GC doing home inspection

[William Richardson]

Why do GC's even have the right to home inspect. I was one so I have the right to ask. Sure some know about construction but a majority don't have a clue. I have taken 20 yrs to gain the knowledge I have focusing on Home inspecting. Sending a GC on a home inspection is like having a GYN do a root canal. Once you get past the lips, it's a different world. Just venting!

[John Kogel]

Right, we have those here too. We have a license law for home inspection along with fines for violators if they get turned in, but it doesn't stop individuals from voicing opinions and getting paid for it. The law here does prohibit an unlicensed inspector from advertising HI services.

This thread should have gone in the Inspector Blues slot, but you are welcome to vent here in the attic area. :D

[Eric Barker]

It's my opinion that without adequate training for H.I.ing it can be difficult to appreciate how all the different systems and components in the home interact with each other. I also believe that while the GC may understand many aspects of new construction they might be a little weak in their exposure to how well things hold up in the long run.

[Jerry Peck]

Why do GC's even have the right to home inspect. I was one so I have the right to ask.

You won't like the answer, but ...

The answer is that it was a lot easier to allow GCs, BCs, and RCs to apply for a home inspectors license than it was for the much smaller home inspector associations and much fewer in number home inspectors to attempt to fight the much larger home builders association and the much greater in number Division 1 contractors about them not knowing enough to do home inspections.

I am also a GC, and when I went from being a GC to being a home inspector so many years ago, it was like I did not know anything - even though I had spent my life doing construction work of all phases. On the 'doing construction work' side of it I was doing what I had learned during all those years, then on the 'home inspector' side of it I learned that what I had learned was how to 'make things look right' when finished, but not necessarily how to 'make things right' so as to not have problems.

Then, during my home inspection time, and once I realized all that had been done incorrectly, I started expanding my knowledge of the codes and ended up applying that knowledge to all the new construction I was doing as a home inspector, and I was seeing that the other GCs did the same things I had done, only now I knew what to look for and why it did not work over time, and, how the codes addressed it.

After I retired from home inspections in 2006 I now do AHJ code inspections trying to help GCs learn what one would think they should already have known. :cool:

The GCs, BCs, and RCs who are doing home inspections (their grandfather date is come and gone, they either are already home inspectors or they will need to take the same route as any other new home inspector) are now on the same learning curve you are, and are probably telling themselves 'Dang, man, this requires A LOT more knowledge than I thought it did.' :D

[Paul Kondzich]

I had a call last week to schedule an inspection. Nothing was scheduled, but the agent was checking availability. I didn't think any more about it and got another call a week later for a Wind Mitigation. Turned out the buyer was a Canadian builder and didn't need a home inspection. I went for the Wind Mit, and saw seven things between walking around the house one time, and putting my head through the scuttle hole. I never entered the interior of the house. He said, "Maybe I should have had an inspection, aye."

[Aaron Miller]

What concerns me more, at least in Texas, is allowing PEs to do home inspections. At least the GC, which I was for 20 years prior to inspecting, has a boots-on-the-ground perspective of the construction process. Most, if not all, PEs receive no residential training in school. A few that I have met, if not many, suffer from the same ailment as most people in their seeming total lack of common sense. All of that coupled with no code training and no clue as to the effects the process of aging has on a structure and you have a recipe for disaster.

[Scott Patterson]

What concerns me more, at least in Texas, is allowing PEs to do home inspections. At least the GC, which I was for 20 years prior to inspecting, has a boots-on-the-ground perspective of the construction process. Most, if not all, PEs receive no residential training in school. A few that I have met, if not many, suffer from the same ailment as most people in their seeming total lack of common sense. All of that coupled with no code training and no clue as to the effects the process of aging has on a structure and you have a recipe for disaster.


i agree with Aaron... A person might be a PE and doing home inspections but they might have their engineering discipline in Agriculture or Bio Medicine or any of the many unrelated engineering fields. Earning a PE designation is a great accomplishment but it does not mean you know about residential light construction and inspecting homes.

Heck my niece is a PE, but she is an environmental engineer who know diddly squat about home inspections..

[Aaron Miller]

Heck my niece is a PE, but she is an environmental engineer who know diddly squat about home inspections..

Texas law allows any PE to inspect houses without the otherwise required education and licensing. All too often I find that the PE "inspector" is an electrical engineer or electronics engineer, or has spent the last few years designing bowling balls, brassieres, or video games. One need merely visit the site of the Board of Engineers to discover what field their degree is in.

Of course, in Texas, what with absolutely no home builder or contractor oversight, perhaps it is apropos. Why would one need a full-blown structural engineer to critique an unlicensed, uninsured, uneducated, unbonded builder wannabe who builds shacks d.b.a. houses?:confused:

[Jerry McCarthy]

The bigger joke than PEs doing home inspections is architects doing them.

[Jerry Peck]

The bigger joke than PEs doing home inspections is architects doing them.

Glad to see you posting, WC Jerry. :cool:

[Aaron Miller]

The bigger joke than PEs doing home inspections is architects doing them.

Agreed!

[Benjamin Thompson]

If the contractors were qualified to do home inspections, nobody would need a home inspection, we wouldn't have anything to report. Thank goodness, they aren't.

[Garry Blankenship]

If the contractors were qualified to do home inspections, nobody would need a home inspection, we wouldn't have anything to report. Thank goodness, they aren't.

Ahmen ! In my state to get a G/C license it takes a limited amout of $ , ( used to be $ 15 , probably $ 200 to $ 500 now ), and the ability to fill out the app-le-kay-shun. Engineers as an inspector are a joke. Their education / discipline is too specific to meet the need, ( geo-tech, electrical, environmental, etc. ). Architects have a more diverse education, but the same issues remain - - - limited depth in too many of the Home Inspection disciplines. G/Cs build, engineers engineer, Architects design and Home Inspectors inspect homes. If the local laws say differently, their dangerously off base.

[BridgeMan]

I'm a P.E. (civil) with a background in concrete, steel and timber construction. Guess that qualifies me for being "a joke" by you HI's.

Oh, and I've built a few garages and major home additions, poured more concrete than I can count, laid brick and block, framed a few complex roof additions, plumbed and wired more than I care to think about, welded structural steel, etc.

Hope I graduate from the "joke" category before I leave this planet! For sure, the clock is ticking.

And I even know the difference between "their" and "they're."

[Aaron Miller]

I'm a P.E. (civil) with a background in concrete, steel and timber construction. Guess that qualifies me for being "a joke" by you HI's.

The comments were obviously not intended to address engineers, like yourself, with actual construction experience. They were aimed at the >90% of P.E.s who know absolutely nothing of residential (or any other) construction techniques. Much like doctors and a few other professions, engineers have a tendency to specialize in one particular field. This leaves few, if any, general practitioners with wide knowledge bases.

In my experience, the wider the knowledge base, the better the chance for the existence of that rarefied quality - common sense. I come from a family of myopically-focused, specialized engineers. Somehow I managed to dodge that bullet and have (almost);) never regretted taking the other road.

