When to pull the "not readily accessible" card

[Jack Feldmann]

There has been some discussion about getting access to inspect something, and many just pull the "can't get to it, so I'm not inspecting it" card, and move on. Others, will do just about anything to get access.

Of course most Standards of Practice define what is Readily Accessible, and Readily Openable Access Panel. They also go on to allow inspectors to use the "cant get to it, so I'm not inspecting it" card, by putting in several clauses where an inspector is "NOT required" to do something, for safety or other reasons.

Inspectors are also NOT required to move personal property, etc.

Where do we draw the line? Are we doing our clients a disservice by NOT inspecting something because it was "too hard" to get to? While we may be within our "rights", are we doing the right thing?

I feel I owe it to my client to do the most thorough job I can. Personally, I hate to make more than one trip to a house. I will do just about anything to get the inspection done in one trip.

If the electrical panel or crawlspace door has a padlock on it, I will call the listing agent and ask them to get in touch with the property owner and see if there is a key somewhere in the house. If they can not get in contact with the seller, I ask permission (from the listing agent) to cut the lock. In 23 years on inspecting, I have never had a seller or listing agent refuse to let me cut the lock. Each and every time, I offer to replace the padlock. Most of the time they tell me not to bother.

I have gone to crawlspaces and found the access panel screwed in place. I have always just removed the screws, and replace them when I was done. According to my SOP, I could have disclaimed getting into the crawlspace, however I would have shortchanged my client by not inspecting one of the most important components of the house.

Attic access is frequently blocked by owners belongings in a closet. If the seller is there, I ask them to move their stuff so I can get access. If they are not there, but a Realtor is, I ask the Realtor to give me a hand moving stuff. If I am by myself, I will make the determination if I want to move their stuff or not (it depends on what is stored, and the potential risk for damage/liability). Frankly, I hate doing this!

That said, in the 23 years I have been inspecting, I have had one seller file a claim with BBB saying I damaged her clothes. I "settled" the claim with a check for $8.00 to cover cleaning costs. I have also had two or three closet rods fall off the wall when I set my ladder up. Once my ladder slipped on the hardwood floor and shot back and went into the drywall on the opposite wall of the hallway. The seller was home and said he was patching drywall anyway and not to worry about it.

Stuff stored in bath tubs....... if its not too much, I move it to test. If there is a huge amount, I take photos, and leave it in place. I ALWAYS lift the bath mat, after I found a hole in the bottom of a tub. Do you move throw rugs around toilets?

I try to not touch furniture, and if I do have to move a chair or something small, I try to place it back into the same dents in the carpet.

Boxes stored in from of HVAC units is garages or attics? Will you typically moved them? Where do you draw the line?
How about stuff stored at the bottom of the attic access ladder in a garage?
Or the lawnmower or trash cans left in place in front of the crawlspace door, or side door to a garage?

I'm just curious on other's take on this issue.

[Bruce Ramsey]

It depends.

If it is just a box or two to access the electrical panel, water heater, etc., then I usually move them. Try to put them back in the same place when done to prevent seller call backs.

I have taken the screws out of hinges to access crawlspaces that were padlocked.

Usually my clients are in attendance, and they see first hand just how much stuff needs to be moved to access the equipment. Sometimes they will offer to shuffle stuff around to grant access.

On warranty inspections I ask the owner to move stuff.

I have shoved a chair or couch out from a wall to access receptacles, returns, etc. Similarly I try to return them to the dents in the carpet. Usually depends on how many other receptacles are accessible to test and how heavy the furniture is.

I have cut wallpaper and chipped away joint compound from electrical panels. Just too many issues to overlook. Most times the buyer is going to strip the ugly wallpaper and paint over the hideous paint color anyway.

But there are times I just shrug at the amount of stuff or difficulty and disclaim in the report. It depends on how I feel about the inspection. Don't do that often but there are times.

[John Kogel]

I bring enough tools to get in, but I haven't cut a lock yet. We don't see outdoor electrical panels here, just an occasional padlock on a shed or garage. I shoot a few pics thru a window and move on in that case. Often the seller has storage he doesn't want us to see or touch, fine, I'll concentrate on the house anyway. Other than that, I will get to the important inspection items one way or another. Since I'm a lightweight, under 170 lbs, I can climb over, like the junk in this garage blocking access to an electrical panel. I didn't move it, just stepped carefully over it. :D

Oh yeah, the tub full of stuffy toys, books, clothes and shoes? I just go find a bucket or a bowl and run water into that.

