like codes, STANDARDS are the minimum requirements. I go above and beyond the minimum requirements and get paid more to do it.

Good, you should charge more.

When it comes to testing garage door openers I trust you also go above minimum standards and test using a 2x4.
How about flood testing a shower pan.

Ken Rowe
08-13-2012, 09:10 PM
Good, you should charge more.

When it comes to testing garage door openers I trust you also go above minimum standards and test using a 2x4.
How about flood testing a shower pan.

I'm pretty sure my inspection methods aren't the subject here. If an inspector chooses not to use a thermal camera, that's their choice. But, don't say they're a waste of money or the inspectors using them don't know houses because there are several of us on here who know better.

My question is, who knows better, an inspector who's never owned, operated, or marketed a thermal camera in their inspection business, or the inspector who has? If you've never done it, you have no real idea.

Similar to going from paper check list reports to a computer generated report. They're both tools. The computer report is a tool to make the inspection report easier to read and gives you the ability to add pictures. The thermal camera gives you the tool to take a picture of missing insulation or hidden leaks, in order to pass this information on to the clients. Can you find missing insulation or hidden leaks without a thermal camera? Maybe. Good luck taking a picture of it and showing it to your clients.

Anyhow, I'm done with this thread. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Rick Cantrell
08-14-2012, 10:29 AM
If an inspector chooses not to use a thermal camera, that's their choice. But, don't say they're a waste of money or the inspectors using them don't know houses because there are several of us on here who know better.

I never said, thought or implied anything like that




As I said, if they're happy doing just the basics, so be it. Me? I want to do the best job I can for my clients and have a full schedule.
So anyone not using IR is "doing just the basics", and you do "the best job I can". But even your "best job" does not include testing the shower pan or garage door reversal.

You do have an XRF machine to test for lead paint, don't you?
They cost a little more than the IR, but whats money when you only "do the best job" you can for your customers.

All I'm pointing out is that you label people as minimalist and as someone that performs only a basic inspection if they do not use IR. While at the same time you do not offer your customers testing a garage door or shower pan.

So before you tell someone they do basic inspections, you might consider some of the things that would provide a better inspection for your customers.

Eric Barker
08-14-2012, 03:42 PM
You know, I had long response typed out replying to Raymond, Eric and Markus giving my personal experience and stats showing how my thermal imaging camera has more than paid for itself and increased my business. Then figured, it's not worth it.

Hi Ken, I hope I didn't pull your chain - didn't intend on that. Markus and I work in the same region and our experiences are the same. Perhaps if we were in another part of the country we'd find things to be quite different. It's somewhat like inspecting an occupied home without a client or agent - it's just not accepted here like it is in some other areas. It's why it can be so interesting to chat with inspectors across the country.

Ken Rowe
08-14-2012, 04:30 PM
So anyone not using IR is "doing just the basics", and you do "the best job I can". But even your "best job" does not include testing the shower pan or garage door reversal.

You do have an XRF machine to test for lead paint, don't you?
They cost a little more than the IR, but whats money when you only "do the best job" you can for your customers.



Why are you even bringing these up? They have nothing to do with thermal imaging. Yes, I actually have a piece of 2x4 to test garage door openers. No I do not flood shower pans. That test is designed to be done during installation, not after the tile is in place and may cause damage to the home. XRF machines are useless to me. I'm not a licensed lead tester (Minnesota requires licensing). Would you like to know what color underwear I'm wearing?

Rick Cantrell
08-14-2012, 04:46 PM
Why are you even bringing these up?



I'm pointing out that you label people as minimalist and as someone that performs only a basic inspection if they do not use IR.
While at the same time you do not offer your customers testing a garage door or shower pan.
So before you tell someone they do basic inspections, you might consider some of the things that would provide a better inspection for your customers.

Ken Rowe
08-14-2012, 05:26 PM
Jerry
I wouldn't think you ( or Ken) would NEED an IR camera for what MOST people consider a STANDARD INSPECTION.