[Rich Goeken]

What concerns me more, at least in Texas, is allowing PEs to do home inspections. At least the GC, which I was for 20 years prior to inspecting, has a boots-on-the-ground perspective of the construction process. Most, if not all, PEs receive no residential training in school. A few that I have met, if not many, suffer from the same ailment as most people in their seeming total lack of common sense. All of that coupled with no code training and no clue as to the effects the process of aging has on a structure and you have a recipe for disaster.

Right on Aaron. I have worked with PE's who couldn't even design a steel bracket. After the 3rd incomplete drawing I gave up. They have tunnel vision in their own specific disciplines only. Go outside that envelope and they are lost. Architects too.

[Ken Amelin]

Texas law allows any PE to inspect houses without the otherwise required education and licensing. All too often I find that the PE "inspector" is an electrical engineer or electronics engineer, or has spent the last few years designing bowling balls, brassieres, or video games. One need merely visit the site of the Board of Engineers to discover what field their degree is in.

Of course, in Texas, what with absolutely no home builder or contractor oversight, perhaps it is apropos. Why would one need a full-blown structural engineer to critique an unlicensed, uninsured, uneducated, unbonded builder wannabe who builds shacks d.b.a. houses?:confused:

Allowing P.E.'s to conduct home inpsections ABSOLUTELY makes sense to me. They have a wealth of educational and technical experience. Additionally the examine for a PE license is no "simple test" that home inspectors take to qualify.

Does one think that a licensed home inspector has the enough background or ammunition with the "otherwise required education and licensing".

Having said that, just because a person with a PE or a person with a HI license is allowed to inspect a property, it doesn't make them a good inspector. It's a combination of education, experience and personal skills that make for a good inspector.

The license only allows one to conduct the business of home inspections. Having a PE license is a good reason to ALLOW someone to conduct the business of inspections. Weather they are good or not is something else.

If you are good at what you do, you will benefit from good referals and a growing business. If you are not good at what you do - word gets out and you will be liable for your actions.

I believe that a person with a PE licesne should be given the opportunity to conduct the HI business and to proove themselves. They earned the right.

[Aaron Miller]

I believe that a person with a PE licesne should be given the opportunity to conduct the HI business and to proove themselves. They earned the right.

Proove it to us.:eek: Let's see your licensne:cool:

[Ken Amelin]

Proove it to us.:eek: Let's see your licensne:cool:

Unfortunately, I only have a HI license. I wish I had my PE license.

But really, Just think about this.

As home inspectors, we defer our "unlicensed" opinions and recommendations to PE's on a regular basis, because they are licensed to provide those opinions.

It only makes sense to allow them to practice a "lower tier" business.

It doesn't make them better than you.:D

[Rich Goeken]

Unfortunately, I only have a HI license. I wish I had my PE license.

But really, Just think about this.

As home inspectors, we defer our "unlicensed" opinions and recommendations to PE's on a regular basis, because they are licensed to provide those opinions.

It only makes sense to allow them to practice a "lower tier" business.

It doesn't make them better than you.:D


But Ken, You defer to PE's on occasions. But they are specific questions that are referred to those that practice and are knowledgeable in that specific discipline.

Not all PE's do everything. Typically they keep track of the rules, codes, and other restrictions in their area of expertise only. A HI needs to have knowledge in all arenas up to the need to call in a specialist for the issue in question.

I personally, would trust a PE on structural comments, but not other areas unless he could demonstrate experience and continuing education in those areas too. These are my comments from experience. Sorry PE's.... :(

[Lon Henderson]

I have done a dozen inspections over the years for PEs and GCs that were buying a home. All have said that they were glad that they hired me. One was walking behind me with a note pad. At the end of the inspection, he informed me that he was a PE and that he had caught almost every defect that I had.

Even though PEs can be very familiar with home construction and features, they simply don't examine every element of a house everyday the way that we do. Ditto, for GCs who likely are very knowledgeable.

I constantly tell people that one of the nice things about my line of work is that I no longer have to figure out the best way to fix something. I only have to point it out as being wrong or broken.........

[Rich Goeken]

Even though PEs can be very familiar with home construction and features, they simply don't examine every element of a house everyday the way that we do. Ditto, for GCs who likely are very knowledgeable.

While I was reading your comment I thought of something. A PE/GC generally is involved in new construction... they rarely see the ramifications of some of their decisions that usually happen a few years down the road. HI's have have this history, and can call upon their experience to comment knowledgeably on a situation.

[Jerry Peck]

As when referencing any given trade, the above comments on PEs are not all inclusive.

The same can be said about contractors - there are good ones who are knowledgeable and well rounded (typically they have specialized in remodeling/renovation/alteration) and there are good one who are knowledgeable but not well rounded in that knowledge, and, there are bad one.

The same can be said about code inspectors, doctors, lawyers, and ... yes ... and home inspectors.

When I was inspecting in South Florida, one of my friends and compatriot home inspectors was a PE, a structural PE. I met him shortly after I started in home inspections and was attending a FABI chapter meeting, as we were sitting at the table eating dinner at the meeting we began talking about things we'd seen. After talking a while he asked if I had inspected at house in Boca Raton, in some development, on such and such street - I thought for a while and said that sounds familiar. He asked me about some trusses in the attic and I said something like 'Oh, yeah, I remember, there was blah, blah, blah.' He said 'I was wondering if I would ever meet the home inspector who found that stuff and called for a structural engineer - not only for the repairs you pointed out which were needed, but also for the improperly designed trusses you had questioned. They were indeed incorrectly designed.'

Yes, he was a PE and a home inspector. And he was VERY GOOD AT BOTH.

[Scott Patterson]

I'm a P.E. (civil) with a background in concrete, steel and timber construction. Guess that qualifies me for being "a joke" by you HI's.

Oh, and I've built a few garages and major home additions, poured more concrete than I can count, laid brick and block, framed a few complex roof additions, plumbed and wired more than I care to think about, welded structural steel, etc.

Hope I graduate from the "joke" category before I leave this planet! For sure, the clock is ticking.

And I even know the difference between "their" and "they're."

No, being a PE is not a joke; it is a great professional accomplishment.

What is your engineering discipline?

If it is mechanical engineering or civil and you are a PE I would say that you would be qualified to offer opinions in residential light construction as long as those opines are in your related field.

Now if it is bio-medical, agricultural, hydro, etc, etc... I would say that you are not qualified to offer opinions in residential construction. Unless it relates to a problem or design in your field.

[lim ace]

I am an architect, Gc and home inspector and offer my services are 3 rolled in one. I find that my architectural and construction knowledge makes me a better inspector, and my experience of inspecting sharpens my architectural and construction skills. I'd acknowledge that for shear knowledge of buildings components and how they SHOULD come together, or not, you cannot beat an inspector. Inspecting knowledge and price being equal however, I'd always pick an inspector/GC/PE/A over an inspector solely, as I would pick a dentist/dental surgeon over a dentist solely, and an english/French/Latin translator over an English/french translator.

[Scott Patterson]

I am an architect, Gc and home inspector and offer my services are 3 rolled in one. I find that my architectural and construction knowledge makes me a better inspector, and my experience of inspecting sharpens my architectural and construction skills. I'd acknowledge that for shear knowledge of buildings components and how they SHOULD come together, or not, you cannot beat an inspector. Inspecting knowledge and price being equal however, I'd always pick an inspector/GC/PE/A over an inspector solely, as I would pick a dentist/dental surgeon over a dentist solely, and an english/French/Latin translator over an English/french translator.

