New Construction: Raised end on roof

[Scott Mooleners]

I'm looking at a new construction home, and the roof looks like it is raised a very noticable amount the last roof truss and the exterior framing on the ridge. Upon further inspection on the inside of the roof, there looks to be blocking (2x4s, so it is raised 1.5 inches) on top of the first truss inside the framing. The result is a roof that has a banana shape at the end of the ridge, and is wavy down the side. The other houses in the neighbourhood do not exhibit this trait. Is this something that should be acceptable construction, or is this poor construction and should this be repaired?

[Jim Luttrall]

No it is not acceptable and should be repaired if it is as you describe.
You are aware that you should get a home inspection by a impartial inspector of your choosing before you close, right? I promise this is not the only thing they screwed up, the inspection will more than pay for itself from the saved repair costs, energy savings, etc.

[Scott Mooleners]

Yeah. We have an inspection, this is the only major thing we found. I'll post photos when I get home. Question is how to compell builder to do anything about it as there is no code violation that we can identify..., and it appears to be functionally ok, but is certainly not cosmetically ok. How would something like this even be fixed? Would they have to remove the sheathing and cut down the framing, then replace the roof in that section? My main worry is selling the house 10 years down the road should we want to move..., how buyers would see it.

[Dan Hagman]

If the builder will not fix it, don'y buy it!

[Scott Mooleners]

If the builder will not fix it, don'y buy it!

It is not that simple, I'm afraid..., if you've ever seen a builders contract in my area, they are overwhelmingly not buyer friendly..., basically our only way out would be to lose our large earnest deposit... Any advice to effectively push the issue?

I've attached the photos. Inside the roof, and what it looks like from outside. It is a little hard to see in the picture on the inside, but the roof sheathing slants up, to the outside framing.

Thanks,

-Scott

[John Kogel]

It is not that simple, I'm afraid..., if you've ever seen a builders contract in my area, they are overwhelmingly not buyer friendly..., basically our only way out would be to lose our large earnest deposit... Any advice to effectively push the issue?

I've attached the photos. Inside the roof, and what it looks like from outside. It is a little hard to see in the picture on the inside, but the roof sheathing slants up, to the outside framing.

Thanks,

-ScottIf the builder refuses to repair that mess, you can tell him this - you will walk away and then put a lien against the property for a refund of your deposit. Maybe a letter from a lawyer will help. There is nothing there that can't be fixed. Make it very clear that there will be no more $$$ from you until you are satisfied with the quality.

[Jim Luttrall]

Yes, the builder contracts are onerous but a good lawyer can shoot holes in any contract. At this stage it will cost a couple of thousand at most to fix and much more in legal fees to fight.
Ask to see the plans to see what is specified. A visit to the local code inspector might not be a bad idea. All it would take is a nod from them and the superintendent will have their framers fixing it before the city guy gets down the street.
Of course you could just meet them on site and point to that mess and ask if this is work they are proud of? If they stone wall on this, it may be worth paying a change order to have it torn out and redone correctly rather than loosing your deposit and having to live with it the rest of your days in the house. That would only be a last resort though.

[Scott Mooleners]

Thanks for the help. Y'all have given me a little more confidence. I have a walk through tomorrow to look at current progress, and hopefully I can stand my ground with the builder.

[Dan Hagman]

Jim, really good suggestions! I hope you get this settled Scott.

[Garry Sorrells]

Scott,
You may have some leverage in that if you get into litigation they can not sell the louse to someone else. So it may be possible for you to drag the litigation out for a year or two or more with a crafty attorney, and the builder may not be willing to let that happen.

In a past life as a real estate agent I would use the drag it out scenario to have a seller's agent push for the deposit back when a buyer had cold feet and went into a panic over the purchase and just wanted out.

Then the other consideration is the judge that looks at the pictures and sides with you and against "in a workman like manor/fashion" , meaning it looks like crap but it works.

[Scott Mooleners]

Thanks for additional suggestions. I'll let y'all know how it goes tomorrow!

Does anyone know what fixing this would entail in terms of work? I imagine it would involve removing that part of the roof/sheathing, then shortening the exterior framing, then re-attaching the sheathing/roofing...

Thanks,

-Scott

[Jim Luttrall]

Thanks for additional suggestions. I'll let y'all know how it goes tomorrow!

Does anyone know what fixing this would entail in terms of work? I imagine it would involve removing that part of the roof/sheathing, then shortening the exterior framing, then re-attaching the sheathing/roofing...

