Home Inspector (These types give you all a bad name)

[Carl Morello]

I recently sold my out of state home and the buyer had an inspector conduct an evaluation. I wonder what he charged. Here's some highlights: (I had to rebut a large majority of the issues he raised to the agent to share with the buyer)

1. He states that the kitchen didn't have any GFCI. Well, 100% of the outlets in the kitchen are GFCI protected. Did he know that any outlet downstream of a GFCI is also protected? Did he even test any of them? Did he look for a GFCI breaker?

2. He states the range hood was a recirculating type and vented into the home. Did he open the cabinet above the range and look at the ductwork?? Did he go outside and look at the exterior wall where the vent exits??

3. He failed to open the panel door of the main electrical panel and notice that I hadn't labeled all the breakers. Because, to be honest, I was fully ready to have to check every circuit and label. Nothing mentioned at all.

4. He made a comment that I had rubber hoses on the washer and needed to change them to stainless steel braided hoses. (How many of you make that recommendation) However, if he knew anything about washer hoses, he would have noticed that my hoses were the Floodchek brand. Heavy duty, 20 year warranty. If you are going to make recommendations about washer hoses, stop recommending stainless steel braided. They aren't much better than the standard black hoses. I've written a paper on this topic and the failure of the black and steel braided hoses. I will send the pdf to whoever e-mails me at carlm@sequoiains.com See quality differences in the attached picture. I don't typically endorse products, but when I come across a "cadillac" we share it.


A short excerpt from the paper:

Water damage caused by leaking appliances is one of the top five causes of home insurance claims, according to the Institute for Business and Home Safety. More than half the water damage claims related to washing machines were from broken water supply hoses. These incidents are also very costly, with the average claim running to more than $6,000.





Standard black washer hoses are made of rubber tubing with a polyester reinforcement lining. (Fig. 3) The metal inserts at the coupling end are rolled and stamped from thin sheets of copper alloy. Most failures occur at the end of the hose, where the metal insert comes into contact with the tubing. (Fig. 2) Failures generally occur for one of the following reasons:
Razoring — The metal insert has a very sharp edge which is in direct contact with the rubber tube. This edge becomes progressively thinner and sharper as it is worn away by the movements of the water and by the effects of electrolysis. In a process called “razoring,” the motion of the washing machine causes the metal edge to rub repeatedly against the inside of the hose, cutting it gradually from the inside out.
Stress Fractures — The metal insert is attached to the hose by a ferrule, or ring, which is crimped tightly to hold the pieces together. The crimping can cause a stress fracture in the hose, which is then subject to failure, especially as the rubber ages and begins to deteriorate.
Rusting — Corrosion (rusting) of the metal fitting can cause failure in two ways. First, as the thin metal fitting corrodes, it becomes jagged and rough and cuts into the hose as the washing machine operates. Water can leak between the hose and its outer covering, forming a bubble, a critical warning sign of imminent failure. (Fig. 1) Though a bubble may appear anywhere along the line, most breaks occur at the point where the metal fitting meets the rubber tube. Second, as the fitting continues to corrode, it can become so weak that it may eventually break apart.

Braided stainless steel hoses (sometimes called “steel-clad” hoses) were designed as a reliable replacement for standard black hoses, but they, too, have been problematic. They have proven to be not much stronger than standard rubber hoses, and they are also subject to failures related to the materials from which they are fabricated.
Crimping — A braided stainless steel hose consists of a plastic or rubber tube covered with a braided steel sheath, which is sometimes protected with a thin nylon coating. (Fig. 3) Because of the variety of materials used, a very tight crimp is required to fasten the metal fitting securely to the hose. During the manufacturing process, this tight crimping can damage the hose by cutting into the rubber. Once the product is installed on a washing machine, the action of the water and the movements of the machine can make the cuts worse, leading to eventual failure.
Corrosion — The stainless steel braided cover can oxidize when exposed to chloramine, a chemical increasingly popular in water treatment. Under these conditions, the stainless steel braided cover can weaken, fray, and even break, so that it can no longer provide strength to the hose.

FLOODCHEK™
WASHING MACHINE HOSES
Sequoia Insurance recommends that all washing machines be fitted with high-quality Floodchek™ hoses that are engineered for durability and reliability. Floodchek hoses are guaranteed for 20 years against failure due to defective design, materials, or workmanship.
http://www.floodchek.com/wp-content/themes/floodchek/img/new/hoses.png
The Floodchek hose features a sturdy brass insert that is rounded at the end to prevent its cutting the hose from the inside. And because the brass is thicker, the fitting can withstand crimping along the whole length of the insert, which allows the pressure of the crimp to be distributed over a larger area, thus preventing a single pressure point that can damage the hose. The hose is flared at the fitting end, providing ample space around the end of the insert, which also reduces the risk of damage inside the hose. The Floodchek hose is twice as thick as conventional hoses and is extra sturdy for long wear. The use of better-quality brass discourages electrolysis. According to Floodchek, there has not yet been a single reported failure of Floodchek hose in the tens of thousands of installations done since 1989. More information is at Washing Machine Hoses Manufactured Proudly In The USA by Floodchek Corporation (http://www.floodchek.com).

[Nick Ostrowski]

Not quite sure what can be said here in response. But it sounds like you are a disgruntled home owner who is ready to lump all HIs in the same category as the HI with whom you don't happen to agree.

Speaking for myself, nobody within this profession regardless of what they do or say gives me a bad name. I stand on my own merits. Take your objections up with the other inspector.

[Dan Harris]

Not quite sure what can be said here in response. But it sounds like you are a disgruntled home owner who is ready to lump all HIs in the same category as the HI with whom you don't happen to agree.

Speaking for myself, nobody within this profession regardless of what they do or say gives me a bad name. I stand on my own merits. Take your objections up with the other inspector.

Heck I thought it was a new member that could not make it in the HI business, and now selling washer hoses. :)

[Egbert Jager]

Not quite sure what can be said here in response. But it sounds like you are a disgruntled home owner who is ready to lump all HIs in the same category as the HI with whom you don't happen to agree.
I thought it was a spammer and assume the post will be pulled soon.

[Carl Morello]

Folks, I'm a professional engineer and have been involved with home construction all my life. I work in the insurance safety field. My point was that this type of inspector gives you all a bad name. I respect all of you! I get a lot out of the website. But this guy was clueless. My point on the washer hoses was to educate. Don't recommend stainless steel if there is a better product out there. We've published a risk management paper on this topic. I will gladly send to you if you email me at carlm@sequoiains.com (carlm@sequoiains.com)
I posted our papers on the dangers of Zinsco and Federal Pacific panels and have sent our paper to many of you.
I'm not a disgruntled homeowner, but going through the selling process is a pain, exacerbated by the fact the inspector hired by the buyer was clueless based on a few of the issues I listed. This thread was in the category "venting frustrations" and I posted on the correct thread.
I just hope that most of you don't do the things that this guy did.

[Raymond Wand]

I'd be the first to tell ya there are clueless inspectors regardless what association they belong to or whether or not they are licenced.

Carl, I will take you up on your offer, please email me the risk management paper. This is not the first time I have heard of metal braided hoses not being what they are cracked up to be.

inforwhis@gmail.com

Thanks.

[Garry Sorrells]

Carl,
I grasped where you were coming from with your post. As frustrating as it may be, the clueless are all around us. They are not restricted to any one field. The fact that the buyer selected one may be a reflection on the buyer, maybe not. Maybe it is a CA thing;).

I would think most HI will site the hose issue, though it is in the area of a comment/recommendation and not a defect , failure, service life or needed repair. Most will just to reiterate what an insurance appraiser/agent would recommend/require for a policy.