Do I put stuff back the way I found it? Sometimes. If I think the people will even care or notice. For animals, why bother? I'll add a few pics for samples of the junk we see every other day. Sheesh, people have no concept of what we have to do.

[Michael Thomas]

Agents exist to move stuff.

I tell em' it will make the inspection go faster.

[Aaron Miller]

I do not move the seller's belongings if they can be construed as breakable. Anything can be broken. It is, as per my inspection agreement, the responsibility of the seller and his agent and the buyer and his agent to have all systems readily accessible at the time of the inspection.

If it is not readily accessible it gets disclaimed. I am an inspector and not a moving company. If you start moving the seller's personal belongings you will be wishing you had added him to your insurance policy like another thread on this forum suggests.

I refer to it as the maid syndrome. If it is found to be broken or missing - the maid must've done it. If you move their stuff around you are that maid.

Like MT said: Agents (or their seller or buyer delegates) exist to move stuff.

[Jack Feldmann]

Many times I am at the inspection by myself.

Pet peeve...people that put all that crap on the window ledge of the kitchen window, or the back of the range (can't test the anti-tilt bracket).

So Aaron, you won't move a trash can in front of a door, or electrical panel? Or the lawnmower in front of the HVAC unit in the garage?

[Raymond Wand]

I make it a habit of telling whoever books the inspection that I want clear access to the electrical panel, and furnace and attic and the reasons why.

If there is any shelving in the way of accessing attic I want the shelving and contents removed.

[Aaron Miller]

So Aaron, you won't move a trash can in front of a door, or electrical panel? Or the lawnmower in front of the HVAC unit in the garage?

I do not move anything that does not belong to me.

[Jack Feldmann]

Maybe people leave more crap around here in TN. :-)

[Aaron Miller]

I do not move anything that does not belong to me.

No. There are some real junk collectors here as well. But, in answer to the OP, when they play the junk-it-up card I play the inaccessible card. They can always move the junk and pay me to return.:D

[John Kogel]

No. There are some real junk collectors here as well. But, in answer to the OP, when they play the junk-it-up card I play the inaccessible card. They can always move the junk and pay me to return.Easy to be tough guy to the sellers, but your clients the buyers need the info now so they can close the deal. I don't go back, and that is why I will simply shove the crap aside if needed. Or cover it all with my big sheet and jam my ladder in on top of it. :cool:

[Aaron Miller]

Easy to be tough guy to the sellers, but your clients the buyers need the info now so they can close the deal. I don't go back, and that is why I will simply shove the crap aside if needed. Or cover it all with my big sheet and jam my ladder in on top of it. :cool:

My clients are fully-informed at least a day or two in advance of the inspection as to what it is that the inspection covers, what it does not cover, what their responsibilities are, what the seller's responsibilities are, and what the agents are responsible for. They then sign their names to a document affirming that they understand these things.

Since you appear to be a super hero able to leap tall mounds of crap in a single bound, how would you deal with these actual scenarios?

(1) Pull-down stair to garage attic is obstructed by a stacked hydraulic wrack containing two vintage Ferraris, each worth more than my house and bank account holdings. Lean your ladder against the top Ferrari and climb across it or disclaim it?

(2) Estate sale preparations have been made for the day after the inspection. The house is completely filled with crap. Every square inch of floor space is covered other than enough room for shoppers to sidle through. Even the windowsills are covered. There is no access to anything other than the roof and exterior. Toss it all or disclaim it?

(3) There are two muzzled German shepherd dogs loose in the house. There is a sign on the door which says: "Mr. Inspector, the dogs are friendly. Their names are Snick and Snack." The dogs are growling and jumping in my direction. Run, or carry on?

(4) The house is occupied by a hoarder. Burn it or inspect it?

(5) The two antique dealer gentlemen seller's have obviously spent about $2.3 million dollars on furnishing every square inch of usable space with items of great beauty and value. Only a midget could navigate without breaking something costing more than my van is worth. Should I disclaim or start swinging in ever-widening arcs?

Where's my kryptonite?:D

[John Kogel]

I don't know, just do what you think is best. :)
No, I wouldn't climb over the Ferraris or the Harley either.

[Jack Feldmann]

Aaron,
Most of your examples would have me not inspecting some things. The dogs are a hot spot for me since I was bit last year. Hoarder's house or not, I would never burn it. I may not inspect it, but I would't burn it.