Why not post your real name. Most of us who want to be taken seriously do not hide under pseudo names, we use our real names.

I have a Limace that I found in a field. It is a scrapping tool that was made a few thousand years ago by our one of our native Americans.

[lim ace]

Way to welcome a first time poster, Scott. Don't worry, I have nothing to hide. My real name would not ad anything to my post, other than giving online entities more access to my personal information, which always results in more unwanted solicitations from other companies. My real name is actually Jerry Peck, but since there was already THE Jerry Peck, I just went with my alter ego, Lim Ace.;)

[Aaron Miller]

I'd always pick an inspector/GC/PE/A over an inspector solely, as I would pick a dentist/dental surgeon over a dentist solely, and an english/French/Latin translator over an English/french translator.

Only an engineer could so loosely construe logic. Whatever your real name is, it is likely an white-bred [sic] American name, from whence come the least educated of all of the world's engineers.

[Michael Choffin]

What is the hate on P.E.s and registered Architects?
I don’t know what the process is to become a registered Architect, but for a Professional Engineers, first, you must go through an accredited Engineering program, then, take and pass the Fundamentals of Engineering test, then, complete four-years of engineering experience and then, take and pass the Professional Engineers (PE) exam.
Yes, this makes you book smart and able to function in the engineering profession, but I agree, that it does make you immediately quailed to perform home inspections.
Most P.E. are either Civil, Mechanical, Environmental, Industrial or Electrical. I really doubt that someone would go from Agriculture, Bio Medicine, or Environmental Engineering (Scott Patterson) to home inspections. Besides, if you are an Agriculture Engineer or a Bio Medicinal Engineer having a P.E. would be a waste of your time and provide little value to your profession.
I am a P.E, and have over 20 years of experience doing commercial due diligence inspections and construction monitoring projects. I've done some home inspections and would not consider doing it for a living. You guys take on too much liability for what sounds like insufficient pay.
Besides, have you read some of the posts that show up here? It frightens me to think that some of these guys (Home Inspectors) take payment for their “services”.

[lim ace]

Thanks Aaron for proving my point. The more diversely educated/ experienced/ skilled one is, the better able they are to ad to any situation. I do not know what your background is, but had you been a holder of a master's in English , linguistics, literature, or Greek logic, on top of being an inspector, your understanding of language and logic would have qualified you to not only understanding my point, but also to comment on it adequately. :D
My point is that a dentist who is also qualified to offer dental surgery (whether he actually does practice dental surgery or not is another issue) would be better qualified to address the gravity of dental issues than a regular dentist. Also, a translator who knows latin would also know the roots of most english and french words and would thus offer better translation than one who does not.
I am neither white-bred (actually there is absolutely nothing white about me other than teeth and eyes) and am not an engineer. I am an architect and general building contractor. I do agree with you however about foreign engineers being well educated.

[Aaron Miller]

@ Lim Ace

Where I am from an architect must be an engineer. Therefore I just assumed that you were of that tribe. My honest mistake. Maybe in Lim Aceland architects can just hang out a shingle and start drawing pictures and a salary.

The white-bred comment was not aimed at your race, which I trust shall remain unknown, but rather at the schools in this country which tend to be, with very few exceptions, just that - white-bred, and underachieving.

BTW: I agree with Scott. Maybe you should man up and show your name and location or find another place to lurk and shred logic. Or not. It matters little to me. The ignore list on this forum, as far as I know, has no limits.

[lim ace]

Where is it that an architect must also be an engineer? I know that Texas is another place altogether but not to that extreme!
Either way, I appreciate greatly you letting me keep my Lim ace, outside of Lim Aceland. Thank you.
Respectfully,
Lim Ace the First, king of Lim Aceland.

[Garry Sorrells]

Do not be to hard on Lim Ace. It took him 2 years to come back and make a posting.

lim ace or limace? Did you obtain your Art. Lic yet?

Were you able to instal your water heater? Or did you sub it out ?

[Aaron Miller]

lim ace or limace?

However it is, it fit right nicely into my ignore list. Adiós lim!:)

[lim ace]

Hi Gary
Yes, i did, and yes, I did. Interestingly enough, I am about to move the water heater again as I am building above the area where it was tucked in. The forum was of a great help when I asked for advice during that process, but then as for now, some grumpy lad always made it a point to give me a hard time.
Please don't put me in the ignore list, Aaron, everything but the ignore list! How can I live the rest of my life in your ignore list?:(

[Rich Goeken]

What is the hate on P.E.s and registered Architects?
I don’t know what the process is to become a registered Architect, but for a Professional Engineers, first, you must go through an accredited Engineering program, then, take and pass the Fundamentals of Engineering test, then, complete four-years of engineering experience and then, take and pass the Professional Engineers (PE) exam.
Yes, this makes you book smart and able to function in the engineering profession, but I agree, that it does make you immediately quailed to perform home inspections.
Most P.E. are either Civil, Mechanical, Environmental, Industrial or Electrical. I really doubt that someone would go from Agriculture, Bio Medicine, or Environmental Engineering (Scott Patterson) to home inspections. Besides, if you are an Agriculture Engineer or a Bio Medicinal Engineer having a P.E. would be a waste of your time and provide little value to your profession.
I am a P.E, and have over 20 years of experience doing commercial due diligence inspections and construction monitoring projects. I've done some home inspections and would not consider doing it for a living. You guys take on too much liability for what sounds like insufficient pay.
Besides, have you read some of the posts that show up here? It frightens me to think that some of these guys (Home Inspectors) take payment for their “services”.


Mike,
From being on industrial sites and watching the Architect forcing changes (the color wasn't the right shade---it was tan, but one shade darker), on contractors that had to build scaffolding over escalators to get to the equipment (on a 30' ceiling where you couldn't see the difference anyway), remove it, paint it, and replace it (much money wasted here $$$)---or design rooms that were half in the sun and half out without doing a 365 solar study and/or providing individual HVAC units, as examples---you would understand the "hate" (hate is not the correct word here) some people have towards Architect's.

I don't see the same "hate" (ditto) towards PE's here, only observations that if they wish to do HI work they should be certified and trained in that field, and not just rest on their PE laurels.

It's like the ads that are running on TV now... you wouldn't want your Doctor performing in a symphony replacing you--so don't try to do what the Doctor does concerning your health!!! :rolleyes:

Nothing contained here represents any discouraging remarks to the professions of Architect's or PE's.

[Jerry Peck]

GCs doing home inspections ...

Let's see now ... ummmm ... I am a GC ... I started doing home inspections ... ummmm ... guess I should not have started doing home inspections? :confused:

I will agree, though, that when I started doing home inspections I was shocked - shocked, that what I had been taught to do and was doing resulted in things not being done correctly and not lasting as they should - I was not inspecting the homes I constructed, but other homes constructed similarly as that was how we did it back then.