[John Kogel]

I'd be the first to tell ya there are clueless inspectors regardless what association they belong to or whether or not they are licenced. Tell us agin, Raymond!


This is not the first time I have heard of metal braided hoses not being what they are cracked up to be.

:D That was a pun and I agree. We see rubber hoses every day that are 10 years old and older and may be a better product than a cheap new braided hose made in some other country.

[Harry Janssen]

If clients,home buyers would do some home work,before hiring an inspector,about qualifications,experience,etc.we would hear less stories about bad home inspectors.
People get what they pay for,as the old saying goes.

[Darren Miller]

If clients,home buyers would do some home work,before hiring an inspector,about qualifications,experience,etc.we would hear less stories about bad home inspectors.
People get what they pay for,as the old saying goes.

You got that right!
I booked an inspection and the guy had my quote from the get go. He e-mails me 2 days before the inspection and asks... ready for this... for me to lower my price by $250 dollars. Two hundred and fifty dollars!
I emailed him back and said 'I just removed your inspection from my schedule'.

$250.00!!!!

[Carl Morello]

Carl,
I grasped where you were coming from with your post. As frustrating as it may be, the clueless are all around us. They are not restricted to any one field. The fact that the buyer selected one may be a reflection on the buyer, maybe not. Maybe it is a CA thing;).

I would think most HI will site the hose issue, though it is in the area of a comment/recommendation and not a defect , failure, service life or needed repair. Most will just to reiterate what an insurance appraiser/agent would recommend/require for a policy.

Garry,
House was in CT. I guess what was most frustrating was that he missed the non-labeled breakers on the main panel, something I was fully expecting to have in the report, but couldn't identify whether the outlets were GFCI or the range was vented to the exterior. The washer hose thing just cracked me up because the washer wasn't staying with the house and the hoses were not staying either. But there was so much more that he said that was just poor. Like I said in a reply post earlier, I love reading what you guys post on here. I pick up on a lot of technical things. There’s always a few smelly apples in the basket.

[Ken Rowe]

The hoses you pictured sure look like rubber hoses to me.

[Garry Sorrells]

You got that right!
I booked an inspection and the guy had my quote from the get go. He e-mails me 2 days before the inspection and asks... ready for this... for me to lower my price by $250 dollars. Two hundred and fifty dollars!
I emailed him back and said 'I just removed your inspection from my schedule'.

$250.00!!!!

So he wanted you to pay him to do the inspection $200-$250= -$50 :D:o :bounce::bounce::bounce:

The client like many people look at price and not value. A HI is in sales and in sales you either sell on price or you sell on value. Emails (writing ) makes it difficult to determine what the buyer's objections are. So having a conversation/presentation with the buyer will allow you determine the objections and overcome them. I think you may have allowed Ego to get involved. You felt insulted, but did you understand why he was asking for the reduction? Not lecturing you, just food for thought for the next time it happens.....and it will.

[Lon Henderson]

Folks, I'm a professional engineer and have been involved with home construction all my life. I work in the insurance safety field. My point was that this type of inspector gives you all a bad name. I respect all of you! I get a lot out of the website. But this guy was clueless. My point on the washer hoses was to educate. Don't recommend stainless steel if there is a better product out there. We've published a risk management paper on this topic. I will gladly send to you if you email me at carlm@sequoiains.com (carlm@sequoiains.com)
I posted our papers on the dangers of Zinsco and Federal Pacific panels and have sent our paper to many of you.
I'm not a disgruntled homeowner, but going through the selling process is a pain, exacerbated by the fact the inspector hired by the buyer was clueless based on a few of the issues I listed. This thread was in the category "venting frustrations" and I posted on the correct thread.
I just hope that most of you don't do the things that this guy did.
I have done a couple of inspections over the years for "professional engineers" who left me wondering exactly what kind of engineer they were. Their ignorance was profound and alarming. Apparently engineers are like any other profession, some are clueless or worse. So when I hear some engineer telling me about how incompetent HIs are, I not so gently, tell him/her to clean up their own profession and when they have finished that, call me up and we'll work on the HI profession.

[Carl Morello]

I have done a couple of inspections over the years for "professional engineers" who left me wondering exactly what kind of engineer they were. Their ignorance was profound and alarming. Apparently engineers are like any other profession, some are clueless or worse. So when I hear some engineer telling me about how incompetent HIs are, I not so gently, tell him/her to clean up their own profession and when they have finished that, call me up and we'll work on the HI profession.


Lon, Touche good comment. Every group has their share of clueless ones. I shared that I am a PE to give some credentials to what I was sayng as I was accused of being a disgruntled homeowner and a spammer

[Carl Morello]

The hoses you pictured sure look like rubber hoses to me.

Ken, yes they are rubber hoses, but look at the thickness of the rubber. However, the difference is in the connection. As an insurance carrier, we recommend replacement of those black hoses and braided hoses every five years, unless the hoses get inspected for signs of failure. If they want to spend a little more money, we encourage the Floodchek hoses, 20 year warranty. I've had some responses to my offer to send our 4 page report titled "Washing Machine Hoses: A Disaster Waiting to Happen" Just email me at carlm@sequoiains.com

Here's the main differences between the three types and the causes of failure:

Standard black washer hoses are made of rubber tubing with a polyester reinforcement lining. The metal inserts at the coupling end are rolled and stamped from thin sheets of copper alloy. Most failures occur at the end of the hose, where the metal insert comes into contact with the tubing. Failures generally occur for one of the following reasons:
Razoring — The metal insert has a very sharp edge which is in direct contact with the rubber tube. This edge becomes progressively thinner and sharper as it is worn away by the movements of the water and by the effects of electrolysis. In a process called “razoring,” the motion of the washing machine causes the metal edge to rub repeatedly against the inside of the hose, cutting it gradually from the inside out.
Stress Fractures — The metal insert is attached to the hose by a ferrule, or ring, which is crimped tightly to hold the pieces together. The crimping can cause a stress fracture in the hose, which is then subject to failure, especially as the rubber ages and begins to deteriorate.
Rusting — Corrosion (rusting) of the metal fitting can cause failure in two ways. First, as the thin metal fitting corrodes, it becomes jagged and rough and cuts into the hose as the washing machine operates. Water can leak between the hose and its outer covering, forming a bubble, a critical warning sign of imminent failure. (Fig. 1) Though a bubble may appear anywhere along the line, most breaks occur at the point where the metal fitting meets the rubber tube. Second, as the fitting continues to corrode, it can become so weak that it may eventually break apart.


Braided stainless steel hoses (sometimes called “steel-clad” hoses) were designed as a reliable replacement for standard black hoses, but they, too, have been problematic. They have proven to be not much stronger than standard rubber hoses, and they are also subject to failures related to the materials from which they are fabricated.







Crimping — A braided stainless steel hose consists of a plastic or rubber tube covered with a braided steel sheath, which is sometimes protected with a thin nylon coating. (Fig. 3) Because of the variety of materials used, a very tight crimp is required to fasten the metal fitting securely to the hose. During the manufacturing process, this tight crimping can damage the hose by cutting into the rubber. Once the product is installed on a washing machine, the action of the water and the movements of the machine can make the cuts worse, leading to eventual failure.
Corrosion — The stainless steel braided cover can oxidize when exposed to chloramine, a chemical increasingly popular in water treatment. Under these conditions, the stainless steel braided cover can weaken, fray, and even break, so that it can no longer provide strength to the hose.