However, I will slide a trash can or lawnmower out of the way, or move the odd box or two. Each time I elected to move someone else's property, I have tried to assess my risk factor.

I have climbed up into a boat to get into an attic, but declined to get anywhere near the car blocking access to the ladder. Its a judgement call for me.

I admire your ability to stick to your guns and hold the hard line. However, I have to wonder what your client's might think when you say you couldn't get into a crawlspace because a lawnmower was blocking the access, and no one was there to move it for you. I know I would have a hard time explaining it (in my area).

[Aaron Miller]

I admire your ability to stick to your guns and hold the hard line. However, I have to wonder what your client's might think when you say you couldn't get into a crawlspace because a lawnmower was blocking the access, and no one was there to move it for you. I know I would have a hard time explaining it (in my area).

I explain such things preemptively in my inspection agreement which is signed a minimum of 24 hours in advance of the inspection appointment. Everyone is aware of whose responsibility it is to make things accessible for me prior to that time. My policies are in alignment with the state and ASHI SOP. They are also in place to protect the seller's property and to reduce my and my client's liability should something become damaged due to my moving it.

Have any of you ever been on an inspection and moved a piece of furniture to get to a receptacle or window just to have the furniture fall to pieces? Ever tried to move a drapery valance just a bit to enable you to open the plantation shutters when the valance came tumbling down, and then the plantation shutter falls to pieces on the floor? Ever moved those boxes from the bottom of a closet and then hear momma's china and crystal breaking within? Hefted the loaded metal shelving from in front of the electrical distribution panelboard and have it fall on you? Pushed a motorcycle out of the way and the wheel falls off? I can go on like this forever.

So Jack, you have your company policies and I have mine. Yours may be unnecessarily exposing you and your clients to liability, while mine are not. Mine are avoiding unnecessary liability and training future generations of home buyers, home sellers, and agents in proper inspection etiquette.;)

[Duane Nelson]

A couple of years ago: House is vacant, sellers have moved except for the closet with access to the crawl. It is FILLED with every size and shape of boxes waiting to be loaded. Took several photos showing labels and location. There is no such thing as an inaccessible crawlspace.
Jack: One time I removed the boat cover and set the ladder inside to get into an attic.

ddn

[Aaron Miller]

There is no such thing as an inaccessible crawlspace.

Either you are relatively new to the profession or you don't do much work. I have encountered multiple crawl spaces that were inaccessible, just like everyone else. Just a few of the reasons for inaccessibility encountered have been:

1. Venomous snakes.
2. Standing water.
3. Standing water with electrical cable lying on the ground.
4. Hornets.
5. Raccoon with babies.
6. No access opening.
7. Vertical clearance of less than 12".
8. Space filled with ducts and gas piping.
9. Ground in space covered in sewage from wholesale broken DWV piping.
10. Skunks.

So then, jump into that phone booth and bust out in that super hero costume. We'll call 911 and order you a six pack of EMTs.:cool:

[Billy Stephens]

11. Fire Ants
12. Pitt bull
13. Gas Odor
14. Debris,Broken Glass, Concrete Chunks
15. Rotten, Rotting Carcass

[Dom D'Agostino]

So Aaron, if you open a kitchen sink-base cabinet and discover a refuse container blocking your view of the plumbing, you just say "Oh Well, not my job" ?

I'm sure you move some things, some of the time, even if you don't admit it.

[Aaron Miller]

even if you don't admit it.:eek:

If, by that, you mean am I exaggerating for effect like the drolls who claim that NOTHING can prevent them from their appointed rounds, then no.

[CHARLIE VAN FLEET]

aaron

was there an answer there--move trash can

cvf

[Jack Feldmann]

Aaron,
I'm curious about #8. Space filled with ducts and gas piping.
We have a lot of package units, so the return and supply ducts are in the crawlspace. There are also gas lines in crawlspaces.

Do you not enter a crawlspace if there are ducts and gas piping in there?

[Greg Filian]

Aaron,
I'm curious about #8. Space filled with ducts and gas piping.
We have a lot of package units, so the return and supply ducts are in the crawlspace. There are also gas lines in crawlspaces.

Do you not enter a crawlspace if there are ducts and gas piping in there?

I would enter the crawl space but not climb over the ducts, usually they are already mashed from other people crawling over them, I won't make them worse. I'm not in the business of damaging things.