I will also say this, and say it loud and clear: CONTRACTORS, CODE INSPECTORS, yeah, and probably architects and structural engineers too, SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO *APPRENTICE* WITH A HOME INSPECTOR FOR AT LEAST ONE YEAR (and maybe even 5 years) BEFORE BEING ALLOWED TO BECOME THAT contractor, code inspector, architect, structural engineer, BECAUSE THEY WILL SEE WHAT WORKS AND WHAT *DOES NOT* WORK, and maybe construction will get better as a result.

Doing the above would certainly be an eye-opener for the participants.

[Scott Patterson]

What is the hate on P.E.s and registered Architects?
I don’t know what the process is to become a registered Architect, but for a Professional Engineers, first, you must go through an accredited Engineering program, then, take and pass the Fundamentals of Engineering test, then, complete four-years of engineering experience and then, take and pass the Professional Engineers (PE) exam.
Yes, this makes you book smart and able to function in the engineering profession, but I agree, that it does make you immediately quailed to perform home inspections.
Most P.E. are either Civil, Mechanical, Environmental, Industrial or Electrical. I really doubt that someone would go from Agriculture, Bio Medicine, or Environmental Engineering (Scott Patterson) to home inspections. Besides, if you are an Agriculture Engineer or a Bio Medicinal Engineer having a P.E. would be a waste of your time and provide little value to your profession.
I am a P.E, and have over 20 years of experience doing commercial due diligence inspections and construction monitoring projects. I've done some home inspections and would not consider doing it for a living. You guys take on too much liability for what sounds like insufficient pay.
Besides, have you read some of the posts that show up here? It frightens me to think that some of these guys (Home Inspectors) take payment for their “services”.

I do not think the majority of folks have an issue with PE's, but being a PE or an Architect does not make one a home inspector. Very few PE's deal really with residential construction, for most commercial work is their cup of tea.

As I said, I can see a Mechanical or a Civil engineer moving with ease into home inspections. Electrical, Industrial and the other disciplines are a stretch but with some additional training they could move into home inspections.

As for Architects, my experience has shown that they cause most of the design problems with the homes and building we see on a day to day basis. The good ones that stay in their profession are doing good work, those that don't are looking for other green fields and for some reason drift towards home inspections....

[lim ace]

The good ones that stay in their profession are doing good work, those that don't are looking for other green fields and for some reason drift towards home inspections....[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the assumption, Scott regarding my qualifications as a good architect based on the fact that I don't stay in my field and drifted towards home inspections. The reason why I am a GC and home inspector besides being an architect is simply that I feel that each is simply one facet of the whole, and preferably, one wants to be as well-rounded as one can, while learning as much as one can. Being a home inspector makes me a better GC and architect, and vice versa., and being an inspector has gotten me jobs as GC and architect. I subscribed to this forum because I thought I would learn something, and I do, everyday.
If I can make a quick $500 as an inspector slash other, while getting my creative juices satisfied as an architect, I say I get the best of both words.
Which is harder, you tell me, for an architect, Gc or PE to do home inspections of for a home inspector to design and or build a building? Which is harder, to design a building for months, dealing, and clashing with clients, building inspectors, planning department, GCs... or pinpoint the errors in a building in a matter of hours? My wife, who is not a home inspector came along on a inspection, and was able to point out many issues unprompted.
So, there is great value in what we do, but ask yourself who is the indispensable one among the building professionals?

[Scott Patterson]

The good ones that stay in their profession are doing good work, those that don't are looking for other green fields and for some reason drift towards home inspections....

Thanks for the assumption, Scott regarding my qualifications as a good architect based on the fact that I don't stay in my field and drifted towards home inspections. The reason why I am a GC and home inspector besides being an architect is simply that I feel that each is simply one facet of the whole, and preferably, one wants to be as well-rounded as one can, while learning as much as one can. Being a home inspector makes me a better GC and architect, and vice versa., and being an inspector has gotten me jobs as GC and architect. I subscribed to this forum because I thought I would learn something, and I do, everyday.
If I can make a quick $500 as an inspector slash other, while getting my creative juices satisfied as an architect, I say I get the best of both words.
Which is harder, you tell me, for an architect, Gc or PE to do home inspections of for a home inspector to design and or build a building? Which is harder, to
design a building for months, dealing, and clashing with clients, building inspectors, planning department, GCs... or pinpoint the errors in a building in a matter of hours? My wife, who is not a home inspector came along on a inspection, and was able to point out many issues unprompted.
So, there is great value in what we do, but ask yourself who is the indispensable one among the building professionals?

I do not feel anyone is indispensable, all have their place and all have their unique challenges.

[lim ace]

I do not feel anyone is indispensable, all have their place and all have their unique challenges.[/QUOTE]
Agree!:)

[Rich Goeken]

I do not feel anyone is indispensable, all have their place and all have their unique challenges.
Agree!:)[/quote]

You guys are making it hard to understand with all the half quotes!!!! I think, based upon the half quotes, you were patting each ther on the back. N'est-ce pas?

[Scott Patterson]

Agree!:)

You guys are making it hard to understand with all the half quotes!!!! I think, based upon the half quotes, you were patting each ther on the back. N'est-ce pas?[/QUOTE]

Bless your heart... ;)

[lim ace]

I was. I have always liked Scott's interventions in this forum, in tone and content.
By the way, I am already starting to feel the ill effects of being in Aaron's ignore list, my whole life has been gloom and doom since yesterday.:(

[Aaron Miller]

N'est-ce pas?

Certaines personnes sont plus dispensables que d'autres.

[lim ace]

Certaines personnes sont plus dispensables que d'autres.

C'est exactement ce que je disais. Au moins Aaron et moi sont sur la meme page. j'espere que je ne suis plus sur la liste ignoree.

[lim ace]

Не е ли Google Translate чудесно?
Isn't google translate wonderful!;)

[Rick Cantrell]

The bigger joke than PEs doing home inspections is architects doing them.

Jerry's last post on IN

[Matt Fellman]

There was a case I heard about years ago.... I wish I could remember more specifics. Basically, it was a PE who thought he could breeze through a home inspection for a friend of a friend. In a nutshell he totally blew it.... missed all kinds of bug damage, water intrusion and mechanical things (he was a structural PE).

I studied Civil Engineering (3 years - no degree) and my bus. partner has a Civil Eng. degree. We often talk about the differences in the PE vs. HI fields. Sure, the PE is a great start but there is a A LOT more to it than calculating beam loads and truss member stress.

Any PE getting his panties in a wad over the topic should understand no one is knocking you. Heck, I wish I had not taken one term (turned into the rest of my life) off and had got the degree. It's just that engineering and inspecting homes are two different fields. The basic skills and problem solving in getting the degree are a great start. One could argue it's the best START. But, it's just that.... a start.

[William Richardson]

GCs doing home inspections ...

Let's see now ... ummmm ... I am a GC ... I started doing home inspections ... ummmm ... guess I should not have started doing home inspections? :confused:

I will agree, though, that when I started doing home inspections I was shocked - shocked, that what I had been taught to do and was doing resulted in things not being done correctly and not lasting as they should - I was not inspecting the homes I constructed, but other homes constructed similarly as that was how we did it back then.

I will also say this, and say it loud and clear: CONTRACTORS, CODE INSPECTORS, yeah, and probably architects and structural engineers too, SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO *APPRENTICE* WITH A HOME INSPECTOR FOR AT LEAST ONE YEAR (and maybe even 5 years) BEFORE BEING ALLOWED TO BECOME THAT contractor, code inspector, architect, structural engineer, BECAUSE THEY WILL SEE WHAT WORKS AND WHAT *DOES NOT* WORK, and maybe construction will get better as a result.

Doing the above would certainly be an eye-opener for the participants.

I agree. Hello all. I started this whole topic. Look, I don't are if you are a dentist. Just get the training and the apprenticeship that will make you a truly qualified inspector. On the same token, would you go to a pediatrist to have a colon exam? Well maybe if you got your foot up your ass. Just get the training!!!

[Aaron Miller]

Just get the training and the apprenticeship that will make you a truly qualified inspector.

And what about construction experience? All of the training and apprenticing in the world will not fill the void caused by a lack of a fundamental understanding of the building trades. Nothing, and I repeat nothing, takes the place of hands-on construction experience. If you don't have it you don't belong in this profession.

Without it you are just another rubber-stamped, out-of-a-crackerjack-box, roboinspector involved in on-the-job training, all the while taking your customers' money under false pretenses.:D

[Lon Henderson]

I certainly think that the best inspectors come from the trades. But a good apprenticeship can do the same thing. I came from the trades and was fortunate enough to have worked with turn-key companies. I have done everything except lay brick. When a bad case of tendinitis forced me out of construction into real estate, I accompanied home inspectors on hundreds of my client's inspections.

Colorado still doesn't have any licensing for home inspectors. Years ago, I helped a Realtor board president write some legislation to create licensing. The legislation turned it down, saying that they simply didn't see public complaining about home inspections. I guess that something good about our business at the time, but the times, they are a changing.

Home inspection is becoming the masculine equivalent of massage therapy. (I know there are a few women in this biz, but surly no one will dispute that it is a male dominated business) With schools spewing "home inspectors" out, the average level of competence is plummeting. More and more, I have agents calling me to ask about an inspection report that they just received on their listing. These wannabees or newbees say and do some pretty nutty things. Based on some of the things that I have read here and heard from friends in other states, even states with licensing and rigid SoPs, there can have some lousy inspectors.

I was at a Remax office meeting where a franchise inspector was giving a presentation. I was sitting on the last row in the meeting. No kidding, six times this guy said something that caused half the agents to turn around in their seats and look at me for confirmation that this guy had just said something wrong. And he had.

Colorado created an apprenticeship requirement for appraisers years ago. It is a pain in the rear for anyone trying to become an appraiser, but today, every appraiser here has a lot of experience. I am not someone who likes a lot of regulation, but in a business where the public can so easily be duped, licensing and regulation makes more sense. I think that apprenticeship should be a requirement. Even with my experience when I started this business, I really don't think I became a great inspector until I had done two hundred inspections on my own.

[Rod Smith]

What I wish would happen, is that ALL Architects, Engineers, etc. (anyone who has the responsibility of designing/inspecting) have the requirement of working hands-on in a trade related to their core industry, such as carpentry, masonry, electrician, etc. PRIOR to being able to qualify for their certification. I fbelieve some of the obviously DUMB things designed would be reduced if a person had a "feel" for what they were asking others to do.

[Scott Patterson]

And what about construction experience? All of the training and apprenticing in the world will not fill the void caused by a lack of a fundamental understanding of the building trades. Nothing, and I repeat nothing, takes the place of hands-on construction experience. If you don't have it you don't belong in this profession.

Without it you are just another rubber-stamped, out-of-a-crackerjack-box, roboinspector involved in on-the-job training, all the while taking your customers' money under false pretenses.:D

Now Aaron, that is rather narrow minded don't you think!

I did not grow up in the trades and I think I'm a fairly competent inspector. Sure it took me more time, training and work to reach a level that I felt comfortable with my knowledge base. It all depends on the individual.

If working in the trades would insure a person would be a good home inspector then we would not find so many screwed up things on all of the homes and buildings we inspect. You must admit that if the trades were producing quality individuals we would not be finding half of what we do.

[David Dolch]

What I wish would happen, is that ALL Architects, Engineers, etc. (anyone who has the responsibility of designing/inspecting) have the requirement of working hands-on in a trade related to their core industry, such as carpentry, masonry, electrician, etc. PRIOR to being able to qualify for their certification. I fbelieve some of the obviously DUMB things designed would be reduced if a person had a "feel" for what they were asking others to do.

A PE does have that requirement. I happen to have both a BS and an MS in Civil Engineering, however I am NOT a P.E. I passed my EIT licensing, and I did train in the Engineering design field (to be more accurate, "performing engineering work under the supervision of a licensed engineer") but not for long enough. A job offer (a much better job offer) came along and I took it before I had enough training time to enable me to sit for my license exam. The job I do now carries and engineer title (senior Engineer to be exact) but since what I do does not involve any real design work, I cannot (nor would I try at this point) to sit for my license.

I also happen to have a background in construction. I have had friends ask me to "look at" houses. While I am more than happy to do so, I also explain to them that I know very little about certain things - HVAC design or insect damage for example. I'll tell them if I see anything wrong, but just because I don't see anything does not mean there is nothing. They need a HI.

It is all a matter of specilization. When I was doing geotech engineering work, I was quialified to take soil samples, bring them back to the lab, run compaction tests on them, determine their loading capacity, and design a footing. I was not qualified to design the structure on top of that footing, nor would I claim to be.

-dave

[Garry Sorrells]

This discussion made me think of something that would be useful for many HI. Not practical for all, due to location, but maybe some. Here is the thread on the upcoming Remodeling Show and Deck Expo being held in Baltimore, MD. October 9,10,11,12.

Understanding construction materials and installation (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/other-education/32517-understanding-construction-materials-installation.html)

[Russel Ray]

Here in California, anyone can be a home inspector. You just have to have enough money to print up some business cards and do a little advertising.

[Aaron Miller]

Now Aaron, that is rather narrow minded don't you think!

@ Scott: Was that a question, or what! [sic]:D

[Aaron Miller]

What I wish would happen, is that ALL Architects, Engineers, etc. (anyone who has the responsibility of designing/inspecting) have the requirement of working hands-on in a trade related to their core industry, such as carpentry, masonry, electrician, etc. PRIOR to being able to qualify for their certification. I fbelieve some of the obviously DUMB things designed would be reduced if a person had a "feel" for what they were asking others to do.

Agreed.

[Aaron Miller]

Home inspection is becoming the masculine equivalent of massage therapy.

Huh?:confused: :eek:

[Aaron Miller]

I certainly think that the best inspectors come from the trades. But a good apprenticeship can do the same thing.

@ Lon: That first statement works for me. Not the second. The additional dimension of understanding provided by actually having built a few houses and all which that entails is not something that can be accomplished by all of the mentoring in the inspection field that one can withstand.

[John Kogel]

@ Lon: That first statement works for me. Not the second. The additional dimension of understanding provided by actually having built a few houses and all which that entails is not something that can be accomplished by all of the mentoring in the inspection field that one can withstand.It depends on what you are inspecting, doesn't it? Manufactured homes, modulars, or condos have features a builder of SF residences wouldn't be familiar with.

A framer doesn't know all there is to know about wiring, plumbing, HVAC, mold, or asbestos. I rarely find framing problems in the original house. That part is usually OK. An electrician would make a better inspector here, or at least someone that knows the electrical code rules. But you don't have to have experience pulling wire to inspect it. You need to know bad when you see it and that comes from inspection experience and a good memory.
.

[Lon Henderson]

@ Lon: That first statement works for me. Not the second. The additional dimension of understanding provided by actually having built a few houses and all which that entails is not something that can be accomplished by all of the mentoring in the inspection field that one can withstand.
I think an apprenticeship can work. For most of us from the trades, we essentially learned that trade by on the job training. A guy or gal, has to like this business. If you like it, then I think you can learn it by on the job training or apprenticeship. I have mentored several guys. A few made good inspectors and a couple moved on to something else when they realized it wasn't for them.

[Marc M]

I'm a GC, in two states if it matters...:rolleyes:

[Rich Goeken]

I'm a GC, in two states if it matters...:rolleyes:

And you mention that... because?:confused:

[Aaron Miller]

I think an apprenticeship can work.

@ Lon: Of course, anything is possible. This is, in my experience, not probable. Texas has had apprenticeship involved in the licensing process for years. A cursory look around at the products of this process would lead a cognizant person to believe that it simply does not work.

But then, we need not agree on everything.:)

[Jerry Peck]

I'm a GC, in two states if it matters...:rolleyes:


And you mention that... because?:confused:

Because this tread is about:
Title: "GC doing home inspection"
And this was the original post:

Why do GC's even have the right to home inspect.

And because Marc, myself, and others are GCs, and because they do home inspections and I did home inspections.

[bob smit]

Playing the devil's advocate... my experience has taught me to trust a well educated builder/contractor with much experience than a book taught HI.
I don't expect anyone here to agree with my experience, nor do I want to change any minds. It is sometimes helpful to realize there are other opinions from like professionals out here.

[Jerry Peck]

Playing the devil's advocate... my experience has taught me to trust a well educated builder/contractor with much experience than a book taught HI.

And when comparing the well educated GC just starting into the home inspection business to a well educated GC who is also a well educated home inspector? There are many on this forum who meet that description.

[bob smit]

Per J.P.,
And when comparing the well educated GC just starting into the home inspection business to a well educated GC who is also a well educated home inspector? There are many on this forum who meet that description.
__________________

I'll buy that.;)

[Aaron Miller]

@JP and Bob:

Well-educated home inspectors who have never been GCs will never have the depth of knowledge or understanding that those who have had the pleasure of building houses experience. Further, I would not want someone with absolutely no construction experience critiquing a house for me.

While it may be the case that rare individuals are able to fully assimilate any kind of knowledge strictly from books or hearsay, I posit that their numbers are damn few in the general population and fewer still in the HI profession.

While I do not begrudge those lacking real-time experience their jobs as HIs, it is my considered opinion that they serve only to make the crowd larger and thus dilute the profession. A very select few of the present company excepted, I presume . . .

A home inspection is THE pivotal point in any resale or new build sales transaction. In my area the title company employees will tell anyone who will listen that at least 50% of the deals fall out at the inspections. The HI is also the first line of defense for the home buyer. With such a burden of responsibility it behooves our profession to take measures to insure that only the the most experienced and knowledgeable enter the field.

Raise the bar, and continue raising it.

[Rich Goeken]

Because this tread is about:
Title: "GC doing home inspection"
And this was the original post:


And because Marc, myself, and others are GCs, and because they do home inspections and I did home inspections.


Geeze Jerry, I was asking Marc why he posted in this portion of the thread with no other comments. Was interested in his experience in this area. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. :)

[Jerry Peck]

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. :)

Rich,

You didn't ruffle any feathers :) ... I was just answering your question. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers by answering for Marc. :)

[Lon Henderson]

In my area the title company employees will tell anyone who will listen that at least 50% of the deals fall out at the inspections.
My knee jerk reaction is that you guys have some crappy homes, hard-case sellers unwilling to do repairs, or a bunch of inspectors who make mountains out of molehills.:eek:

50% seems crazy high. Around here, I would be surprised if it was more than 10% of sales fail because of the inspection. I have been labeled as a "deal killer" by a few agents, but I don't think more than 3% of the houses that I inspect fail to complete the sale because of the inspection.

Maybe it is just a difference in culture. 98% of all sales (except investor purchases) involve a home inspection. Our real estate purchase contract has an inspection clause pre-printed in it. Buyers and sellers all expect an inspection and expect to have to deal with inspection issues.

[Aaron Miller]

50% seems crazy high.

I believe I mentioned that any title company in the area would tell this to anyone who will listen. Don't take my word for it - I've only been in this market for 37 years - pick up the phone and call a title company in the DFW area.


98% of all sales (except investor purchases) involve a home inspection

The number is quite a bit less in this area. In fact, the last ASHI statistic I remember seeing was around 77%, which is about what we see here.


My knee jerk reaction is that you guys have some crappy homes, hard-case sellers unwilling to do repairs

Builders have never been licensed and were only barely regulated for about 5 years through the TRCC. They are back again to no regulation. Too many Republicans is the cause. What trickles down is crap housing.

The resale contract assumes the house to be purchased in as-is condition. While negotiations abound, repairs are not required.


, or a bunch of inspectors who make mountains out of molehills.

If you mean inspectors who couldn't inspect their butts with flashlights and mirrors, yes we have a bumper crop. If by that you mean inspectors who actually do what they are paid to do, then no we don't have many of them here.

[Lon Henderson]

That's interesting. To tell where I sit, I am not a big one for lots of regulation. Construction is a business where the public is vulnerable to shifty and crummy contractors. Regulation at some level makes sense, but even with regulation, enforcement is the only way to give regulation teeth. So, it falls on the code enforcers to make these shabby GCs tow the line. Shame on them if they are allowing constant and consistent crummy work. I doubt that home inspectors can have much impact, unless it becomes normal for new construction to be inspected. Around here, I'd be surprised if 10% of new construction is inspected by a home inspector. (Several years ago, I did a one year anniversary inspection on tract home. I found a significant mistake by the builder. The owner passed this on to his neighbors and within a week I had inspected six of his neighbors. None had had a home inspection when they bought)

I've concluded that licensing for GC's makes little difference in quality of work. Licensing just tests how well someone can take the test, even if it is a hard test. Which leads us back to the original discussion. Can a crummy GC make a good inspector? My vote is no. So, if I am right, then the advantage of an inspector with a GC background is only an edge if the guy/gal was a good GC.

Most good GCs either hire qualified subs or learned on the job. I still contend that an inspector can learn on the job, but through apprenticeship is better protection for the public.

This reminds me that a few years ago, a GC on a large custom home was very annoyed (read p***ed off) at me. As he steps away, he mutters loud enough for everyone to hear, "a home inspector is just a guy who isn't qualified to be a builder".