I'm pointing out that you label people as minimalist and as someone that performs only a basic inspection if they do not use IR.

STANDARD INSPECTION would be an inspection to basic State or Association STANDARDS, correct? If you notice, I didn't bring up STANDARD inspections, you did. If you feel you're a minimalist, there is nothing I can do about that. Note, I'm not the one who brought up the term MINIMALIST either.

What I am saying is that Thermal Imaging is being promoted on television by Holmes. I could care less if he's qualified to use it, or a licensed inspector. I purchased a thermal camera and it has increased my business and income. You, and others are stating that it does nothing to increase business nor does it assist in performing home inspections. Yet, you've had no experience with using thermal in an inspection business. Therefore, really have no idea what you're talking about.

There are several people posting in this thread how thermal has increased their business. There are several others, who have never used thermal in inspections, who are against it. However, I haven't seen any post by any inspector saying they've used thermal imaging on an inspection and lost money.

Rick Cantrell
08-14-2012, 05:57 PM
If you notice, I didn't bring up STANDARD inspections, you did.

Actually I didn't bring it up, although I did repeat it, but even that was a quote from another post.




You, and others are stating that it does nothing to increase business nor does it assist in performing home inspections.

You need to read what is written, I never said anything like that.



Yet, you've had no experience with using thermal in an inspection business. Therefore, really have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, I have not said anything about this

All these things you keep saying I said, I haven't said.
Read what I've said, not what you think I said.

Ken Rowe
08-14-2012, 08:28 PM
You need to read what is written, I never said anything like that.



Again, I have not said anything about this

All these things you keep saying I said, I haven't said.
Read what I've said, not what you think I said.

Then what is the point of your argument. This thread is a discussion about thermal cameras and their use in home inspections...not the standards of home inspections. Everyone on here already knows thermal imaging is beyond the scope of the standard home inspection.

Jerry Peck
08-14-2012, 08:48 PM
Everyone on here already knows thermal imaging is beyond the scope of the standard home inspection.

Not necessarily. Depends on how one defines what a "STANDARD INSPECTION" is.


Jerry
I wouldn't think you ( or Ken) would NEED an IR camera for what MOST people consider a STANDARD INSPECTION.

Rick,

Our ... at least my ... "STANDARD INSPECTION" *included* the use of my infrared camera.

Thus, no, I could not do *my* standard inspection without using my infrared camera.

And, no, I rarely used it for moisture (I've said this many times before too).

I would, and did, find evidence of moisture with my infrared camera, but that was an incidental use of it. My application of it was for structural, insulation, and other items. Finding moisture was simply a side benefit. Such as the time I scanned through a master bedroom, then did other rooms, then could not recall if I had scanned the master bedroom so I scanned it again, and, lo and behold, there was moisture all around the corner of a window, then it hit me - it had just rained, quite a heavy rain, although also quite brief, and there it was ... that window had leaked, and leaked BIG TIME in that brief rain.

Many areas one would first presume was moisture on the infrared were actually that way from cool air leaking in or out where it should not have been. One must be careful how they use an infrared camera - they are quite easy to mis-use and mis-diagnose what is being shown.

However, back to the point of this post (then you two can continue your debate ;) ): (what was the point ... ??? ... :) ... Oh, yeah ... ) "Depends on how one defines what a "STANDARD INSPECTION" is."

Ken Rowe
08-14-2012, 08:57 PM
Jerry, I gave a ad lib definition of STANDARD inspection on post #112 so as to avoid confusion.


STANDARD INSPECTION would be an inspection to basic State or Association STANDARDS

Ken Rowe
08-14-2012, 09:17 PM
As I said, if they're happy doing just the basics, so be it. Me? I want to do the best job I can for my clients and have a full schedule.



I'm pointing out that you label people as minimalist and as someone that performs only a basic inspection if they do not use IR.


