LIGHT FIXTURE UNDER SINK

[CHARLIE VAN FLEET]

hey guys

nice touch, but is is right--found this light bulb under sink--just haven't seen this--doesn't seem safe to me if something leaks--what do you think

cvf

[Dom D'Agostino]

Generally speaking, there is no "if something leaks" provision for luminaries.

[Rick Cantrell]

Only problem I see is a box of tissues near an uncovered bulb.

[Jim Robinson]

On a switch to turn on when it gets really cold? I know that folks here will leave their cabinet doors open when it gets really cold.

[CHARLIE VAN FLEET]

DOM

is there an answer there

cvf

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Although the picture is somewhat poorly lit and a bit blurry, I think I see what I believe to be a diverter to pull out sprayer, which if present, is ALWAYS expected to be a source of SOME water to the area below, as they are never sealed or gasketed when in use. A plumbing clean out location and a required to be servicable trap are not unlikely to be serviced. An illegal slip joint above the trap, i.e. the DIY too-short of a tail-piece extension is also not an unlikely to be damp or wet location. Condensation is an all-to-common every day occurance with uninsulated sinks, lavatories, etc. as with metalic pipe tail pieces (hot water in uninsulated or poorly insulated metal cold sink or tail piece drainage, for example, or summer reversed, cold water retained then drained from/through same). A rotted plastic ball in a cheapo pop-up assembly is an all-to-common occurance especially with bathroom lavatories (bathroom "sinks"). Leaking stops common. Even in florida (where potable plumbing distribution copper tube piping is rare) and incoming water supply temperatures in summer tend to be quite warm) cold metalic water pipes still sweat (condensation) in the summer.

Now a line-voltage unguarded shell in horizontal position and/or an unguarded edison type lamp (bulb) and a drop of wter on same while hot would likely shatter and expose live filaments. The look-alike actually covered LEDs and Compact Fl.s still get hot integral power supplies. unguarded luminaires exposed lamp holders in storage areas unwise. There are listed luminaires for installation in furniture and in cabinetry, this doesn't appear to be such. Back wall of cabinet appears also to be of a combustible variety (surface).

However, likely a moot discussion, since those battery powered plop on double-sided tape or screw mounted to anywhere, press to light, switch to light or remote controlled switch to light, mountable 'flash lights' and battery powered 'lamps' aren't really covered by the building codes. The UL standards for same and manufcturers instructions still apply regarding locations and safe use, which are generally attended use and location restricted based upon safety features which are or are not incorporated therein and the rated power source.

Actual NEC 'light fixtures' are and have been called "luminaires". Orientation restrictions of same for listed purpose/instructions, enclosed luminaire designed for damp location ceiling mount listed for wall mount, etc. limitation/warning listed labels should survive installation of listed luminaires. Wiring bays separation by studs from the plumbing.

Cabinetry are not closets. They are affixed surfaces and storage areas.

Finishing requirements to combustible or non combustible surfaces apply (open area to right for trap arm). Provisions for all installations including protections, from Chpter 1, 110 apply even to luminires, canopies, other outlets, and general equipment applicable to NEC.

HTH.

P.S. was this an RV, motor home, manufactured home, train car or boat?

[Billy Stephens]

The Lack of Feminine Hygiene Products is Disconcerting . :D

[Phillip Norman]

This seems to be an AC-powered Leviton 9860 Closet CFL (http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=9860-LHG&section=40414&minisite=10251).

I think a better location could have been chosen, less likely of wetting.

We should talk about closet lighting. So-dangerous bare incandescent bulbs still exist in closets. What do we do about them? They should not be grandfathered. What of NFPA 70, NEC Section 410.16 requirements, that should get porcelain bulb fixtures off store shelves? My neighborhood True Value hardware store stocked closet CFL for awhile, and no one but me bought them.

[Jim Port]

Phillip, if you are going to ask about banning items that could be used improperly there will be nothing left in the stores.

Closets are not the only place that keyless or pull chain fixtures are used. The NEC has no authority over what is sold in the stores.

[Dan Harris]

If they have an onyx sink it makes a nice night light :)

[Rich Goeken]

hey guys

nice touch, but is is right--found this light bulb under sink--just haven't seen this--doesn't seem safe to me if something leaks--what do you think

cvf

Charlie.... Does it come on when the door opens??? :D

[Raymond Wand]

Never mind about being wetted, the bulb can be damaged from storage, it therefore in my mind becomes a fire hazard, electrocution hazard.

Its not a big deal to state to client to have it terminated regardless of what the code says or doesn't.

[Speedy Petey]

Its not a big deal to state to client to have it terminated regardless of what the code says or doesn't.Personalty I think it is a big deal.
You guys know your words are near gospel to a potential buyer, and all you are doing is hurting sellers and jeopardizing home sales by reporting and inputting your opinions such things based on a "what if" scenario.

That is like suggesting keyless fixtures be removed from store shelves because someone might install one in a closet. I'm sorry, but that is just absurd.

[Raymond Wand]

Personalty I think it is a big deal.
You guys know your words are near gospel to a potential buyer, and all you are doing is hurting sellers and jeopardizing home sales by reporting and inputting your opinions such things based on a "what if" scenario.

That is like suggesting keyless fixtures be removed from store shelves because someone might install one in a closet. I'm sorry, but that is just absurd.

What if? I don't give a crap about the seller, they are not my client.

I can't believe you have that opinion considering you (supposedly) are an electrician. If you're not concerned with such installations as an electrician just what are your ethical standards to mention a safety hazard, let alone a standard of care?

[Jim Port]

Its not a big deal to state to client to have it terminated regardless of what the code says or doesn't.

What I hear you saying is "I don't care if this non-code issue costs someone money or sinks the sale." The level of paranoia over what could happen gets over the top sometimes.

[Speedy Petey]

What if? I don't give a crap about the seller, they are not my client. This is quite obvious in pretty much every HI report I have ever seen.




I can't believe you have that opinion considering you (supposedly) are an electrician. If you're not concerned with such installations as an electrician just what are your ethical standards to mention a safety hazard, let alone a standard of care?WTF are you talking about??
Are you saying because I don't see any code issues in the image above, and I don't see it as a "hazard", I have no ethics or standards?
Let's not go there sir.

[Raymond Wand]

Ya lets go there, you made the post about it not being a hazard, SIR!

[Speedy Petey]

I did. It is no more of a hazard as any other open lamp fixture within reach of a person. And it is not a code violation.

Once again, if you call this out you should be calling out every keyless in a crawl space, attic or basement as an "electrocution hazard".

[Raymond Wand]

I didn't say it was a code violation I said it was a hazard for the obvious reasons and that I didn't care whether it was a code violation or not. Not to mention the fact the bulb contains mercury and will contaminate the area if broken.

I guess thats why you're an electrician and not a home inspector, nor unable to appreciate a legal perspective on a standard of care expected by a prudent home inspector as repeatedly shown in case law.

I call it as I see it and at the end of the day my client is the one who determines my worth, not some arm chair electrician who wants to be a home inspector.

[Gregory Booth]

............based upon the things I usually see stuffed under sink cabinets, this is unquestionably a fire hazard. Don't need to cite code, just common sense......Greg.

[Speedy Petey]

I didn't say it was a code violation I said it was a hazard for the obvious reasons and that I didn't care whether it was a code violation or not. Not to mention the fact the bulb contains mercury and will contaminate the area if broken.I didn't know incandescent lamps held mercury. Even if it was a CFL, one lamp will NOT "contaminate" anything. More HI scare tactics.



I guess thats why you're an electrician and not a home inspector, nor unable to appreciate a legal perspective on a standard of care expected by a prudent home inspector as repeatedly shown in case law. No, sorry, I don't live my life in fear of being sued like you guys. I just do the right thing every day and I don't have to worry about those things.



I call it as I see it and at the end of the day my client is the one who determines my worth, not some arm chair electrician who wants to be a home inspector.Wow, did you get that wrong. No way in hell I would want the reputations most HI's have these days.
"Arm chair", huh? Nice try at an insult there little man.

[Raymond Wand]

Its obvious you only think you know what you talk about as far as home inspectors.

Secondly if you hold your opinion in high esteem you would post with your real name.

Thirdly you are unknowledgeable of the law.

Definition of Foreseeability


The facility to perceive, know in advance, or reasonably anticipate that damage or injury will probably ensue from acts or omissions.

In the law of Negligence, the foreseeability aspect of proximate cause—the event which is the primary cause of the injury—is established by proof that the actor, as a person of ordinary intelligence and circumspection, should reasonably have foreseen that his or her negligent act would imperil others, whether by the event that transpired or some similar occurrence, and regardless of what the actor surmised would happen in regard to the actual event or the manner of causation of injuries.

From the Supreme Court of Canada (likely its the American courts view as well)

Foreseeability

In R. v. Cote (1974), 51 D.L.R. (3d) 244 (S.C.C.), Dickson J., as he then was, stated at p. 252:

"It is not necessary that one foresee the 'precise concatenation of events'; it is enough to fix liability if one can foresee in a general way the class or character of injury which occurred:"

Pretend for a moment you are the home inspector and you saw that light fixture as in the photo. Do you think you would not be beholden by a standard of care and foreseeability that the fixture could become a hazard, by some home owner throwing something in under the cabinet?

