Generators anyone?

[Terry Griffin]

In our area we have one or two realtors widely stating that home inspectors carry generators so that they can perform inspections so that the realtor doesn't have to get the local power company to turn on the power. Just wondering how many inspectors carry the generators.

[Jim Luttrall]

Nope, those realtors are spreading wishful thinking. Me thinks that you would need a licensed electrician to make proper connections and a truck or trailer mounted unit to provide sufficient power to test the electrical systems and appliances. Ever tried to run a 5 ton HVAC unit on a portable generator?

I know of no reputable home inspectors that provide generators.
There are some of the winterization contractors that "test" stuff for the bank as they secure vacant homes. That is a horse of a totally different color and virtually useless to the home buyer.

[Welmoed Sisson]

We've never heard of such a thing. And we wouldn't do it even if someone asked. The risk just isn't worth it.

[Raymond Wand]

Terry

It would not be safe to entertain such an idea. Connecting the power to furnaces and a/c would be impossible using an extension cord, and it would be foolish to tie into the electrical panel.

Even then you better hope the generator is capable of carrying the motor start up loads and generates clean electricity (i.e. 60 cycles) because it is very easy to blow transformers and circuit boards, and motors.

Further I doubt any insurance provider GL/E&O would cover you in the event of a accident.

[Jim Robinson]

That is hilarious. I'd love to hear a realtor say that to a client. I suppose you are supposed to bring a tanker of water as well to test the plumbing.

[George Hallaron]

Terry,
I can't begin to figure where these realtors you speak of are comming up with such an idea. Maybe it's something your competition has pitched to them in hopes of gaining more refferals. At any rate, I know ms power, coast electric and magnolia energy charge a fee to have the electricity turned on for an inspection and you have to go to the utility company (in some cases) to make the request. From a realtors perspective, if a home inspector claims to be able to perform a "complete" home inspection without the added work for the realtor I could see how a realtor may be excited. But from my perspective, it is not possible to perform a "complete" home inspection (in a timely manner) without having the utilities turned on. Portable generator or not! Jmo

[Speedy Petey]

IMO a H-I would be OUT of his/her mind to backfeed a house with a genset just to do an inspection.
Those realtors are off their nut!

[Bruce Ramsey]

Here are at least two inspectords that claim they bring generators to the inspection.

Foreclosure Inspections Virginia Home Inspections -- Fairfax, Reston, Arlington, Leesburg, Ashburn, and more. (http://www.hiofnva.com/pages/66/294/default.aspx)

Guaranteed Home Inspections REALLY Guarantees The Work (http://ifimissitifixit.com/)

[Jim Luttrall]

After reading one of the guys web sites, it is obvious they have been doing winterizations and use compressed air to check the supply lines, etc. And while it appears they have a higher degree of knowledge and service, in fact they are lulling the buyers with a false sense of security under the assumption that "everything" is tested. Again, it is obvious to anyone with familiarity with construction that they are checking some of the bases but not all. I wonder how many times they have fried an electric water heater by "testing" it without water?
It is NOT a full inspection.
It is marketing and hype.

[George Hallaron]

How do you flush a toilet or check for functional drainage with air?

[Jerry Peck]

In our area we have one or two realtors widely stating that home inspectors carry generators so that they can perform inspections so that the realtor doesn't have to get the local power company to turn on the power. Just wondering how many inspectors carry the generators.

Terry,

That is your opportunity to turn it around and reply that "There are real estate agents who actually do their job and are a service to their clients ... those real estate agents make sure that all of the utilities are turned on so the home inspector can properly do their job.

Or, turn it around even differently like this:
There are real estate agents provide, and hook up, generators for the home inspection to save having to turn the electric on; provide and hook up a water truck with a pump for a supply of potable water; and provide and hook up a gas truck for any gas appliances. They think this saves them from having to have the utilities on - but hooking up to a generator, water truck, and a gas truck is not the same as being hooked up to the utilities.

Raise the expectations of what the agents are supposed to do - provide utilities so the house can be inspected. :cool:

[Don Burbach]

I always ask an agent if the utilities(water, gas, and electric) will be on for the inspection. Some agents say they will ask the listing agent. Listing agents, especially REO agents may not have seen the house in months(and maybe never). They are a notoriously poor source for answers of this information.

I remind agents that the house should be ready for an inspection. I sometimes get a blank stare before I ask if they 'would buy a used car if it didn't have gas'?

As for generators..... inspectors are taking a risk, by temporarily connecting a generator, and of course what about water and gas? Who would they be saving the trouble of doing it right? The listing agent? The buyer's agent? The seller?