You're pointing out how I labelled people as minimalist if they don't use IR? This is the only post where I've used the word minimalist. Seems you've done the labeling here.

As I said, if they're happy doing just the basics (standard inspection) that's fine. I use thermal and it brings me clients...by the way, I also do CO testing inside the furnace flue, run appliances, bore scope ducts, check the temp difference of A/C systems, computer generated reports with digital pictures with the report completed onsite and quite a few other things that are beyond the scope of STANDARD inspections...all for my standard fee (which is higher than most in my area).

Again, to get my point across...if you or anyone else is happy doing basic inspections (ones that meet the minimum State or association requirements) that's fine. But, because I go beyond those requirements I have a pretty full schedule and get paid more than other local inspectors to do them. Thermal is only one thing that will set you apart from other inspectors.

Mark Fisher
08-15-2012, 07:54 AM
There are several people posting in this thread how thermal has increased their business. There are several others, who have never used thermal in inspections, who are against it. However, I haven't seen any post by any inspector saying they've used thermal imaging on an inspection and lost money.

This is close to the pertinent question on the need for/use of an IR camera: Does anyone who has one regret getting it?

For me, it was a major capital investment that I was able to purchase outright, so it is paid for. Have I made my money back on it? No, not yet.
Do I regret spending the money on it? Absolutely not!
Do I NEED one to do a home inspection? No.
Do I do a better home inspection with one? Absolutely!
Has it helped land inspections? Yes.

Jerry Peck
08-15-2012, 04:23 PM
Jerry, I gave a ad lib definition of STANDARD inspection on post #112 so as to avoid confusion.

I saw that, but that would not have been representative of my standard inspection.

I doubt that it would really be representative of most home inspectors standard inspection. Newbies, possibly yes, but then they learn and grow above the minimum standard ... in fact that - "minimum" - would be representative of an SoP standard inspection ... it would be better described as a "minimum inspection" than as a 'standard inspection', also more truthful as the SoP states that it is a minimum level.

Ken Rowe
08-15-2012, 09:27 PM
I saw that, but that would not have been representative of my standard inspection.

I doubt that it would really be representative of most home inspectors standard inspection. Newbies, possibly yes, but then they learn and grow above the minimum standard ... in fact that - "minimum" - would be representative of an SoP standard inspection ... it would be better described as a "minimum inspection" than as a 'standard inspection', also more truthful as the SoP states that it is a minimum level.

I was going with the literal meaning. SOP Standards of Practice = Standard Inspection. When you throw the words STANDARD INSPECTION out to a group of home inspectors it should be obvious that we're not talking about an individual's standards since nobody else has a clue what that individual's standards are.

Jerry Peck
08-16-2012, 02:44 PM
... since nobody else has a clue what that individual's standards are.

Do some even know what SoPs are that you are mentioning?

I know that some do, but I withhold opinion on some others awaiting verification of that. ;)

Jack Wingo
09-01-2012, 03:27 PM
It wasn't that many years ago there was the same negativity regarding the use of a digital camera. Just purchased an Ideal camera thru Tool Experts, great price with many features, consider it another way to provide a better inspection, same as attending inspection seminars.

JB Thompson
09-01-2012, 06:36 PM
Same here.. This AM a caller asked me for a price, I told her, she then stated OK thanks and was ready to hang up, at that point I stated the inspection included an IR inspection. Next question was when could I do it.
Another inspection scheduled, $400.00 Sat AM, 1st opening I had, now I'm booked for the week.. Lifes good even if it's 115 degrees today :)

I'm not saying this to be a smart-aleck, but if you're doing an inspection for $400 and throwing in IR......

That's roughly what I charge on a small home without IR. So it would take me 160 inspections to buy the $4000 Flir E40 they're selling at Professional Equipment.

I say this b/c if I were to buy one, it would have to pay for itself by being an extra service. I would reserve the right to use it if I wanted to, but for those who requested it or if I upsold, it would have to come at a price.