I tell folks that the nice thing about this business is that I no longer have to figure out how to fix something. All I have to do is point and say "Wrong". For that I receive the medium size bucks and less stress. :o

[CHARLIE VAN FLEET]

LON

GREAT POST

Aaron when you die can i be you. you are so great. please send pictures and an autograph. your so great you even got banned from this forum once. are you nasty to your client at your perfect home inspection, i'll bet if you have a dog, he hides when you come home. sorry Aaron i just tried being you and didn't like it

cvf

[Stephen McSpadden]

I don't usually make posts but this is one I feel strongly about. I am a home inspector. I am also a licensed, professional structural engineer. I have been a design engineer and inspected buildings in all stages of construction for 30+ years. I have been a home inspector for more than half that time. I agree wholeheartedly that most PE's and most GC's are not qualified to be a home inspectors. But here's something really controversial; virtually all home inspectors are not qualified to be doing what they're doing. Regular home inspectors should not be giving an opinion on the structural condition of the houses they inspect but they do. They are not qualified to do so and have not had adequate education to know what they are looking at. As a true professional, too many times I have followed up after a regular home inspector and had the painful task of telling the homeowner that the regular home inspector unfortunately missed some crucial structural items. Just like a layman cannot go around giving medical advice a home inspector that isn't a certified structural engineer should not be giving opinions about the structure of a house. But, they do it all the time. Having a certification from an educational organization is not even close to having a professional license. For a true qualified opinion only a true qualified, licensed professional should be consulted. One can replace a water heater or a furnace or do some plumbing repairs but if a home inspector misses a structural problem there could be a big expensive mess to figure out, frequently in court. The best regular home inspectors I have met will openly tell the client that they are not structural engineers and that it would be best to hire a structural engineer and get a truly qualified opinion.

[John Kogel]

But here's something really controversial; virtually all home inspectors are not qualified to be doing what they're doing. Regular home inspectors should not be giving an opinion on the structural condition of the houses they inspect but they do. Home inspectors are required to identify problems with a structure, and then they should call for an engineer to confirm that suspicion.
If the home inspector does not recognize a structural problem, then he is incompetent.
What you are saying is that a home inspector needs to have training in engineering to make that initial call. If he had that training, then why would we need you to come in at all? :D
Most of us will get your point and we appreciate your post. Please don't go away mad when some responders get snarky. My point is, engineers are over-qualified and would have to charge more than the clients will pay.
Home inspectors need to be skilled to some degree, and that comes best from hands-on training, with a mentor, or years in the field in a related trade. But they also need schooling in the basics of structure for those times when they see something unfamiliar.

[Aaron Miller]

virtually all home inspectors are not qualified to be doing what they're doing. Regular home inspectors should not be giving an opinion on the structural condition of the houses they inspect but they do. They are not qualified to do so and have not had adequate education to know what they are looking at.

Another PE pretending that his ilk are the only ones with span tables and calculators? You'd better check the Texas SOP which REQUIRES that an opinion be rendered by an HI on - guess what? - the performance of PT slab-on-ground (and all other) foundations on expansive (and every other kind of) soil, and virtually every other structural component in a home.

While I am in agreement with your take that most inspectors are under-endowed for this sort of activity, many are not. I recognize a number of them on this forum by their posts. PEs do not have a corner on the intelligence market, they only think they do.

There are GCs I know that are better autodidactic engineers than the men with the degrees. While neither they nor I would ever claim to have an engineering degree, we understand enough of physics and the pertinent math, and have applied them with boots-on-the-ground experience for long enough, to see the issues as they are.

Once identified, even though I can usually deduce what sort of remedial measures may be needed to correct a serious structural defect I always defer to a PE both the decision as to the remedial options and the liability which accrues.:D

[Aaron Miller]

Regulation at some level makes sense, but even with regulation, enforcement is the only way to give regulation teeth. So, it falls on the code enforcers to make these shabby GCs tow the line. Shame on them if they are allowing constant and consistent crummy work

The code enforcement milieu here is what one might expect in a state that does not even consider builder oversight. The municipal guys are under-paid and overworked. More than a few are under-educated. Yet another result of living the myth that excellent production and wealth are the product of big business run amuck. What trickles down is inefficiency that translates to building tomorrow's ghettos.

This is a clear case for out-sourcing the profession to countries with intelligent life forms, but in an instance where it will not work. So, what the local large municipalities have done - as a budget-cutting measure, and to increase performance (sure) - is to out-source the building inspection departments to "independent" companies comprised of half-ass engineers and their lackeys who are in the pockets of the builders. Corporate America at its finest.


I've concluded that licensing for GC's makes little difference in quality of work. Licensing just tests how well someone can take the test, even if it is a hard test.

Skip the multiple-choice show-and-tell and get to the criminal background investigations, proof of liquidity, bankruptcy histories, proof of insurance, et al. None of this is required for GCs here. Nothing is required of them, just like builders. My cat could hold himself forth as either, within the law.


Most good GCs either hire qualified subs or learned on the job.


Could you send some our way? The story here is that only electricians, plumbers and HVAC techs require licences. All others are plucked from the labor pool milling around in the Fiesta grocery store parking lot, put into an on-the-job training program, and promoted by chance. Each time the crew across the street moves to more lucrative pastures or back home where the honkies don't deride them constantly, one of these guys goes across the street and becomes the lead man of a crew that he picks up at Fiesta. Thus the endless cycle of Texas building without regulation.

I'm for more regulation.

[Ray Thornburg]

I'm actually for less regulation and more freedom. I've seen time and time again how "higher authority" has put small business out of business. Most of the time this is done to limit competition therefore benefiting a select group. Killing off your competition might seem like it will benefit the incumbent at first but it is repressive especially when taken to the extreme. This is bad for everyone. As for GC's doing inspections. A home inspection is just your opinion of the condition of the home based on your qualifications. Who's to say what someone else knows. Why would his experience and opinions be discounted. Sure everyone is going to make a few mistakes and the conscientious learn from them. As I get older I learn how important it is to let people make their own mistakes. Depriving them of this essential growth process is a little selfish and shortsighted. Total control and qualifying is an illusion. It took you twenty years so it'll probably take other people time too and that's natural. Just my opinion....

[Aaron Miller]

A home inspection is just your opinion of the condition of the home based on your qualifications.

Actually, it is not. It is an inspector juxtaposing existing standards, be they building codes or performance standards, with what he sees. This is an objective comparison between what should be and what is. It has nothing to do with one's personal opinion, when performed correctly.

[Jerry Peck]

I'm actually for less regulation and more freedom.

I'm actually for more regulation and the more freedom that it creates.

The freedom that less regulation creates is that a person without ANY qualifications, knowledge, etc., are allowed to do things which can injure (physically and financially) those for whom that unlicensed person is doing 'whatever' for, with enough failures and lawsuits, those people eventually fall by the wayside.

The freedom that more regulation creates is that a person who at least proves they are competent enough to pass a test and has some level of experience behind them are allowed to do the things they have want to do, and with at least that minimum level of tested knowledge and experience the likelihood of doing things so poorly, so wrong, to totally screwed up that one is sued is reduced ... not eliminated, but reduced - there are people who will still do the work as unlicensed persons, but then the authorizing agent/department for that licensing has the opportunity (whether they exercise that opportunity or not is something else entirely) to punish the unlicensed offenders.