Thanks,

-Scott
Too hard to tell from the photos exactly what they did wrong. Basically they need to figure out what they did wrong and redo from that point forward. I can be reasonably sure the roof shingles and decking need to come off but from there the fix is dependent on where they screwed up. My guess is they installed the end truss and an intermediate truss out of sequence then they could not figure out how to make this one fit. They may need to order a new truss. Just make sure they do NOT cut the truss without the truss designer's engineer providing written plan and approval.

[Bruce Low]

Was this done at only one end of the roof, or on both+ end gables?

[Scott Mooleners]

Was this done at only one end of the roof, or on both+ end gables?

Just one end, and it is on a street of similar houses where it is the only one that looks like this.

-Scott

[Bruce Low]

So, no doubt a screw-up by the builder. Make him/her fix it!!!!!!! Stand your ground.

Maybe make a big sign that points (with an arrow) out the BAD WORKMANSHIP. Nobody likes bad publicity. Remember, if it's true it's not slander.

Bruce Low
Bottom Line Home Inspection
Green Bay Home Inspections - Radon Tests - Rental Weatherizations | Bottom Line Home Inspection (http://www.bottomlinehi.com)
The Bottom Line - Through an Engineer's Eyes

[Lon Henderson]

What I see looks like a cosmetic issue. Maybe I am missing something, but it doesn't look like a structural concern. It is a little bizarre.

I would tell the builder to fix it too, but over many years of dealing with builders, I can tell you that if he thinks he has backup buyers waiting in the wings, he will likely say "Sorry, here is your earnest money" or "We can start another home for you."

[Geoffrey Brunn]

I'm a licensed practicing structural engineer. It is potentially a significant structural problem and more than cosmetic, since roof sheathing is designed to lay flat against its supporting framing. This is for wind resistance. I can't say with confidence without seeing it myself, but you should continue to pursue a fix.

Jim's suggestions above are good.

Don't know why they made this one-off mistake, but it definitely doesn't seem right.

After a few years of rain, you'll also have this problem visually highlighted since the rain will form a river along that unintended valley.

Best of luck.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Am I seeing both OSB and plywood panels of unknown rating/size/thickness/spacing mixed being used as decking on the same truss roofing system? Am I seeing field modification for storage-in truss(es) and improper field repair of damaged trusses and missing gable end truss & lookout?

I'd want to be looking at the truss roofing system specifications/drawings/notes the planning documents and examining the installation further beyond what can be seen (but may be suggested by) in the photos.

[John Kogel]

Am I seeing both OSB and plywood panels of unknown rating/size/thickness/spacing mixed being used as decking on the same truss roofing system? Am I seeing field modification for storage-in truss(es) and improper field repair of damaged trusses and missing gable end truss & lookout?

I'd want to be looking at the truss roofing system specifications/drawings/notes the planning documents and examining the installation further beyond what can be seen (but may be suggested by) in the photos.All the decking in the picture is OSB.
The gable end has a truss plate at the peak, and site-built framing, AFAIK.
I see no evidence of cut truss webs.

As a builder, I would look at modifying the gable end from below, and reattaching it all with Simpson straps. Just saying, it could all be done in one afternoon. But one small picture doesn't tell the whole story. It needs a builder onsite to make the call for the best repair.

[Lon Henderson]

I often see the gable end edge "flipped" up slightly due to the way the drip molding was attached or doubling up on the end shingles. It gives the gabled end a bit of a Chinese pagoda look. We live in windy country here and I have never seen a problem caused by doing this.

[Scott Mooleners]

I just had a meeting with the builder this morning, and (I think) they've agreed to look at it and fix it, and they've put it down in writing. The representative we met with this time was much more amenable to our wishes than what we had experienced in the past. We plan to also have a meeting with our county building inspection department to see if there are any possible code issues. It is hard to see from the photo because of the angle the photo was taken, but the sheathing definitely does not sit flat upon the truss. I do not believe that there has been any modification of the trusses, and the framing (aside from the misalignment), appears to look good, in fact this house was framed a lot nicer than a previous house that my wife and I had built. The pictures I posted are more of a macro image of the specific area. When I get home, I'll post the larger pictures of the entire area for those that are curious.