I think I've only had one person ever ask me if I did thermal imaging.

Jerry Peck
09-01-2012, 06:50 PM
I think I've only had one person ever ask me if I did thermal imaging.

You could change that in a heartbeat if you actually had an infrared camera and pulled it one day on one inspection 'just to try it'. :)

Dan Harris
09-01-2012, 08:25 PM
I'm not saying this to be a smart-aleck, but if you're doing an inspection for $400 and throwing in IR......

That's roughly what I charge on a small home without IR. So it would take me 160 inspections to buy the $4000 Flir E40 they're selling at Professional Equipment.

I say this b/c if I were to buy one, it would have to pay for itself by being an extra service. I would reserve the right to use it if I wanted to, but for those who requested it or if I upsold, it would have to come at a price.

I think I've only had one person ever ask me if I did thermal imaging.

I'm not sure how your figuring your math to come up with needing 160 inspections?

The way I look at is, if I make a $4000 or any X amount of investment in my business , how long will it take to see a return.
If I can get 3-4 additional inspections a month from my investment that's apx $1000 a month additional gross income. With a $4000 investment I get my money/ investment back in apx 4 months. There are few other investments that I can make [ with maybe the exception of kissing up to realtors ] that I can see an honest return,
I bought my 1st camera 7or 8 years ago, to date I've spent apx $200 on it.

As far as buying a new one, in todays market I see a lot of slightly used cameras being offerered for 1/2 price.

Like Jerry mentioned bring one out at an inspection and the word will spread.

Or my experience, if I'm trying to close a phone price shopper,
I'm not one to tell someone how much greater I am than the other guy, or bad mouth the other guy to get a sale. I let them know I have one, and tell them what I can find with an IR [ assuming they call when you have the right conditions for the camera to be effective]

JB Thompson
09-01-2012, 08:48 PM
I'm not sure how your figuring your math to come up with needing 160 inspections?

The way I look at is, if I make a $4000 or any X amount of investment in my business , how long will it take to see a return.
If I can get 3-4 additional inspections a month from my investment that's apx $1000 a month additional gross income. With a $4000 investment I get my money/ investment back in apx 4 months. There are few other investments that I can make [ with maybe the exception of kissing up to realtors ] that I can see an honest return,
I bought my 1st camera 7or 8 years ago, to date I've spent apx $200 on it.

As far as buying a new one, in todays market I see a lot of slightly used cameras being offerered for 1/2 price.

Like Jerry mentioned bring one out at an inspection and the word will spread.

Or my experience, if I'm trying to close a phone price shopper,
I'm not one to tell someone how much greater I am than the other guy, or bad mouth the other guy to get a sale. I let them know I have one, and tell them what I can find with an IR [ assuming they call when you have the right conditions for the camera to be effective]

If I charge $375 for the same home inspection that you charge $400 for and I don't use IR and you do, then there is a $25 difference assuming all other things were equal (difficult to do, but...)

Obviously that is the most basic inspection b/c other larger inspections may increase the price of the service with and without the unit, but I'm figuring it would take me 160 inspections to break even based on your number.

For my way of thinking, closing the sale with an IR device or not, is less tangible, b/c I don't have one - people don't ask me for one and I stay busy. Could I do more? Sure. Would the camera help that? Maybe, but hard to say. I could justify it as a tool "for me" to use on the inspection just as I do a screwdriver and write off the expense....Or I could upsell the service and advertise that I perform IR inspections and charge accordingly.

Maybe it's my old way of thinking or my market, but for me it's too great of an expense for what I perceive to be a return.

Would I like to have one and would I use? Sure. I'd like a Lamborghini too. :D

Ken Rowe
09-01-2012, 09:40 PM
Obviously that is the most basic inspection b/c other larger inspections may increase the price of the service with and without the unit, but I'm figuring it would take me 160 inspections to break even based on your number.



I don't know what kind of inspection numbers you do, but 160 would be about 6 months for me. So the investment takes 6 months to pay off, everything after that is additional income.

If you used the short end of Dan's years of service for his IR (7 years) and multiply that by the number of inspections I do (320 per year) then multiply that figure by $25 that comes to $52,000 of additional income. (remember to subtract the first 6 months until it's paid for). Wait, I forgot to subtract the $200 in expenses Dan posted. So $51,800 in additional income.

That's a heck of a down payment on a Lamborghini.

John Ellis
11-10-2012, 07:11 PM
I don't currently own an IR camera but obtaining one this year with at least lvl 1 training is on my list. I disagree with Mike about tossing the inspector if he doesn't have one especially if this were taken to mean a $20k minimum camera. I want to use thermal in all of my inspections for my use to possibly make more income and to simply provide my customer with the best inspection that I can offer. Also, I will take EIFS training this year and the camera could help quit a bit. Realistically I don't expect to be able to "see" mold but rather to aid me in making more sound judgement calls on issues that I notice. I like Mike's show and at least they did not introduce Mike as a home inspector.

Dan Harris
11-10-2012, 08:14 PM
Mr. Holmes just did an inspection here in SSM On. The seller is furious as he already went down $60,000 to sell his home and the Inspector found even more things with IR. Thing is who gets the most benefit for this as the Clients walked away from the home and Mike Holmes Group pockets about $400.00, Real Estate Agent does not get the sale and the Home Owner can't sell his home.
There is such a thing as having too much detail because no house would be sold.:eek:

HUHHH.. Who do you work for when you do an inspection?

Dan Harris
11-10-2012, 08:48 PM
I do not agree with Holmes Group and I do not agree with using IR not because I don't think it is good tool but because using it as a means to show leakage, structure or electrical problems and not explaining how easy some things are to repair many can get the wrong idea.
.

Considering your one of them super certified master inspectors I would think you are aware that existing leakage, structural or electrical problems are sure to show up sooner or later.
Why not disclose it to the buyer and let them decide if they want to accept the existing things while they own the home, and or when it's disclosed by Holmes or another inspector when they sell?

I'm starting to think Ca. really needs some type of licensing to protect the clinet from inspectors that are worried about someone other than their clinets

Ken Rowe
11-10-2012, 10:59 PM
Mr. Holmes Group just did an inspection here in SSM On. The seller is furious as he already went down $60,000 to sell his home and the Inspector found even more things with IR. It shouldn't make any difference to the inspector how much the seller went down in price or even what the selling price is. It's none of our business. Good for the inspector and client that more things were discovered.



Thing is who gets the most benefit for this as the Clients walked away from the home and Mike Holmes Group pockets about $400.00, Real Estate Agent does not get the sale and the Home Owner can't sell his home.
Ummm...the clients who hired the inspector got the most benefits. They didn't get stuck with a house with hidden defects. So the inspection company charged $400 for the inspection. Do you really think the hidden defect would cost less than that to fix? Hidden means you have to tear things apart to fix them. That's cheap. It's putting it back together that gets expensive.



There is such a thing as having too much detail because no house would be sold.:eek: There is no such thing as "too much detail" when it comes to a home inspection.

No offense, but it really sounds like you wanted the clients to buy the house with the hidden defects so the seller and agent got paid.

Steven Turetsky
11-11-2012, 07:21 AM
I can't believe someone would actually state that they don't use a icam because they may see something they might have otherwise missed.

Dan Harris
11-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Steven with all due respect as I said there would be no house to sell if I did a Holmes Inspection. At $1000.00 no one would call a independent inspector either. I wish that it was the norm but you are not here to see what happens in the Sault or what mess Mr. Holmes has helped to create.
Even with the best equipment and three days you still can't give someone a house with no problems. Like I said to others I can go way passed a number of Inspectors here if my Client wants me to. We generally only get at the most half a day for a house and even at 3 hours the Real Estate Agent is asking how much longer.