I know some will disagree with the above.

I saw a bumper sticker this morning which said "The first rule of gun safety is to not piss me off.", my thought when I read that was "The first rule of gun safety is to shoot first, piss you off afterward, that way you can't shoot me for pissing you off." :) There are a lot of idiots who have idiotic bumper stickers that piss me off, guess I should shoot them first? :D

[John Kogel]

how important it is to let people make their own mistakes. Depriving them of this essential growth process is a little selfish and shortsighted. Total control and qualifying is an illusion. It took you twenty years so it'll probably take other people time too and that's natural. Just my opinion....That's really noble of you, Ray. So if your son or daughter wants to buy a house, it's ok if the inspector they hire is a clueless poser? How many mistakes is he allowed, or is there no limit? :confused:

[Ray Thornburg]

most HI contracts have the word opinion in there somewhere Mr. Miller.....just saying.....everything people believe is based on what they think they know. Withhold critical facts and the analysis is different......therefore in my opinion your analysis is in itself an opinion. Unless you're all knowing then my hat's off to you.

[Aaron Miller]

most HI contracts have the word opinion in there somewhere Mr. Miller.....just saying.....everything people believe is based on what they think they know. Withhold critical facts and the analysis is different......therefore in my opinion your analysis is in itself an opinion. Unless you're all knowing then my hat's off to you.

From this morning's inspection. This is wrong. Fact or opinion?:D

[Lon Henderson]

I'm actually for more regulation and the more freedom that it creates.
I know some will disagree with the above.

This is one of those places where we may have to agree to disagree. I am not an anarchist and certainly think that some regulation is needed in our business, As you guys know, I am in a state with zero regulation for home inspectors. But I hate over regulation. And there lies the rub because everyone of us will disagree where the line between adequate and too much regulation is drawn.

But I cannot make that argument of more regulation leads to more freedom work for me. I reread your position several times and I think we will have to agree to disagree.

[Ray Thornburg]

That's really noble of you, Ray. So if your son or daughter wants to buy a house, it's ok if the inspector they hire is a clueless poser? How many mistakes is he allowed, or is there no limit? :confused:
I knew I'd get in trouble with this......but the question is weather a general contractor should be allowed to inspect homes. I have faith in my children and I respect their judgement....If they want to pay someone else to do what I would do for free then that is their choice. They take personal responsibility the same as I do for my decisions. That is why they love me and I love them.

[Ray Thornburg]

From this morning's inspection. This is wrong. Fact or opinion?:D
I wouldn't use the word wrong....."rather not in compliance with current code for boring and notching,,,,,can be fixed in a variety of different ways that satisfy the intent of current regulations" Seems to be a non load bearing wall....is that right?

[Aaron Miller]

I wouldn't use the word wrong....."rather not in compliance with current code for boring and notching,,,,,can be fixed in a variety of different ways that satisfy the intent of current regulations" Seems to be a non load bearing wall....is that right?

Answer the question. Fact or opinion?

[Ray Thornburg]

Answer the question. Fact or opinion?
Mr. Miller......I hope you don't think I'm going to subject myself to a cross examination......I respectfully submit my opinions to enhance our discussion only.

[Aaron Miller]

Mr. Miller......I hope you don't think I'm going to subject myself to a cross examination......I respectfully submit my opinions to enhance our discussion only.

Why, bless your heart, Ray. I simply meant to say, that if we are to have an intelligent discussion we must adhere to a certain decorum. When asked a question it is usually acceptable and polite to answer it as directly as possible and not to tergiversate, or equivocate.

Evasive maneuvering, while all the rage on this forum, is for those suffering from a dearth of answers. And, it is just downright rude.:D

[Bruce Booher]

Wow, tough crowd. I am a GC, went on to get my electrical contractors, and plumbing contractors lincenses. Then got a degree at the comunity colledge in Building Inspection Technology and another degree in Construction Supervision and Inspection. Probably still not enough, so I am licensed by the ICC as a Residental Combination Inspector. Add to that 40 years hands-on work with historic restoration as well as new construction. And my real name is Bruce Booher. And I do home inspections.
Go ahead, fire away.

[Aaron Miller]

Wow, tough crowd. I am a GC, went on to get my electrical contractors, and plumbing contractors lincenses. Then got a degree at the comunity colledge in Building Inspection Technology and another degree in Construction Supervision and Inspection. Probably still not enough, so I am licensed by the ICC as a Residental Combination Inspector. Add to that 40 years hands-on work with historic restoration as well as new construction. And my real name is Bruce Booher. And I do home inspections.
Go ahead, fire away.

You'll fit right in here, but the spell check will make you look better . . . I can't write without it . . .;)

[Stephen G]

Wow, tough crowd. I am a GC, went on to get my electrical contractors, and plumbing contractors lincenses. Then got a degree at the comunity colledge in Building Inspection Technology and another degree in Construction Supervision and Inspection. Probably still not enough, so I am licensed by the ICC as a Residental Combination Inspector. Add to that 40 years hands-on work with historic restoration as well as new construction. And my real name is Bruce Booher. And I do home inspections.
Go ahead, fire away.

I'm Canadian, so forgive me,,,but,, you got a degree from a community college? You spent four years at community college? Our schooling may differ...:cool:

[Lon Henderson]

Welcome Bruce,

Too often threads will deteriorate into some personal shots. There are a lot of opinionated "A" type personalities here. But there is a lot of knowledge in this forum and if you filter the personal cr*p, you may pick up some valuable bits of information.
And with your credentials, you can probably offer some good info.

For instance, I had never seen the word "tergiversate" until this thread....:p

[John Kogel]

Welcome Bruce,

Too often threads will deteriorate into some personal shots. There are a lot of opinionated "A" type personalities here. But there is a lot of knowledge in this forum and if you filter the personal cr*p, you may pick up some valuable bits of information.
And with your credentials, you can probably offer some good info.

For instance, I had never seen the word "tergiversate" until this thread....:pen.wiktionary.org/wiki/tergiversate
2012-08-29 · To evade, to equivocate using subterfuge; to deliberately obfuscate. 1999, Philip McCutchan and Werner Levi, The Hoof, ISBN 0816600864, page 18 : The ...


There is truly no excuse for ignorance, is there?
Anybody can learn, on their own, sitting in front of a computer, anything and everything there is to know about home inspection. No need for college. The college provides the certificate, which is the proof you might need to obtain the license. That is all.

Ray, I wasn't insulting the intelligence of your kids, just using them as an example. People have to be able to rely on the home inspector to give them an accurate picture of the house. No mistakes are allowed.

[Bruce Booher]

Thanks for the welcome, it feels a little less frightening now. This site shows a spelling icon, but my old system says it isn't enabled on my computer. Unlike my favorite 80 year old block plane, my 2 year old computer is junk.
Stephen G, our community college offers an "associate of arts degree" when you complete their program. That is different than a 4 year degree, which I also received back in the '70's from California State University with a "bachelors of arts degree" in economics.