My policy on moving things is if it looks like the resident moves the items all the time, trash cans, hanging clothes, lawn mowers, etc. I'll move them. If items are never or nearly ever moved, beds couches dressers, parked car, storage in a closet, I don't move them and disclose it. I have a standard disclosure for this.

Lets face it, sometimes you just can't get to it. No inspection fee is worth me paying for damage or hurting myself. If there are clothes in the wash machine or dryer and no one there to move them I don't run the appliances or touch the clothes. Have you ever seen an insensed woman after you touched her undies? Once I shrunk a "favorite" piece of clothing and had to pay for it. I've done this long enough to have learned from mistakes I've made and then incorporate them into my business. A beautiful thing is a manufactured home with no possessions inside or out and the carpet removed, but it rarely happens.

Expert Mobile & Manufactured Home Inspections O.C. & San Diego Co. (http://www.MobileHomeInspectors.com)

[Dub Smith]

My pet peeve is the Electric Service Panel that is stuck in a cramped closet with an electric heating unit crammed in front of it leaving just enough room to open the panel door, let alone remove the dead front. Do I want to remove the dead front and inspect the panel? Sure! Do I want to wedge myself in a cramped space and try removing a metal dead front around a 240 volt service with little to no elbow room? I don't think so. I wasn't born with frizzy hair... don't want to start now.:rolleyes:

[John Kogel]

#16 Roosters on the countertop :mad:

[JB Thompson]

No inspection fee is worth me paying for damage or hurting myself.

That, to me, sums it up the best. I admit that I will occasionally move the odd mower or trash can and that by doing so I am potentially increasing risk.

I open windows and yet I've had windows come off of tracks or become disconnected from the lifting mechanism. Fortunately, I've been able to repair every time.

[Aaron Miller]

Aaron,
I'm curious about #8. Space filled with ducts and gas piping.
We have a lot of package units, so the return and supply ducts are in the crawlspace. There are also gas lines in crawlspaces.

Do you not enter a crawlspace if there are ducts and gas piping in there?

In the real world, where I live, an 18" tall crawl space filled with 16" ducts and assorted gas and water pipes does not usually allow for the entrance of any entity larger than a cat. Perhaps in your world, Zombo.com, the ducts are in the fourth dimension and do not pose an obstacle?:rolleyes:

[Aaron Miller]

I would enter the crawl space but not climb over the ducts, usually they are already mashed from other people crawling over them, I won't make them worse. I'm not in the business of damaging things.

My policy on moving things is if it looks like the resident moves the items all the time, trash cans, hanging clothes, lawn mowers, etc. I'll move them. If items are never or nearly ever moved, beds couches dressers, parked car, storage in a closet, I don't move them and disclose it. I have a standard disclosure for this.

Lets face it, sometimes you just can't get to it. No inspection fee is worth me paying for damage or hurting myself. If there are clothes in the wash machine or dryer and no one there to move them I don't run the appliances or touch the clothes. Have you ever seen an insensed woman after you touched her undies? Once I shrunk a "favorite" piece of clothing and had to pay for it. I've done this long enough to have learned from mistakes I've made and then incorporate them into my business. A beautiful thing is a manufactured home with no possessions inside or out and the carpet removed, but it rarely happens.

Expert Mobile & Manufactured Home Inspections O.C. & San Diego Co. (http://www.MobileHomeInspectors.com)

Finally, an honest man comes forward . . .:eek:

[Duane Nelson]

[QUOTE=Aaron Miller;206895]Either you are relatively new to the profession or you don't do much work.

I probably haven't been around as long as you, but I have been in business 12 years this fall. 7 inspections last week qualifies as doing at least some work. Tuesday I used an old coal chute to get into a crawl.
Your list of hazards are good reasons to not stay long - not reasons to avoid looking in and see what is there.

ddn

[Aaron Miller]

Your list of hazards are good reasons to not stay long - not reasons to avoid looking in and see what is there.

Mum's the word says my Black Cat.

[Billy Stephens]

And your utter lack of reasoning is a good reason not to continue along these lines. Ta Ta.

Aaron,

Do you still have the Animated Avatar of The Nice Kitty? :D
.

[Aaron Miller]

Do you still have the Animated Avatar of The Nice Kitty? :D.

I do. But I can't find it!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[John Kogel]

This one's for rent, PM me. :)

[Billy Stephens]

I do. But I can't find it!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
.
Post # 34 http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/31966-shocking-surprise.html
.