Good luck!

[James Foy]

This may be ignorant, out of line, or just my lack of sleep typing:

1. Could or would any of you offer an "expanded" service where you ordered all the utilities on for hook-up costs, plus a service charge for your time?
2. I know that SCE offers a "clean and show" for landlords, but the gas company charges about $50 for a hookup, and water is $35 locally.
3. Does your area have "smart meters" ?

Obviously, buyers may balk at this, and it may show the agent up. I'm not sure if there's any advantage to attempting this or not. Obviously, it might just be easier to get the agent to have the utilities turned on, but with REO's (and many more on the way) the agents have a huge number of expenses trying to sell them.

[Stuart Brooks]

I did not notice a person's name or other contact information other than the "Request a Quote" on the Northern Virginia site. I did notice it is associated with INACHI. Seems a bit funny to me if you can't put a name, phone number, or email address up. Could it be a part-timer? Maybe like the fireman part-time home inspector from the Manassas area who declared a dining room receptacle on one of the 20A appliance circuits as a fire hazard, is suspected of inserting a leak detector dye into the heat pump refrigerant line that ruined the system, ran water in every fixture in the house for 2 hours to "check for leaks" even though the house was occupied by a family. Since they lived across the street and were friends, I'm pretty sure they took showers or baths every day, ran the dishwasher, washing machine, and flushed toilets.

[Garry Sorrells]

With the massive number of homes being offered for sale that are a result of foreclosure which have sat unoccupied for 2 or 3 years there has been created a large market that is entirely different from the past. With a large new market there bring change in methods and practices. The practices of the past will be changing to meet the market requirements.

The real question is not how many inspectors use generators to power up a house, but are they qualified by virtue of knowledge and experience. I would venture to say that less than 2% of those performing inspections have the knowledge and experience to start up, completely or fractionally, a winterized foreclosed home and return it to its winterized state. Much less than connect a generator to a property. I would also venture to say there is probably is less than 1/4% of inspectors actually offer the service, good or bad, at present.

An offering to energize the property is only as good as that persons ability. Testing the plumbing using pressurized air offers some information though incomplete in many respects. The information that the client receives, though limited, is beneficial.

Many discussions of topics revolve around risk and liability of the inspector. With the topic of generators it is just another level of risk for both the inspector and the client. Generator is something of a generic term. There are a few good generators and many bad ones. Equipment damage is a realistic concern. But that goes back to knowledge and experience.

Ultimately it boils down to extending offerings beyond minimal SOPs along wit the attached risks to both the inspector and the client. Not to mention a different pricing structure.

It is a new area that will have many using it as a marketing tool without thoroughly explaining the inherent risks and limitations. And many will be doing the client a disservice just as the use of a checklist report has become an apparent disservice. Hopefully it will sort itself out over time.
-

[Dave Hill]

Agree. That's the stupidest thing I've ever, ever heard of! Liability and cost alone make it "call another inspector" or "call me when the home is READY for inspection" reaction.

[Joseph Peake]

Here are at least two inspectords that claim they bring generators to the inspection.

Foreclosure Inspections Virginia Home Inspections -- Fairfax, Reston, Arlington, Leesburg, Ashburn, and more. (http://www.hiofnva.com/pages/66/294/default.aspx)

Guaranteed Home Inspections REALLY Guarantees The Work (http://ifimissitifixit.com/)

I quickly checked out the "guaranteed home inspection" guarantee.
hmmmmm...... marketing genius. work of art.:D

generators, tankers and the like - interesting additional service, but I doubt there'd be any takers if appropriate fees were charged.

[Raymond Wand]

Nacho Certified Generator Operator! CGO.

Wow what a marketing gimmick...$ Cha ching $ Cha ching $ :D

[Garry Blankenship]

Yea; my 20 KW generator, ( gotta be able to test those electric furnaces ), and 20 gallon gas can sits next to my temporary whole house water supply system in the back seat of my compact car :rolleyes:

[Rich Goeken]

In our area we have one or two realtors widely stating that home inspectors carry generators so that they can perform inspections so that the realtor doesn't have to get the local power company to turn on the power. Just wondering how many inspectors carry the generators.
I personally have watched two situations where "qualified" electricians attached "temporary" power to a building to test equipment. Case one the phasing was reversed and case two the lines were reversed. Both times stuff fried. Another time they lost the neutral, stuff fried in an interesting way. These were professionals and they had problems, would you really want to take the chance?
I don't want to call the Realtors air-heads, but.... if the hat fits....