Interesting.. .. So these three quotes from your website only apply if the client pays you enough

"My first priority is you!"

" Your home is probably the greatest purchase you will ever make. As an InterNACHI- Certified Master Inspector let me protect your investment and protect your family by working for you. I’m proud to bring my years of experience and expertise to each inspection I perform, and I will do my best to provide you with the service you deserve.'

"One thing for sure is that a home inspection requires work, a lot of work. Ultimately a thorough inspection depends heavily on the individual inspector’s own effort. If you honor me by permitting me to inspect your new home, I guarantee that I will give you my very best effort. This I promise you.

Raymond Wand
11-11-2012, 03:08 PM
It would be interesting to find out how many clients who retain the Holmes Inspection request an iR scan?

Recently on Mikes Live Chat I asked Mike what associations he belonged to and what certifications he had to use the iR camera he likes to flaunt.

No reply. Hmmm.. so much for doing it right!

Mike Holmes Inspections | Pre-Purchase Inspection (http://mikeholmesinspections.com/services/pre-purchase-inspection)

Steven Turetsky
11-11-2012, 04:28 PM
What is the difference between a Mike Holmes Inspection and any other inspection? Other than the IR, what does a Mike Holmes inspection include that others' (yours) do not?

I have never seen one of his or your reports. Have you?

If the only diff is the IR... then perhaps he is correct and you need one. He is raising the bar... are you out?

Do you think that every Mike Holmes inspection includes opening walls (etc) as depicted in his show? Remember, his show is scripted and they are going to make sure it is very dramatic. They are not going to air a show about a boring inspection.

As far as his requirements to work for him; good for him. You seem to complain that he forces you to meet ASHI Standards. That is a "glass half full" attitude. Why don't you turn it around and strive to surpass ASHI Standards.

Mitchell Captain
11-11-2012, 05:00 PM
and even at 3 hours the Real Estate Agent is asking how much longer.

If a realtor does not ask me how much longer, I have not done my job. And we all should have a IR camera attend classes to use the camera and be able to comunicate to our client what it is telling us.

We should takes as much time as needed to inspect a home for a client. If not you are doing a diservice to your client (regardless of price charged) .. What you find in a home may or may not be important to your client but your client needs to know all your finding so they can make a good decision.

BTW this is a*public forum and I hope none of your potential clients will see your posts.

Mitchell Captain
Allspec Professional Property Inspections

Steven Turetsky
11-11-2012, 05:11 PM
I would also edit (proof read) anything that had my brand on it. But are they editing it (changing content) or proof reading it (correcting splelling, grammar, missed items, etc.?).

Steven Turetsky
11-11-2012, 05:13 PM
For the last time guys it is a h e ll of allot different than any area in America. If I was in America I would do what the Americans do. You would not get through one week here doing the IR thing in SSM On. I have even asked my Clients what type of Inspection they want and it is always the minimum standards so don't go getting all bent out of shape about how I do Inspections. Like I said the Clients are my main concern but you can't force them to pull more money out of there pockets not here anyways. Many can't even afford a Home and when they find out the work needed they walk.
I also have taken all the training for IR and am just waiting for it to become the norm.

Out of curiosity, how much do you charge for an average 2,000 sq ft home? Why wait for IR to "become the norm" Why not do it now, and try to establish yourself to be as good, if not better than your competition. Instead of the other way around.

Dan Harris
11-11-2012, 06:15 PM
For the last time guys it is a h e ll of allot different than any area in America. If I was in America I would do what the Americans do. You would not get through one week here doing the IR thing in SSM On. I have even asked my Clients what type of Inspection they want and it is always the minimum standards so don't go getting all bent out of shape about how I do Inspections. Like I said the Clients are my main concern but you can't force them to pull more money out of there pockets not here anyways. Many can't even afford a Home and when they find out the work needed they walk.
I also have taken all the training for IR and am just waiting for it to become the norm.