[Jack Feldmann]

Aaron,
Most of the crawlspaces I get into are higher than 18". Many times the ducts do obstruct access to half of the house because of limited access around the ducts. But, many times, a person can crawl under the ducts and access the other half of the foundation. Some times, I have to crawl all the way to the end, and go around the main trunk line, then crawl all the way back.

Yes we have to crawl over and under waste pipes. Gas and water pipes are common in my area (we do have indoor plumbing for the most part), but rarely pose a access problem.

Don't get me wrong, we have many houses where I can't get everywhere I would like to.

Also, please don't take my answers and questions as a jab that I consider your position wrong. I applaud your ability to hold your position and not have bounce back from clients. All I'm saying is it would be a very tough sell in my market. Just today, I had to move a trash can to get to the electrical panel. Since there wasn't a Realtor present, my single mother client would have laughed me out of the County had I told her I couldn't /wouldn't move the trash can on wheels two feet. More power to you that you can get away with it!

[John Kogel]

To reach one screw in the E panel today, I would have had to pull nails. In Canada, the SEC's are kept in a separate section of the panel.

Aaron, I took a cue from you, left the crowbar in the truck and simply disclaimed it. :D

[Aaron Miller]

Most of the crawlspaces I get into are higher than 18".
Fully 60% of them here are not. Some in the older parts of town are not 6". Would that stop you, or would you don your Mole Man costume and begin to burrow?:)


Many times the ducts do obstruct access to half of the house because of limited access around the ducts. But, many times, a person can crawl under the ducts and access the other half of the foundation. Some times, I have to crawl all the way to the end, and go around the main trunk line, then crawl all the way back.
Same here, but most of the time the duct man was more interested in air distribution and ease of installation than in future ingress.


Don't get me wrong, we have many houses where I can't get everywhere I would like to.
Another honest man . . . that makes two so far, not counting me.


Also, please don't take my answers and questions as a jab that I consider your position wrong.
I don't. My beef is with those who claim to inspect everything no matter the circumstances. That is just hogwash.


I applaud your ability to hold your position and not have bounce back from clients. All I'm saying is it would be a very tough sell in my market.
I can't speak to your market peculiarities. I can only assume that you are dealing with adult humans. Most adult humans, given time, effort, can be reasoned with.


Just today, I had to move a trash can to get to the electrical panel.
Yes, and I had to move a bowl of wax fruit on the kitchen counter under which resided an envelope containing my check . . .

[Jack Feldmann]

Here are a few that I couldn't go as far as I would have liked to.

[Isaac Peck]

Hi guys,

I did a story on this issue, with several of the commenters here being quoted. I also got a quote from an AHIT Instructor, as well as Nick Gromiko, founder of InterNACHI.

It actually is our cover story for our new edition! Some of you might find it interesting, you can check it out here: Working RE Home Inspector Edition/Spring 2013 (http://issuu.com/workingre/docs/homeinspector-news-issue-2?mode=window)

[Aaron Miller]

Hi guys,

I did a story on this issue, with several of the commenters here being quoted. I also got a quote from an AHIT Instructor, as well as Nick Gromiko, founder of InterNACHI.

It actually is our cover story for our new edition! Some of you might find it interesting, you can check it out here: Working RE Home Inspector Edition/Spring 2013 (http://issuu.com/workingre/docs/homeinspector-news-issue-2?mode=window)

Isaac:

Good job!

[Raymond Wand]

A worthy read. Keep up the good work!

[Jack Feldmann]

Good job!

[John Ghent]

Hi guys,

I did a story on this issue, with several of the commenters here being quoted. I also got a quote from an AHIT Instructor, as well as Nick Gromiko, founder of InterNACHI.

It actually is our cover story for our new edition! Some of you might find it interesting, you can check it out here: Working RE Home Inspector Edition/Spring 2013 (http://issuu.com/workingre/docs/homeinspector-news-issue-2?mode=window)

It was an OK article. But does this mean that any conversation on this forum can be "quoted" by you in future articles? Is there a "fact checking" process somewhere between writing comments on this forum and you publishing it for the world to see? Just curious.

[Darren Miller]

Hi guys,
I also got a quote from an AHIT Instructor, as well as Nick Gromiko, founder of InterNACHI.


Isaac;

I did read the entire magazine and I thought it was very well done.
However, what does a quote from P.T Barnum have to do with home inspections? How many actual HI's has he ever done?
P.T's the guy dragging down the industry