Help....Ground on gas meter

[Anthony Alderman]

Ok, I have always been taught that the panel ground on a gas meter is a big NO NO. I have been seeing it turn up on NEW houses around here. they tell me that there is an UFER ground so it's ok. The on today came straight out of the electric meter box over to the house side of the gas meter. I'm kind of stumped here. Has there been some kind of NEC change or is someone ( besides me ) off their rocker. I'm trying to get the folks "Downtown" to give me a defiant on it but it's Friday....oh well. Thanks for any advice and info.
Tony

[Richard Moore]

You can't use underground gas piping as the grounding electrode, but you do want the house gas piping bonded to the grounding system. Most modern buried gas supply piping is now plastic 2 or 3 feet below the ground at the meter anyway. It sounds like you are looking at a bonding wire rather than a GEC. Doesn't make much difference if that is inside at the water heater or at the exterior as long as it's on the house side of the meter. However, it does sound kind of wierd that it would be coming from the "meter box" unless that is a combo meter/service panel.

[Matthew Skowron]

This is from the 2005 NEC Analysis of Changes book I got from my CEU class. I hope this helps a bit it dosent state gas piping but may shead a bit of light in a diffrent way.

If the PDF didnt post ill retry it


matt

[Matthew Skowron]

GERRR i hope this works this time :cool:

[Jim Luttrall]

Tony, you cannot use the gas line as a grounding electrode.
But the gas line must be bonded along with other piping systems in the house. The gas line is not intended to be an electrode in this case. The water pipe, driven ground rod, or UFER is intended to be the electrode. The bonding strap on the gas line could look the same, just the intended function is different. Now if we can just get those electrons to agree with the rules and intent, everything will be fine.:D
IRC 2003
E3509.1 General. Bonding shall be provided where necessary to ensure electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any fault current likely to be imposed.

E3509.4.1 Grounded service conductor. Equipment shall be bonded to the grounded service conductor in a manner provided in this code.

E3509.7 Bonding other metal piping.
Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, metal piping systems, including gas piping, capable of becoming energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to one of more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper shall be sized ...
... The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is capable of energizing the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

[Bruce Breedlove]

they tell me that there is an UFER ground so it's ok. The on today came straight out of the electric meter box over to the house side of the gas meter.
Tony

An Ufer ground typically uses the reinforcing steel in a reinforced concrete foundation for its ground. The ones I have seen around here all have a piece of rebar stubbed out the top of the foundation wall and the ground wire attached to this rebar (usually in the garage).

One problem with using the gas meter as a ground is many times the buried gas pipe is plastic and does not provide an adequate ground.

[Anthony Alderman]

thanks. I can understand bonding the pipes but it just looked strange as hell with it attached next to the meter and coming straight from the meter box. Another question though.... does the UFER connection to the re bar suppose to have an access panel so it can be observed??

[Anthony Alderman]

Richard
"However, it does sound kind of wierd that it would be coming from the "meter box" unless that is a combo meter/service panel."

Panel in garage

[Bruce Breedlove]

does the UFER connection to the re bar suppose to have an access panel so it can be observed??

The ones I have seen were exposed in unfinished garages. Some are painted red to call attention to them (as in "Don't tamper with or modify this thing.).

JP can address if code requires access to the Ufer connection. I would think that if the connection is covered up (e.g., finishing the garage) it would be prudent to install an access door at the connection. You never know when someone (e.g., home inspector, code inspector, electrician, etc.) does not find a ground rod for the main panel and would like to see the Ufer connection you claim exists.

[wayne soper]

Anthony, If CSST plastic gas lines are present then an extra bonding ground may have been installed to protect from lightning strikes.

[Jerry Peck]

Most ufer grounds are buried in concrete and are not accessible.

Those which are stubbed out as described by others above should be 'accessible' (visible) for inspection.

"CSST plastic gas lines"

The CSST gas lines are not 'plastic', they are corrugated stainless steel, with a 'plastic' outer covering for protection. These must also be bonded.

There is a problem with bonding these CSST gas lines, though, first, you do not want to clamp on the gas line itself, that will simply crush the gas line, second, you do not want to clamp on the hex nut because ... there is no clamp approved for that use.

Catch 22 right there, because, it is 'required' to be bonded, but, there is no current way to 'bond it'.

[wayne soper]

Yes excuse me, Plastic covered is what I meant. Below is a link to what I thought was acceptable but as your saying there is no listed clamp then where do we go from here.

http://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/permitting/pdf/csst.pdf

[Jerry Peck]

From the September-October IAEI News (IAEI stands for the International Association of Electrical Inspectors):

UL Question Corner.

Q. I recently received a corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) manufacturer's technical bulletin in the main I understand was mass mailed to a lot of electrical inspectors all around the country promoting the need to bond CSST due to lightning strikes. Has UL listed any CSST? Does UL list connectors to bond CSST?