[Rich Goeken]

How hard is it to connect 3 wires to a residential service from a generator? Those are some pretty dumb electricians.
Commercial buildings, and **** can happen. Was using it as an example, as others have pointed out, of why you may not want to carry a 10 KV unit, a water truck, and a propane (or NG equivalent) source around with you, to a full test test because the Realtor was too lazy to have those services activated for your inspection.

[Billy Stephens]

Commercial buildings, and **** can happen. Was using it as an example, as others have pointed out, of why you may not want to carry a 10 KV unit, a water truck, and a propane (or NG equivalent) source around with you, to a full test test because the .
Please,Please,Please Guys Step up and at least call and pay for the re-connect fee. Times is Hard for them Realtors with the Holidays and such.:rolleyes:
** Lexis Payments, Peta-cures, Hair Twirling, they be busy.

[James McKinley]

Unbelievable, and the second link posted is a guy in my area. Note that he does inspections according to the "standards of practice of the California Real Estate Inspection Association" yet hasn't even bothered to become a CREIA Certified Inspector. By the Cali B&P code he is required to follow the ASHI or CREIA SoP but why wouldn't you get the certification of a great organization. I bet he does 199.95 home inspections with free infrared too...

[Garry Sorrells]

A link to calculate power needed to size generator.
Play a little and you can get an idea how big a gen you would need.

Kohler Power: Sizing Calculator: Solutions: Residential Home Generators (http://www.kohlerpower.com/residential/solutions/sizingcalculator.htm?sectionNumber=13561&nodeNumber=1&contentNumber=103&brand=rgst&source=google&mat=exact&cat=unbranded&kwd=generator+sizing)

Have some fun.

[Jerry Peck]

A link to calculate power needed to size generator.
Play a little and you can get an idea how big a gen you would need.

Kohler Power: Sizing Calculator: Solutions: Residential Home Generators (http://www.kohlerpower.com/residential/solutions/sizingcalculator.htm?sectionNumber=13561&nodeNumber=1&contentNumber=103&brand=rgst&source=google&mat=exact&cat=unbranded&kwd=generator+sizing)

Have some fun.

I have a 12" long metal ruler I got from Generac at a seminar on generators, that ruler has some simple conversions on it, one of which is: "Quick Amp Calculation (Rule of Thumb)" for sizing generators.

It lists a calculation for 480 volt 3-phase, 240 volt 3-phase, 208 volt 3-phase, and 240 volt single phase. The 'Rule of Thumb' for calculating the generator size for 240 volt single phase is "kW * 4.0 = Amps @ 1.0 PF".

Using that formula, and say that you want to provide power to a house with a 150 amp service, which may actually draw around 70-90 amps with heat or a/c on with the stove, oven, and water heater on ... so I'll use 80 amps as a 'worst case' calculation, that gives kW * 4.0 = Amps @ 1.0 PF, or kW = Amps / 4.0 @ 1.0 PF, which would be kW = 80 amps / 4.0 @ 1.0 PF, which equals a 20 kW generator minimum. To be safe you should probably go with kW = 100 amps / 4.0 @ 1.0 PF, or a 25 kW generator.

That means you would want to carry around a 25 kW generator in your inspection vehicle. That 25 kW generator probably suck LPG at the rate of 3 gal/hr at idle and probably 6 gal/hr at half load ... which means a 3 hour inspection would use 20 gals of LPG at about $3-4 per gallon - would you add a % of the cost of the generator, cost for maintaining the generator, and the cost of the fuel used on to your inspection fee? :)

Garry,

How does that sizing match with that link's calculations? (I didn't try that link's calculations.)

[Raymond Wand]

One would not require a generator sized that large, even a 12kw at 50 amps would do nicely as you do not need to run all equipment at once.

I have this model Qc12
BaumaLight - QC Generators (http://www.baumalight.com/qc_generators.php)

Plenty big enough for my needs. Mind you you have to have a tractor to power it.

[Garry Blankenship]

Sizing a generator is both challenging and arbitrary. For the O.P. I sized the need @ 20KW in post # 19. Most electric furnaces have 5KW banks of heat. The most common is 15KW or three 5KW elements. Add another 5KW so you can check a heat pump, if present, simultaneously because that happens and for misc circuitry while tesing the furnace and you're at 20KW. I have a 15KW elec furnace w/ heat pump and went w/ a 10KW emergency generator. In power loss situations I abandon the entire HVAC system and get by w/ a gas fireplace w/ fan and have enough power to heat water and to power emergency equipment like broadband and the TV :) . As we have uncovered, trying to be portable with utility back up is impractical. Do-able, but what a fee it would be. Like Billy says, just call the utilitiy companies - - - way easier.