Gregory hit the nail on the head, and I agree, I see stuff jammed in under counters routinely.

Fourth, now you minimize the effects of mercury! Its a CFL and not an incandescent.

You may want to research the hazards of mercury.

[Raymond Wand]

More reading ...

Cleaning Up a Broken CFL | Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs (CFLs) | US EPA (http://www2.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl)

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Settle down. Its likely an "insta bulb" or similar. Have seen these in multiple knock-off designs, including with LED or compt fl. looking edison lamps as well. Some with motion sensors, some with pull chains, some with remote switches (controls) nd some with push buttons.One (of many) example... https://www.instabulb.com/index.jsp This may be "as seen on TV", or not.IOW it hsn't been confirmed that this is a hard-wired anything.

[Garry Sorrells]

Life is just one hazard after another. You are subjected to hazards before birth and every second after birth. Cabinet light even if st is a 1.5v plastic LED enclosed in plastic can be a hazard. Every set of stairs are a hazard. Does the light pose an immediate threat to life? No. Can something happen? Yes. No mater what type it is. If someone does not like the light for any reason, they can remove it. 30 second job. Getting your shorts in a wad over it is not appropriate response. Granted some HI and Code Inspectors seem to believe they are on a calling from God to protect the worked from themselves by extrapolating how they interpretate code and conditions. Some find ego gratification for the number of death scenarios they can come up with in every inspection as well as how they can puff up the potential hazards. Like I said, we live in a world of hazards. Some people are clueless because they seem to believe the government will protect them or if anything happens it is the responsibility of some one other than themselves. If for no other reason than self protection (liability) the light is worth mentioning in a report, but only a short note of caution.

HG is right. Settle down. Listen to his voice of reason.

[Raymond Wand]

Voice of reason? Now that is an oxymoron.

[Charles Lander II]

Yeah... I fail to see how this, while perhaps not a code violation, would somehow not be worth mentioning. My client is paying me to point out anything with the potential of being or becoming an issue, not just what's at code or not. Why is this uncomprehensible, or seemingly alarmist? Wouldn't you want to know? Would you appreciate the information, or somehow think the inspection was substandard? Personally, if I paid for an inspection, and found this afterward, and it wasn't mentioned, I'd be very unhappy!

[John Kogel]

This got out of hand when somebody said this amateur add on device could kill a sale. :confused: Since when has a light fixture caused clients to walk? Only on this board, in fictitious situations.

How long will it take to remove the fixture and install a cover over the j-box?

That is what my report would say, except it would be "have a qualified electrician remove the light fixture and install a cover."

I agree with Ray and a few others here. It is a hazardous installation because people cram paper products, recyclable plastics, plastic bags, bottles and utensils under the sink. It is no place to have a light bulb.

[Jim Port]

John K, I have seen the anxiety caused by home inspection reports causing the owner to have "fixed" something that should not have even been mentioned because they were afraid of loosing the sale. Homeowners have spent a lot of money unnecessarily to preserve a sale based on the fear factors from HI reports. Even when told the reports were wrong.

[Vern Heiler]

Did anyone see the repair coupling on the hot water riser? My guess is the plumbing is on an exterior wall and they have had freeze problems before. I would suggest installing a cage to protect the bulb and inform of possible freeze hazard. As far as wetting hazard, junction boxes and switches are installed under sinks all of the time for garbage disposals and dishwashers.

[John Kogel]

Jim I see where you are coming from. It is important when we report to use the right wording so that the minor annoyance doesn't become a major issue. Right.

An electrician told me about an inspection of his own house. His wife was in tears because all their outlets were old fashioned and all their windows had tacky aluminum frames. :)

Vern, I suggest that box was originally put below the sink there for a future garbage disposer, and Mr. Handy just turned it into a light. Maybe so he could keep track of his under- the-sink collection of junk.

That fitting is a tee for a pipe out thru the wall. See the shadow?

[Rich Goeken]

Gee Charlie.... after all this yelling and screaming I still didn't find out if the light went on when the door was opened! :D

[Vern Heiler]

Vern, I suggest that box was originally put below the sink there for a future garbage disposer, and Mr. Handy just turned it into a light. Maybe so he could keep track of his under- the-sink collection of junk.

That fitting is a tee for a pipe out thru the wall. See the shadow?

Nope, didn't catch the shadow:o . As much as I dislike working under a sink I still think there was more wanted than just light.

[CHRIS KRUSE]

I've never seen this before. I doubt an electrican got paid to install it.

" Unprofessional installation of light fixture noted under sink. Recommend removal by a qualified person"
It is that simple...then deposit the check and sleep soundly..;)