A. As of this writing (June 2007), UL has not Listed and CSST or any grounding or bonding fittings intended for use on hexagonal shaped CSST fittings intended to bond CSST. (The answer then continues on about what CSST is and then information on their grounding and bonding listings, etc., but nothing which changes or affects the first sentence I posted here.)

SOooooo ...

Is bonding required for CSST? Yes.

Are there any listed fittings for that bonding? No.

Hmmmm ... what should be done?

*I guess* ;) that "if the CSST *is not* bonded, it should be called out that it is required to be bonded" (that's part's not a 'I guess', that's a statement of fact), and, (this part is the 'I guess' part) if it is bonded with those clamps, then we should advise our clients that, yes, it is bonded, but, not "properly" bonded. "Properly" meaning with a listed bonding fitting. Better to be (gulp :o , I hate to say something like this, and there are VERY FEW TIMES this would apply, but, gulp :eek: ) ... better to be 'bonded "improperly" than to not be bonded at all'. Then, of course, explain why it is not "proper" - because there is no fitting listed for that use.

[Gunnar Alquist]

Anthony,

Included are two photos. The first is of a gas meter. At the far right of the meter, on the house side, is the bonding clamp. The second pic is a close-up of the bonding clamp.

Hope this helps.

[bruce m graham III]

It would bond better without the paint.:)

[wayne soper]

Thanks for the info Jerry. That will certainly add 15 minutes of confused client stares.

[Anthony Alderman]

Thanks Gunnar for the photos. That is exactly what we are seeing on the 2007 houses with gas hot water heaters. Now I know why.. Thanks all of you for the info. Your the best

Tony

[Fred Herndon]

This is from the Gastite CSST installation manual.

Gastite® CSST installed inside or attached to a building or structure
shall be electrically continuous and direct bonded to an effective
ground-fault current path. The gas piping system shall be considered
to be direct bonded when installed in accordance with the following:
The piping is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor (where of sufficient size) or to one or more of the grounding electrodes used. A single bond shall be made at or near the service entrance of the structure or the gas meter of each individual housing unit within a multi-family structure. The bonding conductor shall be 6 AWG copper wire. Bonding jumpers shall be attached in an approved manner in
accordance with NEC-2005 Article 250.70 and the point of attachment for the bonding jumper shall be accessible. Bonding/grounding clamps listed to UL 467 comply with this requirement. This bond is in addition to any other bonding requirements as specified by local codes.
For attachment to the CSST gas piping system, a single bonding clamp must be attached to either a Gastite® brass fitting, a steel manifold or to any
rigid pipe component. The corrugated stainless steel tubing portion of the gas piping system shall not be used as the point of attachment of the bonding conductor at any location along its length under any circumstances.


Since bonding clamps listed to UL 467 comply, and manufacturer's installation instructions override buiding code, I see no problem. They are properly bonded according to the manufacturer.

[Jerry Peck]

Since bonding clamps listed to UL 467 comply, and manufacturer's installation instructions override buiding code, I see no problem.

The problem is, UL does not have any bonding clamps listed for that use - *PER UL*.

*THAT'S THE PROBLEM.*

[Fred Herndon]

<A. As of this writing (June 2007), UL has not listed and CSST or any grounding or bonding fittings intended for use on hexagonal shaped CSST fittings intended to bond CSST.>

<For attachment to the CSST gas piping system, a single bonding clamp must be attached to either a Gastite® brass fitting, a steel manifold or to any
rigid pipe component.>

Apparently the clamp does not have to attach to the hexagonal brass fitting, for which, as you said, there is no listed clamp. It can be attached to an iron pipe before the CSST begins and still properly bond the system. I assume (dirty word, I know), that the standard clamps are listed for that application.



BTW, how do you get the quotes to come up in a little box like that???

[Jerry Peck]

It can be attached to an iron pipe before the CSST begins and still properly bond the system.

Yes ... IF there is a piece of metal pipe to clamp to.

I was referring to this part of your post (bold and underlining are mine) "For attachment to the CSST gas piping system, a single bonding clamp must be attached to either a Gastite® brass fitting,"


BTW, how do you get the quotes to come up in a little box like that???

Fred,

When you post, click on the 'quote' button at the right hand bottom of the message, or, simply type "["quote"]" to start the quote and "["/quote"]" to end the quote - making sure to remove (not type) the "" I used to set the brackets ( [ ) ( ] ) off, otherwise, you will get what I just type.

[Fred Herndon]

Fred,

When you post, click on the 'quote' button at the right hand bottom of the message, or, simply type "["quote"]" to start the quote and "["/quote"]" to end the quote - making sure to remove (not type) the "" I used to set the brackets ( [ ) ( ] ) off, otherwise, you will get what I just type.

Thanks!