I recall hearing the same arguments against IR in the states a few years ago.
Considering your complaining about what M Holmes is doing, from here in America :) it appears to look like you may need to start doing what he's doing or your time is numbered in this profession.

Considering you claim to be superior to other inspectors as a nicki master certified inspector and you claim Holmes can get $1000.00 per inspection why can't you?

Raymond Wand
11-12-2012, 05:23 AM
I have been in business since 1991, I have yet to see the great demand in my area for iR.

The market is spotty for such services.

Almost everyday I am reading that someone has their iR for sale, for a myriad of reasons.

People are very cost conscience. What makes some of you think that a client who is already cash strap wants to spend an extra $100 for an iR scan.
Heck I get people calling me telling me they can get an inspection for $20-30 cheaper from my competitor who is also not offering iR service.

As for Mike Holmes, he is subcontracting out inspections and taking half the fee, I suspect many purchasers think Mike actually comes out and does the inspection.

And as far as I am concerned my inspections are just as good or better than Holmes and I charge more than my competitors. So in reality I am better off being independent.

Patricia Kaiser
12-31-2012, 12:49 PM
Canadian case law suggests law suits result due to inspectors not pointing out conditions which cause mould, or there was mould but they didn't explain the implications of same to client, and/or failed to have the client take further investigative measures.

Here is one most recent example and the resultant costly outcome for the inspector who I happen to know. This case was posted sometime ago on this site.

CanLII - 2011 ONSC 390 (CanLII) (http://canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=home+inspection+%28mould%29&language=en&searchTitle=Search+all+CanLII+Databases&path=/en/on/onsc/doc/2011/2011onsc390/2011onsc390.html)

As a homeowner in the States, with interest in buying a new home, I found this Canadian example of liability quite illuminating. I wonder if the US law is much different from the Canadian? Would the suit have gone the same way if it was filed, say, in Pennsylvania?

Nathan Thornberry
12-31-2012, 02:03 PM
I'm not sure it necessarily would go differently after reading it. We know the inspector was found to have 50% of the liability...but what was that number? When we say something cost the home inspector dearly, are we talking about $10,000? $100,000?

It appears to be from January 2011 and no damages noted thus far if I'm reading correctly.

Dan Harris
12-31-2012, 02:14 PM
I have received more than enough controversy over this so after viewing the comment I made please let me know what you think!
Certification right for inspectors: college | Local | News | Sault Star (http://www.saultstar.com/2012/08/17/certification-right-for-inspectors-college)


OHHH Please.. If this quote { 'Yes I would Like to add the Comment that I am a InterNachi Inspector that has also applied and been granted to be a Certified Master Inspector} from your reply on the link is what you believe to be accountable certificiations, we all know what the rest of the professional inspectors believe about your super master inspector certification, and your instant on-line quiz certificiation :D

Go... Mr Mike Holmes and do something to make inspectors accountable for their home inspector certificiations, or lack of them :)

Raymond Wand
12-31-2012, 03:26 PM
[96] I therefore proportion liability as follows:

Westbrook Inspection Services Limited 50%
Lazarus and Coldwell Banker Terrequity Realty 25%
Glenda Halliwell 25%

On appeal the appellate court reversed the decision of the lower court and apportioned 100% of negligence on Westbrook Inspection Services from 50%.

That brought the costs of the inspector if memory serves me to $100K and he didn't carry E&O.

I happen to know the inspector.

Nathan Thornberry
12-31-2012, 04:02 PM
Sucks for him no doubt, this is why you carry E & O!

While $100k is a relatively large amount of money, the number of cases involving home inspectors that even come close to these numbers is miniscule. When you spoke to this inspector, was his general feeling that these people were out to hurt him, or were there steps he could have taken leading up to this to settle it for less?

Raymond Wand
12-31-2012, 04:14 PM
Didn't get to the nitty gritty as to the complainants and whether they were out to get him.

Raymond Wand
01-14-2013, 02:24 PM
Mikes new ad.

Mike Holmes Inspections | Message From Mike (http://mikeholmesinspections.com/about-us/message-from-mike)
9 seconds into clip hear what he thinks inspectors should be telling the client.

Jim Luttrall
01-14-2013, 04:22 PM
Funny, he talks about better inspections but then the website says they adhere to the ASHI Standards of Practice...
Sounds long on marketing but short on specifics of how they are better... but they do say they cost more.

Raymond Wand
01-14-2013, 04:31 PM
Mike takes a cut, all his inspections are subcontracted out, they have no in house inspectors.Thus, one reason for the additional cost.

Lon Henderson
01-15-2013, 07:26 AM
Even here in the lower 48, I occasionally have a client asking about Holmes doing something differently than me...........I think you enter dangerous ground by saying anything negative about Holmes to a client that thinks Holmes walks on water.

Raymond Wand
01-15-2013, 07:33 AM
Why do you think that given that Holmes is not certified by any home inspection association, and is not a home inspector, but a contractor who has continually showed just how ignorant of the profession he is.

His statements on his promotion video speaks to his ignorance.

Stephen G
01-16-2013, 06:25 AM
Job One: Temper Expectations

Job Two: De-bunk the Mike Holmes experience


It must be within the first few minutes inside any home...they ask 'do you watch MH...' (well I have to don't I).....I reply yes, and then we have a nice talk about actors and TV and how long he was in the house, and that he isnt a Home inspector and yes he has a nice show... not quite a reality TV show....Oh and he knocks every wall down he sees...and if my mom had a month in any home she cold find some major problems if they existed.....so this all circles back to ...

Job One...:eek:

Jeff Zehnder
01-16-2013, 09:03 AM
WOW – Mike Holmes must be the cause of the plague and other pestilence!

An interesting phenomenon of life is, for some reason people like to cut other people down in a vain attempt to build themselves up! I happens in politics and in every occupation and I know it works in politics (in the short term) it is dumb. Sales people talk about the marketing department, marketing people carp on sales people and trades people are quick to point out something they disagree with and then attack the offending trade that did the job.
It does not matter if you think poorly of Mike Holmes or well of him, if you want to criticize him criticize a specific item and not the person and suggest what should be done otherwise you (IMHO) look the fool. I have watched his show (it is entertaining) and like everyone he is not perfect. However, it appears that he is trying to do right in the industries he serves. How well he is doing you can judge but he is obviously trying and god forbids he is also trying to make money. If you disagree with that…OK but then do something about it and don’t just carp. I realize he works out of Canada and there are different standards but the message he has sent to average people has been clear and consistent.
Check out anyone you hire, make sure they are good at what they do and have a track record.
Get permits
Hire a home inspector before you buy.

How can you honestly criticize these items!!!

Mike Lamb
01-16-2013, 09:16 AM
I have to admit I have never seen the Mike Holmes show. Of course, clients have mentioned it to me.

I have seen this parody which is pretty funny.

Holmes on Homes at Home - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwPC-YBHMI4)

Raymond Wand
01-16-2013, 09:24 AM
Jeff

The problem is that Mr. Holmes is making statements that don't wash.
The last link I provided is another example of Holmes not having a clue about what an inspectors responsibilities are. For him to suggest inspector are to tell clients when to sell, is not the responsibility of the inspector and goes against the ethics of most associations.

If he wants to be a pontificate for the inspection business he had better get his facts straight and leave the bravado at home.

As to doing something about his statements, I know for a fact I have personally asked him both on a radio show and his facebook page about his qualifications and he never answers. How could he when he doesn't belong to any inspection associations.

He should put his money where his mouth is. He has been quoted on numerous media forums that he is a mould expert, IAQ expert, iR and qualified home inspector.

If I acted in the same manner to my clients and the public I would most certainly be called to task.

Regrettably no association has seen fit to call him out on the misnomers.