[Garry Sorrells]

Jerry,
Total Running Watts: 10995 W
Total Starting Volt-Amps: 26850 VA
Home Square Footage: 3,000 Square Ft
14 kW Residential Generator

DW,Ref, Microwave, Range, Water heater, Sump Pump, Elect Heater Strips, Central Air (3T), Furnance, Well Pump, Furnance Fan

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry,
Total Running Watts: 10995 W
Total Starting Volt-Amps: 26850 VA
Home Square Footage: 3,000 Square Ft
14 kW Residential Generator

DW,Ref, Microwave, Range, Water heater, Sump Pump, Elect Heater Strips, Central Air (3T), Furnance, Well Pump, Furnance Fan

Garry,

That's what that link calculates it out to be sized at?

Seems to be kinda small to me, being as a we had a slightly smaller house, all electric, in South Florida and had a 16 kW whole-house standby generator and with the water heater 'on', the clothes dryer running, the range and oven cooking food, along with lights, etc., and the 4 ton a/c had a difficult time starting up unless some things were shut down. Just my personal experience.

Of course, though, when we needed it, I shut the water heater off and only turned it on when needed, and used the clothes dryer when the water heater was off, did not run the a/c, and had cords going out to 4 neighbors so they could have some lights, microwave, and refrigerator. went through 200 gals of LPG in 4 days, power came back on with less than 10% left in the tanks, meaning the generator was about to shut down anyway.

200 gals of LPG at $2.50 gal (back then) put the cost for 4 days electric at $500 ... the neighbors all chipped in so our share was 'reasonable' for 4 days of electricity.

Some of the houses I used to inspect had 70 kW and larger generators hooked to natural gas, for those people ... cost was not a concern, neither was running out as it was metered- you know the gas company was smiling when those generators clicked on and started sucking gas through those meters.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry,
Total Running Watts: 10995 W
Total Starting Volt-Amps: 26850 VA
Home Square Footage: 3,000 Square Ft
14 kW Residential Generator

DW,Ref, Microwave, Range, Water heater, Sump Pump, Elect Heater Strips, Central Air (3T), Furnance, Well Pump, Furnance Fan

Garry,

That's what that link calculates it out to be sized at?

Seems to be kinda small to me, being as a we had a slightly smaller house, all electric, in South Florida and had a 16 kW whole-house standby generator and with the water heater 'on', the clothes dryer running, the range and oven cooking food, along with lights, etc., and the 4 ton a/c had a difficult time starting up unless some things were shut down. Just my personal experience.

Of course, though, when we needed it, I shut the water heater off and only turned it on when needed, and used the clothes dryer when the water heater was off, did not run the a/c, and had cords going out to 4 neighbors so they could have some lights, microwave, and refrigerator. went through 200 gals of LPG in 4 days, power came back on with less than 10% left in the tanks, meaning the generator was about to shut down anyway.

200 gals of LPG at $2.50 gal (back then) put the cost for 4 days electric at $500 ... the neighbors all chipped in so our share was 'reasonable' for 4 days of electricity.

Some of the houses I used to inspect had 70 kW and larger generators hooked to natural gas, for those people ... cost was not a concern, neither was running out as it was metered- you know the gas company was smiling when those generators clicked on and started sucking gas through those meters. :D

[Garry Sorrells]

Jerry,
That's what it came up with for what I listed. It is all about what you want/need to do. There are those that no not want to miss a beat and they have a gen setup to take over in 20 or 30 sec of an outage. But size and cost is not the issue. If you plan to power the neighborhood then you need a wooper of a gen as you found out, else it is about enough to get by or power what you are testing on an inspection.

Aaaaaaaaaaaa, the days before everyone had to have power all of the time. The horror of not having a TV or computer connection. Though it does become a problem for a long outage to maintain a frig and freezer, heat.

[Rich Goeken]

Jerry,
That's what it came up with for what I listed. It is all about what you want/need to do. There are those that no not want to miss a beat and they have a gen setup to take over in 20 or 30 sec of an outage. But size and cost is not the issue. If you plan to power the neighborhood then you need a wooper of a gen as you found out, else it is about enough to get by or power what you are testing on an inspection.