-Scott

[Mark Hagenlock]

Scott,
Your photo appears to be a truss that has been altered. Looks like a cut member below the ridge gusset. For whatever reason a field truss may have been substituted for a gable end truss. Never is a long time, however I've never seen a manufactured truss without a metal gusset at each connection, there appear to be ungussetted connections here. If the contractor misplaced the engineered spec sheet for the trusses delivered to this job, the supplier has copies. These would show design and location for all trusses delivered. As for the inch and a half.....If this is the case, look at the plates on top of the gable end wall. Are there 1 more than on connecting walls? Before placing the gable end trusses( on a house with a flat ceiling), the drywall backer is nailed on to the "side" of the gable end truss. Maybe they nailed the backer on to the bottom. If this is the case drywall backer would have to be fastened to the face of this unintentional plate. If this is the case, it also could mean that the cat walk and diagonal wind bracing are face nailed instead of nailed through.
Mark

[Scott Mooleners]

Scott,
Your photo appears to be a truss that has been altered. Looks like a cut member below the ridge gusset. For whatever reason a field truss may have been substituted for a gable end truss. Never is a long time, however I've never seen a manufactured truss without a metal gusset at each connection, there appear to be ungussetted connections here. If the contractor misplaced the engineered spec sheet for the trusses delivered to this job, the supplier has copies. These would show design and location for all trusses delivered. As for the inch and a half.....If this is the case, look at the plates on top of the gable end wall. Are there 1 more than on connecting walls? Before placing the gable end trusses( on a house with a flat ceiling), the drywall backer is nailed on to the "side" of the gable end truss. Maybe they nailed the backer on to the bottom. If this is the case drywall backer would have to be fastened to the face of this unintentional plate. If this is the case, it also could mean that the cat walk and diagonal wind bracing are face nailed instead of nailed through.
Mark

You're right. I didn't realize the outside wall was an engineered truss. I've attached a picture where you can see more of the truss, and the modification.

-Scott

[Bert de Haan]

Hard to tell from the pictures but it doesn't look like the 2x4 blocking is on top of the trusses but in between the trusses. They did a poor job of it because they don't look like they are flush with the top. The one it the second bay looks lower than the truss and the one in the first bay looks a bit high. They may have made the overhang rafters too long which would tip the ridge up. shouldn't be that hard to fix. Shameful that a builder can call this acceptable though.

[Scott Mooleners]

You're right. I didn't realize the outside wall was an engineered truss. I've attached a picture where you can see more of the truss, and the modification.

-Scott

Actually, scratch that, here's the angle from the side that shows a different story. You can see the original truss intact, with what looks to be 2x6's added.

-Scott

[Stuart Brooks]

What area in Virginia? I do quite a few new home and end-of-warranty inspections. In the Fredericksburg and NOVA areas. Nobody wants to believe you when you tell them leaving it up to the builder and the local code inspectors can be a big mistake.

[Darrell Covington]

The best I can tell from the photos is that the roof trusses are installed and then the gable end was stick framed and the rafter is not on the same plane as the truss rafters, thus the kick up at the gable end. If this is not intentional, it needs demo'd and repaired by a qualified framing contractor, probably not the one that made the mess to begin with.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Hmmm.

[Dan Harris]

Hmmm.

Looks like a pencil line that marks the location of the fixture, from here :)

[Mark Hagenlock]

Scott,
Some modifications are called for by the engineer/supplier-engineer. Based on the last picture you sent, I would say after a certain height, they added, or were required to add lumber to the verticals as strongbacks to strengthen the flat framing against windload. The truss specs I mentioned earlier may even give a fastener schedule for these.
Mark

[Vern Heiler]

Actually, scratch that, here's the angle from the side that shows a different story. You can see the original truss intact, with what looks to be 2x6's added.

-Scott

And the additional 2X6 plate....1 1/2"

[Garry Sorrells]

Scott,
Is it possible that the last (end wall) truss was just made wrong, to tall ??
Resulting in the rise of the roof.

[Lon Henderson]

Scott,
Is it possible that the last (end wall) truss was just made wrong, to tall ??
Resulting in the rise of the roof.
That's what it looks like to me. That is why I called it cosmetic. They modify the jig slightly to make gable trusses and may have mistakenly added an inch or so to the height. I still say, make them fix it, but I still don't see a structural concern with this.

Hard to know just from photos, but seems plausible.

[Vern Heiler]

That's what it looks like to me. That is why I called it cosmetic. They modify the jig slightly to make gable trusses and may have mistakenly added an inch or so to the height. I still say, make them fix it, but I still don't see a structural concern with this.

Hard to know just from photos, but seems plausible.

You can see it in one of the pictures, endwall truss needed 2X6 bracing added, 2X6 plate was added to nail the bottoms of the braces to. Then the endwall with added plate was installed on top of the double plate already on top of the stud wall. Extra 1.5".

[Thom Huggett]

Many State Contractor Licensing Boards include regulations regarding workmanship. I would contact your CSLB and see if they will come out to inspect, or just file a complaint against the contractor's license based on poor workmanship. When I had an issue with a slab poured in my back yard it was not resolved until I filed a complaint with the State. No one likes a blemish on his license.