The Floodchek hose features a sturdy brass insert that is rounded at the end to prevent its cutting the hose from the inside. And because the brass is thicker, the fitting can withstand crimping along the whole length of the insert, which allows the pressure of the crimp to be distributed over a larger area, thus preventing a single pressure point that can damage the hose. The hose is flared at the fitting end, providing ample space around the end of the insert, which also reduces the risk of damage inside the hose. The Floodchek hose is twice as thick as conventional hoses and is extra sturdy for long wear. The use of better-quality brass discourages electrolysis. According to Floodchek, there has not yet been a single reported failure of Floodchek hose in the tens of thousands of installations done since 1989. More information is at Washing Machine Hoses Manufactured Proudly In The USA by Floodchek Corporation (http://www.floodchek.com)

[Rick Vernon]

Lon, Touche good comment. Every group has their share of clueless ones. I shared that I am a PE to give some credentials to what I was sayng as I was accused of being a disgruntled homeowner and a spammer

I would be interested in knowing how long the inspector has been in business. I would think that he won't be in it much longer as bad inspectors primarily give themselves a bad name.

I lost an inspection to a guy that was $80 less than I charge. Turns out the client was not happy with the 1 hour 1 page Word Document report and the missed items.

I did learn something about hoses from this post and that's my primary reason for belonging to this site.

[Ken Rowe]

You honestly think the home inspector who called out your rubber hoses should have been able to tell the difference between your special long lasting hoses and any other rubber hose just by the diameter of the rubber? Not likely...he glance at the hoses, saw they were rubber and recommended changing them.

[Raymond Wand]

I would have thought the coloring of the house would have alerted an astute inspector that they were not your run-of-the-mill rubber hoses. Perhaps the inspector was colour blind.

These Floodchek hoses are made from from materials used in hydraulic hose material.

[Darrel Hood]

This is another example of a person who is not a home inspector and does not know the parameters that define a home inspection critiquing an inspector against imagined criteria. The HI he is complaining about failed to mention that breakers are unlabeled and did not know what brand of rubber hose was in use. These are not big items. The largest error the inspector made was not successfully establishing his client's expectations.

[Jim Robinson]

I like the concept, and have added Floodcheck into my report template. One thing that throws me off is that their web site touts the 20 year warranty, and bashes the other companies warranty because they only pay to replace the hoses. Yet, that is all the Floodcheck warranty covers as well. If it's been 20 years or more without a failure, I think they could increase their marketing clout by covering damage caused. As we all know, the cost of the hose is not significant in a damage situation. However, it's probably too difficult to cover that because people would claim they had the hoses in use when they probably didn't.

Have any of you seen the movie Clerks? The start of this thread really reminded me of the Chewlies Gum guy in the store early in the movie.

[Lon Henderson]

[QUOTE=Carl Morello;222787]
The inspector seen a crack in the foundation and recommended a structural engineer be hired to better assess. That is it. Visual inspection, get someone else to figure it out, collect the money and walk away. Now this trickle effect cause the bank to red flag that house. Any one else intent on buying that house will now have to pay for it "cash" because the bank will not lend the money.
I, as an inspector pay special attention on the deal breakers, 'cause face it that is what the clients are really after, "am I buying a money pit" or "am I getting my money's worth" etc...

Love to read what you have to say, whether I agree or not I always learn from you out there. Thanks.....

So.........why didn't your son get a structural engineer's report on this minor crack and resolve the question? It seems like your son let a one inch speed bump stop the car......:frusty:

[Raymond Wand]

Lon,

I think you misquoted Carl, and you meant to quote Gilbert?

[Gilbert]

[QUOTE=Gilbert;223007]

So.........why didn't your son get a structural engineer's report on this minor crack and resolve the question? It seems like your son let a one inch speed bump stop the car......:frusty:

He spoke to an engineer on the phone and it sounds like he may be able help, without digging up the foundation. If he believes it's a minor crack he will call it that. He also said the banks prefer reading engineer's reports over home inspectors and if he tells them it's not a problem they usually accept his findings (but not always).
Engineer's are pricey but sometimes worth it. In this case his fee for assessing this crack is higher then the whole house inspection cost.

Thanks I appreciate your imput and love your choice of icon. lol

[Ken Rowe]

I would have thought the coloring of the house would have alerted an astute inspector that they were not your run-of-the-mill rubber hoses. Perhaps the inspector was colour blind.

These Floodchek hoses are made from from materials used in hydraulic hose material.

Red, blue, green or black the inspector called these hoses what they are..."rubber hoses". The Floodchek hoses may be the best hoses ever made but they are rubber hoses. Inspectors are taught rubber hoses are bad, thus they get called out. Inspectors are expected to identify problems or potential problems. We aren't expected to know that one particular brand is better than any other.
I guess what I'm saying is I know of no standards of practice that requires the identification of brand of washing machine hoses and this is a case of one brand of rubber hoses being better than another brand.

[Scott Patterson]

Lon, Touche good comment. Every group has their share of clueless ones. I shared that I am a PE to give some credentials to what I was sayng as I was accused of being a disgruntled homeowner and a spammer

My niece is a PE and does not know squat about residential construction or defect reconignation. Her education and training are in environmental engeering. Now if you want to talk about water and air pollution she's your go to girl!

[Raymond Wand]

... The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely! The coloring of the hose is a dead give away. Experience counts and from the OP I came to the conclusion the inspector may have wanted to impart he was thorough when in fact his thoroughness left a lot to be desired.

If in doubt perhaps he should of asked if the units where staying with the property because his findings would be irrelevant regardless of the colouring.

[Lon Henderson]

Lon,

I think you misquoted Carl, and you meant to quote Gilbert?

Yeah, somehow I mangled that.

Gilbert, I agree that PEs can cost a bit, but in your son's case, it sounds like money well spent (either way...he gets a letter saying no problem or learns what he has to do to remedy a problem). I've emailed pics of problems to a PE I l know, to get a preliminary opinion. Then, the client can make a slightly more informed decision on whether to risk his money on a formal opinion. Your son should ask if the PE will do the same.

:focus: I don't think I've ever seen this super duper rubber hose in a house before, nor in a store, so I was unfamiliar with it until this thread. I've only seen one braided steel hose that appeared to be containing an aneurism, so I know of one that did its job. Nothing is perfect, but somethings are better than others and braided steel hoses, and presumably these Floodchek hoses are better than the black rubber ones.

[John Kogel]

Since we're all over the map on this thread, I would like to say ...... my SOP does not require me to report the lack of a legend or directory on the electrical panel.
New construction, we almost always see a complete directory, so the local AHJ's are requiring it now, but not so much in the past. Old houses, the directory is often obliterated, wrong, or was never filled in.

The inspector may very well have seen this missing directory, but did not deem that to be a significant defect.

[Eric Barker]

4. He made a comment that I had rubber hoses on the washer and needed to change them to stainless steel braided hoses.

In my view, saying that the hoses NEED to be changed is off the wall. If mentioned at all it should be nothing more than a recommendation as an after closing / weekend project. Report comments like that muddy up the waters and can inundate the client with information that makes it difficult to sort out the important stuff from the trivial.

[Ken Rowe]

In my view, saying that the hoses NEED to be changed is off the wall. If mentioned at all it should be nothing more than a recommendation as an after closing / weekend project. Report comments like that muddy up the waters and can inundate the client with information that makes it difficult to sort out the important stuff from the trivial.


I'm guessing the OP paraphrased what was written in the report, substituting the word suggest with need. Many disgruntled sellers tend to do this. :boink:

[Jim Starkey]

Here in Texas the washer and dryer almost never stay with the house and so the hoses most likely would not either so I wouldn't even mention them. Just because you have duct work for the vent hood doesn't mean they moved the door that diverts the air into the duct. I have written up many o vent hood that had a vent flue plumbed outside but the door that makes it go from venting inside to outside wasn't removed or put in correctly so it still vented indoors. Did you check to see if that was the case?

Did you use a tester to test your GFCI devices? Sometimes they are there but don't work properly.