Aaaaaaaaaaaa, the days before everyone had to have power all of the time. The horror of not having a TV or computer connection. Though it does become a problem for a long outage to maintain a frig and freezer, heat.
Gentlemen,
Would it be prudent to install the generator only on "important" items and not the whole house? (Sorry Jerry) The installations that I have seen in NJ only power a few circuits through a subpanel, thus you do not need a 400 KW unit the size of the garage. In NJ, heat is important (not necessarily cooling), basic cooking, some lights, and hot water. Would be interested in seeing what others have seen in their inspections. How do you handle loading or shedding in your inspections?

[Raymond Wand]

Some people like their creature comforts. Can't imagine wanting to run the dishwasher during an outage along with other non essential luxuries.

During the big ice storm in 98 the most common complaint amongst rural residents was inability to get water from the well along with heat.

[Welmoed Sisson]

Being on well and septic, when we lose power we lose water. And now that our phones are all VOIP, no power means no phones. Our generator is 8KW and is set up to run just the bare minimum (well pump, oil furnace, fridge, freezer, phones, LP stove, and one or two light circuits. Oh, and the garage door openers. Our next door neighbors have a house half the size of ours, and just put in a 20KW generator that basically runs the entire house: AC, dryers, everything.

[Garry Blankenship]

Some people like their creature comforts. Can't imagine wanting to run the dishwasher during an outage along with other non essential luxuries.

During the big ice storm in 98 the most common complaint amongst rural residents was inability to get water from the well along with heat.

Copy that Raymond. The big decision is generator or not. If you decide yes, there are luxuries that can inexpensively piggy-back on the installation. When you do an emergency generator install you're typically faced w/ selecting those circuits you deem critical and isolating them from all others. There is a cost associated with that. I feel, ( felt ), it easier to put all branch circuits on emergency power and simply be mindful of what you use when the generator is running. Why bother isolating the dishwaher circuit when it draws nothing unless you turn it on. In my case the essentials are well pump and a fan for a gas fireplace; closely followed by freezer & fridge. With those driving the cost curve it was economically practical to go w/ 10KW which allows the luxury of heating water, lights, VOIP, broad-band & TV. Then no branch circuit discrimination is necessary. Lighting, D/W, stereo, toaster, receptacles, etc. all use no power, unless you turn them on. No reason I can see to circuit trace everything in a home to learn what load is on what circuit. Just leave the big loads in the utility panel then put any critical circuits and all branch circuits in the emergency panel. If someone can't be trusted to not use the D/W when on generator power, turn the breaker off.

[Benjamin Thompson]

...and had cords going out to 4 neighbors so they could have some lights, microwave, and refrigerator.
Wow, that sounds like a VERY SERIOUS code violation!!

[Jerry Peck]

Wow, that sounds like a VERY SERIOUS code violation!!

Nope.

"Temporary" wiring ... :) ... didn't even have that "temporary" wiring out for the allotted 90 days which is allotted for "temporary" wiring. Had 2x nailed to the to street to protect the wiring from vehicle traffic. :D

ALL was, of course, GFCI protected.

[Benjamin Thompson]

Nope.

"Temporary" wiring ... :) ... didn't even have that "temporary" wiring out for the allotted 90 days which is allotted for "temporary" wiring. Had 2x nailed to the to street to protect the wiring from vehicle traffic. :D

ALL was, of course, GFCI protected.

I'll have to remember to add that to my boilerplate. "Extension cord wiring to the _____ should be removed if it has been there 90 days":)

[Jerry Peck]

I'll have to remember to add that to my boilerplate. "Extension cord wiring to the _____ should be removed if it has been there 90 days":)

Mine were not "stapled in place" as those would be, thus mine were not being used to 'replace permanent wiring'. :D

[Rich Goeken]

Nope.

"Temporary" wiring ... :) ... didn't even have that "temporary" wiring out for the allotted 90 days which is allotted for "temporary" wiring. Had 2x nailed to the to street to protect the wiring from vehicle traffic. :D

ALL was, of course, GFCI protected.

Reminds me of a tool we used in the Army to put field wire up in the trees so you wouldn't trip over it. A long pole with a hook. Maybe you should get one of those for "next" time. :D

[Raymond Wand]

I'm curious to know the gauge of the extension cords?

[Glenn Duxbury]

Hi, ALL &

Well - my smile is the biggest it has been all week...

Way to keep it light & amusing, everyone !


Before I overlook saying - before I hit the Submit Reply button -


MERRY CHRISTMAS ONE & ALL !


Cheers

[Gunnar Alquist]

Our area loses power in the winter and I have a way to deal with it. I don't carry a generator. I have two 9 volt batteries and an inverter. Works great. :cool: